i'm ed schultz. for more information on "the ed show" go to ed.msnbc.com or check out my radio website at wegoted.com. blog there with all of our radio shows. and xm 157 monday through friday from noon to 3:00. "hardball" with chris math use starts right now. great to have you back here, chris, here on msnbc, the place for politics. what's worse? palin or the pat down? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews back in washington. leading off tonight, can she see the white house from her house? a new poll's got her leading the republican pack for 2012 do we take that seriously? does she take that seriously? all the outward signs are that

sarah palin's running for president. but what about the inward signs? is there any indication, i moon, any indication that this former half-term governor is giving five minutes a day to thinking, to reading, to trying to get beyond the cliches and applause lines aimed at the people who wouldn't claim for a second that they're ready to lead this country. anyway, she knows how to sell the question. she knows how to milk, what she calls the lame stream press and she says that she can beat obama. she thinks so. can president obama beat her? you bet you or you can bet he thinks he can. plus, can we cut the cheap shots over those new tsa screenings? okay, you tell me how to keep the killers off of the planes because that is the real question. and it's going to be a huger issue in one of those get by, one of those hijackers get by and blow a plane. we're going to get tougher and tougher and how do you think that there is -- to prevent airline terrorism from them all of those years? also, will president obama really put on the pressure to repeat don't ask, don't tell and trim the tax cuts on the rich? will he? or will he try to get through christmas with a compromise?

and who's going to scream if he does? he's seen this quote, caving the republicans. will that cause him troubled with the howard dean, russ feingold folks who may be looking to challenge the president the next time. one of the key issues are the s.t.a.r.t. treat which republican jon kyl is opposing for no other reason than to humiliate the president and to apeas the neocons. not about waste, fraud and abuse this is about nuclear weapons. can anybody defend this republican push to destroy nuclear peace? finally, the best ever skit from "saturday night live," check out "snl" send-. you tsa pat down controversy. it's one of their best spoofs that i can ever room and that's in the "hardball" sideshow tonight. >> ut we start with sarah palin, well we have to. some people are afraid that we'll end up with her. david corn is washington bureau chief for mother jones and write for dailypolitics.com. and pat buchanan is an msnbc political analyst. look at former governor palin last week in an interview with barbara walters what a showdown

that was. listen to the key question. >> i'm look at the lay of the land now, and trying to figure that out, if it's a good thing for the country, for the discourse, for my family, if it's a good thing. >> if you ran for president, could up beat barack obama. >> i believe so. >> i would love to know what's going on in barbara walters' head. she's seen them on. sheness the way, she can judge the people and there's she's look at this woman, what is her story. >> that came across as a real "hardball" interview there, chris. >> well, okay. sometimes the wide -- as you make that dismissive comment about one of the here office journalists, that is the wide open question, sometimes -- >> you never know. >> the starkey question sometimes gets the good answer. like she said i can beat him. >> listen, pat buchanan's old friend ronald reagan a saying associated with him, do it for the gipper with sarah palin it looks like her saying is, do it for the hell of it. out there with a book. >> is she running. >> i don't think that she knows yet. i think that she wants to you know, cash in.

>> okay. >> and get a lot of celebrities and see what happens. >> let's look at polling, pat. i don't want to waste your time here with this because this is a really hot question and i know that you like her and are there certain things about -- that likes. this is a quinnipiac poll. a really good one. first one out of shooter. don't pay attention to these early polls bus here they are. 19 points for sarah palin. mitt romney's got 18%. mike huckabee very strong at 17%. newt at 15% and pawlenty down there at what 6%. what i'm impressed by as a poll watcher and completely believe will in what they are. look at,looks right now. huckel chuckle is so strong, he's within -- basically within the margin of error with nowhere the name of the idea of these other two people. is he really a contender is this really a three-way fight right. >> you mike huckabee and sarah palin have one thing that none of the others have, they have followings, chris. >> yes. >> huckabee's got a tremendous following among the christians. he won the iowa caucuses. >> sarah.

