got to stay focused. the bipartisan moderate slap in the face liberal baucus bill has netted how in republicans? zero. we're still stuck on zero. remember that. the finance committee put up a bill that comes, okay, well under the $900 billion. but look, it doesn't create a national insurance plan, doesn't cover everybody. it is includes tax incentives for businesses and the gop still says no. >> there are those who consider this a zero sum game and will only declare victory if president obama concedes defeat. it's telling that their most of the repeated arguments, protest not the content of the bill, but now, mr. president, the number of pages of the bill. the bill has too many pages. >> senator baucus said i have to try everything i can to make

this bipartisan, and he did. he spent months and what does he have to show for it? two republican senators walked out and the others said i'll wait and see. >> know, just remember, we've compromised. no single payer, and now there's this talk of a deal about a compromise on co-op. i'll get to that. just remember, the republicans are nowhere to be found when it comes to reform. they're protecting big business and the insurance companies. despite the majorities in the house and the senate, the democrats seem to kind find a wheel to get this thing together. the baucus bill is loose change, folks. it's a hoodwink. there are some good things in it, i'll grant you that. getting rid of the preexisting conditions, limiting premium prices, yet i got to see more fine print on that. taxing cadillac plans for the rich. but the baucus bill only covers

94% of the people. it leaves 25 million people uninsured. hold it right there. this means that 25 million people are still going to be storming emergency rooms looking for coverage and where do you think costs are going to go? you got to say focused and get everybody covered. there are going to be a drag on the system. as we've been told by wendell potter, this is nothing but a big gift to the insurance industry. here are more customers and uncle sam is going to be paying for them. the government is paying you to pay private insurance companies. that's supposed to be a deal? they're not looking for any change here. this isn't reform. this is a sellout. the house is floating, an interesting area to fix a lot of stuff. nancy pelosi said democrats are looking for a windfall profits tax on insurance companies. that will make them nervous. >> i have asked chairman rangel

to ask his staff to see what is in it for us in terms of a windfall profit tax on income on insurance companies. there is more that the insurance companies could contribute to this health care reform. after all, they're going to get 50 million new consumers. many of them subsidized by the taxpayer, and we think they can put more on the table. >> thank you for the counterpunch, nancy pelosi. that's how you play with these righties. come back at them and say you want to compromise on public option, this is what we're going to do to the insurance industry. this is how it's supposed to be played. there were a couple developments in the senate today. barack obama called olympia snowe. she confirmed that they talked about the trigger. all right, but did not disclose the full details of the conversation. also the public option compromise, which was first reported on this show by huffington post reporter sam

stein last night and allow states to opt out, joining that plan apparently has support of a couple of democrats on opposite ends of the spectrum. both chuck schumer and max baucus, they are activity considering the idea. and late today, you know what? i never thought i'd be left of howard dean, but i guess i am. howard dean, a doctor whose opinion carries a lot of weight with lefties, threw his support behind this state opt-in, opt-out gig? dean says it's real reform and if the opt-out proposal were to get 60 votes in the senate, democrats ought to support that. am i the last rat to leave the ship? the republicans are getting everything they want for the insurance industry, and i'll tell you what, lefties, we got to call, stay focused, we got to

be on this. no cable talk show is going to talk somebody into a vote. i understand that. but i do believe that there are americans out there that want this, that can be motivated to force these folks that when they get in the conference committee, they'll remember it's about the people and not the insurance industry. get out your cell phones, i want to know what you think about this. are democrats at a point where they're just going to take anything when it comes to health care bill? next a for yes, b to no to 622639. lots flying around on capitol hill. joining me now is a member of both the senate finance committee and also on the senate health committee. senator, at this hour, you are the perfect interview. i appreciate your time tonight, because we have to mesh these two things and you have been right at the firewall with all of this. now, where do we stand on the

state opt-in, opt-out program? is this something that you could support and if you could, why? >> well, frankly, ed, we just went through a couple of weeks of mark-up on the bill. there was ample opportunity for that to be put forward as an amendment. i never did see an amendment offered involving that concept. my initial reaction to it is that states have the authority right now if they want to establish a so-called public option within their state. there's no prohibition against that in federal law, nothing to keep them from doing that. so i guess the idea of having a state opt-in to a national public option might be that the federal government would provide assistance to states that wanted to do it, but i'm not sure that's what is being thought about. so i'm sort of agnostic until i learn more about the proposal.

