but as we've said for millions of americans the bottom line is really all about the jobs. right now the unemployment rate sits steady at 9.8%. even if it doesn't directly affect you, it affects your neighbor or your friends or your kids. so what can be done to get americans back to work? robert rice, great to have you with me. i want to ask you, is this going to be a long or drawn out jobless recovery? technically we are out of the recession so to speak. >> unfortunately it is going to be long and drawn out. this recession that we've just been through is very different from the past five recessions we have been through. those were brought on by the fed raising interest rates too high and pushing the economy into recession and it was easy to get out because the fed just put interest rates low. this past recession has been the explosion of a huge asset bubble. that's the housing bubble.

the president met with major ceos earlier this week. are these types of meetings helpful? and what will make these people that have the positions that can free up the money, start hiring once again? >> it will only thing higher is if they thank the customers for the goods and services that they have to sell and they think there are more customers than they have right now, employees and capacity to serve. otherwise ceos will not hire additional people. it's all about customers. it's going to add to the record 13. $7 trillion deficit. how do we get back to the pay as you go society that we once were? >> thomas, really the only way of getting back to economic growth and jobs is to stimulate

the economy, boost the economy, getç consumers to spend again. the only way to get consumers to spend again is to put more money in their wallets. the only way to put more money in their wallets is to either give them a tax cut, and they are getting tax cuts in this new bill. or to provide other relief to them in other ways we can talk about. >> okay. well, if we are living through or getting through this recession together, and we're giving people these tax deals where they're going to get more money in their wallet, me personally, the way i think about this, and i'm sure a lot of other americans do, because i was out of work for two years. the only thing i think about is saving. if i get more money back, i'm putting away because i'm afraid we'll go through this again. how do we get americans out of the mind set that we know there's a comfort level? >> what's rational for an individual or family to save and pay off debts is not rational as a whole.

if everybody does that, we won't have an economy that grows. it is very important any additional money they have, they be prudent with the additional money. if there are tax cuts, if the tax cuts are at least enough to free up some discretionary spending, then things will begin to turn around. a lot of consumers have what are called consumerdurables. cars, washing machines, appliances, clothing that have to be replaced. they are going to have to make some replacements. that's going to boost the economy a little bit. banks are still going to be very cautious about lending. they have they have to be cautious. banks are sit o sending out a lot of bad ious. consumers won't have an easy time getting more credit. >> i want to ask you to put on kwour historian hat for me for a

second. as we always have been referring to these at as the busch era tax cuts, do these now becomeç the obama era tax cuts? >> they do now, thomas. although this is an extension of the bush tax cuts, this is pushed by the obama administration as well as republicans. the real problem with the bill is so much of the tax cuts go to the very wealthy, and very wealthy people don't spend very much of the extra income they get. that's what it means to be wealthy. you have most of what you need. >> when we talk about president obama and also reflecting on his first two years in office, what has he done right with the economy? what has he done wrong? we can't look over the fact that he inherited the economy in shambles, so to speak. but what has he done right? >> there's a will the of controversy about this. i would say that the bailout of wall street was the right thing to do. but he shouldn't put conditions on that bailout.

if you want all this money, then, for example, you have to help homeowners who are behind in mortgage payments. you have to make sure small businesses get the money. you have to put a cap on your bonuses that you're providing your own people. those conditions were not there. secondly the stimulus package was in the right direction in my view, thomas. and this may be an unpopular view. it was not big enough. most economists agree that without the stimulus we would not have had 3 million jobs. 3 million jobs are saved or created because of the stimulus. but the stimulus was not big enough to bring unemployment down. >> sir, i want to thank you for joining me. former labor secretary robert rice. always good to have you with us. now we want to move to savannah guthrie. she joins ne from the white house. is this extension for the middle class considered a true victory for the obama administration? >> well, that's how they look at it. it's because they're thinking about what would have happened if there had been no compromise, and that is that taxes would

