show. i assume after seven years out of the political business and in prison you've learned something about life, something important that you didn't know before. i'm just guessing. what are your attitudes now? how are they important for us to learn from? i assume you've learned something. >> first of all, i'm glad to be here, chris. i'm glad to be anywhere. i still have federals swarming around me. they won't admit that. they're looking at every opportunity to send me back. the main thing i learn when i come back, i wasn't the only one in prison. it seems like this whole valley had been in prison. i'm upset with the fact we have 12,000 delphi retirees and hourly workers, salaried and hourly workers who are going to lose their pensions, their pay into their health care and they're going to pick up a $60 million a year factor. when you look at the multiplication factor of this it's almost going to be a $250

million a year in this area alone with a $1.5 billion loss throughout the state of ohio. let me say one thing on this, this is important, this delphi issue. it hit us harder than the closing of steel mills. almost. second of all, if we can give billions and billions of dollars to banks who won't lend it to our people unless they have $3 in the bank for every $1 we borrow, why not take care of our own people? tired of seeing this money going all over the world. all of this stimulus money. stimulate this. that's what i'm saying. >> you still talk like a politician like you're running for office again. >> you never know. i may. i want to get the irs, kick them in the crotch real good. i want to reform the justice department who investigates themselves when they commit crimes as they did in my case. it's going to explode before it's over. most importantly, i think the problem with america no one is talking about, while they're talking about health care and other issues to basically camouflage what i think is this systemic problem.

we have a tax code that cannot be reformed. it must be replaced. they have to throw the tax code out, abolish the 16th amendment, chris, and come with a 25% fair tax, retail sales tax. dr. dale jorgensen at harvard did a study and said there wouldn't be an appreciable cost factor added because of the heavy burden of tax code that's penalizing investment, killing investment, awarding dependency in this country. it's crazy. we have to start with the rudimentary problems. no one is talking about them. we're all going to have clean air. we have to be careful, everyone is losing their job, health care and home. especially around here. i expect them to do something or i will come back down there. >> you sound like a republican. >> well, if the republican program is good, i support it. if a democrat program is good, i support it.

if it's good for america, i'm for it, period. this is a problem in washington. too many of these people walk like little lemmings over the cliff with so-called leaders. chris i've got to tell you something, i have never seen such weak leadership in my life. chip o'neal is rolling over in his grave. jim wright may have had his problems. i personally think he was railroaded. he was a speaker. when he said something he did it. i think it's time it that the democrats now lead and quit disguising these problems. look at that tax code. we need a border of adjusted tax. these imports are coming in. our trade deficit, chris, is $700 plus billion. beam me up. how can we overcome these problems? >> you know, you're talking with this populous fervor, jim traficant, and, yet, you know, the democratic party in the congress voted to kick you out. how do you go back into a room of politicians now and say you

guys were all wrong, i was right? all congress? i'm the only guy in the room that was right? >> i don't have to tell anybody they are wrong or right. i was targeted by the justice department since 1983 being the only american in history to defeat the justice department in the ricco trial. they couldn't live with that. i was a number one target in the american/israeli public affairs committee. people are scared to death in washington to say what's wrong with the country. because if you rile some big people, you're done. they're more concerned with perpetuity than what's going for the country and the country's going to hell in a hand basket, chris. a very serious problem. >> without getting into the specific charge against aipac and the other, when you sit in congress, i want your perspective on this. you were in congress for nine terms. are you saying members of congress are basically prostitutes? that they're basically scared to death of the interest groups,

scared to death of the people who buy their campaign? what are you actually saying about the system? >> chris, years ago on the house floor on a foreign aid debate i called the members of the house of representatives a bunch of political prostitutes. they demanded my words be stricken. they jumped up like 100 tv evangelists. ini apologize to those offended. i went outside and a stringer group said tell us what you really feel, jim. here's what i said, chris. i want to apologize to all of the hookers in america for having associated them with the united states house of representatives. yeah. i think it is a big whorehouse and they better start taking care of america and forget about the med east, start worrying about the u.s. take a look at the trade deficit and throw out this tax code. it's killing america. >> let me ask you about that. let me ask you about -- >> that's what i stand for. >> you have been missing a few chapters in american political life.

