♪ wild thing, you make my heart sing ♪ >> we'll have nothing to say about that. yet. i'll have something to say later. how did he do on the scoreboard? that's in the "hardball" sideshow. let's start with how president obama is doing. chuck todd is nbc's political director and chief white house correspondent. roger simon writes for politico. gentleman, let's take a look at the first thing. here's president obama with david letterman last night. let's see what we can learn. it's sort of his scorecard he's doing right now. let's listen. >> in terms of the health care, what is it i don't understand about this? >> well, why don't you help me through, dave, where -- what's been puzzling you, lately. >> if i'm not feeling well -- >> right. >> i go to the cbs nurse. >> yeah.

everybody should have a cbs nurse. and i'm sure the nurse is a wonderful person. >> well, there you go. let's take a look right now with chuck and with roger. here's the latest nbc poll on this question. has the president been doing the right amount of media exposure? i'm not sure people are that sophisticated, but they have an answer. 54%. a majority says, yes, he's got it about right in terms of what shows he does, where he makes the points, how much television time he's got. too much, only 34%. only a third. and 9% say too little. well, that's not too many. chuck, can we go by the public's estimate of the president's "q" rating and how well he's doing in terms of media saturation? because it sounds like they like what they're seeing, even though he does all the sunday shows. it adds up to about right. >> i think this reinforces the point the white house is making, in that this idea of overexposure is a creation of

the amtrak corridor. and what i describe as the amtrak corridor, the new york to washington crowd. not just the beltway, but the new york crowd and the d.c. crowd who believe that they invented the media. and in many cases, look, the media, 90% of media's created out of those two cities, but the fact is, it is -- i think they look at this and the public obviously gets this stuff from 20 different places. and that's why the white house says it does these things so incrementally. and they feel like they can't just do one or two shows and think they're reaching everybody they want to reach. that they have to do it this way. now, that said, it's my understanding the president, himself is a little exhausted from interviews. and i have a feeling he may put the kibosh on more of this, at least in the next couple of weeks. >> roger, what do you think? it seems to me the president has a plot, a strategy. he's carrying it out. no matter what we say here, no matter what these numbers show, though they seem to be to his benefit now, somebody is ramrodding this.

somebody in the white house, a group of people are saying to the president, more, more, more. and he's doing it. >> more, absolutely. the white house have vacuums. if you don't fill the vacuum with your words and pictures, someone else is going to fill it. the bad guys from your party are going to fill it. stand in the spotlight. suck up the oxygen. you get your message out. the other side is still going to get its message out. you can't control talk radio, talk tv, but you will at least get your message out. if david axelrod believes in anything, it is repetition. you repeat and you repeat and you repeat until people get it. >> so the more -- just to get back to you, chuck, the more that the guys on the other team, it's fair to call them that. people like glenn beck and rush limbaugh and their imitators out there, the more that they beat the war drums, the more this president has to get out there and meet them in the field. is that the feeling? is that what you're saying? >> yes. just look at the facts.

when the president wasn't out in front on health care, and this is not about glenn beck or rush limbaugh, this is a fact that when he allowed the democrats in congress to lead the charge on health care, the public was confused. congress wasn't taking a leadership role, congressional democrats weren't, let alone your opposition was able to fill the vacuum. so it's not just about dealing with your opposition and filling the -- you want to take away the oxygen from supporters, because, frankly, nancy pelosi, you look at our poll, harry reid, these are not the people that the white house wants to have out in front for the democratic party either. >> i really think this is getting back to high school or grade school in a sense. roger, is this like if the kids are -- the mischievous bad kids are out there spreading the word around you on twitter or online somehow, you've got to get out there and match the story. you've got to get out there and be in their face. >> absolutely. any politician who is attacked and doesn't respond and doesn't respond quickly, mike dukakis, john kerry --

