psyched for this interview. popcorn not included but encouraged. it starts right now. >> if you are america's loudest and most recognizable proponent of a crackdown on immigration and border security, an advocate for jailing people who hire undocumented workers, what happens when you are accused of hiring undocumented workers? if you're lou dobbs, you come on this program the day the story breaks to confront the reporter who did the investigation. >> secure the border dorks the right thing and let's move forward. >> without undocumented immigrants, just who would look after his property? >> the accusation.

lou dobbs uses illegal immigration to maintain his homes and care for the show horses his daughter rides throughout the world. even after he called for the arrest of people who hire illegal workers. but dodd's rhetoric continued to fuel the fire. >> arizona's governor wants a crackdown. >> to give illegals social security benefits -- >> are you trafficking on the illegal alienish now? >> nevadians believe their jobs are being given to illegal aliens. >> complete the dang fence. >> the media adds lou doebs to the list of anti-illegal hypocrites. >> i would like to secure the border. if you hold employers accountable, many of these individuals and families will end up going home. >> meg whitman lied to the press.

>> she throw me away like a piece of garbage. >> the hypocrisy is absolutely stunning and breathtaking. >> this debate, there is great fiction, there is great art fies. >> can we all agree there's nothing more nazi than saying show me your papers? so heads up, arizona, that's fascism. >> good evening, i'm lawrence o'donnell. a new article alleges that undocumented imgrants worked in the gardens and horse stables of the media's leading anti-illegal immigration crew cader. is lou ready to turn himself in? joining me now is isabel mcdonald whose year-long investigation into lou dobbs' especially ploimt practices including five people he employed without papers is in the paper now.

and to respond, joining us from his new jersey home, lou dobbs. now lou, you are only the second person to do two appearances on this show. we're going to give you complete chance to deal with this. in courtrooms, the prosecution goes first. i'm going to have isabel make her case first briefly and then have you respond to that? is that all right, lou? >> i will brace myself. >> i heard some of the exchange on your radio show. so this is round two. isabel, what is the basic case you came up with in this year-long investigation? >> well, in my investigation, which included interviews with five workers who told me that they had work while undocumented, caring for lou dobbs' show jumping horses and for his property, i found that lou dobbs who has made himself

an emblem to this get-tough approach to immigration including advocating, as you mentioned, lawrence, for felony charges to be used against employers who hired undocumented worker, i found that lou dobbs himself has been exploiting undocumented labor. and the question that i'm really still hoping for an answer that i hope mr. dobbs can provide us for an answer to is where does the buck stop? i mean, lou made himself an emblem to this approach to immigration and he has not actually responded to the substantive evidence i present that there were at least five undocumented workers who cared for his show jumping horses and who cared for the grounds of his estate in florida. >> lou, undocumented workers, caring for your horses and the grounds of your home. >> what isabel forgot to put in

her story was the fact that the head of north run stables, which is by 22-year-old daughter's horses are all legal and have been for several years in every case. and i'm an emblem of what? i've been working very hard for the past year trying to come up with a compromise on illegal immigration, border security amongst all faction, trying to put straightforwardly out there is -- as she agreed on my broadcast, i never hired an illegal alien.

she's leaped on this to prove that i'm some sort of hypocrite. it's astounding. i have never hired an illegal immigrant, nor has any company that i own. and to suggest otherwise is just absurd. >> i had bell, what is your proof that lou has hired these workers? >> the testimony i got from his workers that labored on his estate and his showjumping horses. i think we need to be clear that lou is splitting hairs here, lawrence. >> this is pretty simple. lou, she says there are people she's spoken to who worked at your home who are illegal. that means you've hired these illegal workers working at your home, doesn't it? if what they are telling her is true. >> i would say that is categorically wrong.

it fails logically and straightforward causality. the only person who would have been illegal in any context would have been a land skaer working on a contractor who was working on my house in florida. that may have happened, but that isn't my employee, nor is it the reason i would have contracted with that landscaper. and to suggest i hired the person who is illegal, if indeed, she can document there was someone illegal is an absurdity. i absolutely did not. maybe there's some fine point there you would like to straighten out for me. i'm telling you point blank, i've never done so. >> i'm going to quote something you said on your radio show today while talking to isabel on your radio show. you said, i'm quoting you, that you have never, quote, directly or indirectly hired an undocumented worker. now, if you're now saying it is possible that someone hired by

your landscaping contractor had an undocumented worker on your property, dha that is indirectly hiring that worker. >> if you really want to go there semantically -- i'm just using your words. >> please, let's try to get to the really here. what i mean by indirectly is intentionally hiring a contractor for the specific purpose of hiring an illegal immigrant. >> isabel, what's your response to that. >> lou, you're holding yourself to a completely different standard than the standard that you've held all other american employers to. for instance, on your show on june 7, 2007, you called employers ridiculous for insisting that they should not have to be held accountable for their contractors 'em ployees.