the election of barack obama while you were inside and when you got out you were watching t.e.a. bag parties, town hall meetings, birther movement. what's your reaction to the world you missed, sort of angry american right out there? are you part of that? >> number one, i'm speaking at a lot of these t.e.a. bag party, t.e.a. party rallies. they need direction. they mean well. they're upset with the country. as far as obama is concerned i tell these t. em e.a. party groups, don't go after president obama. his hands are tied. i think his heart is in the right place. i've said that when i've spoken. but the bottom line is no one is dealing with the problems, chris, because if you deal with the real problems in america you get targeted and you know what i'm talking about. i don't want to give you chills up your leg again here. >> yeah. that was -- jim traficant, that was below you. you can do better than that. let me ask you about your personal situation. i will ask you one time only.

it's a free country. you're a free man now. let me ask you, do you believe you are in any way guilty as charged? in any way guilty as charged? in any way? >> number one, i'm not a free man and no, i was not guilty. >> in any way? you were a totally innocent man. >> in any way. in any way. when it's all over it will come out, chris. >> how are you going to establish that fact so the people listening now will believe it? i'm serious. how are you going to make your case you didn't make seven years ago? >> chris, i'm not trying to convince everybody to believe it. you have juror number eight, leo glazer to come out and he's giving revelations about that whole issue. four of the seven people that testified against me now it's come out they lied. a young, black man in nigeria who said his life was ruined. he was deported because he wouldn't commit a crime for the justice department and lie against traficant.

they are deporting his 79-year-old parents. i'm going to say this to washington, you should look into the ocollo matter. they destroyed his life and his parents because the government zealed to convict me. they broke every law to convict. and before it's over, i want them to know, i'm coming back at them, chris. >> okay. let me ask you a final question. >> this is the bottom line. >> final question, congressman. you were under ohio law. permitted to run for office. >> don't call me names. >> okay. jim, you can run for office. there's no legal reason why you can't, right? >> i'm 25 years old, i'm eligible to run. there is no restriction on me running. >> what would get you to run for office again? >> number one, i'd have to look at the variables on it, chris. there's a thing i can't imagine if i come back how well i was received. i never realized how well i was received around the country. there's talks about a possible movie and several things. i don't know what's happening here. my case is beginning to explode.

people are starting to admit they were pressured to lie. now there's going to be a microscope put on that thing. i don't know what i'm going to do. i may run. if i do, i want to say this right on your program. i'm going to try to abolish the internal revenue service, repeal the 16th amendment, and go right at the justice department who investigates themselves when they commit a crime. finally, if i am subpoenaed to germany in the case, i'm going over and i am appalled not one politician in america has even looked into this man's plight. period. i'll go right over there. >> you're sticking to your defense? you believe he's innocent? >> the first time, chris, it was my freedom of information act request that proved he wasn't ivan. it came from the justice department. they let the justice department go without being charged. he was convicted, sentenced to death when i brought him back from israel. he's in germany. israel wouldn't charge him on this second offense.

i want to say this. i want to give israel credit. the sixth circuit court in cincinnati wouldn't accept my evidence. congress wouldn't hold a hearing. i sent it to the supreme court in israel they gave america a lesson in justice. they said, take him home, congressman. let me tell you something, this man is not what they're saying he is and it's a shame that no one's even looking at his plight. >> okay. thank you very much, jim traficant. >> i will, chris. >> thanks for coming on "hardball" tonight. great having you. >> this is "hardball." >> it is. >> thank you, chris. coming up, what's the mission in afghanistan? can we meet that mission? president obama's considering using fewer troops in that country to target al qaeda terrorists. well, can he win that one without loses in pakistan as well? we'll be right back with the question. can he sell it to his own party? [ female announcer ] introducing new tide stain release. it helps get the toughest stains out the first time. whoa, that's a first. [ female announcer ] that's because new tide stain release

