don't ever be afraid of doing something new, of going in a direction direction than you intended because the world may demand that of you. >> and indeed it will. on this steel on wheels tour, we hope to build an alliance of folks who want to restore the spirit of this country, embrace that spirit and ultimately address the core problems. trade, taxes, health care, the banking system. to get this nation back to work. tomorrow, we'll wrap it up at the gateway to the west aboard a river boat on the mississippi. i know how cold it is, people. "hardball's" up right now. deadline. let's play "hardball." good evening i'm chris

matthews in washington. last harumph. reluctant house democrats are roaring their disapproval one last time before probably voting for bill. here's the irony. the closer this gets to passage, the more it's the republicans having second thoughts. they think it's too good for president obama. the president likes it, must be trouble in there somewhere. that's the republican attitude now. plus, the reviews on afghanistan are in and they're not good. yes, we're making some progress, but it's slow going and here's the killer. pakistan isn't helping enough. and that's not to mention the corrupt afghanistan government, so even if we had to go into afghanistan after 9/11, does the war still make sense today? plus, who's the grinch? do democrats hate christmas? this year, it's jon kyl and jim

demint attacking harry reid. and skung at the tea party a new stimulus bill. the old gop guard is running committees right now. too much compromising with democrats tea partiers say and they're ready to quote rod stewart to republican leaders, i know i keep you amused, but i feel like i'm being used. finally, he won't admit it, but another republican was for something before he was against it. we start with two house democrats. u.s. congressman of massachusetts and of pennsylvania. thank you, gentlemen, for joining us. two of my favorite congressmen. the old eighth in massachusetts once held by james michael curly, then jack kennedy, then tip o'neal and now, you, sir. are you in that tradition of

being the big liberal in the house? >> i don't know about that. i'm a fiscal conservative because i think we should pay our bills. >> and you think what should happen tonight as the evening grows long? what do you think the democrats ought to do? finally relent? go with the president or hang out a little more? >>. >> i've assumed the president will get what he wants, but not with my vote. it's too big. too untargeted and adds too much for too little. i like the unemployment issue, but i don't think it's good for the country if the long run. >> if he was to go down politically this season because of your vote, would you still deny it to him? >> i don't think that's the way it's going to happen. i was an early supporter of the president. >> i know. it's a cruel question at christmas time. but i'm asking you, if you were to vote deciding on the floor

and were corralled, we need you, what would you say? >> that will not be happening. they know who i'm voting. if they're going to do that, they're going to do it to somebody else. >> let me go to a more reliable democrat. just kidding. sir, your view on this. should the democrats go with the president? >> i issued a statement last week. i'm going to support the tax cut compromise. i think football works better then who you play with your quarterback. he's come to a compromise and the republican side, most of us don't like, but that's the basis of a deal. when bill clinton was in and we had republicans to deal with, there were accommodations we had to come to. now, i agree we need to pay our bills. i'll be authoring my own in

january, but right now, 98% of the people in this country don't want their taxes going up. we disagree about the 2%, but the republican says that's their side of the cake and they want the 2% of the wealthiest people to get a break and we've made an accommodation in which everybody's going to get what they want. we need to move forward and make sure this recovery moves forward. >> here we go. lay it on. i know somebody, you disagree, that's rush limbaugh. here he comes. this time, he's right for all the wrong reasons. here's rush limbaugh on the tax bill. let's listen. >> i hope this deal fails. i say it directly and officially. let the tax rates go up. on january 1st. let them go up. wait for our cavalry to show up and deal with this the right

way. >> what do you make of that mr. capuano? he wants to be the one saying, those damn democrats let your taxes go up, here were january 15th or whatever. >> he'll be the guy leading the charge next year to cut the programs that are so important. and i don't want to do that. i think that's absolutely inevitable. they're going to do it any way and to add another trillion dollars is going to empower it even more. >> is rush right, if you don't deal with this tax issue, the bad guys will come in and look like the heroes? aren't you thinking political at that is all this? >> but i think i have to think philosophically as well. mr. fattah? is rush limbaugh right? >> they're as liberal as they