i mean lou, does the buck stop with you or not? i think the american public deserves to know. >> i think the american public deserves a lot of things and among those things is a straightforward understanding and answer to the issue. what i have said and will continue to maintain is that we cannot possibly reform immigration in this country. immigration policies, immigration law, unless we can control immigration. and we cannot control immigration, isabel, if we do not control our borders and our ports. that syllogism, that logic remains in effect. you're taking on that cause celeb as if i'm not working hard to create a solution. at no time have you heard me call for the deportation in this entire debate of a single illegal immigrant. nor will you ever. i have also, and you neglected to point this out, i have maintained throughout that the only rational actor in this

entire crisis is the illegal immigrant himself and herself. and we have to be working towards a solution. but until all factions understand they're not going to get a whole loaf and that a compromise must be required to get us to move ahead here, we're not going to get much done. i want to change that. i've been working hard to do it and you neglected to even mention that. >> i just want to stay inside the details of what this case is. >> sure. first of all, it's not a case. wait a minute, lawrence. it's not a case. this is a hit job by "the nation." it is a left wing activist publication. >> lou, you're on trial for hypocrisy here in the court of public opinion. that's the case. but the point is that isabel in her reporting has spoken to people who say they have worked on your landscaping, they have worked on your property, and they have said that they are undocumented, illegal workers. now, you have said that --

>> and so what? and so what? how would i know that -- >> excuse me? >> how would i know that? >> let's talk about that. because i want to go to something that you said. i want to play something you said on this show on your previous appearance on this show monday. >> surely. >> hotels, construction, landscaping in this country. those are the highest concentration of illegal laborers in this country. >> and lou, we all agree with that. landscaping. highest concentration of illegal workers. you look at landscaping. the crew shows up, the contractor makes the deal with you and you look out there and you say to him, are all these people legal? can you document for me that all these people are legal? why wouldn't you do that? you know landscaping is exactly where they're going to end up in

your employ? >> you know what, as you suggest, it'm on trial on the court of public opinion. look, you're on trial every night, so am i. but the reality is this -- there is a law against you or me inquiring about legal status for a person in this country unless we're participants in a 287-g program, unless we're in law enforcement or immigration and customs or if we have a law enforcement responsibility at the border. you're suggesting, as some advocates are saying that you demand to know what a person's status is. you can't have it both ways, lawrence. this business of hypocrisy is overwhelming because the nation is stamped with it. presumably part of it is fundraising, i don't know. but for the nation and for you to ignore the fact that i have been working diligently to come up with a solution, a workable

solution for the past four years and with great diligence over the past year, i mean, i don't think that's fair, and i don't -- i think you're now on trial in the court of decency and common sense. what in the world is the point of it all? >> we are trying to keep this decent and common sensical. for me to work at warner brother, i have had to show them my passport and fill out a form proving that i was a legal worker. and to go on into these other areas you're talking about. california, domestic service agencies will show you the documentation of their workers. and, in fact, they advertise, and they promote their business on the fact that we request guarantee you absolutely legal workers. >> so explain to something for me, lawrence.

if that's so effective, why does california have the highest concentration of illegal immigrants in the country. >> because, lou, you know why. because people don't like paying -- people don't like paying that higher wage for the legal worker. isabel, isn't that part of this story? >> there's a guarantee process -- >> it's what makes the illegal worker attractive in this the landscaping business? >> i think we need to look at the fundamental issue of demand. and i think if you look at -- i'm not saying oh, lou is a bad person he's a bad man because he had contact with undocumented workers. the point of the article is to show that even lou dobbs, the emblem of this get-tough approach to immigration enforcement, even he has been unable to manage his own property in such a way that there are not undocumented workers.