>> i just wonder if this is responding, if he's giving us good answers to letterman's questions. here's an entertainment show asking entertaining questions, but letterman's in tune. let's see how well he's doing with getting some answers. here's the president. >> there's an awful lot of misinformation that gets floated around and that's what we have to fight through. that's why i end up having to be on the dave letterman show to -- you know. >> but the -- i'll tell you, the one idea i would like to see, right away, are these death panels. if we could get them in place immediately. >> well, there's the question. i guess we could do the satire chuck, and you can make fun of the opponent, but a lot of people have in their head right now the notion they're going to have their health care rationed, there's going to be protocols to keep them from getting organ transplants. there are going to be encouragements for older people

to think about end-of-life decisions they may not want to make them. there's a sense that it will raise tax money, cost us stuff we don't want to want. there is a lot of bad static about these proposals. they're not doing as well. let's look at these numbers. here's a new poll, 45% said they approve of the president's job on health care, but 46% don't. so on the substance -- here's the good news, i suppose, on the republican side. 3-1, people disapprove what they're pushing. but fortunately for the president, they're not pushing anything. and look at this one, by the way. 37% said it will be the republicans fault if nothing gets done. but i'm not sure that adds up to a victory. if nothing gets done and the people blame the republicans for nothing getting done, does that help the president when he gets a big "l" next to his name for his first year in office? >> no. that's why you see this white house saying, we've got to do whatever it takes to get something passed. they believe in a couple things. number one, when they can clear health care out of the way. health care's getting in the way. they can't get energy legislation passed. they're not going to get energy legislation passed this year. because health care's getting in the way.

they're struggling on afghanistan. why? health care's getting in the way. they're strugglinging getting the message across to the country that they are focused on trying to create jobs. that's what they're saying. but right now, that focus is missing. why? because they're focused on health care. so they've got to figure out how to clear the decks. you're right. i think they believe this. when they sign a piece of legislation that is called health care reform and we can debate the -- let's not worry about the details of it, but when it says the words health care reform and the president does that signing ceremony, he will get a small boost in the ratings, but more important, it clears the deck so he can start basically dealing with these other issues, afghanistan, which is getting pushed on him, and that's going to be -- you think the politics of health care are difficult, you haven't seen anything yet when it comes to afghanistan. and then there's -- >> that's disturbing. that's disturbing. i'm trying to figure out why you're saying this a certain way. but it's disturbing if people get the idea, if i get the idea, it disturbs me that the president is putting off a life and death decision about our

truth complement in afghanistan because he's focused on his pet project, health care. i'm sorry. war is always more important than anything else. if we have a war going on, he has to make decisions about life and death decisions. are you saying the white house is putting off a decision on our strategic posture in afghanistan? the number of troops he has there until he gets his victory on health care? >> no, no, that i'm not saying. i'm saying it is sucking up the oxygen, a political debate in washington, one. it's sucking up the oxygen of the white house's ability to communicate on these other issues. go to afghanistan. the reason of the postponement, about troop levels, at this point, if you're going to debate that point, is because i think, they're in the middle of trying to figure out what is the long-term strategy? everything i understand about what's going in afghanistan, not to get off on a tangent here is this. they're trying to come up with a new set of metrics, trying to redefine the mission, so that when they make the decision to send troops, they can tell some of the folks on the left in congress, look, we have an exit strategy, here it is.

the problem is they know they can't go asking for more troops without having some sort of end game in place, ready to go. >> we've been there for eight years. that's a good question. let's go back to this question. i think a lot of people are disturbed when you talk to people. you go out and speak to groups. you hear somebody stand up in a group. maybe these are republicans, but i don't know but i think they still have a good point. they say, look, the country is worried about the state of economy. and increasingly worried about this war in afghanistan. and you're focusing on this trophy you're trying to win here for health care. why don't you focus on what we care about? isn't this a problem for the president? >> the president can't really take things off the table. events, facts, force issues that he has to deal with. >> that's right. >> the bush administration tried to remove the israeli/palestinian conflict from the front burner. let's ignore it for eight years. it will be fine. >> they did a great job. >> yeah. it gets worse. the president doesn't have a choice. he's got to do health care, because as he says, the status quo is unacceptable. he's got to do the war, get out of iraq. he's got to do something about afghanistan.