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welcome back to "hardball." president obama's weighing whether to send more troops to afghanistan or scale back our operations to simply hunt down al qaeda in the region. according to the new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll a troop buildup would be a tough sell to the american public and his fellow democrats. 51% of americans oppose sending additional troops to afghanistan, a slight majority. broken down by party, catch this. 2/3, 67% of the democrats oppose a troop increase, and while republicans, 3 out of 5, 60%, support, is there's a real difference in the parties. what are the political pearls of sending more troops to afghanistan versus cutting back? pat buchanan msnbc political analyst. dede myers, former white house press secretary to president clinton.

pat, speaking of a man of the republican party, the republican party says it's for a troop buildup. is that a deep-seated belief or hawkish impulse? do they think there's a win in afghanistan given the karzai corruption, the dishonest election, the rest of it? >> the republicans have to have their doubts, i'm getting a little feedback in the ear. the republicans have to have their doubt. at the same time it is quite natural for republicans. they believe in the efficacy of military power and of fighting. they do think people like mccain, they're honest. they do believe if we press down and keep at it we can win this war, that perseverance counts. they have to have their doubts. >> it seems the democrats are instinctively anti-engagement in that part of the world. they don't like deeper military involvement. these are instinctive reactions. obama seems to be off base with his party on this. >> the lessons of history are

not that encouraging, whether looking at the history of afghanistan, where many powers have gone into their pearl or lessons like those drawn from vietnam where you get into a war that is in many ways unwinnable and becomes a quagmire. people said obama worries this could become his quagmire. there are lessons of history and instinct that make democrats wary of this. we've seen how things have gone in recent months. the elections in afghanistan. not having a stable partner to fight if insurgency is making this very difficult. >> the problem obama got is this. if he draws down troops as biden seems to be suggesting, i think you lose afghanistan to the taliban and he loses the country. if he maintains the present level of troops, mcchrystal the commander saying in effect we are losing the war or headed for mission failure unless we get more resources, i.e., 45,000 more troops or somewhere up toward that number. think the political imperatives

and imperatives on the ground and his lack of knowledge and the fact he's being boxed in by a secretary of state and by the republicans and by generals and mccain, i think that probably argues for a temperizing decision to send more troops but not 45,000. >> that doesn't sound like a thoughtful thing, dee dee. it seems to me he walked into this. i don't want to fight for iraq. that was a mistake. i will fight for afghanistan. it reminds me of jack kennedy saying i'm not going to fight for laos, though eisenhower said to do it. i'll fight for vietnam. kennedy didn't believe in the south vietnamese struggle. he was indecisive. is this a problem when the president is not following his own hunch, simply making a political move, then finds himself in a real situation which is hellish and has to make a real decision, not a pr or political decision? isn't there something more important than politics? should we be losing lives in afghanistan right now? >> that is the question on the table. in march barely six weeks into

his presidency obama decided to send additional troops, new strategy, into afghanistan. he talked about it throughout the campaign and in the early weeks of his presidency that afghanistan was the good war. we took our eye off the ball in iraq. we should have nipped that in bud. we didn't do it. things have deteriorated. in the last six months. the debacle of the election of afghanistan. the president said, let's take a look, let's not send resources after a bad strategy. let's re-evaluate our strategy. on one level, that's a solid thing. you want the president to rethink things and be clear before we make a plan on he's being pushed around by the generals and secretary of state and others. >> chris, if this is not a wise war or winnable war he ought to say we're going to have to turn around and come out of this. he, himself, is a bit of a problem. he escalated with 21,000 troops, said as of about a week ago this