>> where is the get tough -- wait a minute. >> lou, could you just let me finish, lou? >> may i? >> i'm just finishing -- >> a couple more sentences from isabel, then i want to get to your point. >> you got it. >> i think that lou is the victim of his own completely unrealistic rhetoric, and if we want to find solutions to immigration, we have to start with reality. we have to start with the reality of what goes on in our own backyards, what goes on in the cities of america, and we need to recognize that there are millions of people who have been criminalized for working for people like lou, and we need to give them a chance to come out of the shadows, because the real problem here, and i think this is something that lou has been getting at over the years, though i think he's misguided us because he's used this very

black and white rhetoric about immigration, but the problem with having such huge parts of sectors like landscaping in the shadows is that workers don't have adequate protections. and we need a way to bring people out of the shadows so that they have better protections and so that everybody can enjoy a living wage in this country. >> lou, can you stay with us and respond to this after a break? can you let me get a commercial break in here? >> it would be my pleasure. >> okay, lou dobbs, isabel macdonald. we'll be back. she felt lost... until the combination of three good probiotics in phillips' colon health defended against the bad gas, diarrhea and constipation. ...and? it helped balance her colon. oh, now that's the best part. i love your work. [ female announcer ] phillips' colon health.

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we're back. isabel mack donald has done a year-long investigation into lou dobbs 'em ploimt practice and has discovered some undocumented workers in his stables and in his home doing landscaping. lou dobbs, isabel made a point that you wanted to expand on. please go ahead. >> very simply, i have hired no illegal immigrants, no company of mine has hired illegal immigrants. and that's a fact. thirdly, she misrepresented what the story was about to a number

of people in the horse industry, suggesting it was about getting visas for illegal immigrants. but all that aside, i am a target for the nation because they are a left wing activist publication. i have no problem with that. but the fact that she has admitted that i have done absolutely wrong or illegal seems to be something that people want to avoid here. >> where was that admission? i didn't hear that admission. i didn't hear that admission. >> i have done nothing illegal. >> you didn't hear her say -- let's try it right mao. did you not say that i had no evidence that i had ever hired an illegal immigrant either personally or through one of my companies? >> lou, you have a lot more experience and i got caught up in your hair splitting earlier, and i will grant you, i don't have evidence that you directly, knowingly employed any

undocumented worker, all i'm saying is they labored on your property. and the question i'm wanting you to answer is where does the buck stop? you became an emblem for a hard line approach and you're holding yourself to a totally different standard. you never made allowances for employers who relied on subcontracted undocumented workers before. why should we grant you this. >> go ahead, lou. your turn. >> no one has not hired an illegal immigrant through their companies would not in any way be responsible for the hiring oaf an illegal immigrant. that seems straightforward and hardly a matter of splitting hairs. it seems purely straightforward and reasonable. does it not? >> lou, i have to rule that we're splitting hairs. the judge rules that we're splitting hairs.

especially on this show that you said, you know, you've never directly -- or on your radio show you said you never directly or indirectly. we all indirectly employ, hire, pay, give money to illegal aliens. when i go to the car wash on ventura boulevard and my car is getting cleaned by those guys and i tip them cash, i know who i'm giving money to, don't i? i mean, i didn't hire them, but they are indirectly working for me, cleaning my car. they are indirectly in our lives at minimum indirectly in all of our lives providing services. >> there are 12 million to 20 million illegal immigrants. we are trying to do something and they would not be in this country if employers were not illegally employing them. those illegal employers, by the way, hire them directly, whether it is a chicken processing plant or a construction company.

>> so what do you call the people who hire the illegal employers? what do you call the people who hire the illegal imployers? >> the hiring of illegal employers? >> yes, if i hire a contractor and that contractor is an illegal contractor. >> you tell me. >> what they're calling you is a hypocrite. >> you tell me. >> what they're calling you is a hypocrite if yaw do that. what i'm agreeing to is you absolutely didn't commit a crime if you did that. i'm agreeing to that. but when you take to the pulpit and preach what you've preached, you've got to understand why people think this is a hypocrite call outcome, that isabel would be able to find -- >> a hypocrite call outcome.

