dignity of man and the destiny of democracy. >> i pledge to appoint a woman who meets the very high standards that i demand of all court appointees. >> a more perfect union than ideal we can achieve. >> today, live from philadelphia, our founding fathers began the work 200 years ago that continues to this day and where rocky balboa became a champion. the show starts right now. good afternoon from the national constitutional center right here in philadelphia. i am dylan ratigan and it is an absolute pleasure to greet you once again.

thanks for being here for day two of the steel on wheels tour. we got started in seneca falls, new york. our journey next takes us to the place where our founding fathers started -- we have been striving for since it began. slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights. our founding fathers fell short in reality even if not in ideal. and ever since, the people of this country have set the ideas of the founding and reality of our country on any given day. today, it's the fight for economic liberation, investment, job creation, prosperity, closing the crushing gap between the increasingly few wealthy and the rest who suffer at their

mercy as they control too much of our government. we can close that gap by ending rigged trading policies, by addressing the tax code and by reforming a crushing cost of the broken health care system. the road we're embarking on with this jobs movement will be long and winding and there will be many roadblocks in the way, i have no doubt. the entrenched interests who continue to profit is very powerful, but whether it be voting rights, civil rights or gay rights, the good news if history is any indication, we as a people have never backed down in the fight for a more perfect union and joining us now here at the national constitutional center today, dr. richardson dillworth. his late grandfather, a very popular mayor here in philadelphia.

also, dr. richard beamen, author of "plain, honest men: the making of the constitution." i'll start with you, doctor. how big was the gap at the beginning of this country between the ideas we all talk about and the reality? >> obviously, the gap was huge. whether it was savely, the denial of full citizenship to women. the gap was huge, but was already narrowing by the time the 55 men gathered in philadelphia down the street from us in independence hall to try to create a nation. >> am i wrong to try to emphasize how consistent moral progression had been in trying to close that gap? >> we were talking before we came up here.

i have a somewhat different take on the constitution. i think it was and even looking at those words now, sort of reenforces it for me. a very practical document. i think the phrase a more perfect union can be thought of in a number of different ways. i think arguably everyone would agree they were dealing with a highly imperfect union before under the articles of the confederation and that doesn't imply that it's going to be a perfect union. so, you know and i think if you look at the constitution debates at the convention, you see a lot of really practical people dealing with a lot of real specific bargains. perfectly willing to fight about slavery, but willing to make an imperfect bargain in the institution. >> the last word on this at the

convention, one of the wisest words ever uttered was by benjamin franklin, the oldest of the founding fathers. in a closing speech on september 17th, franklin obvioused that when you bring a group of men together for the benefit of their joint wisdom, you also bring together their passions, their prejudices, their selfish views, local interests, differences in religious opinion. how in the world can a perfect production ever be expected from such a gathering? now, that's been true from every gathering of politicians from that time forward, so the real question is how well did those folks stack up that summer in philadelphia via is way or current does. >> so how do you compare the kufrt nature compared to your view of history?

>> i'm a booster of the founding fathers. i am often deeply depressed by not just the partisan difference, but by the ranker and failure to find conciliation in our present moment. >> to what do you attribute that is this. >> first of all, i think that men like franklin were part of a political culture which valued conciliation in compromise. they did not have this egotism to believe they were capable of creating anything more than a perfect union. they knew they were going to fall short. my goodness, the month or more that they e spent on unsuccessful debates on slavery was proof positive for all to see. they were really committed to finding common ground and they did. >> but how much of the fact that let's take what you say as a

given. we won't debate it. if you look at that and take that as a given, how much of that, dr. dillworth, would have been the case if they had a bond market to borrow a trillion d l dolla dollars? if there wasn't a federal reserve, you get what you want, we'll borrow another trillion, it's not going to be a problem, would the forced conciliation, resolution, that you sort of harken back to have existed in your opinion if there was no such thing at a multitrillion dollar bond market where you could just lay it on the future? >> i have to say i think that alexander hamilton had interesting things to say about debt. he clearly thought debt was important for a variety of different reasons. number one for economic development, but also he had a moral position on debt and he

