>> all right, lizz. will be perrming at pittsburgh at the augwilson center on november 20th. details at lizzwinstead.com. i asked do a with rush limbaugh's comment? 27% of you said, yes. 73% of you said no. that's "the ed show." i'm ed schultz. more information on "the ed show" go to ed.msnbc.com or my radio website wegoted.com. "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. see you monday night in new york right back on "the ed show." have a great weekend. rush limbaugh's pirate radio. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews. in washington, leading off tonight, road kill. rush limbaugh has committed another hit and run. if you caught him on the radio yesterday you heard him once

more use race as a crowd pleaser. deriding nancy pelosi and james clyburn saying the democrats are racist. clyburn is getting bumped down from the leadership to the job of pelosi's driver. driving miss nancy, he calls it. question for the country. will all this stuff rush has to throw at the democrats, the bad economy and all of it why does he keep going back to race? plus, the threat from the left. if president obama accepts tax cuts for the rich and the deficit commission's recommendations, will he face a challenger for renomination? will the progressives mount a candidate against him? and a new poll shows the president's dropped an average of 18 points. and a half dozen state he carried in 2008. we'll take a look at how tough 2012 could be for him. also, november 22nd will mark the 47th anniversary of the assassination of president kennedy. everyone at that time remembers the secret service agent who jumped on the back of the president's car after he was shot.

and now he and another agent who was by jfk's side on that tragic day are breaking their silence on what happened. they'll be here tonight. and let me finish tonight with why it's time to end don't ask, don't tell and time to let all americans serve their country with pride and honesty. let's start with rush limbaugh's comments about congressman jim clyburn. joining me are two of clyburn's democratic colleagues. ohio congresswoman marcie kaptur and barbara lee. thank you both for joining us. let's listen to rush limbaugh if you dare, of what he said yesterday. >> the white racist leadership of the democratic party trying to ace out clyburn. clyburn started the man respected all hell seems to break loose in the democrat party. hey, i have a suggestion. you know, i like to mediate these things. i like to bring people together. i like to unify people. i don't like seeing this kind of strife. clyburn's worried about not having the car. clyburn's worried about not

having the perk of big office, driver, so forth. the way this could all be worked out, clyburn's new position, driving miss nancy. he gets to keep the car. he gets to go everywhere she goes. parties and everything else. he's not in the back of the bus. he's in the driver's seat. and she's in the back of the car being chauffeured. solved problem. >> let me start with congresswoman lee on this. i wonder if people -- well, i don't have to wonder anymore, they still think like this. one of them is on the radio. his name is rush limbaugh. the imagery there, back of the bus, driving miss daisy. chauffeured. the whole number here. what do you make of it? >> first, as my mother would say, consider the source. i don't believe this is the attitude of the majority of americans. but, clearly, we've come a long way in terms of racial healing. but we have a long way to go.

and they're still people who believe as mr. limbaugh believes. but, you know, i don't think that's what's important. i think that's important is that we have to move forward. have a dialogue about race and just really consider the source. nothing's going to change rush limbaugh and what he says. he has to act responsibly. he hasn't mean should. but i don't think that he is. and so we have to move forward. i think what's important, chris, is to look at this race and look at the background and qualifications of mr. clyburn, his experience. he comes to the leadership with a wealth of understanding, of all of the issues that affect all americans, north, south, east, west, urban, rural and so that's one of the reasons that myself and the congressional black caucus are supporting mr. clyburn. >> i'm not going to let this opportunity pass, despite the high-mindedness of your comments right there. let's go right now and take a look at rush limbaugh's greatest hits and nastiest hits. this is not a new subject for him. then we'll get back to this leadership race. here's rush limbaugh over the

years and what he's had to say. and let's listen so we can judge him and see the pattern. >> we're witnessing racism all this week that led up to the inauguration. we're being told that we have to hope that he succeeds. that we have to bend over, grab the ankles, bend over forward, backward, whichever, because his father was black. because this is the first black president. obama is the greatest living example a reverse racist and now he's appointed one. getting this, ap? sonia sotomayor, to the u.s. supreme court. what they don't know is that in obama's entire economic program is reparations. that's exactly the same thing you can say about obama. he wouldn't have been voted president if he weren't black. >> congresswoman kaptur, thank you for joining us. i want your view on this and then we'll move on to the more high-minded subjects. but i will let this pass. this guy has an audience out there and he's tasted a victory in being able to once again -- look it.