wasn't he a reverend. >> i think that he was. >> he was. >> he says i'm not only agree of you but i'm of you. >> once a reverend always a reverend but changed. >> i think that he dropped it and i think that you're still a reverend but let me say this, if you go into iowa, sarah palin's got the tea party she would have with her, she would have the christians with her. and i think she's got the right -- >> the christians the people who are riding busses to votep. >> now, wait a second. hold it. huckabee is the one challenger who could take an enormous part of that base away from her. >> i agree with you. >> and frankly deliver it to someone else. >> look -- >> go ahead. >> foreign territory for you, okay? you're behind enemy lines here, let's be honest here. look, it seems to me if you look at this like a bracket situation, you've got the western conference, the tea party people, very christian conservative like you are about very believing and demoral issues like the abortion rights. >> libertarians. >> and then east coast. i think that you have two brackets. if she is knocked out for that conservative bracket that christian conservative bracket by huckabee -- she's out of

game. if she wins it she's in it till the end, right. >> i disagree with. in i think what she's got -- chris, she went down into delaware and got behind an unknown, and got him -- got her to beat in the primary the most popular republican in the state. she can do what fdr did not do, which is knock people off in her owner. >> but wait a minute. >> the let me finish. i think that sarah palin's saying she's got legs in this sense. she can last through defeats 'keep going. very few others can do that. >> but she's still -- >> except for huckabee. >> take a look at the people who doesn't like. >> she still has to campaign on her.going in and giving her -- >> if you ever doubt there's a republican establishment out there, watch barbara bush. here she is with an interview with larry king. one of larry king's last interviews. let's listen to this interesting back and forth. >> what's your read about sarah palin? >> well, i sat next to her once. i thought that she was beautiful and i think that she's very happy in alaska and i hope that she'll stay there. >> i like that nonreaction from

george herbert walker there. >> who ever thought that barbara bush would account voice of the american people. she's more in sync with people than pat is, because sarah palin's unfavorable rateings. >> who would you rather have president of the united states? >> i would go with barbara bush. >> of course. >> but, wait a second, sarah palin's unfavorable ratings are over 50%, most any poll, she does well with a certain seg. american population and doesn't match well against obama. >> we're talking about the republican primary, now that, excuse me, barbara bush is a great lady. that was a very snarkiest comment. but i agree with you, it's representative what the establishment believes about sarah palin. >> which she's not up to it. >> well, sometimes the establishments are not raw. >> she's not challenging us for this nomination. >> take a look at the group that's always back there. you know our friend freddy the beatle barns. a neoconservative, in one case an old conservative, another. they basically found her up on a boat. went up on one of these alaska

cruise. we have a love intellectual stuff going. she came out to the boat, went to lunch. picked her as their new hero, this apparently, dropped her now. so the neocons have dropped sarah palin -- according to this article, here's matt labash in the upcoming issue of "the weekly standard." good for pale fin she's happy following her gut though there is no compelling reason to suggest rest of us should tag along behind. that is a -- usually dismissive gesture right there, pat. they have just -- they picked her, just like they picked quayle and discarded quayle once finished with him. have they done the same to her? as bill crystal basically sent out a message out she's not up to this. >> well not yet. if he ran an editorial -- >> the national leading indicator. >> well it may be an indicator but not conclusive quite frankly but if crystal did it himself in his own magazine i would agree you, but look she's far bigger than the neocons who are all chiefs and no indian. >> no they did not.

she was -- my people called me about her in 2006. >> they know something that most americans know. >> what -- >> that she's emptying, she's not competitive in the general election. they want to win the next election. that. they don't just want to express their feelings but win. >> shocked that she's not doing any homework, any substance? >> no she's doing very well not doing substance in the polls. >> preparing to be president. >> well, what he says there's mer nit what he says. >> thank you. >> these republicans can taste -- can taste the presidency. >> it's a win possibly. >> yes. >> and they're saying if we nominate her we're going down the tubes but we want that power. now, ultimately, that's where the neoconswill go. >> reaction, left and right. i think what's going on here is exactly what you say. they're looking at polls on obama, they wonder if he can get his sea layiengths back. between christmas and new years. if he can't get his sea legs back and this looks like a real wobbly lbj situation like in '68

where he's going to blow this down. they're going to pick a win merp is nixon country. when nixon won in '68. i think it's newt. >> newt! >> no way! >> watch this. >> no way. >> newt thinks -- >> chris, chris, 1980, the real it's sensible choice was george h.w. bush because people wanted to get i received carter and he was s, and instead republicans went from -- now that's the danger. >> but reagan was a heavyweight. >> reagan was also somebody about whom they were enormous questions right until the end of the campaign. >> right. >> now, listen, keep quiet, keep quiet would you. >> listen. >> you don't account for people who respond to the heart, not eye mean don't sit there -- >> not get to the heart. >> now, here's the thing -- no, no. >> okay. who else gets to the republican. >> alright huckabee. >> a battle between patrick j. buchanan on the line here. you think a battle for the republican party the conservative movement and the battle at large here. >> i say that the big battle's between three. romney --

