>> angry words after health care passes. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm in tonight for chris matthews whose son, michael, got married this past weekend. health care reform, political suicide or both? democrats are hailing last night's passage of health care reform as an historic breakthrough on the scale of social security and medicare. republicans are predicting disaster for the economy and defeat for democrats in november. we'll talk to some democrats and republicans on what it all means and where we go from here. also, we heard reports that the n word was thrown at black democrats and we heard a gay epithet hurled at barney frank. bart stupak was called a baby killer on the house floor. the mood is ugly out there. fallout. one thing president obama gave

up forever last night, the idea of being a post-partisan president. is there any hope of the two parties working together or will every fight look like health care? also, truth and lies. what's really in the bill and the top lies about health care reform. finally, you haven't heard anything until you heard congressman devan nunas of california. >> today we are turning back the clock. for most of the 20th century people fled the ghost of communist dictators and now you are bringing the ghost back into this chamber. >> believe it or not, nunas didn't stop there and we the rest in the side show. we start with the passage of health care reform. let's go to the white house now with linda douglas who is the communications director for the white house office of health reform. thanks for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> what's ryour level of concer or nervousness that the senate doesn't give what you you need to make this a closed deal? >> i think the country have

tired of the tactics and obstruction tactics we saw not too long ago a senator holding up for some time unemployment benefits for americans. we saw another senator who was holding up nominations for needed jobs in the government to do the people's work. you know, the country is tired of all this. certainly this legislation has passed the house of representatives. what we're talking about now is making some improvements that would lower prescription drug costs for seniors, make it more affordable, strengthen consumer protections and get rid of some of the special deals that people didn't like. that's all the senate is voting on. we're confident that they'll move forward. >> linda douglass, this is president obama talking about what's on the senate's plate. let's listen together. >> as momentous as this day is, it's not the end of this journey. on tuesday the senate will take up revisions to this legislation that the house has embraced. these are revisions that have strengthened this law and

removed provisions that had no place in it. some have predicted another siege of parliamentary maneuvering to prevent adoption. i hope that's not the case. it's time to bring the debate to a close. >> what would you say to critics who would today say that democrats are celebrating the passage of something that recent polls suggest most americans didn't really want? >> well, you know, if you ask people about the provisions of the bill, the actual provisions of the bill, the small business tax credits that will help most small businesses afford health insurance, the fact that you can keep your young adult child on your plan until he's 26 years old, the fact that if you have a child with a pre-existing condition that child can get coverage and an adult with pre-exi pre-existing condition will have access to coverage that's not available today. premiums will start to go down. when you tell people what is actually in the legislation,

they are very much in favor of it. they will learn over the course of this year that many of these benefits are going into effect this year. the small business will right away begin to calculate the small business tax credit up to 35% that will them afford health insurance. >> was there a lesson learned about process? the president's approach was to let congress do its own thing and get involved in the 10th or 11th hour. if he had to do it over again, you would say this was a deal would you have had five or six months ago and done something else. what lessons were learned about the approach? >> i would dispute the president got involved in the 10th or 11th hour. the president was deeply involved from the very beginning meeting with dozens and dozens of members of congress speaking to them on the phone and negotiating sessions and one-on-one sessions. you saw him in various meetings including a seven-hour meeting with the leaders of both parties

seeking common ground. it was very important to have the congress be involved in writing the legislation, shaping it based upon his principles which this legislation absolutely is. when you look back at what the president asked for which is lower costs and strengthening consumer protections and reducing the deficit, those are all of the solid principles that the president was seeking from the very beginning. this is absolutely the president's achievement. the president's legislation. the congress has been deeply involved in a tremendous partner. >> linda douglass, congratulations on your success. thank you for being on "hardball." >> bart stupak made the deal that paved the way for victory. let's listen together as you made a statement on the house floor. by now the whole country has heard it. >> those who were shouting out are out of order. >> baby killer.