well, there he is. you're not missing this, this crazy performance here. this issue of this fight. since there is an african-american involved and since there's a caucasian american to use that term involved, steny hoyer, jim, he's seen an opportunity to once again, we see it all in terms of race. is that the issue or is that the issue of how the democrats deal with the fact they lost an election. they have to reassemble a leadership team and somehow find the best possible way to represent themselves to the world. >> well, first of all, chris, let me just say that if mr. clyburn has his hands on the steering wheel, i can guarantee you it's a firm grip and that car is headed in the right direction. and i just wish that mr. limbaugh would use more of his power to make sure that american cars get into the korean market and the japanese market and the chinese market and the european market so we can start creating more jobs in this country. i know mr. clyburn would drive the car in that direction. >> okay. let me go back to this question of the leadership fight. i want to find out about this --

congresswoman kaptur, you have asked for a delay. you've circulated a petition. now what happened is the democrats lost the speakership. that means miss pelosi's lost the speakership. she goes down to the level she'd like to as democratic minority leader. leader of the minority. that would mean steny hoyer goes back to the number two and james kwlieb urn from south -- moves down to the number three position. now the question is not that neat and you want to have a further examination of this before you vote. is that right? you want more time on this to think about it? >> yes, congressman peter defazio of oregon and i are circulate a letter asking members to sign on. wane we're doing very well. we just started two days ago. saying that we really need to assess what's happened. listen to our members, as they return from all regions of the country. we don't need to have leadership elections immediately. they're all already running through these different offices. the real question is what can our party do now to help to move this country in a positive direction to change the economic practices that have just been hemorrhaging jobs from coast to

coast. the president's original advisers. i think were ill advised. he's gotten rid of a couple of them, thank goodness. and i think it's incumbent upon the democrats that remain to help correct the ship of state. this election was about the economy. byron dorgan's book, "take this job and ship it," i have constituents giving me this book talking about what's happened to their jobs. i think it's a responsibility of the democratic caucus to put forward an economic program and to do it as members of the house, not because somebody in the economic office at the white house wants something, but because we as the congress stand up for the american people. that's what this election was about. >> congresswoman lee -- it seems to me a differential between -- >> and by the way -- if i might just mention -- >> yeah. >> if i might just mention, and i look forward to alliances with some of the tea party republicans that have just been elected because when nafta passed in 1993, we only had a 12-vote margin that would have made the difference.

and look at the terrible hemorrhage of jobs that occurred because of that. i'll tell you, i think that there's a real democratic tea party republican alliance to be born in this new congress. if it doesn't happen, the people who don't support jobs in this country won't be re-elected two years from now. >> let me go to congresswoman lee on that question. it seems there's a divide in the democratic party in the country between the coasts, the california coast out west, washington state, back east, new york, sort of the -- we might call them the port cities. the coasts. they're better off economically. they are doing well in the democratic party. the democratic party did great in new york state. they won all the senate races for both senate seats. they did great in massachusetts with deval patrick and all the members of the house being re-elected. you get into the middle of the country, starting in pennsylvania and all way across the midwest the industrial part of the country the democrats got wiped out. marcie kaptur just spoke for them. she is concerned that the democratic party is currently

put together is not in a position to win the hearts and minds and keep the jobs and win the jobs of the people of the middle of the country. you are out there in berkeley on the west coast. do you think you can speak for the people in the middle of the country? isn't this a problem that nancy pelosi is from san francisco. she doesn't understand the problems of the middle of the country. is that a decent argument or not? >> that's not a decent argument. when you look at the unemployment rates in california in new york, throughout the country, when you look at unemployment rates in communities of colors, for example in the african-american and the latino community, double digit, twice the unemployment rates of the national average. when you look at what has taken place throughout the country, the issue is jobs. the issue is economic recovery. we have unemployment rates out here again that are off the scale. and so we have to come together as democrats and continue to work on our job strategies. i'm going to tell you, chris. we saw single-handedly, and i think that marcie can confirm this.

