show some courage. is that enough to get endangered democrats on board? does she have the 216 votes she needs to win? plus, how far will the tea party folk get in taking over the republican party. they're headed to victory in texas tomorrow night with their man rick perry doing the same in florida. how about arizona, kentucky. who's going to stop the tea party people from taking over that party. also, howard dean is here tonight, and my question tonight, is he going to be the tea partier of the left? is he going to make his party more progressive, or is he going to try and purge it? are folks like blanche lincoln fair game for him. republican obstructionism strikes again. 2,000 transportation workers were out of work tonight thanks to senator jim bunning who is blocking a bill that extends federal highway and transit programs, but doesn't he have a point? why do we have to borrow from the chinese just to pay for unemployment compensation? has it come to that. and something new tonight. a segment of all-out commentary that comes at the end of this show. it's from me.

it's called "let me finish." charlie cook, the best there is. he's also on nbc. a nbc news analyst, the same thing. and newsweek's howard fineman, who is the best in his way. we're going to see how they compete. >> what way are you, howard? >> he was on cbs's face the nation with bob schieffer. let's listen in. he was giving us a hint. >> i don't think we have the votes in terms of specific proposals, because there's not a specific proposal on the table yet. the president has made some suggestions, which i think reflect -- >> when will you have the proposal? >> i would think within the next couple of weeks we're going to have a specific proposal and start counting votes to see whether or not those proposals can pass either the house or the senate or both and send something to the president. >> that is the slow-mo kind of politics i cannot -- steny, steny, i thought about bob dole talking about it being a markup. answer the question.

we're going to get to this. let's hear the speaker here. here she is, nancy pelosi. she was on this week the abc show. let's listen to her account where this stands. this is really coming down to it in health care. >> do you have the 217 votes necessary to pass? >> right now we're working on the policy. from the meeting on thursday, the summit meeting, i believe that we're ready for the next step, which is to write legislative language and then go from there. first we zero in on what the policy will be. and that is what we'll be doing following the president's summit yesterday. secondly, we'll see what the senate can do. what is the substance and what the senate prepared to do. and then we'll go to the third step as to what my members will vote for. >> finally, the truth, it comes down to this. this whole fight over health care has been going on every night with all the programs talking about it for more than a year now. it comes down to this.

the house is going to vote, the senate bill they'll reconcile in both houses to make changes to make both houses agree. it's all up to the democrats. that's a fact that took them forever to say it. howard, here's the point. does nancy pelosi have the guts, the stuff, the juice, the will power, whatever, the iron will to get this to 216, get the votes she needs? >> she has the will to try. i talked to a member of the leadership today, not nancy, but somebody in the leadership who put the odds of passage at 45% right now. that's under 50%. there's no specific final proposal yet, number one. nancy pelosi hasn't begun her arm twisting. by the way, she's very, very good at it. >> she's got a good gain. >> and barack obama hasn't come around one last time for the one-on-one meetings with the individual house members and said you really want to wreck my presidency or not. >> so it's brinksmanship. >> it's brinksmanship. i went over this with a fine toothed comb. i have the different categories and -- >> where are you at? >> where am i at? i'm right at 215, 214.

>> they can do it. >> it's knotts 218 anymore. it's 216. >> the members keep quitting. >> and why is that? >> it's like that agatha christie play, they change the name of it, buff they keep disappearing. charlie cook, you've gotten more pessimistic about the democrats holding the house. how about this health care bill. can they pass it given what they face this november in terms of losses? >> the democrats that are in really tough districts, tough races, i don't think they're going to get any more votes out of those guys. in fact, they could lose one. >> the ones in mccain's district where mccain carried? >> exactly. but where they could find something is, for example, some of the retirees. like a bryan baird, jordan tanner. they could go there. you had four voted against the health care -- >> who on the left voted -- >> kucinich. kucinich, >> don't they need kucinich in the end? how can you vote no and bring down health care?

>> he'll vote for it in the end. >> the leadership person i talked to today, in the room at all times, says that they mentioned those three liberals charlie talked about, who voted no, and i can see barack obama calling dennis kucinich in and saying, hey, you can be a hero, man. okay, it's not the perfect. >> progressives have to be for this. it's better than what we got, right, for them? >> there's another smaller category of what i call a swing good government people. jason altmire, stephanie from south dakota. these are people who voted no. deficit hawks, but not quite the blue dogs. >> here's the question. you know the old terrible kinard against john kerry, which is i voted for it before i voted for it, i voted for it before i voted against it, if you're a democrat and a house member and you voted against it the first time, and now you decide you're going to vote for it, can't your opponents trash you and say, oh, he was against it before he was for it. and run that at him? >> unless you're somebody like dennis kucinich.