the nation just discovered -- i'm sorry? if isabel was able to find illegal workers on your property, you recognize what that means in terms of both your public image and its -- the way it doesn't fit with your public statements. >> well, again, let's go through the facts. there is no evidence whatsoever that i ever hired an illegal immigrant because i ever have. if you want to hold me to a different and higher standard. you go right ahead. >> let's grant that point for the rest of the interview. and now what i want to do is examine -- you spend a lot of time thinking about this subject. and i want you to think about the subject with one more dimension. you've talked about the illegal employers and we're all going to agree that the employers who do this knowingly and illegally in order to exploit that cheap labor, that is illegal and that's a different class of

activity of what we might be talking about tonight >> it's more complicated even that that. >> sure. so let's complicate it. let's do one more level of complication. let's talk about the people who hire contractors who have been -- and those contractors are filled with illegal workers. what do you call people who hire contractors who use illegal workers. what are they in the lou dobbs -- >> they have no standing of any kind. they're kmiting no -- >> so that's okay with lou? >> is it okay with me? when you talk about 12 million to 20 million americans, what would you call a solution. what would you recommendation be? and enforcement of our security

at the board enand ports. now, if you find something wrong with that or deficient in reason or approach, i would be delighted, i would be the first to say bring on your solution. because we've been struggling as a country for four years. and the fact of the matter is the so much yo ethnic interest groups, the business group, the open border group, the amnesty groups, each of them is conspiring through their own big -- pig headedness, they are hurting the illegal immigrants now in this country and they are hurting this economy and our society by the strategies they're pursuing. why in the world should we be four years later a discussion about what we're going to do about immigration and border security. we have brought in more illegal immigrants. their condition has worsened. our border security is still not

in place. our port security is worse if anything. and we are having discussions from the nation about whether or not three people had documents who were, you know, working on my lawn in florida. it's utter madness. and the real absurdity, i think, lawrence is that the mainstream media buys into this bull and carries the nonsense along as if it were logical, reasonable and had anything to do with law or breaking of the law. it had nothing to do than using my name to fundraise for "the nation." >> let's get to the larger subject here. >> i'm just talking about the latest edition. >> the article is available at thenation.com. i want anyone o's interested in the evidence to dig into the article and make your own judgments about what you're reading. isabel, there is a larger issue here.

slew right about that. there are human solutions or propisitions that have been advanced about this. they tend to get shouted down in the politics of this, in terms of let's just seal the border, john mccain's humane policy has just become you know, build the dang fence. that's his policy now. and it's your position that lou dobbs is part of what has actually led to an oversimplification of this discussion and a reduction to nothing but build the damn fence? >> absolutely. i mean, i appreciate that lou has repositioned himself on this issue and i think it's wonderful that, for instance, he is no longer using the term illegal aliens. we could actually go further and stop using the word illegal altogether. >> lou is not going that far. go ahead.

i think that we need to be accountable for what we say, especially when we have such a large platform as what lou dobbs has had for years on the i issue of immigration. all i'm saying is we need to start with reality. and even now, when lou dobbs says we need to first secure the border, we have to look at the fact that there was -- i talked to a stable worker who had crossed the border to work with lou dobbs' $1 million showjumping horses. we have to address the demand. and lou dobbs in many ways typifies the demand. it's america's wealthy elites who most depend on that labor. and you can't on the one hand criminal size these workers and at the same time exploit them. lou dobbs you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

>> when have i ever suggested criminalizing an illegal immigrant. when? >> you had suggested on cnn in 2006, you had suggested that the deportation of -- >> let's cut that -- people can go to google and find out exactly what lou has been arguing. all of his comments have been public for years. lou, we're running out of time here. one more point from you. you're going to be addressing the tea party this weekend. are you going to tell them you're in favor of a humane immigration solution? and are you going to tell them what you know, which is that the obama immigration has cracked down onboarder security much tougher than the bush administration ever did and is spending back far more people back across that border than the bush administration ever did? >> the answer is this -- i'm going to talk about kwh i've been talking about for several years now which is a rational,

effective, humane immigration policy. i'm also going to talk very seriously about border security and going to talk very seriously about the responsibilities of the government of mexico to its people, and the responsibility of the united states to the end its patronizing condescending foreign policy towards the government of mexico in the interest of both nations and both peoples. i'm going to be talking straightforwardly about what i think are the best solutions available to us to end this crisis and to move ahead in this situation. >> thank you very much for joining us for this special extended interview tonight. thank you. >> the employment of the undocumented workers have put the campaign of meg whitman. an undocumented worker student confronts meg whitman. i'll have that next.

or me and m. i was living on welfare and supporting a family of four. after i got the job at walmart, things started changing immediately. then i wrote a letter to the food stamp office. "thank you very much, i don't need your help any more." you know now, i can actually say i bought my home. i knew that the more i dedicated... the harder i worked, the more it was going to benefit my family. this my son, mario and he now works at walmart. i believe mario is following in my footsteps. my name is noemi, and i work at walmart. ♪