come. i'm going to vote for it in the house. there will be members who disagree and on legitimate points. anytime a deal is struck, some are not going to like it. there will be enough votes to pass this. we'll send it to the president for his signature. i think the senate's going to pass don't ask don't tell. we've got to get the appropriations bill done. then these republicans who want to celebrate christmas will get a chance to. we'll get the work done. >> some are lucky to be working. here's the polling data. we'll look at these numbers. 54% of democrats support this deal right now. that's in our poll. let's listen. well, i don't know why we're listening here. getting confused here. let's look at the latest

quinnipiac poll has 69%. 69% say they'd go with the deal. this is 72% of republicans. 72% of independents. mr. capuano, 71% support this among union households. what do you make of that? >> who doesn't want a tax cut? do they want to lay it on their kids? if so, why are they bothering saving money to go to college? we're laying this on our children and when you ask that question, you get a different answer. if you ask for a tax cut, i'm for that, but my responsibility here is also for the future of this country and we will regret this vote in a few years if we don't deal with our deficit and debt right now. >> mr. fattah, what's it like in the cloak room? who what's the argument going on?

is it with the philosophical position and not letting the republicans steal this issue from you come january? >> well, there are a lot of different viewpoints, but the bottom line here is that we have a situation in front of us where we have a timeline. we're going to be in the majority for a few more weeks. we need to get our work done. i agree the debt's a problem. i'm going to offer a bill directly to deal with the debt, but we have an economic recovery that's critically important. every economist who has looked at this says it's going to add to our gdp, at least a million plus more jobs ch we need to focus on building our economy pause at the end of the day, that's how we're going to get out of debt. we have to grow our way out by adding more tax ratables to the bottom line. >> last night, he described what he said were high pressure phone calls from the president on this deal. not saying he got one, but saying he heard from someone who

did. a spokesman has denied the prosecutor p president is making such phone calls. >> the white house is putting on tremendous pressure making phone calls, the president's making phone calls saying this is the end of his presidency if he doesn't get this bad deal. i don't feel that way. i think this is potentially the end of his possibility of getting re-elected. it's a trap on social security and progressivety in our tax system and a tax on programs we care about. next year, we have to cut the heck out of everything because of the deficit. they won't be talking about their role in creating that. >> this phone call that the president's going to lose the presidency, we found out from his office, didn't get that call. he reports he got it, heard another member got that call.

mr. capuano, is anybody getting calls from the president? >> i have not heard that. >> thank you very much from the eighth in massachusetts. and mr. fattah, thank you and merry christmas to both of you. coming up, president obama says the war in afghanistan is on track. whoa. we're making significant progress. i'm not sure. how can we say that with al-qaeda holed up in the pakistan border? that's the tough question. the other question is what do you do with a corrupt afghanistan government? does the war make sense? the people don't think so.

a new poll shows president obama doing well against potential republican challengers. if it were -- would top mitt romney of massachusetts by 7.

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president obama's war review shows military gains against the taliban in southern afghanistan, but pakistan's refusal to attack extremist havens threatens to unvalve progress. how much longer should our troops fight? jack reed of rhode island is a member of the armed services committee. he's made ten wartime trips to afghanistan and eight to pakistan. thank you so much for joining us, senator. great respect for you.

my trick question, because trick reality, i don't know how many years we're going to stay there, but how can we win if we stay 20 years? >> i'm not a combat veteran. i have great respect for combat veterans. i spent 12 years in the army. we have to make sure that the pakistanis cooperate with us and frankly, one of the issues there is that they consider some of these extremists groups as assets. we have to convince them they're liableties to their own government, but we have made some progress to get them to go into the tribal areas. i think the important point to emphasize is that the president is committed to a july 2011 transition point where our troops start to come out. that is key. he does not see a long-term significant presence in the region. >> why have we stayed any more than we're there?

if we have the al-qaeda elements across the border and we're not going to win ultimately because the taliban will call the shots when we leave, won't they? and al-qaeda will call the shots. what influence will we have once we pull out in strength? >> this might be seen as counterterrorism, and the al-qaeda element. we can't forget the fact that even though the pakistanis are not taking as much action as we'd like against these elements in pakistan, we are continuing to use predator attacks, drone attacks, to disrupt and to drivew driveway al-qaeda elements. we are not abandoning al-qaeda, but we have to do it with a much smaller footprint. >> speak now as you're speaking to a progressive audience.

