uniform trade their rifles for books and get the key tools they need to succeed in a tough civilian economy. all that, plus dick cavett, the man who's seen it all. he's dropping by to talk about his new book and offer his views on politics in the media today. show starts right now. they admit their plan to cut the deficit doesn't have a chance. politicians already plotting the kill. their proposals would slash 4 trillion from deficits over the next decade, but it would be painful and generate countless enemies. the proposals include eliminating the deduction homeowners get and imposing a tax on gas. basically, whatever your

favorite tax break is, forget it. lenders, realtors, big oil, defense contractors, not going to be happy with this sort of a plan. and then there is the big spe spending cuts to the sacred house of medicare, social security and the pentagon's budget. raising the retirement age to 69, as you know, sparking fur yur from unions. >> there are two nonstarters for me and that is social security and medicine tear cuts. >> they don't want the pain, but the pain of destroying the currency is going to be much worse. >> so, can any of these proposals survive the coming assault by the special interests who protect their very existence

by insuring the government accommodates them? jimmy williams here to dissect is kill. seem there's no shortage of special interests who are threatened by a proposal like this. who do you think, which special interest is most alarmed? >> i think they all are. listen, you want to get rid of the mortgage interest deduction. the national association of realtors are going to go nuts over this as they should. you want to raise social security retirement age, aarp is going to go nuts over this, not to mention every old person. no, not every old person, but every middle age person. i don't care about soerl security. everybody is going to go nuts over this stuff. this is politics as usual. the fact they could not get

consensus for this panel means they had to go ahead and issue this report or preliminary report and get it out there so it can be debated. that's all we're going to get from these folks, but politics is unfortunately going to play a role in this. the republicans hates it, democrat hate it. maybe it is right. i don't know. >> you and i were discussing this this morning and the thing that was most striking was your charact characterization of a first step. the future is still to be written, but at least we have opened the door. can you explain a little bit why you see this as so important? >> look, we are -- i'm baffled. you can take a step back out of policy sometimes and look at the playing field. look at what's on the ground. in 2000, we had a massive surplus and we were doing great. we were going to fall into a little bit of a recession, but

we were coming off the glory years. here we are ten years later and we are literally as pe pete peterson, we are in a worm hole and there is going to be no end to this. this commission that the president, which, by the way, created by executive order, is now come out with this and if we don't figure out a way to take -- listen, everybody needs to take cuts. old people, seniors, young people. our veterans, our military, everybody is going to have to pay a price here. and until we get our system fixed, until we balance our budget, then it's always going to be this huge worm hole that we're just spiralling down. you know what? congress did something very interesting. back in 1960s, j.f.k., president kennedy established the first

brack. that's been tinkered with, but they took it out of congress's hands as to where to cut military bases. now, the way the law the written, the commission issues recommendations where to get rid of these bases. goes to congress. if congress doesn't pass a resolution of disapproval saying no within 45 days, it becomes law. perhaps the way to go here is to set up an independent commission filled with former judges, fo former members of congress and real people and let them decide what needs to be cut. spread it evenly. what taxes need to be raised. what spending programs need to be cut. what needs to be frozen. don't let congress decide. and then send that to congress.

they have to vote up or down on it. if they vote it out, the cuts are made. >> i guess the one thing that strikes me though when you look at the ziindictment, the credibility of our government, specifically to its accommodation to very powerful special interests over the past 10 or 20 years, most notably, the trade relationships that exist, the trade deficit beneficial to small groups in this country, arn, also there's plenty of room for criticism in the nature of the financial structure, the taxpayer that does a lot of lending and investment, but provides a lot of profitability for the financial institutions. how does the government allow for some of these major unfairnesses, if you will, to be perpetuated or at least the perception and then maintain any credibility to cut anything from

defense to mortgage interest to social security and isn't that a behavioral economic loser? if you want to cut their social security or mortgage interests while you are perpetuating and or allowing accommodations that exist in certain industries? >> the country has for since 1789 when he established our first mode of government, we have had special interests that no one's denying. but the problem here is what we're talking about is a fiscal situation. our economy is not doing what it needs to be doing. it's not creating the number of jobs it needs to create. granted, economies are cyclical and we understand that, but apt the end of the day, we don't make things in this country

