billion fund, little fraternity for the boys, here's some ways to actually do what the treasury secretary claims to want to do. do not let the banks get too big in the first place. do not let the banks get too big in the first place. sound difficult? and then break up the current megabanks that are still holding the threat of economic collapse over our heads as leverage to take whatever they want from us. if wall street's real mission is to do what it was intended to do, only two things -- lend money to businesses or people or invest money in businesses or people. if that's all they're here to do, then why do they need any more than say, $100 billion, or $500 billion in assets to lend or invest with people. the answer is, they don't.

so why haven't we seen the big banks broken up? well while too big to fail is horrendous for america every day as retirees, students and middle-class-teams suffer, it is unbelievably good for bank profits. you have a rigged game in which all the money comes to you. of course, a portion of those ill-gotten profits do have to go to politicians and lobbyists. so that they can keep this legal. and that is the most formidable foe we face, america. 1500 wall street lobbyists as we speak, descending on washington to fight senator blanche lincoln's derivatives reform, simply because it calls for everything to be done in public. a transparent exchange, kind of like the stock market, it's crazy. fixing our financial system requires two things -- an actual plan to insure banks don't get too big to fail. and the courage to actually do it.

join joining us now, republican senator, bob corker of tennessee, a member of the banking committee. senator corker, how do we end too big to fail, in your opinion? >> well, you've raised a lot of issues here, dylan, it's good to see you here on the camera. look, at the end of the day, one of the things i think you do have to have in place, is a way to liquidate these companies when they fail. and i do think there are portions of legislation that we've agreed to, that would do that. on the other hand, there's no question that when institutions are as large as many of ours are, it still puts our system under stress when they fail. so you know, one of the things that hasn't even been mentioned here, we talked about a number of problems. but there's nothing in this bill to deal with underwriting standards. i mean, why are we making the types of loans that end up being utilized by these overleveraged companies. and then spread across the

world, $600 trillion worth of notional value. so there are a number of core issues, dylan. >> who needs underwriting standards when you're too big to fail? you just got to take the money, baby, that's the whole point. >> well i will say that there are portions of the dodd bill that, that do work, as it relates to winding down and making sure that a company fails. so i think there are some attempts. i understand what you're getting at, is the size of these firms. and i realize that there's nothing that's been discussed yet that really focuses on the size of these institutions. but at the end of the day, again what has created these failures has been the fact that a bunch of mortgages were written to people around this country, that could not pay them back. and then basically spread around the world. i agree with you, by the way, in your opening comments regarding derivatives. i think the biggest step we're going to take, potentially in this bill, will be to make sure that as many trades as possible

end up being done on a clearing house, where on a daily basis, people have to true up. if we had that happeni ining du this last episode, what happened with aig could have never occurred so there are some steps that are being taken. and by the way, i want to speak to the wall street lobbyists. this bill is not tough on wall street. and those are not the folks that most of us here in washington are even listening to. i mean, this is sort of reg-lite on wall street in many ways. who we're listening to are community bankers, people who make products around this country. manufacturers who are concerned about the derivatives they use to actually hedge for their own businesses. so those are the things that we're looking at. i think this whole wall street lobbying thing, in my opinion, is blown out of proportion. and that really, this bill doesn't do much to them. it does in fact address this, i think, this resolution issue.

but none of these guys are thinking about failing. i think, dylan, we've got to figure out a way to figure, to deal with the incentives, the money and get these things -- i don't know how to deal with it, exactly. but if you make -- >> here's the thing. too big to fail creates the incentive to take a ton of risk thaw can't afford to take and take the money. i understand that the folks in washington feel like you've created a potential way to resolve this, without coming to the taxpayer. but much like iran and a nuclear weapon, if you don't have a plan to detect this going to your underwriting issues and to deter this, the resolution authority is phase three. this is like saying, we're not going to try to detect whether iran has nuclear weapons. we're not going to try to deter iran from having nuclear weapons. we're simply going to resolve it after they have a nuclear weapon. and the current plan out of the both the democrats and the republicans, and i'm sorry to get heated, senator, but as you know, i've got a tremendous

