having this nascent bank. there's a report out by mr. holding from the bank of england where he pointed out we should go back to glass-stegall. that the economies of scale stop at $100 million. he pointed out that there's no reason to keep these banks the way they are and he pointed out these banks have an incredible competitive edge over the other banks. so the part of it is just i wish the folks on wall street and the bankers would come forward and say, look, we know what's going on here. this is what really should happen. but we'll see. i mean this is a very compelling argument, in my opinion, as you know i've been talking about this for a while. when i talk to my colleagues, i get a good response. but you never know around here until you actually count the votes. >> what do you think is the best thing you have going for you? >> i just think the strength of the idea. i think the fact that people know that we have to do something different. look, after 1929, after the crash, the congressman went out in 1933 passed the glass-stegall. passed the real laws. i don't think it appeals to people basically the fact that

we're going to turn it back over to the regulators. the idea we should be here legislating for the next 50 years, not for the next two years or 32 years. and i think that's really the most compelling thing. the glass-stegall worked for us for almost three generations we should go back to that. >> do you feel like a giant bank is to the benefit of anybody other than the giant bank? >> i don't even know if it's a benefit to the giant bank, dylan, to be honest to you. but you're absolutely right, it's a benefit to absolutely nobody other. i'm not even sure it's good for the big banks. one of the things reported in the bank of england, they all have the same kind of portfolios, that's very dangerous. thank you, senator ted kaufmann of delaware. senate majority leader harry reid, scheduling a vote. it would clear the way for a full debate of financial reform.

we'll have special coverage of that event. and next thursday, we're taking this show downtown, broadcasting live from the march on wall street at city hall. that next week. that will do it for today. "hardball" up right now. nasty business, let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, going negative. senator arlen specter has attacked democratic congressman joe sestic's military record. a new commercial opens by saying that he was relieved of duty by a 31-year naval career. with just four weeks to go before the primary, why is he doing this? it's our top story tonight. also, president obama takes on wall street, the president traveled just a few subway stops from wall street to urge the wall street's masters of the

universe, not to fight proposed new regulation. >> unless your business model depends on bilking people, there's little to fear from these new rules. >> well this looks like a win-win for mr. obama. either republicans fight him and take wall street's side in this fight. or they join him and he gets a bill. what's better? big question. plus, michelle bachman again attempts the obama administration as quote, gangster government. that's her phrase, we'll get the "hardball" strategists to debate it. and the man beloved by the country's libertarians, ron paul joins me on the set to talk about the tea parties and their future. what a get he is tonight. i'll finish with a thought on how negative political advertising, attack ads, if you will, work to depress democracy. not a great thing to be doing in america these days. we start with the senate race up in pennsylvania. joining me right now is senator arlen specter. senator specter, thank you for coming on tonight. i want you to talk about your tv

ad running in pennsylvania right now. here's the ad, we're going to run it free for you. i want you to respond to why you're running it right now. here it is. let's listen. >> joe sestak. releeved of duty in the navy for creating a poor command climate. joe sestak, the worst attendance of any pennsylvania congressman. and near the bottom of the entire congress. last year alone, sestak missed 127 votes. he says the missed votes weren't important. he went campaigning instead. let's say no to no-show joe. >> and here's part of a web video your campaign put out last summer, let's watch that and we have one more to show. all three of them we're showing tonight. >> he wants you to vote for him. but doesn't vote for us. joe sestak, awol for pennsylvania. >> i'm arlen specter and i approved this message. >> here's a website sponsored by your campaign called no-show

joe. it says joe sestak awol. senator, as four weeks to go before the primary, why are you focusing on this man's 31-year military career and not his political positions? >> well, i'm not focusing on that. i'm focusing most heavily on my own very positive record. and i'm speaking about that on the stump and i'm advertising it on television. but when congressman sestak puts on a commercial touting his service and i commend him for most of his service. but it's relevant and the voters ought to know why he was terminated. and it is not my words, but it's the words of the navy "times" and the army "times" that he was terminated because of poor command climate. and when he puts on this ad, which is in violation of d.o.d. rules, because there's no

disclaimer, i think i'm entitled to reply. the voters ought to know the whole story. listen, this isn't my opinion. these are facts. >> sestak said a new chief of operations came in, mike mullen and replaced vernon clark. vernon clark says this about him. this is vernon clark, the cno who appointed him. he did what i asked him to do, i wanted straight talk, and this put him in the crosshairs, he challenged people who didn't want to be challenged. this guy is a courageous, a patriot's patriot. a new cno came in, the new cno had the prerogative to remove him, he did you say the word, relieved of duty and terminated. those words sound like he was fired, like he did something wrong. that he was not getting a good performance review. what was it? >> well that's what the military journals say, that he was fired.

