for you right there. going to be more than 300,000 people there tomorrow and we're pretty excited about it. i'll be a featured speaker there as there will be many on stage. for more information on the march you can go to wegotit.com. that's "the ed show." i'm ed schultz. "hardball" starts right now. have a great weekend. see you back here on monday on "the ed show." i'm chris matthews, and this is london. let's play "hardball." >> good evening, i am chris matthews, of course, i'm glad to be coming to you from london. always wanted to say that in the words of edward r. murrow. i've been traveling to bill clinton trying to catch up what he's been doing as an ex-president. it's been a phenomenal experience.

we'll be giving it to you in an hour-long documentary. leading off tonight, prime minister's question time. tony blair formed half of that famous special relationship with bill clinton. i asked the former british prime minister how clinton was able to unite progressives in our country and also political centrists behind him and why the clinton brand has remained an enduringnorse our politics and around the world. my one-on-one interview with tony blair at the top of the show. plus, big trouble for meg whitman. we find out her husband knew their housekeeper had immigration issues. whitman, paladino and o'donnell, are some republican candidates this year, just not ready for primetime? and president obama's at it again, urging young voters not to quit on him, after taking a whack at his liberal supporters earlier in the week. is this like the coach blasting the team at halftime and will it win the game? also a sad story about america came to light today when the u.s. government apologized for intentionally infecting

people down in guatemala in the late 1940s with venereal disease. a wellesley professor investigating the experiments on african-american men made this discovery. we'll talk to her about it tonight. let me finish tonight about what bill clinton told me about the upcoming election. all that is ahead. first the latest poll numbers. in the hot races around the country. let's go to the "hardball" scoreboard. we'll start with the new york governor's race. raisation basic question about that guy's fitness for office. in new hampshire, republican kelly ayotte is solidifying her lead over democrat paul hodes. finally to alaska, in what may be a truer test for senator lisa murkowski. republican joe miller leads at 43% right now. scott mcadams is at 28%. just 18% of respondents volunteered murkowski's name. she's running as a write-in

candidate. but when pollsters offered up her name, her total dropped to 43%. miller dropped down to 36% and mcadams was way down to 14%. the problem for murkowski, there will be no one in the booth yelling out the name murkowski. we'll continue to check the "hardball" scoreboard on the big races each night leading up to election day. now, my interview -- had is going to be great, you will like this -- with the former minister, prime minister of great britain, united kingdom, tony blair, who's now the envoy in the middle east talks on behalf of the u.n., eu, russia, and us. we spent a lot of time talking about bill clinton. and i began by asking him what makes the former president, bill clinton, such a dominant politician even today. >> i think he is the master of the trade really. i mean, i think he's the single most extraordinarily ept and confident politician i've ever met. and that's not because he's

simply good at communicating, good at the art of politics. it's because he's actually, and this is the thing i think people don't understand about him sufficiently, it's all anchored in fact in very strong and very well-worked out convictions. people sometimes see him as the great communicator, but that's, you know, he was just a good politician as it were. he's not -- he has a core of beliefs that are very, very strong and that completely define where modern progressive politics has got to be if it's going to be successful. >> how did he tie together and how does he tie together this centrist leaning liberalism, if you will? somehow he's positioned himself close to the center and the progressive side that grabs the loyalty of working people, as we say in our country, working middle class people. >> because he understands people. he's fascinated about people, he's curious about people.

i remember when he came to the liverpool conference in blackpool. in a strange old seaside town in the uk. we were supposed to meet him after he had spoken. we found him eventually down in the local mcdonald's. you know, holding court with all the people at blackpool who were surprised to see bill clinton suddenly amongst them. i mean, people who went in to find him found him sitting there talking with these people literally as if he was their local counselor and had been for many, many years. it was an extraordinary thing. so you see, he has got this ability, therefore, to feel where people are. but here is the thing that's very interesting about him. he's -- he's got modern progressive politics. he's got a framework that i sometimes describe in shorthand in social terms for what i will call the tough on law and order