have gone up for everybody, including the middle class, which would have been a violation of another campaign ç promise. this wasn't just a side issue or something he talked about occasionally as president. this is something they talked about time and time again. that they would not let the tax cuts for the wealthiest continue, and yet, that's about to happen. he's about to put pen to paper in a ceremony here at the white house with within the hour doing just that. that's why it's been so hard for some of his ver fant supporters on the left to take this. but the president is a practical person and knew if they didn't do some kind of deal, the taxes would have gone up in january for everybody. so they do look at this deal as something that's a positive. also because they feel they were able to get concessions out of republicans that nobody saw coming including a 1-month extension of unemployment. longer than the unemployment extensions have been recently. also the payroll tax cut. things that are very stimulative

in nature amounts to a second stimulus. i had one say to me the other day, you told me right after the election we're going to end up getting a second stimulus. we're going to get unemployment extended for more than a year, i wouldn't have believed it. so they feel autoof the ashes of the midterms they've got an good deal. >> i would say this issue is pretty much a campaign lynchpin that we discussed, you know, for so long. so is the president losing clout with liberal wing of the democratic party while gaining clout with moderates with disinterest of the party? >> if you polled democrats. he's got something like 80% plus support among democrats. so there's not a ton of evidence that liberals are threeing from president obama or really angling to get a primary challenge to him in 2012, but there's kind of a bill of particulars. a bill of, you know, a list of

grievances that folks on the left have against president obama. also there's a space to watch. because you have some campaign promises just as central. like the closing of guantanamo, the war in afghanistan. not a campaign promise. but the more that goes on, you can see that might build some angst andç anxiety within democratic ranks. so the president is obviously trying to do what he thinks is right, but he is going to face some pressure, not just from the right, but also from the left on some of these issues. >> savannah guthrie at the white house for us. we're going to continue throughout this hour to talk about your money. but there is some other important muse to move onto. julian assange is under a virtual house arrest but vowing to continue to bring government secrets to the light. just yesterday assange was freed on bail as sweden pushes his case. justice correspondent pete

williams is live in washington the latest details on this. u could assange be fighting extradition to come to the united states? >> i think it's possible. i don't know how soon the u.s. will file charges, because this is a tough one. the united states has never in history violated the espionage laws who wasn't a government employee. someone who discloses information given to them by someone else. there's never been that kind of prosecution. the justice department feels it can't swing and miss here. it can't file a case and lose before a jury. or that would be a signal to

other people like assange, the government, believes, that you can leak with impunity and the government can't touch you. that's another reason why the justice department strongly is trying to find pa way to bring charges here. the got government definitely wants to send a message that it frowns on this whole sail leaking of classified and otherwise secret documents. the trick here is to find a chart that works. for the last couple weeks it's been pretty clear that they're trying to draw a gis tings between wikileaks andç mainstrm news organizations that public what wikileaks put out. to put wikileaks in the middle between the press and the person alleged to have gotten the documents for the government in the first place. to treat wikileaks as a middleman, a storehouse, a recipient of the documents. and the law makes it illegal to retain documents that are provided illegally.

or to show wikileaks staffers were in with the private army officer that got this, they would have a case on what would be much stronger grounds. that's a look at the legal landscape. but i would bes a stonished if the government doesn't come up with some kind of charge. extradition to the u.s. even in a country like england takes a long time, takes months. >> explain the information coming out about the connection that may be made about any type of software that was given to private first class manning, the person charged with down loading these hundreds of thousands of documents. is there the connection assange provided special software to manning that he used to get the document zms. >> there's been a suggestion of that. you know, i think we don't know what the answer is, and i'm sure the government is very much

eager to invest good faith and get the answer and figure that out. not easy to do. wikileaks is reported to be somebody who receives documents anonymously. they have nothing to do with the initial decision to take the documents illegally in the first place. that's always been their claim. but if the government can show it facilitated this or made it easier for the leaker to do this. or had any kind of preexisting deal with the leaker, you know, you have these here, you can get them to us. then that puts the government, i think, they would believe on a different footing. and make a stronger case to make a conspiracy connection or some sort of. >> and that hearing a january 11th? correct? >> in the british court. the entire proceeding on the extra diction warrant from

sweden for -- they want to question him for allegations about a sex crime in sweden. that's all there is so far at this point. >> pete williams, live in washington, d.c. for us. thanks so much. >> you bet. >> so the count down to the tax deal signing is on, everybody. it's going to be law within the hour. we'll break down how the $868 billion total price tag and how it will impact you. this is my band from the 80's, looker.