and he has commented about what admirable clark said. but when admirable mullen came in, he terminated him. and as the pittsburgh "post-gazette" quoted and i wrote it down. these are not my words. the pittsburgh "post-gazette" on april 5th said a current admiral said that sestak had quote a tyrannical leadership style. he would command by fear and intimidation. and that was why he was terminated. because of his poor command climate. listen, those aren't my words, those are the reports in the army "times," the navy "times" and currently-serving admiral. >> let me ask you about his whole military record. you said something relatively positive about most of his military record. he served, he's an annapolis guy, he graduated second in his class, he's the highest-ranking former military offerser ever

elected to the u.s. congress. he served for 3 is years in the navy he retired as a three-star admiral and at one point he led an aircraft carrier battle group in afghanistan and he also was with the navy's deep blue anti-terror team after 9/11. he has had a long record. do you think it's fair on your part to run an ad four weeks before the primary that said he was relieved of duty? it sounds to me like you're really, really killing the guy in terms of his 31-year record, based on perhaps how well he didn't get along with the new cno. >> well i am not questioning any of the positive things you've said. and i agree that that part of his record is commendable. but it is relevant as to why he was terminated. and when he runs an ad, touting himself, i think the public is entitled to have all of the facts. and that's what we have laid on the line. look here, when we talk about

his absenteeism and missing votes, we're not questioning his judgment or speculating about what, who may be right or who may be wrong. we have dealt with hard facts. and i think that the public is entitled to know all the facts. if he wants a promotion to be a senator, why hasn't he done his job as a member of the house of representatives? the worst record of anybody in the pennsylvania delegation. now should that not be brought to the public? >> well let's talk about the public interest and not the interest of either of your candidacies. you've been a respected member of the senate for 30 years. you've been very successful in getting re-elected and people think you're a smart guy and you're on your game. but the question i guess the public has a right to ask is, why don't you confront him to his face about this stuff? why don't you debate him on television like this you're a prosecutor, you know the rules of the courtroom. you have a right to be confronted with the evidence against you in person. in court. why don't you debate this fellow on television like we're doing,

i'm not doing it for him. but i'm trying to serve up i guess this debate. are you going to debate him on television? >> the answer is yes. i've agreed to a statewide televised debate. in all the markets. when he ran for re-election 2008, his opponent won a series of debates and he said no. and why did he say no? well that's the customary response of an incumbent. listen, chris, it's difficult to get name recognition, to get people to know you. i travel to virtually every one of pennsylvania's 67 counties every year. it's hard work. well, let congressman sestak earn his own name recognition. i've agreed to the debate. we also had another debate where i confronted him. we debated before the democratic women. several weeks ago. we had a joint appearance before a group in pittsburgh.

we've, we've been together and eel have his debate. and listen, chris, he has not spared the rod in criticizing me. he's been doing it for more than a year. and listen, i've developed a thick skin. i'm not complaining about his criticism of me. i'm talking about my positive record. what i've done on nih funding, bringing jobs to pennsylvania. but i think the public's entitled to know all the facts. and listen, you invite me, i appear. i'm very accessible. i've been on msnbc, this is my third time in 36 hours. >> i know you're on a lot. let me ask you, when will this debate be, so people watching it will know when to tune in? >> may 1st, 7:00. statewide. all the television markets, full hour. >> that's saturday night at 7:00. >> yup. >> okay,well good luck in the debate, senator, you've answered quiet for me, the guy was

terminated, he was relieved of duty, i personally hope you have more than one debate. but that's your call. senator arlen specter of pennsylvania. coming up, president obama went up to new york to take on wall street. how did he do? but first, during the commercials, among the field of 2012 gop hopefuls for president, who's up and who's down? the latest numbers, we'll tell you in a minute. you're watching "hardball." mak. ♪ we make them tougher. ♪ we make them legendary. we make them better... ♪ to make your life better. ♪ and we've never made one... quite like this. the 100% electric nissan leaf. ♪ so, at national, i go right past the counter... and you get to choose any car in the aisle. choose any car? you cannot be serious! okay. seriously, you choose.