anymore. we've been on a buying spree for ten years, longer than ten years and now, the bill has come due. that's not a democratic or republican thing. that's an american thing. special interests, congress has always listened to special interest and they should because special interest represent congressional constituents, people back home. i represent you know, for example, the motor car racing industry. and they have legitimate needs. everyone loves nascar per se, but the bottom line is that the question is, what are they going to do for their fair share and that means everybody else. the difference between now and the past, we are in two wars. we have a $13 trillion debt right now. $13 trillion. and what are we doing about it? nothing. we didn't do anything about it. we did a stimulus bill which stopped the bleeding, but it was bleeding that it was profuse. we did t.a.r.p., which as bad as

it was, we had to do it. but everybody's got to give here. everybody's got to share the pain and that includes members of congress, everybody across the board. >> i'm with you, jim. thanks for the insight following the money truly for us. before we wrap this up and as we hear both sides yell a, i can't emphasize how important it is to keep the draft idea in perspective. while these ideas may be some of the toughest we've seen in cent memory, that's not to say they're even close enough to be able to get us out of the deep hole we're in. it's also the money that we have promised to spend, but hasn't yet hit the books. those trillions, the number

reaches a whopping $7.7 trillion. that is 70 thousand billion dollars in total unfunded liableties worth five times the value of our economy in the past year. in proportion, bring it back up. it's easy to see that even cutting $4 trillion, which is that little clip at the bottom over the next ten years does not even come close to fixing the problems this country faces. more importantly, a debate solely centered around what to cut ignores the bigger and more dangerous issue. it is true that we do not have enough money to fill this deficit bucket here, but if we ignore the structural problems that lead us to overspend in the first place, we'll continue to pour more and more money into a bucket with a giant hole in it.

cutting is fine. but to do so while ignoring the multitrillion dollar trade and financial extraction represented only in part by the $140 billion bonus pool on wall street, a taxpayers subsidized industry, not to mention the gross inefficiency in everything from health care to education, is an inadequate and dare i say false solution. only through ending the extraction and demanding a system of investment and problem solving that will not only solve for our inefficiencies and end the bleeding, but will create jobs in the process. with a hole that big, i believe that is the only way to climb out. 3q what's up ? ugh. my feet are killin' me.

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make some tough decisions. i can't make them alone. i'm going to need congress to work with me. i think we have to be straight with the american people. >> well, president obama today at the g-20 summit talking about the debt panel proposals which have sent lawmakers and special interests scrambling and try and kick the can that is the 70 trillion in unfunded liableties and wait for the currency or bond market to make it worse. now, while it's true the president can't do it by himself, he does need congress. it's also true that only the commander in chief has the stat chur to lead on this issue, that

will require this level of collaboration and duration to deal with. it might take a democratic to push through these tough choices, but absent the p president strong enough to stand up to the extracting special interests in this country that are the trade and financial industries among others. i'm not sure how much the cutting matters. whoever the leader is, we may need a nixon goes to china or a clinton reforms welfare from obama in order to address the extractors and address the sacred cows at the same time. where is the president's fire side chat on america's debt. where is this president standing with his bull horn on the rubble of our economy vowing to make it right by ending the financial speculation and resurrecting a culture of investment, education and innovation in america.

here with us, chris kofinis and brett littlefield. chris, the level of complexity and stakes for this country have never been higher. where should the american people be looking to for leadership and what could this president do to step up to provide that? >> well, i think the american people are doing to look to the president. talking about national issues, he's the president of the united states. this is where the white house has to make tough decisions, both on the tax cuts and on deficits and be willing to fight even if they lose those battles. i think part of the problem here with this white house and you saw that before the elections, you don't necessarily know where they stand on these issues. you're seeing that now on the tax cuts and it's driving me

bananas. i don't know for the compromise, against, for the extension, against the extension. that is frustrating the american people. this is going to require both sides to be real grown-ups. what we can't, i think we do not want, although i'm afraid this is where we're heading. the prime minister, center left candidate, never thought of doing the cuts he had to do, washingto walks in there in an economic cat claz. i just hate to -- reality that is going to force those cuts. >> let's put the actual problem in context. we spend more than anybody in the world on health care.