>> one of the people on the left. the people on the left have more to run on. >> how about in the middle? somebody from a red state? isn't that a tough one for you? >> i don't think so. >> you say what you don't think so? >> the thing is, i think it would have to be one of the four from the left. i don't think anybody from the right. >> nobody from the right will change and vote for this? >> no, no. >> we just saw a poll in bobby >> bright's district. montgomery, alabama. here's somebody who voted against the stimulus, against health care, against cap and trade. he's 20 points ahead. he has found that if you run as fast as you can from the leadership, from the president, in a tough district, you can survive. and back in '94, we saw that, too. the guys that voted against the brady bill, they voted against the white house, voted against both, their survival rate was 10 out of 11, the ones that had been elected. >> you're encouraging members to be disloyal to -- >> no, i'm not encouraging anybody to -- i'm saying if you're going to put distance between yourself and the white house, or yourself and the

leadership, run as fast as you can and you can survive. >> that won't work in the senate. >> there are people who are blue dogs who also voted with bart stupak on the abortion amendment. i count eight of those people. >> you opened up that can of worms. how do they solve the problem? >> six blue dogs. >> how do they solve the problem that you had 12 or so at least, maybe up to 40, who had their votes influenced positively because of stupak and this money going to abortion services in the insurance programs? how do you deal with the fact that won't be in this? >> the way they're going to have to try to deal with it is with a separate piece of legislation. as i understand it, it can't be in the reconciliation bill. they're talking about passing in the senate -- >> can i offer a suggestion? why don't they just pass the hight amendment again. everybody passes it all the time. here is the problem why they can't. the majority of the congress that says no federal money should pay for an abortion is not the same 216 that would vote for this bill, right?

>> the danger for them, chris, as i count it, there are these eight blue dogs who also voted for the stupak amendment. they're looking for an excuse, i think, to go in charlie's direction and get the hell off this bill, okay? they don't want to look like they're wishy-washy. they can say it's a matter of moral principle with me. i don't trust what the senate's going to do. i'm going to vote no based on moral. >> let's take a look, here's "meet the press" this sunday. let's listen. >> health care reform has already passed both the house and the senate with not only a majority in the senate, but a super majority. and we're not talking about changing any rules here. all the president is talking about is, do we need to address this problem and does it make sense to have a simple up or down vote on whether or not we want to fix these problems. >> she makes it sound easy. >> the problem, that they haven't single mindedly defined the problem. is it the uninsured or is it costs? and that -- now we're getting away from vote counts back to the substance here. if it's about costs, there are

questions, since they put off the taxes until 2018, since people doubt they get the medicare cuts they're talking about. so there's substance behind this here for these other blue dogs. >> can the concerns of those who will hold out, conservatives from the south, and they're definitely being smart about their politics, probably, can their concerns be addressed so they can take them home to the people and say look, i went to the speaker, i went to hoyer, i went to clyburn and look, i need to save money on this bill and they did it for me? >> the thing is, these guys typically live, guys generically live in districts with a lot of old people. all you have to say is 300 to $400 billion in medicare cuts and that's all they need to hear. >> you're so depressing on this. you are really down on this. you say the democrats are going to lose the congress. now you really think the democrats are in trouble no matter what they do? >> i think things would -- there

is eight months there is time for it to change. things have to change. >> suppose you're a democratic leader and you go to a -- you say, i've got to wrap -- vote this out now. get health care behind us, by the time it gets november we'll have a lower unemployment rate, you guys can win. >> that's got to be the bet that the president tells them. it has to be. >> he's got to sell that. >> we'll have a jobs bill every three weeks from now until november. >> that's what you'll need. >> thank you, howard fineman, and thank you cafe depresso here. charlie cook. you're good, charlie. how strong an impact will the tea party have on the primary in texas. apparently a big one. the question is this the start of something big? are the tea partiers taking over the party. if they get kay bailey hutchinson, going for charlie crist, they're going for john mccain. who can't they beat. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc.

