not because the senate race there is such a nail biter, the democrat u chris coonce is leading christine o'donnell by doesn't digits. at the first nationally televised debate last night both candidates went on the attack. >> in this election delaware voters face a clear and important choice between on the one hand, my opponent. a candidate who wants to take the state and country back to the failed economic policies of the past. who values partisan bickering over compromise and solutions and ho i believe has extreme positions that threaten vital education programs and would abandon our commitment to our veterans. >> the america we knew and grew up with is being threatened in the most serious way. in just three years we will be paying $1 billion a day on the interest alone on our national debt. the common sense men and women in this room and across delaware know this is not sustainable. yet, my opponent wants to go to washington and rubber stamp the failed spending bills that are

coming from -- that have cost us $2.5 million. >> richard wolffe joins us to talk about this more. after last night, who won the debate? >> zbli both have to cross a certain bar in this case. christine o'donnell, for all ore television experience and calm and poise on camera really spoke very, very badly here. confusing iraq and afghanistan. not being able to cite a supreme court decision she disagreed with and stumbling over the questions of cuts. if you're going to complain about spending, you should have ideas about what to cut. those stumbles are a real problem for her. but her performance was more polished in style. the substance justç fell apart >> let's talk about what we're going to see tonight.

there's a debate this evening coming up between harry reid and sharron angle. and this is pretty azing for a lot of people lot of people who believe what's happened to harry reid. and sharron angle coming on strong. what should we expect to hear tonight? >> harry reid has to show he's more likable than anybody in nevada thinks he is. his approval ratings are so dismal. he also has to point out his opponent is out of the mainstre mainstream, and that's been the direction of his campaign. sharron angle has to do what christine o'donnell tries to do. to show she's in the mainstream, she's not scary and doesn't correspondent to the attack ads. both have to cross the bar of likability. >> certainly with the midterms, nobody would say voters don't get apathetic. it's interesting to see president obama. he'll will holding a youth town

hall meeting on mtv. michelle obama is on the trail right now. explain what their presence doe does. >> here president obama needs to try to get some of them. just a fraction of them who showed up in 2008 to show up again this time. they've really disengaged. not with any election, but especially with the midterms. especially, for instance, he's going to campaign in columbus, ohio. big university town over the weekend. those ohio races are very close. if they bump up turnout in columbus then maybe people like governor strickland has a chance of holding onto his job. >> they're certainly pulling out all the stops. so california is in a world of hurt. by the numbers alone, california's problems are america's problems, too. the state has the eighth largest

economy in the world. right now the state has a $19 billion budget deficit and more than 12% unemployment rate. democrat jerry brown and republican meg whitman try to convince voters they have the w&utions for all the problems. john harwood joins us now from california. he's traveling with the whitman campaign. let's talk about this. i mean, we have foreclosure issues. california had the highest number of total foreclosures in the country. how do they say they can help combat this? >> well, look, what the reality of the race, thomas is for the last few days we haven't been talking about foreclosures or jobs. they've been talking about the illegal immigrant housekeeper that meg whitman used to have and the use of the word "whore"

by a jerry brown aide. we saw in a debate the candidates keeping those controversies alive. i'm right now at a diner, philly dog in bakersfield where she's campaigning across the way trying to connect with average voters. i gave her a chance to shut the other controversy down, she said it's up to the state of california. it's up to the voters of california. she may be a businesswoman. she's learned the ways of politics well. they're trying to milk this for all it's worth because they were hurt so bad by the housekeeper. >> so learning the sport of the artful dodge. >> totally the sport of the rtful dodge. and also where so many voters don't pay attention to the policy discussions to try to use

some personal slip-up, a flub, an insult, an ill-chosen word and try to make mileage. they may be the thing to connect with voters in a tight race. whitman is a few points down in the polls. she's running against jerry brown who has been around california politics for 40 years. each o them are looking for anything to seize the attention of voters. if it's illegal immigrants and the use of the word "whore" so be it. >> but they're not giving any address to the $19ç billion budget deficit and how they would flip it to get california back in the right direction? >> well, sure, they're addressing those. mostly in general tralties. meg whitman said she could cut the deficit with no new taxes and without cutting important services. that is not likely to be the

