looking for. >> wayne says i toss and turn wondering why the alarm show graphic says 5:30 when willie comes on at 5:29. >> we do come on the air at 5:29. impress thatd you noticed that. "morning joe" starts right now. is that now your position, republican party position that the minimum wage is unconstitutional? what is the minimum wage, michael? >> you really like the minimum wage, don't you? >> he was lying the me that he didn't have a job. he was actually unemployed? socialistic regulatory regime on the health care sector, do you wish she wasn't privy to classified information? when did that become a

republican idea? >> you're a funny man, lawrence. you really are. >> okay. and here we go. welcome to "morning joe" everyone. we're still in washington. and with us in washington -- >> come on! we know crazy larry put on a great performance last night. >> it was great. it was fabulous. >> actually michael looked a little crazy last night, the laughing gas. >> just last night? >> stop that. >> it was interesting. >> he was crazy larry. he has a future in this medium. >> "the last word" is off to a great start. >> i think wonderful larry might be a way to put it. >> he's the uncle that helps you gets through thanksgiving dinner. you're bored and like, i can't

believe i'm going to have to sit through this. there's one uncle that's a little off, a little crazy, and he's going to keep you laughing through the whole dinner. ain't that right, mr. buchanan. >> and then you're glad to get him out of the house. >> pat buchanan, chief washington correspondent norah o'donnell back with us. and managing editor of "fortune" magazine. >> mika had a great panel yesterday. i was blown away by the power in that room. we've got the women up there that help run the economy and mika. >> exactly. >> we were in the guy ghetto. >> a few of us, and i got called out. there are three men. >> sheila bair, fdic, fcc chair,

attorney general's office, and elizabeth warren near the white house. as they introduced, they said they hear me with my knucklehead sidekick. and then joe stood up and said "i'm here." >> a barnicle moment. >> christine barney assured me she could arrest him. >> the only one on the panel with arresting powers. she immediately called joe out and said, i'm coming after you. >> when andy ser remember puts on an event -- the president of the united states there. barack obama making a speech and the seal falls down. >> way to go. >> that was his carpenter. that was not a time warner carpenter. >> buchanan, did that ever happen in the nixon or reagan

white house where the seal falls off while the president is talking? >> no. they've had other incidents. >> oh, that's right. there were other incidents, very good. >> there's the president. it was a great event. >> i'm glad he had a good time. >> we'll find the piece of tape. >> the seal just collapsed. >> that wasn't symbolic, was it, andy? >> you've got to ask the president. >> we have great guests today at the washington bureau. >> is he going to be wearing the coat he bought, brzezinski. >> le came back from the far east wearing a strange jacket. >> it's awful. >> how did he get it through customs. >> you looked at that jacket and you know some horse at pimlico is freezing to death. >> that is the best line of all

time. >> we're hoping he's going to wear a dark jacket today. >> the sad thing is he loves it and very proud of it. it's a complete disconnect. i don't care where he got it. it's ugly. i wouldn't step on it in a puddle. >> willie geist is in new york. we'll say hi to him. >> hello, joe. your dad is high fashion. if you hold on to something long enough. in this case he's holding on from 1972. >> there's that. it hasn't come back yet. sheila bair is going to be on the news. this morning's "washington post" is reporting the taliban and karzai's afghan government have begun secret high level talks to negotiate an end to the war. this is the first time the two groups have talked since discussions in saudi arabia broke down more than a year ago.

this marks the first time that taliban representatives are fully authorized to speak for the afghan taliban organization based in pakistan. the meetings involve possible agreements that would put taliban figures in the afghan government and the withdrawal of u.s. and nato troops on an agreed-upon deadline. interesting. we can talk to some of our guests about that. a leaked e-mail conversation between sarah palin's husband todd and alaskan republican nominee joe miller revealing that both sides are clashing. miller pulled out a surprising victory over murkowski in august after receiving the high-profile endorsement of sarah palin. in an interview last month, miller declined to give an endorsement to palin when asked if she was qualified to be president. oh, dear. an alaskan political blog reports that todd palin sent an e-mail following that television

appearance. it said hold off on any letter for joe. sarah put her, expletive, on the line for joe and yet he can't answer a simple question. is sarah palin qualified to be president? i don't know if she is. joe, please explain how this endorsement stuff works. is it to be completely one-sided. sarah spent all morning working on a facebook post for joe. she won't use it, not now. put yourself in her shoes, joe, for one day. miller then reportedly forwarded that e-mail to people in his campaign. >> i'm sorry. who spends an entire morning working on a facebook post. >> is it kindergarten? >> that's a really good point actually. >> she spent all morning working on a -- it's 140 characters. >> it was a lot of work. >> just found this in my inbox. this is a response. note the date and complete miss construction of what i said. holy cow.

how long did that take to write? >> norah o'donnell, big fight in alaska. >> look, todd palin, one of the most underreported story, is the enforcer in many ways. he is -- whether it is myself or other organizations. he's the one who calls to complain when he feels his wife has been mistreated. >> i didn't know that. >> yes. in this particular instance, you really see they're angry that joe miller didn't offer this full-throated, yes, sarah palin is quoted to be president after they believe they stuck out their -- spent all this time working on a facebook. >> working all morning on a facebook post. that's time you never get back. it's a zero sum game. pat buchanan, please, weigh in. >> suggests sensitivity on the part of todd and sarah palin about this. but clearly, this fellow joe was asked a question and people made mistakes. all he should have said is she's

qualified for any post that she wants or something like that. it does suggest real sensitivity on the part of the former governor of alaska. >> it also suggests that maybe they are focused on running for president. >> this is more the husband of -- here is a guy we did everything for. he cuts us. so he's ticked off. he's a tough guy. so i think that's a natural reaction of the husband, but it does suggest sensitivity. >> does it suggest she's thinking about running. >> i've always thought she's considering running. this is all part of who sarah palin is. >> do you know how many people every day are telling her to? do you know how much kool-aid that is to drink every day? >> sarah, inc., she's making a fortune. >> the question is would she give that up to run for office? she's turned herself into a brand, making good money. her exposure is big. >> i don't think she has to give it up. she can run for president and make money at the same time. >> and the brand explodes for

president. newt gingrich was telling mitch daniels six months ago, run, it helps book sales. >> you don't have to win, right? i'm curious about the mutual endorsement game? when someone endorses you, you have to endorse them? >> you don't endorse them and say, gee, would you think sarah is qualified to be president? gee, i don't know about that. >> i can't quite spit that out. >> you would throw something out like, sure, she's as qualified as anyone around. >> even that's a qualified endorse. pat. >> it's not a big news story. >> i do think it is fair to say that sarah palin did make joe miller. nobody knew who joe miller was until sarah palin endorsed him. >> it's all about eve. he turns on her once he becomes big time. >> so let's ask, pat -- >> let me say this about miller. this sounds like an amateur making a statement out there. this wasn't considered. if he could have changed that, he would have. he made a bit of a gaff. >> doesn't that help him get the

murkowski votes though? >> no. if you deliberately cut sarah to get the murkowski votes? no, i don't think so at all. >> we shall see. gay and women's rights groups are demanding an apology from a republican south carolina governor jim demint after he referenced commence he made six years ago that homosexuals and some unmarried single marries should not be teaching in the state's public schools. according to the spartanburg herald journal, he talked about the backlash to those 2004 comments saying, quote, no one came to my defense, but everyone would come to me and whisper that i shouldn't back down. as to whether he stands by the comments, a spokesman for the senator says he believes hiring decisions at local schools are a local school board issue, not a federal issue. not backing down, right? >> i thought he -- >> my reading was that's him

backing off. >> i think it's just watering -- backing it off would be i didn't mean what i said, i'm absolutely wrong, what i said was wrong. >> he's backing off saying i'm not going to offer any advice on this. >> saying people are whispering me not to back down, but no one will public by be with me. >> he said it's up to the local school boards. i don't have a say in this. >> standing at the local school board. >> leaving it to a local school board on deciding whether to hire unmarried women. >> i'm saying he made a general statement -- i don't want to be misconstrued here. i'm not defending his statement. i don't get his statement to be really honest with you. what i am saying, because i've seen a lot of people on the blogs going crazy over this. if you want to be angry at jim demint, be angry at jim demint for the right reasons, what he said six months ago. if you're not an ideological

freak on the right or the left, any basic reading of this suggests he's saying, i said that six years ago, but my position now is it's none of my business. it's not a federal issue, up to local school boards. >> in explaining what he did in 2004 i answered as a dad with my heart and not as a senate candidate. i apologize for making the remark because it distract friday the debate. he says i apologize. >> that would be completely disavowing. >> he said he answered as a dad and with his heart. >> that would be having it both ways. >> exactly. >> that's just not backing down. that's not taking the remark back and saying i was wrong. >> i'm sorry you want to kick jim demint in the face. >> i'm not kicking him. >> you're not listening. >> i'm listening. >> yesterday we mad a discussion about justice ben nan, justice brennan the man was offended by women in the workplace. justice brennan the judge was the biggest champion of women in

the workplace. justice brennan the man despised abortion. justice brennan the justice was a champion in roe v. wade. if we can have a reasoned discussion about how somebody on the left can decide that, let's not kick a conservative for doing the same damn thing. >> i'm not kicking him. i'm saying he didn't say his statement was wrong. >> let's judge justice bran nan by the same standards. >> i am. >> justice brennan is a horrible human being. >> i didn't say that. >> they don't like the nazis marching, but they allow it to happen. i guess you're right, you cannot approve of something but understand legally it's the same. >> the same rules apply to bran nan as demint. >> my only point is let's get it ride. if we're going to talk about it, let's get it ride and hold people on the right to the same standards we hold people on the

left to. >> that's true. >> that's all i'm saying, norah. >> i'm with you. >> that's all you're saying. >> i'm not going to say anything else today. i promise. >> that's going to bum us out. you've got to say more stuff than that. >> look at him. >> that's it. >> you can't have a tv show. >> i think we were saying the same thing, but you're saying, i'm right. >> no, no. you know what? she goes to a women's thing for one day and comes back with all this empowerment. >> it's all right. you're brilliant. it's true what you just said. i'm taking sheila bair's advice. up next, an exclusive first look at the politico playbook. also will the obama 2012 ticket include joe biden? there's new speculation this morning. charlie crist coming under fire for an attack ad unleashed before today's big debate.