he's got to do the environment. he's still got to do immigration, which he wants to do. and then i hear the next thing he wants to get to next year is tax reform. he's got to do it all. that's why we elect -- or we elected, i think, an activist president. we envisioned him as someone who would be an activist on these things, who would do it all, would take on issues simultaneously. and most -- >> so get used to it. >> absolutely. most people say, don't concentrate on this, concentrate on that. he's going to concentrate on everything. >> roger, chris, i want to make one point. when you look at our poll numbers from 30,000 feet, the public is punishing everybody in washington right now. whether it's the president with lower approval ratings or congress with disastrous approval ratings, and this is both republicans and democrats, i wonder if they are punishing washington for not having the conversation that they're having around the kitchen table, which is jobs, jobs, jobs. >> that's what i concern. >> and i do think there's a disconnect between the public and washington.

and that's why you're seeing a very anti-washington attitude. >> we're on the same page. the republicans, i noticed a little pullback. are they feeling they're jumping the shark, to use a television term, with these crazy town hall meetings? i saw the eric cantor meeting in virginia the other day he's a smart guy. he wants to be president, whatever some day. he's smart enough, is he, that it's time to cool it? that this crazy anti-government talk isn't improving anybody's life? the clown show is over. it's better now to look like you're at least hopeful of getting a better health care plan for the country, even if you voted against it. is that the republican assessment right now? based on our polling. >> yes. all of the republican congressional republican talking points shifted about a week ago, frankly, to we're for reform, too. you know? we're just -- absolutely they know there is sort of that -- you're making progress, you're making progress. and our poll, independents disapprove more of the president than approve of him for the very first time. we see shifts of independents in

the generic ballot of congress. so they're making -- they made their case against the democrats right now, so now they're going to have to shift into making a case for themselves. i do think the leaders get it, the question is, don't forget, you have your congressional leaders and then you have the activist leaders on talk radio and in the media. they're on a different page. >> people on the activist radio are not afraid, because they're not afraid of anything. but at some point, if we have violence in this country against our president, of any form or attempt, people are going to pay for it. the people who have encouraged the craziness. and i get the feeling at some point the responsible grown-ups, people in elected office for 20 or 30 years, you know what it mean to be responsible office holders must be saying to themselves, i don't want to be the one responsible if one of these loony tunes gets a gun and does something. >> i agree 100%. but the base of the party, the core of the party likes the clown show. this is the energy they haven't seen since november of last year. we were all sitting around talking about how the republican party was through. well, during the summer, we were talking about, gee, look at all these people. >> they're playing with fire.

>> they're playing with fire. not with words, so much, as the casual attitude that all of us are taking to people showing up at presidential events with firearms. >> i'll say it again -- >> and we're not doing anything about it. >> the best thing the national rifle association could do, and hasn't done it yet, simply make a statement, you have a right to bear arms, don't bring arms to political meetings. they have the leadership to do it, they should do it. >> one final point in our poll. nearly 80% on our poll say they personally like this president. so i think, sometimes, we sort of -- we miss the forest through the trees sometimes. and i know there absolutely is an element that's angry with him out there and maybe has a personal hatred for the guy. but, look, a majority of the country has a -- personally seems to like this guy. a large majority. >> and that's what he showed on letterman, warm, funny, and human. >> got to go. thank you, chuck, thank you, roger. coming up, the top u.s. general in afghanistan wants more troops.

he wants a lot more, apparently. but what's the mission there? and what's it going to look like if he gets 40,000 more troops, if we go to a complement of more than 100,000? what do we get done? the tough dilemma right now for president obama and it's coming up here on "hardball," next. ever worn your clothes in the shower? if you're using other moisturizing body washes, you might as well be. you see, their moisturizer sits on top of skin, almost as if you're wearing it. only new dove deep moisture has nutriummoisture, a breakthrough formula with natural moisturizers... that can nourish deep down. it's the most effective natural nourishment ever. new dove deep moisture with nutriummoisture. superior natural nourishment for your skin.

