that long-anticipated first step toward erasing the distinctions between cable and broadcast, at least for entertainment programs? >> i certainly think they're interpreting it that way. this is a signature network star moving to cable. that's a big deal. jon stewart's pretty big, though. he's done the oscars. for tbs it's enormous. they said something along the line we hope this brings creative talent to us, from people who say, conan went there, maybe we will too. >> will they roll out a prime timelineup to precede this and erase the idea of reruns of any kind on that network? >> i think they have a long way to go for that. they have original shows but they're all comedy. there would have to be sitcoms around the clock. they won't do as well as repeats. those sitcoms are not identifiable particularly right now, but let's face it basic cable is making more money than network now, they have two revenue streams and they'll use

that money. >> last question, you implied what fox was likely to sort of stick with the way things are. is that what they want to do or will they look long-term to something like conan o'brien in the future? >> i think they're really disappointed not to get conan. the entertainment side is disappointed. they thought this was an opportunity to get a big established star. they can't put a nonestablished star in there and they're thinking late night may never happen for them as a network show. >> bill carter from eugene, oregon, where he's going to be at the first conan o'brien comedy tour night. great thanks, bill, and enjoy the show. >> thanks a lot, keith. that's "countdown" for this, the 2,538th day since the previous president declared mission accomplished in iraq. i'm keith olbermann, good night and good luck. and now, with the attorney general of virginia as scheduled to attend tea party rallies and faith healing sessions, ladies and gentlemen, here to don a protective tin foil hat on

behalf of us all is rachel maddow. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, keith. i've had so many tin foil halts over the years i actually have them lined up by size. >> great idea. they matched which pair of glasses on a given day? >> that's exactly it. >> excellent. >> conspiracies i have known, hairstyles i have worn. thank you, keith. i appreciate it. and thanks to you at home for tuning in. tonight, nuclear news that is not just about treaties and diplomacy, but is about earthquakes and secret missions and cranes almost dropping huge containers of unstable radioactive material. good times. tonight, as keith said, faith healing makes its debut in the right wing effort to repeal health reform. yes, i said faith healing. and because it's come up again, we will preview tonight "the mcveigh tapes." it's a documentary, egs exclusive, only here and it's incredible stuff. but where we begin tonight is in

the middle of the 8.8 magnitude quake in chile, the biggest in 50 years. what we did not know at the time of that quake is that in the middle of that giant quake there was a team of american officials inside that country, inside chile on a top-secret mission to save the world from nuclear disaster. sounds mellow dramatic, right? it's actually not an exaggeration. in the days before that earthquake hit, a team of u.s. officials were in chile on a mission to secure 40 pounds of radioactive, highly enriched uranium. they were to obtain it, secure it, and transfer it safely to the united states all in secret. this 40 pounds of highly enriched uranium was being stored at two facilities. 40 pounds of the stuff is considered to be enough to destroy part of a major city if it were detonated, which would not be the hardest thing in the world to do. so you obviously can't pick this stuff up, throw it in a suitcase

and hop on a plane to the united states, officials had to extract the uranium racks from this ionized pools they were stored in. they then transferred them into specially-designed casks lined with steal. 60 tons of metal were used to secure just 40 pounds of uranium. package and handle this stuff the wrong way and you can set off a spontaneous nuclear chain reaction. "time" reports it was 12 hours after the team got the uranium into those casks and surrounded it with 1500-pound protective impact limiters, just 12 hours after that the giant 8.8 impact, aka earthquake, hit. well packed for shipping, the uranium was safe in the quake. if there had been a spontaneous nuclear reaction, you probably would have heard about it by now. but the earthquake did render totally unusable, the port that

the scientists were going to use to ship out this secret nuclear cargo. after a reconmission that involved the head of the chilean agency personally driving himself to one uranium site to check on its safety, the scientists worked through the night to find a new escape route. they decided to use a port 50 miles to the north of the one they initially planned. cue a dark of night convoy through the earthquake ravaged country side with no electricity in a desperate attempt to get this uranium out of the country safely, all while keeping it safely. despite aftershocks, the uranium made it to the new port safely. but then, more drama. one of the cranes being used -- look at this. one of the cranes being used to hoist this unstable, highly radioactive material on to the american ship malfunctioned. sent the container swinging, flying out of control just yards above the deck.