pro gay rights position. he understands that our generation and younger, they don't have these old prejudices that, frankly, my dad used to have and probably yours, too, and all the rest. but they don't like people who beat up other people or misbehave or any of the rest of it. in other words, they want rules but not prejudices. his ability to define that, that's just an example, meant that he pitched the democrats exactly where they needed to be. so it's -- >> people that work hard and play by the rules. >> yeah. and it's a -- it's born out of a complete understanding of the generation you lead. >> do you think that's because he comes from that background, sort of middle class, middle, middle, middle, not upper middle, sort of regular person? >> yeah, but also because i think he's genuinely interested in people. you know, and that's what a great politician is a politician. is always somebody who's

genuinely interested in what makes people tick. sometimes it's a funny thing in politics. you meet politicians who are pretty successful and so on, but it's very much a game of calculation for them and you sometimes -- this is particularly so in progressive politics. you come across politicians who love humanity in general, just don't love them in particular. >> that's what we said about woodrow wilson i think, didn't like anybody in particular. >> but the thing with bill clinton is, he actually likes them in particular, too. >> let me ask you about his success among independents. we have a new nbc poll that came out the other night that showed among democrats he's obviously very popular. that's no surprise. among independents, the hardest people to reach in america, because they don't really trust politicians, he's up 4-1. he only has 1 in 6 independents who doesn't approve of him, in today's environment, as you know, the tough economy is so rare. >> that's because his political position is dead center. and it is a very modern

political position. so the old left would have said the answer to our problems is big state. >> right. >> big government. he doesn't. he says, actually, we need to reinvent government, make it strategic, make it empowering. the old left would have said, we're with the unions and the business are the people we have to deal with but we deal with them at arms length. he understands completely for a modern progressive to win, have at least some part of business on your side. so he just -- he's got a set of positions that make people in the center ground very comfortable with him. and they actually understand that he believes those positions. i mean, they're not tactical maneuvers. >> by today's standards it's almost uncanny how good he is. let me ask you about his position today. it's hard to believe, but he's out of office, not president, for ten years now. he's now into his second president after him. and yet the other day up in

northern ireland, we watched the people react to him. i mean, not to put them down, but robinson and mcginnis were ignored. the local political leaders of that country, of that part of the world ignored while they all cheered bill clinton. what is that endurance about after all these years, ten years. >> i think people like him. i actually think they like him. they feel comfortable with his personality and they actually think he's -- he's human. and they think he's approachable. and they think he's smart. that's a pretty rare combination, never mind in politics, in me walk of life. >> you called him a brick in your book. by the way, i really like this book. it's the only politician, you are, sir, who actually talks about being a politician which is like you're not embarrassed by it. you talked about when you thought for northern ireland peace and you deserve obviously the major credit for bringing

together two communities out there, the nationalists and loyalist communities, protestant and catholic. you said during all of that you would call on president clinton across the atlantic and say, would you help me on this, help me on that, make this call? you called him a brick. i'm told that's an old private school expression over here. private school expression over here. what is a brick? >> it means real solid help, support. >> do people still talk like that here? >> i don't -- i think it must have lapsed into early 20th century. >> helpful to you? >> yeah, he was -- the thing about him in the northern ireland context was that, you know, obviously, although he was very interested in ireland. it was not his political backyard. it was mine. the great thing about him, i used to call him and talk to him. you never had to explain the politics beyond about one sentence. the moment you gave him just the moment general of context he could go right to what the whole thing was about, work out why jerry adams might want to do this and david trimble might want to do that. it was almost uncanny this

ability just to understand the politics of the situation almost instantaneously and based on, you know, there he sat thousands of miles away. >> let's talk about the toughest question, that's the problem you're facing now. representing the quartet as part of these very difficult talks. sometimes i get very optimistic because i look at bibi netanyahu, who grew up in philadelphia, who has to keep a tough coalition together with the parties. yet he may want to be a historic figure. how do you nuance that? how do you find your way with mahmoud abbas? obviously imbasht israeli settlements. how do you keep this going now? >> it's very frustrating right now, because i believe on the basis of many conversations with prime minister netanyahu and of course with president abbas. both leaders, both sides genuinely want to make this work. so if we can only get this

negotiation moving along, i think it is a more real negotiation than any i can remember. in other words, i think that if they come to an agreement, both of them are capable of selling it to each side of this conflict. and, you know, the prime minister netanyahu, particularly, if he's come back to office after a long time period of time out of office, when i sit with him as i often do, one thing is absolutely clear. he didn't come back just to sit there at the prime minister's desk. he's done that before. he's come back to make a difference historically for his country. likewise, mahmoud abbas is a man who actually pretty rarely in politics, he genuinely is prepared to walk away. genuinely. in fact, sometime the worry is he will just walk away. he's there because he wants to do this deal.