>> so this is pretty much an 11th hour curveball, just trying to get some people satisfied with a government plan that might be involved in providing competition, is that correct? >> i don't want to characterize it as a curveball. it may be something that merits serious consideration. as i say, though, we had a chance to offer the public option. senator schumer offered a version. i supported that. there wasn't anything offered involving any opt-in, opt-out opportunity for states. >> this is a late-inning twist is what it is and part of a diversion, but that's just my opinion. now, to the point, senator, the senate finance committee bill, as it stands at this hour, do you think it can get 60 votes? >> well, i'm not sure whether it can. i certainly hope it can. but we're not going to get the

vote on the finance committee bill. we vote on it on tuesday, but the full senate is never going to vote on it. they are going to vote on the merged bill that senator reid develops. >> and you're on both of those committees, and in the senate health bill, it's got a public option and your colleague sherrod brown has circulated a letter stating what senators are for public option. only 30 of them have signed it, and your name's not on it. why not? >> well, frankly, i'm not in the practise of writing letters to senator reid. i see him about every hour and a half 679 and when i have things to say to him, i say to him and he says things to me. >> what do you say about a public option, are you for it or against it? >> he hasn't asked my opinion as of yet. i voted for it in the health

committee and the finance committee. i'll vote for it if the opportunity presents itself on the senate floor, which i believe it will. i don't know if he will put it in a bill he brings to the senate floor or opposed as an amendment. either way, i would plan to support it. >> senator, i will count that as a signature just because your name is not on here, we have a commitment that you're to be a public option. i appreciate your time. >> good talking to you. john nichols, washington correspondent of "the nation" is here. now, this letter that sherrod brown is sending around and everybody says they only have 30 signatures. wait a second, this is the point i'm trying to make. i don't think you can do a head count and say, everything is going to fail and liberals can go home now. i don't buy that. i also don't buy that this state

opt-in, whatever the heck that is, all this is going to do is give the conservatives a chance to fight against any real reform. your thoughts on that, john? >> i think the state opt-in and opt-out is a nightmare. i'll tell you why. i don't think people understand what happens with programs like this. you have to think back to welfare when some states had better welfare programs than other ones. those became political footballs. you would see right wing republicans run against a moderate democratic governor saying oh, he's giving away the store, he's taking your tax money and attracting people from other states. it divides them along the lines of race, color, ethnicity. this is a bad road to go down. >> and the funding of it, obviously, is going to be a question as senator binghamton

said. but if you look at how the insurance industry has thrown lobbyists at this, on a state level there's a lot of easy votes that can be bought, a lot of elections that can be swayed to keep states out of opting in or out of the public option. >> you create a race to the bottom, not a race to the top. states can create single payer programs right now if they wanted to. >> where's obama? where is the president of the united states on this at this hour? your thoughts? >> i think the president is about to make a move. he has to. because once that senate finance committee votes on tuesday, you're going to have to begin reconciling these bills in the house and senate. when that happens, if the president doesn't step up and send a signal, he's going to get a dumbed down bill and end up spending a lot of political capital that isn't going to be very impressive. he's got to push up, not allow the compromises to push it down.

>> great to have you with us. coming up, this is the worst job market we've had in 70 years. a tax credit for new jobs could help, but some call it corporate welfare. robert rish will join us to break it down. plus, michelle backman has taken crazy to another level. she says her critics, a group that includes me, are stalking her. she says msnbc is stalking her. congresswoman, you say stupid things. and you're back in "psycho talk." stay with us.