ultimately, they regained control, and the uranium was loaded on to two specially-outfitted double hulled american ships. they put it on two ships so they would have split the material so neither of the ships would be carrying enough highly enriched uranium to make a bomb. they shen embarked on a 2 1/2 week coast guard trip through the panama canal. ultimate destination, south carolina, where the uranium is painstakingly converted to safer, nonweapons grade fuel. with the moratorium ending on telling the story of chile's uranium in the earthquake, today in washington, leaders of 47 countries gathered for the biggest summit in the united states in more than six decades. it's a two-day gathering aimed at addressing the issue at global nuclear security. and right at beginning of day one of the summit, some results to be announced. >> today ukraine announced a

landmark decision to get rid of all of its stockpile of highly enriched uranium by the time of the next nuclear security summit in 2012. >> ukraine will eliminate its entire stockpile of highly enriched uranium. after press secretary robert gibbs made that announcement, president obama and the ukrainian president released a joint statement, quote, president yanukovych announced ukraine's decision to ged rid of all of its stockpiles while the united states will provide necessary technical and financial assistant to support this effort. sound familiar? the united states will provide technical and financial assistance. hopefully this time, minus the earthquakes. there's actually no guarantee that like chile ukraine will send us their highly enriched uranium but it's not out of the realm of possibility. united states is doing this sort of thing because we want to secure all the dangerous,

highly-enriched uranium that's out there in the world. so far some countries are interested in letting us take it off their hands. having hundreds of pounds just lying around not only presents the risk of it accidentally detonatin detonating, it could fall into the wrong hands. the head of the chilean nuclear agency told the associated president, quote, we are happy to see it government countries normally don't want to be loaded with waste from other countries. but to put it in a safe place is valuable for everybody. the bush/cheney administration did expand u.s. efforts to lock down loose nuclear material. but the obama/biden administration has put those effort nooz overdrive. the president making this very ambitious pledge last year. >> today i am announcing a new international effort to secure all vulnerable nuclear material around the world within four years. we will set new standards,

expand our cooperation with russia, pursue new partnerships, to lock down these sensitive materials. >> he set that four-year clock a year ago. that means three years to go. the reason this is a priority for the united states is because of the very real threat that this stuff can be stolen and used in some sort of nuclear armed act of terrorism. so taking highly enriched uranium from other countries helps eliminate the chance it will fall into the wrong hands. and for the chance there is a black market for this stuff, it reduces the supply of it. so even if there is a black market, at least that black market will be very expensive. this is a dangerous mission. but the united states is taking the lead role on it. president obama holding summits like today's to cajole countries that have it and he's proposing a 67% increase in the budget of the agency that goes on these cloak and dagger earth quake missions to get it. everybody thought health reform would be president obama's lasting presidential legacy.

health reform, i'd like to introduce you to your very dramatic international match. joining us now is pulitzer prize winning reporter, ron suskind. ron, great to see you back here. thanks for coming back on the show. >> nice to be back. >> are we able to safely take care of this stuff once it's brought back to the united states? do we have the technical know-how to take care of it? >> i actually think we do. this plan of getting uranium or plutonium from around the world and saying we can house it safely here. we're a safe repository, we'll take it off your hands is a new concept to deal with this really impenetrable issue of what to do in a world that is really awash with uranium and plutonium. it's a real problem for humanity. >> how did countries like chile and ukraine get it in the first place? >> some of them have nuclear facilities, reactors. of course it's used a fuel to drive those reactors.

in the case of ukraine, apparently some of these -- the uranium was in weapons that were once housed in the ukraine, soviet weapons that were then sent back to russia. you know, there's lots of ways countries end up with this stuff in their hands. but i think what you find when you go around the world that all of them deep down are saying, you know, i don't think it's really safe here. you deal in this issue, rachel, with the sort of fine line between will and capability. there are many country that's say we have the will to wrap this stuff up, to protect it, but do they have the capability if a well-armed terrorist group finds a lightly guarded store of uranium. the fact is a view of the world, black markets and above board markets where the uranium is sitting shows much of the uranium around the world is loosely guarded and that is an enormous threat. that's why the obama administration has stepped up. to be sure, they've gone beyond the bush administration quite dramatically. >> i know you've done a lot of