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industry here. because i want to urge you to join us, instead of fighting us in this effort. welcome back to "hardball," that was the president in new york earlier today, asking wall street to stop opposing financial reform. did he close the sale on reform and really get tough with wall street? i don't know. joe walsh is editor in chief of "salon." i want to hear from firebrand out west here, i thought i got too much rainbow lamb from this guy. a little too casual and not enough fire-eating huey long if our president. what do you think? >> you got barack obama, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. i'm with you, i wanted to see more fire. he wasn't teddy roosevelt. he wasn't franklin roosevelt. a lot of people on the blogosphere were bringing up the famous old fdr speech where he talked about the banks and the evil corporate interest, he said they hate me and i welcome their

hatred. that's not barack obama. >> he gets their hatred, whether he welcome it is or not. he might as well welcome it. >> exactly. it's very unlikely that they're going to join him on this one. to me, it's not about style. ultimately it's what's in the bill how tough is the bill. from all indications it sounds like there's going to be a lot of loopholes even in this tough and encouraging derivatives legislation. that's what worries me. he can talk as cool as he wants. but i want to see some toughness in the bill and i don't know that we're going to get it. >> there's not enough teeth in the bill, pat, do you agree? >> i think it's more graduate seminar than anything else. i don't think you can do the fdr denouncing the money-changers. how about money-changers and the temple of our civilization, when lloyd blankfein, the head of goldman sachs and whose company who gave you $1 million. obama is playing president, he's

being magnanimous in victory. >> has he rolled them. he's got richard shelby aboard. >> well you don't rub somebody's nose in the dirt. be magnanimous. i think he handled it very well all the way around. chris, that's not him. i remember gerald ford's friend asked me, should he go after the media as agnew did. i said no, he can't do it, he won't do it. it's not him. he won't follow through. barack obama is what you saw up there today. >> my question is this -- it's an american question. it's totally logical. it's the same question we asked after 9/11. after all the precautions, after all the homeland security, fighting terrorism and all that stuff, could it happen again, exactly the same way it happened where the guy's coming down from portland, maine, same four guys getting on the plane. what's it stop it this time? what's to stop the masters of the universe from coming up with some new gizmo, some weird scheme and doesn't it all over again? >> it could happen again. suppose you had the eu, spain

and italy, gone just as greece did. the banks would start down and if jp morgan, we would go in and rescue jp morgan. >> because? >> because if they go under, they drag everybody under with them. >> so in the end, the argument was made today by one of our commentators in real-time, joan, your thoughts, that no matter what they say about this $50 billion package they got ready, they gleaned from the industry in case they need it. that in the end, if somebody goes down, and it's $100 billion or $200 billion or whatever, they're going to get bought off and the rich guys are going to walk away, bankrolled once again insured by the federal government's fear of too big to fail. yes, again? >> yeah. i think there's a big democratic debate, actually right now, chris. whether you need to go in the direction of the sharrod brown, ted kaufmann too big to fail bill and set limits on how big the banks can be and what

percentage they can be lending. how vulnerable that makes us. the obama white house seems not to love that idea. chris dodd seems not to love that idea. a lot of us think we need both. we need tough regulation, but we also need to break up some of these banks and create things that are -- >> we need judge green and judge green and ma bell being broken up again. >> i don't think you're being fair to the democrats. >> okay. >> you're not. if the big one goes down this time, they do like general motors, they're going to wipe out the leadership, wipe out the shareholders. >> okay. for everybody watching, that's the good news. i'm told, joan, that in europe, when they bail somebody out, they blow it all the big shots are gone. the minute you take a dollar or a pound or a franc from the government, the deal is,çóñr yo. nobody stays. let's look at it here's the president, completely shot down republican claims that the reform bill would translate into endless taxpayer bailout. that's the frank luntz talking point. what a victory for frank luntz,

the president of the united states has to go to cooper union and respond to your talking points, here's the president taking on luntz-y. >> what's not legitimate is to suggest that somehow the legislation being proposed is going to encourage future taxpayer bailouts. as some have claimed. that makes for a good sound byte, but it's not factually accurate. it is not true. a vote for reform is a vote to put a stop to taxpayer-funded bailouts. that's the truth. end of story. and nobody should be fooled in this debate. >> well, joan, somewhere, somewhere, frank luntz, he's in england, i guess is having a thrill going through his brain right now. because he has concocted a phrase, "endless taxpayer-funded bailouts" which has become mitch mcconnell's prayer book. his catechism. >> even when it's shown to be a lie, chris, which is unfortunate. you know, they are saying, i saw