somewhere in america... there's a home by the sea powered by the wind on the plains. there's a hospital where technology has a healing touch. there's a factory giving old industries new life. and there's a train that got a whole city moving again. somewhere in america, the toughest questions are answered every day. because somewhere in america, more than sixty thousand people spend every day answering them. siemens. answers. bill halder says he'll challenge senator blanche lincoln in

arkansas. halder who worked in the clinton administration has already been endorsed by movon.org. in his first campaign video, seems to be borrowing a page from scott brown. >> right now washington is not working for arkansas families. but it ought to. >> wow, four-wheel drive politics. there it is, a pickup truck. now the big question is whether senator lincoln who's badly trailing in the polls right now decides to stay in the race. "hardball" returns after this. taste. delicious new pringles multigrain. new multigrain pops with pringles.

back to "hardball." the eyes of texas are on tomorrow's republican primary down there for governor of texas, where senator kay bailey hutchison is challenging incumbent rick perry, and a third candidate, deborah medina is running to the right of the other candidates. how big a player will the tea party movement be in tomorrow's election? wayne slater is the senior political writer for the dallas morning news. he is also our friend.

chris is our closer to home friend. he is at the "washington post" newsroom where he works. gentlemen, take a look at the latest poll. it's got governor perry, the incumbent, at 40. not quite 50% in this poll. needed for avoiding a runoff. kay bailey hutchison looked very strong going into this race down in 31%. debra medina, to the right of both of the gentlemen. i want to go to the home state guy, wayne. what do you make of this race? tell us in terms of which way this country is going? >> the tea party movement, this anti-washington sentiment, so strong. i was in suburban dallas a couple of days ago with congressman mike burgess, conservative republican, and he said if he wasn't the representative from that district, he would probably be leading the charge against the representative from that district. so this is really tough stuff. rick perry has taken the anti-washington fervor, has tried to seize on the tea party movement and has framed the race against kay bailey hutchison in a very successful way.

and he could go without a runoff win tomorrow without a runoff. >> so his statement months ago, we've mocked on this show, about secession, really implying secession from washington, not from the country, i assume was crazy like a fox. >> was crazy like a fox. let me tell you, on that single day -- that was tax day, april 15th. he made that comment entertaining the idea of secession on the same day in houston, texas, kay bailey hutchison came out of a fund-raiser and told an aide when she heard about it, rick perry has just lost this race. in fact, rick perry had just won the race, because that's the attitude that texas republican primary voters have, screw washington. >> yeah. and using the language, chris, of the pre-civil war, war between the states, to use the southern term, using the old language of nullification, ignoring washington, saying you can overrule anything with the tenth amendment.

this is strong, almost constitutional type challenging to washington here. >> well, you know, to wayne's point, chris, you wouldn't think that the tenth amendment state's rights in secession would be the basis of a great formula for a campaign. but that's what rick perry has done. i think to wayne's point, perry was very, very smart. he saw the energy in the tea party movement and he was among the first elected officials anywhere in the country to put his name to it, appearing at rallies and that sort of thing. in doing it, he co-operated a lot of anger on the far right. i think we would be talking more about deborah medina potentially if rick perry hadn't done that. it shows you how many people are in the group on the right that perry is leading. deborah medina, i talk to some people, say she could wind up finishing second. it's a big group of people in texas of the we don't want to necessarily extrapolate it to the entire united states. dismissing the anger on the right, maybe the anger generally, as just a fringe, it's clearly not just a fringe.

>> no, it's not. i've heard of that up in massachusetts. they're concerned up there certainly after scott brown's victory. they know the democratic party has to reconnect. in very strong language with. let's take a look at kay bailey hutchison is paying the price of having been a u.s. senator, and a highly respected one. she's done her job for texas. she's really been a great senator. everybody looks up to her. she's apparently the most popular person in the state and yet here she says he, meaning rick perry, has definitely made it more difficult for me. i protected texas. i brought texas tax dollars back to texas, very successfully. and i voted for texas values. i didn't think that anyone could turn my success in producing results for texas into a negative. and then the other day she comes home and meets one of her supporters and the guy says, welcome back to texas. she goes nuts. she said, i live here. what is going on, wayne slater, where you do your job as a senator and you're hated for it? >> when was the last time we saw a race -- we do from time to time -- where experience and bringing home the bacon are not

