will they defie the president or accept his deal with republicans and do they have any leverage? their huddle comes as the president's plan moves closer to passage. >> we must complete the tax bill. we hope to do that as early as sometime this evening. >> we believe that what the senate will pass we hope today will be the framework for what is taken up and agreed quickly by the house of representatives. >> in the house, democrats still smarting about the tax cuts for the rich. they're also still fuming about the estate tax. as it stands now, the first 5 to $10 million will be exempt. >> members of our caucus feel very strongly about a number of of the proposals that came

through and certainly indicated in our caucus last week that we not vote for a measure in its you aren't corm. >> senate republicans say any changes to the estate tax framework could endanger the entire deal. joining us now, donna edwards of maryland. represent, a pleasure to have you. what leverage do you have against the republicans in the senate and the president to affect change? >> what's really cheer is that the message is still resounding from last week that even though the president and members of the senate have created a deal, it's still a bad deal for the american public. the combination of the estate tax plus giving tax cuts to millionaires is not going create jobs. the democratic side, extending unemployment benefits, making sure we extend the earned income

tax credit, those things that benefit working people are a good deal, credit jobs and stimulate the economy, but there's not justification for what's taking place on the other side. >> regardless of your point of view, when you look at the republican presence to block changes in the senate, you look at the white house's and president's decision to go along with the republicans on this, is there anything in real life that the democrats in the house can do to altar this legislation or is it really just a lot of sound and fury that ultimately can't affect change? >> i think the door is still open on the change. this is a process. the president has said that. our leadership has said that. the deal is not done until it's signed by the house of representatives then on to the president. i still have a lot of hope that going into our caucus still hearing from the members of the democratic caucus and not jus

progressive member, about what the tax deal would do to the american public and saddle us for generations, that there is still an opportunity to make it more palate abl than it is now. >> what do you think is most exchangeable? >> i think clearly, the estate tax. not even a reason it should have been added to what was essentially a tax cut proposal and extending unemployment benefits on top of the fact that obviously of all the money it adds to future general races and on the backs of them. i think there's an opportunity on the estate tax, there was already an agreement between republicans and democrats about the estate tax, didn't take it to estates at 5 and $10 million. >> if you were to look at the stimlative aspects of this policy, borrowing trillions from future generations and giving tax cuts to people, if you look again, a string of different

studies and what is really stomachlative whether it's infrastructure spending, investme investment, tax cuts for wealthy people who take it offshore, why do you think the american congress continues to affect job creation stimulation that is not the highest impact? >> well, i think that you hit it. we know that unemployment is stimulation to the economy. we know spending on infrastructure is. we also know that investing in research and development and then coupling that with the manufacturing credit would stimulate the economy, but for ten years of tax cuts, those haven't created a single job across this county tru. in fact, if you look at the democratic side of the ledger, the president's side of the ledger, that's job creation, that's stimulation to the economy. but the tax cuts, the estate tax and those deals doesn't do it at all. i'm hard pressed to identify why

it is that this is the best bang for the buck and a good bargain for the person public because you could take about half of the cost of this package and create the same amount of jobs without tackling on to future generations, the cost of billionaire provision. >> is it fair to say that both the republican p party and democratic party when they're brokering deals and doing bipartisan negotiations with doing negotiations based on what is in the best interest of the democratic party, the best sbrens interest of the republican party and even if it is at the expense of america, that a good deal in washington, d.c. is a good deal for the plim parties that is had at the expense of the american people as this one is? >> just because it's a good deal and because it's been a bipartisan negotiation doesn't mean it's a good deal for the

american public. we can see that through so many things -- aren't going to create jobs at all and will harm our long-term sustainability. two year frs now, guaranteed, we're going to be revisiting this and then they'll be talking about extending the obama tax cuts. that's the danger here for democrats. if you look at what they've done with social security, which no one is is talking about, the payroll tax, that rather just giving the check for the american people, ip stead, we cut it out of social security. how do you make the argument that we're protecting the interest of recipients? it's a really bad deal for the american people and i don't the like the idea that the president was pushed up against the wall and that democrats in particular in the house and senate feel they have to go along with this, too, because i think in the long