situation that she actually has to grapple with p if she's elected as governor. as i noted to her, if that were that easy to find ways in the california budget, arnold schwarzenegger who has been struggling with that for years now would have turned to it. but that's the way campaigns are runs. jerry brown has not been specific about how he will close the deficit either. >> hopefully they'll come up with something soon. thank you, john harwood, we appreciate it. social networking sites, online forum, places where you post your resumé are becoming a true gold mine for web scrapers. marketers are paying big bucks to companies to dig into the sites to find out personal information about you on everything from what medicines you take to your emotional state of mind the people doing it say they're just trying to find new customers out there. julia joins me in studio now to

talk about this. great to have you with us. >> thank you for having me. >> this seems like a completely invasive policy or procedure. however, all of us are putting this information out there. so explain data scraping, which is a new term to me, and is it actually legal? >>. >> well, it's in some sense what we all do when we look at the interpret and cut and paste them and do it at a file. they do it at a high volume really fast. which is why the legal issues are complicated. you can't prevent people from reading your website and trying to remember things they foun there. so there's been a lot of contradictory laws. >> should we assume that whatever we put out there is basically firing a bullet from a gun you can never get back? >> yes, that's a safe assumpt n assumption. >> so the sites moreç frequent by the groups is? >> everything is being scraped all the time.

nowhere is safe. but the things we're most concerned about is our own personal information. so social network sites, resumé sites, places where your phone number is listed, anything like that is something to be concerned about. however, you don't have much choice, either. you can't prevent this from happening unless you don't put any information online, which is unrealistic these days. >> so how many people are affected by data scrapers? >> basically everything that everyone writes at some point is being scraped. wikipedia has a counter showing how often it's scraped. it's a lot of times. >> so what shocks you the most? >> the thing i found upsetting was that we wrote about this medical board where people were talking about their diseases. the scrapers came and created a fake profile and pretended to be

a patient and then started scraping the comments. that's the place where you are a password. you feel like you're protected. you're talking about something really personal. >> so you think you're a part of the online community and you're having a personal conversation with someone you think is emotionally going through the same things that you are, and it's actually a bogus trojan horse person. >> i don't think the scraper was probably having a conversation. he was just collecting everyone else's conversations. the site did shut them down. the company did apologize and say they will not do it anymore. it made me wonder hauchb other people are trying to break in. >> do you think this is not a new idea? >> no. >> probably other people are doing it. >> yes. >> just not getting caught. >> right. exactly. >> but so how did they capture the guy from the neil son company? >> well, you can figure out who the other computer is.

so the medical board where the discussion was happening, pasks like me were able to trace it back to neilson and send him a seize and desist letter. >> and they did so right away. >> yes. >> for all of us out there that are a part of social networking sites, that worry about this and still want to be connected that way, what can we do? >> these people are fighting the scrapers every day. it's a bit of an arms race. we manage to capture a moment in time where the scrapers were ahead. these sites are always battling. you hope you're betting on a site that will win the bait battle. >> there's more of us than them, right? we should be able to win this. >> we hope. >> the mystery of a 10-year-old cancer survivor who vanished from her home in north carolina. coming up nec, new insights into the case.

investigators are trying to find a young north carolina girl missing since saturday. police have charged the girl's stepmother with obstruction of justice, but there are still no signs of the 10-year-old. police say no one has seen her since last month with the exception of her immediate family. after a brief amber alert the case shifted to a homicide investigation. msnbc analyst and former fbi profifeer clint van zandt is joining me via skype to talk about this. it turned into a hospital investigation. the stepmother admitting writing a phony ransom note about this. how do you break this down, especially when the immediate family is involved? >> well, it seems to be the stepmother. the stepmother and biological father hp the child. they had only been in the house six weeks. neighbors in the vicinity of the house said we never saw a little girl at that house at all.