what would you tell them it would look like a year two from now? would we have 50,000 troops? way less than now? >> if we were there because that's where al-qaeda mounted their attack, we have a real mission there. it's continuing. second, we're going to begin withdrawal. it's not going to be as robust as many would like, but the direction is going to be set and firm. the president has done the same thing in iraq. he said on the campaign trail and he was part of the debate, that he was going to start the withdrawal. the question i think is in a year from you, i think we'll see is that shift. i think we'll see more activity by the afghan national security forces. i think you'll also see a continuing very robust counterterrorism effort by the united states. >> right now, we've got a new

poll, "washington post" abc poll, 60% of americans believe the war in afghanistan is is not worth fighting. 54% want troops to start withdrawing next july. i guess the question liberals and progressives ask is it going to a rapid withdrawal, a steep decline in force level, or just drag on like vietnam did? >> i don't think it's going to be as rapid frankly as people would like to see. i'll be very candid. but i think once that direction is set, it will be in that direction. and i think it will be based upon conditions and many conditions. but again, you know, the president inherited an operation that was under resourced, mismanaged. i think he's got the right strategy and it's going to be difficult, but it is the right strategy. >> thank you so much. happy christmas to you.

president obama's cited progress on his goal of disrupting al-qaeda. let's listen to the president. >> in pursuit of our core goal, we are seeing significant progress. today, al-qaeda's senior leadership in the border region of afghanistan and pakistan is under more pressure than at any point since they fled afghanistan nine years ago. senior leaders have been killed. it's harder for them to recruit, travel, it's harder for them to plot and launch attacks. in short, al-qaeda is hunkered down. it will take time to ultimately defeat al-qaeda and it remains a ruthless and resilient enemy bent on attacking our country, but make no mistake. we are going to remain relentless in disrupting and dismantling that terrorist organization. >> senator chris coons, the

democrat from delaware. do you share vice president biden's skrept schism about this war? he's clearly saying again and again he'd like to see rapid withdrawal. he says it's a real beginning of withdrawal, not just a few troops. >> thanks for a chance to be on. i think i share every american's concern that if we're going to continue to stay this afghanistan, t got to be worth the lives, investments. there's got to be a strategy that allows us to see a path forward. >> have we got one? >> i was encouraged by what i heard today about the progress in southern pakistan, but i am gre greatly concerns and whether there is a path forward for a strategy that can really work. >> let's think politically. these guys are as smart as we are. sometimes, cannier than we are. they may be evil, but they're smart. you're in al-qaeda.

watching america reading the newspapers, watching cnn, whatever, you're keeping up with us. you know we're talking withdrawal next july. why don't they just keep things cool, wait for us to leave and take over and have their base back? i just never understood this we can wait them out. they're from there. we're from here. >> let's be clear about something, chris, i support the president's commitment to continuing a very tough fikt against al-qaeda, where ever they are. there are elements affiliated in yemen, somalia, pakistan, afghanistan. >> germany. >> you're right. i don't think we will ultimately be able to take our eye of the ball and stop a conflict that may go on for many years. are we going to be able to stand up a successful afghan security force? get a good and effective partner in the karzai government? are we going to be able to

persuade pakistan to work in those parts of the border region? >> you think the government of pakistan has a stuff to go into those northwest territories, those unregulated areas and really crush al-qaeda if bin laden may be there? why haven't they done it in ten years? >> as you heard from senator reed, they just don't see it's in their own interest to go aggressively after the taliban and al-qaeda, but they have stepped up their attacks against the elements of the taliban in pakistan. we have made some progress with them. i'm reserving judgment as you mentioned, i've been a senator for just a month. i am looking forward very much to going to afghanistan and making a visit on the ground. i have friends and folks who i've known and served with in county government in delaware who have done two and three tours in afghanistan and i'm