run, we're all going the regret having given away tax cuts and tax benefits to the wealthiest americans without creating any jobs and with adding on to the nation's debt. >> and if the wealthy and pr privileged of d.c. are going to regret it, just imagine how the uneducated and undeveloped children of this country. it's quite a sight to behold. thank you for the time this afternoon and speaking of creating jobs in america, this week, we are at the start of something special, kicking off our steel on wheels tour. the campaign to start a jobs movement in this county tr. i ask for you help in this effort. we start tomorrow in seneca falls, new york. the town that inspired the classic "it's a wonderful life" and it is a perfect site to focus on restoring and celebrating the adaptive spirit that is america. thursday, from seneca falls, we move to philadelphia, the

birthplace of the constitution and a look at how we as a nation can fulfill the dreams of our founding fathers as we continue to fall short to so many of those ideals. friday, wrapping up this leg of the tour, the spirit of america going to st. louis. exploring how today's innovators are using the frontier spirit to tackle our toughest problems and create the industries of the future that not only create jobs, but also solve america's problems as opposed to keep powerful interests in their jobs. we are incredibly excited about this new opportunity. there will be lots of fun, digital aspects of this working with andrew jenks. i hope we can initiate the beginning of a real jobs movement in this county tr. up next, today here on the show, defending obama care. the administration filing an

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welcome back to develops news on the new health care law. the justice department saying it will appeal a new ruling that part of the law is unconstitutional. the appeal coming amid new resolution about conflicts of interest from judge henry hudson. the judge owns a piece of a republican consulting firm earning tens of thousands of

dollars over the last several years and that firm advocated against the law as it was being debated in congress. who says there's no conflict of interest? among the firm's clients, virginia attorney general, ken cuccinelli. you can connect the dots as well as anybody and you can't make it up. you could, but no one would believe you. this has no immediate effect as the individual part was ruled unconstitutional. doesn't go into effect until 2014. it's been ruled constitutional by two judges and this will probably be decided in the supreme court. joining us now, our world renowned, globally famous and widely respected e-team. from the west, karen finney.

a new righty at the table and one we're proud to welcome. former republican congressman from new york, rick. and our insider, the man who's trying to make america love their lobbiests. jimmy williams. steep hurdle, my man. if anybody can do it, it is you. we did the constitution. but, rick, how can the american people remotely trust their ledgislative judicial process when day after day after day there are large and small examples of this kind of nonsense. now, whether it affects the judgment or not, the appearance of impro prity that betrays the trust a judge has with their constituencies has no bounds. am i wrong?

>> it appears in this case and in cases like this that the best course of action is to disclose or recuse if it's a discloesure you have an opportunity for the depending parties. it's going to go up. but yes, should people have confidence in the judicial system that there are no other factors that may affect the decision, yes. >> okay. it's a good thing -- rick is right. there's a problem though. there's relatively little federal law dealing judges. meaning there's little law. >> could own a local laundry mat, she could sue the laundry mat for burning your clothing and i could rule in favor of the laundry mat and no one will know

that i own it. >> no, what i'm saying is the judicial conference comes up with the guidelines for federal judges. >> judging judges, is that what you're saying? >> correct. they are a self-governing body. >> like i say, the old white dudes in wigs set it up the way they did for a reason. >> so they could be free? >> now anybody can own land, it's just not free. >> the judicial congress is responsible for setting ethics rule. council can bring forward a motion before the court in they feel a judge has been biased against their clints. >> i get it, but we're in a point in time where the american distrust of the entire political process is at an all time high. charlie rangel was on the show

yesterday. the people working in chris dodd's office were buying financial stocks the time they were buying the bill. then you wonder why there's one political party that wants to burn the place to the ground and a bunch of people are totally disengaged because they fund mentally believe this is nothing more than a bunch of crap. when they see these stories, this is a corrupt republic run by rich people paying each other off and i'm not going to believe stupid dylan ratigan's nonsense about how this is the democracy because it's not. >> there's another fun little connection. the judge has admitted that becky donatelli was the one -- it's bad all around. one thing good i will say just