amount of passion for this issueth and i believe that the perpetuation of too big to fail is a massive liability to the future of our country. because it serves as a magnet that attracts all of the investment capital and deprives our businesses as you know of the basic investment and lending they would get if there weren't two classes of bank. and it's one thing to have a resolution authority. and it's another thing to deter and detect the sort of fraudulent and excessive and privileged behavior that only a too big it fail bank can exhibit. i recognize it's a hard problem. but can you sympathize with my frustration with both political parties in their failure to deal with the actual issue of too big to fail? >> well let me say this. first of all, we haven't finished. and i do think that that we are dealing with how to, to put a failed institution out of business. so we never have this kind of situation again. >> that's not true. >> no, no, i'm saying that by

the time it's all said and done, i think we will have dealt with that. but i understand your frustration. i also do not believe we've done enough to prevent these problems from occurring. i could not agree more. and you get to the base underwriting issue there. that's an issue that still has to be dealt with. the answer, the question i don't have the answer to, is, we do have some megainstitutions in this country, with over $2 trillion in assets. and yet, we're in a global society where firms of this size are useful. as it relates to globalization. and so, so on the one hand, i understand the problem. you're talking about, i sympathize with that. but on the other hand, if you basically say that they cannot exist, what it does is take our country out of the business of being involved in a global en r enterpri enterprise. >> you and i will go all afternoon, as you and i both

know. i appreciate the fact that you gave me some time today. it is a frustrating situation. >>s did. >> and both of us know there are more improved solutions to come, we hope from both republicans and democrats. thank you, senator corker. joining us now, gretchen morganson, assistant business and financial editor and columnist of course for "the new york times." gretchen, along with louise story, the first-to-break news of the s.e.c. fraud accusations against goldman sachs. it's a pleasure to be seeing you. >> i'm so leap to be here, dylan. >> here's my question for you -- do you believe that the goldman sachs fraud case, forget whether it has merit or not or what its outcome is. is indicative of the type of business practices that were common at merrill lynch? deutsche bank, ubs, lehman brothers, and the rest of goldman sachs, who were the firms that were the most aggressive with this type of trading and security in general? do you believe that there is, if we once we start pulling, we're going to see a lot more of this?

>> this is certainly not an isolated example, dylan. i mean i think that some of these securities that were underwritten by all the firms that you mentioned, might be different in little nuanced ways. but what we're talking about is, yes, a really overarching effort to figure out a way to short the mortgage market. to bet against the mortgage market. not only for their customers in some cases, like mr. paulson, who was the hedge fund manager, cited but not named in the s.e.c.'s case. but for the banks themselves, to take on big negative bets. this was how they did it. this type of security. >> were they invent the security, they find a sucker, which is usually a pension manager or somebody who represents a large pool of assets. dumb money, you look for the marks, whether it's a municipality, somebody who manages teachers' money and you try to jam something down their throat, and you buy yourself a steak, high five. how do you deal with two big to

fail? >> too big to fail is you're dead right, the crucial part of what we need to do that's not addressed in this bill. and it is so frustrating to me to hear arguments like -- we won't be competitive internationally if we don't have large, these large megainstitutions. i think that is so wrong. how many times have you heard the argument about how we'll lose competition, we'll lose the competition overseas if we don't, if we regulate too strongly or if we don't allow banks to become you know, the behemoths that they are. it is just not true. banks will lend to people who have good products, who are entrepreneurial. it is not about the competition. it is about these are too big to fail. they are too big to manage. they're too big to succeed. they're too big to regulate. and we must chop them down to size as you said earlier. not just wait until they implode and hurt everyone. >> have you planned -- this is like saying we know iran's going to make a nuclear bomb, but we