>> how can he take the snort she he takes the establishment end. >> the last time-out mccain won without appealing to anybody's heart. >> take the liberal. >> i'm taking -- >> who's going to win the nomination. >> romney. huckabee and palin it's a death match on the conservative part. hey, can i finish now. >> sure, sure. >> she lips in on the basis of being a businessman and able to talk about the economy which is something sarah palin can't do, and something that huckabee isn't very good at. >> how do you know -- republican convention in tampa, florida, september 3, or something. 120 degrees down in tampa. i don't know why they pick these locations about in. a, everyone's go to be sweat, all hot. humid, 120 and all these conservatives are going to truck down there from iowa from south -- all of the places that palin wins if she runs and get down there and put their big salute to romney. >>s on the over by then. >> tell me who wins iowa and south carolina. >> she does. >> i'll tell you who wins the nomination. that's it. if she wins those two, she wins. >> okay.

>> now everybody else is gone. >> then the republicans lose in 2012 and people know that. you don't think that she's up to the task. >> we've done this before. >> i salute you for recommending that the republicans will pick mitt romney. who may be barack obama may be to beat. >> a lot tougher. >> i like honest analysis. pat, right now 100 bucks, who would you put on. >> i don't know. i really don't. >> come on. >> the tell me who is in, if huckabee's in, i would guess -- >> you want the scanner or the pat down? what do you think, pat? the scanner or the pat down. >> if huckabee's in take the bet on romney. >> pat on the scanner, coming back david corn, pat buchanan. he gets the scanner, he gets the pat down. coming up, still lots of angber that full-body scanner and pat downs at the airport. what is the alternative? that's what i ask. 45-minute interviews is that what we want? we'll talk about why people are so bothered and about this extra security before boarding a plane. that's the question. should we know more about the people before they show up in line? you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc.

i mentioned that new quinnipiac poll which shows president obama matchup with the potential 2012 republicans and the numbers are very close than the actual matchups. mitt romney narrowly edges out president obama 45-44%. too close to call there. obama lead says indiana governor mitch mcdaniels largely unknown. but he's an unknown guy and obama gets closest to 50% against palin. he beats her 48% to 40% but you notice he doesn't get 50% against her, very interesting p we'll be right back. because when it comes to kids and healing... you're not just powering a toy. you're powering a smile. duracell. trusted everywhere. it's that time of year. time for campbell's green bean casserole. you'll find the recipe at campbellskitchen.com. campbell's.® it's amazing what soup can do.™

sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you because i'm also making you a smoothie. [ male announcer ] marriott hotels & resorts knows it's better for xerox to automate their global invoice process so they can focus on serving their customers. with xerox, you're ready for real business.

i understand people's frustrations and what i've said to the tsa is that you have to constantly refine and measure whether what we're doing is the only way to assure the american

people's safety and you also have to think through, are there ways of doing it that are less intrusive. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president obama over the weekend in lisbon. over those new airport screening devices. a groundswell of complaints over the use of immune scage scanner. john pistole said that security officials will try to make the screening procedure as minimally invasive as possible. here's what he told matt lauer today on "today." >> are you now actively rethinking this policy? >> yes, matt about. you're probably away that we constantly evaluate and involve our protocols in light the latest intelligence. how can we do the most effective screen nlgt least invafs way. the tradeoff between security and privacy. >> well, his name is pistole. errole southers. and of course the former chief

of homeland security and intelligence for the l.a. world airport's police department. i saw him this morning on savannah guthrie on "rundown." is assistant director for the open government project for the electronic privacy information center. she's suing the department homeland security to suspend the program due to privacy concerns and health risks. mr. southers, thank you so much. what i loved about you this morning on "run down" is here clear you are in explaining this. what right now is the use of scanners and pat downs, what if i went to the national airport i can tell you but you tell me professionally. what do you face you travel to visit a relative this weekend in an american airline? >> well, if you travel this weekend, and i'll be honest with you, chris, i've traveled extensively over the last two weeks and not been subjected to advance imaging technology or a pat down, but if you do go tooirpt you are then going to go through the routine procedure and if you trigger a sensor, you'll have to be asked then to go to secondary. secondary will -- may include advanced imaging technology. and you'll go through that