how the republicans at each and every stage of the game in the last couple of years have -- >> but you don't have a two-party system in berkeley. >> no, no, i'm talk -- >> i'm talking politics. >> i'm talking in the congress. how democrats put forward an agenda for jobs and economic recovery. how each and every step of the way republicans voted against that. how we extended unemployment compensation. republicans even voted against that. >> the trouble is you come from a one-party area of the country, berkeley. nancy pelosi comes from a one party district. new york state dominated by one party districts. the california has all one party district it seems to me. nobody ever has a general election fight out there anymore. everything is gerrymandered. you get in the middle of the country and you have democrats getting wiped out because they face general election opponents. congresswoman lee, you don't have a general election opponent, you don't know what it's like to face one. miss kaptur here has to face one every two years. the middle of the country faces challenges from the tea party, from the conservatives who are getting beat, are beating them because they're facing the issue of job loss.

isn't that a different issue? i want to let miss kaptur get in here. because it sometimes me that the democratic party has a real issue on its hands. if you want to cede the whole middle part of the country and just hang on to the two coasts, cling to the left and the right coast and the east coast it seems we'll be a minority party for a long time. my thoughts, miss kaptur. now your thoughts, please. >> well, thank you very much. the great lakes states, the midwest states, really doesn't have a foothold in the democratic leadership in the house. it's no secret that the republican leader who will rise to speaker now comes from the state of ohio. we have very competitive races out here. in our own race we were outspent 4 to 1 this time. if you look at all the adjoining states, chris, that you have outlined, we are production platforms for the country in industry and agriculture. there is an immunity to understanding this in washington, d.c., where most people work for the government. and in many of these communities, let's take boston, for example, you know, it's the finance center.

new york city is a finance center. they trade in what we grow and make. but they really don't have respect for the work that's done here. we're ridden over. we are flyover countries. so often not for barbara lee. she understands this. she's fought with us for jobs. but i have to tell you we have a problem inside of both parties in leadership positions relative to what it's going to take to restore jobs in this country. and that's what the public was voting for this year to get greater understanding. they expect us to produce jobs. >> i want to -- congresswoman lee to respond. is there a problem of geography here? that the middle part of the country getting hollowed out economically and it's getting hollowed out politically in the middle of the country. you know the results like i do, congresswoman lee. >> chris, i think when you look at the results, we know exactly what is taking place. but i also have to say it's up to democrats to unify and to make sure that those of us in california, in new york, throughout the country come up with an agenda that speaks to the aspirations of the american people.

and it's the economy. and it manifests itself in a heck of a lot of different ways in marcie kaptur's district for example versus my district or the districts. but when you look at the pain that is being felt by the american people in the midwest and throughout the country, this is pain. and this is an unbelievably difficult time for everyone. and, yes, we have to look at how our party moves forward to make sure it's unified. and i just have to say, once again, that is why i am supporting jim clibeun for whip. because he has worked on a plan. our economic recovery efforts of with the rural south, with middle americans. he's been north, south, east and west. he's from the rural south. and so we have to have our leadership who really understands all of these parts of our country so that we can move forward and make sure that americans are afforded the american dream that they so deserve. that the bush administration destroyed. >> i am only arguing the only thing worse than bleeding is not knowing you're bleeding. i want to thank both of you for being here.

congresswoman marcie kaptur and barbara lee. it's an important discussion. coming up, president obama's path to re-election is getting tougher. the 2012 map is narrowing. if you will. only certain states he can carry. certain states he can't carry. if he supports the deficit commission's plan, would he face a primary challenge in the states he needs to carry? that means the challenge from the left. and that's ahead. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 tdd# 1-800-345-2550 if anything, it was a little too much. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 but the moment they had my money? nothing. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 no phone calls, no feedback, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 no "here's how your money's doing." tdd# 1-800-345-2550 i mean what about a little sign that you're still interested? tdd# 1-800-345-2550 come on, surprise me! tdd# 1-800-345-2550 [ male announcer ] a go-to person to help you get started. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 regular detailed analysis of your portfolio. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 for a whole lot of extras at no extra charge, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 talk to chuck. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 tdd# 1-800-345-2550 talk to chuck.

if you live for performance, upgrade to castrol edge advanced synthetic oil. with eight times better wear protection than mobil 1. castrol edge. it's more than just oil. it's liquid engineering. well you just heard the news here on msnbc. democratic congresswoman marcie kaptur of ohio wants to form an alliance with members of the tea party. an alliance between democrats in these areas in the midwest with tea partiers from those areas. kentucky senator-elect rand paul wants to form a tea party caucus over the senate. he wants to be bicameral with members from both sides of the house and the senate. paul says he wants to involve

the grassroots in his caucus, the tea party groups from around the country that have helped energize the republican base this past year. paul also plans to reach out to congresswoman michele bachmann who founded a house tea party caucus last summer. that group has more han two dozen house republicans in its membership. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." how serious is the threat from the left to president obama? to extend tax cuts for the rich for this rich lame-duck session. "the new york times" reports today that some riled up -- or so riled up are some liberals about the early recommendations of the deficit commission's chairman that privately, several suggested if mr. obama were to embrace its major parts, he would invite a primary challenge in 2012. mark halperin is an msnbc senior political analyst. and john heilman's with the new york magazine. both are authors of the book