have a plan for when they do. >> exactly. why would you not try to make sure you detonate -- you take it apart. but no, we have to wait until there is another incident and then the regulators will tool in there to fix it. no, you need to make sure these banks have either not enough, not as much leverage as they were allowed to have. i.e., have higher capital ratios, whatever the methodology is. you must cut them down to size. they cannot be allowed to get this big. and the ones that are this big? have to be reduced. >> all right. listen, a pleasure, i enjoy your reporting and your writing every time i get the chance to read it, so thank you so much. and if you're not following reading what gretchen is writing, i believe you should be. louise story has also been doing a great job at "the new york times," in covering this. we'll take a break, coming up, on the "dylan ratigan show," the canary on the coal mine, what the success or failure of the case against goldman sachs will mean for the casino mentality.

and just a little extra misrepresentation to get that big steak dinner and jam that turkey down the throat of that stupid teachers' pension manager from california. they're so stupid. plus, the politics, played the chicago way. rahm emanual's ambitions for life after the white house. and how europe may soon subsidize for vacations for the poor while we subsidize gambling for the rich. they're calling tourism in europe a human right. you're the colon lady! diarrhea, constipation, gas, bloating. that's me! can i tell you what a difference phillips' colon health has made? it's the probiotics. the good bacteria. that gets your colon back in balance. i'm good to go! phillips' colon health.

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the day's other headlines, rahm's political ambitions and vacations as a human right. what would you rather pay for your tax dollars, bank gambling or poor people's vacations? probably neither. first, will rahm emanual's next job be mayor of chicago? in a pbs interview, the white house chief of staff confirming longstanding rumors about his political ambitions in the windy city. but he stressed he would not run against the man he once worked for. current chicago mayor, richard daley. >> i hope mayor daley seeks re-election. i will work and support him if he seeks re-election. but if mayor daley doesn't, one day i would like to run for mayor of the city of chicago. >> here to mix it up is our panel, jam hamshire and

j.p.frehr. jp, a man can dream, can't he? >> a man can dream, but he's kissing the feet of mayor daley there. i've never heard ever an announcement to run for office that was conditional, you know. >> but that's allowed. listen, he worked for the guy, maybe he does worship mayor daley's feet. >> absolutely. everyone who worked with daley does that, because that's the chicago machine. it shows the kind of power that mayor daley had and that well, frankly, president obama never really fought as senator or as a member of the chicago political establishment. >> you're making a couple of leaps there. >> it's all part of the history. >> understood. jane, your thoughts on rahm and his political ambitions in and outside of the white house? >> i think that he at one point wanted to run for speaker of the house, that was his big ambition. so this is a bit of an adjusted political calculation, i think. he has got a lot of goldman sachs and banking baggage in his

background. magster, capital, the ones that gave him all the money. >> magnatar. >> yes. and he's probably looking at chicago and thinking this is a place that might not hold that against him as much as a run for speaker might. >> yeah, all right. the european union as you may or play not have heard, has declared vacationing a human right. and it is hatching plan to get taxpayers in europe to foot the bill for people too poor to pay for their own vacation. under the plan, the eu would cover 30% of the cost of trips for eligible seniors, the disabled and the young. the plan could cost european taxpayers hundreds of millions of euros per year. jane, would you rather pay taxes for vacations or too big to fail bank gambling? >> well we just forced people to buy insurance policies from insurance companies that they hate. these people like vacations.