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welcome back to "hardball." president obama's top commander in afghanistan wants a troop buildup of maybe 40,000 troops to protect the local population and beat back the taliban, which is on the march. but some of the president's advisers are balking at a big troop increase and instead are considering a more narrow

strategy of just targeting al qaeda in afghanistan and pakistan. so what are the consequences of each plan? frank gaffney, a buddy of ours, former assistant secretary of defense during the reagan administration, and also president of the center for security policy. and ron reagan, radio talk show host, who does not lead any institute that i know of. frank, i want you guys to give me your philosophies. we're not getting into the technicalities here tonight. there's two philosophies. i wanted to hear both of them tonight. yours first. your role, your belief of what our role should be in afghanistan, vis-a-vis this apparent call for a big troop buildup. >> i believe, chris, that we are facing a global problem of which the front in afghanistan is just one piece. i think you need to deal with the afghan front as part of that larger story, because you can't afford to lose there. as a result, my assessment is, we're confronting people, not just the al qaeda types, not just the taliban, but lots of

folks who embrace something called sharia, what traditional or authoritative islam believes is to be imposed on us, muslims as well as non-muslims alike. these guys will not stop in afghanistan. they would like to defeat us there. i think we have an obligation to ensure that doesn't happen in afghanistan. but i think we've got to be clear, win, lose, or draw in afghanistan, this war is not going to be over. it is going to be fought on battle fields far afield from afghanistan. it will just be harder if we have cut and run, if we have collapsed, if we have otherwise been ridden out of town on a rail from afghanistan. >> well said. we know that world view, sharia, we're facing. we're facing the front of sharia rule, of zealous brand of islam and all it means about women and their lack of rights, et cetera, et cetera. their attitude toward the world. now, ron reagan, your view of afghanistan and what our views should be.

>> my view is you don't commit american lives to a mission that you can't define. we can't define what victory in afghanistan really is. defeating the taliban, that's not why we went there in the first place. let me ask you this question. if on september 12th, let's say, afghan -- the situation in afghanistan was as it is now, in other words, osama bin laden in pakistan, a corrupt but nominally pro-western government in power in kabul, and the taliban threatening, would that have been a pretext for us to send troops into afghanistan then? i think not. so we have to ask ourselves the question, why are we still there now? now, frank is absolutely right that this is a global problem. but it doesn't follow that there is a central front, therefore, in afghanistan. the central front is everywhere, if you will. and if we want to deprive al qaeda of a base of operations in afghanistan, well, we might just as well deprive them of base in somalia, yemen, or any other of a number of countries where they are where they are. >> let me go back to frank.

the consequences of us pulling out of afghanistan, because general mcchrystal seems to be saying, if we don't go in bigger, we might as well leave, because we can't win. the mission we're seeking to win right now with the troops we have. so if we pull out, if we don't do what he wants us to do, what are the consequences? >> he said, you wanted a counterinsurgency strategy, mr. president, here's what it's going to take. it's more people. we don't follow that advice, and i think we're going to find it very difficult to prevent the sharia inherent types including the taliban from reestablishing effective control over the rest of the country if not all of it. the problem is, there will be both in afghanistan then and in a lot of other places people who are redoubled in their conviction that their triumph is inevitable, that the united states is another super power that they're going to defeat and that ultimately they will succeed in doing what allah has

told them, pursuant to sharia, which is imposing this global theocracy over the whole world. so i'm concerned that we lose in afghanistan, it doesn't necessarily translate into the califade, but it is one more step and will result in redoubling elsewhere. >> doing something wise in afghanistan is not losing in afghanistan. we've got to be smart about this. we can't be worrying about what people living in caves in pakistan might think of us if we do the intelligent thing here. now, there are things that we can do in afghanistan that don't involve, necessarily, putting a lot more troops in there. for instance, what worked in iraq? well, it was when we started paying and arming tribal war lords there. we can do the same in afghanistan. let's exploit the system that has been in place there for, you know, god knows how many centuries with tribal war lords holding most of the power. if we can convince them that it's in their best interest to get rid of the taliban in their region, the taliban won't be there. as long as they've got the firepower to pull that off, they're going to kick the taliban out.