protocol. if you opt out of advance imaging technology you'll be subjected to a pat down as has been discussed for the last week or so. >> now in washington, it's somewhat different. in washington, and giabout do 00 times a year through -- at international reagan airport. almost like a lottery. like the mag no tommic the regular metal detector but you may find yourself in a line that goes through the new scanner the image scanner and that would happen to you if you just happened to be in that line. is that the waythat you see it. >> yeah, yeah, tsa's primary. >> what do you think to be doing to check people at airports. >> well, first. >> what should we be doing. >> what should we be doing? >> yeah. >> focusing more on lawfully gathering intelligence. >> on who? get intelligence on? everybody who comes to the airport? >> in this instance like with the terrorist attack last year, we had the intelligence that we needed to act on that. >> no, no, no, no, don't change the question. this is "hardball." i'm asking you a serious question. we have thousands of people in line at the airport every day. all trying to get on the airplane. what do we do where those thousands of people to make sure that they're not a danger to the country or the people on the

planes. >> we focus -- >> make sure those people are not in danger. >> yes, we focus on developing technology that respects privacy while also giving us security. >> no, what do we do to check on those people waiting in line? make sure they're not carrying a bomb. >> we can use technology. >> what that. >> atr. the automated target recognition technology, automated threat recognition technology. >> what is that. >> it's something that's being nut place in airports around the world. tsa is actually -- hopefully working on developing in technology. it basically, instead of displaying a naked image of a traveler, it displace an avatar image or a stick figure taken targets, if there's a specific anomaly it targets that area for further inspection. right but we don't have that technology. >> that technology has been developed. it's continuing to be developed. what we need do is to ensure that that technology's not just overlaid these machines, that can store and transfer -- >> can we do this today? >> requests we can. that's place in airports iability in netherlands. >> are you familiar with this technology, errol, mr. southers. >> i am familiar with some form

of this technology but she does have a good point. i think what we should be leaning toward is a trusted traveller program where people are willing to submit themselves voluntarily to higher scrutiny. getting a background check. having a passport which will then take a scan of their hand, their retina and then go through the system. now we have a risk-based approach. >> they hate that because they want to be able to charge you for business -- for business class or first-class and then they can charge you norget in the shorter line. they do not want somebody coming along and saying, here's your card, you should be able to get on that plane fast, isn't that true? isn't it the airlines who want that money? they want to give -- they want you to pay to get in the shorter line? what's going to right now. >> i don't if that's true. i can say being a registered traveler with the global entry that i had to pay $100 for five years. it's good for international traveler. >> that's a good deal. >> it's worth it to me. it is a good deal. it's worth it to me. it does not mean that you bypass screening, still look at your

bags for prohibitive items. you're still walking through the mag no tommeter. >> i'm one of those travellers who doesn't care. i travel constantly. i'm glad -- i know that we're in a world of danger, it will get worse and worse and worse and by the way i will argue to this and this is just an argument and just come on the show for the first time, ginger. that if we get hit again, we're going to have a much tougher -- whatever you want to call it, profiling, whatever, people are really going to be looking fortunate bad guys and not so nice about it because the nant we let more people through and blow off i plane because we're trying to be nice about it, well, we could have stopped the guy -- why don't we go through this question. the smart thing to do to look as you said this morning to look for the bombers, not the bomb? if someone -- you -- shouldn't you focus more on people who've been to a louft countries who've been against us, countries in the middle east who are out to get us where there's a lot of terrorist, shouldn't be looking for femwith those kind of travel histories, those kinds of -- that kind of information? you could call it profiling but the question of driving while black and all of the history of that stuff. i'm talking about actual look for people that would be from

the problem areas, can we do that now? >> i think we can do that. i think we should do that. i think we should be focusing on the human element and, chris, you hit the nail on the head. we should be looking at travel patterns. we should be looking at histories. there's certain people that we are to look at. i know that profiling's a very bad word in this country, but there's a human element to this. terrorism occurs because human beings cause terrorism to occur so we've got to get better again at looking for the bomber. >> i would be totally against this, any american should against anybody, because they're dark-skinned or anything else about them about but you go through their documents. where they've come from, in their nationality is a fair game, isn't it? isn't if fair game? do you think that it's fair game. >> no. >> you don't think that it's fair game to check someone's nationality. >> the dynamic enemy. you're dealing with intelligent people who are going to outsmart that. >> of course. we're talking about how do you extend the length -- okay you don't want to do anything then. >> no, absolutely not. >> you want to use technology -- >> technology. >> that hasn't been put on line yet. >> that technology has been put

