you. a bit of a test of support going in on in our government. the senate holding a key vote on the president's tax deal with republicans. how to help main street while wall street rakes in profits for the second year. we'll talk to jim webb about it. plus, a developing fight over obama care. a judge declaring part of the law unconstitutional igniting a battle that will be decided in the supreme court. also, a live conversation with representative charlie rangel, his first msnbc interview since he was censured by his colleagues in congress. the show starts right now. happy monday to you, everybody, as we speak, a

critical test vote is underway in our senate. this on the president's tax cut deal with republicans. the measure expected to pass despite known anger from democrats who hoped to see tax cuts for the wealthy expire. senate republicans also expected to support the deal despite the fact that the package, the entire thing paid for with money borrowed against the future of our country. the outcome more uncertain in the house, many democrats ins t insisting the deal is unacceptable. >> this bill in its current form is unacceptable. it will come to the floor in some form and be open to changes. >> on sunday, new york mayor michael bloomberg said that obama should tell the democrats to get over it. >> he says, look, this is what i did. this is the best i can do. sublg it up and let's get on

together. >> this whole fight about how to best boost the american economy and create jobs on main street. meantime, while main street continues to suffocate, wall street times have literally never been better thanks to your american tax subsidies, whether it's the trillions out of the federal reserve or billions out of our tax coffers. '09 and 2010 shaping up to be the best 24-month period in the history of the investment banks. good to have the country supporting you. we are joined by senator jim webb. he supports this deal, but has been an outspoken critic of the dysfunction in our banking system that continues to yield itself out, but let e's start with the tax plan. welcome back. how does the tax plan like this soup to nuts, help create more jobs in america and why is this a good thing to do through that lens?

>> well, i think it's a good thing to do because the first thing i would say is that the president has really stepped up and shown leadership here. i've been waiting for him to do something like this, it's going to increase the bush tax cuts. there are a lot of democrats not happy with that extension, but it's going to put a lot of money into the hands of people who are going to go out and spend it and recycle that money and help out our economy. we've got a 13-month extension of unemployment benefits. we've got to fix, some don't like it, but on the estate tax. i think in toemt given the realities, this is something we needed to do. >> how do you balance the risks of adding a trillion dollars to the deficit and the fact when people spend money, it's leaving our country going to chinese coffers and elsewhere. that the framing, while right in

spirit and practice because of where the money is going, whether it's the wealthy tax cut money that goes to invest overseas or the consumer money to go out of our country, sounds good, but doesn't give us the bang for the buck we would like. >> i share a lot of those concerns. i've spoken about economic fairness, our balance with china, but when you look across the philosophical spectrum, there are arguments in favor of greater stimulus. when we voted the first package, i was meeting with a japanese ambassador who was warning we hasn't put enough into our economy to get things going again. first inkrementes were going really, i think to the wrong end as you just said. the t.a.r.p. program was a massive bailout of the financial institutions. we thought this was going to free up, take the toxic assets out and free up liquidity, but i

didn't get down to where people were going to spend it. that's, to me, the difference in this approach. we've putting money into the hands of people who are going to recycle it into the economy. >> my next question on the tax side, isn't that already the case? in other words, it's not like this is a new stimulus if leaving this money in the hands of the consumer was the road to prosperity, would we not be seeing the fruits of that since really all the president is doing is extending something already in place? this is not going to be some new catalyst. >> well, there are a couple of new pieces in here. one is the 2% reduction in the payroll tax. is other is the idea that you've got 100% write-down on business equipment. and also the 13-month extension on long-term unemployed, where we know that that's the money that will immediately go into the economy because these people need that money for their

basics. it's not perfect, but i think those are measurable differences. >> and the distinction is noted on my part. let's talk about stimulating the economy by subsidizing our banking system. whether it's the federal reserve, i'm a trillion five in new money between the fed and congress, but again, from the fed's perspective, they continue to subsidize a banking smm that yields tremendous profits, has a similar system of high frequency trading, they have a particular mechanism to take lending out of our country to china, to brazil, to india. nothing wrong with it. i just don't understand why the american taxpayer is the one responsible for subsidizing a system of high frequency trading and lending to other countries. i direct this to you in the context of which you are a man