thought debt was a good way to constrain behavior. i think that he you know, he -- >> if you can print money, the constrain is lights out. if you were to look at the core issue that really was the founding of this country, having to do with its issues of economic oppression, of taxation without representation. how would you compare the economic issues today than of the country's founders? >> the issues they faced were not as complicated as they are today ch the country was emerging from recession, a recession caused by the disruption of the revolutionary war. the private economy in 1787 was actually rebounding quite nicely. they didn't have unemployment statistics in those days, but i would say in general, the

economy was moving upward at a pretty optimistic rate. the problem in 1787 was the impoverishment of government. the complete collapse of public finance, so men like madison and hamilton really did understand that government, there not only was a role for debt, but that there really was a role for government in the positive encouragement of investment. >> wasn't the ultimate catalyst the sense that the people were being harvested for their labor without a sense that the money being harvested was being used for society or their own live sns. >> so, this is the balancing act the founding fathers had to perform. they were all children of a revolution against arbitrary power. taking tax dollars out of their

pockets without their consent. they went into the convention with a hearty distrust of excessive government power. at the same time in 1787, they were dealing with quarrelling states erecting tariff barriers against each other. an economy and a nation in which the whole didn't equal the sum of the parts. a bad preamble. these are positive things that government does. establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty. this required an energetic government, so at the same time they were trying to restrict and balance power, they wanted to energize government as well. this is where the tea party frankly has got it all wrong. they did not think of government as the enemy to the people. they thought of the government as one of the great promoters. >> a pleasure, thank you for

educated myself and some of our audience as well and engaging us in this con ver sag. the constitution gets thrown around a lot. i think it's beneficial for us to get a better sense of its intent and that it is a living document and that places like this do exist and that men like you exist that are here to enjoin a current debate of how to interpret this. more to come from philadelphia. steel on wheels, day two, including the big news today out of washington, d.c. the president presenting his new review of the war plan for afghanistan. plus, no city left behind. how about that idea? how philly and other communities across this country are adapting to a changing economy. a distressed economy, so that they can find a way to thrive as they deal with so many forces beyond their own control. we'll talk to pennsylvania

governor ed rendell in the moments to come. also, how we got the parks service to agree to loan us the liberty bell. oh, yeah, we've got it, baby. we're back after this. ♪

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we're back from philadelphia looking to mix it up on the big

news of the day from the past to the present if you will and the president today saying we're on track to start pulling out of afghanistan in july. that's the headline from the white house review of the war now in its tenth year. >> progress comes slowly and at a high price. >> there have been, there will continue to be obstacles and stet backs. >> but as a result of the tough fight underway, the taliban control far less territory than they did a year ago. >> the review says the military remains on schedule for a troop drawdown and that the efforts have stopped taliban growth and bolstered troops capableties. last we checked, the al-qaeda cells are hanging out in pakistan. joining us, jonathan capehart and david weigel, both msnbc

contributors and of course two of our favorite panelists. nice to have you. look at this place. >> fantastic. >> you can sign t. >> are you staying? >> we got to hang out with the kids and do constitutional stuff. what are we talking about here? >> remember when the president gave his speech at west point a year ago, he said starting july 2011, we're going to start the drawdown of troops in afghanistan. 30,000 additional troops. now, this, and he mandated that the leaders of this come back to him in a year and present him with an assessment. this is what we're seeing for the first time and as i think we all pretty much figured, it was going to say, yeah, things are kind of good. >> but isn't the problem pakistan? while we've talked about it and had generals and experts through this show and many others who