"game change." mark, you start with this thing. is this a possibility? let's talk about the tax cuts. it seems to me that everybody in america knows their taxes are going up this next coming january unless action is taken by congress to extend the bush tax cuts, at least for them. and the president's problem is he's unlikely to get a vote in this senate to extend tax cuts just for the group he wants them extended for, people under $250,000 a year. so he may be facing a choice come mid-december of whether to let this thing go, back to january, with the tax cuts not in effect. in other words, people facing a tax increase or it will all be blamed on him. so what's he do? >> look this is a test case for a lot of what the next two years are going to be like. the president's going to have a choice. all presidents face cross currents. on this issue and almost everything else the president wants to get done he can either get stuff done or alienate part of the so-called professional left. the key for him is to show that he can get enough stuff done and

get enough democrats on board that he doesn't destroy his coalition on the left. >> that's the definition of it the problem. how does he do it? it seems he has to choose. he has to choose between facing the hellish situation of not approving the tax cut continuation and having the republican congress come in next january and jam it passed him like the u.s. cabaret attacking in saving the settlers and getting all the credit for it and having coming to run in on 2012 or doing it himself. john, you want to take a crack at that? john, what's the better choice for him. be the cavalry or let the republicans be the cavalry? >> i don't think there's a choice here. david axelrod when he gave that interview to "the huffington post" a couple of days ago was speaking the truth. that the world has changed around him. and he's going to have to accept a short-term extension of all the tax cuts and not allow himself to be put in a position where in addition to all of that has other political liabilities that he's taken on over the last two years, and particularly since -- in the context of the midterms. he can't allow himself to be

cast as a tax raiser on top of everything else. it's just not a plausible scenario for him. >> back to mark. can he get the republicans to agree to anything short of a complete extenuation of the tax cuts, even for the wealthy? can he get them to agree to anything short of that or they'll say, no, mr. president, we're not going to give you the vote in the senate. you're not getting the 60 votes. you're not going to get to just to people who make 250. suppose they do that. >> i think he's lost the possibility and the leverage to get them decoupled. to have an unequal extension. i think the best he can hope for is a short-term mirrored exemption -- extension for everything. and if he gets that, that's just a place holder. he needs to fight another day. but he can't be all about battle. he has to use this as an opportunity to figure out how he's going to deal with this new political normal with republicans, not in the majority in the lame-duck session but effectively with the upper hand now and in the majority in the house in january. >> let me go to this other question. the other day the debt commission run by a republican, of course, allan simpson. former senator from wyoming.

and erskine bowles the former chief of staff to president clinton came out and said a very, very tough recommendations that had to do with extending -- or raising tax base for social security. when you make up almost $200,000 a year, you'll be paying a ton of money into the payroll tax that you'll never get back. also getting rid of capital gains preference. but what i think that has grabbed all of the attention is that the fact that the retirement age will go up to 69 in the year 2075. and, john heilman, i know we're all spring chickens here but i just wonder, why in the world do people worry about 2075 and why are those fighting words for people? why is the democratic -- i guess it's the progressives, some of them are very young and they are thinking about 2075. >> i think it's more, chris, that democrats have just -- that the preservation of social security in its current form has been a touchstone for democratic politics. not just for the progressive side but the main stream of the democratic party for a long time. i think they feel to give anything on that front is letting the nose -- the camel's nose get into the tent.