we spend more on education and despairty and quality of education is massive. the inefficients of our power facilities are embarrassingly low. we have a wide -- almost an absurd tax code when you look at the variety of loopholes. on and on and on. and what we're getting is a conversation about things we've got to cut. whether it's defense, social security, farm subsidies. i'm not saying whether those are should, shouldn't be cut. what i am saying is facing $70 trillion in unfunded liableties and understanding that we spend vast sums of money to get a relative pit ens, that it goes to the functioning of the government. are we kids ourselves to try to

solve this country's problems by austerity when it's going take major structural change and innovation that will drop costs to even give us a chance. >> well, i think the key thing that we all need to be talking about today is we need to start somewhere. there will be a new congress showing up here in town. democrats and republicans. new members to get trained and get prepared to lead. i think they're coming to town with some new ideas. fresh ideas. i'm excited and hopeful they'll provide some strength from the people to say we have to make some tough choices and need to start somewhere. we do need some leadership from the president. he is the person, whoever that may be, he or she, that provides the budget to congress. we need to get together and cut back. if we can just get started with

some sim l thing, maybe it's not spending the rest of the money that was earmarked to spend on the stimulus plan. just something where we can start to cut back, then people can come together and make tougher choices down the road, but it has to get started. you've got to get that ball rolling. that rock rolling down the hill. >> but chris, aren't they obliged to deal with the extraction. when you look at the record, when you look at the size of the profitability for the industries that are long china, caterpil r caterpillar, et cetera. not that it's caterpillar's fault. they face a situation where it's much cheaper to make the tractor in china and pay the tariff to export it. how can you talk about cutting if you're not talking about ending some of the real obvious unfairness. >> you have to -- it gets so complex and difficult to

understand especially for the average american. you have to go back to the basics. the basic to me, this is again, where the white house has the responsibility to communicate, what is the economic vision for this country for the future. how are we going to make these structural changes and clearly our obligations as a country to various people. whether it's veterans, senior, students, et cetera. i think we've got -- have a real honest discussion about where we want to take the country and i think part of what personally i'm frustrated with this debt commission report. the obligation was for them to come up with a consensus. here's the irony. how are you going to be consensus among members of congress when you couldn't get it with individuals on a debt commission. this is part of the problem here. we have to be really honest here about what the stakes are, the implications are for this country. we are at a very critical point in this country's history when

it comes to the choices and decisions we have to make and whether we like it or not, we're going to have to make them. those aren't always going to be fun decisions. it's going to upset a lot of people on different sides of the al, but they've got to be made for the future of the country. >> brent, who do you trust the most? i don't mean which political party. when you look at all the actors and agencies that are going to have a voice on this, where do you see reliability in an individual politician or institution so that as we begin this process, we can try to focus on those who are the least politicized and try to offer an honest assessment in the biggest context. >> i don't think you can really trust one person or institution or even a group of them. i think the old reagan phrase about trust but verify falls into this. you need some really smart people to go digging.

it's high time that we just don't make simple changes at the top. i got to tell you, from working on capitol hill, i spent a short time many years ago, even then, it amazed me how complicated this government is. you'd be amazed at the amount of p paper that flows there there and the ability for a member of congress, their staffs, to get a handle on how much is being spent is almost mind boggles and mind blowing. i think we need to start to dig in deeper and go down to the lowest level. maybe we need a multitude of commissions and say, where can we eliminate programs, things we needed decades ago that are not longer needed and where can we consolidate these things. i don't think it can be done in just a simple manner. i think it's going to take some real hard work and i am hopeful

we can have some level heads. >> in addition, absent financial system that lends and invests money in our country, period, and an educational system that provides the education necessary to address the problems we're discussing. the inefficiencies in energy, health care and education, it would seem a daunting task. i thank you for taking the task up and continuing your efforts to help us understand it better. on tomorrow's show, new mexico's senator. one of the fiery freshmen leading the charge of the filibuster and try to address what many see as a broken system in the senate. but first, what a long, strange trip it has been for carnival splendor. the cruise ship lost at sea finally makes it home. ah, this t what the eight layers needed. hey guys. sorry we're late.