austin golsby said it the other day, said they're going to go in, if this happens again, they will not be bailed out, they'll be thrown into bankruptcy. there's a level at which people want to see the guys who screw it up, and they are mostly guys, don't mean to be sexist. taken out. they don't want them to get bonuses, they don't want them to get golden parachutes. i'm a little worried that the administration has indicated it will compromise on this readministration restructuring fund. because of so much republican opposition. which i think is kind of ridiculous. these are fees paid by the bank. there will be administrative costs in bankruptcy, somebody needs to cover those costs. this was an innovative way to do it. but obama, because he's getting pushback is already saying, maybe we don't have to have it in the bill. >> a wonderful name like joan walsh, a nice name, beautiful, just making reference to a guy named austin ghoulsby. >> he's got a perfectly nice name, too.

>> something out of dickens. >> i like austin ghoulsby. >> i know he's a good source. let's go to this, bottom line, pat, as the summer ends, it looks to me like this was going to be a fight that would go on through september and they were going to sign the bill, cleaning up wall street, restricting it in all of these ways, saying no more money for the guys that win when there's a bailout. and they would sign it statement that lehman brothers would go down, in september. and it looks like the fight is going to be over before that. >> the republicans basically are giving him a bye. they say, we're not going to fight you on this particular battle, let's move on to the next one. he wins, but he doth have a big one. >> are they going to roll on this? >> it looks like they'll never say he won. they'll never say he won. the people who didn't vote for it will continue to use these talking points about bailouts, they'll treat him unfairly, no matter what happens.

i happen to think it's a good thing to get it out of the way, as long as there's teeth in it the idea of dragging it out over the summer. we saw what happened with health care reform and death panels and the lies that can spring up. i think he they should get it down now while they have the votes. >> would he be smart if he did energy next, come down in the center. come down in the center one time progressive and the center on this, on cleaning up wall street. the center on energy and put off immigration? if he does immigration next, i think he ruins the summer. your thoughts, pat? >> if he does immigration now eel be torn to pieces on it and he will lose the battle. he may have been pushed into doing the immigration by the hispanic caucus which came aboard. >> what's he better to do energy now as we start using more gas this summer and worry about gas prices or do immigration to meet the concerns of the hispanic voters? >> he's being pushed to do immigration, but it's largely because of the idiotic racial profiling law in arizona, that's what's pushing them. >> try to explain it to history,

i did it because of arizona. >> i don't think he can afford to take latinos for granted. >> he's got a big supreme court battle coming up. >> joan walsh, thank you, pat buchanan. up next, vice president joe biden talks about his bfd in the "side show." you're watching "hardball." ♪

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hah! back to haubl, time for the "side show." first, joe biden's bfd. earlier the vice president gave a look behind the view of his hot microphone moment during last month's health care signing. guess who it didn't bother -- the president. here's the veep on thevi"the vi"

>> i realized there was a mic micropho microphone, but i didn't realize it was that sensitive. after it was over we walked out and we got into the limo to go over to another event and he was laughing like the devil. and i said, what's so funny. i don't see anything funny about this. and he said, katie, my secretary told me that when you said that, everybody could hear it. and i said, oh, god. >> it's becomes such a lasting bfd. up next, the man behind the famous ad campaign has lost his job after leaving a nasty voicemail message for the tea party group, freedom works. here's the voicemail. see if you can recognize the voice. >> hi there, i'm doing a paper about freedom works and i was wondering if somebody could give me a call back. i'm wrapping up and i just have one more piece of information i need to get from you guys?

just need to know, what the percentage is of people that are mentally retarded who work for the organization, and are, are members of it. and one final thing, also, wondering what your plans are, how to spin it when one of your members does actually kill somebody. wondering how, if you've got an actual pr-spinning routine planned for that? or are you just going to take it when it happens? >> voicemail recognize the voice? larry baxter from the geico ads. baxter says he left the voicemail after hearing about the slurs yelled at members of congress during the run-up to the health care vote. he said leaving the voicemail was stupid and doesn't blame geico for giving him the axe for leaving the message. footbally, illinois ex-governor rod blagojevich to

speubpoena president obama to speak at his trial. remember by the way, b-rod is up on charges of trying to sell the president's old senate seat. the white house isn't commenting. now for the number, the white house is said to have ten names on its short list to replace supreme court justice john paul stevens -- who is leading? current solicitor general, elena kagan, with 41%. she's also a former harvard law dean. kagan's odds are almost even to make it to the supreme court, 41%. up next, congressman ron paul and the future of the movement he helped create, the tea party, the libertarians. you're watching "hardball."