so they feel as though they have to keep up an absolutely staunch opposition to tinkering with social security. no matter how fiscally insane that position is. >> but this is basically a two or three for one. perhaps a three for one. it is tilted toward the republicans. there's very little tax increase. is that the problem? the balance is wrong for progressives? mark? >> that's part of it. i think there's more in there the progressives don't like. some progressives are kind of stunned and offended, like paul krugman of "the new york times." that a commission formed by a democratic president would tilt that way. i think the thing is in some ways extraordinarily timid. the plan that bowles and simpson plan. it does a job of spreading the pain around. deterring things that need to be deterred, taking things on. the gas tax. there's a lot in there. i think this is a great opportunity for people who want to get things done. that includes the president. we'll see if it includes republicans in congress. it's a great opportunity to build on this thing. and the progressives who are squeaking and squawking, i think

john is right. they don't want to let a camel's nose under that tent, but they are going to be left behind if there is this coalition of obama, centrist democrats and republicans. >> let me ask you, john, about the whole question. do you thing public really cares about debt? they're willing to take it on and say i'm willing to accept a shared sacrifice meaning some tax increases on the right, some benefit cuts for the left and it's the only way we're going to deal with this because, obviously there wouldn't be a debt problem if it was easy to get rid of it. it exists because it's always been the preferred solution. rather than raise taxes, have a higher deficit. rather than spend less, have a higher deficit. it is always the solution. big debt has always been the solution to paying -- current pain. >> these are third rails because people have touched them in the past and been electrocuted. there's a strong republican constituencies on almost all of these people. they say they are in favor of deficit reduction yet when you try to take something away from them, they squeal. but look it's absolutely clear

that this will never fly unless the president and republicans are all willing to lead on the issue. >> i agree. >> there is no -- this will not happen just because the -- if the deficit commission can even get to the point where they have agreement on the commission because they don't have anything like that right now. even if they get to that point that will not be anything close to enough. the only way for the public to accept it is if they are led to accept it and they're led by the president primarily but also by republican leaders where everyone is going to have to hold hands and appeal to people's better natures. their patriotism and the future of their children and grandchildren. >> i wonder, guys, you are the experts as well as anybody, and it may be one of those arguments for a one-term, six-year presidency. some things you have to do as president that are not aimed at getting you re-elected. they're just things you have to do. thank you, mark halperin. that's food for thought for both of you. like ending wars that's never popular in our country. thank you, john heilemann have a nice weekend. >> you too. up next, joe miller is facing an uphill battle. i'd call it that. in his quest to become united states senator. he's organizing a spelling bee

up in alaska. if you can't spell murkowski, you don't count as a voter. wait until we see what happens to those write-ins up there. he doesn't believe anybody knows how to spell properly. ♪

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back to "hardball." time for the "sideshow." first the duke's back. in november 2005, u.s. congressman randy duke cunningham resigned from office after admitting to receiving over $2.5 million in bribes. his farewell press conference was one to remember. >> the truth is, i broke the law, concealed my conduct and disgraced my office. i know that i will forfeit my freedom, my reputation, my

worldly possessions, most importantly the trust of my friends and family. >> five years later, the duke is still in prison but singing a different tune. "the san diego union-tribune" is reporting that cunningham now says that the hundreds of thousands of dollars that he got from a defense contractor brent wilkes weren't bribes but gifts from old friends. wilkes was convicted in 2007 and is seeking a new trial in federal court. next, a big show up in alaska. tea partier joe miller has been busy all week filing lawsuits and challenging ballots during the counting of some 92,000 senate write-in votes. when anchorage reporter snapped photos of some of the ballots. they say these ballots are not clear votes for senator murkowski. look at them. catch this, by the way, guess who is now advising the miller campaign on the write-in camp? floyd brown.

he made up those willie horton ads back in the 1980s that tarred michael dukakis' reputation and destroyed his presidential campaign. whatever the decision to think to hire this guy and bring him in miller is a little late with his campaign effort. how many new and coming members of congress have never served in elective office before of any kind. according to "the new york times," 39. 35 house members and four u.s. senators making this the most. if you think about these things, the most inexperienced crowd in over 50 years to take office. 39 members in the next congress have zero experience in governing. tonight's who knows big number. . >> up next, president obama's pennsylvania problem. he won the state by double digits in 2008 but now a new poll shows the president down big in six key battleground states. what's happening in p.a. and across those other -- well, across those other great lakes states. scranton to oshkosh. governor ed rendell joins us next. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. [scraping] [horns honking]