is not a war of choice. this is a war of necessity. he has laid down markers. the question is is barack obama, if he doesn't believe this is a winnable war, is he a big enough man to say, we're going to turn around and walk out the way reagan did on a much smaller level after he put the marines into beirut and they got killed and he eternally regretted it but came out? >> we made the right decision in the second instance. let's take a look at the problem you pointed to, pat. here's secretary of state hillary clinton, his former rival. i think she is putting up a situation he is going to have to contend with. here is secretary clinton. >> some people say al qaeda is no longer in afghanistan. if afghanistan were taken over by the taliban, i can't tell you how fast al qaeda would be back in afghanistan. >> she is his ally, top foreign policy minister. she's dictating policy here. i'm not being tough here. i'm just stating the facts. how does he respond? >> i don't think she made a

secret out of what she thinks. this is a very difficult situation. what the mcchrystal plan calls for in essence, general mcchrystal's plan is nation building. i think the president ought to consider that carefully before he gets in there. the way to win is not to kill all the insurgents and take on the taliban. it's to protect civilians and enhance their lives through better governance and economic development. that is a very tall order in a country that is very primitive. has few resources and no infrastructure. >> that's not worth a lot of american lives, though. i think, chris, look, somalia is a, you know, no-man's land. yemen is a no-man's land. al qaeda can move into there, could move back into afghanistan. it wasn't the guys in afghanistan. they plotted this in dell ray beach in arizona and virginia, getting driver's licenses in germany and democratic countries. may have been trained there. we can't run around everywhere and take over the country.

we build it. turn it into vermont and hope somehow they're going to take care of keeping al qaeda out. >> apart from the politics is the question of time. i'm being -- i have had a mixed view about richard nixon. one thing i didn't like, pat, in that administration between 68s is and '72. nobody wants to loose a war. if this president stays in afghanistan because he doesn't want to have an "l" next to his name, that's bad. that's my view. he has to believe in the mission. he has to believe the mission can succeed or we shouldn't be there. how can we be the allies of karzai? how can we justify the loss of another soldier in the defense of a government that's corrupt? it has nothing to do with politics. he has to do with morality as our leader. can he justify that? >> you have to wait on some level of the outcome of the

commission which will revow view the election. may say that karzai won in spite of all the things going on. in which case, you don't have another choice if you're going to build an anti-insurgent operation there. you have to have a partner. as general mcchrystal says you have to do more than fight the bad guys. make life better and protect the safety of the civilians there. you can't do that without a government partner. you're between a rock and hard place. >> if you don't believe this is a wise and winnable war you shouldn't fight it. you should have the courage to turn around and say we made a mistake in going in for nation building. we did enough in knocking these guys over. you go back and listen to lbj talk to richard russell. 1964 he didn't believe it was a winnable war. he put them in there for five years. >> johnson and nixon kept us in a war we couldn't win. i think that's the issue. should we stay in a war we can't win because of political pr reasons? pat buchanan, dee dee myers. you got to the rate question. up next, don't be so helpful.

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back to "hardball." time for "the sideshow." pitching a fit. remember the heroes welcome moammar gadhafi gave the lockerbie killer this summer? he's had a hard time finding a place to pitch his tent for the u.n. assembly meeting in new york. denied permission to hoist tents in new jersey and central park. he tried to pitch a tent on property rented from donald trump. from today's "new york post" cover that bid was a no go. trump and town officials ordered his tent dismantled. while he delivered a speech at the podium today, he had only good things to say about our president.

let's watch. >> americans are happy, proud that one son of african governors the united states of america. now the american people, the black african kenyan young voted for him and made him a president. we are content and happy if obama can stay as president of the united states of america. >> did you hear. he called him a kenyan. our president. a kenyan. he wants obama to be president for life. birthers alert, another chance to go crazy. up next, art imitating life. last night was the premiere of cbs' "the good wife," a series that revolves around the very public fall of a cheating politician. check out this scene between juliana margoules. >> men can be lazy, women can't.

that goes double for you. not only are you coming back to the workplace very late but a prominent package. but if she can do it, so can you. >> that is hillary clinton in that photo. it's a great show so far. time for tonight's "big number." new study of congress, there are 57 democratic members on the social networking site twitter. catch this. how many republican twitters in congress? 101. almost twice as many. 101 republican lawmakers are atwitter as we speak. will republicans win by going hard right by ideologically purifying themselves? is sarah palin their new hero? we're going to look at what's next for the rs, the republicans when we come back. - ( music playing ) - a work of art. a finely-tuned machine. a sanctuary. a command center. ( both revving ) a sophisticated sedan. a sports car.