positives, but negatives. that's exactly the way perry has successfully framed this race against hutchison. i was on the bus with her two days ago traveling suburban houston. she did the houston rodeo. and basically she was -- and she was lamenting this fact. look, i'm doing what i was paid to do. i'm doing what i was elected to to and i'm being punished for it. the old saying is, that as we all know, that all politics is local. in this race, certainly in the republican primary in texas, and i think we see it maybe in massachusetts, potentially we may see it in indiana, this year all politics is national. >> you know, i haven't heard this sentiment since 1991 when richard thornberg was challenged harris wafford, where i know the holes of power and all that washington swagger was a big negative for thornburgh. that took 11 to 12 years for the republicans to get people that mad at them. the democrats got people that

mad at them in march of the second year. >> you know, chris, i think you're right. it's a much more abbreviated timetable. >> why are they so mad now? >> i think it's in part at least because of the economic anxieties in the country that exist. people feel the government is doing the wrong things. they don't think the government is looking after them. that said, i think that what you saw with kay bailey hutchison is a fundamental misunderstanding of the electorate. i do think most people win on your experience, you don't win usually in campaigns when you can't in one sentence explain why you're running. the only reason kay bailey hutchison is running is because she thinks it's her time. that's not a compelling message. rick perry is saying, i'm the conservative. you like me. the economy is doing well. why would we want to change. she is fine in washington. kay bailey hutchison never found a smart way to frame the race outside of he's been there too long. and that's not a good argument. >> no. let's go back to wayne. it seems to me you made the point all politics ain't local. look at these other patterns.

let's look at the map of the country right now. look at some of these states coming up where the tea partiers are challenging what we used to consider unbeatable types. like in kentucky, where mitch mcconnell pushed jim bunny out of that race to make room for trey grayson. now trey grayson is under attack from rand paul, the son of ron paul. and then out in arizona, who would have thought john mccain would have trouble getting renominated. he's going to have a real battle on his hands beating j.d. hayworth. down in florida, mark arubio, pat buchanan's favorite boy is already moving ahead of charlie crist down there. charlie crist may have to go run as an independent. wayne, it ain't just local in texas. >> no, it's not. you see this all over the country. the real measure will be who wins in the end. there are a bunch of incumbents in texas who are being challenged from the right. but if none of the incumbents loses, then the tea party didn't really win. if hayworth loses to mccain, then the tea party activists talked and squawked, but didn't actually deliver victory in the

end. we'll see. >> chris, if you needed any evidence that the tea party movement is having some effect on american politics, nancy pelosi on the sunday talk show said democrats have a lot in common with the tea party, too. everybody's trying to get a piece of this group. >> well said. thank you, wayne. great reports. wayne slater, excellent report. thank you chris as always. up next, rod blagojevich, god, this guy is unbelievable, has some advice for the struggling governor of new york, david paterson. that little apple blossom next in the sideshow. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. station... anncr vo: ...call emergency services... anncr vo: ...collect accident information. anncr vo: or just watch some fun videos. anncr vo: it's so easy, a caveman can do it. caveman: unbelievable... caveman: where's my coat? it was suede with the fringe.

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back to "hardball." now to the "sideshow." first up, never mind the birth. j.d. hayworth running against john mccain in the arizona republican primary has been

babying the birther crowd. right after the 2000 election, hayworth wrote a letter to obama saying, he should go back to hawaii and find his complete birth certificate. then last summer, hayworth said on his radio show that questions continue about president obama's citizenship. just a month ago here on "hardball," hayworth said the president needs to come forth with proof he was born in the usa. well, hayworth has just had a change of position. here is on fox. >> i want you to tell the american public how you view the birther movement? is it legitimate? >> look, barack obama's the 44th president of the united states. his election is certified. i believe he was born in hawaii. i made certain statements on the air to provoke conversation. that's what happens in broadcasting. >> whoa. so j.d. played to the birthers to provoke conversation? he challenged the legitimacy of an american president for that reason? is that just food for thought? hay, look, if somebody questioned j.d. hayworth's

americanism, i wonder if he would just do it as provoking a little conversation out there. j.d., it's just what's happening in broadcasting. fat chance you would like it that way. next, live from, no it's david paterson. here is saturday night live's take on the soon to be ex-governor of new york. >> do you have any comment or your unethical activity? >> congratulations, "new york times." you snared the elusive david paterson. finding something wrong with my administration is like finding a needle in a needle store. you found out i was a bad governor? who tipped you off? everyone? >> so tell us, will you be supporting andrew cuomo now? >> i haven't figured out who is going to get the kiss of death yet. but if andrew cuomo wants albany, he can take it. those upstate goblins are going to tear that guy apart and use his blood for their paintings. andrew, if you're in albany, i can recommend a good place to go for dinner, it's called manhattan.