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cnbc market wrap. stocks climbed from a morning plunge to finish modestly higher. the dow jones industrial average adding nine points, the s&p 500 up two and the nasdaq gaining 14. concerns about greece continuing to weigh on the markets, this morning it was news that its debt in relation to gdp was higher than expected. stocks began to recover around midday, despite a wave of lackluster earnings forecast. qualcomm shares plunging and nokia plunging 13% on a weak forecast due to stepped-up competition in the smartphone market. and posting earnings after the closing bell, amazon moving sharply lower, despite beating expectations. microsoft also on the decline after hours, the tech giant beating on earnings and revenue as well, citing strong sales of windows seven and the xbox. now back to "hardball."

welcome back. we saw thousands of tea partiers rally in washington on tax day last week and a recent political poll shows the movement is split between social conservatives, who look to sarah palin as their leader and libertarians who look to congressman ron paul. it's an honor to have you, sir, you're a leader of a movement. sometimes you remind me of my hero growing up, who was in fact barry goldwater. and then i grew up and i began to see the complications of life like people get old and they don't have a lot of ability to save money, so they need social security and we need a civil rights bill, even if it was done under the interstate commerce clause. but the fact is it isn't always as clear and simple as libertarian philosophy would argue. you have stuck to your position. you still believe way less government is way better. z but aren't we on the verge of proving our point? social security sounds good, but it's broke. and even if they take care of

sending out the checks, eventually the checks won't buy anything because we'll just print the money. i think our point has been proven. that's what this whole movement is about. that's what the tea party movement is about. i mean, the failure of government is everywhere around us. >> let's just take -- i used to argue this with my dad, who with a sort of middle-of-the-road republican. he would say, some people don't save money. they live paycheck to paycheck. all of a sudden they're 65, they don't have any money. in the old days you would move in with your kids. in the modern society, the kids have moved to the suburb and you're in the old neighborhood. that's why it didn't work. government felt it needed to have some kind of safety net for retired people. >> there's a moral issue there as well. the person that didn't save and spent their money and had no money when they were 65, why does that give them a moral right to take it from the person who was frugal and save. >> because you force them to pay in. >> what if you didn't force

them? >> that's the problem my father would say. if you don't have a social security system, what are you going to do? >> you're going to be a lot better off than a social security system where everybody is dependant and it goes broke. >> would we be better off getting rid of it? >> i would, i would take care of these, these people who are totally dependant by stopping the money being spent overseas and i would have a transition. in order to do that. >> overseas, that -- >> that's the only place that you can -- >> let me ask you about this health care bill. it always seems to me when people say, i don't want a helmet, fine, drive without a pell met. but when you get picked up on the highway and you're all messed up and the ambulance gets there, and you get the best treatment you can get you. society does look out for its individual members, it does. libertarians say, i don't need society the i don't want to pay

into health care. is that logical? >> that means you create the moral hazard, the person go out and say, i don't have to worry, if i get hurt, somebody else is going to take care of me. where do he have the moral right to say that i've been injured, it's a socialization of medicine. this idea that government will take care of me. >> no, but doesn't the person have to take responsibility and buy health insurance? >> i think they have to have responsibility for their life. if they injure themselves, if they're stupid, we can't protect people against themselves. >> but when you get a stroke, you have a heart attack, something goes wrong with you at the workplace and somebody has to look out for you, isn't it better that society says wait a minute, while you're young and healthy, kick into health care so that when something goes wrong, you've already begun to contribute. >> i think where we disagree -- >> where we disagree is you use the word society rare carelessly. who is society? society is just everybody. but there's only a few people who are in congress someplace

dictating who society is and who pays, who gets bailed out and who doesn't. under a society where people are responsible for themselves, they have to suffer the consequences. if they don't take care of themselves they have to depend on charity, their friends, their neighbors or their churches, but you would have a lot fewer people, now we're going to have a whole society, now we have 21% of the people that are underemployed because of this false illusion about keynian economics. there is going to be nobody else to bail them out. society won't be there. >> so the government should not have pushed a big spending bill in the face of the looming second great depression. >> that was horrible. exactly the opposite. >> he should have cut spending and put the money, i would have -- >> that's what hoover did. >> what? >> cut spending. >> no. hoover was every bit as bad as roosevelt. hoover, hoover -- >> you want to go back to coolidge? >> well -- >> you guys love coolidge.