for the merits itself, clearly, i agree with rick. should have recused himself. however, what i think is important for the merits of the case, it does appear that even some conservative judges disagree with his legal martial rational and i think that's why the white house and department of justice has decided to file because it's important there are legal reasons why his rationale was not sound. not just that if politics that play into this are suspicious. >> i want to push back on this theory that people don't have faith in their democracy. the system does work. judges for the most part should recuse themselves -- the big problem is in the supreme court, frankly. you have scalia, one of the most senior justices in the court, sitting on a case in which his

friend, his duck hunting friend, is before the court. >> how do you say the system works? and reason to distrust -- >> when a judge is corrupt, i hate to say it, but the dirt always rises to the top. >> it doesn't. i wish it did. >> i disagree. one of the things you saw in this last election cycle, both sides claiming they understand what this mandate means. enormous distrust. throw these two people out. there two laws. one for the rich and powerful, one for the rest of us. charlie rangel, a lovely man. i got along great with him. i call him my friend. he should not be in that position. it is not right. it's why people are frustrated and angry and they lose faith that government can do the right thing.

>> which leads to more disconnected and more breakdown in the social contract that's imperative to sit at the table and solve a problem. >> what i can't wait for is for the house under chairman lamar smith of texas to impeach judge henry hundred dollars hudson for what he just did. >> should we be holding our breath? >> you could. >> but again, while the world turns, the political parties continue of course doing what they always do. at least the individuals societyuated with them and that is trying to keep their jobs at all costs. michael steele, hardly an exception to that. >> my style is a little bit different. my style is more grass roots oriented. i'm more of a street guy. i love hanging out in board rooms, but prefer to be in the neighborhoods and communities. >> so we know michael likes to hang out on the street.

what does that mean for the republican machinery? >> i tweeted to my republican friends, for us, it's good news. michael steele's really a joke. says he likes to hang out on the street. they have major debt and really, steele has no sort of natural constituency nor a plan. what i would argue and i have talked to my republican friends jealous of the 50-state strategy that howard dean put in place, steele trying to claim, well, we won while he was chairman, but you can't claim anything they did. i say democrats are happy to have him because he is the gift that keeps on giving. >> that's the american way. what do you think about all this? >> steele has got some good points to make. number wup, he picked up 60 plus

seats in the house of representatives. nancy pelosi is no longer speaker. republicans are in control. pick up seats in the senate. they have picked up more state seats than at any time in the history. two governors seats last year. a whole slew of governors this year. if it's about win, michael steele's got the ability to say i race money with republicans out of power and this was a huge republican year. >> with that said, going back to a comment you just made, if what we're really looking at is bad signalling, because the electorate is not able to express what they truly feel, which is a rejection of the incumbency, yes, you could interpret this as an endorsement of the republican agenda, but this continues to be an

indictment to both parties. >> i believe that's true and i think you have to be limited in the credit that you take for a big win like this. but the reality is the guy can -- he can make the case and also say, listen. during the time when we didn't have the white house, either of the house or the senate, we raised a bucket load of money and made a lot of races. >> raised from outside groups because we saw the dproups that formed this shadow rnc. the governor's races, i think barbour would take a lot of credit. >> rnc's 15 million bucks in debt. republican party, filibuster party. anytime i come on tv, i'm going to call them the filibuster party. they abuse it to the debtriment of the american people.

please election michael steele. i will join the rnc and i will vote for that guy. >> there you go. >> i will do it and i'll switch back to the democratic party if that's what it takes to get michael steele out there for two more years, running his mouth off saying dumb stuff every single day. makes me happy. if you do, guess what? we can only go but up. >> he might take you out to some strip clubs. >> court your vote. >> listen, the mesh american people houf their debt, the congress is out, let the rnc add 15 more million. >> why not reverse this. >> the debt? >> the whole concept of racing each other into the ditch to see who can suck the most. >> because the race to the bottom has better ratings than the race to the top. >> the treest and most --

welcome into this conversation. nice to have you and karen, always a delight and pleasure to see you. up next, uncle sam's failed attempt to help with home foreclosure. a new report says the government is falling far shorter of its goals and more americans are facing the prospect of being homeless for the holidays. we are back after this.