so last weekend there was a fire at the house in the backyard. police fire came. evidently extinguished the fire mchlt the course of this this, a note was found on the biological father's automobile making difference to a million dollar ransom. well, the authorities very quickly determined the note was allegedly supposed to go to the biological father's boss who he works for. it looks now that the biological mother and the stepmother and the biological father have to know what happened to the little girl. no one saw her in or around the house. it is really a good story. the ransom note appears to supposed to think the police

think the little girl was kidnapped by mistake. >> the stepmom's name is baker. how long can they keep her in custody for obstruction of justice? >> well, they have a number of things going. she's hung a lot of bad paper. she's written bad checks. she has fraud charges against her, as does the biological father. they're now charging her with felon obstruction of justice, which is of course, punishable by a couple years in jail. notwithstanding the other charges. you and i looking at this, it looks like they're holding the stepmother in jail. she seems to be the one with the key to the disappearance of this little girl. but the bio jj logical father has to know, thomas, he has to know what happened to his daughter. i think perhaps the police are leaving him out, hoping if they work with him, he'll eventually tell what really happened to this little girl. >> and you know, just to remind everybody again. this is a 10-year-old little

girl. a cancer survivor. he was struggling with her hearing. she was home schooled, as i understand it. when kids are home schooled, what types of checks and balances can there be for a situation like this one? >> part of this, thomas, was supposedly that children and family services had been call thod the house because of injuries that the little girl sustained. at least some member of the family, somebody had to raise their hand and say this little girl is being mistreated. but there's a lot of responsibility right now. the stepmother, the biological father. the relatives of this little girl who say she was locked up every day for all but ten minutes a day. thomas, that's not home schooling, that's home torture. that's what this little girl was undergoing.

if one or two people raise their hand, in this society we're responsible for children. we have to call and we have to pound on the door of social services and the the police until they come and rescue this child because if this little girl is dead, there's a number of people who to some extent share that responsibility. >> it's really sad. sounds like home detepgs ntion me. we want to talk about the situation in falcon lake. tiffany hartley saying mexican pirates shot and killed her husband. now there's new evidence coming in in light of the days and the investigation that's gone on. explain how her story is more plausible now? >> well, i think it is. thomas, we've been scammed. america, as a media audience. we were scammed by the runaway bride. we were scammed by the balloon boy. we were scammed by the woman who said somebody threw acid in her face. all the stories and many others are falling apart when we poured

our hearts out. we've dedicated hundreds of hours of investigation in media. when the story came up this woman and her husband were on jet skis, mexican druggies came out and shot them. they killed her husband. she managed to escape by the skin of her. now her husband, who had a life jacket on driving a jet ski, we can't find either one floating in the water there. i think a lot of us took a step back. i know i did. perfectly honest, i said, i'm from missouri. you got to showç me a little b more, unfortunately, because i'm not going to get taken again. the sheriff that's investigateg from the united states side of the lake. the borders between texas and mexico. the sheriff has come up with at least one witness who said i saw a woman on a jet ski high tailing it across the lake, being chased by a boat with four men in it. that seems to confirm her story. they found traces of blood on her life jacket that seems to

confirm she jumped in the water. she tries to rescue her husband. they have a video that shows them being stopped that morning for a traffic violation on their way to the lake. so the story, although it was initially implausible seems to be the truth right now. the challenge is why would two intelligent people knowing that mexican druggies had already attacked three fishing boats on the same lake earlier this year, what were they doing going over to the other side? >> investigation continues. the body has not been found still. clint, thanks so much. good to see you. >> thanks, thomas. good to be with you. still ahead, msnbc's rachel maddox will be here to talk about her interview with military pilot who is in this cased the pressure of combat but also the confusing status of the don't ask, don't tell policy.

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welcome back, everybody. here's what's happening in the news now. senior taliban leaders are coming to kabul for peace talks. the u.s. military on the ground, they are letting them come peacefully. this is the clearest indication of american support for high level discussions aimed at ending the war in afghanistan. right now the u.s. coast guard in virginia is searching for one of their own. a member of the security and safety team fell into the water off the coast of newport news last night. the member has not yet been identified. the world's longest tunnel is expected to be finished tomorrow. crews in switzerland have been drilling a rail tunnel that is more than 35 miles long.

part of a larger project to shift goods from roads to rails in concern that heavy trucks are destroying the landscape. swiss voters are paying more than $1,300 each to fund the project. they say the money is worth spending after 23 years of construction they will only shave one hour of travel time between northern europe and italy. coming up next, everybody, stay with us. rachel maddox joins us to talk about her exclusive interview about don't ask, don't tell. [ male announcer ] there's a big idea happening in health care