gravely concerned about finding a path for ward for america. >> let's look at gates and clinton today. >> i would just say that, it's obviously the responsibility of leaders to pay attention to public opinion. but at the end of the day, their responsibility is to look out for the public interest. >> i think it's understandable and i'm very respectful of the feelings of the american people, but the question i would ask is how do you feel about a continuing american commitment that is aimed at protecting you and your family now and into the future? >> here's something i'd like you to check out. i got a sense we have no idea what's going on over there. i think the isa in pakistan is in bed with the taliban. they like the taliban because

they're on the it's not winnable in the long-term. i'm going to support the president's efforts in the next few month, but i'm looking forward to us making a tough review by next summer. >> congratulations, senator coons and thank you for beating christine o'donnell. that was an important election for life on this planet. up next, who's the republican congressman who says getting rid of don't ask don't tell marks the end of america's days as a great nation? you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

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back to "hardball" an the "sidesho "sideshow." yesterday, the texas republican congressman urged his follow members to vote against the don't ask don't tell repeal because he says it threatens america's very existence. see if you can follow this line of well, reasoning. >> to my friend who said history will judge us poorly, if you will look at history, when militaries throughout history of the greatest nations in the world have adopted the policy that fine for homosexuality to be overt, they're toward the end

of their existence as a great nation. >> well, we called the office today for specific examples of such great nations. they said they were fielding a lot of questions for that information and would get back to us. next, mike huckabee's curious case of am knee sa. took issue with an article -- it's not true that you supported cap and trade? back to the tape. here's huck in april of 2007.

that tape it sounds mr. huckabee is taking the temperature of the electorate and realized it would be more convenient for him to now disavow his prior support of cap and trade. thankfully for us, there's videotape. now to tonight's big number. yesterday, john thune issued something against the new spending bill. >> the american people neither deserve nor want this bill that heaps more debt on to the backs of future generations. the bill is loaded up with pork projects and shouldn't get a vote. >> how much in so-called pork projects does thune have? according to politico, he has $65 million in pork. senator thune that has $65 million main earmarks.

he's campaigninging against the very pork he's grabbing. boy, these guys are unbelievable. they say they're mad at harry reid for threatening to keep the senate in session. reid says the republicans are just trying to run out the clock. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. everybody has somebody to go heart healthy for. who's your somebody? eating campbell's healthy request can help. 25 delicious soups with low cholesterol, zero grams trans fat, and a healthy level of sodium. because heart healthy is good for your life... and the people in it. healthy request from campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do.

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the year unless you're a u.s. senator who may be working through christmas, i guess. republican senators jim demint and jon kyl have been protesting democrats who want to vote on the new s.t.a.r.t. nuclear treaty with russia and others in the next two weeks. >> it is impossible to do all of the things that the majority leader laid out without doing frankly, without disrespecting the institution. and without disrespecting one of the two holiest of holidays for christians and the families of all of the senate, not just the senators themselves, but all of the staff. >> wow. here's senator demint and what he had to say in print --

for more on this, we're joined by john altar and john corn. it's almost too much to observe and even to report. they've worked till late. people work. we're going to be here until right before christmas. a lot of normal americans get christmas eve off. christmas day off. they don't belly ache about it. >> i just love these guys are playing the christmas card. >> good pun. >> it's like, it reminds me of what fox did. remember the war on christmas? they tried to stigmatize liberals. this is the last refuge of a senator who's out of arguments, which is where jon kyl is right now, he's been trying against the support of republicans secretaries of state, want to

get on with this treaty. it should have been ratified a long time ago. the idea that it hasn't been fairly considered is just untrue. they've held 18 hearings on the new s.t.a.r.t. treaty i, so it's time to vote the blame for the reason that it isn't been voted on yet rests with senator kyl, not with senator reid and the democrats. >> wasn't it signed, david, in june by the president and medvedev? >> and kyl and other republicans are calling on them to read the treaty. >> out loud. >> for no effect. only to delay it. >> i don't know -- i don't think it's disrespectful of the christian holiday to say you'd like to end nuclear war threats before christmas. here's senator harry reid responding to kyl. let's listen.

