commission has unveiled a proposal for getting rid of the debt. there's enough in it to make everyone mad, including myself. commission cochairs outline deep cuts in both domestic and military spending at 15 cents a gallon increase in the gasoline tax, eliminating mortgage tax deductions, and increasing the retirement age for social security. that brought a stiff and swinging rebuke from nancy pelosi who said this proposal is simply unacceptable. and for our children and grandchildren's economic security as well as for our nation's fission call security, and it must do what is right for our seniors, who are counting on the bedrock promises of social security and medicare. president obama is still traveling overseas. that doesn't stop him from suggesting everybody take a step back before taxing the proposal.

>> before nip starts shooting down proposals we need to listen. we need to gather the facts. i set this up because i'm prepared to make tough decisions. i can't make them alone. i'm going to need congress to work with me. >> now, it's also important to note the one group that was not asked to sacrifice that much in the proposal is the top income bracket and corporate america. taxes would rise on the middle class, but the top income rate would get cut down to 23%. now joining us is the cofounder of the progressive change committee. the president is asking for for patients looking at the proposals. are you going to give him that patience or no? >> i think people have been pretty patient the last two years, and democrats lost last week specifically because

president obama and democrat leaders didn't fight hard enough. like the public option. and like social security. we need him to be out there like nancy pelosi and say cuts to social security would be unacceptable. >> if he agrees to cut social security and medicare. -- i know this is a big statement, but do you think this is the last straw for progressives. are you guys going to say, that's it? we can't support this guy anymore? >> is it possible to have more? i feel like we've been down the road so many times. and so many times democratic voters and obama-voting independent voters were told trust us, trust us. there's a master plan in the works. we'll get everything involved in the end. social security the most popular and the most successful shaping of the program e we can't allow it to be cut. just yesterday we announced some poll results of last week's

republican skewed electorate. and even among them when asked what is the best way to reduce the deficit, over 40% of the people said tax the rich more. 20% said cut wasteful spending. and 12% said cut social security. we need president obama to fight instead of caving to the republican demands. >> a lot of people will say there's pain for everybody. you're not going to get off free in the priorities. we have some tax increases in there. can't you go along on this? and if you don't don't, they're going to paint you as unreasonable. how do you respond to that? >> well, look, we can't operate in kind of a fictional world where today's two top stories are unrelated. on one hand we have president obama being silent, and on the other hand, cnn and hufington post are reporting that the president is prepared to cave on

taking on bush's tax cuts for the top 1%. that would be $700 billion. i think it's reasonable to say before you think about cutting social security take on these bush tax cuts. next up, wasteful military spending. then talk to us about social security. we have the increased gasoline price. the increased t eincreased. they take away the home mortgage deduction and lower the top rate to 23%. i thought they were supposed to balance the budget here. isn't that counter productive? that is in favor of the rich again with this proposal. >> yeah, absolutely. what we're seeing here is compromise for compromise's own sake, even when it's unreasonable compromise. we need president obama to understand in order to win a political fight, in order to win a narrative fight, you have to

be willing to fight and draw contrasts. if thea means he has to stand up for social security and stand up for 98% of the american taxpayers who would benefit, then do it. it's okay to step on republican toes. in the last hour alone today, about 10,000 people have gone to our website, boldprogressives.org telling president obama to fight, not cave. that will go quite up in the hours to come. >> adam green, thank you for joining us. >> thank you. now the headaches continue to mount for the obama white house senior adviser david axelrod is denying a report that president obama is going to cave on extending the tax cuts for the wealthy. after saying he didn't want to trade away security for the middle class, meaning he may compromise on tax cuts for the rich, he now says, kwoetd, we're willing to discuss how we move forward. but we believe it's imperative to extend the tax cuts for the middle class and don't believe we can afford a permanent

expansion of the tax cuts for the wealthy. that sounds good. but notice he says a permanent extension. which means they're definitely open to extending the tax cuts for the rich at least temporarily. we appear to be where we were before with the white house ready to compromise, or buckle, depending on your perspective. for more perspective, let's bring in michael scherer. he writes habit the white house grappling with a new reality. also joan walsh, the editor in chief at salon. michael, let me start with you. is it a compromise or a buckle? >> you can call it a buckle if you want, but it's admitting the reality of the situation. if obama had done better, if democrats had done better in the midterm election, they could come back with a different set of abilities. right now the democratic caucus in the senate is not holding together. i just heard adam speak about