reporting on the black market in this area. when president obama said that al qaeda not only wants nuclear material, they would not be hesitant to use it, the implication is that the black market is where they would be trying to get it. is he right? is there good evidence that they are seeking this sort of material to use as a weapon? >> there is no doubt that al qaeda is seeking highly-enriched uranium and fissile plutonium as well. i think that's even more of a threat, to do the nuclear device that the world fears, that everybody fears. you know, there have been more than three dozen incidents, significant black market incidents in the last decade. and frankly, many of them are coming through russia, south owe ser se south ossetia, there's uranium floating around in that part of the world. and the fact is most people say, if it comes from anywhere, it will probably come from there. >> is there a qualitative

difference between what president obama and his administration is doing on the subject and what the bush/cheney administration did? the president now asking for a fairly large increase in the budget to do these sorts of projects. but is there a difference in the quality of the approach, the types of resources being brought? >> there's no doubt they brought up resources. in a way, the obama administration brought it out the the sunlight to say, people are afraid, they have the right to be afraid. we need to work together in concert because this is a problem for all states. remember, the real threat are the nonstate actors, the terror networks. in a way they're a challenge to all state-based power. and to force and diplomacy that states work together or against one another. what you've got here, the new entrant are the nonstate actors. we probably in our lifetime, what is being attempted today and what will be unfolded in the

next year or two, we probably will face a nuclear-armed terror network in our lifetime. imagine the disaster that that pour tends for all states, much less a state that is the target of it. that might well be the united states. that's why this initiative, and actually it's quite heartening. i mean, 47 nations coming to the united states saying, look, we need to solve this problem. that is an enormous step forward. what solutions will emerge from this summit? certainly already with the chinese and the iranians, the breaking news that china is now behind sanctions for iran, i think it shows that people are ready to say this is not a state versus state issue. this is an issue of all states versus the threat of nuclear terrorism. >> i think you're exactly right, and i think that's very well put, and i think it's something that we haven't yet gotten around to figuring out as americans, that this is a new leadership role that our country is taking in the world but we're seeing it unfold before our eyes.

ron suskind, author of "the way of the world", thanks for joining us tonight. >> nice to be here. aside from the business of, you know, saving the planet from nuclear terrorism, this big conference in washington is also an opportunity for many visiting world leaders to finally meet president obama. a lot of them. in very quick succession. it was like a line dance over there. and confederate history month and faith healing. spring time in virginia. stick around. ng something? like 2 pairs of bifocals for $149.99 at sears optical, with progressive lenses for just $25 more per pair. hurry in to sears optical today and don't miss a thing.

because with national, i roll past the counter... and choose any car in the aisle. choosing your own car? now that's a good call. go national. go like a pro.

as the 15th anniversary of the oklahoma city bombing approaches, there's news tonight about the recently raided hutaree militia. we will preview some of the never-before-aired jailhouse interviews with timothy mcveigh. the talks about things that motivated him to do what he did and what exactly happened on april 19, 1995 in oklahoma city. that report is coming up. please stay tuned.

i really tried to find it, but turns out there's nothing funny about nuclear nonproliferation conferences. except maybe one thing. president obama welcoming 47 world leaders to washington for this nuclear summit, maybe the biggest gathering of world leaders convened by a u.s. president since 1945 at the san francisco conference that founded the united nations. and now president obama is the host. so as the host, he had to have one-on-one bilateral leaders, they came all this way, respect must be shown, and a president's

got to do what a president's got to do, which was sort of a version of speed dating diplomacy today. did you see his schedule today? small talk with the whole big wide world. ♪ >> prime minister singh, i haven't seen you since when? >> since those imposters showed up at the state dinner in my honor. >> right. right. sorry about that. >> did they get a reality show? i don't get cable. >> so how are things in kazakhstan. >> we didn't find borat either. >> me either. >> so you're hosting the world cup. >> we call it soccer. >> we call it fut ball. >> i've got to keep it moving here. >> good luck jonathan. >> i get that a lot. >> king abdullah, how did your bracket work out? >> i had syracuse.