who has aggressively tried to fight this. one of the few who has said, we cannot allow these bonuses to be continued to be paid out. it's clear you understand what a huge liability this is. when you look at all of this in the context of a poll that shows 71% of americans say, ban these bonuses, how do you explain the political disconnect of the american people understand, you understand, i understand and yet, the policies couldn't be more contradictory. >> i fully agree and my frustration level on this is really high. there's a difference between what's happened in the financial sector and people who were able to go out and produce something and make a profit. when we started with this t.a.r.p. program, it was $700 billion that the american taxpayer as you say over and over again, the nurse, the truck driver, taking money out of

their pocket to stabilize our system. that was the purpose of it. not to reward these people. they kept the money. i introduced wind fall profits tax. the idea i got out of the financial times, basically saying you can get your compensation. get a $400,000 bonus on top of that. and anything above that, you know, until we get this straightened out from who bailed you out, you should give it back to the american taxpayer. i think that's fair and i think that's why people are angry. they don't see the fairness in the system right now. >> last question. speaking of fairness or unfairness. one of the great debates with health care has been the fairness of the national mandate to purchase health care is part of the obama health care reform. a conservative judge in your home state ruling that mandate is unconstitutional. your thoughts on that ruling and the road forward. >> i'm a big believer in the balance of power and in the right of the judiciary to weigh

in on the constitutionality of what the congress has done and what the executive branch has done. i prefer to let this play out in the courts and which ever way it goes, the congress will either kopt to march or adapt. >> senator, can't thank you enough for your efforts to correct the american banking system. thank you, senator. >> thank you. >> jim webb. a huge week for us here on "the dylan ratigan show." it's the official kickoff of our steel on wheels tour. a cross-country effort, quite simply, to bring jobs back to america, to bring innovation back to america. our first stop is this wednesday in seneca falls, new york. the town that not only served as the inspiration for "it's a wonderful life," but serve as the birthplace of the women's suffrage movement. we've got great guests to talk about, reigniting the resilient

spirit. among our guests, carolyn grimes and then from seneca falls, we're on to philly, where our founder fathers gathered hundreds of years ago and where we've been working to try to narrow the gap of these founding fathers and whatever the current reality of our country is and the gap obviously between the ideals of fairness that have been consistent in this country. our final stop on the first leg of the tour is the gateway to the west ft st. louis, missouri. under the famed arch itself. we'll introduce you to innovators who have adapted the frontier spirit represented by that arch to solve america's modern day problems in america's modern day frontiers. it's a huge week and we do hope that you will share some of this journey with us. not only on the show, but on the web and through the series of town halls coming in the months to come. coming up here, today, on "the

dylan ratigan show," a federal judge strikes down part of the obama health care law. what does happen next? we'll talk about it with our monday megapanel. plus, did the president really benefit from trotting out president clinton to sell his policies? we'll discuss it with the panel. we're back after this. [ coughs ] [ breathes deeply, wind blows ]

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welcome back.

the tax cut deal did clear the 60-vote mark. role call continued. it looks like the obama tax cut deal will clear the senate. we'll see what happens in the house. federal judge in virginia today declaring that part of obama's health care law is unconstitutional, specifically the individual mandate to purchase health insurance. judge hudson saying the government does not have the authority to force all americans to get health insurance. the judge's ruling in favor of the lawsuit filed by virginia's republican attorney general. take a listen. >> this case is not about health insurance. it is not about health care. it's about liberty. >> the decision with no immediate impacts since that part of the health care law doesn't go into effect until 2014, all parties involved say that the issue will be decided by the supreme court and of course the ruling says nothing about the substance of the law,

which leaves health insurance monopolies in tact, breaking up profits and jacking up rates. you have a monopoly employer based health care system costing you a small fortune and that is the big issue. joining us is our monday megapanel. sam sedar, tim carney. senior political columnist and ana marie cox. sam, where is this headed? >> i guess to the appellate courts. this is one out of 15 decisions founded. there were 14 others that were either in favor of finding health care constitutional or rejected. i've got to imagine it's scaring health insurance companies. >> why? >> if you don't have a mandate everybody joins, but you can't jekt people for preexisting