>> just think, this time next year we could have a cuomo as governor of new york and edmund g. brown, that's gerry in this case, as governor of california. change you can believe in. by the way, rod blagojevich, the impeached ex-governor of illinois has his own words of wisdom for governor paterson. here's what he said on fox business channel. >> my advice to governor paterson, and i don't know the circumstances, if he didn't do anything wrong, then you shouldn't quit. you should fight. >> wow. blagojevich up for corruption charges this june. let's see how his advice looks then. i'm not sure how that trial's going to go. for the number tonight this week. house speaker nancy pelosi was asked to rate her performance this past year. her own grade? self-grading here. an "a" for effort. i agree with her in part. she certainly gets an "a" for the inside game. she's masterful as speaker, perhaps not for the outside game. her poll numbers are no match for her roll call numbers.

speaker pelosi's a for efforts for tonight's tough big number. up next, howard dean once said health care reform without the public option was worthless. will he support the president's plan now? that's our question tonight. governor dean's coming to sit here right after the break. you're watching "hardball." woman down from nasal allergy attack.

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i'm lynn berry. here is what is happening. according to "the new york times," former tennessee congressman harold ford jr. has decided not to challenge new york's democratic senator kiersten jill brand for her seat. he has been under intense pressure from democratic party officials. they're worried that a primary race would drain campaign funds and leave the winner vulnerable to a well-financed challenger.

meantime, gerry brown is expected to campaign for a third term more than a quarter century after leaving office. general motors is recall mortgage than a million compact cars after over 1100 complaints about steering failures. and jay leno reclaimed his old job as host of the tonight show nine months after giving it up to conan o'brien. for his first show he was joined by jamie foxx and olympic gold medal skier lindsey vonn. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." president obama is expected to make an announcement. in fact, he will this wednesday about the next stones health care reform. he is going to define where he stands, as it gets closer. former dramatic chairman and

former vermont governor howard dean is also a medical doctor. he has been outspoken on behalf of health care reform. generally he is a consultant with mckenna and wallbiand a contributor to cnbc. now none of that stuff has anything to do with what you're doing here. >> generally not. >> let's talk about this. you railroad on the left. you're a progressive. are you one of the left people who will try to bring down the center of the democratic party? i look at blanche, she is challenged. halter. he is launching a democratic tea party movement against the center. what do you think about that? do you think it's fair game? do you think blanche lincoln is fair game? >> i think anybody is fair game. >> a conservative state that voted for mccain. should she be entitled to vote her state? >> she is entitled to vote however she wants. look, nobody owns the seat here. politics is a --

>> but is there something wrong with somebody representing their conservative state? >> of course not. >> okay. >> but you got to be expected -- other people may have a different point of view. >> so are you a tea partier or the left? >> there is a tea party movement in the left. >> tell me about it. nobody talks about it. i'm going to start you to talk about it. >> 30 seconds or left. we did talk about it last time. you didn't like what i said with the polling in massachusetts. about 18% of all the people who elected scott brown were obama voters. here's an interesting one. district 8 in missouri -- >> i had to check that out the other night. you're right. 60% for obama. so explain. >> on the center right, tea partier, everybody knows about them. you all cover them. on the center left, demoralized, they're mad, they don't think they got the change they asked for, so they stay home. but there is a huge -- i think this movement is more anti-incumbent than it is anti-democrat or republican. the democrats are terrified, they're in power, they're going to have to make tough votes. sours running in missouri i think will knock off jo an emerson.

nobody knows it. it won't show yet. he has been in all 28 counties, 28 jobs. he goes and says to somebody i'm a veteran, running for congress. he's a green beret serving in iraq. first thing out of the box, are you the incumbent? no, sir. you've got my vote. >> let's see if they actually vote that way. >> we'll see. we'll see. >> every time i watched the elections, since i began to watch elections when i was 5 years old, one party wins, one party loses. i keep waiting for this anti-incumbent election. it's either anti-republican or anti-democrat. this time it looks like anti-democrat. >> we're going to find out. >> charlie cook was sitting there a minute ago, he thinks the democrats have lost the house already. they're out of here. >> i think it's unlikely. but who am i to argue with charlie. let me tell you why. if this bill passes, all of a sudden people will rally to it. the american people didn't want more troops in afghanistan. once the president made up his mind and said this is what we're going to do, now the majority supports it. same thing is true with health care. >> when it came to the final