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it came down to the wire, but the president and the democratic leaders were able to

convince lawmakers to get on board. karen finney is a democratic strategist and msnbc crib tor. and robert tran is in roll co mtv. is he now following the clinton pattern and moving to the center? is that how he's going to govern as he moves forward? >> the president believes he made the best deal he could. i disagree in the way in which he did the deal, in terms of what it meant for democrats. i think the president truly believes that the ultimate goal is to get away from the partisan politi politics. that wouldn't be good for anyone

i certainly think he also needs to work better with democrats. >> we had a scroll next to karen going up of what's in the bill coming up throughout the hour. but what do you say to that? >> she makes a good point. first and foremost, there's a political upside to the president to work with republicans. they're the ones controlling at least one part of the legislature, i.e., the congress. so he recognizes there's a new sheriff in town, so to speak. so he's got to strike up a deal. the other side is the american people time and time again have told us all they want all these politicians to stop yelling at each other and to start communicating with each other. so when the president sits down with republicans and brokers a deal, roughly 58% of americans say i twooil like this. i like the fact that the

president of the united states, a democrat obviously, isç sittg down with john boehner and the others to work out a deal. the question is whether or not the democratic base is happy with the what the president is doing. they also feel like they're the ones who carried the president's water for the last two years. the senate expected to meet tomorrow on a sord to finish the outstanding business which includes don't ask, don't tell as well as the dream act. is this a case of show boating hard working procrastinators?

our brave men and women would love to have christmas day off as well. that came and went quickly. the reality is we always come down to the wire in a lame duck session. why? sometimes it takes the political pressure of running out of time quite literally to get people to focus and cut the deals and get the votes done. i also hope that we'll get not only those two pieces of legislation done, but let's also see the start treaty get done. >> there are 15 million unemployed american who is would like to have a job. do you think the republicans are making the wrong choice by saying they don't want to work? >> absolutely. there are millions of people out there that are out of work or living paycheck to paycheck and would dream for the opportunity to go on national television and say, you know what? i just can't work today. i'm just so busy. come on, guys. the fact of the matter is this is the worst economy in terms of

where the country is headed to since the 1930s. for people, republican or democrat, to get on the soap box and say we have to go home so we can open up our christmas presents and all our holiday presents, tell that to theç fos out there trying to stand in line for unemployment insurance. tell that to the working people liveg from paycheck to paycheck. this is the fact where really the folk who is are in washington, d.c. are not really rooted in reality. >> nearly everyone has come forward with a minor beef with this tax compromise. what really was the alternative? let the middle class taxes increase? also we have former president bill clinton who said this really was the best deal that obama could get right now. >> that's right. i think it is. there are a couple of things that the democrats can do starting in january. frankly starting now to sort of gain, regain the upper hand on this. number one, what was it that the republicans were fighting for? nothing to do with job creation. nothing to do with reducing the

deficit. but actually tax bonuses for millionaires and billionaires. so we've heard all the rhetoric from the right about deficit reduction and reducing spending. all this raining in the budget. when push came to shove, that is not what republicans stood up for. so i hope democrats will actually hold them accountable for that going into the new session. thomas? >> karen, i love you, and it's a holiday season. i love you to death. >> be nice. >> that's a disingenuous statement. we know that every single working american out there would have solve saw their taxes raised on january 1st. we know people at the usher income brackets for whatever reason, for discretionary income, and thus in the process, they buy the televisions, the cards. >> comen, robert. >> they create jobs by hiring more staff. they don't create jobs by investing in their companies and hiring -- creating more positions than their companies.