obama needing to fight republicans. he has to fight his own party. there are three or four members of the democratic caucus who bolted from him on this issue. >> believe me, i think he's willing to fight members of his own party, which i'm not sure about the president. jo joan, what do you think about that? is this the new political reality? >> no. it's the old political reality. the reality is he never did have 60 votes. so he's always been having to try to lure or cajole or grab the conservative democrats. it's always been tough. the thing frustrating progressives today is there doesn't seem to be a fight. obama admitted to one one mistake where he said looking back at the stimulus, maybe i should have held off on tax

cuts. use them to lure republican votes. how about compromising? how about leading with a fight. and then forcing other people to come to you. or at least telling american people the truth. good-bye. it's a massive cave-in. people are furious, and they should be. >> can you seem how it may sheem to some as a preemptive surrend surrender? then, okay, you win. what am i going to do? i'll give you a year's worth of tax cuts for rich. when you say in the beginning i'm going to give it to you, it seems like you're conceding far too early at the least. >> what the white house is doing is playing to the center. they see the midterm election results as a swing of independents from 2008 to 2010.

and they're trying to reposition the president going into next year as the person fighting for the middle class and fighting above partisan labels and fighting above party, and fighting to actually help the american people going forward. if you look at david axelrod's quote, he says the important thing is to make sure the middle class doesn't have their taxes increase. that is the meet cleaver that's hanging over the debate. if they're not able to to come to a compromise everyone will have their taxes increased. that's where the pressure for compromise comes from. >> but if he did fight, he could turn around and blame it on the republicans. it always seems there's a disarmorment. >> michael, you know i love you. michael and i work together. but this is the way he came into office. he saw his mandate from the beginning. a mandate to change the tone and to change washington. maybe he was somewhat right about that progressives alone

did not elect him. a lot of independents he lost. they were independent in name only. they were republicans scandalized by the bush administration, and predictably they went home. you look at this electorate this time around in 2010, he lost a lot of people, especially young people who came out for him in 2008. if they want to play with the same set of voters and want to fight and not expand the electorate and not play to their base and basically be republican-like. that's a recipe for disaster for the country and for the democrats. >> i'm not sure they can span that electorate much. it brought tons of people to the polls. they're hoping to retain them. they can't loose the base. but they see it as a battle for the middle. right now you see republicans on the hill playing to their base. and talking tough. i do think republicans will have to come to the negotiating table

as well. >> michael, i have to ask you one last question in regards to that. i feel that washington often including the obama white house makes the mistake of thinking the middle of the country is where the middle of washington is. the middle of washington is go towards the republicans, concede on the tax cuts, et cetera. if you look at the polls, the one adam just quoted where people are like, hell no don't cut social security. hell no, enough with the tax cuts on the rich. 70% want the public option. obama is going to the center of washington. >> the polls on the tax cut to the rich are split 40/60 depending on how you ask the question. nobody wants you to take anything away from them. they're fine if you take money from the other guy. just don't take money away from me because social security is so broadly based, you're going to get polls like that.

so people are going to lose things. if first line of the report that came out yesterday from the cochair of the deficit commission is this is going to be painful. so for this to be done well or successfully everybody is going to have to feel some pain. that's where obama is as well. >> except for the rich. >> investment bankers can work until 70. >> it turns out the rich are the ones that wind up with the biggest prize. i can't believe that happened. michael scherer and joan walsh, great conversation. thank you, guys. we have new developments in the cia case. is someone going to go after the cia? that's interesting. plus, if you've ever signed a cell phone contract or any contract, we have a story you don't want to miss. this on msnbc. wall street is getting back on its feet. but the financial landscape is still full of uncertainty.