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welcome back to "the ed show." the issue is american jobs. up employment at a 26-year high, benefits are running out for thousands. take for instance detroit has the highest unemployment rate in the country at 27.8%. today, 35,000 people in that city lined up for hours to apply for a share of federal stimulus funds to help pay for housing. only 3,500 will get it. that's in this country, folks. how bad is it getting? for more, let me bring in professor of public policy at uc

berkeley and author of the book "super capitalism." what should we do to fix this? >> new jobs tax credits. small businesses that create most of the jobs in this country ought to get a tax credit for every new job that they create. number two, we ought to exempt the first $20,000 of somebody's income from the payroll tax for a year. number three, a new wpa. like we had during the depression, if you can't get a job, hire people directly, fix the parks, train them to administer swine flu vaccines. we have a lot of things that need to be done, we ought to get people employed because there is nothing more wasteful than somebody laying around waiting to be hired. >> robert, what hair i have left does go up on the back of my

neck when i see this number. back on march 6th of this year, the stock market was at 6,443. today, it closed at 9,786. hey, i'm all for profit and i'm all for people making money. but those aren't main street numbers, those are wall street numbers. until we can get cheap money to small business with flexible terms, i mean, we can change the terms as we go along depending on how the economy works for that particular business, this recovery isn't going to happen. because the risk takers are not coming into the market. your thoughts on that? if i'm wrong, tell me. >> first of all, on the stock market. the stock market as we have learned painfully is not an accurate gauge of the real economy at all. one of the reasons that corporate earnings are going up is because they are cutting their costs. their main cost is their payrolls. so they're slicing payrolls, causing more unemployment.

it shows their earnings are going up but more are losing their jobs and fewer people are able to buy the goods and services those businesses are creating. so it's a self-inflicted wound. secondly, you're right. small businesses need to be able to get credit and the banks are not providing the credit to them. the big wall street banks, the five biggest ones are sitting pretty. they're going back to what they were doing in 2007, their executives are doing fine, their bonus pool is terrific. but smaller banks that provide small businesses with loans, those small banks are in terrible trouble right now. >> this is going on, we're in month number ten now, okay? i don't think the obama administration gets cheap money in flexible terms for small businesses. i don't think they get it. i don't know how in people in the administration have had to meet payroll and write the check to take the chance for a small business. i think they need to address this. >> i do too.

i think it's -- it's main street generally. people are still having huge problems with their mortgage loans. this whole notion of helping people revise their mortgage loans and modify their loans, that's not happening. a lot of students can't get education loans. a lot of people can't get auto loans. these are good credit risks. we bailed out the big guys and bailed out wall street, but nothing is strikeling down. >> thank you. appreciate your time tonight. i should also point out that the $8,000 tax credit for first-time home buyer also expire here at the end of the month. that's been a good program. they have to address that. for more on manufacturing and how to create jobs, let's bring in scott paul. scott, you know, let's talk about detroit. we have to start viewing people as a commodity, as something that can be good for the economy to employ people.

what could we do with the city of detroit sitting at 27% plus unemployment and thousands willing to work? what can we do to fix that? >> i think the possibilities are unlimited. and it's important to keep in mind exactly as you said, ed, our most valuable asset as americans are the innovation and hard work of our workers. let's put them back to work. i like some of the ideas that the secretary reich had. we need to focus on long-term economic growth and we need to be investing in high-speed rail, in clean energy, we need to be getting, as you say, some capital to the small and mid-sized manufacturers and create markets for this. we're behind. china is doing this. korea is doing this. japan is doing this. we're the only country, ed, sitting there, sitting on our hands not wanting to aggravate wall street or the markets.

but we got to forge ahead. otherwise, this 15% unemployment in michigan is going to keep growing and growing. the situation in detroit is only going to grow, and it's a shameful sight to see all those people on the street. these are people who once worked in factories, who made things that were terrific, who took pride in their work. we have to put them back to work. >> do we need a manhattan project in detroit? >> we absolutely do. we have workers who worked for years in factories that made great automobiles. they can make fuel cells, they can make l.e.d. lighting, they can make the next generation of automobiles. they just need a chance. they need some of that wall street money invested in detroit rather than in china. >> fdr did it, i don't know why obama can't do it. it's probably because the republicans could be against that too. the senate is probably going to vote on extending these

unemployment benefits another 17 weeks for 50 states. that's good for now but not the answer. we have to start making stuff in this country. thanks for your time. >> thanks, ed. next up, i've shown you how crazy michele bachmann is. now we can add paranoid to the list. you won't believe what she's saying now about this network. and how people are stalking her. "psycho talk" coming up. ( inspiring music playing ) someday, cars will be engineered using nanotechnology to convert plants into components. the first-ever hs hybrid. only from lexus. of maxwell house's flavor lock lid. hear that? seals it tight. smells like fresh ground. fresh fresh fresh fre-- that's our favorite part. ...fresh! (announcer) taste why maxwell house is good to the last drop.