have said they're hiding in pakistan, coming into afghanistan, is this the first time we've seen at the level of hillary clinton and secretary of defense, and acknowledged that the problem really is pakistan? >> we're seeing more of that. more of a move as talking about this as a counterterrorism problem. joe biden had been saying this and look at from the report. it's about pakistan. it's about these areas of pakistan where according to what we know, we're working just fine with those people in the travel regions. that's not what we've been hearing from everyone else and less about rebuilding afghanistan. if you're reading between the lines, we have not met the objectives that we set. >> when this was announced, the goal was 2010 was going to be the year we break the taliban. we were going to control outside the green zone. if you read the language now, it's we've made significant

progress towards breaking the taliban. in the way they talk about terrorism, they're talking about decapitated al qae-qaedaal-qaed means drone strikes. >> you don't hear about rebuilding afghanistan or anything like that. what you do read is a much more explicit importance of pakistan within this effort. >> there's always appear that you can identify the problem, but can't solve it. >> the reason why everyone's focused on pakistan, silently last year, more publicly, is because pakistan has the bomb. if you've got a weak pakistan, then who knows where those weapons will go and that's been the major concern. that's why everyone when they talk about afghanistan, the ricochet is pakistan. the one upside is that they're finally talking about the

importance of pakistan here. >> i was just enjoying listening to you, you kind of looked like a founding father. behind you, you don't realize, there's all the scripture. it looks good. you as well, but he just had the bow tie. >> has the sweater. next, the tax cuts deal hitting a snag in the house. democratic leaders insisting final action will happen tonight. some particularly on the lawmakers side angry over the estate tax. something that could not be less in keeping with the ideals in this country. others fuming over the nearly trillion dollar price tag. the bond market is a friend to any politician who wants to give eye away future generation's

money. more americans have grown frustrated with kicking the can down the road. we saw that emotion on vivid display at the town hall last night at the university of rochester. >> you're going to throw me out after this. >> how dare you blame these kids for the mess we made? then we look to them and say, fix it. you can't fix it. there's taking jobs out of this country as fast as you create them. why? cheap labor. simple. >> is his indictment of the current power sthukture right on? is it accurate? they're we're making a mess that preserves the power structure and we're saying to the kids, fix it. >> i think there's more reality on display there than in congress right now. polling we've seen says people support this deal.

they hear about the contours. maybe don't pay attention. they are told this is another thing, maybe will cost a lot of money. it is a thing that might prevent the economy from getting worse. i think that shows more the entrapment that people feel about the way things are going and the control and leverage that we have over it. this is another plan that increases the deficit and people don't know what to do. there's not a lot they're g getting from washington. a part from three days when they were talking about it. >> you know, yeah, folks look at this and say, let's do it because if we don't, all hell will break loose. >> then when you look at the nbc news "wall street journal" poll, what do you think about the deficit commission, we're for it. yeah, they want to do it, but

then when you say here's what it means and how it's going to impact you and i guarantee you the numbers of support would plumet. i don't think the american people are ready and fully knowledgeable of all the cuts, cutbacks and tax increases that are going to have to happen if we're going to dig ourselves out of this very deal hole. that's because no one on capitol hill is willing to be the adult con ver sag. >> but corky's point was, cut all you want, but if you don't address the trade policies that are not fair, if you don't address the banking policies that are not fair -- >> that's part of being an adult. >> you have to build your way out. >> right, this is part of the adult conversation. it's not just taxing and cutting. it's changing, as you've been saying and sorry to cut you off, david, but changing the fundamental way this country does business. >> i think you're hearing more

people talk about the economy and long-term structural problems in that way. it's not fair to pass this on to our kids. that's a very positive thing you've heard. even if you're a liberal, you've got to be enthusiastic about this now. i realize i have a good welfare state, low taxes and a lot of the things i've enjoyed, i don't know if i can sustain this and we need to think about cutting back. what we need is for people to start in january, i look at this tax cut deal as a way to get to a more serious debate about tax reform that not everyone's going to like. about getting rid of loopholes that some people like. we're going to cut the payroll tax for two years. that's going to prevent republicans from talking about entitlemen entitlements, and that's painful. can we afford the entitlements we have right now? >> but can we move from talk to action? i mean, the deficit commission is great.