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there's a new twist in the investigation of the missing the interrogation tapes. yesterday we got news the justice department would not open a case with the cia for destroying the tapes. if you thought they would get away with destroying evidence, we've now learned the case may be reopened. there's a new case to find out what happened and who is responsible for the destruction of some 92 videos showing waterboarding of terror suspects. michael isikoff is an msnbc news correspondent. always a pleasure to have you on, michael. tell us what changed now. what happened since yesterday in this case? >> well actually when the

destruction of the tapes was first revealed in the end of 2007, the national archives wrote the cia a letter reminding it that there's a pesky thing called the federal records act, which forbids federal agencies from destroying any material of documentary value without getting the national archives permission. the national archives are the country's librarians. there's no question that documentary material under the federal records act is defined broadly to include material regardless of physical form or characteristics that includes video. and the national archives said you never got our permission to destroy this. what's up, cia? they wrote back saying we really can't answer because there's a criminal investigation going on, and we'll let you know when that's over. well, this week, the justice department announced that that

criminal investigation was over. to the national archives said sure enough this is back on the radar screen. we're not going to let this matter drop. it depends to suppress the cia and demand answers as to how it complied with the federal records act. >> michael, why did the justice department drop the case in the first place? i can't remember a case more clear destruction of evidence. well the special council appointed by the last -- he spent three years on this. he was focused on whether or not it could be proven that this material was wanted in a criminal case in an ongoing legal proceeding.

if it can be shown that the cia officials knew that and did so deliberate rattly to conceal the tapes from that legal proceeding, he may have a criminal case. we don't know what he found, all we know is the justice department announced this week it was not grounds for bringing criminal charges. >> michael, can i be cynical here and wonder if the bush appointee ran out the clock so the statute of limitations would be over after those three years? >> well, it is worth pointing out that the bush appointee, john burr ham, a career prosecutor has worked for the last two -- almost two years for eric holder, the democratic attorney general appointed by president obama. he had to report on what he was up to and what his findsinings e to eric holder. the justice department in washington made the announcement. >> michael, you're very right about that. eric holder and barack obama are the same people saying we're never going to look backwards. if you commit ad crime in the

past, you're free to go. at least if you're in the bush administration. so they seem to have a cthe sam interests there. >> president obama made that clear early on that they haven't been aggressive on that front. we do not want to look backwards. i hate it, but it would be funny if it applied to other crimes. i rob ad bank yesterday, but don't look back. just forward. that was yesterday. aclu has an interesting point with bush. they say he admit a war crime. is there any chance they take up prosecution? >> no. the aclu wanted to go on record on this point in light of president bush's book that where he acknowledges for the first time that he did approve

waterboarding. as a practical matter, absolutely not. holder made it clear that that conduct that was authorized by justice department lawyers, however flawed they were is not going to be the subject of a criminal investigation. >> thank you as always. 4,500 cruise passengers and crew getting back to dry land. next up, the untold stories behind carnival's cruise ship saga. on your next business trip, pack your marriott rewards visa card. get triple points every time you use your card at marriott. apply now and earn 22,500 bonus points when you use your card and enjoy a free night stay. so, before you know it, work time becomes well-deserved downtime. apply now at marriott.com/freenightstay. you've got staying power.

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passengers who were trapped at sea for four days without hot food or air-conditioning are back on land. carnival splendor docked on san diego bay hours ago. stephanie stanton joins me live from san diego now. what are we hearing from the passengers there? are they happy they won't be eating spam anymore, and how mad were they that they didn't get their buffet? >> reporter: well, you know they

were pretty upset about that. they did eat spam, although it was like little spam sausages. surprisingly the mood is upbeat despite what the folks have been through. you can see the ship. it hit the dock here around 8:30. the disembarking process began around 9:30 local time. some people reunited with friends and family here at the port of san diego. others will be put on buses and taken back to the port of long beach just a couple of hours north of here. that's where the ill fated cruise ship first set sail. so the journey is not over for some. >> right, and i know they had to deal with these are they willing to go back on another cruise? >> reporter: i know. right. i don't know how many of them will be running to sign up, but i can tell you that carnival

that has really reached out to these foams. they're offering a full refund. also refunds for air transportation, ground transportation, and they are giving them a voucher for a full cruise. i don't know. would you do it? >> it depends how good the buffet is. as you can tell, i'm a little b obsessed with the buffet. we appreciate it. >> take a look pat what you have saved on your dvr. you'll hear what it says about your political allegiance. which shows do conservatives watch more? and nancy pelosi under pressure. what's her next move? will she stay or will she go? 3q (vet) i love working with animals,