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"psycho talk" tonight. frequent visitor and star, michele bachmann, congresswoman from minnesota. the paranoia, folks, is setting in. yesterday we went on fox and they asked her why the liberal media was so obsessed with her. this is her response. >> i think it happened with a competing cable network that took an interest in me and it's grown. so now it's like i almost have personal stalkers, only they have tv shows. >> congresswoman, as a representative of that competing cable network, i have to tell you, and being a minnesota resident, sometimes, this isn't stalking. you're an elected official and the american people have a right to know when you say stuff that simply isn't true. it's practically a full-time job to stay on top of all the lies you tell. >> i wish the american media would take a great look at the

views of the people in congress and find out are they pro america or anti-america? the data that was collected by the census bureau was handed over to the fbi, and that's how the japanese were rounded up and put into the internment camps. national takeover of health care. sarah palin easily is a competent woman. not all cultures are equal. death panels are the bureaucracies that president obama is establishing that bureaucrats will make the decision on who gets health care. and thank god for joe wilson. >> that's only a fraction of the library, i might add. michelle, the reason that we talk about you is because you're saying all this crazy stuff. and we're going to keep on covering you until you stop saying all this crazy stuff. don't get me wrong, because i don't want you to stop. this segment is a heck of a lot more fun for me to do and i think entertaining when you are

in "psycho talk." coming up, jim dement is so relentless in trying to kill health care reform, i'm starting to think his favorite word is waterloo. joan walsh coming up to talk about that. plus, the president has a huge decision to make on afghanistan and time is ticking away. there is so much passion on both sides of the debate. congressman dennis cue initch will join us and pat buchanan makes his first trip to "the ed show." stay with us.

welcome back to "the ed show." president obama has a big decision to make on afghanistan. and he has a lot of voices to consider. most republicans on the hill want obama to follow general mccrystal's advice and send tens of thousands of additional troops into the war zone of afghanistan. but a recent poll found that 50% of the american people oppose a troop surge or whatever you want to call it. democrats in washington are

divided. some, like senate majority leader harry reid said they'll support whatever decision president obama makes. but others in the congress want to end the war and bring the troops home. joining me now is democratic congressman from ohio dennis kucinich. congressman, great to have you with us tonight. on your birthday, i might add. thank you for staying with us. >> thank you. >> is this an easy call in your opinion for the president? what should he do? >> well, it may not be an easy call for the president because he has not determined to get out of afghanistan, nor get out of iraq. so once you start to get into the slippery slope of entertaining general suggestions to send more troops, you start to cut off the possibility that you're going to pack up the troops and get out. so he must be in a difficult way on this. we need to get out and get out now. >> why? why do we have to get out? >> first of all, you have total corruption in the country. it's a weak central government. you have gang lords and drug lords running afghanistan. there's no way to plan a

democracy there. we're looking at more losses of our troops. we're destabilizing the pakistan border. this is a losing proposition for the united states. and we need to recognize that. i'm hopeful that president obama will go with his first inclination on afghanistan, which is to start to go in a direction of getting out and it does mtsdz look like that's going to happen now. >> congressman, devil's advocate here. isn't it too much of a gamble not to have a presence there? what kind of presence would you suggest that we have to fight people who do want to hit this country? >> every occupation fuels an insurgency. al qaeda didn't have a presence in iraq until we went into iraq and now we're there and look at the mess we're in. we need to get out of iraq and afghanistan and take care of things at home and work with the world community to stabilize that broader region. we cannot go it alone because we don't have the troops, we don't have the resources. we can't keep spending trillions on war and forget health care and job creation and retirement security and education here at