conditions, this is going to be debilitating for the health insurance industry and i have no problem with it. >> that goes without saying. >> i think so. >> what do you think? >> the insurance company, their first bid was, if you make it mandatory that people buy health insurance, we'll stop excluding people. >> that was a deal. >> that was the deal. >> and in favor. >> to have the -- without the crow now, they're in trouble. i agree the federal judge. the idea that the constitution allows the federal government to mandate people to buy health insurance is propostrouse. >> the commerce clause doesn't regulate activity. it regulates economic choices. the case load i saw you were looking this up, says what's it's about is that an individual cannot opt out of the interstate commerce system. the federal government can mandate participation.

>> this is mandating -- what you're talking about here, it's currently illegal on the most part, to buy health insurance across state lines. you're cracking down on noninterstate noncommerce. >> participation -- >> substantial impact on interstate government. >> to take this to a higher altitude, is the issue, is that it's really expensive to provide health care to human beings in this country. now, we can debate why it's so expensive. i talk about the health insurance monopoly period as being a gouging mechanism. also the fee for service. whether you're a republican or democrat, aren't they running into trouble here with the fact it's still really expensive? while they've created the coverage and there will be this debate about the mandate, they have not addressed the fact this

is really expensive. >> you're right. they have not addressed that. that was one of the many things the obama administration sort of got out, escaped addressing with this so-called compromise on health care. they didn't have to address that at all. >> wasn't the reason people don't have health care because it's so expensive that a lot of people can't afford it and that it's provided nd of what kind of job you have. >> a different way to have thinking about health care. we don't any of it as a right, which most do. if you think of it as a right, cheaper. >> in many respects, what it does do is gets closer to that point of enshining it as a right. i've heard people discuss this as something everybody gets into the barrel. and then as it goes over the waterfall as it were, that's when you start to deal with costs. once you establish that it is a right, that's when it becomes easy. >> i don't want to get in.

got to be a better way than going over niagra falls. >> i don't see what -- means to say. i don't see what it even means to say that health insurance is a right. i guess what it means -- >> care. >> it means i have to pay for somebody else's health care. if we want to talk about costs -- >> just like paying for someone else's education. >> i have to pay for someone to protect your property. >> you draw the line in a different place. >> the point you mentioned, the em employer based health care, it's a problem. they're depending it. sort of whittle away at the em employer-based health care. we're not paying for health insurance. we're not shopping for health insurance.

>> that's not necessarily a good solution either and not a way other countries, if they have universal health care don't usually look at it that way. >> if we care about costs, have it be price sensitivity. >> if we really cared about cost, we would go with nationalized, single payer health care. >> have those long lines -- >> but the point is, if we're america, if we believe we want to have the most efficient, highest output health care system in the world, we spend more than anybody else in the world now, we just get a crappy result. you don't have to adopt any other model, but you might be able to invent an amazing american model that improves on those and still solves the problems. >> but it's not probably not going to be em employer-based. speaking of scores points and making money off the health care

debate. cuccinelli -- attorney of -- attorney general for general that filed this, he's already making money off this. he's doing ads, making money. saying he's a defender of liberty. >> i'm a big fan. >> i am not. >> you're down with the cooch. you know who's done with bill clinton is president obama. you do know this, but let's remind ourselves of how friday afternoon went in this country. >> here's what i'll say is that i've been keeping the first lady waiting for about half an hour, so i'm going to take off. >> i don't want to make her mad. please go. >> you're in good hands. >> help me. thank you. >> i don't know whether to share my opinion or go to you guys first. i suspect we'll be in some version aagreement, but it appears to me that there's no

upside to diminishing yourself as a president than by bringing a former president in to sell a popular policy. whether it's bush bringing his father in to sell the war or you can come up with a million vergs of this, is this a way as a communications manager, we're bringing in a former president which diminishes the -- in this case, president obama. >> i would have much rather be handed off to bernie sanders, frankly, but the only other thing i can say without totally agreeing, obama seems to be a very confident guy. it's hard for me to imagine someone else with that type to have security. >> at least he didn't send bill back to deal with it. that would have been another opg. >> to go to the white house rhetoric, we have a