on line. it's been put line in airports. we had the intelligence that we needed last christmas. and importantly, these machines are not effective against powder explosives. they're not designed to detect powdered explosives. if you look at -- the website, the procurement specifications document that we have up on our website that tsa autherred these machines were not designed to protect petn. we're use anything effective machine that violate anyone's privacy. >> why are we doing that. >> probably because a lot of money that changes hands. national security theater. it makes people feel better. >> what do you mean a lot of money changes hands. >> $170,000 each for these machine. $2.4 billion in the gao report. >> so -- i'm following you. what about the money changing hands? who's getting this money that you're talking about. >> probably the same revolving door people that get -- >> the government -- there's dirty business here. >> well a problem with the revolving door. people going from agencies. >> no we're buy ago you're saying that we buying faulty

equipment because somebody is getting the money who has influence. >> yes. >> who are you accusing here? specifically. >> well, michael chertoff's been shown it have ties to these countries. >> so it's michael chertoff in the tank with some businesses, they're doing business with the government that you're saying. >> yes. >> okay how about ray lahood? >> i'm not familiar. >> well, he was the head of transportation safety. the department of transportation, is he part of this problem. >> i can't really speak to that. >> but you're saying that we have machinery now because a republican -- in the past administration had some sweetheart deal with some suppliers. some vendors. >> it's not just chertoff. tsa has a history of. >> who else is involved in bed with buying these faulty machines. >> i'm not going to name names for you. i can talk about the machines and the abilities and their lack of capabilities. >> finally getting to the bottom of itp you believe that the united states government is using faulty machinery because of corrupt deals? >> i think that this machinery -- i know that this machinery is not effective at detecting that. >> and you're saying because michael chertoff head of the transportation safety, it was the head of the homeland security, was involved in this. >> that's only reason that i can see it for the united states

spending $2.4 billion on technology that's not effective at picking up the powdered closeives. >> do you know anything about this, errol? any reason to believe that our government's corrupt. >> i want to believe that the american security apparatus is acting in their best interest of keeping americans safe, and that the administration, meaning the tsa at this point, has acted with whatever information they have that has rose to the level of scrutiny that we have now. >> wow. >> i think at the end of the day we all want the right thing which is for people to be safe and secure and traveling about the country in the world. >> well, i want to have michael -- michael chertoff, if you're watching i want you on the show to defend yourself. nights serious charge. you've just accused him of corruption. because of the deals that are made -- >> tsa. >> sweetheart. >> tsa has history buying equipment before they've actually demonstrated the effectiveness. >> you said because of a sweetheart arrangement with the vendors. >> that would be speculation and i can -- >> well you're speculating then. >> well i can say that chertoff is connected.

>> with whom. >> with the developers and the manufacturers. >> therefore, he shouldn't be on behalf of the u.s. government. >> again not what i'm here to speak about. >> you just did. >> the fact that these machines are not effective. >> well, you're on the record -- you're on the record ginger mccaul accusing michael chertoff of dirty business on behalf of the united states government. >> i'd probably not be alone of that. >> you've made a serious charge, thank you, thanks for coming on. if it's true it's a serious charge. i don't think that it is but we'll see. thank you errol southers and ginger mccaul. coming up "saturday night live" with a few ideas of how to feel better about those tsa new security screensings. that's next on "the sideshow." you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. i like to discuss my ideas with someone. that's what i like about fidelity. they talked with me one on one, so we could come up with a plan that's right for me, and they worked with me to help me stay on track -- or sometimes, help me get on an even better one. woman: there you go, brian. thanks, guys. man: see ya.

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♪ back to "hardball." a time for the sideshow. first tonight your all alone. in your room.

million miles from social life and worst of all, it's saturday night. >> feeling lonely this holiday season? >> looking for a little human interaction? >> do you want to feel contact in certain special places? >> then why not go through security at an airport? >> the tsa. >> the tsa agents are ready and standing by to give you a little something extra to feel painful about this holiday season. >> spending time with a tsa agent couldn't be easier. simply book a flight departing from any american airport. when selected for a full-body scanner, say no. you'll be pulled aside by a tsa agent and that's when the fun begins. the tsa, it's our business to touch yours. >> now that was funny. next the handicap for huckabee. last week, sarah palin said she could beat president obama in 2012. well, mike huckabee's response, it's not so easy. here he is on "the view" today.