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here's what's happening. iranian president mahmoud ahmadinejad addressed the united nations wednesday night saying his country is committed to building peace and security worldwide. he then lashed out at what he called unbridled capitalism and accused israel of inhuman policies in the palestinian territories. several delegations including the americans and canadians walked out of the chamber as ahmadinejad began his verbal attacks on israel. the american delegation called ahmadinejad's remarks hateful and offensive. later today, massachusetts governor duval patrick will announce his pick to secede the late senator ted kennedy. allowing the governor to point late wednesday. hot, dra santa ana winds are pushing massive wildfires through farmland in southern california. orchards and fields worth billions of dollars are at risk.

back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." a south carolina republican with conservative cred to spare is facing four primary challengers because he's not right wing enough. an effort by conservatives to purify the party. to its core. speaking of the conservative core sarah palin addressed bankers and business executives in hong kong today during which a speech which she criticized president obama's policies and decisions and praised ronald reagan. is this a step back to the big stage for her? with the polarizing palin in action, numbers to purify the party in the south, what's the future of conservatism in his country? sam tanhous is editor of "the new york times" book review, author of "the death of conservatism." thanks for joining us. your book points a traditional

thread in conservativism, fight for what's good and correct what isn't. not to be a constantly insurrectionist trouble-making party. no one is listening to you. >> i guess not, chris. by the way, gadhafi does a great borat imitation, i think. in south carolina you have a guy who doesn't need to be purified. he is true blue or true red ideological conservative. why are they going after him? he was one of those who thought he thought joe wilson dishonored the house that he's a member of. conservatism is supposed to be about honoring and respecting political traditions and institutions. that's what inglist did and now they're saying he's not pure enough. it's interesting, too, because what we see is the old culture war coming back. nobody is looking at inglis' record. they're saying he piled on the other guy. this isn't about policy or politics. it's a kind of verbal war that they're, you know, waging against this guy.

also notice how when you see a party reduced to its kind of minority core as this group is, everybody runs to the right. you might think when they've been kind of pushed over to the side there that they would want to crawl back to the center because that's how the republican party got into power 234 the first place. by capturing the center. >> let me report to you another way of looking at this. i'll challenge you. you're something of an intellectual. your great book -- >> don't call me names. >> i'm going to refer to you p.t. barnum said if you want a crowd, start a fight. that's how they used to get people to come to the circus. have a fistfight on the street corner. after everybody showed up, they handed out the bills and said come to the circus. the republican party climbed back well within beating distance of the democrats. look at the new nbc poll and "wall street journal." 43% preferred democratically controlled congress, 40% prefer the republican.

they are now, having had their rear ends kicked last election and the one before are are in within three points of taking back the house, perhaps. i'm just ask you this. you advise them to be tame and civilized. it's the crazies, berthers, flags, nuts, crazy charges against barack obama that seem to be working. >> you know, chris, it's a great way to draw a crowd and get people into the tents. we have a country with 300 million people in it. what we're seeing is very conspicuous thousands calling attention to themselves. some people on cable tv, maybe not your network but others making a lot of noise. >> take out the maybe. >> the great william f. buckley said the conservative movement has had its share of noise makers and pyrotechnicians. that's who we're hearing from now. but the fact of the matter is much of the country isn't there. another point, too, if we look

at where politics was conducted at the street level, it was the left that was doing in the late 1960's, that's what gave conservatives and the republican party the ticket to get back into office because they were the defender of institutions, of social order. >> there's one point that i'm looking at because i'm a practical guy, not a politician. eric cantor, number two guy in the house, very smart. the guy is acting very cautious. had a town hall meeting the other day that was not a bunch of fireworks and people yelling crazy things. civilized. on the mark. he's got the polls to show republicans if they want to get back into power, even though they have to be conservative, they have to be conservative grown-ups. >> that's exactly right. even when you have the statistic about twitter, we forget if you look at the reporting on this, it's actually older people and not younger people who use twitter. you know, it's interesting, too, that one surprisingly strong