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here's a look at how the stocks areç doing. the major average in negative territory for much of the day. with about o 30 minutes left, we have the dow down 40 points. the s&p 500 about eight. and the nasdaq off nearly 13

points. verizon wireless will start selling apple i-pads in retail stores on october 28th. they'll offer data plans for $20 a month. this breaks at&t exclusive hold on apple's mobile devices. it could give apple and verizon a boost in the holiday season. they're still working to develop a variety of the iphone for veriz verizon. and rates on 30-year mortgages fell to the lowest level in decades. they were pushed down to 4.19% by treasury bond yields. investors are buying up treasury bonds in anticipation to a move by the federal reserve. the average rate on a 15-year fixed loan also fell to 3.62%. the lowest on record since 1991. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. thomas, back to you. >> thanks so much. so fallout continues to be swift as well as harsh after a

federal judge in california ruled the military's 17-year-old policy known as don't ask, don't tell is unconstitutional and must be halted. robert gates is in favor of repealing the law that bans gays and lesbians from serving openly. on wednesday he also said an abrupt end to the policy could have enormous consequences for the troops. president obama said for years his administration plans to appeal the ruling because they want the policy done away with by an act of congress, not the courts. and lost in this are the human beings directly affected by this every day. now gays and lesbians continue to serve secretly. rachel maddox joins us live in just a minute. first an exclusive interview that she was granted with two active fighter pilots forced to hide their identity because of

don't ask, don't tell. >> you are an f-16 fighter pilot, multiple deployments, including combatç missions in iraq. you've got not only a very impressive military career behind you, you have what seems to be a very impressive military career ahead of you. why is it important for you to talk about this now? >> i think the reason why now is i've seen us come so close with don't ask, don't tell to getting it repealed. it's like the carrot that's there in front of you. can't quite reach it. and you can only sit on the sidelines for so long. tost not in my nature. most military members. it's not in our nature no sit on the sidelines and have someone else fight for us. so i've always wanted to get into the fight and do a little bit more with the constraints

that are obviously in place right now. so that was really important for me to do what i can to put a face on the issue. i know other people have come before me and will come after me to do the same thing. the more people who do that, the harder it is to argue against it. it's easy to be against an idea or to be bigoted against an idea. >> how do you feel about president obama's leadership on the issue? >> lacking, to be straight forward. it's frustrating to see so much emphasis. it is an important issue. the health care issue was important. i was glad to see it get through. he showed leadership there and really did a lot to get very difficult bill through.

we hear the words. it's frustrating to not see any true action from the white house on this issue. pressuring congress and senate, especially when the defense authorization bill was voted onto not see the president come out and really throw his support behind it and to try to pressure the senate to act on it. so it's frustrating. >> in light of this ruling yesterday. is thereç something that if yo could wave a magic wand. if you could make a policy decision for the white house, what would you like to see the president do? >> instruct his justice department to not appeal the decision. once -- once that is done, i hate to use the word pandora's box, but that's open. regardless of what happens in 2012 with the presidential

elections, if we will have gone two years without don't ask, don't tell, you can't put it back in the box. >> rachel maddox joins me here in studio tow talk about this. thanks for doing this. >> happy to do it. thanks. >> let's talk about these two guys coming to speak about this. there were two f-16 fighter pilots you spoke about. how hard was it for them food this interview and also there will be more people like them? >> you know, it was so interesting to have these interviews scheduled on the day that nobody knows what the policy means. we are hearing a lot from people who are advocates for gay people in the military. from gay people in the military themselves that are closeted, that people were coming out. there was chaos. people thought the policy had been stopped. we did an interview with these two brave acttive duty combat experienced fighter pilots, and it became very clear, and it was sort of very shocking stark moment when we all realized as a production team, there was no

chance these guys can come into the light, literally that we can turn the lights on. they need to stay in shadow or they're risking the careers. there's confusion about it, but it's not on hold. these guys are making a brave decision to talk about who they are, because they're fed up, but they can't come out without getting fired. >> the part that broke my heart was when he talked about his partner undergoing an operation. and his partner heart stopped on the table and had to be paddled back to life. he didn't know about it. >> very dangerous time. no way of being notified. >> so the judge's decision means the policy is now suspended. it's in limbo, what? >> don't ask, don't tell is influx right now. it's interesting. you heard the fighter pilot there say what i want is for the president to not appeal the ruling. to have the justiceç departmen let the ruling stand. and it seems pretty clear that the justice department is going to appeal, but it's weird. it's at least interesting they