communications problem. people don't understand us. that's why we have an issue. how does bring ng a former president which diminishes the president, how does that make for better communications for the obama white house? >> it makes for worse. admitting you have a problem doesn't solve your communications problem. it's possible to have both the policy problem and communications problem and another thing, i don't think your average voter like wants to hear about communications problems or solving them. they just want to hear about the policy. if clinton does a better job than obama explaining the policy, that's one thing. i'm not sure that happened. what we saw was a weird, weird dynam dynamic. i criticize washington reporters all the time for this, but the headline was just how weird it was. it wasn't like an clinton made these great points, it was why

did they have -- >> there is a way to use a former president to help sell a policy. >> what do you think of -- we need bill clinton to communicate? i'm sorry, you may like bill clinton's policies, his economy, but one of the ways he remember him as a man who lied and an expert at spinning. maybe barack obama is saying his problem is that he doesn't spin well enough. >> don't we remember bush as a man who lied? >> and president romney's not going to call in george bush. >> fair enough. >> is this a big enough deal to warrant bringing in the big guy? what else do you bring him in for? >> is this a reflection of the fact that the tax debate's a really big deal or the accumulated frustration in the obama white house at communicating and now, they're grasping at straws. >> it's hard to believe it

wasn't like bill clinton's idea. when ever i take a look at that picture, i think third-degree to come from him. a tom painting the fence sort of thing. >> what it does for me, it reminds me of one of the problems i've had with the maix. it's the same team from bill clinton's years. >> that did glass-steagall, the modernization act. >> a flashback to after the '94 election. this six years after he got his rear handed to him, he attacked. obama's trying to say, this is what i'm doing. >> he did do it for me. okay. >> just to end this panel on an optimistic note, lots of upside from here. we can do way better fer hemt

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metrodome's roof. gave way around 5:00 a.m., but no one hurt in that event. the only casualty was the viking's home field slaadvantag. jet's strength and conditioning coach, you're not going to believe this. playing the part of the grinch last night. watch this. >> watch the knee here. being stuck out on purpose to trip up nolan carroll. not sure who that is, but they should be ashamed of themselves. >> the line in america is cheat or compete as i said earlier, we know which side the jets' coaching staff comes down on. tripping an active player in the middle of a game? really? really? the coach, who has since apologized, but at least most likely receive a suspension and

a firm place on santa's naughty list. still ahead, our live interview with congressman charlie rangel, his first on msnbc since he was censured by his colleagues. but before that, what i learn frd the no labels launch here in new york and how we, together, can move beyond left and right to real solutions and real choices and real debates in this country about real policies. we're back with governor maldanado out of california. we'll talk about how he did it right after this.

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they make sure they don't have competitive races and as long as they are the ones that set the standards, i don't think you can expect much change. >> that part of our conversation

was a panel that i moderated today for a group called no labels. they met to bring together people to find practical sloughs to our problems. they are building chapters in all 50 states. both democrats and republicans viewed unfavorably by at least half of america. toward a more political movement that allows things like transparency. ultimately, could we see the tea party versus no labels come 2016. we're probably getting ahead of ourselves on that, but here to discuss with us is abel maldonado. he is one of the few politicians in america that has conceived, asserted, proposed and ultimately had the election go in his favor such that he could reform a closed primary system

that limits choice to create a more open primary system and t a pleasure to have you back. congratulations, when we spoke, it was in the works. >> you did a good job today. >> thank you very much. why is what you did in california such a big deal for this country? >> it's important because you start getti inting politics to thinking about the state. you change the behavior toward what's good for california. >> i'm a politician, i can run inside a closed system or open one. >> it's easy. talk to the party box. they give you direction. follow a sheet and at the end of the day, do the republican two step and it's the same for the democrats. i'm grateful that nancy jacobson and mark mckinnon started this because people want people with solutions and ideas. this notion of growing parties instead of the economy's got to go away. >> if the traditional mechanism