>> that's true. she's got a good point, jp. being forced to buy health insurance or being forced to pay for a vacation, which would you rather have your government force you to do? >> i would rather have my government force me to have a job to pay for things that i like. >> that wasn't on the list. you have to pay for bank gambling and fraud, and buy health insurance without reform to the health insurance industry. or you got it pay for somebody else's vacations. what you doing? >> president obama said we don't have do deal with these false choices. i would probably go with, go with the vacation, sure. here's the thing, one of the things that they said is this is an indicator vacation time. is an indicator of how well our economy is doing. how about growth? let's look at the growth rate for europe, it's been terrible. the things that are necessary for an economy to survive, are to have a robust business kbhe. and they were just dealing with the problem of greece. greece is insolvent and they were freaking out about this. now they're talking about giving everyone a vacation? this is nuts. >> all right.

the issue, i can't get it out of my head. you talk with the development of our businesses, jp. i got to tell you, as long as our politicians have banks that are vampires as opposed to lending and investing, it's going to be hard to develop a business in this town. nice shot on the health care, jane, i wouldn't have thought of that one, but i like it. jp, it's always a pleasure. still ahead, chopping up a hummer to make a point about consumption and our own nation's economic future. casino consumer culture pushed by bob reuben and larry summers on this country in '99. may end a little bit like this. it's in our town square. but first, 4:20 and the most stoned cities in america. where in america do the weed-smokers like to call their urban homes? well, we'll tell you right after this, it's in the "by the numbers." to stay on top of my game after 50,

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in today's by the numbers, it is april 20th, otherwise known as 4-20, the day thousands of people across the country stage smoke-ins, seeking to celebrate marijuana. to mark the day, the daily booest has compiled a list of america's most-stoned cities. leading the pack, eureka, california. tallahassee, florida, coming in as the second most stoned city in america. maybe this will say something about the bankers. coming in third, as the third most stoned city in america -- is the borough of manhattan. specifically manhattan. so you brooklynites don't feel like you've been offended in some way or complimented, however you look at this only

manhattan. lots of pot smokers in manhattan. boston comes in number four. and then not to be left out, as the home of the marijuana dispensary, san francisco at number five. they should probably be embarrassed for not being higher on that list. how did april 20th become the day to celebrate pot? the "huffington post" said it started with a group of california high school students in the early 1970s who used to smoke a little weed every day at 4:20 p.m. since then it's crept into popular culture. all the clocks in the movie "pulp fiction" are set to 4:20. and a proposition to legalize marijuana in california was named prop 420. the latest app/cnbc poll shows 55% of those polled oppose the legalization of marijuana. up next here on the dr show, we're breaking down what the fraud case against goldman sachs

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what's up? in the next 100 days, i will learn to go off the prompter and joe bider will learn to stay on the prompter. welcome back, all the big banks under the microscope as more people start too ask the question -- does the fraud spread beyond just this little accusation at goldman sachs. the firm hired former white house counsel greg craig, hoping his role will come in handy as wall street's biggest bank takes

on the big, bad federal government and the revolving door between the federal government and wall street turns again. meanwhile, across the pond, british regulators launching a formal investigation into goldman, they say a direct effect of the s.e.c. lawsuit. and back here at home, democrats saying the s.e.c. hasn't gone far enough. congressman peter defazio and elijah cummings analyzing a criminal investigation of goldman and there are indications that this could happen as early as this week. all of the news breaking on the same day that goldman reported record first quarter earnings, $3.46 billion. led by a huge spike in you guessed it, the trading division, largely driven by fixed income and of course, instruments like these -- well, cdos. today's earnings news, not surprising, when you've been given a $ 23.7 trillion windfall state support and been the chosen one by the government to be at the he had of the chain le goldman sachs was for jp morgan.

today, evidence that the fraud may stretch well beyond goldman sachs. dick foelt defending his use of the repo 105's, an accounting technique that goldman used to make it appear they had much more money they actually did, in order to cheat and steel more. fold says we've got it all wrong. >> lehman and his people have been unfairly vilified. there's been a lot of misinformation about repo 105. among the worst were the erroneous are reports on the front pages of newspapers claiming that lehman used 105 to remove toxic assets from its balance sheet. that simply was not true. >> no they were just using it to hide the fact that they were insolvent so they could continue gambling with those toxic securities. back with us, gretchen morganson who broke the story with for "the new york times." and "huffington post" business