it's a story making front page news this morning. first here is bill karins with a check on the forecast. national hurricane center classified this little area of low pressure north of puerto rico as subtropical depression 17. it's kind of close to the bahamas. it's going to be moving away from land. no threat whatsoever. if it does get a name, it will be our o storm, becoming otto in the days ahead. no threat to any land areas whatsoever. let's talk about what is going to happen in boston, providence, cape cod, a lot of rain today. maybe as much as an inch of rain. a very gloomy wednesday for new england today. not going to be so bad further to the south. that's where we'll watch clearing going on from the d.c. area up to philly. can't rule out a chance of the shower for the phillies game late this afternoon, should be no problem whatsoever. the forecast for the rest of the country, all the great weather continues in the midwest to the southeast where the yankees will be taking on the twins, nice in minnesota later tonight. you're watching "morning joe"

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joe." looking over this ap article, demint said this in '04. he apologized later in '04, said i was saying it as a father, not as a legislator. he said this again on friday, then stepped back and talked about how it's a state issue, a local issue, not a federal issue. and his staff members are running away from it saying that

he's not going to do anything in congress and sort of slipping back to that position that he's just saying this is a personal opinion. but he stirred the stew back up this friday after saying it in '04 and then apologizing. >> and it came up just the other day? >> he brought it up. he brought it up again on friday. so he's stirred it up again. and now they're backing off again. i would suggest that he -- just take a position and stick with it. >> it would be good. >> it's confusing. does anybody at this table -- i'm not going to ask you buchanan. i will tell you this as a father with two young kids, i want the best teach ner the classroom. it want my kids to learn. i don't want purity tests for

baseball players or teachers. if they go in, they do their job, they teach my kids, they play by the rules, that's what matters. i'm not even looking at buchanan. go ahead. in college, one or two of my teachers were -- i was told to shut up. >> oh, my god, chris, don't say that. "san francisco chronicle" analysts say it's time for meg whitman to gone the offensive. a new poll shows the gubernatorial candidate down by seven points to jerry brown with four weeks to go. "new york times," new poll finds that even though latinos strongly back democrats in the congressional elections, only 51% of latinos registered said they would go to the polls in november compared to 70% of all registered voters. "usa today," is this the beginning of the end for yankee icon derek jeter?

the 36-year-old shortstop is having the worst season of his career, raising questions about his future in new york. when his contract expires at the ends of the year. >> let's see what happens in the play-offs. "the miami herald," flare-up on the eve of a key debate. charlie crist unleashed a new attack ad suggesting rubio would hurt seniors who receive social security. former governor jeb bush called the ad shameful. let's play the ad real quick. >> good lord. i want to see the ad. >> you got the ad, chris? charlie crist put this out. >> marco rubio retirement plan, he wants to raise the social security retirement age. that means you'll work harder and longer for your money. rubio wants to cut benefits, it's already tough enough to make ends meet. that's washington for you, balance the budget on the backs of seniors. charlie crist is against raising the retirement age, he'll protect social security because our seniors are earned it.

i'm charlie crist and i approve this message. >> pat, i remember watching that fox debate, and i was surprised when marco rubio said he supported raising the retirement age. i said, wow, in florida that's pretty courageous, something that i would support. but i said that's pretty courageous. >> it is. >> but it's also political dynamite. >> and crist put the ad out the day of the debate. it comes out the day of the debate. it will be clooerly the focus of the debate. just like yesterday we had linda mcmahon's ad on blumenthal, the vietnam thing, brought that back and put that right into the debate. i agree with you that marco rubio showed a lot of guts saying we've got to be open to some of these changes in social security. is it political dynamite? you bet it is in florida. >> he said he thought we needed to raise the retirement age. i don't think there's any choice. that being said, in florida,

that's a politically dangerous statement to make. >> in florida, that would be the hardest thing. >> but rage ous. >> absolutely. let's go to willie geist for the politico playbook. >> john harris is here with a look at the playbook. hey, john. >> good morning, willie. >> midterm election, keeping some democratic top dogs on their toes. which house chairman are you looking at that might be in trouble. >> rich cohen on our capitol hill staff has a good story this morning. some of the old bulls at risk of being newtered. this happened in 1994 where long-time chairman that were safe got washed out. there's a good chance it will happen again this year. we've got at least a half dozen chairmen who have seen their raises narrow to single digits. some of them new it, john sprat down in south carolina, he knew he was in trouble. recently people who are not accustomed to this, jim oberstar chairs the transportation

committee from a northern minnesota district. the duluth paper said he's in a three-point race up there and was not accustomed to this. >> john, how much trouble -- we had the picture up there. barney frank, how much trouble is he in? i know he called in bill clinton to campaign for him. i think some people will be surprised to see his name on the list. >> it is surprising. it's an indication that as we've known and talked about, this is not a normal year. it would be a huge shock if barney frank doesn't survive this scare. if this really ask not a wave, but a tsunami, you'll see people like barney frank get washed out. i think he's up in his race and expected to win. he's woken up and said, wait a minute, this could be a real race. >> still the favorite, but will have to fight for it. we'll check back with you later in the show. >> see you soon. new rumors surrounding president obama's 2012 ticket. will it include joe biden and who might replace him? our first look at lebron james and the newly despised

miami heat. how did they look in their first game? john is a ford and lincoln mercury service technician. very smart. we were just discussing the circumstances by which a person can find himself in four separate places at one time. i didn't really say that. but people come in here for tires, brakes, batteries and oil changes. so it's possible? yes. oh that's brilliant. buy with confidence. thanks to our low price tire guarantee. so, with everything you need in one convenient place why would you go to four separate places? now that's a good question. well, there you go.

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welcome back to "morning joe." a live look at washington, d.c. the sun not up yet. a quick look at the news. a connecticut man could now face the death penalty after being convicted yesterday of murdering a woman and her two daughters during a nightmare home invasion in 2007. prosecutors say steven hayes and another ex-con beat dr. william petit with a baseball bat and sexually assaulted and strangled his wife before setting his house on fire. both daughters died of smoke inhalation. dr. petit who was tied up in the basement managed to escape before the house became engulfed in flames. yesterday he thanked jurors for

their conviction. >> there's some relief, but my family is still gone. it doesn't bring them back. it doesn't bring back the home that we had, but certainly a guilty virkt is a much better sense of relief than guilty of -- a verdict of nonguilty. >> mika, i don't know a father and a husband -- i really don't know how a father and husband goes on after that. i have no idea. you actually sat with them at dinner -- >> yeah, a few months before that at the hartford medical association. i sat at their table. he's a renowned doctor, and their daughter had just been accepted to dartmouth and their younger daughter was a shining star. i remember marveling at them and

going home to my husband and saying this family was amazing. they are everything you would aspire to be as a family. and i just remember them standing out in my mind as a shining example of just a beautiful family. >> yeah. it's just something, norah you were talking about, too. it's one of the stories you turn away from. you don't want to read, it is so horrific. >> your absolute worst nightmare. moving on with news, in pakistan today suspected taliban gunmen have attacked nato tankers carrying fuel into afghanistan. this time at least a dozen oil tankers were torched and one driver was shot dead. it marks at least the sixth attack since a week ago when pakistan close add vital border crossing in afghanistan in refal asian for a nato helicopter strike. that closure left hundreds of tracks stranded . big news about the ipad -- >> andy's got one.

>> as do you. >> i've got one. i just tweeted something. i'm tweeting about jim demint. and then look, howard wolfson, joe scarborough has died and gone to heaven. liverpool agrees to sell to red socks owners. i have, by the way. the ipad has now become the most quickly adopted electronic device ever. people buying ipads faster than ever bought dvd players or other electronics when they first came back. so over dvds and other electronics. 3 million people bought ipads in the first 80 days of its release, selling over one million a month. one business analyst called it a runaway success of unprecedented proportion. i still haven't gotten my arms around it. >> that's what they said about willie's career and it just sort of died.

the only irritant is, again, sometimes the wi-fi is slow. and it takes a while to download. >> i have the verizon card. >> does that help you? >> verizon versus the at&t network. >> i can't figure this stuff out. >> andrea young, the co-lead director of apple yesterday. she said it was -- to be very clear, she didn't talk about apple computer's business at all, steve jobs. but she said it's like watching history, being a part of it. >> that little verizon card. this is your own wi-fi. people that watch this show, especially from 6:00 to 7:00, they're on their treadmills and run america. they have all this stuff. you take it wherever you want to

go. >> like a pacemaker. >> and five different things can work off that one wi-fi. >> willie, do sports. let's do sports. baseball play-offs begin today. it starts this afternoon when the rangers take on the rays, tampa bay at st. petersburg, 1:30 this afternoon. national league gets started with treads and phillies at 5:00. tonight, the yankees visit the twins. yankees playing, of course, as the wildcard. in basketball last night the much anticipated preseason debut of lebron james with the miami heat. there he is. playing the pistons in an utterly meaningless preseason games. he finished the night with 18 points. this is not good for miami fans. dwyane wade pulling up lame in the first preseason game. he left with a pulled hamstring and didn't come back. the big three of bosh, wade and

lebron played together for only three minutes. lebron looking like his old cleveland self with the spin, two-handed duck. he and bosh scored a combined 38 points. >> joe, you'll have to put this in context for me. this is soccer news. football. the board for liverpool agreed to sell the debt riddled clubs to the owners of the boston red sox on wednesday. the red sox offered to pay $477 million for the club with debts of $453 million that must be repaid by next week. current co-owners tom hicks and george heal lig, junior said they would resist the bid and a separate bid from asia because both dramatically undervalue the 18-time english champions. joe? >> willie, that is unfortunately -- ugly american

fits. those two gentlemen have run it into the ground. loofr pool is english's version of the yankees, tied for the most titles. the most store read history. hicks owned the rangers. gillette owned montreal. they ran them both into the ground. i guess texas went -- i don't know if they went bankrupt or what happened. the rangers, they got ran out of texas. so liverpool is literally dieing as a club, and these americans won't let it go because they know they can't get their money back. it's a terrible, terrible situation. it looks like the red sox may be riding into the rescue which is great news for liverpool which is one of the biggest brands in the world. i know a lot of americans may not know it. liverpool football, one of the biggest brands in the world. they've got the best sports organization i've ever seen. the red sox organization -- willie, you know, it's incredible, those guys. >> exciting. >> what really helps is unlike

gillette and hicks, they're big liverpool fans. i'm a liverpool fan because of a couple guys up there. they love it. it could be very exciting. >> your two favorite teams coming together, joe. >> favorite teams coming together. if only nick sab ban can get in the middle of it, it's a perfect storm. you'll never walk alone. >> never walk alone. that's the slogan for liverpool. >> this is great news for liverpool. joe, they don't do soccer in tuscaloosa. you know better than that. >> they do now. >> stop it. those are real men down there. in other soccer news, check this out. you'll like this, joe. this is political friendly match. bolivia's president, ivo mir real las, he got pushed and retaliated by kneeing an opponent in the groin. this is the president of bolivia. >> the president of bolivia.