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the stranded ship was finally dragged in. it came ashore after an engine fire left them without electricity not to mention the pool and casino were out of the commission, too. ship was towed in by six tug boats and welcomed by cheering locals. pa passengers happy to be on sol itd land to say the least. >> the toilet started to back up. the food ran out. it was hosh. >> what about the spam? did you see it? did you eat it? >> i think it was the little vienna sausages. >> not only that, but the boat's band played extra shows and the ship opened up the bar.

carnival offering passengers a refound plus a free future cruise for those willing to give them another try. still ahead, back to school for our troops. we'll talk to an educator and soldier about a unique program to help our men and women in uniform to get the education they deserve. but first, the one, the only, dick cavett. the broadcasting legend dropping by to talk about his new book in a world where the chatter now and no longer ever stops. thank you. to use legalzoom for important legal documents. so start your business, protect your family, launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. [ ted ] for years, i was just a brewer. until one of the guys brought in some fresh bread that he'd made from our pale ale. and from that first bite, i knew my business would never be the same.

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we're back with an interview i've been look forward to for days. in fact, i've been looking forward to it even before i knew i had it. somebody who's consumed a few too many dick cavett dvds. he has talked to everyone from

janice joplin to jimmy hendricks. it's hard to think of someone he doesn't know or hasn't interviewed and now, he has written quite a book about his life on and off camera. it's called "talk show." with that said, i'm pleased to welcome dick cavett to the dr show. >> what did you say? too many. >> too many to admit. >> i would never walk off on you no matter what you said. >> good. >> yeah, it's -- well, you know, somebody said to me once, you like to write. you were a writer. you wrote for carson, for par. somebody said, how about "the new york times." do they want games? no, two columns a week for the month of august. it was easy to write two, then

three, now i've said everything i have to say my whole life and i will owe them 30 more if i take the job. yet somehow, you crank one out. >> if you were to look at the overall quality of tv hosts, tv information dealers, those through satire and those as straight as it can be done however crooked the current world may be. what is your view, not the quantity, but the quality. >> well, if i were to look at all those people you are referring to and alluding to because you didn't name them, a point from mrs. martin's english class -- >> thank you. >> i would be a fool to give my opinion of them because of the embarrassing fact that i know all of them.

>> but forget your opinion of the individuals. if you were to look at the practice of dealing with information this this country compared to the world you are working in and basically, the sense of certain things being true. certain facts being facts. and certain other things being opinions or r speculations, fast forward to 2010 with the internet and all the rest of it and it's harder and harder at least from my perspective, to differ from all of that and that is which is not. >> i feel inundated by the flood of unnecessary news, of hyped news. of news that says, a slams b in his speech and you think, oh, boy, i want to see him slammed and what he said was he should probably be more careful about his notes. everything has to be a fight or a slam, mr. right, mr. left,

who's up and who's down. one of the many fallacies that irritates me is that every subject have two sides. of course not. some have one and some have seven. >> do you think that news people as it were, hide behind that? that they go to this on the one hand? >> a bad habit. i could easily do without it. obviously, there isn't enough news to fill the day. so you come back in the kitchen and see the same story you saw an hour earlier. at least i can switch to another news channel and see the same story. >> would you want your own show? put you at 11:00 here on msnbc. prime time on another network. would you want to do that? >> i'll be there tomorrow. >> really? >> yeah. actually going on shows like

your on, not that there are any -- >> thank you. >> i suddenly have the itch to go out there and do it again. or at least -- >> what would you do? >> or on a limited basis. >> what draws you to it? >> there are things -- a new film or political blunder or a new president and i think it would be fun to talk about that with an interesting bunch of people on a show. in this building, i got my start. jack par. i violated what would be security. there wasn't any then or you'd be talking to an empty chair. i took a monologue to jack par and he hired me. there are some steps in between of course. when i began to do a show, he gave me the greatest advice you can get.