>> but karen, you know it's a d disingenuous statement to make. >> i said if that's what the republicans were willing to fight for. they weren't willing to fight for unemployment insurance. more son so than tax breaks for millionaires and billionaires. they wgr fighting for the $700 billion upper income in the country. it's not about deficit reduction. it is not at all about doing things that will stimulate the economy and create jobs. >> they call it a compromise in washington, d.c. we're going to see the president signing this bill coming up later in this hour. i thank you both for joining me. >> thank you. >> you are welcome. stay with me. we're going be back with much more right after this. ah, this is just what the eight layers needed.

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welcome back, everybody. i want to remind you we're going to hear live from president obama at the white house where he's going to be signing the tax compromise bill into law. the bill extends the bush era tax cuts for all income brackets, including the top earners it extends unemployment benefits as well. but democrats are still incensed about the estate tax cuts for the wealthy.

we have a great team of experts to walk us through what this all means for us taxpayers with me now is any panel of experts. jp froeer from the washington examiner. we're going to start with dylan ratigan. he is on the mississippi river. you've had the opportunity to hear from american who is are really affected by this and hear from them face to face. what's their response as to what's taking place in the economy? >> well, very simply they want good jobs. they want good jobs that solve the problems in their towns. in this case it's st. louis. truly out on the mississippi, and what is really unclear about this tax deal is whether it does that. it's a continuation of the policies we've had the last few years. this tax policy is not a brand

new policy to provoke jobs in the country, it's just a continuation of policies that we've been living urn forç yea now that honestly have not been creating jobs, and so it's unclear to folks, listen, who doesn't like a little extra money in their pocket? >> but the term sugar high with borrowed money from the government may be a temporary opiate for the masses, but it is very unclear as to whether it does what is necessary in this country to create the sort of jobs and good jobs that not only we need but we are capable of creating. >> as we wait for the president to sign this bill into law, do we put this in a win column? a loss column or a draw? >> i think this is definitely a victory for president obama. he managed to corral more cooperation from republicans in a very short period of time. this framework was announced on december 6th. just 11 days ago and is now going to be signed into law.

it's a significant package of tax cuts that he hopes will spur growth and create more investment and create more stability, even with families that aren't going to start a small business. just produce more growth and consumer confidence. he did make clear that much of this is in the package he doesn't like. so this is the lesser of two evils with regards to the state tax provice visions. and he is going to take credit on insurance to the unemployed for another 99 weeks. do you agree with that? i think it's a big win for the

president. the most interesting thing that's going to influence the discussion is whether people will think whether president obama really is a sellout or if they're going to allow him to swerve right. and whether he's going to be able to maintain that. it's nice to see he's doing thiç after an election. will republicans be able to leverage against a majority senate, you know, preventing the kind of rule by regulation that president obama may enact as somebody increasingly in the minority. >> mitch mcconnell urged republicans to get on board with the deal. don't republicans really pride themselves as being the pay as you go party? but they really haven't done a very good job of dealing with spending. we haven't seen what real steps they're going to take in terms of really cutting down on how

government spends on a regular basis. not just when democrats are proposing a popular omnibus. a lot of republicans are trying to get earmarks into the thing. we can't keep spending money on bioresearch projects or whatever. we have sam brown back, the next governor of kansas, trying to get money to his own state before he takes over as governor. that's a republican doing that. your thoughts on that. what we're seeing coming down the line this afternoon. do you think this is the big win? it's a small win for republicans. looking at 2012, if it works as advertised and gets the economy growing faster, getting the

unemployment rate moving down instead of staying stable or going up, that sets up an economy for 2012. it's good for obama's re-elections chances. the bottom line is heç got the republicans to go along with this by giving him what they wanted. tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. this puts off the ugly a rit tick of doing something about the deficit, which is going to involve taking stuff away instead of handing it out. and i don't think there's evidence that he can convince the republicans to accept tieer taxes as almost everybody thinks are going to be part of the solution here. when are we going to see the numbers start to drop and does this serve as a second stimulus. now the interesting thing is that before the tax deal was