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i'm milissa rehberger. the fbi has arrested a top county executive in maryland's prince georges county and his wife. no word yet on the charges but an affidavit accuses the kourpel of trying to conceal at least $180,000 in cash and checks, as fbi agents have arrived to search their home. in north carolina a heartwrenching end to the search for a missing 10-year-old girl. investigators positively identified bone fragments found earlier in week to belonging to zahra baker. the supreme court's rejecting a request to suspend don't ask, don't tell, while an apeals court considers a legal challenge. a former college student who hacked into sarah palin's e-mail was sentenced to a year and a day in jail. health officials in haiti say there's been an explosion of chl cholera cases. acti vision a new

moneymaking record "call of duty black ops" raked in $360 mm. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." what does the road to re-election look like for president obama now that the republicans are shaping up for -- to run. what do the midterms show about the map he should use to get there. joining me is pennsylvania governor ed rendell and msnbc political analyst, pat buchanan. i like to put this duo together because i have no idea what you are both going to say. but one thing i am sure of is there is no way for a democrat to be elected president without pennsylvania. it is the keystone state in more ways than one. he's down -- i look at these numbers. the top six states we're looking at in this new poll shows in these states all of which he carried, including p.a., he's down 18 points on average.

we're looking at california, colorado, illinois, pennsylvania, connecticut, new hampshire. right across the country. these countries -- these states, rather, show an incredible drop in popularity for the president. he has to get back up. and i'm wondering if the economy gets a little better is that enough? >> well -- >> governor rendell? >> first of all, chris, john heilmann and you were exactly right. we've got do something with the deficit and we've got to act together and if we do it together -- democrats, republicans, the president, congress -- and that you avoid the third rail. and the country needs it. now to answer your question, generic tests are also the toughest for politicians. no one can beat a generic candidate. it's easier to beat a live flesh and blood candidate. substitute sarah palin for the generic and those numbers change. that's point number one. point number two, the sestak result in pennsylvania, i think is the more accurate result. where president obama on the ballot a couple of tuesdays ago,

he would have lost by about a point and a half, the same margin joe sestak lost by. that's easily reversible between now and then. if you look at president clinton if we did a study like, they midterm for clinton or president reagan, he would have found they would have been down, too. i'm not worried about it. if the president leads and if does the type of things that show a strong leadership and a willingness to bring us together, he'll carry pennsylvania. >> i agree with the governor in this sense, chris. this was a heavily white turnout. 80% white, which is extraordinarily high. in 2012, it's not going to be there. the white vote will be down about 75, 73. who will come out? the hispanics who didn't come out. the young people who didn't come out. the african-americans who didn't come out, that will go up. secondly between now and 2012 you'll have the republicans no longer united behind an anti-obama basically agenda but fighting with each other to win the nomination for the presidency. so i think that -- and take a look at what obama did.

i mean, the democrats -- harry reid is extremely unpopular. he won in nevada. bennet is not a good candidate. obama say much stronger candidate than those two. if republicans lose colorado and nevada they lose the election. >> he got -- governor, you got 53% nationwide last time. i would argue, you would know this. you're better at knowing it, you're at home there. 53%. i think a chunk of that 53, maybe 3%, 4% were sort of high-minded eisenhower republicans who wanted to give the first african-american a shot at the presidency. and they are not going to be there next time, are they? those moderate republicans? will they be with him against a guy like mitt romney or against a guy like somebody else, this sort of generic republican as opposed to sarah who is not generic at all? >> first of all, the republicans aren't going to be smart enough to field mitt romney. they'll give us somebody a lot easier to beat. that's number one. >> that's true. >> that's number one. >> you are selling romney when you said that.

that's best pitch. >> that's number one. number two, there's a lot of time between now and then. and i think president obama can recover the moderate republicans and the conservative democrats by leading, by being -- tacking a little bit to the center and by telling the american people the truth. the american people want to hear the truth. and i think it goes back to the discussion you had before pat and i came on. if he leads and shows himself to be a strong leader, that's what the presidential elections are always about. >> okay. let's talk leadership because i think you're -- >> let me tell you what's going to cost the president, though. i think he's lost the conservative hillary democrats, those folks in west virginia, kentucky. >> correct. >> i think he's lost them for good. >> why for good? >> i think it's culture. they took a chance on the guy and they said he let us down. >> let's get back to that question of tilting. it seems to me if you are ever a democrat as you are, governor you have to have a coalition of the center and the left. you have to have that coalition alive. it has to be excited. both the center and the left have to be excited. not just the left. if you are president of the