>> did you hear the words "baby killer" as you spoke? >> yes, i did. >> did you know by whom who had it come? did you know when it was uttered that he was the one who said it? >> no, i did not. i was trying to focus on my speech and comments i wanted to make to the american people so i really didn't know who did it at the time. >> he apologized. have you accepted the apology? >> i accept the apology. it's unfortunate that it gets to this point. we can have personal disagreements on issues but we don't need personal attacks. we have to keep proper decorum. we must be able to conduct ourselves at all time in a professional manner. >> he said, congressman, it wasn't a direct reference to you. how could it not have been? >> when he mentioned same thing to me, i said, i was up there speaking i was making my speech when you indicated that. i certainly took it as a personal attack on me.

he said it wasn't and if that's the case, if it's not directed at me, i think he owes all of the members of the house of representatives an apology. it's in violation of our rules of proper decorum in the house of representatives. maybe randy needs to apologize to the house of representatives. >> congressman, allow me to show everybody the executive order that you were able to negotiate with the white house and i read it today with some interest. it says the act maintains current hyde amendment restrictions governing abortion policy and extends those restrictions to the newly created health insurance exchanges. it seems pretty straightforward. maybe i'm asking the wrong individual. on its face, it would suggest that nothing has changed from hyde. >> correct. hyde applies. i think you are asking the right person since a couple days of negotiations with the white house to get to this final agreement. i appreciate the president and the speaker and the rest of them working with us to get this agreement so we stay true to the principle protecting the

sanctity of life and throughout the debate the president always said i'm not looking to use tax dollars to pay for abortion and to keep current law and that's what we did in this executive order and it has the full force and effect of law. i'm pleased to have played a role to get this hyde language in this legislation through the executive order and vote for health care to help americans because the real winners here are the american people who now have quality affordable health care. >> congressman, to what do you attribute the lack of decorum that we're all familiar with now in washington whether it's the shout-out by joe wilson, "you lie" or shout-out now of "baby killer" those sitting in loungers at home wondering what's to explain all of the shenanigans in washington when it comes to behavior. >> it's not just washington. when we were talking back be and forth this weekend, the protesters who were there and people voicing their opinion very derogatory comments toward

members of congress. people spit on. we lost a sense of civility not just in the congress but in this country. we should respect one another. >> what's driving it? >> i think the polarization of the two parties and it's becomibecome ing acceptable. let's have a reasonable conversation. i wanted to protect the sanctity of life. i held to that principle. we were able to work through it and achieve a common goal to help the american people have affordable, quality health care and i'm pleased we were able to do it. >> have you given consideration -- it's funny for me to say this. i'm a talk radio host by day and spend time doing this sort of thing. have you given consideration to the role of talk radio and cable

outlets beoth on the left and right that they have this artificial view of america and then you folks go down to washington and you emulate what you hear on the radio or see on tv. >> well, i hope we don't emulate it. maybe talk radio and 24 news ought to tone it down. by biggest regret on this debate is the issue was about abortion and all about abortion instead of the quality provisions that are in this health care bill which really is there and designed to help the american people. i'm proud of the legislation. i look forward to the president signing it soon and senate doing their job. let's talk about the positive aspects instead of whether you are red, blue, green, whatever as president obama says we're not red states, blue states, we're americans and we have to work together. >> what level of concern do you have, sir, that what you were able to negotiate isn't going pass senate muster and the abortion issue will come back on

reconciliation? >> first of all, the senate has pledged there will be no changes. we can't have any changes. otherwise everything falls apart and we go back to square one. secondly, the senate has no impact on the executive order because that's between the president and the american people as he issued that executive order. i'm confident the senate will do their job, pass those fixes we put in there and get it to the president and let's get those good consumer protection provisions signed immediately into law to help the american people. >> congressman bart stupak, thank you for being on "hardball." we appreciate it. >> thanks, michael. >> let's go to the gentleman who will have to sell this electorally speaking. the republicans are left aligned with tea party protesters some who spewed racial and gay epithets at democrats over the weekend. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. it feels like a line, but protects like a pad. because it absorbs 10 times more.

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a slew of events to pump up health care reform. look at the average of all polls on the issue of whether americans like the plan. just over 50% say they don't like it versus 43% who do. with the midterm elections just over seven months away, democrats want those numbers to start turning around soon. "hardball" returns after this.