>> the president of the nation -- this is like barack obama kneeing someone in the groin. this was like a friendly match between two political parties, having a little fun playing some football. he got pushed, didn't like it. and just jacked the guy right there. >> okay. not very presidential of you, sir. up next, mika's must-read opinion pages are coming up. why vice president joe biden says he wants to strangle some republicans. that story plus more with pat, norah and andy serwer when "morning joe" comes back. when i was 16, i was hired as a cashier at the walmart in marinette, wisconsin. that first job launched my career. since i've been with the company, i've been promoted ten times over the span of 11 years.

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if obama seeks re-election as people expect him to, he could be in trouble like he is now and need the support of the groups that hillary clinton did very well with in the primary elections, bring her on the ticket and make biden secretary of state, they would all go out there and be delighted and happy. it might help obama politically. >> might it? bob woodward on "andrea mitchell" yesterday. yesterday at a fund-raiser joe biden was telling the crowd that democrats know how to balance the budget when he said, if i hear one more republican tell me about balancing the budget, i am going to strangle them -- he said to the press, that's a

figure of speech. >> as oppose to the republicans who also hope it's a figure of speech, not literal. >> i think hillary in 2012 makes a lot of sense. i think joe biden would probably love to be secretary of state. >> there have been a number of op eds saying switch. >> joe is going to be hit with this constantly. i don't think it's going to please him. obama is at 29% in west virginia. hilla hillary beat him by 41 points. she complements him in terms of the kind of constituency she brings, pennsylvania primary and all that. it's going to be a tough two years for joe biden. >> she certainly would bring in some, whether you talk about -- you can go through all the primaries at the end, whether kentucky or west virginia or ohio or texas. pennsylvania, hillary is strong -- >> hillary got a lot of reagan democrats coming in. >> she sure did. those are the guys that obama has lost, are the hillary

democrats. >> let's do our must-read op ed from "the washington post." katrina van den hoovl. she says ignore the poll centers and champion the progressives. she says i hope the president learns the right lesson, provide a clarion voice to americans about the need for bold progressive reform and show your own supporters a fighting spirit to push for it. rouse the progressive majority not by complaining about its ingratitude but by championing its cause, or as they say in texas, dance with those that brung you. you'll find others want to join the party. >> let me just say about my good friend katrina that republicans and conservatives would absolutely love if the president followed that advice. please, mr. president, try to take the country further left because all you will do is elect more republicans. >> no question. >> if i were barack obama, i

would be so frustrated at progressives like katrina. here this guy has moved further left -- moved further left than bill clinton in '93 and '94, moved further left than so many people on domestic issues. it's still not enough. katrina is saying go even further left? >> he should ignore them. what are they going to do? are they going to stay home? >> look at obama-care, the most progressive thing obama did. joe manchin, 66% approval, looks like he's going to lose. he's called for repeal of it. not a single moderate democrat is campaigning on obama-care because it's not a winner. >> pat, they're not listening, though. robert gibbs was right when he was talking about the professional left and talking about all the naysayers on the far left. there is no grasp of reality. every party has to deal with this. republicans have to deal with right wing extremists. this white house has to deal with left wing extremists.

not calling katrina left wing. but he's gone as far left as he can go and he's lost the middle of america because of it. >> it is difficult to campaign certainly in a midterm and in the midst of a recession. or trecession is technically over, but a very weak economy. that's the argument the white house would make. i think for this election which is now less than a month away, what the president is going to be doing is trying to fire up the liberal base. energize young voters, african-american voters, hispanic voters. that's why we see the first lady hitting the road, raising money in these key house and senate districts. they know probably independents are out of reach. >> liberals are 20% of the country, moderates and conservatives are now 80%. if you put independents and conservatives, you're talking about 80% of the country. >> it's a midterm election. >> by the way, pat, those

numbers have been consistent for the past decade. self-identified conservatives around 40%. self-identified moderates -- >> there's three groups. >> liberals have always been around 20%. 20% of america agrees with katrina and the professional left. that's just the reality. so ideologically the numbers don't add up. >> why play there, right? >> you certainly do what you believe in but understand that if you go there, you've got 20% of the country following you and 80% not. >> all right. still ahead, andrea mitchell will be here. also "the washington post's" ezra klein who explains how the democrats could lose 86 seats in the midterm. >> oh, come on. >> good lord. but first willie, what do you have? >> the kind of moment we'll miss when he goes off the air in a couple months. larry king serenaded in bizarre fashion by the legendary liza minnelli. out won't want to miss this clip next.

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>> i'm just excited. i miss him. what? >> i think it's a good way to kick start the segment. let's start with "dancing with the stars" if we could. could we? >> yes, please. >> last night it came down to the final two. bristol palin on the left, margaret cho on the right. who would be eliminated? oh, my gosh. we get another week of bristol. margaret cho was knocked out. bristol palin came within an inch of her dancing life but lives to see another day. margaret cho, sad to say, is headed home. earlier in the day on "the view," talking about margaret cho, a little mixup on the part of barbara walters. >> margaret, margaret. >> she also, because she is openly gay -- >> she's married to a man.

>> she's not openly gay anymore. >> maybe she's bi. >> i love this story. >> she's been married for years in the past. >> she's dabbled. >> barbara lobbing that out there that margaret cho is gay. nope. she's married. >> can i ask you this, as an openly gay man does that offend you when someone makes an assumption like that. >> i'm completely comfortable with it. i would google it before i mentioned something like that. >> are you sad about the end coming here for the larry king show? >> of course i'm sad. of course i am. >> we're going to miss moments like larry -- >> i can't wait. >> larry and liza. liza, take it away, doll face. >> can i sing you a little bit? >> go ahead.

>>. ♪ i never kissed a man before. isn't that a shame ♪ ♪ i never kissed a man before i knew his name ♪ ♪ i never had a taste for wine . isn't that a sin ♪ i never had a taste for wine for wine can't compare with gin ♪ >> would you marry again? >> are you nuts? >> yeah, i am. >> no, i would not. >> well, do you date? you're a single, attractive, talented woman. >> yes. thank you. sure i go out with my friends and i go out with gentlemen. >> they'll never keep you down, right? you? are you kidding? >> only a couple more months of that left guys.

>> that was so awful on so many levels. oh, my god! i just threw up a little bit in my mouth. i just say that as an expression. wow. >> this time next year, where else will you be able to catch up on liza minnelli's love light. >> i think he might have been trying to pick up on her like he did on lady gaga a few months ago. it is stunning. ezra klein, andrea mitchell next.

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let's talk about us, and i'm talking about the state of women and the need for more of them in and running the financial world. we bring a lot to the table, but we're not at the table yet, are we? >> i think you just need to speak up. and i think -- >> haven't we tried that and then three guys down had the same idea and they say howard's idea is great. >> the good news is the good idea prevails. secondly, you'd like to get credited if it was your idea. you would like to come around and say, yes, that is what i just said. hopefully there's another lady at the table that will say, hey, isn't that what sheila just said? that's a good idea of how we can reenforce each other. >> welcome back to "morning joe." i took. ♪ and i felt badly that i was part of the oppressed gender.

>> you were oppressed. you were treated terribly. >> that not only happens at these conferences, it happens here. i come around like fred flintd sto flintstone. we just got an e-mail. >> from new jersey. he says, joe, when you make a point as you did with demichbt and mika doesn't agree, grow some spine and don't back down after the break. you're the star and the people that watch the show. don't back town. >> mika is the star here. >> it is called "morning joe." >> i'm scared of her. you've seen this. it's like an old "s&l" skit. during the break ronald reagan starts yelling and mika starts pointing and says, bu chan nah, next time i ask you a question, you make a response. >> that panel was part of the

women's summit. sheila bair will be joining us on the show today. but it was really -- the magazine, this latest issue with oprah on the front, a great article on the 50 most powerful women. >> let's get some clarification. we talked about this last hour, kind of knocked it around a little bit. this jim demint statement. so demint, we were having this debate back and forth. it's very convoluted. >> we weren't watching, i was trying to figure out -- >> what happened is demint makes a statement in '04 that people who are gay or promiscuous shouldn't be allowed in class rooms. then he apologizes in '04. i thought someone was dredging it back up based on our discussion and what was in the script. but no, he said it again this past friday. it sounded like he was saying it again. and then his staff seems to be backing down again saying oh, no, no, no, he believes it's a local issue.

what's the story? have you guys been following this at all? >> i haven't been following it until i tried to follow what you and mika were going through this morning. >> clearly mika straightened you out during the commercial break. >> she did. i got scared. >> i thought you brought up a very good point about having an opinion of your own that applies to yourself and your family and then having a job in which you have to apply that opinion. >> the justice brennan standard. >> i think jim demint is somewhere in there. >> i will say, if you make the statement in '04 and then apologize for it, you're held to a higher standard in '10. if you bring it up again, it's as if you were intentionally trying to provoke. and then, and then having your staff apologize again? we' all make mistakes. to do it again seems like it's intentional to stir up the base before an election. >> it does seem like it. but then to back down after you've made it again seems like you weren't thinking if you made it again if that's what you're

prepared to do. >> you've been a staff guy over at the white house and other places. isn't this a case where the staff said oh, no, there he goes again, let's get him -- let's back down for him. it sounds like he's being managed. >> it sounds like a deeply held belief. >> a recurring belief. >> i think he keeps bringing it up, not because he thinks it's going to politically help him. ever reonce in a while someone catches him with a question from the right angle and he says, oh, yeah, about teaching -- off to the races and somewhere a staff member is like, oh, no. >> actually, if you listen to most people, they would say politically -- unlike '04 where republicans e ploited that, it doesn't sound like the message this year. this year the message is the economy. i'm sure his staff members are saying, gosh, stay on jobs. >> if i was a staff member, i don't think i'd go out and clarify what ronald reagan or richard nixon said frankly. >> good point. >> leave somebody else to do

that. >> what are we looking at today? >> our top story is in this morning's "washington post" which is reporting that the taliban and karzai's afghan government have begun secret high-level talks to negotiate an end to the war. this is the first time the two groups have talked since discussions in saudi arabia broke down more than a year ago. sources say these negotiations are different since this marks the first time that taliban representatives are fully authorized to speak for the afghan taliban organization based in pakistan. the meetings involve possible agreements that would put taliban figures in the afghan government and the withdrawal of u.s. and natd toe troops for an agreed-upon deadline, something to watch for sure, andrea. >> general petraeus has said, they have all said, if there are taliban who accept the constitutional precepts, rights of women, human rights, who are willing to negotiate, that this is a path out of this miserable war. my word miserable, not the general's word.