passage of medicare, the republicans joined it. >> sure. >> let's talk about this. coming up in the next couple days, the president of the united states by wednesday is going to stake out his position. speaker pelosi said they're going to pass the senate bill and reconcile in both houses. we know the path now, the democrats are going to take. they have staked out their plan. they've got to do it probably in the next couple weeks. right? >> yep. >> will you men them? >> yeah. >> how? >> i will help them by getting them to pass part of this bill that will be enactable right after the president signs it. you've got to have some piece of this bill that gives people insurance between now and the election in 2010. not between now and 2013. >> what is that? >> what a surprise, a public option that involves expanding medicare. but that's not in the president's plan. >> it may be. >> when? >> it should be. >> if it's not, what are you going to do? >> i'm going to support the bill. but i think it would be a whole lot better -- >> would you support it -- >> i'm going to talk public option until we get one. >> okay. you'll probably publicly criticized the senate bill in december.

let's listen. governor dean. >> this is essentially the collapse of health care reform in the united states senate. honestly, the best thing to do right now is kill the senate bill. >> you can't vote for a bill like this in good conscience. it costs too much money. it isn't health care reform. it's not even insurance reform. >> here you are. >> senate bill hasn't gotten any better. the house bill will make it better. i think that's a good thing. >> how is the senate bill going to be improved so it's not the collapse of the democratic party. have you changed or has the bill changed? >> the bill's going to change because the house won't vote for it unless it does. they made that pretty clear. >> and what's going to happen? so the american people can understand it? >> hopefully some of the ridiculous deal-making will get out of there. hopefully some of the pro insurance -- >> that's all gone. they're going to get rid of the corn husker kickback, the louisiana purchase, all that stuff. they have to. >> of course they do. >> it's been exposed -- >> they're also going to do more on expanding public health choices for medicaid and maybe even medicare. wouldn't that be nice for the american people.

>> so what is your role now? are you a booster of the president in this effort or critic? >> i'm always a booster of the president, whether we agree or disagree. look, i think this -- >> you're beginning to sound like ralph nader outside the debate. you can't get in the debate, and you're outside banging on the door to get in the debate. >> i am in the debate. >> how it is going to happen? the president is not in the public option. it's not in the house bill. the president's not going to put it in. the speaker's not going to put it in. who's going to do what you want done? >> i think the whole bunch of people in the house, whole bunch of progressives in the house, and also 30 senators that would like -- >> that's all called positioning. are they going to have it happen? >> we're going to find out. >> when? >> when the vote comes. >> no, no, the bill is going to be defined and go to the floor as of like wednesday so the president will say what he stands for. >> wait a minute. the president is saying what he stands for, and having a bill on the floor are two very different things. the last time i saw it was okay to amend a billiton floor. >> you will go for a floor amendment? >> i'm not going to go for anything.

>> i don't see the reality of your position emerging here. i don't know how you get from you sitting here saying there is going to be a public option to there being one. >> 82% of the democrats in the united states of america thinks we ought to have a choice of a public option. 82%. >> according to what? >> according to multiple polls that have been done of the democrats. 59% of the american people think there ought to be a public option when you tell them what a public option is. to say how am i going to have anything to do with this debate, all i have to do is stand up with what the majority of the american people want again and again and again. and i'm going to keep doing it. if we don't get it this time, we're going to come back in two years and try to do it again. this issue is not going away. whether it passes, or it doesn't pass. >> and do you believe that you're lobbying for this public option is helping this bill get passed or hurting it? >> i have no idea. >> you have no idea? >> that's mot my worry. >> you're not worried you'll bring the bill down? >> i'm not going to bring the bill down. what we want is a really good

bill, the best bill we can possibly have. if it means we have to put pressure on democrats to get it done, we'll do that. >> you believe this issue is still open? >> i believe it's open. >> thank you for coming on. thanks, governor. we know where you stand. he's for the public option. that's howard dean. federal workers are out of work all thanks to republican senator jim bunning, basically threatening a filibuster. but he does have a point. we're going to hear it. when republicans pay for being obstruction, will they pay? that's ahead in the politics fix. this is "hardball" only on msnbc. has done a lot ofresearch a a lot of work, and we've been open 24 hours a day -- 7 days a week. and we've made a tremendous amount of progress. you know, safety and reliability is top priority. i mean i got a family, too. i got a mother, a grandmoth, kids, nd we all drive in tse cs. i am 100% confident in the product. male announcer ] we're grateful to technicians like ronny who are helpings provide you with fe and reliae vehicles. for mo information, please visit toyota.com.

you'll have to wait another couple of years before there's another kennedy in the congress. joseph p. kennedy iii said over the weekend he will not run for bill delahunt's seat if delahunt requires in massachusetts. the son of former congressman joe kennedy is an assistant d.a. on cape cod. he is only 29 years old. so don't count him out down the road. "hardball" returns after this.