haven't already. everybody expected they would instantaneously. it hasn't happened. everybody is sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop. are they going to appeal? almost certainly. but it's not as black and white as we sort of thought it is. today we started to see commentary that it's possible the administration could appeal, but also say, listen, we don't want one federal court judge to make the decision for the whole country. it ought to go to the ninth circuit. maybe it should go to the supreme court. we are appealing it so it goes to a different court. but we, the obama administration, think it is unconstitutional. sort of a grey area between appealing or not appealing. and there is precedent for other administrations doing that. actually a military policy that the clinton administration passed congress. clinton administration felt it was unconstitutional. a judge struck it down. in the clinton administration they did that. they said, we're appealing. but we think the court should tell us that. it's really influx. it's clear that it's still not

safe to come out. what's not clear is how the policy ends. >> right. and secretary gates has said all along that he would prefer to wait until the pentagon report is done and they come out with their results coming up on december 1st. >> that's right. >> why not wait until then? >> what happens then? so the defense department does this very comprehensive intensive survey of what it would be like to repeal the policy. that's due in 48 days. the justice department has 60 days to decide whether or not to appeal. so both of the time lines are running up on each other. and the plan that the administration had all along with the defense zeept is they will do this study. then once the study comes out, the senate will vote to repeal the policy. the problem with that is the administration may not do anything. nobody can count on the senate doing anything. at this point the senate can't be count counted onto tie their own shoes showing up for work. so the idea that everything hinges on the senate repealing it really bothers advocates.

it doesn't sound like a real plan if the plan is for john mccain to see the light. can this happen without the senate repealing it? it's hard to see. the defense department study is coming ut onç december 1st. everybody believes they will say it is possible. >> it's been 17 years. you would think they could compile some information. >> also 25 nations allow gay people to serve openly. it's not like we would be doing something that's never been done before. >> what do you have coming up tonight? >> we're going to be doing a little of this. talking about a very interesting piece of the puzzle on the chamber of commerce right. about is talking aren't foreign funding getting boo the attack ads. the issue of whether or not the foreign sources are funding for the chamber of commerce want to outsource american jobs, putting a giant exclamation point on that political point. >> okay. lean forward with me. >> lean forward. >> good to see you. see you tonight. @ president of chile says the san jose mine will never

open again, and he vows someone will be punished for this. but the big question on everybody's minds is what will happen to the miners now. as the begin begin their book, movie deals pouring in, it could spark paydays to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars a piece. natalie morales has been closely following the story. she joins us from chile with more on this. natalie, i understand you got an up close look at the fenix 2 capsule. did you climb in this, or were you observing from the outside? >> reporter: unfortunately it was turned on its side and it weighs like a thousand pounds. so there was no way for me to climb inside. i did ask, though, believe me. it's fascinating, i think, the technology of what went into in effort. it really was a super human effort to really make sure that everything worked smoothly. for that very reason in just 22

hours they had a completely successful operation. it was really remarkable to watch one by one by one as the last miner, luis urzua came out. the celebrations were truly something to behold. it was amazing being here for it. >> the doctors, what are they saying about the men's conditions? are they all in good health? >> reporter: they're -- they're in the hospital still. there's going to be a news conference later on the this evening. about it will individual status. but they say their conditions are normal. when i did the tour of the mine shaft area, i also went into the triage area. they had a big white board with all the names listed. every single vital statistic up on the board. and everything read normal, normal, normal. you looked at all the stats. none seemed to be presenting with shrews.

so there reports of some having issues with sleep. obviously so much adrenaline. you can imagine the squur knee up in the capsule and the last 70 days, what that must have done to their sleep pattern. a lot of them experiencing anxiety as well. and there's the whole adjustment period. returning back to what is certainly a very extraordinary new life for them. so their lives change dramatically. one problem , we hear one miner is experiencing depression. we don't know the exact condition. waiting to find out more later this evening. >> yes or no, have you gotten any sleep? >> reporter: about four hours in four days. >> well, you look fantastic. >> i'm with them through the end. >> we look forward to getting i don't care getting you back

here. >> you can see more of the story i'm doing tonight on nightly news on the technology and the tour of the mine shaft. and the -- all of the technological aspects of this rescue, which were really super human. >> we're see you tonight on nightly news. you know the saying the devil is in the details. next, how the little details and a lot of paperwork may be raining hell on families fighting foreclosure. i do a lot of different kinds of exercise,