>> chris, the actual lesson of iraq was, you buy off guys that you can, but you've got to be backstopping that with the presence of your forces there. i think what we're starting to see is those american forces come out, even though we're continuing to try to pay people off, is that things are not going well and they're likely to go a lot worse. >> the british ruled in afghanistan, were basically massacred. the soviets ruled in afghanistan, and thanks to our support, they were thrown out, thanks to the stingers, et cetera, et cetera. if you would have advised those two powers, would you have advised them to stay, frank? would you have advised them to stay? >> well, i'm not suggesting that we occupy afghanistan, which is what those two countries tried to do. i'm saying we partner up with afghans, evolve this thing that allows them to take responsibility for their country. we have to recognize, no matter

how you dress it up, what ron is suggesting here is abandoning the place, doing the smart thing and getting out. that will result in the takeover of the taliban. i don't think that would serve us. >> do you believe karzai was honestly re-elected? >> no. >> but we support a guy over there who stole an election. that's okay with you? >> look, we're not supporting him so clearly anymore. >> you said partner up with him. you just said partner up with him. >> i'm talking about the afghan people, the afghan military -- >> well, the government over there. you just said partner up with karzai, who stole an election. >> you said karzai, chris, don't misquote me. i said partner up -- >> karzai is the president of the country. >> partner up with the afghans is my exact statement. >> how do you that without partnering up with their government? >> karzai may or may not be the president of the country much longer. we'll see. that's not clear right now. >> you're not being clear. >> i'm not focusing on backstopping karzai. i'm talking about trying to have the afghan people take responsibility for their security as fast as they can. >> that will take decades. what frank is talking about is nation building and that will take decades.

in a country that is basically medieval. are we going to be there for decades? i don't think so. >> it is security building. and, hey, look, it was your guys who were telling us, this was a war of necessity. the president -- >> when osama bin laden was there, it was. but he's not anymore. >> he was saying it when he was elected president and bin laden may or may not be. >> first of all, don't call him my guy, because i'm independent. >> i hate to see karzai -- i hate -- oh, don't. >> come on, chris. >> okay, frank gaffney, who wants to partner up with karzai, although it's not really karzai anymore, he says. we have a problem here, it's called afghanistan. thanks, frank gaffney. thanks, ron reagan. up next, here's a taste of tom delay last night. well, there he is. we'll tell you how the hammer did in the scoring when we come back in the side show. [ birds squawking ] [ moos ]

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back to "hardball." time for the "sideshow." first up, bonnie frank breaks me up. he showed up by satellite on the jay leno for transcontinental q & a. >> if you had to have dinner with one of the following political conservatives, which

one would you choose? rush limbaugh, glenn beck, ann coulter. >> i couldn't do yon kipper, on this one? i guess of the three, i would choose rush limbaugh. it would be very painful and he would come with the painkillers. >> the last thing you said to a president you wish you could take back? >> this is true. don't worry, mr. clinton, they don't have the guts to impeach you. >> if you could take one politician out of office, who would it be. >> the guy he was now the governor of alaska, mrs. sarah palin. >> sarah palin is the chief reason barack obama took south florida. former house majority leader, mr. delay made his debut on dancing with the stars to the music of "wild thing" as in you

make everything groovy. ♪ wild thing you make my heart sing ♪ ♪ you make everything groovy ♪ wild thing wild thing, i think i love you ♪ ♪ but i want to know for sure >> i have no idea what to say anymore. this is a dancing competition. so what score did delay earn from the show's judges? 16 out of 30. tom delay nets a 16-point gain of 30. solid rookie performance by the hammerman. tonight's "big number." inside look at the marriage and political partnership of barack and michelle obama.