it's talk and it came up with some serious solutions, but can we then move into action? this was the republican plan from the beginning and the moment president obama said, hey, i'm for it, they said, forget that. >> you could feel the emotion in that little clip from the town hall last night. we've seen this emotion in the town halls during the health care debate, but this emotion is still very real and can be a huge catalyst for change because people get a degree of motivation to engage, or it can be very dangerous. it can get people to truly disengage or look for again, other less pleasant way to vent that frustration. >> as they are doing in london, in rome, moscow, greece. i think the american people have shown washington basically since the 2000 collection, that they're upset with what's

happening there. we saw it in high relief in 2006, 2008, pennsylvania, massachusetts, new jersey, 2010 and if folks in washington don't wake up and start addressing these problems, we're going to go through it all again in 2012. >> i think people should be more upset about this tax cut deal than they are and the president needs to take the lead on this. he has the iblty to force a c conversati conversati conversation. he has two years before an election, two years before he has to get re-elected on this, but they've all got the problem. only he can focus people on an unpopular thing and make it real. this is what happens -- he can do this on things like the tax cut and afghanistan, try it on this. >> thanks for joining me here. it's amazing. you guys should sign the constitution. >> harken you back to the days

of yore. >> thank you, both, very much. still ahead here on this special steel on wheels edition, america's original and most radical thinker. thomas payne. how we can fix today's problems by looking back at the man who brought common sense to this nation. plus, how the liberty bell got its crack and what it's meant to generations of activists seeking freedom and fairness in this country. [scraping] [piano keys banging] [scraping]

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welcome back. i'm here with ranger frank and the liberty bell. we know about the crack. we have a certain sense of awareness of its existence.

this was the original communicator. >> when public announcements were to be made, this bell would ring. people would show up on the square and announcements were made. that's where people learned their news. >> the original breaking news banner. the most famous news this bell ever broke. >> on the 8th of july, 1776, this bell rang to announce our declaration of independence from great britain. not the 4th. it took four days for them to print up copies of the declaration and during that time period, it was hush hush. it was not known. so on the 8th of july, this bell rang, it called people to the state house square and the sheriff of philadelphia at noon that day read for the first time the declaration of independence. >> this has been a huge symbol of fairness in this country.

when you look at its role in fighting slavery, with women suffrage as well. what's a little bit of the back story? >> it's a tribute that really takes its force from the inscription on the crown of the bell, which is a quote from the bible. proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitan inhabitants. the idea is what attracted the abolitionis abolitionists. other groups would follow. promised not to unchain it until women got the right to vote. civil rights movement. gay rights movement. all of these groups could use this bell as a symbol of freedom and fairness. it serves as a very useful

symbol of those ideas. >> let us adopt it for our mission to create a movement for economic fairness? >> sure. >> it would be good for that, right? >> obser >> absolutely. >> what's with the crack? >> the least important is probably the most interesting asked question. how did the bell crack? well, no great story. fatigue. just kind of wore out. it was on george washington's birthday in 1846. it was then that the bell had a hairline crack. they make an attempt to repair it and those real mark is the attempt to repair, but soon after, they began ringing it, the crack continued and that's the last day this bell ever rang. si >> thank you for granting us the right to use it.