signed we had seen the early evidence that the economy was picking up steam. we did have a disappointment on the jobs last month as you say. but retail sales in november turned out strong. so people are already more optimistic about next year. the stimulus package, and that is what it is. it raises the possibility that unemployment will be moving down, not rapidly, but nonetheless going in the right direction. the other thing it does is remove the major source of uncertainty. for the possibility of a dramatic rise in taxes just has the president's stimulus program is wearing off. this almost eliminates the risk of a double-dip recession. >> we let dylan go to get ready for his show. now richard, as waer hearing greg talk about the idea of how this will play out over the next two years, which really leads ups up to the next presidential

election, how does the bhous want to get americans out of the recession mentality, where it's all about saving. obviously it's not a recession. but you're right about the mentality piece of it. it's not unusual in a recovery at this point, especially a sluggish one where people are having doubts about confidence. you see corporations sitting on big piles of cash. the micro stuff. is your employer hiring or p r% firing? as long as they are moving in the right direction and you're seeing your employer hire people, feel more confident, they spend more. that leads you to a direct link to the right track. wrong track numbers the politicians care about so much. their consultants say are a good indicator of where elections go. so you want to see those numbers moving, but in the white house's

official forecast, unemployment won't come down to where the president stood when he came boo office. al sharpton entered the room for the officialing of bill into law. we're seeing other people filing in. this is at 3:50 eastern time. we keep a close eye on that. i want to talk to you about republicans. speaking of timing, taking control coming up at the turn of the year in january. the massive omnibus bill was dropped. now republicans in the house are going to have to pick this up in the new year.

i think this was an acknowledgment on the part of the leadership that president obama was not happy about signing a pork stuffed omnibus. just keep the government funded at current levels and pass the continuing resolution. the best thing is if the continuing resolution goes further than the beginning of the year. if it only goes to the beginning of the year, republicans are stuffed with major decision making right away. on their watch. that's something that they don't want. they would rather begin, you don't want to begin the majority that was ushered in by the tea party movement, spending money. which is what you do when you pass these annual spending bills. you want to start by cutting. and so it would be better for them if they can start with their cutting bills, and work on their ownç budget that will wo into the spring. so i i do think that the only knee bus bill was a defeat for the democrats. that the administration did not want it, but they didn't want to

come out publicly and say they didn't want it. >> do you agree with that? thinking that republicans have this to look forward to, and then staring them down in the face when they take over as house majority in january? >> well, president obama had endorsed this onmnibus bill. for all we know president obama is for it. this was a huge embarrassment for him, just as it was for senate majority leader harry reid. harry reid has sort of come out as this dead man walking now. he cannot keep together any sort of coalition now that his party has been defeated in november. as for republicans having the opportunity to manage the budget for the federal government as soon as they come in, fine, you know, i think that's fine. they will probably welcome that opportunity, and sure x they could probably screw it up, but it's a wonderful opportunity to showcase how serious they are when it comes to dealing with

tea party partiers. you see it with how they dealt with the omnibus. you see how they dealt with it when it came to being able to reach a compromise with the p president. they would have been fine with any conservative as far as i'm aware. >> are jp's statements on point about the president's feelings about the omnibus? >> the president dirs like the first omnibus he had to sign with 9,000 earmarks. his adviser said that's how washington works. the bigger embarrassment is seeing who campaigned against earmarks. president obama or tea party folks see this pork fill appropriations bill go through. and in scale of huge embarrassments, seeing this one die. it doesn't ripple. it's like the d.c.ç storm yesterday. >> it will always melt. we have a lot more to talk about