united states, you are facing this tax issue, would you go into -- would you make the charge into the light brigade, say i'm not bringing the bush tax cuts through next year no matter what? i'm only going to do it for the people that make less than 250 a year or, darn it they'll have the votes next january to beat me. why do i want them to be the good guys of the middle class and give everybody the tax cut when i can give it to them now. would you go now or fight it out? >> first of all, i would try to find some middle ground. and there is middle ground. you make the middle class tax cuts permanent and you sunset the tax cuts on the wealthy americans. >> you think the republicans will allow a vote on that in the senate? give you 60 votes on that? let you vote on that? >> i think they'll look awfully bad if they don't. another approach i would create -- >> oh, i see what you mean. >> -- is create a bracket for millionaires. another bracket for millionaires and see if the republicans can turn that down. >> what do you think of that, pat, politically? >> ed is very close to the truth here. what you see is you sunset everything below a million dollars.

in other words not 250,000. take it up to a million dollars. and say, look. all the tax cuts go through to 2013. only a tax on those over a million dollars goes after that. and make the republicans kill that. i think that's the strongest thing obama can do. >> yeah, and if you say millionaires, let them line up. let the republicans line up. i challenge them tonight and vote for millionaires. >> i like the thinking here. i can't use the right phrase. we might use it on street corner. but it's a smart way of making republicans decide. i think jack kennedy used to use it. here's the other question. how do you deal with debt reduction? i heard this announcement the other day that the debt commission report came out. my daughter say volunteer from the university of pennsylvania. she's volunteering on that, not making a nickel on it. but the fact of the matter is they're coming out with tough stuff. getting out of capital gains preference. drive you crazy. drive a lot of people crazy. they are forcing people to make -- put about your taxes. you make an income up to $200,000, it's all exposed. you have to pay payroll tax on that.

so a lot of tough stuff there there for -- income people. >> there's a three-year freeze on federal salary increases which is a good thing. they'll cut back foreign aid. cut back one-third -- >> governor, how do you sell it to the left, right and center when it's got pain for everybody? >> i think that's the way you sell it. the only way -- we've got to tell the american people the truth. the only way we'll get the deficit under control and it does matter because the deficit means higher debt service and debt service is a contributing to our higher taxes or need to cut spending. you say everyone has to suffer. entitlements have to suffer. to tell you the truth, and i love erskine bowls and allan simpson. i'm not sure they did enough on social security to be honest. you have marco rubio down there in florida getting elected saying we might have to raise it to 70. i'm not so sure they did enough. >> they say 69 by 2075. by the way, who is worried about 2075? >> well that's the point. >> you aren't going to have to worry about it. you'll make a ton of money by then. >> that's the point.

thank you governor ed rendell. wise, as always. thank you, sir. and politically smart. anyway, thank you pat. amazing agreement here from the senior fellows here. coming up -- >> i love that. >> okay. new information about the day john f. kennedy was assassinated from the men who there were. the secret service guys. we've got two former kennedy secret service agents coming here next. their new book is called "the kennedy detail." filled with new details we've never heard before.

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welcome back to "hardball." on november 22nd, 1963, president kennedy was assassinated. here's a news reel report from that day. >> at 1:25, the motorcade moves into the downtown area. death is six minutes away. in a warehouse, a sniper with the rifle poised waits. the cheers of the crowd almost muffle the three shots. the assassin's aim is deadly. the area is swarmed with police. rangers and secret servicemen. the murderer slips the net but a few blocks away, a man is captured after he is reported to have killed a policeman. that man is a 24-year-old pro-castro texan who once sought soviet citizenship. he is charged with murder. meanwhile, the president had been rushed to a nearby hospital where life lingered as a waiting world prayed. a half hour later, he was dead. >> wow.

secret service agencies who worked for the kennedy family share their stories in "the kennedy detail" by gerald blaine and agent clint hill agents, thanks so much for your service to our country. this is a story that i'm always been fascinated with, with so many americans, because who does not remember that day? who was alive that day? let me go to clint hill and share these questions, both of you, gentlemen, as i put them to you. is there something that you've had, enabled to put in the book that would be new to the person who cared so much about president kennedy and cared about what happened to him that day, clint hill? >> well, i think what's new in the book is that the agents decided to reveal what they knew and what happened, what actually happened, not theory, but fact, as to the activities that day beginning from ft. worth over to dallas and continuing throughout the day.