>> i think it's going to be harder to beat barack obama than a lot of republicans who are thinking, because he is the president. he's going to have a billion dollars starting out in his warchest. there's extraordinary advantage an incumbent and i'll tell you something else that people don't think about, a divided government is good for the executive branch. what that means is that when the executive and the legislative branches fight, the executive always wins. >> could this guy be the one? finally, do you think that we've finally seen the last of sharron angle? not so fast. said this weekend that she's eyeing her options of 2012. angle tellses a local paper that she might run if the state district house seat. angle add she would have liked to have run a more positive senate campaign. i guess she's dropped that second amendment remedy of hearse. always wondered what that meant exactly. was she talking about another whiskey rebellion out there in arizona? it took down george washington to put down the first one. anyway, up next, if president obama caves in to republicans on the don't ask,

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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. the fbi raid the offices of three hedge funds today looking for evidence of alleged misconduct. it's all part of an ongoing investigation into what may be the largest case of insider trading if u.s. history. heavy thunderstorms are tearing across southern wisconsin and northern illinois tonight. we're getting reports of power outages and airport delays, but so far no injuries. in a jury in washington, d.c., found the salvadoran immigrant of murdering chandra levy back in 2001. north korea's claim to expand its nuclear program may be just a, quote, publicity stunt aimed

at winning concessions at the negotiating table. more than 330 people were killed in a deadly human stampede in an overcrowded festival in cambodia. the victims were report lead crushed to death, or push interested a fast-moving river. and israel's parliament's just approved a law, making it harder for any israeli leader to give up territory in disputed areas, like east jerusalem. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." first of all, i want to thank michael summer connick for sitting in for me on "hardball." i was in rome with the new cardinal in washington, cardinaler who will. a giant game of chicken getting under way here if washington, and neither democratses nor republicans want to swerve. a close eye on how president obama navigates politically the

next month. will he hold the line on bush tax cuts? how hard will he fight for a don't ask, don't tell, and most importantly for some in the liberal base would heap stand firm against the republicans? dennis kucinich of ohio. thank you, gentlemen, i have great respect for you. you got through this election, this was a tough one and anybody who gets through this doesn't have to worry about general elections from the republicans anymore because this may be the worst of your histories. let me start now with congressman kucinich. it seems to me that the public -- everybody knows the issue now, will the president agree to the republicans when they insist on a full extension of the bush tax cuts including those for people making over $250,000 a year? how does the president face the fact it takes 60 senators to approve a continuation of the tax cuts, and unless the republicans give him those 60 votes, he will find himself facing two choices. either the public doesn't get the tax cut and they blame him over christmas and the holidays. the republicans come in and give him the tax cuts. orree takes hell from the

progressive base. how does he win that choice? >> well, i think this is time for the president to go right to the american people who vote for these members of the senate. and tell the american people that he wants to deliver on a tax cut for the middle class. i think the dynamic has to change, chris. we're clearly in a game changing environment. after this election, the president is in a campaign mode. he has to be faced with the consequences of, if he doesn't get help, he needs to go to the american people and say, he wants their help and he wants them to contact their senators to support his efforts to bring the middle class a tax cut. >> congressman cohen, what would you do? what do you think that he should do? he just had this dilemma facing him in the next couple of weeks. >> i think that he's got play hardbal. i think that he's go the to say that we want to give tax cuts to the middle class the 98%, we'll stimulate the economy, and other 2% can -- continues to distribute to the deficit and doesn't help with the economy. >> yeah. >> an i think that he just has to say it, and talk -- maybe just go to maine. he just needs a couple of votes

and he could get them in maine and massachusetts. >> well, he need it's he could guest a couple there, get somewhere perhaps in ohio, from voinovich, you know the question is what does he do? do you believe that -- to you first, congressman cohen this time. do you think that he has the clout to do what roosevelt couldn't do? which is to nail be? their district and really make them switch. you believe that's possible? you could get some republicans? >> i think it's possible. when he talks 98% of the american public's got their tax cuts and you're looking at the richest 2%. i think he can make the case. and this is a democratic stand that he needs to take and if he doesn't, the bush tax cuts on anthem for democrats and capitulate to that there's no difference in the parties. i've got an e-mail today and it was about afghanistan and iraq and this fellow said he's always a democrat but he was not voting for barack and he's not voting for steve if we're still in afghanistan and still committing wars. >> okay let's go to the -- i understand that point of view. let me get batok congressman kucinich on this question. maybe you don't want to give await play right now but down to

mid-december, coming up on christmastime and the holidays and the president can't spring those republicans, does he sign the bill or not, does he accept the fact that they have won the fight or does he just go over christmas and the holidays and say, i don't care what the republicans do when they get control of the house, no democratic house is going to agree to this deal. >> i think -- >> does he win that argument, if he goes that far to not letting people have their tax cuts through christmas? >> i think that he has to fight on this. and i think the american people will appreciate to see barack obama the fighter who we saw in the 2008 election, the barack obama who when he was sworn in, literally had lightning in a bottle. a magic moment. we can recapture that moment but he's going to need some forward momentum. we'll support him in the house, and if he takes that forward to the american people and says, this is something that i'm digging in on, this is what i want for you the middle class and i think that will make a difference. >> so, harry truman not bill clinton, don't compromise fighting? >> that's right. >> give them hell. you agree with that, congressman cohen, give them hell. >> this is a litmus test. >> not just the gay in the