>> those who are shouting out are out of order. >> baby killer. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was texas republican congressman randy neugebauer yelling baby killer during the health care debate. an ugly moment on the house floor. the same place where joe wilson yelled out "you lie" at president obama last year. is the kind of rhetoric that's out of line and common place in washington? republican congressman from georgia is an obstetrician and

member of the energy committee. what explains the behavior that we're all seeing? >> michael, glad to be with you. joe wilson and randy neugebauer are good people. we have to remember there's a certain decorum and respect and those members of course apologiz apologized for blurting out those remarks. >> those two incidents took place inside the capitol. let me show you jim clyburn today with something that happened outside of the capital. >> john lewis was called the n word more than once and two other members heard those words being used. when you look at the signs painted out there putting hitler like mustache on president obama and other things that carried double meanings, you know that

much of this was not about heal care at all. all of this was about people who have been led to believe that for somebody else to get insurance coverage would take something from them. that's the craziest notion that i've ever heard but that's what people seem to feel. >> congressman, is it fair to hold the gop leadership for the conduct of some of the tea party activities outside that representative clyburn was just discussing? >> the tea party actors don't even represent themselves as republicans. they have a policy in regard to what they stand for but i mean when you have literally thousands -- i don't know. there may have been 25,000 people on saturday and i stopped and spoke to many of them and they are good red blooded americans and good honest people who travel thousands of miles in some instances and some drove and some took buses. they're frustrated.

in every crowd you'll get someone that goes over the line in regard to their remarks that they shout out or the signs that they carry. i think jim clyburn who is a good friend, i respect the majority whip, and john lewis in my own delegation, the senior member of the georgia delegation, is a great human being. i think they understand that people sometimes get out of line but they're not representative certainly of the republican party and i don't think of the tea party movement in general. >> former bush speech writer david from wrote in his column we follow the most radical voices in the party and the movement and they led us to abject and it has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. your response to that, sir? >> michael, i don't agree with that. quite honestly when you look at

all of the social networking sites that members are now using whether we're talking about facebook, youtube, twitter, watch 24-hour cable news whether their favorite is msnbc or cnn or fox news, i think people are just so much more informed today whether their favorite is glenn beck or rachel maddow. it's a good thing and we members have to understand that the people on the street, we the people, are much better informed today and members of congress can't come up here and get away with the shenanigans that they got away with 25 or 30 years ago. that's a good thing. it's a cleansing of the system. we have to be responsible to the people because we're sent here to represent them and voice their concerns and vote what it is they want us to vote on and when you cram something down their throats which 60% of them are saying they don't want, then obviously members of going to have to go back in the fall elections and answer to those

votes. >> isn't the challenge for the gop headed toward november to harness the passion from the tea party activists but not to let the knuckle heads speak for republicans? >> i think i agree with you on that. absolutely. i think that is true. i think the democrats are the same way. they have their few knuckleheads in their camp, as well. >> let me show you michael steele on "meet the press" and we'll listen together. >> it's not a danger to be associated with the tea party movement. it's certainly not a reflection of the movement or the republican party when you have idiots out there saying very stupid things. >> saying the same thing that you offered a moment ago. >> we're all subject to saying idiotic things including me and michael steele for that matter and the two republican members that you mentioned earlier in the clip. we have to be very careful, of course, of what we say because we're held responsible but john q. public out there has come

thousands of miles to be on the west lawn of the capitol. i don't think we can hold them quite to the same standards but they're not representative of we the people. >> one other thing if i may. i looked at the medicare vote. when medicare became law there were 65 republican votes. when social security became low, 77 republican votes. what's changed? >> i don't think anything has changed. we had a bipartisan vote in this particular instance and quite a few democrats, maybe 25 in this final passage of hr-3590 voted against the bill. >> no republicans. not a single republican vote much unlike medicare and social security. >> well, i think the republican party realized that we had a better idea, a better plan. we tried to present that to the president at the blair house when he had the health care summit. i'm a physician with 31 years of