editor and author of "13 bankers." simon. gretchen, where else should we be demanding investigations from our legislators on wall street. >> i think you have to start examining these cdos that were made up of credit default swaps. which are at the center of the whole derivatives argument, right, why we need to have more regulation, more transparency in this. they're central to these toxic securities. that metastasized the subprime cancer that we're all just still reeling from. so any bank that had a big fixed income, mortgage presence that was putting together these same kinds of pools and betting against them. >> simon, i've got a list of the banks that were the biggest and best at creating these types of instruments. merrill lynch stands at the top of the list no one put out more crap like like this than they did ubs right behind them. goldman sachs pretty far down the list at number nine. should we be investigating those

firms? >> of course we should be. gretchen is absolutely right. but of course one of the push-backs that we're hearing, a little bit behind the scenes, is if you mess with the banks, this is actually jamie diamond's line in public, if you mess with the banks, if you demonize us, this will disrupt credit and you won't get your economic recovery and you won't get your jobs back. the size of the banks gives them an unbelievable hold over all dimensions of public policy. it's kind of scary. >> how do you address too big to fail? >> you have to break up the big banks. there's no other way around it. think this was an amendment. i'm speaking to you from the senate russell office building, i think there's going to be amgdments pushing for a hard and realistic sellsible size cap on the when the dodd bill comes to the floor. but i don't know that. it could be that those sensible members will get shunted aside. because there's so much money in terms of campaign contributions at stake here. >> you if you were to look at the need for investigations and the actual possible fraud that

was used in the building of the bubble and paid out by our taxpayers and still supports a system that would hide that fraud while depriving our students, our middle class and our retirees of lending, investment or pension income, how do we get more pressure on our government to reveal more documents to reporters like you, me, or anybody else? >> i think that you have a very -- in this s.e.c. case against goldman, it was so explosive. and it really helped people to understand what wall street was doing. it really is something people can understand. and so, i think that we are, really doing, they're doing a great job educating. so i think the floodgates will now open up, dylan. i think that this might be kind of breaking the logjam that we've been looking for. because the response was so enormous. and people get it. it's not that complicated. the securities were complicated. but the whole game isn't that complicated. >> if you were to look at the intention, the reason any kind, whether it's america or anywhere else, simon, has a wall street.

has a financial market, as a place where either there is lending originated or investment originated in either people or businesses, how is it the type of gambling that gretchen and yourself and others have been reporting on, go to help with lending or investment? >> of course it doesn't, dylan. you know that. i mean it's fine to have gambling in society, that's why we have las vegas, you can go and gamble and lose your money, for all we care. but gambling with these large amounts of money, gambling in way that when certain bets are paid off, threatens to bring down the financial system, this is not acceptable. i emphasize the european piece, dylan. the europeans are finally beginning to get this. one of the pieces we're going to see is investigations of goldman and other firms in europe. both for what they did to european banks and we're going to be looking at some of those european banks like ubs. >> what about some of the concerns of somebody like senator corker, who we were talking with earlier who will immediately acknowledge the unfairness of two classes of

banks. the unfairness of creating a special fraternity. he gets it, but at the same time he hearse from jamie diamond and other who is says, listen, we have to maintain this size to be globally competitive. how do you reconcile those two irreconcilable desires? >> well jamie diamond is completely making that up. there's no evidence whatsoever of social benefits from banking in asegts of over $100 billion. we would have a pretty dynamic, fast-moving financial system, and hopefully we would cap the gambling, too, by the way. the european banks are in big trouble and the european governments are in a huge problem because they didn't prevent the growth of those banks. that's a future we must avoitd. jamie diamond says if i want to get bigger, you should let me get bigger, that's a market process. it's not a market process. that's an unfair, very dangerous form of government subsidy. and it should stop. >> go ahead, gretchen. >> simon could not be more correct. i mean these are again, the arguments, the tired arguments we've heard for so many years,