i didn't realize immediately. he said, kid, don't do interviews. i thought, what do i do, sing, dance? he said, that's clipboards, david frost, what's your favorite color. make it a conversation. that's what jack did. did it beautifully. when you have more than one person with you, it gets beyond let me ask you this. why did they say that? i always want to say, who's stopping you. >> if i have to have permission to ask a show here, where can i? let's discuss this book, shall we? >> okay. >> i'm told that one of the most talked about shows ever that is portrayed in detail in this book involves a head butting incident? >> no one i know would ever butt a head. >> drunken head butt.

what happened? >> that was a show where three authors were on. but fortunately, they were colorful and brilliant and articulate ones, all of them in both sexes. mr. norman maylor i learned butted the head of gorvey. he had been to one of his waters place on the way to the studio and it was clear he might not pass the straight line test. he came out with his fists up here. he was out to -- and janet was there. really stealing the show. it's notorious perhaps maybe because of one line or two. i finally got mad at norman,

also. and i heard him say what i realized must be the thing that could piss him off the most. why don't you just read the next question off the question sheet. >> norman said that to you? >> yeah, and i heard myself say, why don't you fold it five ways and put it where the moon don't shine. now, i hadn't heard that phrase before. it got of the three longest laughs i've gotten in my life, you can imagine that one. >> i can only manl. >> and then he's like, just hand me the -- haven't been holding that for year, just bring it. i said, should i have to tell you a quote from tolstoy, that got another laugh. the band played the gillette fight theme at least three times. funny, more authors and more

action and more near violence than -- >> ali frazier. of the rockers. >> how'd you know where i was going with that? >> if anybody's going to have a fight, it would be two boxers. it's a pleasure to meet with you. >> i've got another 20 minutes. >> there's a rumor started that dick cavett is coming to late night on msnbc. just ahead -- >> what are you doing? >> i have no authority. just ahead from soldiers to students, we talk about real ways to honor our veterans including providing education that they need to thrive in a very tough civilian economy, after this. [ woman ] you know, as a mom,

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those who serve is about more than the words we say on veterans day or memorial day. it's about how we treat our veterans every single day of the year. >> president obama on this veterans day speaking to u.s. troops stationed in south korea. one of the last great ways this country honors its vets is by helping to pay for their education. since world war ii, millions of our troops have used the gi bill

to help pay for schooling. now, some colleges taking it upon themselves to offer more than that. drexel university provides tuition-free programs to an unlimited number of military vets taking courses on campus or online. here to discuss it, dr. kenneth hartman and timothy blasscoe. sergeant, i'll begin with you. what, why did you decide to do this and how have you found it to be? >> i think it's just flexibility that helps me the most. just going to the brick and mortar schools is a lot harder. the minute i'd start class, i was deployed or off to florida or somewhere else in the world. the minute i clicked to get into drexel university, the next day, i showed up and the operation unified response. i was able to take classes from puerto rico, where ever else i

was. studying on the plane. a lot more flexibility. >> and how have you found the classes, the quality of the classes, the ability to learn online in puerto rico, relative to your other experiences? >> the loud mouths, the other guys who take over the class, they're no longer there. so, that's a little easier. i can read when i need to read and it's a little more extensive. a lot more reading. >> is that common? have you found that soldiers like tim who use the online version of this actually find it not only more accommodating to their schedule, but in fact, easier to navigate and more rewarding from a learning standpoint? is that typical? >> not only do i administer is program, but i teach online. teaching online is a much richer