>> how about, how about -- thomas jefferson? how about a few people like that. believed in freedom and free market. >> let's look at the tea party movement that you in a way, you and barry goldwater going back, people believe there's too much government, i understand the impulse. some people in the tea party movement don't exactly go along with that. they're more for palin. they love, you know, outlaw abortion. a lot of other issues, they're very concerned with they don't like the same-sex. is the tea party movement too social and not economic enough for you? how would you describe what you see in that? >> i don't think anybody can describe it yet. they're claim there's a difference. but they all say that i am not as interested in the social issues. but you know, in many ways here i am a very conserve person. >> you're not running around touting the evils of same-sex marriage. i don't hear you talking about that. >> but to say i'm not interested in family values, i happen to be married and have kwhirld. >> but you're not out there waving flags --

>> i believe in values, but i do not believe in using force to put those values. i don't believe in using force to make you a better person for your own sake. but i don't believe in putting force on you to make you more responsible economically. i apply the rules equally to social justice and economic justice. i don't understand this division, why you may defend social liberties rather well, but as soon as it comes to me spending my money on assuming responsibility -- i say, why don't you apply -- >> you're the only one that i know. most people who say that they're libertarians always come back in and say, yeah, but no same-sex marriage and let's outlaw abortion. >> i think the consistent position is government shouldn't be involved in marriage. why should we have this argument? it's up to anybody's opinion. >> do you think tea party person takes that view? >> probably not. but i think everybody should be able to define it i have my definition of marriage but i don't have the right to impose my views on others.

but no nobody has the right to impose their views on me. >> when i look at the signs they've got hitler moustaches on this guy, the president of the united states. they do crazy colors on his face to play with his ethnic background. hammer and sickle. all of this stuff is really nasty, edgy, i hate the guy, rather than i have a different philosophy of this guy. he got elected president legitimately. why all this delegitimatization. >> i've never seen that on fox. >> you've got to look around a little bit. >> i think it's, i think -- >> most people are aware that this is part of the movement. >> i think it's very small and i think it's ugly. >> almost moving to the center compared to some of those guys, he knows it's going on. >> they've done some detailed polling of these people. these are well-educated people. and probably 99% of the people don't carry ugly signs. >> the signs are carried by

outside agitators? >> maybe the left did. >> you're kidding me, you are kidding me. >> yeah, probably. >> i try to needle you. >> where are you going in a rand paul, he might pull an upset a and win a senate seat for kentucky. >> it looks good. who are you -- you guys have become the bandwagon. who is backing your son now? isn't it mitt romney is backing him? >> i don't think so. >> not yet? >> but bunning did. and bunning is the conservative independent. he was not, he didn't fall into the trap of being part of the establishment. he's anti-establishment. he's with the grassroots. and the tea party people. and the people who like individual liberties and free markets and sound money. i mean they're all for that. >> you guys can win it you can win in florida with marco rubio, you can win in kentucky. >> there's a revolution going on, chris. >> are you the leader? >> no, i'm not a leader.

>> is sarah palin? >> i don't think there is any one leader. >> do you think she could be president by her abilities? >> sure, just look at the past history. almost anybody can become president. >> you're just not saying anything. you're not eeg saying. you're saying there's no standards? >> well -- >> it's a complicated job? >> that's right. but i would say on both republican and democratic sides, people rise to the occasion. all of a sudden they have good advisers. >> harry truman romantic here. thank you, congressman ron paul. up next, congresswoman michelle bachman, another version of the dream here, trying to defend her calling of the obama administration gngster government. i guess she's elliott ness this week. does governor rick perry want to run for the president of this country. i roll past the counter... and choose any car in the aisle. choosing your own car? now that's a good call.