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30 minutes left in the trading day. right now we see the dow down almost 80 points. the s&p down 5.6 points and the nasdaq down more than 23 points. and rates on new fixed mortgages have dropped to new lows. the average rate fell to 4.17% last week. that's the lowest on record dating back to 1971. and it seems americans may be getting green fatigue. sales of products like environmentally friendly cleaners have tapered off. and sales of other items that aren't so sustainable, like bottled water, are growing. cenk, back to you. >> now a story we talked about at length yesterday. he priestly announced that the controversial talk show host would be his chief of staff in washington.

yesterday he released a statement saying it is with deep regret that this congressional office and the people of cd 22 will not have joyce kaufman as my chief of staff. why the change? was it the fact that she had been quoted about illegal immigrants saying this -- if you commit a crime while you're here, we should hang you and send your body back to where your came from, and your family should pay for it. one could only hope that's why she was relieved of duty. ironically she's the one being sent back home now. now one of the essential questions facing the white house and the democrats in congress is whether they can feed some issues to the republicans or stick to their guns. nbc news washington bureau chief mark whitaker joins us to talk about which direction they're leaning. we discussed which direction they should lean. are they in a fighting mood or conceding mood? >> we won't know until the president is back from asia from the trip he's on. but the fact is right now it

looks like he probably doesn't have the support that he's going to need to not eventually have to compromise on this issue, this immediate issue of the tax cuts. probably there will be an extension for everybody for a couple of years. the real question is if the president concedes on that or whether he bargains and what concessions he'll get from the republicans if he does compromise. >> you mention a really good point. how does this work? we've had a lot of congressmen and representatives on the show, this show over the week say, no, we want to fight. the list goes on and on. so obviously the progressives want him to fight. how does that play into the president's decision making?

>> well, they're doing what people do here in washington. they know at the end of the day they may have to compromise. has to are the same people holding off for the health care bill. when they couldn't get what they wanted they voted for the plan anyway. the real question is how is the president going to negotiate? will he come back and try to stake out a middle ground before the progressives on one hand but also republicans are staking out the more, sort of hard-lined positions knowing eventually they may have to compromise. one of the things to keep in mind here, cenk, is that a couple of the newly elected democrat democratic narts who will be coming immediately during the lame duck session from west virginia. joe manchin and from connecticut chris coons. they've already come out and said they're in favor of tax cuts for everybody.

that complicates the president's arithmetic even in his own party. >> half the blue dogs got wiped out, so they may be in a fighting mood. but when you go go over to the senate side, i think the president may be right that the senators are not in the mood to fight the republicans at this point. so you you get the sense they're saying, okay, just give them the tax cuts. >> i think there's a lot of points of view there. with the leaders of deficit commission having put forward some of their proposals. whether the president really uses this as an opportunity to leapfrog everybody essentially and come out very strongly in terms of what he thinks an ul mat plan would be to solve the long-term problem, not just to get through the immediate issue of the bush tax cuts by the end of the year. that's going to require sacrifice and compromise on

everybody's part, but it would also allow the president to call the republicans on their bluff. the fact is they campaigned as deficit cutters, as people who think that the size of the federal government has gotten too big, and our deficits and debt has gotten too big. if you just extend the tax cuts, even some of the spending cuts that they are talking about don't come near to balancing the budget. it just adds to the deficit. the president could play the grown-up in the situation and basically call both sides on the ways in which the math doesn't add up. we'll see if he's preprepared to do that. >> that's a great point. but i would love to play president obama in poker. my guess is he ain't going to call no bluffs. he's going to fold. >> his approach so far is fight amongst yourselves, work it out, and come to me with your ideas and the plan that you negotiate. i think we're in a phase now

after the midterms when he can't afford to do that. if he wants his point of view of prevail, he needs to come out more strongly at the beginning of the negotiations saying what he ultimately wants. >> that's exactly right. i haven't seen him do that too much. i have to ask you one last question about nancy pelosi. she says she's staying. we have 15 house democrats saying they want her to go. how does that play out? is it a smart move for pelosi to say, no, we're going to stand the ground, or will that hurt the cause? >> cenk, first of all, you said it right there. there's only 15 people who have been willing to come out publicly and say they would oppose her staying on as the minority leader. this is a more liberal caucus now. and she has their support certainly on the progressive wing, but also remember in washington and in politics,

money talks. she's been a big fund-raiser if a lot of the house democrats. she will continue i think even in a weakened position to be a strong fund-raiser. they owe her a lot. ultimately she'll clearly have the votes, and if she wants to stay on, she can. >> another really good point. thank you for joining us. that's mark wihitaker. a new study says the way you vote may offer a clear indication of what you watch on tv. steven is joining me live in the studio here first of all. let's take a look. thank you for joining us. let's look at the list. i'm amused and entertained by the top five. so for the republican shows we have number one, glenn beck. i don't think anybody is surprised. number two is the amazing race.