they clearly are looking for an exit strategy. it is offensive to a lot of people who have sacrificed to defeat the taliban. we have viewed them as the enemy. >> differentiated between certain taliban and mullah omar. this is apparently mullah omar, the guy we ran out of kabul. >> the question is reconciliation. if mullah omar is -- this is going to be a hard sell to a lot of americans. if mullah omar is willing to accept what we have agreed is the constitution of afghanistan, who are we to say we're going to keep fighting because they're not ready to concede defet. >> this is what we did in iraq. the same iraqis and sunnis killing americans in '03, '04, '05 and '06 became our allies in '07 and beyond. >> this is how we know his name. the anbar awakening was a

pragmatic decision. the way you get fewer americans to die is get reconciliation in the country. it worked. we believe it worked. when obama points at petraeus, he's a guy who believes you have to finish the war. the way you finish the war is not that cow kill all the other side, but get the other side to stop killing the side you like. >> especially in afghanistan. it is an unachievable task whether you call the group the taliban or somebody else. >> if we're willing to have mullah omar come back and compete for power and even take power, what are those americans dieing for? >> that's the question that's got to be asked. >> what they're going to have to figure out is hamid karzai is certainly not negotiating from strength. he is, if anything, from bob woodward's book we know, on his meds, off his meds, according to ambassador and former general eikenberry, we think according to woodward's reporting he is

diagnosed as an unbalanced person, let's just say, medically. >> it's a far different thing trying to rebuild afghanistan in 2010 and beyond than it was in 2001 going in and going after mullah omar and destroying the sanctuary of osama bin laden where al qaeda's epicenter in 2001 and 2002 was in afghanistan. now we hear from the cia director there may be 50 members of al qaeda in afghanistan. it is a radically different situation than it was in '01. >> i agree 100%. >> this sounds horrible but if mull la omar will share power to help us bring troops home and stop spending $2 billion a week and understands if he becomes a safe haven for international terror again, we can go in and try to kill him again, i think that's a peace we can make. >> i'd gladly accept a deal like that because i don't think we should be fighting this war right now. if mullah omar comes back, all

these women schools -- that's the who is the hard line taliban who had this regime who we said just as intolerable, reactionary, 13th century and all that. that's acceptable, get the mary karns out of there. >> that's something we can't paper over, the fact that when we leave, we understand there are going to be very terrible things happening, especially to women. >> the question would be are they willing to accept women. women are in the government now, ministers, cabinet ministers. they have to come up with a peace agreement where they would accept the constitution of afghanistan which extends rights to women and others. >> this gets to a larger point, too, which is that we went in and because we had the gun and need to build support for going in, we enlarged the scope of the war. in 1999 we weren't hearing calls to go into afghanistan. the situation was intolerable. it was after we were attacked. the part we couldn't really do, maybe we could make gains on it. the part we couldn't do is

remake societies. we're now seeing in the end game, no matter how it happens, even if it comes out pretty good for us at the end of the day, still, when we leave there, when we walk out of there, it is not going to fulfill all the rhetorical objectives. >> go back and look at what afghanistan was culturally. forget about international terror. in '99, 2000 remember treligiou shrines being defaced? that's going to happen again. horrors are happening in africa and across the globe. we don't have the ability to make the world a perfect place. >> i agree. what it's going to mean. if mullah omar comes back, it means for at least about eight years from 2002, after we took it down, americans died in considerable numbers. we wasted enormous amounts of money and we lost. it was in vein because the

people we tloour out came back. >> if afghanistan is no longer the epicenter -- we did not lose. our objective going in was to stop it from being a safe haven. if you want to look at what happened from 2003 forward, 2004 forward and criticize it, i think that's very legitimate. >> i don't think i'd agree in '02 we finished the objective. there was a need to build up some level of civil society to make sure it didn't revert. the interesting question is does it revert? are we going to be confident when we leave there, the things we believe we have done will stick. >> we just won't know. >> when these guys come back in, boom. these are serious people. >> the real challenge could be next door, pakistan. >> exactly. let's move on ezra. your dad is coming in. we'll talk to him and i'll be quiet as i am with you during

breaks. ezra, i read that republicans said we may not take over the majority. i read it and laughed. then i hear you saying, but -- >> i'm not saying. >> democrats may lose 86 seats. >> here is what i'm saying, a gallup poll came out yesterday. if you ask registered voters who they'll vote for, republicans 46-43. manageable for democrats. now gallup creates a likely voter poll, the people they think will turn out. those are older folks, whiter folks, more conservative in this election n. a high turnout election, republicans win by 13 points. in a low turnout likely voter election they win by 18. nate silver ran numbers and said if you see an 18-point win, i would say more like 40 to 50. the key fact about this election is it isn't just voter preference. it's who comes to the polls.

democratic losses if they're large, it's largely going to be not because the country's 58-42 republican. it's going to be because the people who turned out were 58-42 republican. >> so how can it be that a party with a 25% approval rating picks up 50 seats? it just is stunning to me. >> i can't figure it out. you know democrats wish they lived in australia or brazil foe day where everybody sort of has to vote. it is an interesting illustration of the fact there are two equally important jobs in an american election. one is getting people to like you and the other is getting them to act on the preference. that's where dem rats are falling down right now. >> that's why you see president obama going to madison, to university of wisconsin and trying to energize exactly the young voters who to a certain extent, not as much as was advertised were obama voteers but now are not motivated to come out. >> you're talking about an enormously moralized democratic

base. >> 25 seats in swing districts that they never had any thought of winning. those are the one that is are a given. >> let's put this in perspective because we haven't done this for a while. even if barack obama were at 53%, 54%, democrats won big in '06, in '08. the tide came in. democrats are holding seats they have no right ideologically to hold. they would have lost seats anyway. add on top of that in every off-year election, voters are older and whiter. that's a reality. that would move it. i think even in the best-case scenario with barack obama at a 55% approval rating, they'd probably lose 15 seats, 20 seats. you add 15% real unemployment to it -- >> i think they could have lost 30 seats. >> even if a good environment. >> after friday's jobs number, that will be the last big jobs number.

>> ezra, what do you think, quick prediction? >> 50. >> you think 50? >> yes. >> andrea? >> i think it's too early to predict. it's volatile. >> i think it will not go to 50. >> i actually think 35 right now only because republicans lost so many special elections that they should have won that, if you can't handle one race on one day, how do you handle 435 all at once? >> then they've got michael steele, though. he'll save them. minimum wage. >> ezra klein, thank you so much. still ahead, doctors brzezinski and dee dee myers and fdic chairwoman chesheila bair. we're watching the storms that playing new england with cloudy and goom many weather all week. it will exit today. one more day of this. then we'll see a great forecast

into the weekend. in boston, you'll get wet this morning. heavy rain is sliding up into providence from the south. all of eastern new england is getting drenched. showers over to hartford. this does not extend down to d.c., philly and new york. those areas so far so good. the further south you are, the better. shourpry weather will continue from pittsburgh, areas of west virginia including buffalo, too. the forecast for today, there will be a shower or two, not a lot of heavy rain from new york to philadelphia. phillies game late this afternoon will be fine. forecast for the rest of the country, a fantastic weather pattern from the southern plains through texas. looking great in florida and also minneapolis looks really nice. as far as the forecast, it will dramatically improve. look how nice it gets around new york city friday right into the upcoming weekend. you're watching "morning joe" on this wednesday, brewed by starbucks. wall street is getting back on its feet.

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good news t. woman running for senator down in delaware is telling people she's not a witch. remember early on, she was saying she's a witch. take a look. you'll feel better. watch this. >> i'm not a witch. i'm nothing you've heard. i'm you. none of us are perfect. wait a minute. what? >> man -- >> hello. hey. we're here. we're here. >> we don't want to interrupt. >> we're trading our sources.

this is good stuff. this is what we do. >> we'll never be a part of it. >> you're in our house. >> it's "morning chuck." >> "morning andrea." >> "morning upchuck." >> great jokes. >> you hate everybody from new york or just me? i understand that. >> i can't believe you consider yourself a new yorker. you're not going to be able to walk the streets of pensacola. this is embarrassing, joe. >> how are you? >> how are you? >> good to see you. >> boys will be boys. >> we've completely lost control. >> are you guys done? >> let's segue a little bit. >> chuck todd. >> segue right off a cliff. >> meanwhile, another bad joke.

so we had ezra klein coming in talking about gallup. you get the joke. >> that's the on-the-way-homer. >> a mika thing, ten minutes later. >> ezra klein is quoting gallup, if there's not a big turnout, as many as 86 seats could swing. that's not going to happen. the numbers are looking pretty bad. >> if the gallup numbers are right, our pollsters said like 120 seats. >> that's not going to happen. >> i think it's just a little bit off. >> what do you think? >> when you look at the floor and the ceiling. when you talk to the folks we talked to, best-case scenario, a perfect night would be 60, 65. >> if the election were held today, 40, 45?

>> but the realistic is they're sitting here. democrats know they're dealing with about 30 losses now. if they had one, and they don't have one of these, but if they had a kill list, they would have 25 to 30 seats on it right now. >> they know are gone. >> 25 to 30 are gone. you can figure them out. they're the ones that frankly they were the extra seats they got in '08. the question is it's the next 30. what happens in the next 30? can democrats save 15 of them? can they save 20 of them? obviously you mess around with the next 30. don't forget -- first of all, we actually have a good example of how something can completely change the game in an election. it happened in california a week ago. this thing was like this. she was going to carry the whole ticket. right now -- they had to put out their own polling showing we're only down two. this is the whitman campaign. >> after $120 million.