>> so how long are you in town for? not long, got to get back to kiev. >> i'm pressed for time. will you be willing to send us all your highly-enriched uranium? >> let me think. okay. >> president hu, how's everything in beijing? >> gigantic and increasingly menacing. >> right. i knew that. >> that's probably not what anybody said. but the president did cram in ten meetings of various lengths in two days, all heavily protocoled. equal time for india and pakistan, and the delicate dance of telling the leaders they would not be meeting the president but the vice president. diplomacy and protocol sometimes result in abnormal and sometimes funny human behavior. but the manic schedule of sit-down meetings, the entire errant prize of bringing 47 world leaders to the united states to try to build an international consensus on

anything represents something big. and fundamentally different about this american government. in the old days, which in this case began in 2001 and officially ended on january 20th, 2009, in the old days we had a very different approach to international agreements of any kind. for example, in one week in july 2001, the bush administration abandoned the united nations draft accord that sets out ways to enforce the 1995 biological weapons convention, we refused to join 178 other nations who agreed to implement the 1997 kyoto treaty on carbon emissions and forced changes to a u.n. pact to stun illegal flow from guns and signed off only blocking two key provisions that would have restricted arms owned by civilians and those sold to rebels. those in one week in 2001 were way before president bush appointed john bolton to be our ambassador to the united

nations. john bolton better known as john bolton! who said this about the united nations to which he was to be our diplomatic ambassador. >> there is no united nations. the building in new york is ten stories p if you lost one story it wouldn't make a bit of difference. >> that guy they called a diplomat. they broke international treaties under the assumption enemies would break them anyway, so what's the use? this is one of the most fundamental differences between this administration and the last one. this is a big deal. this is one of the biggest fundamental differences between modern conservatives who think that international institutions and agreements are for suckers and modern liberals who think those institutions and agreements sometimes work. that old mutual pursuit of the mutual interests of sov erin nations thing. you know. president obama campaigned on

change. as it turned out, change did not mean everybody suddenly had a job or that the banking crisis was suddenly fixed or our wars magically ended. but change in part has meant a return to diplomacy which means not just coalitions for the willing, but also coalitions of countries of the more or less equally motivated to take on enormous global problems. and in that way, change, big world changing change, is in fact what we got. the amount of technology in today's cars is like something out of a spaceship. which is why, mechanics nowadays are more like rocket scientists. they have to be. the technicians at ford and lincoln mercury dealerships are highly trained. they really do know their stuff. and, they have all the parts to make sure the job gets done right. get the works - an oil change, tire rotation and more just $29.95 or less after $10 mail-in rebate. does this thing do email? you betcha. see, smart and friendly.

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the governor did not even mention slavery in this proclamation. was that a mistake? >> well, i don't think so. i don't know what you would say about slavery, but anybody thinks you have to explain to people that slavery's a bad thing, i think goes without saying. to me it's the sort of feeling that it's a nit. it is not significant, that it's not a -- it's trying to make a big deal out of something that doesn't amount to diddley. >> mississippi governor exlobbyist and presumed 2012 presidential contender haley barbour this weekend one-upping for virginia bob mcdonnell's whole slavery's no big deal thing. he issued a proclamation that did not mention slavery. he discovered quickly this was an oops if he wanted a career this politics. he amended an apology.

a claim haley barbour could have done without. governor barbour explaining he liked the slavery-free confederate history proclamation just the way it was, thank you very much. in case you're wondering whether governor bob mcdonnell is happy that halle barbour is taking the spotlight off virginia, think about. following up on rescinding gay rights protections for workers and following the confederacy se celebration, the next -- it is long those that are convicted a felony lose their right to vote. only the governor can restore that right. bob mcdonnell is adding something. in the next few weeks, governor mcdonnell will, quote, require the offenders to submit an essay outlying their contributions to society, since their release.

turning ab automatic process into a subjective one that some say will prevent poor or less educated residents from being allowed to vote. so if you are one of those virginians that have lost the right to vote, you now have to write an essay to show this man you get the right to vote back. you have to demonstrate your literacy, in other words, as a sort of test for voting. why does that sound familiar? governor bob mcdonnell's right handyman, emphasis, right, is doing his part for the state's image. encouraging people to bring their weaponry to the state house. he also addressed two tea party rallies over the weekend at which he called vehemently for the repeal of obama care. all of which is just a prelude to thursday's big event on the