>> yobt nei don't need to hear s of kyl and demint to remind me of what christmas means. my question is where were their concerns filibuster after filibuster on major pieces of legislation? >> don't they have a gag that says, i can't say this? the holidays, they're trying to -- with some kind of -- they should be saved for at least special occasions. why are they bringing them up now? >> what is a holiday, chris? >> there is no gag anymore. that's the thing. that's what seems to be changes is that anything goes now. you can use any ridiculous argument you want. if you try to appeal to the base or try to figure out another way to get a little bit of an edge,

they'll use it. it used to be there were these constraints, particularly in the senate, where when they said by distinguished colleague, it wasn't just blather. it was because they respected certain boundaries on the debate. >> is there some living soul out there that's listening to demint or kyl who goes to vote in a church bus, who's so religiously driven in their voting that they hear truth? >> there may be some people who think that because of the fox jonathan mentioned earlier, that the the democrats and liberals are really out to get christmas. >> you know how people when they have hangovers, they have to put one foot on the ground to find stability? here's the list of regular people who work after christmas eve. doctor, nurses, most normal

people -- most people like us get christmas eve off. >> i'm looking forward to next year when they shut the senate down for -- >> let's to the greatness of why you guys are employed. will we get a vote on the most important vote of the year? this nuclear arms race. we have all our live, worried about the nuclear war. russia and the yit haunited sta have ended the cold war. they're really trying to reduce the number of nuclear weapons. every republican with any brains, kissinger, they're all for this treaty. are we going to get it ratified before they go to christmas.

>> i think we will and the reason is iran. we need russia in order to can tan and isolate iran. that's what ultimately this is about. if this treaty doesn't go through, our relations with russia go into crapper. >> they'll wonder who's calling the shots over here, david. >> i'm usually pessimistic about the senate doing the right thing. everybody else who jonathan has mentioned say we must do this, for kyl and demint to hold it up under the banner of protecting christmas is about as absurd as it's gotten. >> thank you and by the way, hop p happy holidays. tea party leaders are already angry with the republican leadership in congress. why they're mad, next. a lot of fighting on the left

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we're back and some tea partiers are mad about this budget bill with pork in it. some others are mad about the tax deal which also adds $900 billion to the deficit and some are mad that republican leaders aren't rewarding some of their heroes with plum assignments. is there a brewing battle between the tea party people and establishment republican party? gentlemen, thank you. let the fight begin. perhaps. what do you make of this let's start with the tax cut proposal. matt, give us a thought for the tea parties. do they like this big tax cut for everybody? extending jobless benefits and the whole works? >> it's kind of a mixed deal and there are some tea partiers that have anxiety particularly about

the junk in the bill. the extension about the unemployment, it's bad stuff. but we view it as dodging the executioner's bullet, getting past this automatic massive tax increase that's going to hit in january. we have to get to rational tax policy, but for this congress, nancy pelosi, harry reid and president barack obama to extend the tax cuts, i think we should consider that a tactical victory. >> bob, do you think unemployment benefits are junk for the people that get them? you just heard it. your colleague there on the right just said it's junk. >> i don't think they're junk, but i think they should be paid for. i agree that the tax bill should be passed because i would be afraid that if you start withdrawing billions from the private sector of the economy and bringing into the government

early in january, that you could undermine the whole economic performance for the rest of the year. >> are the tea party folk out there, for the extent you can talk for them, do they worry about deficits or spending? when they see it's going to be added to by almost a trillion dollars, do they get worried and say, i'd rather have the tax cut. is that the way the tea partier. is that the way that the tea partier thinks about it. >> i think that they're worried about deficit spending and i don't think that they have a problem with allowing americans to keep some of the money that they've earned. >> i know, i know that's rhetoric, though, but it does increase the deficit. >> well, i'm not so sure. you have such a trouble with unemployment and economic stagnation right now, it's not at all clear to me that the numbers make any sense. you're looking at raising taxes on everybody in january, and you can't possibly argue that that's going to have anything but a