demographic for the republican party in the 2008 election and everybody looked away because of the raptures about president obama was the elderly. there's a census bureau report that shows their numbers are growing. they're a major constituency. the same people who are worried their medicare is going to be taken away are the same ones who said to george bush don't cut into our social security. i think we're looking at a demographic shift in the country that may have as much to do with age as it does -- >> i think the older people without any slight to them because i'll be there soon. they're so happy with socialism, they don't want anybody else to have it. they have medicare that is free, they deserve it for working all their lives. but when everybody else wants it, they say, no, no, we can't have that kind of government-run program. let me ask you about this thing about foreign policy. is the republican party three years from now when they have an election, going to be the hawk party, the neoconservative party? going to be a party that's raising the flag of war? are they going to be going the

other way? looks like they're still the hawk party. >> it does look that way, chris. i thought you made a great point and pat did, too, about the ideological and political bind barack obama put himself in. during the campaign it was very easy. it was a great line to say we took our eye off the ball in iraq. should have been in afghanistan. all the while forgetting afghanistan is worse. it's harder. we're learning now we didn't have decent intelligence coming through the bush years. they don't know where the fight the battles now. what obama was able to do politically was set himself up in a position where he looked as if he had the more rational answer. it may not look that way in the months ahead and we know historically the country tends to trust republicans -- >> brutal question. are we going to knock off karzai the way we knocked off diem in '63? >> i'm serious. that's a deadly awful question. how do we get out of a bind of backing a guy who stole an election?

this is like dar lynn in north africa. we cut a deal with somebody who shouldn't be there. remember? it's a problem. >> we made those mistakes. de we assassinated the guy and do it in the name of democracy and alienate the people we're supposed to -- dee dee myers is right. it sounds like a bad movie we've been through before. >> thank you. good luck with the book "the death of conservatism." the democrats are getting 60 senators it looks like soon. the big question, who's it going to be? my money is right now it's going to be paul kirk. you heard it here. paul kirk is going to be the next senator for massachusetts in a couple of hours. rr for all the moments that make every day special. fancy feast introduces an entirely new way to celebrate any moment. fancy feast appetizzrs. simple high qualiiy ingredients like wild alaskan salmon, white meat chicken, or seabass and shrimp in a delicate broth,

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we're back. time for "the politics fix" with salon.com's joan walsh. i'm in massachusetts. i'm going to give a speech on my colleagues. i am thrilled we're going to have a new senator from massachusetts within a few hours. the word i'm getting it's paul kirk. chairman of the party, the democratic party, longtime kennedy ally. head of the kennedy library, basically. the foundation. the kennedy people were ticked off at "the boston globe" who tried to jam dukakis down their throat. >> these good government people.

mike dukakis would have been a fine choice. this is a sentimental action. to go to this trouble and decide the wishes of the kennedy boys and vicki kennedy would make no sense, something duvall patrick could really think about doing. it sounds like you might have another senator during your trip. >> we'll have charisma this time. dukakis may have been deficient in that department. paul kirk has a lot of it. what about this question of 60 votes? will the reality of 60 democrats change the thinking of you and people like you, like ed schultz, my colleague, who are tough and militant? i use that word positively in your case. >> thank you. >> and in ed's case, who believe the democrats can rule because they wish to. in a ramrod sense. if you have the power, take it and use it. don't wait for 60 votes. do it the hard way. jam it through with reconciliation. i'm talking about health care. 60 votes make it more likely for them to wait and get it the

usual way. >> i think they have to wait and try to get it the usual way. we also have the sad situation of senator byrd, so, you know, we're dealing with a situation that's very much in flux. everyone prefers at this point. if barack obama and his allies in the senate can twist some arms and bring along kent conrad and some of the other people who have do you think about thorough going public option, i think everybody prefers that he do that rather than simply going to reconciliation. in the end if it has to go through reconciliation i would prefer that than a bad bill. we're not there yet. i think 60 votes is a great shot in the arm to get the party back together. we've never had 60 votes. there was no -- we lost kennedy -- >> why not invite everybody to a room, close the door, and say nobody leaves the room until we agree on a bill. can have the president in that room -- i'm serious about this. get the staffers out of the room if you have to. get them in the room and say, yes, you're not leaving.