>> this is what's happening. what's the fear there? the hispanic support for her will collapse? not only is jerry brown in better shape. remember, she's the entire ticket. this means fiorina can't win. >> box ser doier is doing well. >> this could cost republicans a house seat or even two. so here is a game-change moment that completely turns upside down. >> you never know. it's fascinating what's going on in the west coast, trending democratic. i can't believe russ feingold is losing by seven percentage points. rob portman, the weakest, probably the one they could pick off the most because of his bush administration ties, he's up by double digits in some polls. >> ohio has been really, really good for republicans. in exact, what you're seeing here is the normal tightening, chuck will tell you, that you

see in october. the house members are back home, starting the campaign and put money into the races. you have other game changers like "i am not a witch. are you?" >> how is this a game changer? she was down 20 points. this is where "saturday night live," you think, do you think she'll pull off the mask and it's been a gag the whole time. bill maher set this up? >> it could change at the last second. it really could. the reason why i hear these 85 projections or 60 projections, i keep going back to the fact that the republican party is sitting at 25% approval rating. and if you're ever going to have buyers' remorse before you actually buy the product, i think that's when you have it. i think a lot of americans are going to sit and look at the ballot and say do i really want

to put them back in power. >> sure. our poll stefrs have told us the mood is terrible in this country. it's going to be probably a republican wave. the question is how big it is. we have all these debates that are happening. we have the florida debate tonight. what happens in that debate with rubio and crist and meek? california, the story in california, meg whitman is now $140 million into it, and not her aide -- >> behind. >> now her nanny is coming out and saying she was treated terribly. it's not just the maid. now the nanny is coming out. this is a problem that tends to playing women in politics, but it's damaging, damaging in a stet where she needs hispanic voters. these issues can change things at the last minute. >> you're a miami guy. i'm a florida guy. i've seen races turn. >> sure. >> jeb bush would have been president of the united states in 2000 if lawton chiles hadn't run some really sleazy ads on

social security. that's why lawton won. that's why jeb lost and why george w. became president. a long story. charlie crist is now doing it to marco rubio except he's using words from a debate. that works in florida, doesn't it? >> it can work. i think what's going to happen in florida, there's already chatter behind the scenes. there's a bunch of crist supporters desperate for meek to get out of the race because at this point they can't win. in this three-way race, it's over. rubio has 45 in the bank. the question then is -- meek is going why do i need to get out for charlie crist? don't be surprised over the next week if you start hearing more chatter, more pressure applied to one or the other, depending on which one would do better. >> does the white house make a deal with meek, get out of the race and we help? >> no. they tried, they did -- there was attempts very early on before charlie crist talking

about finding another senate candidate. maybe they could have gotten meek on the alex sink ticket. that was over a year ago. >> that social security issue, bill clinton drove paul song grass out of the race in '92. >> three-way races. if democrats hold the race, the explanation will be they will win a dozen or more seats with less than 50% because libertarian candidates right now are polling over five points in a lot of races. it's something some republicans are nervous about that, if they don't trail off. don't forget you just said they hate both parties. there is a chunk of voters out there, if they vote third party the democratic base is more loyal at this point. it could be the difference. >> chuck todd, thank you very much. we'll see you on "the daily rundown" right after "morning joe." have you worked out your -- >> it starts at 9:00. it always does.

>> we're bringing more women to the table. up next former white house press secretary dee dee myers. we'll be right back. [ animals calling ] ♪ [ pop ] [ man ] ♪ well, we get along ♪ yeah, we really do - ♪ and there's nothing wrong - [ bird squawks ] ♪ with what i feel for you ♪ i could hang around till the leaves are brown and the summer's gone ♪ [ announcer ] when you're not worried about potential dangers, the world can be a far less threatening place. take the scary out of life with travelers insurance... and see the world in a different light.

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is that now your position, republican party position that the minimum wage is unconstitutional? what is the minimum wage, michael? >> you really like the minimum wage, don't you? >> he was lying to me that he didn't have a job, he was actually unemployed? >> social listic regulatory regime on the health care sector. do you wish she wasn't privy to classified information? >> when did that become a republican idea? >> you're a funny man, lawrence. you really are. >> you know, i was trying to think of what michael steele's response to lawrence o'donnell on "the last word" last night, very much like hillary clinton during the campaign when she would just laugh off questions.

>> joining us now former white house press secretary dee dee myers. did you get my drift when i was looking at michael steele. >> this is my biased opinion. i thought hillary was laughing off questions he didn't want to answer and he seemed to be laughing off questions he didn't have an answer for. the laughter makes you so uncomfortable. lawrence has a gift for making his guests really uncomfortable and people watching. >> intense questioning, great television. >> dee dee myers with us. bob woodward talked about this on andrea's show yesterday. i read about this several times now in opinion pieces about the switcheroo, biden and hillary clinton, biden going to secretary of state, clinton becoming vice president in the next campaign. does that make sense? >> you know, totally in the abstract, hillary clinton as a vice presidential candidate, of course it makes sense. she's become tremendously

popular. both clintons have never become more popular. she has a huge base in the democratic party. now among independents and even moderate republicans look at her and say, wow, she's done a great job. doesn't it make more sense to put her at defense and keep biden at vp. >> there's a lot written about bob gates. the guy just wants to go home. before you talk about hillary, let's hear bob woodward making this case on andrea's show yesterday. take a look. >> if obama seeks re-election as people expect him to, he could be in trouble like he is now and need the support of the groups that hillary clinton did very well with in the primary elections, bring her on the ticket and make biden secretary of state. they would all go out there and be delighted and happy, and it might help obama politically. >> okay.

argument that woodward makes is that it could help politically. >> on paper, obviously hillary clinton would bring the hillary democrats in the states where she creamed obama. brings those back. they're the folks that left. joe biden, all the experience as chairman of foreign relations. the fly in the ointment is joe. does joe want to go? he's vice president of the united states, a heartbeat away. that is a tremendous honor. to ask him, hey, joe, would you mind going over there to secretary of state because we want hillary clinton in the job of vice president, i think would be a putdown. >> does hillary want to go? >> oh, don't worry about that. >> if you're hillary clinton, would you rather be secretary of defense or vice president? >> secretary of defense would be terrible. we just talked about this horrendous situation in afghanistan. it's not pretty. pakistan is not pretty. >> but you have your own

portfolio. you're not if second banana to the president of the united states. >> the first female vice president in united states and first in line to be president of the united states. >> there are a lot of people out there who studied women and the next time we had a woman who could possibly be a presidential candidate and win the presidency. a lot think if hillary clinton did not run in 2016 which is a while from now, we still don't have yet that sort of stable female candidate that could run for president. there's lots still out there running for governor. nikki haley in south carolina, meg whitman. a lot of things that could change between now and then. clearly hillary clinton is still the most qualified person out there to be female president of the united states. where this discussion is coming from, does hillary run against obama in 2012? does hillary get added to the ticket. there's a desire among people who want to see a woman president and realize hillary is the midwest qualified woman out

there. i'm saying that in terms of her resume as a potential woman president. >> dee dee, your insight. how would you characterize what you think is going on inside the white house right now. there is a personnel reset happening. natural a couple years in, especially when times are economically tough. could you see more changes coming? we're seeing the economic team turnover. what about robert gibbs? did you talk about that recently? >> i justhave read -- i have not talked to robert. i don't know what his thinking is. we've read the reporting that he no longer wants to serve as press secretary. it's a grueling job, particularly in this environment of 24-7 media. >> dealing with the press isn't easy? >> i know. some people don't understand. >> let me ask you again. did you tweet about it? >> yes, i did. >> you didn't talk about it. you tweeted about it. >> i said if robert gibbs moves on, there's been a clot of

chatter about him running the dnc which would put a high-profile obama person in a important job for the 2012 reelect and the congressional elections as well. there's certainly a lot of good candidates including bill burton, robert's dep any, jay carney who has been talked about as well. certainly somebody could step into that job. it's a great job, a grueling job, but a great job. >> we'll continue the conversation in just a moment. looking ahead to tomorrow, former dnc chairman howard dean and the director of "waiting for superman," davis guggenheim. banks should prepare for higher interest rates. chairman of the fdic sheila bair next on "morning joe." receiving the bronze star, that was definitely one of my proudest moments. i graduated from west point, then i did a tour of duty in iraq. when i was transitioning from active duty, i went to a military officer hiring conference. it was kind of like speed dating.

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what i hope to do is give literally millions of american families better tools to be able to tell what the financial products that they deal with cost, what the risks are associated with them and to be able to compare one product to another. it should be simple. i'm hoping to be finished up within a couple months. >> okay. we'll see how she looks in a year. elizabeth warren yesterday at "fortune's" 50 most powerful women summit, very hopeful she can make a difference. we hope so, too. nbc news has learned exclusively that the federal trade commission is taking action against a company it says took millions of dollars from consumers promising to help them out of tax debt but never doing anything about it. nbc's kevin tibbles has more. >> if you owe over $15,000 in taxes. >> you've probably heard the pitch. >> this is your one-second

chance. use it well. >> reporter: ads promising to help people climb out from under tax debt. >> american tax relief got them to accept a fraction of what we owed. >> reporter: tim fuller ton was desperate when he heard the ad. >> we can reduce your tx debt by up to 90%. >> and you said whoa. >> sounds like a plan. >> reporter: turns out fullerton wasn't the only one. some 20,000 people paid american tax relief fees totaling as much as $100 million. the problem is they didn't deliver. >> because of the downturn in the economy scam artists are taking the last dollar out of pem's pocket. >> reporter: today the federal trade commission announced a judge has shut american tax relief down. >> plainly a couple preying on the most vulnerable, people deeply in debt. >> reporter: at first tim said he didn't tell his wife. >> it's a guy thing, just wanted to fix it. >> reporter: he sent them

$2,750. nothing happened. then he fessed up to darlene who happens to be an accountant. >> i was on a one-woman crusade to take them down. >> reporter: she wasn't alone. they cashed the checks, but never even approached the irs. company directors lived large in a beverly hills mansion and drove luxury cars. >> i was very, very angry with american tax relief. >> reporter: the fullertons have gotten half their money back after protesting and have worked out their own arrangements to repay the irs. >> it comes down to the old phrase, if something sounds too good to be true -- >> it is too good to be true. >> that is for sure. that story by kevin tibbles. we have the chairwoman of the fdic, sheila bair, next on "morning joe." tdd# 1-800-345-2550 what if every atm was free? tdd# 1-800-345-2550 no more $2, $3 fees.