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slow you down. introducing bayer am. its dual-action formula delivers extra strength pain relief, plus it fights fatigue. so get up and get going with new bayer am, the morning pain reliever. new proof of what millions know all too well. the government's plan for preventing fore cloegs isn't working. the home affordable program pays lenders as an incentive, but the panel now fining that treasury has fallen short of its goals.

now exe pekted to prevent less than one fifth of the three to four million foreclosures treasury said they could achieve and a mere 5% of the foreclosures expegted by 2012. we spoke with ted cough mkaufma. i asked him what the treasury could do to fix the program now. >> one of the criticisms is that treasury all along, this is the fourth report the panel's written on this area. the first since i've been chair. in all, they stress the fact they needed more realistic goals for the program. treasury stock with the three to four million foreclosures as their objective when it was clear that wasn't going to happen. the problem you have now is after october 3rd, t.a.r.p. closed down and therefore you

cannot make any major modify cases in the program. we've asked for a number of things for them to do, but no, nothing can be done. >> so, where does that then lead the country from an xim standpoint when the banks are basically giant real estate holding companies that own these houses? the unemployment problem is driving foreclosure. it's because people don't have jobs because of the economic mismanagement of this country and you're going to have more and more people, families, children, being thrown out of their homes over the next few years and it would seem the government would be poorly adviced to stand by and let this happen. >> i think that's absolutely right and i think that you know, one of the things coming out how policymakers will say we have to look at our efforts in housing. the problem you have is that there's still a group of people

in this country, the government's just part of the problem. people say maybe the government should get out of the way and let the private sector operate. it hasn't operated in this area. you're right. i think real effort should be looked into coming up with a totally different way to approach the housing problem because until we get the housing pricing declined steady or stopped, and people and foreclosures increase stop and we stabilize housing markets, the economy's going to really get better for average americans. >> why is the government making the policy decisions for the benefit of the servicing bank over investors, over homeowners, over the economy? if you look at the policy decisions, treasury on down the line, it's very confusing why a very small group of banks who do

most of the servicing, that the decisions to be made for their benefit and to almost everybody else's debtriment. >> we talked about this on so many issues that that is a real concern. here, you know, you have that, you have that concern and it goes to i think the idea they're worried about the financial stability and banks. the thing that really disturbed me, treasury and fannie mae and freddie mac, they're the ones to administer this program. the one that the report is on. freddie mac said they weren't going to go after the servicers involved in the row bow signing because they had other interests with them. this is crazy. they're not actually using because they have so many interests. and this is really what we've talked about a lot in a lot of different areas. when you have the banks and the

consumers, you really have to be careful was most of the institutions in the banks are concerned about the banks. they're supposed to deal with the safety and soundness of the banks and that's why the consumer has been shortchanged so often. >> we thank chairman kaufman for his time this afternoon. still ahead here on the dr show. some job wars for you. why president obama should not be looking to corporate america for advice on creating jobs, but first, voyager one. about to go boldly where nothing has gone before. we're back with that after this.