number three is modern family, which i love. and number four "american idol" and number five "v." and for the liberal list, the democratic list we have countdown with keith olbermann, boo-yah. madmen, dexter. kourtney and khloe take miami. and 90210. >> these are not the most popular shows. they're looking -- this survey looked at the audience of the show and then the concentration of democrats and republicans watching the show. the audience would probably break down among the same lines people identify themselves as a republican or democrat today. that's why modern family is on that list. modern family, one of the couples on that show is a gay couple with an adopted daughter.

yet it's the number three show with republicans. it's a big, broad show and just as many democrats like it as republican republicans. >> right. but they did get the numbers from somewhere. there's a lot of interesting shows on the conservative list. a lot are racy. two of and a half men at the conservative show at 15. they're always talking about charlie sheen's hookers and stuff. >> with all do respect, the only time a viewer thinks about the politics when turning on the tv set is whether to watch fox news or nbc. the rest of the time they want to be entertained. it's a funny show. it doesn't have to reflect their values. they just want to laugh when they watch ha show like that. >> and i want to be clear. i didn't mean to say liberals like hookers more than conservatives if that's the way it came out. >> they're probably split down

the middle there, too. >> especially if you look at senators who have been caught. it may lean more republican lately. does it say something about me that i like the shows on the conservative list? >> it says nothing about you. >> you're not buying it. >> well, the study wasn't done by our publication. if you look at the popular shows, obviously keith. more democrats will watch his show. a show like "madmen" and "dexter", they're probably popular in big cities with a younger audience. people a little more progressive and open minded. >> i watched that kardashian show for about five minutes, and it almost made my head explode. that may be on the wrong list. thank you for joining us. >> my pleasure. now onto another conversation. a $30 cell phone dispute between a california couple and at&t,

and it made its way all the way to the supreme court. the financial stakes are huge on both sides of the case. the financial decision from the courts could affect the rights of anyone who signs or distributes contracts with fine print, from cell phones to credit cards and even employment contracts. we all sign those contracts. what rights will we have against the big companies? pete williams is joining me live from washington. for the average consumer, why is this complicated court case so important to us? >> because it depends on what rights you have as a consumer to sue if you think you've been defrauded. this involves a california couple who signed up for cell phone service for at&t. they wanted to take advantage of the offer for the free phone, but when they got the bill, they found $30 in sales taxes on the supposedly free phone. so they filed a class action lawsuit accusing at&t of fraud.

now here's the issue. when they signed the agreement to buy the phone, they also signed a contract -- krr common now. and in the fine print it says my disputes have to be resolved outside of court, not through class action. so they waived the right to file a class-action lawsuit. they are much more common for phones, products like credit cards and employment contracts. so the supreme court has to decide whether federal law prevents a state from declaring these invalid. they argue class action lawsuits are the only way to police corporate misconduct because it's hard to find a lawyer to take a case for $30. they want a case when they can sue on the big customers. but these basically benefit the lawyers who get big fees, but individual customers only get a little. they say arbitration can actually give customers very

generous settlements. >> pete, though. if the class action lawsuits are taken away, realistically, there's no way a customer like me, you, or anybody watching can sue at&t because the lawyer won't take the case. doesn't that end the question? >> it doesn't end the legal question. you're raising the policy issue and the technical legal question is whether federal -- to go to arbitration. 10 you can take your claim to arbitration and, in fact, that hasn't been used very much with at&t, which basically changed the arbitration rules after this case was first started gives you the opportunity to get quite a bit of money, actually. up to $7,500 would be the cap in this case. at&t says that's a lot of money over a $30 telephone.