so if we could only get over this -- this difficult impasse at the moment over the settlement question, i think, and genuinely believe we have the best chance and hope in the generation for peace. >> last question. the clinton brand, once again, it's at work here. you have secretary of state hillary clinton at the table. representing the united states. really putting her head into this. this is a frontline issue where she's really having, former senator of new york, member of a big political family in the united states. she has a lot at stake here in the united states, people who want peace over there. how do you see her role and the clinton brand once again playing a role here? >> i think there's enormous respect for the brand. i think there is actual respect for her, personally. you know, quite apart from president clinton. and that's because people think, you see, she went and she paid her dues as a senator, actually people respected the campaign that she ran for the presidency. they respect enormously the fact

that having lost it she didn't gripe about it. she got behind president obama and took on the role of being secretary of state. she is somebody who understands this issue. you know, she's been in and around it -- >> she knows the politics in america, too. >> totally. and she knows how, i think, she can make the politics between the israeli and the palestinian side work together and do it in a way that carries, which is important, carries american opinion with her. >> are you still optimistic? >> i am still optimistic, but then i think i'm a born optimistic. >> thank you very much, mr. blair. >> thanks. >> thanks for your time. >> thanks, chris. that interview with prime minister tony blair is part of a documentarily we're working on as a former president bill clinton in his role as an ex-president.

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welcome back to "hardball."

california's republican candidate for governor, meg whitman, is in hot water now. looks like her husband was alerted to the possibility that their housekeeper was an illegal immigrant. yesterday whitman said if the social security administration ever sent her a letter requesting information on her housekeeper the housekeeper must have intercepted it. >> neither my husband, nor i, received any letter from the social security administration. and if there is a letter out there, i don't know how they got it. we never saw the letter. nicky did bring in our mail and sort the mail. if she had gotten a letter two weeks before, alerting her to a problem and saying we're going to alert your employer, she might have been on a lookout for that letter. i mean, it pains me to say that, because gosh, that's not the nicky i knew. so gosh, it would pain me to believe that's what she had done, but i have no other explanation. >> well, i don't know. the housekeeper's attorney gloria allred unveiled a letter yesterday which showed a scribbled note she says was

written, handwritten by whitman's husband. there's the handwriting. >> meg whitman and her husband deny receiving the letter, but please look at the bottom of the letter. on it, dr. harsh has written, quote, nicky, please check this, thanks, end quote. nicky recognizes this as dr. harsh's writing since he wrote her many notes. he wrote this on the letter and then gave it to nicky. >> well the revolution prompted whitman's husband then prompted dr. griffharsh to release a statement, quote, while i honestly do not recall receiving this letter as it was sense to me seven years ago i can say it a possible i would have scratched a followup note on a letter like this. it looks like the family knew

something was a problem. chris cillizza is with the "washington post" and an msnbc political analyst. david corn is the washington bureau chief for mother jones and also a contributor to politicsdaily.com. david corn, i don't see any way this doesn't hurt whitman because she's running as this knowledgeable businesswoman who's competent, has her affairs together, well organized. here she is looking like she's covering up -- the usual game that so many people play in this country a game that so many play in this country and trying to deny the obvious fact that she was hiring this person illeg illegally. her husband made the remarks on it. he's not denying it. that statement was cleverly written. he's admitting he signed off on that letter. what do you make of this? >> it's hard to believe if a couple had had a housekeeper they liked and there was a problem, one spouse wouldn't tell the other at some point. they'd say, i'm taking care of it, don't worry about it, but there would be some knowledge passed.