is dylan goes and befriends the party boss. he wants to become a politician. gets in good with those guys. >> in a closed primary system, you're in. >> how are the demands different? >> in california, they're a little different. you run for office and the top two vote getters get to go off. they get to be two democrat, two republicans and the largest voting block in the election, they get to choose one of the best two candidates. open minded, reasonable and pragmatic. that's what we need. >> why do you think that? >> i've e seen it in the past. in 1996, we had an open primary and we had more of a legislature that would come together. my mother and father said never compromise on your principles,

but don't be afraid to come up with a principled compromise. >> and why is it so important that we have a more competitive system for politicians? >> i think it brings people that really have their state at heart. their country at heart. right now, what we have is a situation where we have party at heart. that's okay to a certain extent, but people are tired of that. we need politicians that can go to washington. go to state houses around america and they go up there and vote their heart, vote their conscious and their districts. right now, we're not having that. >> am i wrong in looking at the contemporary policy debate and this tax cut deal as a classic example are good for the -- but it's unclear whether these tax cuts with a trillion dollars in borrowed money. >> you need to look in the mirror and see what's right for

america. right now, obviously, you're getting -- to tow the line. it works in some places, but most of america, it does not work. >> beyond making more competitive primary, how important is it that we engage the aspect of gerrymandering? and the fact that i can draw all these funny little lines that make it for the republican party, a huge percentage of their seats are royally sort of granted to them. and for the democratic party, they've got royal granting of their seats and in a really competitive elections, there aren't that many seats up for grabs. >> how can you have a group of politicians get in a room and design how they can choose the people? in california, we did away with that. we heard today in in florida, they're going to do away with that. the biggest is the nonpartisan primary.

that's the game changer in america. >> it's a real pleasure to have you back. lieutenant governor abel maldonado, a man trying to make american elections more competitive, more transparent. we really appreciate it. chris matthews will have much more on the movement coming up. he'll be talking to charlie crist, who was on the panel. but first, congressman charlie rangel joining us to discuss life after censure and what our politicians can do to restore the broken trust with the political trust that has become the american way of late. of vitamins, fiber, or minerals. and who brings you more natural colors than campbell's condensed soups? campbell's.® it's amazing what soup can do.™ [scraping] [piano keys banging] [scraping]

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breaking news. the president will make a statement from the white house briefing room in 25 minutes. his comments in reaction to the news reported to you this hour, the senate reaching that critical 60-vote mark. of course, its fate in the house is undetermined. as we turn our attention here to another conversation. a week and a half after being censured by his colleagues, charlie wrangle is now looking forward to beginning his next term. it will be his 21st. he's also working to rehabilitate his reputation. he's doing so in a congress that has seen its lowest rating in

years. only 17% say they like the job lawmakers are doing and any sort of trust polling continues to come in extraordinarily low. congressman wrangle joins us now. >> good to be here. >> i'm interested to talk to you about the overall optics and trust with the government an the people and how you view your role having been through what you've been there and we won't even get to if it's been done, but having been through what you've been through, how can you take that and use it as some form of currency to lead reform in this congress in the process that will begin anything like something that would restore trust? >> i think it's pretty well accepted that if you were to go in my district and ask the people, what do you think about

the congress, they'd say very little. if you'd ask about they think about charlie wrangle, i got over 80% of the vote. >> which is typical for a lot of pligs. >> no question about this. a lot of my censure hood to do with -- quite frankly, while i was surprised and hurt, once it got out there and people had to vote on the integrity of the congress, it wouldn't have made any difference if it was expulsion. so, i don't like to see people's careers be damaged by this frig frig frightenous of the congress. as it relates to what you refer

to as my legacy, the ethics committee gave it to me. i asked for this investigation and they gave me more answers than i wanted. the bottom line is that -- has not been guilty of taking anything or violating any laws. he is guilty of sloppyness and overzealousness. is that wrong? you bet your life it is. have i paid for it? i would say i've paid dearly for it. i invite people to look at my website at the allegation lgss and charges, then the sanction. >> isn't there a bigger issue here that has nothing with the charlie rangel, the rhettethics the given politician, but a country that has a tremendous

amount of spending inside its government, a variety of systems from trade to tax code to health care, that clearly do not provide high output, high impact results for the american people in a sense that the american congress is not trustworthy to solve those problems? it's easy to say, charlie rangel, he's a crook. we censured him, but that doesn't solve the government's relationship with money, the industry and the people fundamentally. don't you have an opportunity to address that in this next session? >> i wish i did, but quite frankly, if you take eight out of the allegations of 11 allegations, it all comes from one event and that event was asking people to consider to contribute to the city college of new york.