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we're back. president obama seems to be gaining the upper hand in the wall street reform fight. did republicans miscalculate in thinking they could turn bailouts. that term of art they're using in the death panels of this debate. for more, the coming fight on

immigration and michelle bachman's latest gangster talk. let's bring in the strategists. three big questions, first, the fight on wall street, has he won? >> it looks like he's won it the republicans are talking about compromise and bipartisanship and maybe even supporting the bill. >> clinching? >> i think do they see the momentum going the other way. >> like he's boxing, that terminology, is he clenching, don't hit me? >> i think there's going to be some bipartisan compromise, but not until the bailout fund is removed from the bill. there's dissension even on the democratic side. >> $50 billion that's coming from wall street itself, not taxpayer money. >> but it gets passed on to taxpayers, wall street is not just going to write out a check for $50 billion and hand it over without passing on the fees to their customers and it's getting paid by the taxpayers. >> it's a little bit disingenuous, the money comes

from the big institutions and it's to be dismantled them if they fail. to get rid of their ceo, so they can fail and go out of business. it's the opposite of a bailout. it's a put them out of business fund, is what it is. >> on main street there's no government fund if some mom-and-pop shop goes belly-up, there's no government fund to come in and help those people out. if a financial institution makes risky decisions and they go belly-up, the officers ought to be out on the streets. the shareholders ought to lose their money. >> wall street, the republican party's a.c.o.r.n.? >> the answer is yes. >> i think it is. >> i don't know. >> when president obama -- >> the big embarrassment. >> here's an trug fact from a gallup poll. if you say wall street reform, the numbers go 15%. when you reform -- >> when president obama gives back the money he took from

goldman sachs. >> immigration in arizona, the states are getting tough, given up on the federal government to enforce the law. >> a little bit of -- >> no. law enforcement official is doing it. it cuts which way? >> i actually think it cuts both ways. at the end of the day, it cuts for the democrats, hispanics saying, what are they doing and why are they doing it? john mccain, with a primary opponent is supporting this. john mccain cosponsored it with ted kennedy. >> what will the -- >> president obama and the leaders on the hill are talking about moving immigration reform maybe even ahead of climate change. >> will they keep the by metric system in there or will it be more bs? >> it talks about -- >> the key is the id card. will they have it in there? it's in there now. >> i think they have to keep it

in there to keep it passed. >> sanchez is open to it but doesn't like it but thinks they might have to have it. >> it's probably good short term politics. i agree with steve, this is bad long term politics. >> i don't why we say everybody who's here is here and nobody else gets in illegally. >> the way you take care of the immigration problem is secure the border. >> we're reaching common ground. >> here's michelle bachmann at the tea party rally. let's listen to michelle bachmann. >> they don't realize that your way iq scores are way above average! we're on to them. we are on to this gangster government. >> bill clinton reacted to that in the, not saying, quote, they are not gangsters, they were elected. they are not doing anything they weren't elected to do.

what is this delegislatemization from your crowd. what is this about? >> i think if you talked to president bush -- >> nobody said he wasn't an american. >> he certainly was elected. >> he was elected, right. >> if that election had gone the other way in florida, in 2000, if the other guy hat the vote, i think the republicans wouldn't have accepted at all the way al gore took it like man, conceded even though he got more votes. would you guys have bowed to the spreadsheet court. >> i agree, al gore took it like man. the liberal base of the democratic party is still whining about it. >> would you guys on the right have taken it? would you have let the supreme court pick a president? >> there would have been generals in uniform. here's bachmann the other day talking on the hill.

not backing down. >> do you think it's right to use the words gangster government? >> absolutely, i do. the example is the automobile task force. that's a gangster move. when they come in and decide who the winners are and losers are, there's no recourse. that's what happened to 34 dealerships across the country. that's one gangster government. >> i think it was the consumer -- >> if gangster government means the government picks winners and losers, i don't like gangster government. >> here's what she does, she's managed to slander people from chicago and african americans at the same time. >> italian. >> it may be clever but it's -- >> i don't think you're pronouncing the word right. it is a gangsta. >> it has a racial undertone. >> i didn't think of that. >> it absolutely does, absolutely has a racial undertone. >> oh -- >> what do you guys think of it

on the far right. rubio? un-american? >> you ever been to a union rally and listen to the language there? >> have you ever been to a union rally? >> i was. i was escorted out. >> when we return, i'll have thoughts on discussing negative campaign commercials. i hope this guy never makes any. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. literally across the street from her sister. [ banker ] but someone else bought it before they could get their offer together. we really missed a great opportunity -- dodged a bullet there. [ banker ] so we talked to them about the wells fargo priority buyer preapproval. it lets people know that you are a serious buyer because you've been credit-approved. we got everything in order so that we can move on the next place we found. which was clear on the other side of town. [ male announcer ] wells fargo. with you when you're ready to move.

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