this is a party vote. okay, ladies and gentlemen, this is a party vote like the budget. you're not going to vote against it. what is it your problem is? let's fix it. we can all leave together -- and enjoy life as a victorious political party. >> as a victorious politic party. we have the power to do that. we're going to define our party. sure there's going to be horse on trading. why can't we come together and really -- if they can do that they would really help their chances in 2010, chris. i mean, that's the political win as well as i think it would probably result in a good bill, but we'll see. >> is rahm emanuel the person to do this? does it take someone who's not there yet? rahm emanuel is a tough customer. he knows the hill. he could have been speaker someday. does he have that kind of grasp and that kind of scope of attack to reach moderates? is he too big city? i'm wondering if he can talk turkey to blanch lincoln. can he sit and talk -- i'm not sure you can. i'm not sure i can.

if you're a democrat and say, look, we have a common interest in success here. we have a president whose life is on the line as a political leader here. if he goes down and fails on his number one objective, we will be a failure. that's going to hurt the party. >> we'll all be failures. he will take down the party. to come to this point where we have a decisive margin in the house to have an actual 60-vote margin in the senate and then lose, no, it's got to be the president. i don't think it's wrong. >> looks like we have paul kirk as the next senator from massachusetts. let's put that on the table. does the presence of 60 democrats make it more likely they'll go the usual route, get 60 democrats, maybe olympia snowe for 61 to replace maybe ben nelson or whatever? can they do it now? >> yeah. i think it's more likely, but chris, i'm not sure how much more likely it actually is. keep in mind, that 60 is not a real 60 because they're not all true liberal democrats. who vote the party line.

a lot of red-state democrats in the south and the west going to want to take a long look at this bill and not going to automatically be a democratic vote when the roll call is called, chris. >> the roll call is called whether you're part of the party that wants to win, or the party that wants to lose. does anybody in the party think they're better off losing on health care? jonathan martyr? you're with politico. does anybody think it's a win if you lose? >> talk to blanch lincoln, kent conrad. they may think it's a tougher vote for it than against it in their states. you're right in the sense shooting it down is a big, big step. i'm not sure the democrats are going to want to be responsible for killing the health care bill that hurts their party in the long run. they're looking at it for their own state, 64 sort of red states. >> this isn't the only problem barack obama has as president. his biggest problem is much more real. it's about life and death on this planet. the war in afghanistan. was he right to double down and put more troops in there? will he keep fighting for

afghanistan? we'll be right back with joan. big question, is he willing to pull the plug? pat buchanan asked the question if he's decided he's wrong. we've got karzai in there the wrong guy. do we have to leave? and he has to say so. you think you still got what it takes, buddy? hmm? oh, pressure on. careful!! [ glass clatters ] what are you two doing? he's trying to beat my record. 61 dishes, and a garlic press. oh, that's too full! those will never get clean. they got clean when i broke the record. a fork. really? never gonna happen! [ chuckles ] sorry, buddy. so close. [ female announcer ] cascade actionpacs are four times concentrated and packed with cleaning ingredients to get even the fullest loads clean the first time. cascade. consider it clean. with "special savings" on select hand-made upholstery. you choose the fabrii... we custom make it. it's more affordable than you think. now with smart finance options for the way you live.

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we're back with joan walsh and jonathan martin with politico for "the politics fix." what did you make of traficant tonight in his return to greatness there?