dylan. i know you've heard them, too. if we rein in our institutions, we won't be competitive overseas. it's just baloney. i mean how can you make that argument after what we've just been through? these banks are too big to manage, they're too big to succeed, cut them down to size. let the smaller banks have more market share. that means more main street -- >> more competition, more choices, more money for more people? >> an main street will get more loans. they're now absolutely strangled. they're not making loans to people. they're not making loans to small businesses. so i don't know how they can argue that if you rein them in, that's going to be bad for main street. it's going to be good for main street. >> you were talking about too big to fail with senator corker, talking about the context of iran and a nuclear weapon, as if too big to fail in that metaphor was the nuke. and while the democrats' plan addresses it as once they have a nuke, once they are too big to fail we resolve them. it does nothing to detect or

deter them as we would want to do with a hostile foreign power seeking to enrich uranium, or a hostile domestic bank seeking to become too big to fail so it can exploit the government benefits at the expense of the rest of us. why do you think even at the white house, the treasury, at the level of the leadership of the senate finance committee among the democratic party, they still refuse to recognize the obvious, that both you, gretchen and even senator corker and in our conversation a half-hour ago, could easily recognize. which is that too big to fail is a rigged game against the american people in favor of those who are in that special class of bank? >> and it's against the rest of the american business sector, dylan. we have a lot of support in our book and around our book, from the nonfinancial sector, from other people in the financial sector. i think the problem for the democratic leadership is there's so much damn money in politics. they're afraid. if they turn against the big banks and i'm sure you saw today that the big banks have launched a massive campaign against harry reid in nevada managing to mix up the messages. of course that's what they want

to do. saying that he's somehow supporting stoo big to fail. it's the too big to fail guys that are going after him. it's crazy, but that's how politics works. you jam the signals, you confuse the heck out of people and you're offering them money on the other hand. so when they think, well we want to win in november, if we turn too much against the banks, thee going to hammer us, they're going to give all the money to our opponents, how much risk do we want to take? that's unfortunately the political reality. we need leadership, we need the white house to cut through this. we need a strong speech from president obama on thursday. this is a huge opportunity for him, particularly in the case of the s.e.c. against goldman. if he blows it on thursday, i don't know where we're going to go. >> simon, i'm going to leave it right there. i appreciate your analysis as always. 13 bankers, the book. gretchen morganson of the "new york times." if you're not following her reporting on this issue, i highly recommend it along with her colleague, louise story. thank you, gretchen. today i want to add a few more names in fact to our financial reform honor roll list, people

that i believe you should be listening to when it comes to trying to understand this very complex and centrally-important issue to the future of our country for our children, for our students, for our middle class and for our retirees, we must get this right. let's add gretchen to that list. whose journalism most recently on goldman sachs, along with louise story, has exposed what is hopefully the opening act as gretchen just pointed out in the massive investigation of fraud on wall street. that is something we all need to be pushing right now to get, bear in mind the treasury department through its five trustees has the capacity to unleash a raft of email out of aig and goldman sachs that would reveal god knows what. gretchen and louise join others like of course, the sheriff of wall street, eliot spitzer, lawmakers like ted kaufmann, congressman allen grayson. check out dylan.msnbc.com for a full list of those who not only get it, but are believers in

innovator, investor, a bank designed to lend and invest, not designed to extract and steal. these people are on that mission. and we're all, myself and others, tremendously grateful to them for their help. i want to turn to our dig list now. europe slowly getting airborne again after ash from the icelandic volcano grounded planes. planes have been taking off from paris, madrid and frankfurt. the ash cloud is shrinking. the volcano switching do lava production. i don't know. new details about a cyberattack that hit google last december. remember this whole china google routine. hackers targeted a password system that controls access by millions of users worldwide to almost all of the company's web services, including email and business applications. think about gmail. passwords weren't stolen but the hackers may have found weaknesses that google wasn't aware of. perhaps google should send them