community and close to him but whole question of progressives and where they stand on equal treatment towards and open service in the military. the commission's going to come without in report at the end of this month. we're going to know probably that the military supports ending don't ask, don't tell. can the president put enough pressure on those senators again to get this 60 to get approved. the change in the law. congressman cohen first. >> well, it's tie to the defense appropriations and i think that he can get it through with the defense of appropriations, particularly if they're earmarks there that are important to people's districts. you know, barry goldwater was for ending don't ask, don't tell and the conservatives ought to be able to rally, at least as liberal as barry goldwater. >> congressman kucinich, do you think that he can win on don't ask, don't tell? this is a weird one because the military through the joints chiefs supports change. gates says it's better that congress does it know that the courts. more reasonable to do it that way. a smoother way to do it. but marines at the top seem to be very much against this. is this going to be a position that he can hold? can they hold that position? >> i think that the president

can set a tone here of basic fairness. if somebody's serving our country, that's a sacred obligation that they give and a duty to the country, we owe them then a duty to make sure that they're treated like any other american and not have to be given a second class citizenship. so i think this is something again that's worth fighting for and the president will have support in the house, as he's had support in the house on this. and i think we see the change happening in the military. that's a good thing. it may not be happening in all of the service, but i think that everyone who serves this country knows, that when somebody puts on a uniform of a country and serves proudly, that they ought to be given full rights in the democratic society. >> congressman cohen, do you think that times have changed enough since the time that bill clinton came in and put this up front, allowed it to become a top issue? does he get humiliated by the center and the right on this issue, like clinton was, where clinton really took a strong stand, and then had to buckle. have times changed enough on this issue that he can say i'm for getting don't ask, don't

tell for total open service for gay people in the military, period, and i don't mind who doesn't like it? >> i think that times have changed and i think that the fact is the president has to realize, when he runs for re-election, he's going to have to have his base. and he's not going to get the republicans and he was not going to get those people who are against these type things, because the people who are against gays in the military, by and large, they're against health case, they're against all of the progress that we've made in this country, so much of the progress and they scream socialism when they don't even know what socialism is. >> i know. >> the president needs to support the people who've supported him, get his 50%, and just show some results for his action, show change. >> you both make a good case. i like your case. i think that you're right. harry truman may be making a comeback here. thank you so much, congressman kucinich and congressman cohen. thanks for coming on. have a happy thanksgiving. up next, are republicans trying to sabotage the s.t.a.r.t. treater humiliate the president? one guy is standing up making here, keeping peace with the former soviet union with the russians, what is going to here? what's wrong with compromising

for safety? anyway this is "hardball." only on msnbc.

well, one former presidential candidate's made up her mind about 2012. secretary of state hillary clinton remains namer she will not run for president again. that's by fox news sunday, host chris wallace about persuing the presidency, clinton says she's very happy with what she's doing and is not in any way interested in public office -- or elected office, rather. recently secretary clinton brushed up similaraustralia. "hardball" will be right back. [ both ] and nothing came out. instead of blaming me, try new advil congestion relief. what you probably have is swelling due to nasal inflammation, not mucus. and this can help? it treats the real problem of your sinus symptoms, reducing swelling due to nasal inflammation. so i can breathe. [ mucus ] new advil congestion relief. the right sinus medicine for the real problem.

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we're back. there are some senate republicans holding up a nuclear arms treaty with russia just to keep fraums achieving a goal that even a long list of former republican defense secretaries and secretaries of state support? with us now "new york" magazine's john heilemann. let's watch the president. here he is in lisbon. >> i have spoken to senator kyl directly and i believe that senator kyl wants a safe and secure america, just like i do. and is well motivated. so senator kyl has never said to me that he does not want to see s.t.a.r.t. ratified. he hasn't publicly said that he's opposed to the treaty. what he said is that he just felt like he -- that there wasn't enough time to get it done in the lame duck and i take him at his word. >> this has come out of nowhere for a lot of us and we think about the most important issues in the world and one might be

avoiding the still possible of some kind of nuclear exchange between united states and the former soviet union. john heilemann you're shaking your head but this is big casino, to say the least. why is one senator standing up against, what seems to be a decision by the american it's national security establishment, right and left, the joint chiefs, the secretary of defense, the secretary of state, the former secretary of state colin powell, henry kissinger, baker, everybody we can think of who studies these issues and has wanted the world to be avoiding nuclear war, a minimal goal for this planet, why is this one senator able to stand up and stop this thing? >> first of all, i'm not sure it is one senator. i think senator kyle is not working alone but with tacit encouragement of senator mcconnell and others. >> why? >> your question was very pointed. i think he is acting this way that republicans have learned over the course of the last two years is that opposing barack obama at every turn, even on issues where they might agree with him sub stan civil has paid political dividends.