experience. we have many physicians on the republican side totally shut out. no opportunity to lend our expertise and doctor/patient relationship and i think we could have helped tremendously and made this an easier process for the president and democratic party had we been included. >> i have former senate republican leader bill frist talking about the repeal possibilities. listen to this. >> it will most likely be a campaign of repeal. repeal is not going to happen but it's clear for the american people and clear for the people who are out there, republicans did not support this type of reform, so i think that's what they'll be saying. >> is that the goal to retake the house and senate and reverse all this? >> the goal is to retake the house and senate. i think there's a distinct possibility because of the overreach of the democratic party since they gained control in january of '07 in this first year and a half of the obama

administration, american people are outraged. they're not happy necessarily with the republicans either. i think we have a great opportunity to take control both in the house and the senate in november. now, i don't necessarily stand here and say we should repeal everything that's in 3590. i think youngsters up to the age of 26 should be included on their parents' policy. i see no reason why we shouldn't continue the exchanges for people to purchase health insurance if they can't get it through their employer and the income is not low enough to make them eligible for one of the safety net programs, and to have subsidies for the very low income. i do take exception to expanding medicaid to 133% and forcing it upon every state that's suffering so badly. the my own state of georgia is $1.5 billion in arrears and we have a constitutional amendment as do 40 other states that we have to balance our budget. there's no way with this added mandate of medicaid that we can

survive that. there are a number of things in the bill particularly the forcing of individuals under the penalty of law to purchase health insurance and not only to purchase but purchase that which is prescribed by the federal government. i'm sure that's unconstitutional. >> those who are being forced to pay for it, we're paying for it when they show up in an e.r. >> this is true. we should lower the cost and encourage people to have coverage. they don't necessarily -- particularly young, healthy people taking care of themselves, why should we force them when they can't afford it under the penalty of law to buy first dollar coverage. encourage them to get these high deductible but low premium policies that do give them catastrophic coverage and let them combine that with the health savings account. >> thank you, sir, for being here. i appreciate it. >> michael, thank you so much. >> up next, we heard critics use a lot of hyperbole to describe

the health care reform bill but devin nunes may have taken the cake. there's more where that came from next in the side show. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. here, kitty! here, kitty! oh, just come snuggle with momma! missing something? now at sears optical, get 2 pairs of glasses for $99.99. with bifocals just $25 more per pair. sears optical. don't miss a thing. to finish what you started today. for the aches and sleeplessness in between,

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>> back to "hardball" and now for the side show. we saw a lot of fiery floor speeches on health care last night. none, however, topped that of california republican congressman devin nunes when it came to soviet references. >> today we are turning back the clock. for most of the 20th century people fled the ghosts of communist dictators and now you are bringing the ghosts back into this chamber. today democrats in this house will finally lay the cornerstone of their sociali isist utopia oe

backs of the american people. say no to socialism. say no to this bill. >> ghosts of communist dictators, socialists utopia, is this kind of overheated rhetoric that makes bipartisanship impossible. in yesterday's "the washington post" newt gingrich called the health care bill a radical social experiment. hold on. lbj shattered the party with civil rights legislation? civil rights did hurt democrats in the south, can you really argue that it wasn't the right thing to do? or that long-term it wasn't the right thing for the democratic party to do? is this really the historical analogy that gingrich wants to make? cbs' katie couric asked rahm

emanuel to account for his foul mouth. >> why do you have such a foul mouth? didn't your mom ever wash your mouth out with soap? >> i read a piece in "time" magazine about how swearing is good for your mental health. >> do you swear in front of the president? >> i have cursed before but i do not curse in the oval office. >> ever? >> i probably have done it once in the time we've been here. >> does he curse? no comment. >> look, you know, i will go to the grave with my secrets. time for the big number. these past few weeks we saw the president take ownership of health care reform. according to a white house tally, how much direct pitches did president obama make to democratic house members? 92. no question that helped push the bill past the finish line.

president obama made 92 direct appeals to wavering house democrats. tonight's very telling big number. up next, we'll do a fact checking on the health care reform bill. what will it actually do? and what does it mean for the typical american? that's ahead. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. e your stress. ( sneezes ) handle your allergies. and get inspired. the new walgreens.com features health shops for diabetes, blood pressure, weight loss, and more. get information and solutions in one place. walgreens.com, where your daily life and better health just click. now buy one bottle of vitamins and get one free. visit today. walgreens.com. there's a way to stay well. reach retirement age. and they are rewriting what it means to retire. at merrill lynch, we have over 15,000 financial advisors