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we certainly shouldn't cut the taxes -- raise taxes on anybody except the very rich. i think we should raise taxes on the very rich and cut taxes from the middle class. we have to get money from somebody. are we going to get more money from the person who served you lunch today or from me? i think we should get it from me. all right, welcome back to "morning joe," joining us now on the set along with pat buchanan

and dee dee myers, the chairwoman of the fdic, sheila bear. it was nice to be on the panel yesterday with the women who run the economy. it feels quite something. one of the questions i asked you is how do we move forward and prevent another economic or financial disaster if we don't have systems in place to end "too big to fail" or to end it. you said we do have tools to end it and we're serious about implementing those tools. what are they? >> basically, the procedure has been there for a long time for insurance banks. when an institution starts to fail, it's put in receivership process for large institutions. we have the ability to set up a bridge bag, transfer the good assets and provide temporary funding, liquidity support to keep the franchise operational. so it's worked well for banks. we think it can work well for nonbank financial institutions where the tools were lacking in this crisis. the statute is very clear, the

companion piece to authorizing this resolution process for nonbank financial entities. the congressman said no more assistance to open institutions, period. we think that's a good thing. we supported it, we pushed it. if the institution is in trouble it should fail and shareholders and unsecured creditors will have to take the loss. >> there are failures. 129 u.s. banks have fail sod far. >> 129 have fail sod far this year. >> looked at the screen, over 200 since 2008. and you have a problem list of 829 banks. >> that's right, that's right. >> so how confident are you that we move forward and we don't head to the brink of the abyss again or worse? >> you can't control all variables. we feel better about the banking system. the delinquency in charge ofs are coming down. the delinquency comes up, but the assets are falling.

the smaller banks populate the troubled bank list. we think our losses this year will be less than last year. the failures are higher in the smaller bank. >> will the changes have prevented what happen in the last couple of years? >> i think they would have. i think they would have prevented it. the destruction that occurred in the ongoing bankruptcy process could have been averted if we had the tools to set up the bridge. there were buyers for lehman, but it was just the franchise as an open institution was not economically marketable. but to the closed system, good bank, bad bank, transfer the good assets to the bridge and sell that, we could have done that. >> the sense is that you made bad loans to students, bad auto loans, bad mortgages, your bank goes under because you made a lot of mistakes but the big guys had all of the rotten paper that they bought up, they got it on the books and the fed comes in and buys it off of their books and you save the big guys, you save 829 banks are small,

medium-sized banks. they pay the price of the mistakes they made and the sense is that these guys don't pay the price. >> i think that's right. we don't want to go where we were before. anybody above that amount got the backstop from the government, we're not going to let you fail. everyone else had to fend for themselves. you're right. we don't want to add to that going forward. the differentials between large banks and small banks have increased as a result of this. the too big to fail for the backing of the institutions with the risk taking was very judgmental. so we think with the tools on resolution authority, we won't have that again. the process for the small banks going to be the same as it is for the big banks. >> we were talking yesterday on the panel. it was the fortune 50 most powerful women summits. we were talking about women and finance. you and i talked about this before, there aren't a lot of that. >> yeah. >> there they are right there.

now, actually -- >> finance. >> yeah, one, two, three, four. >> a lot of very successful women who work in different sectors of finance and banking in the audience. and we certainly have made a lot of headway. and there are reasons why more needs to be made in terms of the types of value that when you bring to the table in this and the way we think. why do you think we need to go further. what are some of the impediments you're seeing in getting your point across in a roomful of men when dealing with our economy. well, sometimes you have to speak up. as we discussed before, sometimes it's gender, sometimes other factors. you never know. people are listening. you need to repeat yourself if your point is not acknowledged. we talked about making a point and some guy later making the same point. >> it happens too often. and everyone has that experience. >> it is. it's true. >> did you notice that even in a lot of rooms within the room -- with the bankers, with the finance guys, and when you bring women in to change the dynamic,

one woman is really part for one woman. it makes a difference, two or three women -- >> it does help. that doesn't mean that all of the women are going to agree at the table. we can validate and acknowledge each other. sheila makes a point and someone else makes the same point, sheila just said that, didn't she. having another voice in the room validates what you're saying. >> sheila baird, thank you, pat, thank you for your patience. >> he waits every year for the most powerful women -- >> we'll be right back straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪ [ male announcer ] it's luxury with fire in its veins. bold. daring. capable of moving your soul. ♪

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specialty fuels like science, technology, engineering, and math. we cannot sustain -- oops. was that my -- oh, goodness. that's all right. all of you know who i am. i'm sure there's somebody back there who's really nervous right now.

don't you think? they're sweating bullets back there right now. >> oh. >> not good. >> funny, funny. >> come away from that. >> in situations like that, he has such a soft tie. >> he moved off of the prompter. very funny guy. he had a good wit. >> i should get up, chris? oh, you are. chris is running down the hall now trying to find my dad. >> where's your dad? >> apparently the car's late. he's going to be running in the building, he better not be wearing that jacket. >> he's on his way there. then he had the horse hair jacket. mentioned pimlico and better go back to change to my blue jacket. >> stop it. i do love -- you pointed this out before, the way the president -- he knows it's funny and he laughs at his own joke. he takes a moment. >> the guy is a supremely likable guy.

i wrote -- nora, i wrote my first column for politico yesterday. and the message was, don't get down in the mud with everybody else. i know the people in the far right have said hateful things just like people in the far left said hateful things of bush. don't get down in the mud. make people feel good. hope and change. things are getting better. happy days are here again. fdr optimism -- that's the ticket. >> let the vice president talk about strangling -- >> that's what made people fall. you followed them around -- that's why they fell in love with him in iowa. >> they're trying to re-create in the final days and weeks before the midterms to try to pack some of the big stadiums and the big band play first make sure there's tens of thousands of young people here to energize the democratic base and turn people out. that's what he's good at. they have been working in opportunity in the funny lines.

>> no one has accused me to be naive in politics. am i being naive to think that the president had a remarkable brand in 2008, hope and change, optimism. when we got off of that, sounding a little bit bitter in the "rolling stone" interviews and the "times" articles saying they're going to be digging through divorce proceedings, that's getting him off balance. he's an optimistic guy. it's bothering him. he's letting folks see it. when he does a job on boehner that puts the needle in, it's so much better than the denunciation. he's naturally witty. he's a funny guy. i know some of the lines are written, but the first dinner, the white house correspondents. i said he had 25 lines that were

hilarious. we were laughing our head off, he's at his best then. >> no doubt about it. >> i do think that the recent events of him connecting with real americans and not us to -- >> are we not real americans? >> though, we're fake americans. >> you and your real americans -- >> mouthpieces. >> no -- >> i think we're real americans. >> i'm talking about the american people. talking to the american people. letting them talk to him. >> yes, you are. but we are part of, i think, what they sometimes take on as the media. >> as bush used to call us, the filter. >> i don't feel like a filter. >> what real american people saying to the media were saying to him immediately. >> i'm a real american people. i'm not going to let you get away with it. >> you can if you want. there's my dad. >> oh, he's handsome.

>> he's not wearing the horse hair jacket. >> very good. >> thank god. >> say hello to your father. >> hi, dad. come on in, give me a kiss first. how are you doing? >> real american -- >> i'm offended as the upper west cider or a red neck of the area. >> no. no. >> wait a minute. i'm going to finish my point. i don't want your twitter to go wild and misunderstand -- talking to the american people and hearing from them. like the woman in that town hall and he's heard from him. >> look at this. look at this -- you're not wearing a suit, you're looking well. they're called khakis, there's no horse hair on this. a lot different from your jacket. greatly offended by. what's that jacket that you came back with? >> italy. the casual wear the jacket. very fashionable.

very fashionable. >> the "post" that you're talking about, the karzai government and the taliban? >> that's a good idea. if there's going to be an end to the war, i don't think it will be a military end. we'd have to win at high costs and the country is not prepared to pay that price. so accommodation has to come on two levels. a regional settlement involving the country's surrounding, and an internal settlement involving the parties. the taliban may be a party but parts of the taliban may be a party. >> what about we worked to drive the taliban out and we're helping to put the taliban back in in a power sharing agreement. >> we can go to war to get the taliban out, we went to war to get rid of al qaeda. and the taliban was sheltering it. >> harboring it, yes.

>> we have driven out al qaeda more or less. we're not quite sure. but more or less. we can be sure that the taliban doesn't give them a new shelter. not in charge of the government, but partially in the government, then we have accomplished our objective. >> what about too, the argument that the first lady laura bush was so involved in and so many women in political power that the taliban has been awful in terms of the treatment of women in afghanistan, the burqa, the oppression of women, girls not being allowed to go to school. why should we as a united states government after we lost so many men and women there that we have more than 100,000 people fighting through to allow the taliban to are enter a power sharing agreement that women and girls are treated this way. >> it's a painful issue. no doubt about it. you're right. but secondly, what are you prepared to pay for it? how many lives are you prepared to sacrifice? how many billions of dollars are you prepared to spend?

how much are you prepared to damage american international interests? because we are the only one that's involved. in the meantime on the sideline are sitting the russians, rubbing their hands, the chinese smiling mysteriously. the indians licking their chops because pakistan may go under. what's the benefit to us. so, sure, it's a moral issue. but a moral issue at a cost that's prohibitive. >> a moral issue we'll be facing in 2020, 2030 when we leave. doesn't matter if we can't -- we just can't -- there aren't enough troops to throw at this problem. >> that's what i'm saying. >> and we don't have enough time. so even if we were willing to sacrifi sacrifice, even if we found 400,000 troops to occupy that country for the next decade, when we left, people who had the same attitudes that the taliban had would still be there.