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we're back with -- nasa saying the voyager one is now barrelling toward the edge of our planet's solar system. the force of the winds has

slowed to zero, which means it's approaching the mathematical boundary. once it's gone, it is truly on alien turf, which probably is why we packed it with some weird stuff for the aliens to discover were they to find it. on board is a golden record packed with vital information about us including data on math, equations, dna and human anatomy. perhaps the most interesting item, the following greetings from pran et earth in a variety of lang walgs. >> hello from the children of planet earth. >> now, we just need to hope that alien technology owns or has created a record player. just ahead, tackling america's debt. how did we get here and how do

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don't know what it means. sarcastic for sure and a little pessimistic, but what the heck with the sort of things we talk about. i guess i would om point to the fact that country has had all sorts of oppression from its beginnings from women, slavery down the line and like so many ohs, we have our free press, the vote, control over how we spend our money. we'll see whether we can organize in a way to make it mean something. if you've got something to share, tweet us your thoughts. let's turn our attention to the newest worries of the day about how that tax cut deal is going to affect our deficit because it's being paid for with borr borrowed money. the people paying aren't here, so they can go to hell.

but something often lost in the conversation, the national debt in this county tli has been a problem for the the better part of three decades. in 1981, reagan's first year, the debt was 32% of our gdp. by the time he left, it had risen to $52%. president clinton got it under control, however, they did supervise a huge bubble from world com and there's the nice way to boost the margins if you know what i'm saying. following the clinton administration who repealed glass-steagall and unleashed the banking bubble, bush came in along with president obama to bring the debt to a whopping 94% of our gdp. a lot of that driven by the

collapse in our economy and also the deficit exploded. you get economic dysfunction, banking trade, the economy goes down and here you are. joining us now, david stockton, director of budget in reagan's first term. now, he calls the bush tax cuts sb entirely unaffordable. >> going to where you started, we went into the oval office in 1981, our first job was to raise the national debt to 1 trillion. we had trepidation. today, 30 years later, it's 14 trillion. the economy is bigger, the national debt 14 times bigger. over the last three decade, we've done a leveraged buyout of

the american economy. now, i think we're getting close to the day of reckoning and what do we get out of the congress? a drum roll last week on we have the face the deficit, a christmas tree lighting, which will give away another trillion dollars of spending and mostly tax give aways that we can't afford that will extend the b biggest fiscal mistake in history, which was the original bush tax cuts. >> why do you call it the biggest fiscal mistake? >> if you roll back to that point, they were looking back ten years and said, $5 trillion surplus. here we are, two unfinanced wars later, if fed engineered housing boom, a bust and bouts and stimulus. we've ended up in that period with five trillion of deficits. nothing like this has been seen before. what are they doing? they're saying let's hurry up before we go home for christmas

and extend this thing another go years then bobby trap the budget with all these breaks expiring on election eve in 2012. we are destroying the economy on uncle sam's credit card in the idea it will cause consumers to spend for some more junk from home depot that's made in china doesn't make sense. >> when you look at the real problem in this country, a lack of investment, innovation, job creation, america is desperate for good jobs. whether it's this policy or any of the others, they have been great at enriching certain communities who have benefitted from the trade policies, the tax policies, the health care system. there are certain very powerful interests on both sides that make a ton of money because of

those things but it's really screwing up this country. when you look at what could be done, somebody in my shoes, a viewer, values of a coalition could be formed around to get these politicians to stop, is there anything that strikes you as worthy of activation? >> first of all, we have to understand where we are. in 2000, january of 2000, there were 72 million middle class jobs. manufacturing, construction, finance insurance, real estate, transportation distribution. today, there's only 65 million. we've lost 10% of our middle class family supporting jobs. we've only created part time, temporary jobs, so there's been no real growth.

what we've had instead is a fed engineered serial bubble that's created the appearance of wealth that has caused people to consume beyond their means through borrowing and has flushed the income and wealth of our society up to the top p as a result of the fed turning the financial markets into a casino. these are pure casinos. they are not capital markets. they are not adding to the productive capacity of our economy. they simply are a bunch of row robots trading the each other as a result of the fed giving them zero cost overnight money and all kinds of hand signals on what to front run. this is a very bad mess and we're not going to get our economy solved until we get a new policy at the fed and a clean-up of wall street. >> do you believe that reform

driving investment, that intervening on that, it will be difficult if not inpossible to create prosperity in this country? >> i think it will be. the fed is actually destroying prosperity by essentially funning demand that we can't support with earnings and production causing massive current account deficits and the flow of funds overseas and the build-up in china and opec and korea and elsewhere, a massive dollar reserves, that is totally unsustainable, unsupportable system. i think we're coming near the edge of where that can continue to remain. >> i got to let you go, but we have, are starting this steel on wheels tour around the country. it's the idea is to really catalyze a jobs movement in this country and jobs debate focused on rigged trade, tacks, banking and health care. we'd love to have your help.