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does anyone really need a sitting room in their home? how about a breakfast nook? probably not. the last one sounds really lovely. in the past 20 years these extras became standard beating out the once quaint desire of a white picket fence and a home to call your own. now the american dream is on a diet, the mcmansion is dead. long live the mcvalue menu. cindy, first of all did anybody ever use a sitting room to actually sit? >> it's a great point, cenk.

we don't need formal china platters. we don't need sitting rooms. we don't need that level of formality. my friend sarah made it best. we're not having the king and queen of england to diner. we're having joe and kathy from next door. >> and the sitting room doesn't have a tv, so what's the point of it? we're also talking about going towards the future here. unfortunately a lot of people don't have as much money. is that the main reason or among the reasons? >> i think it's a couple of reasons. money is certainly a big part of it. but the other thing is we're just realizing that our lifestyles are changing. we don't have much time in our home. we want to make the time better quality. i don't know about you, but i don't want want to clean six bathrooms. i don't have time for that. >> it's interesting. i read an article about a

russian billionaire. the guy who bought the nets. he said when he had a small apartment he was right next to his kitchen. he's like, god, it takes me a half hour to get to the kitchen. >> it's true. it's really a sign of the times. instead of segments of room, maybe one big room. you figure out how to con figure it. maybe you have a pool table off in the corner instead. also for the next buyers. >> as we're telling you that, we show videos of nice homes and i'm thinking, they look good. >> i think when i see those, i don't have time to clean those. >> i hear you on that. small apartment, not quite as good looking at that. i want to ask you one other thing. is that realistic?

is that what this is partly about? i need a smaller carbon footprint? >> i think that's another point. we are starting to realize when you have a home that big, it costs a lot of money to heat and cool it. it's a lot more efficient if you have a smaller space to heat and cool. and frankly and cool it and frankly, you can do things to make your home more energy efficient. instead of just controlling your lights and stereo, you can control the way your energy is used and take stock of how efficient you are. and also something very futuristic, we may go to a point where we have wind turbines. very interesting. >> my dad gets excited about saving money. like, oh, we've switched to a new system. i saved so much money! i'm sure that has something to do with it. thank you.

next, a congressman asks companies to give up their profits to lower your premiums. and don't miss jon stewart on rachel maddow tonight at 9:00. that should be fantastic. - i volunteered. - i was drafted. - i enlisted. - i was nervous. - and there i was in asia. - europe. - the gulf. - and i saw things. - incredible things. - and people you never forget. - i did my job. - for my country. - my buddies. - for total strangers. - and i was proud. - so grateful. - for my family. - my freedom. for all who served and all who serve, we can never thank them enough. the smartest thing you could do is cut the fuel supply, unlock the doors, and turn on the hazards. or get a car that does it for you. ♪

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one final note today on health care. we were told during the reform effort the insurance companies were doing the best they could, that they had to keep raising our premiums. for the top ten health insurance firms are out for the first three quarters of this year. you're going to be shocked to find they made a great deal of money in profit. didn't see that coming. combined, they made over $9.3 billion in profits. that doesn't count the last

three months of this year. profits went up a whopping 41% in the last year alone. what happened? i thought they were telling us how much they were suffering and how much obama busted them up. it turns out they continue to make money at the phenomenal rate. now, some will say, wait, wait, wait. they're supposed to do that. they're not non-profits. they're supposed to make money. that's right. that's my point. do we want to lead decisions about our health and lives who wants to make money off of us? they get more in profits than taking in money from us than they pay for our care. i'm not sure that makes a lot of sensuous but i know i'd love another option. by the way, pete stark has asked them to return their profits in the form of premium reductions for you guys. what do you think the chances are that's going to happen? not very high.

i'm going to warn you now, don't hold your breath. that's our show for this thursday. i'm cenk uygur. you can catch me on the youngturks.com. dylan's going to talk to dick cabin and his new book. that's going to be really interesting so keep it right here. engine light means. to find an atm. a bff. or a blt. where to stop. where to go. or where to stop when you have to go. and the most amazing part is what happens after you press it. hi, this is jay from onstar. i want to find out where the nearest pizza place is? sure no problem. onstar. safely connecting you in ways you never thought possible. live on.

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good afternoon to you. i am dylan ratigan and today, washington rallies to protect each and every one of their sacred cows from going under the knife. lawmakers and special interests circumstan circling the wagons to save the programs that keep them in office and in the money. we will follow money with jimmy williams. and teaching our troops. we'll highlight a program to help our men and women