>> that's right. some sort of internal accommodation in a country that's not really a nation state, but a state with several different entities in it is the best solution. we talk of afghanistan as if it was inhabited by afghans. in fact, it's inhabited by afghan pashtuns, afghan tashiqs, and so forth. so that's been a mysterious amalgom that held afghanistan together. >> two years ago, he comes on the show, he's one of the first foreign policy leaders to differentiate publicly between the taliban and al qaeda. between 2001, 2008, 2009, those groups had congealed together in american's minds.

he's exactly right. that's what we're seeing today in the front page of "the washington post." i hope it happens. politically -- politically, the united states of america where people don't separate these groups out as the doctor did two years ago and petraeus is now, how hard is that politically to sale in make peace with the taliban. >> the vast majority of americans would like to see the war ended and ended honorably. you're going to see a lot of republicans in the house. john mccain and lindsey graham and joe lieberman and others that if you go for a deal there, that would be to sell out a coalition government, defeat for the united states. obama will have the problems from the republican party on the right side of the republican party. there will be a few in the republican party. i put you there if you're still there, some people who want,

seriously, who believe it's essential we go over there. >> mika and i have been going out giving speeches for two years now. i've been talking about the exhausting wars and mika has too, how we'll bring our troops home. how afghanistan is in an endless war. i have yet to go to a group, including republicans in new hampshire who didn't agree, that's spending $2 billion a week on an endless war is a foolish thing to do. >> bear in mind one point. if there is an accommodation, it's not going to be between us and the taliban. it's going to be between karzai and the afghans. with the other afghans who drew the taliban. we will be participating in this arrangement in a larger, regional umbrella. >> pakistan, there is the al qaeda in there. there are various tribes in there as well do you see

pakistan as surviving and us continuing in pakistan to fight the al qaeda there, or are you going to have to turn it over to them? >> i think the war persists and we dig ourselves in more deeply, we'll be ending up in a war involving afghanistan and pakistan versus us. a big, big regional mess with disastrous consequences for us. >> can't win that war. >> if there's some sort of settlement in afghanistan, i think there's a better chance that the pakistanis can resolve the issue -- their own issue on their own. because ultimately, the pakistani army has a sense of the national interest. and i think it can take care of the problem. right now, their problem is connected with the problem of afghanistan and that vastly complicates it. >> a key factor here, i think, joe, be general petraeus. incredible credit, great credibility. if he gives a benediction to the kind of deal that -- >> what general petraeus needs

to say, pat, is what the doctor said two years ago, it's clarifying. the taliban do not want to take down buildings in new york city. the taliban doesn't, al qaeda does. >> if petraeus gives it benediction to it, it will disarm -- >> if he doesn't, and it's ambiguous, he can end up paying the republican candidate. >> or on the ticket. >> on the ticket. >> on the republican -- >> i was a tough sale. >> but i don't think the vice president candidate -- >> here we go. >> let's flesh this out, though, this argument that we're going to be hearing from republicans, doctor, and some democrats. but mainly they'll say we'll have to stay in afghanistan because that's the best way to stop al qaeda in pakistan. seems to me to be a mindless argument. >> that is what barack obama is going to hear. >> sure. he'll also hear let's go after

iran. the job hasn't been finished. knock off the iranians and so forth. these prescriptions are either mindless or they're designed for some other purpose. because in either case, they're disastrous for the united states. >> i don't understand. i don't see president obama doing for iran now. you see it, i see it. it's a constant drum beat. again, after republicans win, they're going to get a lot of the folks in. the sanks aren't working. moving toward the nuclear weapon. got to do it. can't delay. what do you see president obama doing. do you see him resisting that? >> i do. i do. because he knows that first of all that would be a disaster for the united states. secondly, he knows, which is interesting, public opinion polls recently taken show that a large majority of americans don't want us to go to war against iran. he has popular support. so he'll resist. and, look, we have to use common

sense. iran cannot touch us. we have 500 times more power than they do. we could devastate them in one day. what is the national interest in attacking iran? some would say, well, that would protect israel. if we dig ourselves into a hole with iran, how will israel be better off? >> here's what the argument is. they'll get a bomb, they'll give it to terrorists and it will go off in baltimore harbor. >> nonsense. nuclear weapons are sensitive things that have to be given tender love and care. they explode in your fail or they don't explode. you have to have a highly skilled professional controlling the weapons. no country that has them is going to give them to lunatics. we have nuclear forensics and we know where the weapon came from.

>> so what is the impact in the middle east in the long run of iran getting a nuclear weapon in a so-called moderate middle east earn states fear that much more than we do. >> the region defends themselves. doesn't have the means -- the rates can defend themselves. drag them to war with iran, the whole region is destabilize. if iran is threatening, we gain more leverage because we don't offer and we should in my judgment -- i said this publicly, we should offer our nuclear umbrella to the uae, saudi arabia, egypt, israel. everybody. any threat by iran against any one of these states will consider as a threat against the united states. >> ask about iran -- the big question, who remains in power there? certainly not ahmadinejad. is it the mullahs? is it the revolutionary guard?

there's so much ambiguity. ayatollah khomeini the spiritual heads of the revolution now out of favor. who's in charge? >> there is someone in charge that in a creeky way operates. it's not just like the soviet union. it's a series of overall checks and balances. there's evidence that this system is put aside by political conflicts and personal conflicts. we're patient and contain them and provide an umbrella for the middle east, that system will evolve or break down. if we threaten them, that breaks the system. that's bad for us. >> it's not in israel's national

interest to have a war in iran, it would be disaster rouse. >> yeah, with iran. >> but that's not what benjamin netanyahu says, what iraq says, it's the constant drum beat that this represents, quote, an [ expletive ] st extin shl threat. >> the political system at large do not share the views that otherwise you have expressed and synthesized correctly. i think there's the vision of opinion. obviously many israelis would like us to do the job. but we are an independent country. what's the region, how best to react. act accordingly. we should not be stampeded to it. we should make it clear we're

not going to be driven into it by an israeli attack which participates a attack against us. we have to be clear on that. this is a no-no. i think the administration is clear on it. >> nora? >> i want to go back to afghanistan because we're talking about the front page of "the washington post" piece today. and we know that obama is pressing the national security team to find not only a military solution but a political solution. we were talking about general petraeus. i went back to the article that petraeus told reporters that high-level taliban leaders had sought to reach out to the karzai government, quote, this is how you end these kinds of insurgencies. this is exactly what the president wants. he wants a two-track strategy. a military and political strategy. this is the political side of it. this gives the president the exit strategy he's called for in july, he can say there's a government set up. that the taliban are working with karzai.

>> do we stay on the time line? >> can we stay on the timeline? >> i don't know about the timeline. but it makes a very important point here, namely, we need a person that can do it. this is karzai. i've been strongly opposed to all of the persistent attacks from karzai. >> even in the book that he's on and off his meds. >> if we undermine him, whom do we have to conduct that part of the bargain? because the bargain has to be both within afghanistan and regionally. we can't do the regional thing. reenforced by our power. but within the country, it has to be someone. i see no one else on the horizon in karzai. >> he looks good. he looks good. dark suit, you know, he left -- >> correct. >> i left -- >> it's a good tie. it's working, isn't it? aren't you proud of him. >> yes. >> yes. >> i'm so proud. >> yes. >> i think he's wondering what's happened to his daughter, actually. coming up, charlie crist coming

under fire for an attack ad unleashed before the big debate in the florida senate race. and douglas brinkley will be with us. dad, thank you for coming in. glad you made it. but first, let's go to bill karins for a quick check on the forecast. bill? thanks, mika. subtropical depression 17 has formed not far off of the east coast. but it's going to head out to the open atlantic. a look at it. the virgin islands. as far as the forecast track goes, it goes to the north and should become tropical storm otto. that's the o-named storm and go out to sea. airports today, rain in boston. going to be delays, it will be at logan airport. you see all of the greens, that's the heavier rains from providence, boston, over to springfield. over to albany. forecast today, new england is going to be soggy. a little better for dc to philly. as far as the rest of the country goes, we're looking nice. the only other problem areas in los angeles, by the way, is seeing some rain on and off during the day today. you're watching "morning joe" on

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work longer, get by on less. that's the marco rubio retirement plan. he wants to raise the social security retirement age, you work longer and harder for your money. and rubio wants to cut benefits

that's already tough enough to make ends meet. that's washington for you. balance the budget on the back of seniors. charlie crist is against raising the retirement aids. our seniors have earned it. >> i'm charlie crist, i approved this message. >> that attack ad kicks off the morning papers in the miami herald. flared up on the debate. marco rubio would hurt seniors who would hurt social security. the ad was called shameful. the san francisco chronicle, analysts say it's time for meg whitman to go on the offensive. a new reuters poll shows the gubernatorial candidate down seven points with jerry brown with four weeks to go until the election, she's 140 million in. that's not good for her. the new poll finds even though latinos strongly back democrats in the congressional

elections, 51% of latino registered voters said they would go to the polls this november, compared to 70% of all registered foe toews. all right, "usa today," is this the beginning of the end for yankee icon, derek jeter. the 36-year-old shortstop has done the worse of his career. but questions about his future in new york when his contract expires at the end of the year. wait until the end of the playoffs. stocks opened at the highest level. erin burnet is straight ahead on "morning knjoe." have healthy whole grain, and they're the right choice... (announcer) general mills makes getting whole grain an easy choice. just look for the white check. ♪

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stocks are up on the hope that the fed will save the day. erin burnet is here to answer the question -- will the feds save the day. the answer is? >> the answer is -- the answer is probably not. >> hold on, hold on. erin's kind of -- maybe christine o'donnell is starting a fashion trend. she's looking awfully dark. >> i'm you. >> i'm is she a witch? >> i'm not a witch. i'm you. >> try this. i'm not a witch. >> i'm not putting that on television, i'm not. you're going to replay it. and i'm not.

>> so try this. try this. say in a quiet voice, i'm you. i'm you. can you do that? >> resist him. >> that's good. >> she's good, she's good. >> smart. >> so now answer the question -- will the fed like the good witch of the east come in and save the day? >> they will have ben bernanke's foot sticking out. here's the problem. we said there were estimates that if the fed threw another $500 billion in the system, money they're printing, they threw that in the system, the market would go up 4%. now, that's one estimate. how little bang for the proverbial printed buck you're going to get at this point. it's that hope that sent the market higher. here's what we got this morning, a look at the real economy, minus the fed in all of this hope. it's not so great.

we have two key numbers on employment ahead of the friday number. here's what we found. layoff announcements are down. that's the good news. in terms of hiring, none -- absolutely no momentum in employment is the direct quote we got out of the survey from what's called the adp, a closely watched survey of whether private companies are hiring. they're not. they're just not hiring. the economy is sluggishly heading along. the biggest increase in holiday sales in the last four years but the level of spending not where it was in 2007, sluggish, sluggish, sluggish. that's the take-away for the economy right now. >> that's kind of rough. >> i'm sorry. i -- yeah. >> all right, well, erin, thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. just one time, just one time. >> i'm a good witch. >> i'm a good witch. that's a good start. now say i'm you. >> no, i'm not going to say that. >> that is strange. i don't know what that means.