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i'm diana olick with your cnbc market wrap. the dow jones industrials climbing nearly 44 points. s&p 500 up six points and the nasdaq adding 21 points. >>. >> hospital operators and drug maker like merck and pfizer ending higher now that it's clear the companies will see more customers. health insurers finished mixed.

aetna holding onto a slight gain. humana pulling back 1%. looking outside of the health care sector, citigroup on fire adding more than 3.5% on an enthusiastic ratings upgrade. citi is poised to return to its former status as a "money making machine." and household products retailers william sonoma soaring more than 12% after beating expectations. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." the health care debate has been notable for the lies surrounding it as the effort that it took to get it done. there is now a published list of

the top facts you should know about health care reform. there's no new benefits for illegal immigrants. the access they have to emergency care will stand but nothing new. the government will not pay for elected abortions. this is not a take over of health care like the canadian or british models. i love the list. i rely on it. we should note you folks won a pulitzer prize for your efforts. >> we did. >> the plan is not a government takeover like the canadian and british system? how do we differ? >> in britain doctors are employees of the government. in canada the government picks up all of the bills for medical care. here people will continue to buy insurance either on their own or get it through work just like usual. medicare stays in place. what's new is more regulation for insurance companies. and that's especially key for people who have to go out and buy insurance on their own. it's called the individual market. >> how about this one.

on the abortion issue, the government will not pay for elective abortions. i saw congressman chris smith on television yesterday incensed because he said differently. >> activists on both sides are unhappy with how the plan deals with the abortion issue. we looked at this very carefully. there are detailed accounting rules within the legislation that say if someone gets help from the government to buy a plan but also puts up their own money, the insurance companies have to keep those funds separate. we think it's a credible case. again, activists on both sides not so thrilled with it. but it does seem to be a compromise. >> play devil's advocate. what is the argument from those who say, no, federal moneys will be used for abortion? >> well, the argument is the government is hosting this exchange. the government is giving people part of the money to buy their health insurance policy and the people who are opposed to this just say the government should keep its distance completely from the issue and that policies

should not be sold to cover abortion on the exchange. >> illegal immigrants will have no more benefits under the health care reform plan than they already have. >> there are long standing laws on the books that say if illegal immigrants show up in emergency rooms and they are critically ill, they must be treated. those laws remain in place. again, talking about individuals who qualify for assistance from the government to get a little bit of help buying their own policies, illegal immigrants will not be eligible for that. >> also a list of the top lies about health care reform. and here are a few. bureaucrats will dictate what treatment people will get and what plan they must buy. that's not true. preventive care will save the health care system money. research shows that the benefits of additional screening don't outweigh the costs and it bans private insurance in favor of a government run plan. let's deal with the first of

those. >> bureaucrats cannot dictate treatment for individual patients. i don't want to imply that the plan is bureaucrat free. there are boards that will study treatments for effectiveness. they will publish the results of their studies. medicare. there will be a board there to look at what is the most effective treatments. we've seen chain e-mails that imply bureaucrats will look at individual health care records and that's not the case. >> how about preventive care saves the health care system money. i've heard that time and again. >> this is a nice idea that's just not true. the idea being that if you give people more care at the front end you'll save money that you can pay for itself. it doesn't work that way. there have been some very rigorous medical studies that show if you want to give people more care and screenings, that you do have to find money to pay for that. it doesn't pay for itself over

the long haul systemwide. >> here's another lie according to the research. this plan bans private insurance in favor of a government run plan. >> private insurance remains in place. it is regulated much more heavily. insurance companies will be told the minimum standards that they have to include in all plans. private insurance very much stays in place and the public option, this idea of one plan that would be run by the government, that didn't make it into the final bill. this public option did not survive the legislation process. >> if folks want to see more of the research that you've done, they would go where? >> we have many details on this policy and a lot of these issues are very complicated. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> up next, much more on the political fallout on the passing of health care reform. who wins and who loses? this is "hardball" only on msnbc. >> look at how this bill was written. can you say it was done openly?