home. >> are you convinced that we can protect this country without having a presence in afghanistan? >> absolutely. as a matter of fact, i'm convinced we'll be safer once we get out of areas where we'll starting to inspire insurgencies. the more we're there, the more civilians get killed. do you think if someone loses a member of their family that they are going to be a friend to the united states? we're creating enemies. the way you create friends is work with the wider region on matters of security. we can't police the world but we can be part of an effort to secure the world. >> what kind of reaction do you think president obama is going to get from his base if he sends what is requested, what has been requested, 40,000 troops? >> he's the president. he can make the decision. but let me point out something that the reporting is somehow ignoring. and that is today, ed, congress

approved $130 billion, they authorized $130 billion for wars in iraq and afghanistan. and i think that you have to start considering that congress is giving up its authority here by continuing to say we're going to give you whatever money you want, you're the president. they're forgetting that the constitution of the united states puts the power in the hands of congress under article i, section viii, the war power. we have the power to cut off funds. frankly, i don't think that's a good play for any president to be. >> congressman, appreciate your time tonight. >> thank you. for more on this issue, let me bring in pat buchanan, former republican presidential candidate and msnbc analyst. pat, your first appearance here. welcome to the people's republic of damn good television. >> i remember you from the dakota days, ed.

>> pat, what's the correct move here? if the president decides not to put troops in, where does that leave us in your opinion? >> well, i think you have to listen to general mccrystal's analysis. he says given the current balance of forces, we can't win this war, and we're risking mission failure. we're risking a defeat. we're risking a taliban victory. when your general tells you that, you can't say i don't care what he says. obama is faced with two choices, wind the war down or listen to general mccrystal if he wants to win it. it's a tough choice, but i think those are the choices. >> what is the definition of defeat? if he makes a decision to get out and says we can be protected as a country, where is the defeat? >> the united states started

this war on the taliban. the united states will lose, the taliban will control the south and east. the united states will be seen as having been defeated. the people cast their lot with the americans will be slaughtered and massacred. you'll have city officials, tribal leaders, government officials, soldiers, women who taught in these women schools, they will be wiped out just as they were in algeria, vietnam and cambodia. across the arab and islamic world, lit be seen the americans committed themselves to a war, they said we're going to turn this into a dmokty, and after 800 dead, the americans turn tailed just like the russians did. that will be a dramatic loss for the united states. maybe that's coming, ed, but i tell you, we ought to look a defeat in the face and its consequences, and i think those are what it will be. >> well, you know, the appetite for war is starting to dwindle

in this country. the vietnam war lasted 102 months and we're at now month 96 in afghanistan. the president is going to have to have some political will behind him to maintain this. to send 40,000 troops in there, pat, this means another -- at least another two to three years. i mean, do we have the stomach for that right now? are the american people going to be with the president on that? >> i think mccrystal agrees with you on this. he realizes look, we're going to do what we have to do in 12 to 18 months to turn this around, because the patience and the perseverance of the american people for this war is fading. half the country is against it, half the country is against putting more troops in there. and there's still a possibility in my judgment down the road that if he ratchet up 40,000, the taliban see us and hold out for a little while, seeing the

american also only be there another year and then take over. it doesn't take sense, ed, to hold with the present strategy when even your commander you sent in there says look, this isn't working. we got to change the strategy and we need more troops. >> this is long-term interventionism is what it is. i mean, how do we know -- >> ed -- >> how do we know we're going to be safer with a presence in afghanistan? that's a judgment call. >> i don't think we should have gone into iraq. 4,000 dead, the cost enormous. i don't think we should have gone nation building in afghanistan. we should have gone in as per general powell, go in, you got to knock over the taliban to get at al qaeda. go after al qaeda, try to kill them and get rid of them. if they move out, then you move out and tell the taliban if they come back in, look, if you do this, if you give these guys sanctuary, we're coming in and it will be worse. in the meantime, we're going to be bombing you.