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these are the time that is try men's souls. words that describe today, but written more than 200 years ago at the height of the american revolution. they were the words of thomas payne, a long time philadelphia resident and author of "common sense." it was arguing the independence from england and stands as a testament to the power of words and ideas and communication to affect meaningful change.

joining us now, professor of political science at townsend university. it's a pleasure to have you here. what would -- what is payne's significance in the architecture, the philosophical architecture of the way this country's governing concept came to be? >> the brief answer would be he hated award, rank, privilege and people who were overly wealthy, frankly, and he fought against that as an englishman, born in england, but who came here in 1774 and was a fairly newcomer when he first came here. >> he gets a lot of credit for his discussions about the social contract and if i'm going solve a problem, i can't at my crew's

expension. i can't make it an us and them. to heck with you, i take care of mine. how does that apply to the way you look at the political discussion in this country today? >> thomas payne believed that society was a natural form of life. that we were not created as hermits who were going to live in caves by ourselves. he believed that society is natural. he also believed however that we needed governing. he does call it government, a necessary evil, but it's important to emphasize the necessary part of this. one of the things that i think people forget and some who think they know something about payne, but don't, believe he was an anarchist of some sort. he thought government could be used for the common good and developed a plan later in life after the american revolution, that looks almost like the new deal in the 1930s, which was a

social welfare plan that we have actually been disassembling in this country since the mid-90s. >> how significant is it in a problem solving situation, if i make the decision philosophically to solve the problem at the expense of other interests, the rich, the poor, the democrats, the republicans, of women, black, whatever it is, how direestructive is that and t is the alternative mechanism to that? >> for payne, was that one, we were all in this together. we have a way to build something together and we have a way to take care of each other when part of us fails. what i say that he had difficulty with the wealthy, as a man himself, he was always impoverished. he was always asking for favors

and loans from his friends and living off of other people because he never accepted anything. "common sense" was published in january of 1776. you were right to say this was the first publicly articulated argument over why america should separate from britain. people talked about it together. in the coffee houses and tave s taverns. it became a huge best seller. estimates have been that 150 to 250,000 copies were sold and more were read. a lot of people just borrowed someone's who they couldn't afford it, but he never accepted a penny for it. >> can we have a thomas payne reinvig ration? is there room for that in this dialogue? he says, a little matter will move a party, but it must be something great that moves a

nation. and when you look at the economic issues in this country, the housing issues, the prosperity issues in this country, would those register as great enough to drive a movement in payne's eyes? >> he would argue for government intervention. he would say this is where government as a necessary evil has a way to resolve problems. we can regulate, we can build together, but it has to be done through the government. we have to remember one thing. at the time of the constitution, he was a federalist. he believed in a strong, central government. he was not an antifederalist. he believed it was a good thing. when we have an economy that's faltering now, he would say it's time to step in and for the government to take control because we can't do it individually. we have to have some sort of coordinated leadership that

brings us together. he would argue that we might disagree, which is fine, but we have to work it out. you say no all time and nothing will be built of get done. >> the book, it's an absolute pleasure. thank you for channelling thomas payne. very impressive. still ahead from the city of brotherly love, no city left behind. how america's communities are changing, surviving and seeking to thrive despite a tough economy, despite rigged trade, rigged taxes. how do we solve them? be sure to check out our new web property, steelonwheels.com, dedicated to solving the problems that exist in our

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so many things we could complain about. they are valid, real and we're going to have to address them, but it doesn't take care of the issues of today, tomorrow and the next day. those are the issues for america's towns, cities and communities facing difficult choices as they try to evolve in the face of all these forces. successful communities like philadelphia have been able to adapt to new industries and technologies to try to survive and thrive in this environment. philly in fact has become a major corporate hub cht it's been ranked as one of the best cities to find a job. home to one of our nation's most vibrant life sciences industries. meanwhile, 1500 miles from where i sit today in oklahoma city, that town evolving to match its new reality. "forbes" naming it one of the best cities to find a job.