with transparency and accountability? without backroom deals and struck behind closed doors? hidden from the people. hell no you can't. >> shame on us. shame on this body. shame on each and every one of you who substitute your will and your desires above those of your fellow countrymen.

how do we know how how mmany roads we need?e, the census helps us know exactly what we need, so everyone can get their fair share of funding. we can't move forward until you mail it back. 2010 census. president obama is set to sign the landmark health care reform bill tomorrow and already republican attorneys general from 11 states are planning on filing suit against it. the ags held a conference call and agreed that a multistate lawsuit would send the strongest signal and they plan to file once the president signs the bill. no coincidence that some of the ags pushing for a legal challenge including florida's and california's are running for governor this year. "hardball" returns right after this. [ female announcer ] the latest athletic fabrics inspired stayfree®

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>> i want to thank every member of congress who stood up tonight with courage and conviction to make health care reform a reality. i know this wasn't an easy vote for a lot of people. it was the right vote. i want to thank speaker nancy pelosi for her extraordinary leadership. >> welcome back to "hardball." time now for the politics fix. after a year of fighting, negotiating and conjoeling, health care reform passed last night. what's been the political fallout?

richard, were any of those republican votes ever up for grabs? >> there was probably a point early on, i think, when some of them were in play but they closed that door pretty quickly and you can read about it now. mitch mcconnell had a very effective strategy to block this whole idea of barack obama being a bipartisan leader and i think that's why the health care summit was so important. not because anyone's minds were changed but because the president looked reasonable and open to republican ideas. that itself was a message to the general voters but the votes themselves as a legislative proposition on health care absolutely not. >> if you were charting, eugene rob robinson, when the president turned a corner, was it the

blair house? >> it did present the president as the reasonable guy in the room. signal number one he would persist on health care and perhaps gave some impious to the process. that was probably the moment when things turned in the administration's favor. >> gentlemen, the world in which i spend my daytime hours, the world of talk radio, republicans find this appalling and say it will be more of new jersey, more of virginia, and more of massachusetts. three examples of elections won by the gop since this president was elected. here by way of example. rush limbaugh on his show today. let's all listen. >> they must, my friends, be

hounded out of office. every democrat that voted for this needs to know safe district or not they are going to be exposed and hassled and chased from office. we need to defeat these bastards. we need to wipe them out. >> richard, who wins politically based on the vote last night in the house looking toward november? >> well, i think a lot depends on where you think november is going to be fought. if it's about base turnout, the anger you heard from rush is more helpful -- not just helpful to rush limbaugh and his audience it gets the base motiva motivated. the conservatives have done a good job of doing that. people on the left have found a reason to believe again and a reason to go out there and vote. they feel like 2008 meant something. and also pthey are rallied up b rhetoric from the conservatives.

where this debate may get fought is on independents. not on soft republicans but on the real independents who may be turned off by the anger looking for something more positive and more positive agenda and that's why the white house has room to grow. i'm not saying they'll definitely get them with health care but they have a positive message and agenda to go out and sell to people in 2010 and i'm not sure that saying this is about tyranny and socialism and evils that are going to come down from the dictator barack obama, i don't think that's really going to be an effective platform. >> eugene, i hear from many callers who also send e-mails saying the democrats today are crowing about something that the majority of americans didn't want passed. >> well, keep in mind that those polls that show 53% or 57% of americans oppose to the health care bill included some percentage that thought it didn't go far enough.