but to build a country out of that backward area that has never known any kind of democracy as we know it, it's not western, it's islamic. i think their government comes out organically out of the roots of the civilization and we can't re-create vermont in the hindu kush. >> pat buchanan, always a pleasure. a lot of ifs in that answer, buddy. >> it's a tough call. >> thanks, pat. coming up, the president's playing basketball with blue dogs tonight. i think it's time for the president to get into the game on health care myself. new poll numbers show when the president gets involved, support for reform goes up. joan walsh, her take when we come back and other issues on "the ed show." stay with us. people think that honda is always the most fuel efficient choice. well, this chevy cobalt xfe has better highway mileage than a comparable honda civic. the all-new chevy equinox has better mileage than honda cr-v.

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choosing your own car? now that's a good call. go national. go like a pro. welcome back to "the ed show." tonight, president obama going to be playing a pickup game at the white house tonight. arne duncan, education secretary. tim geithner? he doesn't have any game. and a bunch of blue dogs. how hope the president gives hem a locker room talk. the president has been on the sidelines way too long in this health care debate. he needs to just jump in the game and lay out what he wants. this is a critical moment for the president. a new poll yesterday showed a major uptick in the president's approval rating for support on health care reform. pollsters say the public liked it when the president got involved. he spoke to congress, he went on the road, he needs to keep the pressure on. a poll just out today showed

confusion still reigns when it comes to health care. 47% say they oppose the president's plan, but 61% say they support a public option. i also think democrats need to start calling the republicans obstructionists because i don't think the american people quite get it. only 27% of them think the gop is acting in good faith. okay, they get that. but 57% of them say that they want a bipartisan bill. i have no idea what the heck that is about. the democrats can't focus on the republicans, to work with them you can't count on. we need to move forward and we will with joan walsh. good to have you on tonight. thank you. the latest news out of washington is that they're working on a state opt-in, opt-out deal. what do you think? >> i'm going to be agnostic

until i hear the details. i hear the polls and they think bipartisanism is the way to get around gridlock. obama frankly hasn't told them that the problem is there are no republicans to compromise with. that's why we have gridlock. in terms of the opt-in, opt-out, opt-in would be a disaster. opt-out, i would like to hear the details. the only good point is something that paul krugman raised on his blog today. he said it might be fun to see these red state democrats or republicans, whoever they are, telling their constituents, we're going to opt out of this cheaper plan and you're going to pay more because i'm on the payroll of the insurance industry. so let's see what they flesh out before we get all over it. it could possibly work. >> it would appear to me that it would pit states against states, because the conservative states, and they are out there, would say hey, we don't want to be like them because they got to pay the taxes or local taxes

going up. all of a sudden you have a target to blame, and it would be health care reform. so it divides people. i think it's a sellout by the democrats. what do you think? >> i think it's probably somewhat of a sellout. again, i'm passionately for a public option. i want a strong public option. this is a real compromise. let's be clear. the only thing i would say is i think it's not that subsidized people would get the public option. if our employer did not give health insurance, we could pay into it also. so you have people with skin in the game handed over to the insurance companies to pay this mandatory health insurance premium. i think those people will get smart, if their state decides to opt out. working people who are now forced to pay for health

insurance would have to pay for it. they might say, why are you -- californians have this great public option. why are we, say in montana, going without it? >> what's the play for the democrats on the pushback on med scare? this is a sound cut from harry reid on medicare. here it is. >> ever since senate republicans opposed the creation of medicare, they spent the past 40 years on the wrong side of history when it comes to helping seniors. in the past ten years, republicans have voted against protecting and strengthening medicare 59 times. the american people can be excused for not buying republican's 11th hour claim that they're the true guardians of senior's health care. >> today, the republicans were quick to point out that in the senate finance bill, there's a $500 billion cut to seniors. who's going to win this bar, joan, how does this play out? >> i think it's tough to explain in the abstract, ed, and taken

out of context, the republicans have been using it. but i think that harry reid's logic said with a lot of passion and said often, can carry the day. they've always opposed medicare. it's ridiculous to see them as the defenders of medicare. and the cut is actually a complicated restructuring. them not cut senior's care and will not cut medicare. so i think if the democrats get tough, take on these lies, basically, they can win. if they are not, they're going to get rolled. >> joan, thank you so much. coming up, over 400,000 unemployed americans lost their health care last month. congress is considering a lifeline to those who face the chopping block. that's one subject we'll talk about with our hot panel, next. along with health care and afghanistan. you're watching "the ed show" on msnbc. stay with us. goodwrench... we roll out the blue carpet for drivers of these great gm brands.