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we're back. time for the politics fix. with and "time" magazine's jane newton small. republican senator jim bunning of kentucky is blocking a funding bill that would extend among other things unemployment benefits because he says it would add $10 billion to the national debt. transportation secretary ray lahood put out a statement saying, "i am keenly disappointed that political games are putting a stop to important construction projects around the country. here's bunning on the floor today. let's listen.

>> if we can't find $10 billion to pay for something that we all support, we will never pay for anything on the floor of this u.s. senate. i have offered several ways to do this, including trying to negotiate with the majority leader staff. none have been successful. >> jay, what's the problem here? this guy, jim bunning, i've always rooted for him, a great philly pitcher and hall of famer in both leagues. what is this guy trying to do? by basically trying to threaten a filibuster, a one-man filibuster? >> he's trying to underline the democrats haven't paid for this $10 billion -- >> so they're borrowing from the chinese, right? >> it's hypocritical. he voted for all kinds of -- he voted against pay-go, but voted for all kinds of unpaid things like the bush tax cuts. so now he's drawing a line arbitrarily.

where it really makes a difference is people are losing unemployment benefits, health insurance, jobs. >> he's being particular about what he finds offensive in terms of deficit spending? >> yes. >> the democratic argument is this is an emergency measure. these benefits run out, and -- >> they're also immensely popular. >> and they're popular. 2,000 people as ray lahood would say who are losing their jobs at the transportation department. and so it's $10 billion in emergency funding. and what he -- jim bunning is being hypocritical, because he voted for two bush wars that were completely on the credit card. and so now he's drawing the line. he's saying it's principle. the other thing is, too, he can make his argument but not giving them a chance to vote. >> here is move of bunning's theory. i have a theory that he has a point. the theory is, why put everything on the credit card, even stuff that everybody on both sides of the -- both parties agree on. if it's something that the american people agree they have to do, it's worthwhile. why do we have to keep borrowing

from the chinese for it? at some point we're going to have a problem here. either raise taxes or cut other spending. if this is vital, take away from something that's not vital. here's senator bunning. let's listen. >> we cannot keep adding to the debt. it's over $14 trillion, and going up fast. if the budget that is before us passes, it will add another $1.5 trillion to the debt. >> what do we make of the guy's personal situation right now, jay? it's dangerous here a little bit. it's a tricky matter. but he's been behaving in a way that's certainly outside the box. apparently he gestured indecently to a bunch of reporters the other day. we can just imagine what that is. i'm not getting into it. but he did so. it was today apparently. what do you make of that? in the senate elevator or something. >> 78 years old, to a bunch of reporters where he flipped them the bird. but he -- look -- >> have you seen that before on

the hill? >> not from a senator, no. >> all right. >> but look, he's 78 years old. he's really bitter about being forced out. he really wanted to run for election. >> mitch mcconnell pushed him out. >> mitch mcconnell pushed him out. >> so he's taking it out on the >> steny hoyer. >> he hasn't spoken to us for months. >> did you witness this gesture of good will? >> no. >> when i've been with him, he is not erratic. >> listen, he missed almost every vote in december 2009. in january 2009, he disappeared for a week and wouldn't say where he was. last time he ran for a senator, he wouldn't go to a live debate with his opponent. instead he did it broadcast from a studio in washington and used a teleprompter. he has shown no interest. "time" magazine, one of the five

worst senators. even before he got into a little tiff with mitch mcconnell. >> at church with my wife. >> you got baseball. >> i like him. i'm sorry. here is vice president biden in florida today. he took a shot at him, saying nice things with him, talking about recovery act projects. it's called stimulus. here is vice president biden talking about jim bung. let's listen. >> one of colleagues stand on the united states senate floor as we speak. he is standing there and he is preventing the senate from being able to move forward on doing the kind of thing we're doing here today. what's that mean? 400,000 people will be kicked off the rolls this month if he has his way. >> that's a strange -- i guess a reconstruction site. you would think the camera guy would have zoomed in on the guy. >> looks like he is speaking from chile or something. >> what do you make of that, the vice president taking this -- so everybody has agreed he's the odd man out. you're suggesting he's a little bit off kilter. >> i'm saying there's been long evidence of that.