i do think that democratic base is heartened by this result. it's once again, change you can believe in. and i think that was -- that was a crucial element from the democratic point of view, that has been missing the past few months. there was a sense that it wasn't happening, and that -- to the extent that it does give democrats a reason to go out and a reason to fight for their candidates in the fall. you know, i think that's positive for democrats. look, either way we expect the democrats to lose seats. it's an off-year election and that's what one would expect. the question is their attempt to mitigate those losses. >> is this now the standard by which future votes are going to be judged? immigration, education, energy, three things, richard wolffe, coming up in the near future. can we expect a unified

republican front and not a single vote for whatever this administration's agenda might be? >> well, i think the first test is going to come on financial reform. where there was a lot of work going on between the parties in the senate. that seems to have broken down. it's going to be interesting watching that politics play out. it's a mirror image of health care. are republicans going to side with the big industrial commercial players in this case, big banks, and are they going to side with insurers on the health care side of things? there are still people talking across the aisle. energy and climate change. there were 14 senators in the white house just before the health care vote, and half of them were republicans. there are pieces of energy and climate change that there is still bipartisan support for. so i don't think you can say as some journalist did today that the era of bipartisan votes is over. people were voting together before this. i think they'll do it again. i think the calculation is a built more complex than saying,

well, holding together and opposing everything obama does is a path for victory for republicans. there are going to be questions marks today about whether that's rise. >> who bends first if there's an accommodation to be reached in the future? >> here's what i think is going to happen. i think harry reid, for example, in the senate, a few weeks ago found an issue that on which he could split the republican vote. jobs. the jobs bill. i think he's going to be looking for issues in which he can repeat that trick and framing these coming big issues or trying to frame them in such a way that he can carve off some republicans or at least make it very difficult for them to hold together the way they held together on health care. >> do either of you know, speaking of process in the vote that was taken last night, when and how there was a change in position over the weekend they would not go the slaughter position or deem and pass route? i was here for chris friday

night, asked steny hoyer how they were going to get it done, shared with him concerns i heard from people who said it sounded nefarious. in the end it was a straight up and down vote. >> you know, white house people thought from the beginning this was -- this was a stretch. that in any case this would be a vote, this would be treated and cast as a vote for or against health care. so there was no real dodge going on that would survive until november. i think the impracticality of that sort of played itself out. through the weekend. >> yeugene, when was the criticl milestone over the weekend when they made that decision? >> it seems to me to be -- there was a point, perhaps, early on saturday when the democrats became more confident of not only ultimately being able to get the votes, work out some sort of accommodation with stupak and the pro-life

democrats, but also to survive just an up or down vote on the senate bill that so many house members didn't like. and i'm not quite sure what the specific assurances were, but there was a point at which the mood changed. and they became -- >> got it. >> -- willing to take the gamble. >> eugene robson, richard wolffe, thanks for being here. when we return, i'll have thoughts about a big question on the minds of many americans. will the new health system apply to average folks the same way it does to members of congress? [ children laughing ] suitcase? huh? ♪ where do gummy bears hide? under the seat. look! yeah! ♪ [ telephone rings ] [ male announcer ] the all new chevy equinox. [ man ] guess who? dad! [ man ] enjoy the trip! okay, daddy! [ laughter ] [ male announcer ] a consumers digest best buy. with a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. it takes you farther... and brings you closer.

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i'll have what she's having. moviegoers no doubt remember that famous line from "when harry met sally" in a scene, a similar sentiment has been on the minds of many americans who watched house speaker nancy pelosi and her colleagues during the health care debate. they wonder whether this new health care system will apply to members of congress, their staff, and their families, the way that it applies to the rest of us. i posed that question both to president obama and secretary kathleen sebelius in separate interviews last summer. neither convinced me they then fully appreciated its importance to the american people. more recently, though, the administration seemed to get the message. quote, for the first time uninsured individuals, small businesses, they'd have the same kind of choice of private health insurance that members of congress get for themselves. that's what the president said in the days leading up to

yesterday's vote. so is it true? yes, if you can find section 13-12 of the senate legislation. here's how it reads. requirement, the only health plans that the federal government may make available to members of congress and congressional staff shall be health plans that are created under this act or offered through an exchange established under this act. that needle in the haystack is one that reform proponents should have highlighted earlier. instead the wrangling and posturing over health care served largely to widen the gulf many americans see between themselves and washington. for six hours a day on two separate radio programs i take calls from people all over the country. the feeling i get is many americans think the rules in washington are different from the rules everywhere else. those crafting the overhaul did little to convince americans otherwise until final hours. section 1312 may not have gotten the attention the stupak amendment did. the importance of helping americans believe they can have what congress is havi