meg whitman has spent about $150 million so far and she still hasn't really sold her story to the voters of california, so this, you know, can't help, and maybe will distract from the next $150 million she's going to be spending on campaign ads. >> you have to ask, why, if she's a good democrat, a good person i should say, a compassionate person, why years ago when she realized the person working for her, she was affectionate toward, didn't peel off a few of the 150 billion bucks she has to spend to get her an immigration lawyer and help her out. why would she be so callous to have her say take care of this, nicky? >> i still think, chris -- well, let's say this. meg whitman is trying to turn it into a she said versus she said. i think the note does not help, the husband coming out saying i may have written that is not helpful. meg whitman moved very hard to

the right on illegal immigration during the primary to win the primary. she was supposed to win by a lot. it narrowed because she was being attacked on immigration issue. she moved to the right which i do not think she wanted to do. this brings that up again. remember the hispanic vote, a very powerful bloc of voters in california. she does not want to be relitigating this out a month essentially before the election. so whether she's right or wrong, morally, she's clearly wrong politically right now. she wants to be talking about anything other than this. this has already basically a week-long story. i think it's probably going to go into next week. there's no reason to think it's going to stop now. >> this isn't going away. you're right. chris is right. >> what the person is really like, they want to know what's happening, the real story about the person, not the stuff they pay speechwriters to write for them. they want the real story on a person. >> chris, can i just say -- >> yeah, go ahead. >> can i say very, very quickly, it's more dangerous for whitman

than some other candidate because of her wealth. wealthy candidates struggle to say, okay, i may be a billionaire but i understand the concerns of the average working person. because it's so wealthy it's a bigger hurdle she has to -- >> she could have taken care of this. you get a note from immigration, you have the ability to deal with it one way or another. but they didn't seem to do that. >> here's part of a confrontation the other day between karl paladino who is running as governor of new york and fred dicker from "the new york post." asking him about show me the evidence you have of andrew cuomo and his personal life. here it is. let's listen. >> do you have the evidence or do you not? >> i will -- at the appropriate time i will have it there. >> you have three daughters. how can you -- >> i have a daughter, too, fred. i have a daughter. >> you brought it out, fred. that's it. >> stay away from me. >> what evidence do you have? >> listen, all right -- >> you don't -- >> my daughter -- come on. >> go to the bathroom, carl.

>> stay away from me, man, don't touch me. who are you? who the hell are you? i'm trying to ask him a question. do you have evidence of the charge you made. >> in time you'll get it. >> you like the bodyguards. where do these guys come from? anyway pala donno told today's buffalo news he's not accusing kwoem over having extramarital affairs. he said, i was talk to a reporter and said, why don't you ask cuomo about this stuff. he's denying he's charging her with it, but this continues, he's still pushing the story. what do you make of this? he's saying i'm going to bring it out at an appropriate time. what is this appropriate time? here's what paladino said on fox a few hours ago when asked whether he had proof of misbehavior by cuomo. let's listen. >> we will at the appropriate time, okay, say whatever we have in our -- in our box at the appropriate time. yes.

>> so you're not backing off that allegation? you do believe that andrew cuomo has had, or did have extramarital affairs when he was married? >> what i -- what i believe and what is factual out there, we will at the appropriate time put out, yes. >> i don't think roger ailes is behind paladino. just guessing, chris cillizza. what's he got in his box? he's talking about he has some box somewhere with dirt on his opponents. what's this box he has? >> is this a pandora's box? i mean, look, chris, this is what, to be honest, this is what the republican establishment, the tea party's beat them in a lot of places. this is exactly what they were worried about in new york. this is why they tried to recruit a democrat to run in the gubernatorial race. a guy named steve levy. this is why they were ostensibly behind rick lazio. they knew paladino was going to do this.

>> this is a strange crowd. >> he's becoming the joe pesci candidate. >> that's your comment, dave, not mine. let me say this. this guy is making charges and saying, i haveirt in my box here, m going to release it at the appropriate time. what kind of talk is this, i'm going to take you out, i have dirt on you in my box. >> got to love new york politics, chris. rough and tumble. >> thanks, chris cillizza, david corn. forget the pesci references. right wing hysteria. a republican congressman says the campaign by the cdc, the centers for disease control to get americans to eat healthy and somehow, you'll love, it socialism. that word again, there you have it, socialism to try to make it a little healthy by our own food decisions. [ male announcer ] if you have type 2 diabetes, you struggle to control your blood sugar. you exercise and eat right, but your blood sugar may still be high, and you need extra help.