experience because there's so much more interaction. as the sergeant indicated, you can't hide online. you have to participate. and military people, having been an old army guy myself, are very mission oriented. the military student who is very drill oriented understands that i have a limited amount of ti timemetime. >> how many of you are there? what percentage do you think or do you know, but do a lot of military personnel use the educational resources available. for those who don't, why don't they? >> i think necessarily it's part of the culture. a lot of people don't think when i get out of the military. their career is so, you're so

advanced, you get thrown into it so fast. at the end of the day, some are using their benefits, but not for themselves. they're passing them on to other family members, on to their children because it's been so long that they've gone to school that they think it's impossible. that's kind of what i wanted to say, is that online school says it's not impossible. i was studying in iraq. sitting at my desk on a plane into iraq, studying my stuff. >> but it's intimidating if you have been out of school for a long time and have been validated for your proficiency in things that aren't school but now i'm going to take you to something that's a different kind of a challenge. how do you overcome the intimidation? >> it's real simple. everybody goes in the military will come out at some time. it may be four years, ten years, 20 years. but you're going to have to come

back. if you don't have a quality degree with your experience, you're going to limit your options. so there are people who understandably come out of high school, take three or four years. there's a lot of great opportunities for military training and you have the culture there that says take more courses, be more proficient. there's got to be the adviser and they're there, but it is as you said, part of the culture where people aren't getting that understanding about their voluntary education. >> right. and i think the other side of that coin is in the military, you receive training. in college, you receive an education. there's a big difference there. >> we have over 90 degrees online. but it's more than the offerings. it's the services, the support that's necessary for these service members when they come back to campus or they're online because again, they live a different life and a college

must have that type of support. >> i would also think that the online helps overcome a little bit of a intimidation aspects because you can sit by yourself with your laptop where ever you are and be learning without having to feel like, what am i doing with all these kids. who are these people. if you want to learn more, where do you go? >> drexel.com, it will take you to our website. i have a blog there that talks about how to assess an online program and whether it's right for you. >> a pleasure. thank you for sharing your story. congratulations on your undertaking. coming up on "hardball," chris matthews talking to kent conrad about the tough choices ahead for our economy. but first, defining leadership at a time when america needs it more than ever. what makes our president a success or failure as leaders?

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what really makes a good leader and are there any left. that is one of the many questions we've been tossing around. our president and lawmakers are getting low approval rates for a reason. tony schwartz, you say there are four key characteristics. >> that's interesting. actually, what i think is that there are a set of qualities that go together. for example, right now what

you've got with obama, or what he presents is a lot of confidence and people feel he doesn't have enough humility. also, you get calm, but too detached. if you think about the qualities that great leaders need, they need to have both sides of any given equation. honesty is great, but if it isn't off set by compassion, it becomes cruelty. what happens is they choose upsides at what they're good at. what do you think your best quality is? >> brutal truth. >> brutal truth, so when you overuse that, what does it look like? >> big, mean bully. >> that's what always happens when a person takes a strength and overuses it. one of obama's incredible strengths is his calmness, but when he overuses that, it ends up looking like detachment, even

like arrogance. obama was great when he did hope and he at the same time as he did hope, he was able to do telling the truth. now, what's happened is he's lost his mojo on making people feel they have a reason to be hopeful. that's what clinton did so well. he had that extraordinary sense of empathy and would do anything, this was his weakness, in order to be loved, he could go way overboard and be willing to say almost anything as we know. so, i think that great leaders are like great parents. and there aren't many great parents, but think of what is a great parent? a great parent is somebody who gives a child autonomautonomy,

holds him accountable. a parent who tells a child the truth about what the expectations are, about what he kneels is going on, but also is em pathic and warm and kind. >> if you look at the current leader's decision to basically or reliance on one particular characteristic, how much of that is because it's easier? >> it's absolutely easier. it is a human quality to choose upsides. we've talked a lot about the next step we have to take. the next is the ability to hold two ideas at the same time. the easy thing is to default into the certain, the known. that's what people do particularly under stress. the harder thing to do is to be able to move this an agile way depending on what the circumstance demands. he's got to take off his jacket and not find under it every single time, a beautiful, white, pressed down shirt. he's got