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looking for signs of stability in the housing market? not happening. near lly 240,000 homes were foreclosed on. all 50 states have joined together to investigate this. dylan ratigan, host of "the dylan ratigan show" has been hosting this story. he joins us to talk about this. let's go over the numbers. the banks seized more than 1,600 homes for the first nine months of this year. they're on pace to seize 1.2 million by the end of 2010. we all thought this was over with. >> here's the problem. the foreclosures that came from the subprime lending that we're all familiar with were processed years ago. >> okay. >> what we're seeing now is a much bigger wave of foreclosure ls coming in because of the unemployment problem in the

country over the past few years that was caused by the original risk taking on wall street. so the tragedy here is the government's failure of job creation is now what is driving the explosion and the number of fore closures we're getting. >> what about the allegations that banks evicted people without reading the documents. they had the phrase burger king kits. young kids, upstarts coming in, maybe not understanding what they're doing. but these people are losing their roofs. >> they're ealss that clerly warrant more investigation.ç we would be remiss not to offer applause to the attorney general launching the investigation where the federal government refused to. the most interesting aspect of all of this is why are the banks so desperately trying to process these foreclosures without having to present paperwork, without having to go to court?

the only reason with this level of desperation, doing all this back door work is because you are trying to cover up for the fact that, in my opinion, and many share the opinion, that what you're foreclosing on is a loan that was never properly created in the first place sen is now stuck in the gut of the u.s. government. the only way to find out how bad and how deep this goes into the halls of our government and to the top of the banks is by allowing the foreclosure process to demand chain of command so i can know with that particular loan ended up in the government fraudule fraudulently. both the government and the banks don't want to answer the question. >> worry about the governments. worry about the banks. they've got money. the people being foreclosed on. the ones unemployed? what is their recourse. >> a housing standpoint, go to a website called

wheresthenote.com. you say, i want to see the me. this is in a very obtainable document and one the banks are having a hard time illustrating and that is where this will put the pressure on our government to really deal with the core corruption in our housing market. >> you have someone koling up that really personalizes this. we have to go to break, but they are family struggling. >> a family, nine kids, six adopted, evicted from their home while in the middle of a foreclosure proceeding. they were never able to go to court. the bank said they were negotiating. they were evicted and the house was sold by the bank, but they never had the foreclosure process. so, the family came in, changed the locks and moved back in. the mother joins us at 4:00. >> thanks. >> absolutely. a pleasure to see!çyou. >> up next, you'll find out what's making headlines. stay with us.

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federal prosecutors say the drugstore change cvs will face millions in fines for allowing customers to buy a key meth amphetamine ingredient. the ingredient is used to make meth. the chain will also forfeit about $2.6 million in profits from the drug. the company's ceo says they have worked to fix that problem. the state department says stay on alert. they are still warning u.s. citizens to take precaution in europe. the plot centers on using weapons similar to the deadly shooting spree in mumbai, india.

the advisory issued last month is one step above a travel advisory. and the troubled rapper turned hero in atlanta. hip hop star t.i. says he was on his way to a video shoot when he heard a man threatening to jump off a building. he taped a quick message, which was sent to the man on the roof. then the man came down and spoke with t.i. he was safely taken into custy. that is our show this thursday. thanks forç joining me today b before i go, i have to say thanks to my mom. it's take your mom to workday here at msnbc. have a great day. up next is "the dylan ratigan show." stay tuned. ron owns this farm in new

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in their house, changing the locks and vowing to stay put until they get what is theirs. they are live with us. it is a story truly from the front lines of this foreclosure crisis in this country. just part of an expanding and some would say exploding scandal involving our nation's biggest banks, taxpayer dollars by the trillion and politicians of both parties on the take while millions of homeowners struggle. also, bill spouting off. we're all left wondering why so many in this country do not understand what or who we are really fighting when it comes to terrorism in this county tr. also, what's next for those chilean miners? from book deals to graceland, how the 33 are dealing with their newfound global celebrity in