virginia attorney general's cal letter. as virginia's top lawyer, he will be head lining something called the awakening and revival's history conference. awakening conference at jerry falwell's liberty university. also slated to appear, our old pal lou engel. remember lou engel? led republicans in their prayer cast where they prayed against health care reform and prayed for god to overcome the government. >> we pray you rule in the senate debates even as we pray, so now we stand before you and worship you, the god who answers prayer, arise, o, god, show mercy and turn this nation to you, we pray. break in. break in at this moment as we lift our voices all over america. come, lord, hear from heavy and not intervene in jesus name, we

pray. >> senator demint and senator brownback there, the two guys you saw seated next to each other. also slated to appear at this thursday's event immediately before the virginia attorney general's going to give his speech is a woman named cindy jacobs. cindy jacobs claims to be a prophet. >> if you need any kind of miracle at all, or you just get up and start to move towards the front. a cloud of glory is going to come. backs are being healed. feet are being healed. migraines are being healed. somebody needs a healing of hepatitis c. you are being healed right now. you have aids. you are being healed right now. right at this moment. oh, glauk coma is being healed. hallelujah. hallelujah, the cancer-free zone. the anointed of god. hallelujah. just when i count to three, i want to you do something you

could not do. you wait until i count to three, and we're going to believe god is going to begin to move for you. are you ready? are you ready? come on, god, create. be the creator. be the creator. be the creator. are you ready? when i count to three, if you couldn't bend over, bend over. if you couldn't move your arm, move your arm. if you had a tumor, see if it's gone. whatever it is. are you ready? here we go. one, two, three. move. move. move. move. move. do it now. do it now. more. put your hands up. bend over. touch the floor. come on. do it. move. move. move. move. >> i feel like i have to break in here for a second. there's a little bit more. but i just want to tell you, we didn't add the creepy music to the clip. the music is actually live. there are musicians playing the music along with her. i think it's supposed to help with the healing. >> i pray every word spoken

against you, by doctors, every medical chart that says you are not healed, that you will not walk in wholeness. i break every spirit in death. you spirit in death, go in jesus name. be healed. now move. now move. come on. pray more. be healed. be healed. be healed. >> it's getting better. >> be healed. move it some more. yeah. hallelujah. hallelujah. >> so i don't know if the band is going to be there. but the attorney general of the state of virginia is going to be appearing with her. on thursday. a lot of conservative politicians admit they want to repeal health reform. but it takes a brave new virginia style conservative politician to say they want to repeal health reform while appearing at an event with a faith healer. joining us now, donald

mckeechan. thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you for having me, rachel. >> your attorney general is taking an increasingly high-profile national role. i know that and you some others in the state legislator and the state senate oppose his effort to sue the government over health care. why do you oppose him, and what are you doing to fight him? >> we know of no reputable legal scloler that believes that lawsuit can succeed. he's wasting taxpayer time and he's wasting taxpayer money. he ought to be changing internet predators, looking into mine safety, things of that sort. >> i know you represent richmond in the state senate. the attorney general in addition to this lawsuit that he's speaking at all these events, he also attended a gun right rally in richmond today, reportedly 100 people there, many of them wearing visible weapons. how do you feel about the state's top lawyer addressing --

addressing that group? how do you think it fits into overall how he's performing as attorney general? >> i think he's not performing as attorney general, at least as he should. it seems he's already on the campaign trail. tomorrow will mark the 90th day of this administration. campaign is over, and what he ought to be doing is helping to solve the problems that everyday, ordinary virginians are facing and not be campaigning. >> do you get the sense that the new governor and new attorney general are more focused on building a national profile than they are the local problems facing virginians? >> i think that's absolutely the case. they are clearly playing to their base. but what they really need to remember is the election is over and they're the governor of all virginians and attorney general of all virginians and i wish they would act in that fashion. >> in terms of the way virginia is being viewed by the rest of the country right now, when the

confederacy proclamation was signed he said he hope it'd would help tourism, then he apologized for not having included slavery in the original proclamation. what's your assessment of the validity of that apology? how do you feel about that overall incident? >> the governor's apologized, it's true. but you've got to kind of wonder, how do you get to that point? how do you write a statement about that period of time and not include slavery? who were the people around the table who came up with that ingenious idea? and as far as tourism is concerned, you put it on your website with no fan fare and you think it's going to attract tourism? he decided to play to part of his base. >> is there a far right base in virginia politics that is the beneficiary of all of these action that's have been taken by these two conservative politicians? is this really all about keeping that sort of very far right side of the electorate happy, and how