a consulting fee. the apple ipad, talk of losing some things. i thought that was an iphone. the ipad apparently not welcome on college campuses because of the way it connects to wireless networks. for example, princeton university blocking 20% of campus ipads, because it causes interference with other devices trying to access the network. finally a study that warns tanning bed usage may be addictive. of the people that use the beds an average of 23 times in the last year, 70% showed signs of tanning addiction. i'm -- you can't see i'm smiling now, because i'm laughing at that statement. who knows? what do we know. the study says the users are more likely to suffer from anxiety, and other symptoms of substance abuse. i don't even know what that means. but apparently that's what the study says. up next, in "busted" the

tanning industry, for claim to create addicts. no, the treasury department in their lip service to transparency in the financial markets. but when it comes time to voting your shares of stock in companies like citigroup, it doesn't match reality. they actually vote against transparency as a shareholder, you won't believe it. then in the "town square" some hoover carts for a new, but still cash-strapped generation. would you chop the top off of your hummer and hitch a couple of horses to the front? one man did, we'll talk to him, coming up. ♪ breaking up is hard to do breaking up is hard to do. so allstate will do it for you. switch to allstate, and your new agent will... help tell your old insurance company goodbye. saving you that uncomfortable breakup moment. and serious cash. drivers who switched saved an average of $396 a year. $473 if they dumped geico. breaking up is easy to do. ♪ remember when that's allstate's stand. are you in good hands?

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we're back with "busted," up first, a same-sex couple that was granted marriage rights, would now like the same consideration extended to their divorce proceedings. but texas says no. the couple was married in massachusetts in 2004. shortly after that, the state became first in the nation to allow gay couples to get hitched, the two women were residents of austin, texas at the time of the union. fast-forward six years, the couple's relationship appears to have run its course, but the state of texas says they can't get divorced there, because gay marriage is now illegal. they got married in the state where gay marriage was legal. but now you get it, an austin judge granted them a divorce, but the texas attorney general filing an appeal, he says he's protecting the traditional definition of marriage by doing the same thing for divorce.

up next, a big slap in the face from the obama administration today. to anyone who actually wants wall street to be an open, transparent place to do business, where you can't secretly rig the game and steal other people's money. thanks to the bailout, the american taxpayer now owns a 27% stake in citigroup. which means that the u.s. treasury gets to vote as shareholder when there are issues at citigroup. today, was the first of four proxy votes on whether the open, whether to open the secret derivatives market to more transparency voluntarily at citigroup. guess who voted against the resolution calling for greater disclosure? at least in part -- yes, your government. the same one that last week claimed, we cannot afford to wait to fix our flawed, outdated regulatory system. to bring transparency and oversight to derivatives. a nice sentiment from the treasury.

but if it's really the case and the lobbyists aren't controlling what happens on behalf of the banks so they can continue to gamble on an infinite level in secret, then why did you miss today's opportunity to shed some light on the shadow banking that exists in the derivatives market? and finally the supreme court, even more out of touch than you might have thought, during arguments in a case about text messaging, chief justice john roberts asked what's the difference between email and a pager? and justice antonin scalia apparently didn't understand the concept of a cell phone provider and an email. asking -- you mean the text doesn't just go right to me? much more ahead on the "dr show." straight ahead, a hummer heads to the chop shop. this trip was all about going green. we'll explain in the town square. and then in "hardball," bank reform with andrew sorkin, the

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a new york artist has turned the well-known gas guzzler into a horse-drawn carriage. jeremy dean bought a used black hummer for a cool $15,000. then paid mechanics to strip out the engine and before long, his artwork was hoofing it through central park. jeremy joins us live today. jeremy, how did you come up with this?