>> got the good witch out of her. she said i'm you, i would have -- >> i'm a witch every single halloween my entire childhood. >> really? >> every single one. >> did i tell you i saw the king burnet and the queen as well? >> how are the king and queen? >> they're huge. >> they're the best there is. >> thank you. >> all right, guys, see you. >> and especially proud for not taking the bait this morning. >> there you go, exactly, smart woman. presidential historian doug brinkley next on "morning joe." hey, did you ever finish last month's invoices? sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you because i'm also making you a smoothie.

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ea sports released a new version of a video game, nba jam that features obama, bush, and

cheney. bush and cheney play the second half and obama and biden try to come up from a 600-point deficit. new version you can play as bill and hillary clinton. every time hillary turns her back, bill scores. it's just -- welcome back to "morning joe." with us now, presidential biographer and professor at rice university and contributing editor for "vanity fair" magazine, douglas brinkley. good to have you on the show. >> great to see you. >> pat and i were talking about barack obama. some little incident with humor. and just have wondered how barack obama 2008 have hoped and changed and got bury in the ugly realities of washington. >> i think so. the president doesn't like criticism. you can't be in washington because you're going to get hit all the time. ronald reagan has been used to stay away from any criticism.

barack obama has been hit a lot. he's hurt a lot. he's a bit angry at his base. he seems to be turning it around a little bit and trying to find his hope and change voice and going with the young people. >> that is so important. >> did you read the rolling stone interview. coming back to the white house. and then unloading on progressives. i just thought, speaking of reagan, something reagan just wouldn't do. reagan did somehow insulate himself from the criticism. >> reagan's genius. he never let his critics win. i edited his diaries. when he's angry, he would vent, gloria steiner would call me this -- he wrote two lines and reagan would say, i forgot about it the next day. he used the diary as venting not

just going to the journalists. >> it was a hot irish anger and all of a sudden the clouds would break and the sun would come out and he would start smiling. i tell you who did bother him, not "the new york times," he brushed that off of his back. but human events, pat, what are they saying? they're really upset by that. but he never showed it in public. >> okay, but isn't the landscape -- there were things that got to him. isn't the landscape so different where you can't find that zone or can't get away from it. you can't. >> good white house chief of staff will try to provide that for you. with rahm emmanuel, they were playing the votes so hard and the belief that they had it, they believed they gained so much -- the great society when johnson had 67 senators, so you can do progressive legislation. 60 was not a progressive mandate. we're a right center country. >> mm-hmm. >> and to try to push and eat up all of that capital, i think the

white house got startled. you're not going to listen to us, mary landrieu? senator nelson? you're not going to take our health care view? it got complicated for them. anger came out. >> don't they all make -- i was talking to a friend in the white house. somebody close and said -- it wasn't an insuit. i said, you're not special. do you not think george w. bush's people felt the same thing you felt when you came in, or jimmy carter's people. you're not special and you don't make the rules. but don't you find time and time again, it takes about a year or two for white houses, especially that run the insurgent campaigns like jimmy carter's campaign or barack obama's campaign that nobody gave them a chance. takes them a while to figure out they don't have all of the answers. >> that's exactly right. with carter, he never really got it. president obama is now seeing this week changing carter literally said, the democratic party is an albatross around my

neck. he then alienated the ted kennedy wing -- a direct quote -- there's no such thing as a democrat. obama doesn't have that problem. no one is challenging anymore the party. >> you see him trying to get cornered. >> i do. >> you turn his back on some of the bitterness. it's a natural human reaction to the rage that we see on the political landscape. we don't fault him for being age rip and then maybe even being bitter. but you see him moving away from that. >> i would recommend you turn on the night cable news and don't listen to what people are saying about him, read a couple of newspapers, and have somebody tell you what's going on -- if somebody is really attacking him and he needs to know, then have that conversation. but don't get part of the noise game here in town. it will debilitate you. >> you'll like this. you know what i do when -- and it's happened recently where there's so much rage and you open your e-mails and people are so angry. i actually -- you love this.

every presidential histories. i went through this past month. and the issue of big picture of the landscape to realize that you've got to look more than what's on tv last night or -- >> the last -- the last week -- >> the last argument. so, bob woodward reporting that the white house considering hillary for vp the next time around? a switch, you agree with this. >> i completely agree with it. it's in the works. her natural progression if you follow her biography, she doesn't want to stay more than four years as secretary of state. >> why is it in the works? >> because it's so logical, i don't think you can run again with joe biden and have obama -- you won't capture the energy of the campaign trail with that as a team. with hillary clinton. the problem that bush xli had is

he kept quail. the last -- w keeping chaney. didn't give you somebody to run the party afterwards. this case, hillary can come in and be vp for two years and she would be off running on her own. otherwise, she would be continuing in dealing with afghanistan and it's not going to be good for her. i think you could switch roles -- biden as secretary of state. >> the secretary of state. >> right. >> that's what he wants to do. >> it's what biden wants to do? >> i think so. >> remember in inauguration, we learned from jill biden, dr. jill biden on oprah that he didn't want the job. remember? not a that point. he wanted to be vp. >> he wanted to be vice president. >> i talked to a few vice president. you can only be vice president for so long until you realize you can do two things -- one is stick around in case something

happens to the president, and, two, is go to funerals. everybody thinks that joe biden has done a great job as vice president. but i'm sure he'll be itching to be secretary of state. >> a lot of vice presidents and postwar era have wound up in the oval office. when you have that -- >> that's the hard part. >> if i were joe biden, i would consider running for one term. >> you want to stick -- >> briefly. >> they wouldn't get me out of there, joe. >> all right. >> not leaving! >> thank you. >> thank you, guys. >> the role -- politics next. playing ) ♪ can't help it, can't help it ♪ ♪ can't help it, no no no... ♪ come on. ♪ can't help it, can't help it, no no no ♪ ♪ you drive me crazy ♪ and i just can't stop myself, uh! ♪ ♪ can't help it, can't help it, can't help it. ♪

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in the book, you have flattering things to say about george bush in an area that i was surprised in terms of his intellect. >> you know, i remember the people back in the 1980s used to say, particularly from my side, politics, ronald reagan, he's an innocent. you don't get to this position by being a fool. >> that's true. with us now in new york, former deputy assistant to the president and director of the white house office hofstra teenlgic initiatives and former white house speech writer and policy advisor to president bush. they're co-authors of "city of man," religion and politics in a new era. thank you for being on the show this morning. >> let me begin with you. you talk in this book a bit

about how the religious right got it wrong. explain. >> this has engaged in the last 30 years. the apocalyptic tone of the religious right. we wanted to learn the lessons going forward in the new era. i love the guy like tim keller. i go to his church. he might be the face of the evangelical movement. a guy a bit more moderate in temperament and have a bit more expansive world view. right, tim is a voice, a reasonable person, he's a person that understands in a very profound way what the relationship between politics and faith ought to be.

he's a much more tempered voice. he's not political. i don't think people who are professing christians and involve in church activities should be. we argue in the end, that's bad for both faith and for politics. >> is this an inherent statement that some on the right would think makes you all heretics. people like jim demint should be out there saying that gay people should not teach in schools? >> i think it's one of the real temp taegues of politics, left and right given our history to identify with the specific agenda. again and again. and we're arguing that's not good for faith or for politics. our views are human rights

indignity that's rooted in christian anthropology. those things like in the civil rights movement and the abolition movement were very important. but that's different than seeking, you know, preference for a certain religious approach or a certain sectarian set of beliefs. we try to draw those distinctions. >> pat buchanan? >> doesn't sound like the '92 convention, my man. you're in the republican party running in iowa and you want to win out there, seems to me you get a strong evangelical base, catholic base along the river. these old themes are enormously powerful. if you ear on the wrong side of a lot of questions, you can't be dominate in the republican party. >> i don't want to dismiss the importance of life issues that remain a very important achievement of the religious right to maintain these set of issues as par of the national debate.

we're not arguing that. but i think the agenda for many evangelicals has expanded a bit to talk about global poverty and human sex trafficking and a lot of other issues. i think that's positive. you look at people like rick warren and the leadership role he plays in the evangelical movement, it's different than jerry falwell. that's good for politics. i agree with you, it doesn't mean the other set of issues is outside of the political realm of importance. >> doug brinkley. >> i'm curious, nick romney is talked about as being the republican nominee or running for president. as a mormon, can romney get accepted by the christian religious right? >> a hurdle for some people. as an historian came over the issues and the prejudice restored in catholicism. so i think people reviewed this in the right way, a

distinguished faith in politics and say, look, what we're interested in is making common cause on some issues. not a religious test on america. we shouldn't. the founders set it up that way. i think he can overcome it. there is a distinction, because people want to know where you stand on the issues. i think they care more about that than where you stand on something like that. >> that's one of the achievements of the religious right. we try to be fair in the book. it was building ties to catho c catholics for the first time. it's one of the divisions in american life. john paul ii and a lot of changes in the pro life movement, building ties to roman catholics. i think we're head in that direction with mormons, the question is, you know, whether they reached it or not. and we may find knockout this primary season. >> really quickly, i've been surprised that the disconnect between the view of evangelicals

and the reality, it seems to be stuck in the 1970s or 1980s when i started noticing back ten years ago, 12 years ago, you start talking to young evangelicals about the issues most important to them. it was hunger, aids in africa. it was a lot of issues that didn't sound like what churches were saying and what falwell said 30 days ago. >> it's a large gap of some of the leaders, past leaders of the religious right have said and people themselves who are religious and conservatives say. there's a breakdown of the issues, for example, the millennial generation. even evangelical christians are more pro life than the older generation. what they've been pulling away from is a toal obligation.

christianity is an appendage to a political party. it bothers them and it ought to. >> thank you so much. the book again, city of man, religion and politics in a new era. discover customersl are getting five percent cashback bonus at restaurants. it pays to switch, it pays to discover.

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welcome back to "morning joe". what did you learn today? >> i defer my time to chuck and sa