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as california's republican candidate for governor tries to get past her own problem with hiring an undocumented worker as a housekeeper, she tells an undocumented honor's student that she should be kicked out of country. i'll talk to that student next. and senator john mccain has

reversed course on his immigration views. and he's reversed course on the whole maverick thing. >> the immigration issue is, of i love my job. i can see what it's doing for the community on a day-to-day basis. natural gas is cleaner burning than most fossil fuels and it's vital to our energy needs. increasingly we're finding gas in hard to reach areas, but now we've developed new technology that enables us to access gas in hard rocks so we can bring more fuel to homes and help provide a reliable source of energy into the future. until the combination of three good probiotics in phillips' colon health defended against the bad gas, diarrhea and constipation. ...and? it helped balance her colon. oh, now that's the best part. i love your work. [ female announcer ] phillips' colon health.

>> the immigration issue is, of course, playing a huge role in this year's campaign, especially in the southwestern border states.

republican billionaire candidate for california governor meg whitman is facing allegation that she knowingly employed an undocumented housekeeper for nine years. the "sacramento bee" newspaper has reported between 1979 and 2008, whitman only voted in a handful of elections. now suddenly interested in the political process, she has spent over $120 million from her own fortune trying to get elected governor. and she's trying to court latino voters, complete with a hispanicish language website and political ads in spanish. but whitman came face to face with the reality of the undocumented life in this country. an undocumented university student directly affected by our nation's broken immigration policy at a spanish language debate against her opponent, the state's democratic attorney general jerry brown. >> my question for you is the following, as governor of the state of california, would you support yes or no to enact

helping students in my situation to be in the path of legalization, thank you. >> first of all, i am so pleased by your success and you were able to get a kindergarten through 12th grade education but here's the challenge we face. our resources are scarce. we're in terrible economic times and california citizens have been denied admission to these universities. and i don't think it's fair to bar and eliminate the ability of california citizens to attend higher universities and favor undocumenteds. this is a very tough situation but i don't think it's fair to the people who are here in california legally. so i would not be for the california dream act and for the federal dream act. it's on a partial solve to a very challenging situation. >> the university student who asked meg whitman that situation graduated from a high school as valedictorian of her class.

she will soon graduate from fresno state university with honors. and she joins me now here in studio. he has asked that we take the necessary steps to hide her identity because of her undocumented status. let's talk about that point that meg whitman made about the notion that undocumented students in california are taking places in the university system that could otherwise go to california citizens. >> i think that government is very wrong because we are not accepted into colleges and universities in california based on our status. we're not asked whether we're documented or undocumented when we apply to a college or university. i, in fact, applied to several and i got accepted to all of them. so we get into university, not because of our status but because we deserve to be in a university. in my case, like you said, i had excellent grades. i was involved in my community,

and i did community service like any other student would in this country to get into a college. so i think by her saying that we are taking the spot of somebody else, we are not. we deserved our spot because we earned it. >> students in the california system number in the hundreds. it's a tiny fraction of 1% of the entire student population as far as anyone can tell at this point. what does meg whitman need to know that she doesn't know about what it's like for you coming this country, not speaking a word of english, come into the university system, achieving what you've achieved with honors academically, what that climb has been for you. what do you think meg whitman doesn't understand about that? >> i think she doesn't understand our experience as undocumented people. although we came undocumented,

we have been able to incorporate ourself into the society to learn english, which is one of the arguments against undocumented people. we have been in schools, we have become friends with american people. if we walk on the street, nobody can tell the difference because we are a culture rated into this society. we have to work hard for education. we don't just get it for free. my parents paid taxes every single year they have been in this country and so have my siblings. i have to work up to two jobs every semester to pay for my tuition and fees. and you're the young nest your family. you're the first to get to college? >> yes. >> what would the dream act do for you. >> the dream act would give me a path to have citizen. >> what would you have to do?

>> it has two options. you could attend four year university for two years or join the army, the military for two years. and after that, it would give us temporary legal status for six years, and that would be the next step. so it's not an automatic legalization. it's process, but it would give me a path to legalization. >> what do you think you're going to do when you graduate without a dream act? how do you think you'll make your way within the work force? >> i will probably have to go back and work in the same thing my parents do or that any other undocumented worker does and that's agriculture work. it would really throw away all my hard work and education because i would not have the opportunity to be a part of the work force in what i studied.