everything that happened that day is relatively new from the agent's point of view. what you've heard before is other kind of reports but nothing really from these agent -- these agents have never discussed this with anyone before, not even among themselves so from that point of view it's all new. >> let me ask you about -- let me go to gerrold blaine on this and maybe you should just let him know this question or begin to answer it. the whole question of is there anything that could have been done to stop this from happening? >> anything that could have been done to stop this from happening? anything that could have been done to stop it? >> no, there was nothing that could have been done to stop it. clint hill performed a superhuman feat. the automobile was going about 11 miles an hour. and clint had to catch up with 80 feet, which meant he was running 15 miles an hour, and he couldn't get there in time. >> what about the story, gentlemen, that the president

was wearing a corset at the time because of his bad back and that that kept him from responding instinctively after that first shot that did not kill him, and a normal person would have crouched down onto the seat and he wasn't able do that because he was held up by this corset? is there something to that, do you know? >> no, there's nothing to that. he could have moved on if -- you know, natural impulse was what he -- what i saw him do was grab at his throat and lurch to his left and he was in upright position and then another shot came and that shot didn't hit him but shortly thereafter the third shot came and hit him in the head. i don't think that the corset had anything to do with whether or not he reacted in a certain way or not. >> was there anything to -- talk about the bubble top. i was always taken reading about this that he decided to get rid of the bubble top. would the bubble top have in any way if he had it up there would have deflected the bullet, would it have prevented the vision that harvey oswald had?

would it had a harder time getting a beat on the president? >> i doubt that. we don't know if it would have diverted the bullet. we would have no idea what would have happened. it was made out of plexiglas. it was not bulletproof. the normal procedure was to use the car without a bubble top. that was the president's really -- that is what he wanted done. and the only reason we would have used the bubble top is if it were raining or if the situation was such that it would have caused mrs. kennedy a problem with her hair, something of that nature, but other than that it was going to be wide open. >> something new in the book i was struck by. i thought i knew a lot of this. tell us about what happened in tampa that monday, the president took an earlier trip that very week, and he had a situation where you had a lot of agents surrounding the car, effectively -- well, basically covering on foot around the car. what happened and what was his statement to you guys at the time about what he thought of that approach to your job? >> well, gerry did the tampa advance that he was in the lead

car in the tampa motorcade, so gerry, what happened in tampa? what did the president say? >> the president was concerned. because going -- this was the first trip he'd made to the south. and he was concerned about taking florida and texas. and he told us in tampa to get the ivy-league charlatans off of the back of the car in his joking fashion. >> what did that mean to you guys? >> however, he didn't want agents on the back of the car in texas on the coming trip. >> what did that mean, this ivy league charlatans? what did that mean, gerry? >> i had to look up the world charlatan myself. and i knew that it didn't come from our agent. so it came from the president. >> wow. >> it was just his form of humor. >> well, guys, thank you. i know what -- i know what the first lady thought about you, clint hill, and how much appreciated it. read so much about. appreciated how much protection that you guys gave. what a horrible day.

i hope that you read it. it's called "the kennedy detail." the inside of what really happened from a secret service agent's experience, that's gerrold blaine and clint hill. thank you, gentlemen, for coming on our program. >> thank you, chris. when we return let me finish tonight when it is time to end this don't ask, don't tell. just get rid of it. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. ♪ [ growls ] ♪ ♪ [ polar bear grunting ] [ growls ] [ male announcer ] introducing the 100% electric nissan leaf. innovation for the planet. innovation for all. [ male announcer ] introducing the 100% electric nissan leaf. everyone has someone to go heart healthy for. who's your someone? campbell's healthy request can help. low cholesterol, zero grams trans fat, and a healthy level of sodium. it's amazing what soup can do.

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matter the united states congress should finish. it's called don't ask, don't

tell. it's the law that tells the u.s. military to allow gay people to serve like everyone else. they could be gay, as long as they do not say they are gay. we have to wonder about the constitutionality of a law that requires people to refrain from admitting something that is true about themselves. would it make sense to require that someone deny he or she is left-handed, refuse to allow anyone to know he or she is left-handed? it was, i've heard, at one time imaginable. teachers would tell the left-handed pupil to write with their right hands, insisted they do it. go back further in history when when we referred to people as left-handed as sinister. that's the word where the word sinister comes from. what i don't understand is why an entire political party's against letting gay people serve openly in the u.s. military. why can't a couple of republican senators, at least a couple, step forward and say it's time to do the right thing and let the able-bodied americans serve the country with pride and yes honesty. is there a problem? the secretary of defense says it it's better for the dong repeal don't as