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i'm christina brown. here's what's happening e. u.s. authorities shut down the busiest land border crossing after a shootout with suspected traffickers. at least three people were wounded from gunfire trying to cross south of san diego. and three more hurt when a van loaded with illegal immigrants tried to run the border but stopped by customs agents. fire crews battling a new wildfire in the southern part of the state and already burned 6,000 acres in ventura county but no injuries reported.

more than nine people have been killed as heavy thunderstorms pound the state for two straight days. the governor has declared a state of emergency in 17 consists and the house voted to extend unemployment benefits through the end of the year with a state with unemployment rating 8 1/2% welcome back to "hardball." a new book best selling author christopher anderson goes inside the marriage of the first couple. it's called "barack and michelle portrait of an american marriage." a great book. let me ask you, what did you learn that's different between the clinton marriage and the obama marriage? >> where do i start? you know, i mean, a lot of these marriages, i did a book on the kennedys, one of the bushes. a lot of tension simmering underneath the surface. in the case of the clintons the

hostility at a couple points. not so with the obamas. at this case, they're partners. one doesn't feel eclipsed by the other or smothered. it's a different situation in the white house now. one of their friends told me they love each other but the most important thing is they respect each other and are proud of the work they've done. >> is there a division of the spoils like there was with the clintons where hillary clinton rightly or wrongly insisted on a piece of the action, piece of the clipboards, staff, et cetera, wanted to run health care? a seventh of the economy? as part of a division of power. does michelle insist on any share of power? >> no, it's funny, too. michelle is as instrumental in success as a political figure as hillary was in the success of bill. maybe more so. she's very careful to play -- not look as if she's power grabbing at all. she's steering this midway course between laura bush who had the more traditional role of first lady and hillary. when she talks about health care she's talking about how these

problems affected her family. she had one child, sasha, at the age of 3 months was rushed to the hospital and diagnosed with meningitis. for 72 hours she was in that hospital room with sasha and barack and, you know, it really changed their lives. of course, her father had ms and she grew up with this problem and he died unfortunately at the age of 55. she knows all about the health problems people face in this country. >> can barack still impress his wife? >> oh, yeah. as a matter of fact, you know, valerie jarrett, their great friend, says there's an element of fear on barack's part which is good. you know, he doesn't want just do the wrong thing and say the wrong thing. he says she's my co-conspirator. she's the one person that keeps things real. michelle says, yeah, i'm the bad -- wife -- who kypes things real. in any long -- any long-term marriage, any marriage that's going to last you have to have that. >> you're missing my point. i'm trying to be positive here.

you're talking words like bad a here. this is something every guy wants to know the answer to. he wants to know if it's true for himself. can he still impress his wife, do surprising things? can he still win her heart anew? >> you know, i think everything he has accomplished -- >> you have no idea. >> i would say my take on it is that, you know, she's constantly surprised what this man's been able to achieve. she wasn't so sure it was smart to run for the senate in the beginning, smart to run for president. when she was on board she was one of his most important tools. >> what do you think it's like up there in beautiful upstairs of the white house? i remember seeing it in a movie. "dave." i was up there once for president bush sr. he had us up there for a movie, my wife and i. what do you think it's like at nights? the reaganed they had an empty nest sort of marriage, comparable, the clintons were busy doing something. what is it like upstairs in the white house today? >> they're close to their children. the first time in their lives they've been able to spend time

with them. there's the quality family time. they make time for each other. he's talked about the fact every day he makes what he calls michelle time to be with the first lady. they've got mary ann robinson, upstairs, the grandmother on the third floor, helping with the kids. things are easier and nicer for them. they're flourishing, their personal relationship as well as his presidency. >> where did the idea michelle would be a jackie-like. i mean, you have to be careful about these things. we're both men. let's not get into a gender thing. there's something spectacular about the way she's presented herself as first lady. laura bush wasn't a clotheshorse, eisenhower wasn't. >> i spent a little bit of time -- i know what you're saying. i spent time with jacqui. she was a very impressive woman. she was, you know, i think michelle is just as stylish but not, frankly, as cold and aloof and removed. jacqui always looked like a deer caught in the headlights. if you met her at a cocktail

party. not so here. this is a woman people can identify with. she talks about the carpools during the campaign and the parent teacher conference they still go to portray them in the most quintessentially american first family we've had which is really saying something. >> how did she transit from being a woman who had a certain milly tans about her? first of all, i'm liberal about these things. i don't think it's bad to be militant if you're an a amp -- african-american, after the history they've been through. a little bit of toot there, now, it seems to be a more grand attitude than i've got a point of view that's upset with this country. like when she said the first time i'm proud to be an american. when did that happen? when they won caucuses? >> the genesis, look at this woman, when she went to princeton, her white roommate's mother pulled her daughter out of that room when she learned michelle was black. i mean, she's constantly people