>> thank you very much for coming in and letting meg whitman know what she does need to know about this. coming up, "vanity fair" sheds light on the real john mccain. and conservatives generally don't like the idea of too much government. so maybe they haven't thought through their plan about government regulating homosexuality. ♪

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time for tonight's "rewrite." we take on a sensitive matter that was not handled with care. if public health expert rings a bell, it's a good friend of glenn beck. he serves as a professor for beck's online university. many of his historical claims have been debunked. during barton's radio show this week, he talked about how we are a health conscious nation, banning transfats, taxing cigarettes and so-on. so naturally mr. barton sees the

next step. >> homosexual/bi sexual individuals are more than seven times likely to contemplate suicide. they die decades earlier than heterosexuals. nearly one half admit to 500 or more sex partners and nearly 1/3 admit to 1,000 or more sex partners in a lifetime. >> wow. >> there's a lot of so-called facts in there and figures and you'll notice dr. barton does not tell you where he got them. folks at the huffington post did some digging and it seems he's citing paul cameron a psychologist and sex researcher who was kicked out for failing to cooperate with the committee during an investigation into his research. but it seems the crux of his argument is this -- the lifestyle of gay, lesbian, bisexual transgender people causes depression and high suicide rates.

but professor barton, you should pause to consider how the homophobia and easily flowing hatred might contribute to that suicide rate. take the tragic end of rutgers university freshman tyler clementi after video of his sexual encounter with another web who put it on the web by people who think that's as funny as you do. the 18-year-old posted a message on facebook reading, jumping off the gw bridge. sorry. he went to the george washington bridge and stepped off. if it is suicide you want to stop, please go to alaska and close it down. it has the highest suicide rate of any state in the union. save them, professor barton, you can do it. if they'll listen to sarah palin, surely they'll listen to a scholar like you. we'll be right back.

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>> he's known as the maverick. used the label in his presidential campaign. but after 30 years in politics he's getting the hang of the system and following his party in lock step, using their talking points word for word and leaving everyone, friend and foe alike what the -- happened to john mccain. >> you know, it's really sad to see john mccain who should be revered as a statesman basically reduced to a political shape shifter. >> in a new "vanity fair" the man who never was. we thougt we knew ever really existed in the lasting legacy of sarah palin that he never intended to leave. the author joins me now from washington, d.c. i think a fair number of people

think he looks a what he has to do to win the campaign and say is it really worth it? how did this mccain version we're seeing now come to be? >> he might lose his seat to former congressman jd hayworth who was twice informally voted amongst the dumbest in congress. but because of the angry mood of people around the country, including arizona, he seemed vulnerable. so he quickly toed the line on all the republican issues. he became an opponent of the health care proposal. dropped his support for climate change legislation. he greatly altered his view of immigration and more or less did a 180 on gays in the military. so he really -- he changed almost everything that he stood for.

>> now, you quoted mccain in the article saying i've always done whatever's necessary to win. isn't that the organizing principle of his behavior then and now? >> well, i what i explore is if that in fact hasn't always been the organizing principle and he looked like more of a maverick than he ever was. his voting record is conservative throughout his time in the senate and the house before that. but because he took spectacular fights. i mean, he waged a heck of a fight on campaign finances, he certainly tangled with president bush over the conduct of the wars in afghanistan and iraq. he looked as if he were much more independent and mavericky than he might really have been. what those things were partly driven by was personal distaste for president bush. >> now, you say that it may be that his lasting political legacy is the palin extravaganza, sarah palin, todd palin, levi johnston, the entire soap opera and the political

force, if we can call it that, of sarah palin. does he realize how big a mistake that was? i mean, not only did he choose an unqualified person to be vice president or possibly vice president of the united states, but he has sent her into a republican party where she is really messing up the way they do business. >> i have to say he absolutely does realize it, and i think he's absolutely powerless to acknowledge it or do anything about it. because if he acknowledged it he would essentially, you know, vaporize himself. and make himself a nonentity in republican politics and, you know, in american life. i think part of what explains some of his grouchy behavior over the past year is just that. he knows when it came to the first important choice any presidential candidate makes, a choice of a running mate, he really blew it. >> todd perdham of "vanity fair." great to talk to you.