a top college town for jobs cht one of america's fastest growing cities. high praise indeed. the community commitment to investment and development and the resources that exist. we're joined by pennsylvania's governor, ed rendell, along with nick cornyn. high praise to both of you. governor, i'm going to begin with you. again, you can listen to somebody like myself or somebody else that talks about these challenges and boy, they're frustrating, but don't solve how to get through the day tomorrow. how do you reconcile the broad policy debates with the need to create dynamic life today? >> well, first of all, i listened to your last segment and it's safe to say thomas

payne would not have been a vote for the tax deal. that's number one. two -- indeed, right. it's a complex problem. i think you start by looking at the city's strengths. all cities used to be manufacturing hubs. one of the city strengths, in a city like philadelphia, our strength was adds. we have tons of educational institutions, tons of medical centers, so biotech and life sciences was perfect. we converted to a high-tech economy that played to its strengths. secondly, cities are great places for entertainment hubs for the region. we converted philadelphia by driving arts and cultures and sports, we brought a lot of jobs into the city and those are good

jobs that our ordinary citizens can hold. it's a combination of strategies. the one thing the city must do is govern wisely, cut waste, so they can use every dime they have for services like education and crime prevention et cetera. >> mr. mayor, how do you integrate your role in the government to try to encourage vibrancy and what is the relationship? you heard the governor reference how the state did help with the conversion here in philadelphia. obviously, you have a tremendously vibrant environment there in oklahoma. what's the public, private relationship? >> very strong. we have built a high quality of life. "forbes" has acknowledged us as an up and coming city, most start-ups per capita. the quality of life attracts the young, highly educated 20 somethings. that allows the job creators to

be successful. oklahoma city has two amenities that stand out. affordable housing and no traffic congestion. >> you know, you chuckle, but again, traffic and quality of life is a huge variable for people not to mention the cost of housing, governor rendell. how much influence does the way the government -- is traffic a sign of bad government? >> no, actually, it's funny. list listening to the mayor talk. in philadelphia, we have right now horrible traffic downtown. 20 years ago when downtown was a ghost town, we had no traffic. every time i complain about the traffic, my state policemen say, hey, don't complain, you caused this traffic. so, no, but i understand what the mayor said the right. quality of life. attracting the young professionals, but then the next jump when we attract those young

professionals when they're single or just married, they love the quality of life, the culture, how do we keep them when they start having children? we've got to put a lot of attention into urban education. >> i agree. two qualities of life, life and income. our average wage is above the national average, but our cost of living is 90%, so that gives people money. don't underestimate the cost of living when looking at a city specifically and the opportunity for people to get fresh water and clear air and several amenities that people on the east coast can't take for granted. >> you mentioned education, governor. what is the barrier? it's a broken record. but clearly, a robust educational system is central to its prosperous future. there's huge despairties in the

quality of education from city to city, district to district. what is the barrier to equalling that out and solving that problem once and for all? >> well, we have to understand that education is taking place now in an environment where there isn't the same support at home. there are a lot of single family homes now. there are a lot of homes where both pashts work and they don't have time to act as tutors to their kids, so we've got to get in and start at the beginning. early childhood education. 2, 3 years old. they've got to get quality experiences. pre-k programs. those things cost money, but they're investments in our future. every dollar we spend on pre-k avoids 6 or $7 in social services or prison costs. we've got to make our schools accident places.

the kids sense the environment. if they're in an old, run down school, they understand nobody cares about them. if they're in a new school, they sense, hey, the society values us. we've got to invest money in education. our physical infrastructure. that's a huge issue for me and it's the way to get america back to work. we've also got to invest in our intellectual infrastructure. >> early childhood education is essential. we're rebuilding all buildings in the inner city district. that is a critical component as is the technology and transportation you can offer the kids. >> mr. mayor, governor, thank you so much for the conversat n conversation. coming up on "hardball," chris matthews talking to jack reed and chris coons, but first, parting thoughts and lessons learned from our town hall.

last night, not just fireworks, but also some significant insights. that after this. my doctor said most calcium supplements... aren't absorbed properly unless taken with food. he recommended citracal. it's different -- it's calcium citrate, so it can be absorbed with or without food. also available in small, easy-to-swallow petites. citracal.

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that wraps up day two. we'd love to thank the folks and i will thank the folks here for their hospitality. i'd also like to thank everyone at the town hall, dan dimico offering a valuable message. >> your responsibility to fend for yourself and you develop a certain set of