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welcome back to "the ed show." well, i guess it's the economy. the most telling poll number out there today may be this. when voters were asked what is most important problem the country is facing right now? 42% of the folks said the economy. 18% said health care. nothing else hit double digits, not even the war expenditures. interesting. jack rice joining us tonight, radio talk show host and former cia officer.

and a.b. stoddard, and former congressman on the republican side, now a distinguished fellow at the heritage foundation. a.b., the president is spending time on health care. but it is about jobs according to the people. what is his time frame for having to turn that number around, in your opinion? >> i think he has to get health care off the table as soon as humanly possible. he has some tough races he's looking at in virginia, and new jersey and virginia, the democrat is behind. republicans could win that race. it would demoral eisnize it would demoral eisniz nervous house democrats. >> earnest, what should the president do? >> he needs to give up the idea that you create more jobs with taxes and more government spending on health care. or that you create more jobs with government spending on so-called stimulus or create

more jobs with energy taxes. no. let businesses have the incentives that we supplied when the republicans had the majority, that businesses have the certainty that know -- >> the money is still expensive. the rates are small businesses are still high and the terms are terrible. and that is obama's fault. he's got to address that. i agree with that portion of it. jack rice, where does the president go when it comes to creating jobs? i mean, the stimulus package, shovel ready projects, i mean, the jobless claims are down for the last month at 521,000. that is encouraging. that's the lowest numbers since january. are we maybe too impatient? what do you think? >> i think we're a little impatient. but if i'm losing my job, whether it's 8%, 10%, or 20% unemployment, i'm the one who is looking right now. president obama needs to be aggressive on this issue. when he turns around and looks

at wall street and says, look at the numbers, it's almost 10,000. guess what? that doesn't reflect what's going on in main street. people are saying if we're going to talk about the economy for real, let's talk about jobs for real. so his focus shouldn't be this voodoo trickle down economics of the reagan and bush administration. two tax cuts, how are those going? let's go directly to the people and bring those jobs to them rather than saying we'll cut your taxes for the rich guys and somehow you'll get a dollar or two down the road. >> a.b., what should the president do if the senate finance committee doesn't appear to be able to get 60 votes, where does it go? >> you know, it really appears that the reaction in town today to the numbers that the senate finance committee was able to produce after being scored by the congressional budget office, this was a deficit cutter at under $900 billion over ten years. i think he's going to stick with this bill.

ed, i know you don't love this bill, but the four other bills are more expensive and i think in the end, he's going to drive the consensus around the finance bill. >> any republicans going to jump on the bill, what do you think? >> the notion that this bill would cut the deficit was written by the tooth fairy. it has fictitious cuts that are going to happen in medicare spending. congress said that before, didn't follow through. the cbo report even says as much. then over 60% of the house democrats have written a letter to speaker pelosi saying don't go with this tax on health care. >> jack, the pressure is on nancy pelosi. is that a fair statement? >> absolutely. she has to push. the republicans have no problem with hurting america so long as they hurt president obama and the democrats. president obama must step up now in the reconciliation process. >> thank you, panel. earlier i asked you are democrats at the point where

they will take any kind of health care bill passed? that's "the ed show." back tomorrow night from minneapolis. i got to see what they're saying in the heatland this weekend. chris matthews, "hardball" is next on msnbc. an endless war? let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, which way out? we went into afghanistan eight years ago, it was to route the taliban, which had supported the people who killed us on 9/11, al qaeda. but can we ever eliminate a group of afghans that were strong enough to throw out the soviets? what stops them, the taliban, from regrouping and rebuilding? and most important recruiting as soon as we leave no matter how long we stay. what do we do?