>> i think he's a legend in his own mind. i don't think he's returning to greatness any time soon if he ever was great. it was pretty hilarious. did a good job asking him questions. but, what an amalgum of populous, but also flat tax. it's all about traficant. not about political -- >> i think anger in youngstown -- he's still running for something. >> he plays ball in youngstown. you, first, jonathan on this one. a tricky one for both of you. un-opinionated and opinionated journalist. i mean tough. afghanistan is real. it's not a campaign issue. it's not a public relations issue. it's not an obama issue. it's a reality. we have people -- i was taken by the sight of that young italian kid over a coffin. there's so many americans getting killed every day, and you see a young kid leaning over his father's coffin and realizing the total finality of that, the final, forever loss of your father for a young kid and go wait a minute, italy's not

that far away from america. afghanistan's really far away. and it's different culturally. countries like italy and america where people really believe in sharia and are not going to change if we stay there 100 damn years. my question to you, jonathan, how does the president defend a campaign, a war, that isn't going to change anything? >> well, it's not an easy task, chris, especially with the base of his own party. you see vice president biden now, in reports coming out about his own influence. he wants to have a smaller footprint there, move more american troops and do insurgent work in pakistan. >> anti-terrorism. they want to go from anti-insurgent to anti-terrorist. yeah. >> chris, you know the house very well. there's a lot of democrats and house representatives who have grave concerns about what the plan of action here is in afghanistan. you can be certain that those

folks are getting louder and louder. it's not a huge coalition now but it's a growing coalition of folks on the left wing of this party who are not going to stand for a long-term sort of occupation in this country. >> you know, joan, the rest could be republicans. he could have a few conservatives on the middle east. hawkish people on the middle east. generally, jonathan's right. it's an easy vote to say he's not right. we have a crook government in afghanistan. what are we doing there? >> you know, i've heard people describe him as seeming weak because he's taking his time. i disagree with that, chris. the facts on the ground have changed. the weakness of karzai and the shady election have really changed the nature of our understanding and our commitment to karzai. so if we don't have a karzai government we're not fully behind them. then what are we backing? i also think that, you know, we've got george will, a few conservatives also expressing doubt.

really the issue here is, you know, the biden versus hillary debate where biden is saying, yes, counterterrorism, fight al qaeda and hillary is saying, but if you get the taliban back, good luck getting al qaeda out. that's in the democratic party. that's a democratic party battle right now. >> what do you think the president thinks of senator clinton? secretary clinton making a strong statement of policy at this point? >> i was surprised to see that. i don't know if it's with his blessing because it's what he thinks or -- >> has she boxed him in? >> no, i don't think he's boxed in. this is a supremely, supremely self-confident man, a supremely smart man. he's got his two closest advisers. they differ. he'll make the decision. >> i love the way you do this, joan. he's a self-confident man. he can take a punch from a woman. thank you very much, joan walsh. i live -- love the way you do this. you can't win these arguments. you always win. jonathan martin. thank you for joining us. join us tomorrow night at 5:00

and 7:00 eastern for more "hardball." "countdown" is keith olbermann starts right now. which of these stories will you be talking about tomorrow? mark-up or hold-up? one amendment, two hours of debate. 500 amendments to go. penalty to the gop for delay of game. our job is to sit here and do it as long as it takes. >> i've got plenty of questions. >> senator sherrod brown of ohio on the need for speed on capitol hill. from delay to distraction. eric cantor believes there's more important issues on health care in this country. he tells a woman pressing for the public option to turn to charity for help.

yes, we can meets the u.n. general assembly. >> the time has come for the world to move in a new direction. we must embrace a new era of engagement based on mutual interest and mutual respect. >> tonight, on the world view of his young presidency, our special guest, her majesty, queen noor of georgia. and then there's moammar gadhafi, a wild speech, but the drama about where he's going to sleep in the u.s. could be its own new reality show. where will gadhafi get to pitch his traveling tent? and going global. sarah from alaska takes her show on the road all the way to hong kong. >> and i call it like i see it and i will share candidly with main street, usa. >> she goes all the way to china to bring up death panels. could she just stick to facebook and skip the jetlag? all that and more now on "countdown." >> you can actually see russia.