negative impact on growth and the revenue that growth produces. >> okay, so you believe, you seem to be saying, matt, here, that cutting the taxes or allowing the tax cut to continue for people who make over $250,000 a year is going to pay for itself in new government revenues? in other words, it's going to be one of these things where you lower the rates or keep the rates low, but more revenue comes in than otherwise would come in, you believe in that process? you just said so. >> i'm arguing that this is a spending problem. we've been spending our way into massive debt. >> okay. so the taxing doesn't bother you adding to the deficit? >> i will say that if we don't -- if we don't fix this problem with this automatic tax increase you're going to see further economic problems and less employment which does nothing to fix our revenue problem. >> well, here's what the profounder of tea party said about michele bachmann not getting a slot on the ways and

means. quote. it shows that leadership doesn't particularly support her. congressman walker, you know the inside and how it works. does fame on the outside help you get a big job on the inside? she's got a lot of fame or notoriety if you will and she's very well known. we love having her on this show when she comes on. i love sparring with her. she's a great partner to spar with, but that doesn't seem to be helping her with the inside guys. >> well, it's more than simply being a spokesman on the outside that works inside the process that determines what you do on committees. and the steering committee has to weigh a number of things. and i think in picking the people they did for the ways and means committee they did a pretty good job. people who are going to stand up for lower taxes, for more dynamic economy, for economic growth and that's what we have to have on the ways and means committee? is she is a showhorse, not a workhorse? >> no, i wouldn't say that. i think that she's -- >> i thought that you were saying that, bob. you were saying that. >> no, no. >> because you're saying that there are workhorses that you can put on that committee, not her, whereas she doesn't neat

standard. you just said it, basically. >> no, no, that's not what i did say. i said they think that she's been a very effective spokesman for the party. but i think that the steering committee probably had some more senior people that were in-line to be in the committee that thought deserved their shot having been effective in the work that they had done in the congress previously, anxiety i think that michele bachmann wants to be on the ways and means committee, at some point she'll probably get there. >> what do you make of these porkers, matt? i know that you're for real because you don't want spending to go up. i know that you're not big on the tax side. you don't want tt to go down, obviously. but what about these porkers out there? all of the guys who seem to love your votes, thune, cornyn, mcconnell is out there with earma earmarks. every one of these guys have their santa claus bag packed with goodies to go home with, what do you think of that. >> i think that we've got strip the earmarks out of this ominous bill. it's an outrage. there are 6,600-plus earmarks in there and it's both the republican and the democratic problem.

i think we should do a short-term continuum resolution. get all of that garbage out of there. and deal with real spending reform come january. >> well, why doesn't mcconnell do that? you're pushing these guys around, you're the new juice. why don't you make these republicans do what you guys sell, matt? >> that's exactly what we've done with the house republicans. >> you've guys -- you have not done that, matt. all of these these fat cat republicans every one of them are pushing porks. they're all doing and t and laughing at you guys. >> and senator mcconnell is leading the charge against this ominibous pork bill. >> and getting his pork while he's doing it. >> not if we don't agree with the bill. >> great organization for you guys. and bob walker, it's always great to have you on. >> thanks. when we return, let me finish with a tribute to larry king, who's 25-year run as a tv talk show host is coming to an end tonight. you're watching "hardball." ♪

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gentleman of immense curiosity. that i guess you can only guess about these things the secret to the mr. larry king. how's he to explain the success, the popularity, the durability of this phenom? he's done interviews on radio and this media for more than half a century, 50,000 of them, all in that rich-smoky new york accent that somehow appeals to everyone. my late-grandmother in law, a proud member of the daughters of the american revolution would go to bed at night with her husband

next to her, but with larry king in her earphones. there she would perch into the night listening to this liberal big-city democrat interview some character from somewhere, famous or not, as if for the personal benefit of this flinty conservative lady from colorado. so you watch yourself in the movies, how about the nude scenes? are they a problem for you? talk about getting to the common denominator. this guy was born in it, and never strayed. he know it is what guy in the cornerback in brooklyn would like to know, the retiree sitting on the porch bench in miami. what larry knows is that knowing the right question to ask isn't exactly a secret. it's knowing because you never stop being one of them with the guy or woman out there listening would like to ask. if they the huts pato ask it. larry once said that his secret is when he's worrying about whether to ask a question, that's the question he asks. how's that for a winning formula? when in doubt, leave it in. i love the old movie moguls with cigars who made the great films of the '30s and '40s. when stars would work because th