-- gosh, you sound so articulate, just like a white girl. she had to put up with racism on a personal level and i think she was speaking honestly then. i think she's changed her tune now that she's seen in the country is in a position to change and has changed. >> see you later. thank you very much. you're a successful guy. you have a winning streak here. christopher anderson the book is called "barack and michelle." the role race may be playing in the backlash of the president's program on health care. obama and former president bill clinton have something to say about the race factor. aapparently disagree with jimmy carter, my old boss. this is "hardball." something new is happening at ethan allen!

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100% of the people who oppose him on health care today would oppose him on health care anyway. so i don't want to say that president carter is wrong about their being some still racial prejudice involved in the opponents of president obama, but this fight is a fight which would exist no matter what the color of his skin is because of the, look what happened in '93 and '94 to me? >> welcome back to "hardball." that's the man once called america's first black president, bill clinton, reacting to former president carter saying the overwhelming portion of the animosity directed against barack obama is based on the fact he's an african-american.

an interview with david letterman, president obama answered the same question. we'll get to that in "the politics fix." joining me right now, chicago trib bune tribune's clarence page. our friend. "usa today" susan page. let's ask that question. bill clinton says health care is health care. it's got the same enemies no matter who's pushing it. >> he's right. there's a difference in the way the outrage is expressed. those signs we saw on the mall during the t.e.a. party demonstrations. for example. some of them had racial innuendo to them. you know, zoo's got an african lion -- >> i call it innuendo. that's subtle. >> what's the real purpose? the purpose is to stick it to the guy in power. you know, if it were george bush you'd be seeing texas jokes of some kind. that's basically what it is i think. >> i don't know what's in and what's out anymore, susan. i read "the new york post" they have cartoons about david

david paterson being blind and it's a joke. i used to think there's a decency line about ethnicity and handicaps and stuff. you know what i mean? where is the line? bring down the other line and you can use race against them, jam them. your thoughts? is bill clinton right? is jimmy carter right? who's right here? >> i guess i think they're both rig right, if that's possible. it would be naive to think that race does not play a part for some of the opponents of president obama. but there are certainly nonracists who oppose president obama and have concerns about the health care plan. and as president clinton said, you know, this was a pretty fierce battle in 1993 and 1994. there was no question it was going to be a fierce battle this time. >> suppose -- my executive producer brought this up and i want to run it by you because it twisted my interest. and it's an interesting question. perhaps president barack obama goes through an epiphany and says, you know what, i think we

have to do more about business in this country. i think this big government is a mistake. i'm going to pull back a bit. and i'm going to kick a.c.o.r.n. in the butt a bit. it feels good. will the people who despise him decide they like him? >> what has he done to offend the medical industry, the doctors? >> you're the one with policy. forgive him for being black. >> my view is, he's thrown so much meat out their to the lions, the more he throws, the more that comes at him anyway. >> would they forgive his background if they liked his foreground, where he was headed? hard question. >> i think those who are motivated by race, it wouldn't make a difference. but there are people in the middle who think, gee, i think we should do something about health care but i'm worried about the size of this package or the cost of this package. and i think it's really unfair to kind of paint them all with the same brush. >> i agree. >> and i don't think it does president obama any good to talk about race. >> you know how you know that? you know how you know that? that's what he thinks. here he is on letterman making your point.

you always know where he stands, he tells you. here he is on letterman last night. let's listen. >> within the last week, a couple of days ago jimmy carter started talking about this behavior and was speculating that perhaps this unease or poor decorum was because people were rooted in racism. is he on to something there or is that just something to talk about? >> first of all, i think it's important to realize that i was actually black before the election. so -- so -- really. this is true. this is true. >> how long have you been a black man? >> we'll be back with clarence page and susan paige for more on the "politics fix." you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. sea salts vary in color and taste. one tops them all.