so, it would be hard pressed that had i asked for a waiver, there would be at least three allegations there. my whole point is that i would encourage people to go to the private sector to encourage people to talk about the importance of education and i'm just so frightened with the fact we're not competitive with other countries. and so, my whole thing, overz l overzealo overzealous, breaking the rules, has been education, education, education. how can i take that and turn the congress -- >> but what i would say is with the unique reputation alec wiity that you have, you are in a position to acknowledge the american people, have i done wrong? yes, i have. are there things done wrong in this congress every day? you bet they are. am i not going to take up with issue of distrust in the process of the legislative chamber and

attempt to cultivate a mechanism to restore that trust through advocating transparency in those processes. >> dylan, you have really raised the question that i will seriously consider. i really thought tax reform and education getting kids out of afghanistan. my only hesitancy is that as you relate it to the congress, judging the conduct of its members, it has never been this partisan. i have never seen the hatred that on the floor and i have never seen friends that would say, i wish i could help you, but i can't get my committee assignment. but i promise you, if we get back in two or three months, that i will discuss with people that want to see that, but if you start off not trusting each other, it's a real rough problem, but what you're saying

is right. you cannot function unless people trust you. you cannot even have a compromise on this important tax thing if you go to the table waiting for others to make a mistake that you can capitalize on politically. it's a big job. i'll step up the plate. i think you want me to throw out the first ball. >> i do. >> but i can only tell you that it hasn't been raised. i'm still licking my wounds, but i really have to make certain that i get the hi p hypocrasy o this thing. it's a bad year for the republicans, hey, it was a bad year for the democrats, but it's worth giving it a try. and i would suggest, too, i don't think that religion has played as important a role on the morality rate of the congress as it should.

i really think when people don't get food stamp, don't get extensions of unemployment compensation, kids don't get an opportunity to finish school because they came here from a foreign country, but it will not hurt the congress to have a little more morality involved rather than politics involved and i'm prepared to do more than my share. god knows i've had a break in life. and if i have to pay dues my avoiding this with other people, especially younger members, i'll be there. >> i think you have a unique set of equity. >> i think you're right, especially to younger members who don't know what's it's like and there are obligations that can happen if they make mistakes. >> it's a real pleasure. up next, what happened to that bill that would have given medical care to 9/11 responders? it's a topic of the "daily rant"

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while watch has been watching tax cuts another issue before congress facing an uncertain hate. >> it e never ceases to amaze me which causes americans choose to resers their outrage for. for instance, thousands are killed by those who text and drive yet while 400,000 have signed the no phone zone pledge, more than half a million have signed a pledge demanding to see president obama's birth certificate. while there were countless protests to building an islamic community center, there seemed

to be zero outrage last week when a bill to cover the medicare care of workers had -- the battle to pass the bill ended the same week a former detective lost his battle with a respiratory disease that plagued him since 9/11. according to "the new york times," one-third of the patients in the study showed less lung capacity, yet the victims find themselves caught in bureaucratic red trap. eligibility for the medical fund ended in 2003, years before many of the workers began showing systems. helping the brave men and woman who put themselves in harms way

to help our city recover from our greatest tragedy to be the one issue we can all agree on regardless of our party label, and yet it boggles my mind that people like sarah palin, mitt romney and others are so outraged by the comment the first lady made, are not outraged by this. but i guess there's no time or energy for them to be outrablged by the image of new york's bravest and finest struggling to live and die from a disease contracted by serving this country. >> do you think that it is more in some places than others or is it everywhere? >> i think that there's -- >> just because you mentioned palin and romney. who are obviously hypocritical. >> i think there's plenty to go around here. as you discussed in your previous