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back to "hardball." now it the "sideshow." first up, the food police are coming. that was the rallying cry for republican congressman paul broun of georgia at a town hall last month. here's broun describing the big problems going on in washington today. >> they will get all power of the federal government to force you to eat more fruits and vegetables. that is what the federal cdc -- they're going to be calling people to find out how many fruits and vegetables you eat a day. this is a socialism of the highest order. >> trouble in river city. socialism of the highest order. the fact is the center for disease control does do nutritional surveys, via the telephone. but this hardly constitutes socialism of the highest order. they're just asking what people are eating to try to get people to start maybe eating better food. another round of science

versus the gop. senator russ feingold's republican challenger, billionaire businessman ron johnson told the associated press he believes global warming is unproven. the quote is, or his quote is, the point is because we're not certain because it's not proven, the last thing we should do is penalize our economy. the science of global warming is unproven. it just is. there's tremendous evidence that human behavior, c02 emissions are driving up greenhouse gases and causing changes in the climate globally. they don't want to face the consequences. ron johnson is selling the happy days' position because it sells to people who don't deep down care about what they're doing to the future of the planet. in the 1960s we called these folks pigs. up next, president obama is turning up the heat on his base. urging young voters not to quit on him. will the president get his core supporters to the polls for next month's midterms? is criticizing the base the best way to get them excited positively?

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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. emergency teams in north carolina have rescued more than a happen people from floodwaters left behind by tropical storm nick poemt flooding is blamed for at least six deaths including a family of four killed by their suvs skidded off of a hot runway. rahm emanuel is ready to take on new challenges after stepping down as chief staff. those challenges include running for mayor of california. her first term on the high court starts on monday. president obama phoned the president of guatemala to personally apologize after the disclosure that american scientists intentionally

infected guatemalan prisoners with syphilis in 1946. bank of america is defending all its foreclosure proceedings in 23 states amid widespread documentation problems. stephen jay kennel died in his home in california last night. he was the brains behind classic shows like "the rockford pile" "greatest american hero." back to "hardball." the biggest mistake we could make is to let impatience or frustration lead to apathy and indifference. because that guarantees the other side wins. and if they do win, they will spend the next two years fighting for the very same policies that led us into this recession in the first place. the same policies that left middle class families behind for more than a decade. the same policies you fought hard to change in 2008. >> wow.

that was president obama last night at a fund-raiser in washington. he's out there trying to rally the base. is he hitting the right notes? clarence page is a syndicated columnist for the "chicago tribune" and alex wagner covers the white house for politicsdaily.com. both of you, why don't you watch the president. here's a couple more of those. first of all, here's something he said last night at a political fund-raiser last night. let's listen to the president. >> now is not the time to quit. now's not the time to give up. we've been through worse as a nation. we've come out stronger from war to depression, to the great struggles for equal rights and civil rights. it took time to free the slaves, it took time for women to get the vote. it took time for workers to get the right to organize, but if we stay on focus, if we stay on

course, then ultimately we will make progress. it takes time. progress takes sacrifice. progress takes faith, but progress comes. >> here's the president on tuesday in wisconsin at madison. that great university out there. let's listen to this. >> you know, the slaves sitting around a fire singing freedom songs, they weren't sure of when slavery would end but they understood it was going to end. when women were marching for the right to vote, they weren't sure when it was going to happen, but they kept on going. when workers were organizing for the right to organize and were being intimidated, they weren't sure when change was going to come, but they knew it was going to come. and i am telling you, wisconsin, we are bringing about change, and progress is going to come, but you have to stick with me. you can't lose heart. >> you know, clarence, that seems like the black church version of "stay the course" that reagan used to say all the

time, very, very emotional, very much from the pulpit, almost religious. >> true, true. and i think reagan was very effective at pushing that message. i think that president obama would had been more effective if he hasn't have waited so close to election time to preach the message. what he's trying to do here is take this current moment and put it in the context of other great historic moments. that's not something that he's really done before in the same kind of way. i mean, he's not really talking about health care and financial reform. those aren't as sexy of a type of topic as the civil rights revolution, the women's rights revolution, the women's right to vote, et cetera. he's trying to put those together now. i don't know that it's altogether working, though. >> you know, it's almost like king, you know, dr. king.