listen, where are the senate republicans? one or two kind of defended him. most of them are laying low which is giving the democrats a lot of running room because they can portray this as a republican -- >> are the republican party as a party -- get my verb agreement -- is the republican party in trouble for blatantly looking obstructionist, and why don't they make him play jimmy stewart and say, harry reed say, okay, jim bunning, you stay out there and you talk foreverment because the minute you stop talking we're passing this bill. why doesn't he do that to the guy? >> really the 1964 no hitter jim bunning pitched, in the ninth inning you felt bad for the catcher. was it gus? he called him in to have a break. said come to the mound. i feel really bad for you. no. for some reason, you know, they're not forcing him to filibuster. it's something reid has shied away from. >> why doesn't congress make people play jimmy stewart, make them do the whole all nighter, make him filibuster so the american people see it and say get to work? >> it's a great question. they should.

>> here's what else press secretary robert gibbs was taking a shot at him as well, going after senator bunning here. let's listen. >> i think what we're trying to draw attention to is the fact that hundreds of thousands of people who have lost their job and lost their health care because of that and their unemployment benefits, all of that is threatened because one person has decided to stop the entire process. it's hard to bargain with somebody if you say i won't do that because of this and you say, well, how about we vote on that and you say, i object. >> well, there's something in my being that says when only one guy takes a position and everybody disagrees with him i want to hear what that guy has to say. so you say it is selling in kentucky, his home state. >> i was in kentucky this weekend. i was following rand paul around who's running for the seat. >> "time" magazine still has a budget huh? wonderful. >> i was talking to trey grayson the secretary of state.

out in kentucky. >> he is the guy rung. >> they're both running. both thought it was a great move. both thought, hey, we're finally -- here we are. we're finally talking about fiscal responsibility, talking about, you know -- >> so maybe federal spending that isn't supported by revenue or cut somewhere else and we're headed toward a $20 trillion debt and we owe this money to overseas basically that maybe somebody even if it's a concern of being hypocritical at least somebody is saying -- thank you, ed david corn, i know you don't like to say nice things about philly baseball, but i do. and, jay, thank you. i'll wrap up the show with my only special commentary in a new segment called "let me finish" watching "hardball" only on msnbc. so if you've ever wondered who grew my soup, well, here they are. ♪ so many, many reasons ♪ it's so m'm! m'm! good! ♪

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let me finish with something that's new here on "hardball." well, not entirely new. when i was in grad school i used to head every evening to the about student union building to catch walter cronkite and eric sevareid. this was in the autumn of 1967 and the air was alive with the vietnam war. nobody seemed to care that the young of this country were being sent off to a war that wasn't ever going to end.

then something happened. you can see it every night on the evening news. a soft spoken poet of a senator from minnesota eugene mccarthy announced he would challenge lyndon johnson in the new hampshire democratic primary. every night cronkite would describe the political events of the day and eric sevreid would come on and give it real meaning. he didn't as i recall come out against the war though cronkite did but you knew from the commentaries the importance he gave to mccarthy's campaign. he conveyed the zest and excitement of it all, the history that was taking place, day after day of that great effort up in the snows of new hampshire. well, sevreid was under considerable restraint as a commentator. william paille, who owned cbs wanted there to be just one opinion that mattered at this network, the guy who owned it. that explains why sevareid had to tell both sides of the argument even if it made him in the brilliant estimate of a bartender friend of mine, eric several sides. at msnbc we have more latitude to express a view. i intend to use it at this time each night to inform, illuminate, and yes, incite

reaction. i know from the years of hearing from people who watch me they do it to agree and disagree with me. and i've never seen anybody who watches the show quietly. so let me finish tonight by saying my hope is simple. to give you something to think about and perhaps to react to. join us again tomorrow night at 5:00 and 7:00 eastern for more "hardball." "countdown" with keith olbermann starts right now. good evening from new york. so many of you have been so kind as to ask about the health of my father that i thought i'd provide a brief update before we start tonight's edition of "countdown." in a word, it's improved. not terrific but much better than we thought when last we spoke on wednesday night. i'll be providing a post script to last week's special comment on the subject of my father and health care and the end of life discussion -- the life panel. along with some of the responses to some of the responses a little bit later on in the show. for now, let me turn it over to