the big difference between the current senator republicans and the list of republican gran des that you just showed up on the screen, all those republicans, those wise old men are no longer in elected politics. they are fundamentally focused on the national security and not focused on what's going to give the republican party political advantage. they are above politics. senator kyle is not, norris senator mcconnell. >> let me get to another possibility. kyle seems to be in bed with the neoconservatives, all those various committees they love to be involved with. is he just an ideal logon this? >> he is something of an ideallog. like john said, it is hard to believe he would be acting on his own without the tacit support of mitch mcconnell. >> is this part of the piece by piece destruction of the obama presidency? >> it is a small piece. that's what's interesting, chris. even the opponents of the treaty, a number of the conservative opponents say this

particular phase is too small to really be contesting. why fight over a reduction of the ceiling from 2200 warheads down to 1500, unless you are trying to make some kind of a partisan point. >> there is good verification going on in this whole thing too. >> verification is improved. remember reagan saying trust but verify. inspecters will be able to do more under this agreement. now, kyle is talking about skipping the lame duck session and pushing it back to next year, after they can hold more hearings to try to brief the new republicans in the senate. this is dangerous, very destructive to the process. >> i am no friend of vladimir putin. i don't know who is in this country. what are they going to think in the former soviet union when they find out that one senator from arizona, not the famous one but the other one, has held up what looks to be a state-of-the-art agreement between the united states and russia on avoiding any kind of nuclear problems down the road by reducing the weapons,

providing for certification, some modern nation for the people that are concerned about nuclear strength. i think this will be hard for history to write. this will be one of the barbara tuckman things, like world war i, how did this happen? >> i agree. what vladimir putin will think is that the president has been weakened on the world stage and that america is weakened. this treaty goes down, it is, in fact, going to strengthen the hand of putin. even from their perspective, this is probably an important thing to do, both on substantive grounds and political grounds. >> going to that point, again, it is a idealogical cross wire. if you are a neoconserve it have or conservative of any kind, you want stronger action against iran, afghanistan. the russians are off base, if we

querrey this deal with the russians, that doesn't help anybody with an aggressive foreign policy mode. >> that's right. that's the position of robert okaying and max bood, neoconservative stalwarts on foreign policy say this particular phase is not worth fighting over. there is too much potential damage and too little gain for either side. >> it looks like it is dead in the water now. we are not going to have a new start. >> not until the next few months. >> john, we have a republican congress coming in, more republican senators, the democrats would need with republican help, 67 votes for a treaty. will they get it next year if they do get it next year? >> if it doesn't happen this year, i don't foresee it happening next year. >> is that what kyle wants sm. >> i think that's what kyle wants. this is a really greatest case. president obama, the statement you just played, he is doing what he wants to try to do. reach out and give republicans a

chance to cooperate. he is learning they don't see any incentive to do that. >> republican voters ought to begin to pay attention. this is more important than politics or bringing down obama. this is about the safety of this planet. thank you, both. have a nice thanksgiving. let me finish with thoughts of what sarah palin brings to a presidential campaign, what we need to see from her if she is to be taken seriously. during our season's best sales event. and receive the gift of asphalt. experience the cadillac of crossovers, the striking srx. it's the one gift you can open up all year long. see your cadillac dealer for this attractive offer. backed by the peace of mind that only comes from cadillac premium care maintenance. the season's best sales event. from cadillac.

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let me finish tonight with sarah palin. i've never met her. the down side of that is, i lack the full picture. does she come off as phoney or real in person? i can't tell you. here is what i can tell you, she has got a dynamite instinct for the stage. i mean it as a real compliment. she knows the connection between the figure up there under the lights and the guy or woman down in the crowd. she can connect back and forth, nanosecond with the audience. that's goes for television too. she loves the tube and there is no reason why barack obama should have so easy a challenger next time as sarah palin. we were a great country and should have, at least try to have great leaders. she should show us some hard informed thinking about where the country has to go or stick to the sha stick she has been offering so far. enjoy life f