i've seen the promised land. we're not going to quite make it there yet, but do you think it -- what is the story on this president, if you watch him? is he that emotional of jeremiah figure there or is he a cool ivy leaguer? which -- is he both or really the ivy leaguer and now acting like the passionario? >> he's one who thinks about issues, thinks about what is going on, but he also knows how to get to the podium and really be inspirational when the moment comes. when he used his civil rights references during the campaign, i think it worked more effectively than it's working right now and part of it is because of the timing. >> let me go to alex on this question. i'm not sure it's a real question. sometimes i think critics on the right gin up fights on the left. maybe it is a fight. is there a sense he's yelling at the choir? people that are already looking out for him, already are going to vote, are going to show up, and he's taking whacks at the left? is this a real problem of

intramurals within the center left coalition or not? >> you know, chris, i think there are two strategies here. the comments that he made about civil rights and the suffragist movement are targeted to younger voters, millennial voters who turned out in huge numbers for him for 2008. they voted, 66% of them voted for him. his metrics with him are still very high. june, 55% approval rating with him. the stuff with the professional left has to be separated. certainly robert gibbs was on record with "the hill" newspaper saying he thought the professional turned into a bunch of hippies who needed a drug test and wouldn't be happy until the pentagon was dismantled. bill burton this week said folks like keith olbermann and rachel maddow were providing an invaluable service in keep the country honest. every time they sort of try to double back. >> interesting. let's look at something bill clinton said to me.

he's the master at this center left coalition maintenance, if you will. he kept it together. clarence, you're laughing. let's take a look at this. i want to know why you're laughing. here's bill clinton the other day with me. >> it's worth reminding americans that every election is a choice. if you have to run against the ideal, if it's a referendum, every one of us will get beat. nobody would get elected. we'd have nobody in office because there's no such thing as the perfect public servant. every -- the choices you make in politics are like the choices you make in life. you look at the facts as best you can, and you make the best available choice. >> well, clarence, i've had some amazing conversations with the former president the last couple days over here in ireland, especially last night. i have to tell you, he's thinking a lot about this election. i think he's rooting for the president. the question is, how do you put that sort of moxy to work? how do you get the middle, not to think you're a socialist, and and you have to get the people who are pretty far left who do

like the public option and things like that, how do you keep them on the same team? >> well, bill clinton has been through this before, of course. he had a big midterm loss there in '94 where democrats lost both the house and the senate. but they benefited in the long run because of those contrasts that were being drawn. after newt gingrich and the rest of the republican leadership took over congress, he drew those contrasts. they had their clashes. even had two government shutdowns. in both cases polls showed that bill clinton won as far as when the public was given a choice between which leadership they preferred on those issues. and then in '96 bill clinton had a landslide re-election. so i wonder sometimes if the obama white house isn't thinking past these midterms already. >> that's the big question about today's transition in chief of staff. alex, i don't know you very well. i'm getting to meet you on this program really. i want to ask you about your political moxy on this thing. not bringing in a heavyweight from outside, not expanding a circle that's been accused of

being very insular around the president, basically the old chicago crowd. using the chicago chief of staff to the mayor's race, rahm emanuel, bringing up a guy he's had on inside, peter rouse, who's a hill guy. is this growing? is there a sign of life in this administration, in this transition? or a failure to grow? let's be tough here. >> well, you know, yeah, if we're talking about -- rahm is the muscle of all muscles, right? this is the guy that sort of went into every meeting with fisticuffs. pete rouse owns two cats and lives a presumably quiet life. that said, the future for the dems may be somewhat dicey and they may need someone who's more of a mediator. as president obama himself, said, this guy is, quote, egoless. that may be what the white house needs going into 2010, 2011 and 2012. >> wow. they need a dog owner. last thought, clarence, do you like that distinction? cat owners are not the strongest leaders you want here? what do you think, clarence? i don't about that theory. go ahead.