obviously, you are so -- you get it. do you want to help us? >> certainly. >> thank you so much for the clarity of thought as disturbing as some of the thought may be. coming up on "hardball," is the former president the key to fresh start for president obama is this chris matthews will talk to pair of clinton insiders on the dynamic duo, if you want to call them that, and still fighting the job wars. can corporate america get the country back to work when the vast majority of jobs come from new businesses and investments, not old businesses that are making money through all the techniques mr. stockman was just describing. we're back after this. my doctor said most calcium supplements...

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tomorrow we're coming from seneca falls, new york. the first stop on our steel on wheels tour. three cities, three days from the dreams of our founding fathers in philadelphia to st. louis, we are looking at how we can create a new jobs movement in this county tr. a new confidence in america to address rigged trade, rigged taxes, health care and banking policy and we hope you'll come along for the ride as we try to catalyze this movement in this country and turning now to the job wars, what are the environments where jobs are created? well, the president's meeting tomorrow largely subsidized by

your tax dollars -- the president will push the exextives here to hire more workers, but some say is barking up the wrong tree. it is new businesses that are solving existing problems in new ways or ultimately enhancing the live of those around them in their communities -- for years to come and yet, our politicians refuse to drive policies that encourage the creation of new busine business. why is that? we're joined by carl sharm -- innovator and investor capitalism. it is a pleasure to meet you, sir. why are new businesses the job creators? >> it's been this way forever. it's a good thing that you start

with this reflection of the president turning to big businesses. the chief executive of every large business goes to work every day theying how to eliminate jobs. they've been very good at it. big companies are in the business of destroys jobs. if you start a new business all you have is people. it's self-evident. the preponderance of evidence tells us that new net job creation is in firms less than five years old. when you start a firm, all you've got are people. and in every case, these new firms are the place where new jobs are created. >> what is the environment taxwise structurally, as it could be affected by the government, i should say, that is more likely to encourage new businesses and do we have it now?

>> no, we don't. we have a structure very favorable to big business. in many ways, these are rent taking. they've got their lobbiests, special earmarks, special parts of tax bills cooked up to protect their market position. in economics, we call that rent taking. now, the small firms, the engine of growth in the society, they are where innovation happens. it's where job creation happens. where wealth creation happens. they have the struck l against a continuing tax code, continuous regulation that these businesses don't count for much. there's this, oh, yes, we like small businesses, everybody's for entrepreneurs, but we're not when we keep sending hostile signals that are very confusing and set uncertainty as the first condition an entrepreneur has to

look at. >> what would a set of policies that encourage new business look like? >> first of all, i think you'd have to say these businesses have to be protected to some extent when it comes to job creation. if a firm is creating new businesses, they get special tax treatment. the government has to send a signal that they really mean they're pointing to new businesses -- >> i hear from politicians every day, we're cutting taxes to create jobs. >> yeah, but those are taxes. the focus is on big corporate tax reduction. those are tax reductions that mean little to a fledging brand new business. they mean almost nothing to somebody who hasn't started their business yet. in the last few years, the government has con founed the signals in terms of the uncertainty. we have an unsettled tax

environment. can you imagine an unsettled tax environment, right? you don't know how much a new employ employee is going to cost you next year. we have a huge fight about whether or not health care reform's going to stand. do i take on an employee, can i keep that employee? how much is this employee going to cost me and is the real cost this year going to be radically different next year? with this, it creates an environment which may not be designed to be hostile, but functionally, it is not encouraging to business. >> how can we best advocate for more policies like the ones your describing? >> well, i think you know, we have to get an entrepreneur's movement going because no one really speaks for enter e