>>well it's base off the hoover car in the great depression. so, what was happening in the 1920s is people were buying cars from gm at 30% interest. i don't know if you can imagine buying a car at 30% in the 1920s. in 1929, the stock market crashed and the result was, people couldn't afford gasoline or tires. so in the rural south, they started cutting them in half and attaching poles to front and hooking up horses and they called them hoover cars. so given our financial and political climate. it seemed to me that we kind of needed a reminder of this little bit of obscure americana and so i decided to bring back the hoover cart in sort of a big, over-the-top way. >> has it been popular? have you been taking people for rides in central park? >> well, we did the whole central park event, which was pretty awesome. and you know, we just sort of

did it. we didn't really have permits and all this stuff. they were cool and let us take the cart around for a little bit. but after a while, they gave us the boot. >> you did it without -- you should get into banking. >> yeah, right. i could be the next too big to fail. >> do you do custom projects? are you dealing with other vehicles that can you do this with? >> certainly. the next thing we want to do is a cadillac escalade, of course. the next big symbol of something that's sort of consumerism at its peak. i think the hummer really represents that and next on my list would be the cadillac escalade. >> we're looking at a picture of an actual hummer driving here. how much did did you have to do work on these cars, other than chopping actual top off. >> it took a lot of physical labor to get it done. but the design elements i had worked out in small models.

i absolutely knew it was all going to work it was just a matter of doing it. we did it actually in about four and a half weeks at a garage in palmetto, florida. so i had a couple of guys, we just tore into it and chopped it up and reconfigured the whole car and welded it back together into a half car, half horse cart. >> if you were to look at beyond the automobiles, if you were to look at art as a commentary on some of our absurd political and social client climate, some are fabulously wealthy because they earned it. others are fabulously wealthy because they control our government and can defraud pension fund managers and take money out of the system and the rest are fairly well left to our own devices, one out of five out of the age of 25 without a job. people stuck in their houses and also that washington can provide benefits to our bankers. do you think you could do something, for instance, for pensioners and retirees who have

been the sucker for all of these bank scams? >> yeah, definitely. i think that art is really valuable to society. i think when art is at its best, it both reflects and creates culture. think that's the job of an artist, is to make these kind of statements of that's the kind of art that i'm very much interested in making. art that asks contemporary questions and tries to figure out the world in which we live. so these, these issues that you're bringing up really interest me. and i think that it's true, i think thomas friedman would say that what's been going on lately, is that we have been, we've been undervaluing the risk. we've been privatizing the gains, we've been socializing the losses across the board. from the financial world to the environment. to the food industry. it's really true that we have sort of given everyone over to big special interests and sort of the average american is left with not very many choices. >> we've got our hands full. i think we can get this done. i appreciate your art.

i'm dylan ratigan. up next is "hardball" with chris matthews right now. senator gordon gecko, let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in new york. leading off tonight, the public interest versus a wall street mouthpiece, what are the republicans really saying about wall street reform? just as mitch mcconnell seemed to dial back the rhetoric that the democrat bill is nothing more than a recipe for end also bank bailouts, house minority leader, john boehner dialled it right back up. we'll try to get to the bottom of the debate with real english and what the bill actually does right at the top of the show. also, republican purge, arlen specter is out, john mccain, charlie crist and robert bennett is all being threatened on the

right. is this any way to run a party or run it into the ground. next, where's the credit. the top two leader of al qaeda were killed over the weekend. does president obama get enough credit for being tough on terrorism? that's my question for former counterterrorism adviser, richard clarke. plus wait until you see how president obama parried with a gay rights heckler. and let me finish with a tribute to a real american hero. let's start with the politics of financial rerm and the lingo. "time" magazine's mark halpern is author of the great book, "game change." and ross sorkin is the author of "too big to fail." two giants on the show tonight, gentlemen, thank you for joining us. it seems to me that the president has finally got the accent right. he calls it wall street. he doesn't say financial regulation or all of these boring terms. he says, we've got to clean up wall street. we've got to stop them from stealing our money. oempbd, the republicans, thanks