>> i remember a poll a long time ago that showed some liberals had more cat owners and conservatives had more dog i don't if that has anything to do with it. i don't know if it's the same political significance to that or not. the main thing is the new chief of staff, whether he's interim or permanent, he is a guy who gets things done, avoids press interviews. >> i want to talk to you more about this. >> right. >> okay. let's talk -- well said. i think it was. it sounded nasty to me, though. clarence page, thank you, mr. chicago. thank you, alex, we'll have you back many times. up next, the u.s. government apologized today for -- they ought to apologize for this. this makes me feel bad as an american. i think all of us feel bad about this. 60 years ago the american medical researchers intentionally infected prisoners in guatemala and people in insane asylums with syphilis and gonorrhea so they could test penicillin. as a preventative. we're going to get to that in a moment about the apology and

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it's tragic and the united states by all means apologizes to all of those that were impacted by this. >> welcome back to "hardball." that's white house press secretary robert gibbs on the news that in the 1940s u.s. government researchers deliberately infected quatd malians with sexually transmitted diseases for a medical study. the president called the president of guatemala to express deep regret and extend an apology to all affected. robert bazell is nbc news's chief medical correspondent. did dispirits me. i love this country. when i hear that we've done things like at tuskegee, i guess you have to wonder about the mindset of people thinking poor people in a third world country. go inject them with gonorrhea and maybe pens krillin will

work. how does it fit into the context of medical research? >> human behavior in the society. you mentioned tuskegee. it went on for four decades until the press revealed it in 1972 on african-american man infected naturally but told they were treated and they weren't. this was on guatemala for two years until they ran out of money and stopped it. in both cases it's racism. it's thinking other people can be research subjects because they're lesser human beings than we are. it was racism in alabama in tuskegee and this was kinds of a medical imperialism and guatemala is because the surgeon general of the united states at the time is quoted in the paper of this his tore yanl found revealing saying we couldn't be doing this study in this country. so they knew that they were doing something wrong. they knew they were violating their hypocratic oath but thought it was all justified in the name of protecting people from sexually transmitted diseases who are more worthy than these poor guatemalans.

>> they were spreading -- when you get the real anecdotal information about it that they were spreading disease, had sex workers, prostitutes spreading gonorrhea and syphilis around. it seems like they weren't even concerned it was viral by the nature and it was going to keep spreading. it wasn't even a controlled experiment. >> it wasn't a controlled experiment. they wanted to find out if penicillin could not only treat it but you could be given prophylactically to stop the spread and they were trying to find out a bunch of other things. the point is when you read the details it's utterly gruesome. they grew the syphilis bacteria in a lab storm in staten island, flew it down to guatemala city and then put it into people in their skin, in their genitals and even into their spines to see what would happen when they then went on and either infected other people or just watched the natural course of the disease. it couldn't be much worse. that's why it's such big news even though it happened more

than 60 years ago. and that's why the administration today called on the institute of medicine, which is a prestigious group, to thoroughly study this and find out if there's anything else going on in the world right now that might be just as bad that we have to think about it. >> think about it. this is after mengelle, after the nazi experiments. we were the good guys winning that war and shutting that down, i don't know how the people were thinking. they weren't caring. when we return let me finish with something former president bill clinton said to me the other day. we showed it last night. i want to get into how he said how you reach voters in a difficult time to get them to think, not just react. right now, all over the country discover customers are getting five percent cashback bonus at restaurants. it pays to switch, it pays to discover.

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let me finish tonight with a thought i got over here from former president bill clinton. it's about the election coming up at home. it's about the effort by the republicans to turn this election into the complaint desk. simple, they say. if you don't like the current state of the economy, vote against the democrats. bill clinton says people should look at the november balloting with better street smarts. the voters should figure out which party, which candidates has the best ideas right now and the best track record in the past to eventually get the economy improved. look at what the democrats are trying to do, what they did under clinton back in the '90s in creating jobs and improving

incomes, those at the low end especially. look at the weak job the republicans did under george w. bush on both job creation and income levels. in other words, make a choice. that's the question on the ballot every two years for congress, every four years for president. who could you trust to do the job for you? which party has the record, the people and the brains and the heart to look out for people like you? if you vote for the democrats this time you're saying i think they were faced with a tough, even scary situation when they came into office last year. i think they did what smart economics says to do. if you vote tea party republican you must have believed it would be better to ride out the horror we saw in 2009. this is the choice that bill clinton thinks a thinking person should honestly confront this november and then walk in the voting booth and courageously act on it. it may lack the emotional kick kicking the political system in the chin but has a clear advantage of making a smart investment in the countr