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we're back with "the chicago tribune's" clarence page and "usa today's" susan paige for more of the "politics fix." it seems to me the president is up against his first big conundrum, afghanistan. does he increase the troop level, perhaps up to 40,000 more trips, up to 100,000, or does he begin to pull back and fight his own general? >> we have -- we see the president in really a terrible quandary here. because he laid out a pretty clear position when he was running for president. he called afghanistan the right

war. he has a recommendation from generals he says he trusts that they need more troops. but i know when the president met two months ago with a group of historians for a private dinner, they warned him that afghanistan loomed as a problem that could overtake his presidency as wars have in the past for lyndon johnson and others. and he told them he was mindful of those lessons of history. >> well, he may be mindful, susan, but the fact is he now has to face a real-life situation here, clarence. when your general that you trust as susan points out, tells you that i need more troops to increase the counterinsurgency, as you laid out, not just counterterrorism, you need to control that country, i need more troops and the liberals don't like this. >> that's right. and republicans, conservatives, led by george will and his like are questioning our need to be there. since he made his initial statements about the -- this big

war, the right war, conditions have changed over there considerably and maybe the strategy mckrcrystal s in mind is not strategy we should be pursuing. i also don't know which way he's going to swing on this, chris, but does he run the risk as we we know historically about afghanistan being the place where empires go to die, he runs a big risk of a conundrum here. we don't have the troops right now, by the way, to meet mccrystal's goals. >> you know, i don't get emotional as much as people think i do, but i was reading the paper today and i'm sure you both reacted the way i did to what we saw. let's take a look at a picture. this young italian kid whose dad is a captain was killed last week over there in an explosion. you know, you tell the people in italy or the people in america that their fathers are dying to fight sharia rule in a country called afghanistan because we don't think that's the right way to run a country. frank gaffney says we should be fighting sharia, susan paige, on the show tonight. is that a creed for the american people? would they rally around the flag on that one?

>> you know, i think the american people would rally around the idea of fighting terrorism in afghanistan because it remains a threat to americans, especially even americans here within the boundaries of the united states. but i think it's -- i think -- one reason it makes it so hard is that it puts president obama really at odds with his -- his base wants us to get out of afghanistan. it's the opposition that has been supportive by and large of the war there. that makes it more complicated. this was an issue that gave barack obama some credentials as a potential commander in chief. >> i know. >> when he was running for president. a turn is going to be something hard to do. either course is a difficult course for him to take. >> thank you very much, clarence page and susan page. join us tomorrow night for more "hardball." we will be joined by former u.s. congressman, jim traficant, who has just been released from prison and we have him coming here. "countdown" with keith olbermann starts right now.

which of these stories will you be talking about tomorrow? markup mania hits the senate finance committee. senator max baucus hints he could support a public option trigger. most republicans continue to object to just about everything. >> i find it utterly and completely appalling. >> this bill is a stunning assault on liberty. >> the stunning letter from big insurance. the bill described as the sweetheart deal for insurance apparently not sweet enough for them. and in comedic perfect timing, will ferrell in "funnier or die" parody the health insurance companies. >> health insurance executives are getting a bad rap. >> as the health care debates heat up. >> we need to remember who the real victims are, health insurance executives. >> meantime, the biggest health care developments happen well outside the beltway. massachusetts is a step closer to naming an immediate successor to ted kennedy's seat. the importance of getting the 60th democratic vote back in the

senate for harry reid. the race debate in the health care fight. first, it was former president carter. now it's former president bill clinton weighing in. >> i believe if he were not an african-american, all of the people against him on health care would still be against him, because they were all against me, too. >> health care not a big enough obstacle to tackle? president obama also hits climate change and middle east peace today. get getting israelis and palestinians not only in the same room but also shaking hands. >> it is past time to talk about starting negotiations. it is time to move forward. and how low will he go? tom delay dons the sequins and takes the floor on "dancing with the stars." >> left, left, left, that way. >> going left for me is absolutely outrageous. >> hammer, don't hurt him. all that and more now on "countdown."