much more needs to be done to keep them continually happy? >> well, i don't know how much more needs to be done, but i certainly think they have done enough. virginians face problems in edge case, we face problems in transportation, we face problems in job creation. the governor said he was going to go for jobs and none of that has taken place yet. >> senator, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. thank you for giving us your time this evening. >> hey, and thank you. >> thank you. so new details about what federal authorities found when they raided the hutaree militia in michigan two weeks ago, including dvds marked "waco." we are about to hear the voice of timothy mcveicveigh, the okla citicy bomber. >> you feel a bond to this community. the bond is that they are fellow gun owners and freedom lovers.

when do you draw the line and say enough is enough? somebody has to send a message to say, you can't go any further. >> later we'll have more on the news about the hutaree militia and we will have more of a preview of the jailhouse taped confession of timothy mcveigh which has never before been aired. great. come on in. would you like to see our new police department? yeah, all right. this way. and here it is. completely networked. so, anything happening, suz? she's all good. oh, my gosh. is that my car? [ whirring ] [ female announcer ] the new community. see it. live it. share it. on the human network. cisco.

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it was pulitzer prize day today, a huge day for journalists and writers. the pulitzer for investigative reporting was awarded to the "new york times." which frankly is not that weird or different or unique to this year. what is all of those things, though, is that "the new york times" magazine won it this year in collaboration with propublica, it's founded and funded by philanthropists to publish journalism in the public interest. it examined controversial choices made by doctors at a new orleans medical center in the immediate aftermath of hurricane katrina. buried in the positive news of this well deserved win is the very sobering reality there is a need for propublica to exist at

all. before it got to be too expensive. before we let the subject of the pulitzer prizes go, here's one for which there is no caveat, hank williams got one today. country music pioneer got a special citation for, quote, writing and singing songs that reflected the hopes and struggles of everyday americans. his compositional skills and fusion of genres became the measure by which country music is judged. as someone who has made the pilgrimage to his grave to share a beer with hank, let's let the man's music speak for itself, shall we? ♪ hey, good lookin', what you got cookin', how about cooking something up with me ♪ >> we'll be right back. and the startup-capital- for-barbers business.

and the this-won't- hurt-a-bit business. because we don't just work here. we live here. these are our families. and our neighbors. and by changing lives we're in more than the energy business we're in the human energy business. chevron. oh! just come snuggle with mama. [ male announcer ] missing something? like 2 pairs of bifocals for $149.99 at sears optical, with progressive lenses for just $25 more per pair. hurry in to sears optical today and don't miss a thing.

so, at national, i go right past the counter... and you get to choose any car in the aisle. choose any car? you cannot be serious! okay. seriously, you choose. go national. go like a pro. timothy mcveigh in his own

words. more of that exclusively here, so stay tuned.

anarbor.com released things found at the hutaree, among guns, guns and more guns, liquid tear gas, bomb manuals, a book of adolf hitly speeches, grenade holders and thousands and

thousands and thousands of rounds of ammunition, a couple of items stand out. the search of hutaree leader david brian stone's home turned up three dvds listed waco. the search of thomas piatek's home turned up audiotapes of the turner diaries. it is a white sprem cyst wait war fantasy. the destruction of the branch davidian compound at waco is what he says drove him to plan and commitment the oklahoma city bombing. under the first amendment right we have the right to even disgusting speech. it's not illegal to read neonazi books, it is certainly not illegal to own dvds about the siege at waco. but the constitution's protection of the right to read and espouse all sorts of things does not require we ignore

threats and parallels seemingly reading from the script of past american extremists who committed horrific acts of domestic terrorism. they are accused of plotting and training for the mass murder of u.s. law enforcement officers and waging war against the u.s. government. a week from today, april 19th, is the 15th anniversary of the turner diaries and waco-inspired bombing of the alfred p. murrah building which killed 168 americans. during this hour on msnbc on april 19th, we will be airing a documentary, based on never-before-heard tapes of timothy mcveigh, including his account of what motivated him and what exactly happened on the day of the bombing in 1995. here is a preview of "the mcveigh tapes." in january 1993, timothy mcveigh is frustrated by the dead end existence he's endured since leaving the army and he is

still shaken by his experiences in the gulf war. eager to figure out his mission in life, mcveigh packs up his car and says good-bye to his quiet hometown of pendleton, new york. >> i lasted at home for one year and one month. i said [ bleep ] this whole neighborhood. this ain't for me. i don't have a place here. i haven't found a love. and then i hit the road. >> the odyssey that he was living in the early '90s was really bizarre. he thought nothing of getting in his car and driving hundreds or even thousands of miles. and he was searching for something. >> as a guy, who i think had a lot of trouble relating to other people, that was a world that was very kind of amenable to him. >> he was gathering inspiration and information for what he thought was his mission in life. he wasn't going to be the super soldier, so who aways going to be now? >> mcveigh's mission is still

unclear but he's beginning to hone in on his main focus of fury, the u.s. government. he finds like-minded thinkers on the gun show circuit. during the early 1990s, these expos become gathering places for the fast-growing militia and patriot movements. it is in this sub culture that mcveigh finally finds an outlet for his growing rage. >> i mean, you could find an amazing amount of literature on insurgency, on forming militias, on building weapons. they're amazingly anti-government. >> one of my favorite bumper stickers, you've heard the one that says, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns? well, there's a new one that was my favorite, it says, when guns are outlawed, i will become an outlaw. and it was at that point when i was fully intent in my life that i was going to live outside the law. >> he started to believe that

our government to believe our government was going to come into people's homes and take their guns away. this scared the hell out of the tim mcvay. >> that same mentality is what you see from gun show to gun show to gun show. get your weapons now, stockpile them now. for tim mcvay, this must seem like the next war that's about to be waged. >> tonight at least four federal agents, one cult member are dead. >> on february 28th, 1993, outside the central texas town of waco, many in the patriot movement believe the spark to that next war is ignited. >> you can't point guns in the direction of my wives and my kids. damn it, i'll meet you at the door anytime. >> in an attempt to bring david koresh into custody, federal agents raid his compound and a massive fire fight breaks out. >> six davidians and four atf

agents wii killed. that started the standoff. >> it was a clash between federal law enforcement might and withdrawn people who were fiercely protective of their community. >> the bond is they're fellow gun owners, and fellow survivalists, and freedom lovers. when do you draw the line and say enough is enough? somebody has to send a message to say you can't go any further. >> and mcvay got in his little junk car and drove to waco, texas, to find out what was going on. >> michelle roush, a college newspaper reporter at the time, was at the branch davidian compound outside waco to investigate the story. it wasn't until one year after the oklahoma city bombing that

she realized the man she interviewed on the hood of his car was none other than timothy mcveigh. >> he was very unassuming, very casual, sitting on the hood of his car, very articulate. tim said, people need to watch what's happening and heed any warning signs. at the time, i thought, well, what does that mean? well, when i went back and read that in my article, it gave my chills, because i thought, did that mean oklahoma city? was he foreshadowing? >> after camping in his car outside the compound for a few days, mcvay drives to terry nichols car in morn michigan. >> in less than an hour, the compound was destroyed in a raging inferno. >> on april 19th, 1993, mcvay and nichols watched the violent end of the waco siege on

television. >> watching flames lick out windows, and watching tanks ram walls. my eyes just welled up in tears and tears started coming down my cheeks. just stood there in stunned silence. what is this? what has america become? i remember that scene. it burned into my memory. i'm emotional right now as i talk about it. i felt absolute rage. >> tim saw this as an act of war against the people. >> it was the bully again. this time the horns were on the head of the federal government. >> the rules of engagement, if not written down, are defined by the accesses of an aggressor. okay? now, what rules of engagement would you interpret in examining waco? kids are fair game? women are fair game? >> i think that that was the final moment for mcveigh, and he

says so himself, right? after waco, now is the time for action, right? now we're going operational. >> with oklahoma city being a counterattack, i was only fighting by the rules of engagement introduced by the aggressor. waco start this had war. hopefully oklahoma would end it. you can watch our two-hour documentary next monday, april 19th, 9:00 p.m. eastern. we'll be right back. at remax.com, you can find the experts you need, whether you're trying to sell of hoping to buy. nobody sells more real estate than re/max. visit remax.com today.

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