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we are watching the clock here because president obama will sign that tax bill compromise into law any minute from now. back again with me here is my distinguished panel, nbc news analyst richard wolffe, j.p. freer from the washington examiner. so richard, how quickly does the president and the white house want to get beyond this? >> they're very happy talking about jobs. what they want to get beyond is the turmoil, the turbulence among democrats and they may get a crack at it in terms of how

the votes go on don't ask,ç dot tell. this is a broader discussion they have to have with independent voters. that's the key voting grip they've lost over the last few years. it doesn't do them that much harm in the short term to have a fight with democrats. to say to the broader population this president isn't who you might have thought he was. they've got to get the economy moving. they have to get better job growth. the tea party folks. there's a bunch of opportunities here that weren't there just a month or two ago. so in this terrible shellacking, they have a new set of zoors that have opened up. >> how quickly do you think the republican party wants to get beyond this? >> republicans are more than happy to move beyond this.

continuing to push forward legislation. he wants us to be the last gaffe. he wants to exercise as much power before republicans come in and take over the house. there are more republicans in the senate. if they wanted so much to start arguing with democrats, he would pull him aside. could you cut this out? people want to go home. >> i want to point out to everybody as we are watching the room fill up. and other distinguished guests that are supposed to be in this room. roughly about 130 attendees will be there, including key administration officials, advocates who worked towards passing this bill as well. you just want to be a fly on the wall. open up the mikes in there and start to hear what they're talking about in that chamber.

greg, you know, as we talk about the fact that this country is suffering with 15 million americans that are out of work, what would it take and how much would the economy have to grow in order for us to all see the made up? >> i think you'd probably have to see the economy grow around 4% or better per year for another four or five years. but it's going to be a stretch considering all the headwinds that the economy is facing. this is a game of like winning yard by yard. it's not the long bond. seeing tim geithner and larry summers, it's interesting. they've been emphasizing internally and to the democrats publicly, what we got here, people thought it was politically impossible a month or two ago. the president was talking about the need for more stimulus, although he wouldn't go near the word, as far ago as september or october. that's when they ruled out the investment tax credit and the conventional wisdom is they weren't going to get it.

they are very excited they got this. it's starting to drag on the economy in the coming years. it's going be a source of stimulus. they figured the sacrifices were pretty small in order to get that. >> one of my teachers taught me that everything in life is temporary. in 24 months am i going to be asking these same questions all over again? 24 months and here we go again. this is from to richard's point, he'll really only trying to get back. he needs to get elected, a good little chunk of voters. the republicans will come around. the republicans will be bashing barack obama day and night. the democrats will come to his defense and not vote for mitt romney. this very rapid compromise, coming away from the table with

a win, he's looking to rack up some accomplishments. in this moment, he scolded both parties, all he needs to do is get the ears of nonpartisan, him in '08. they're skeptical of both parties and of the way washington works. he was talking about all he cared about was the economy and making sure middle class americans didn't see a rise in their taxes. he has two years to say either this worked or he can say two years from now, it didn't work. we tried stimulus the republicans' way. >> i want to remind everybody that we are just moments away and i thank by distinguished guests, just reminding you that we are expecting any minute from now, president obama to sign the tax cut deal being introduced by vice president joe biden. we're back after this.

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welcome back. we're moments away from watching history as president obama will sign that tax bill compromise into law. back with me nowç is richard wolffe and for a lot of people out there, they want to know the impact of this. the personal impact. for those that are working. when are we going to see the impact in our paychecks? right away? >> well, the tax rights are going to be effective in the next year in january and i think one thing that is the white house thinks has a particularly simlative effect is this cut in the payroll tax, which is going to affect people immediately, so there is an aspect to this that although conservatives want to see it on the employer side, you're going to see it right away and certainly, you would have seen a tax hike in your

paychecks right away, so yes, this happens right now. that's what the urgency was all about. >> that's what everybody wants to know. how is it going to affect them, their paychecks. we are watching and waiting for president obama to come out to sign the tax cut bill into law. vice president joe biden is going to be introducing the president when he takes to the president. roughly about 130 people are in attendanc attendance, advocates who have worked on this bill. reverend al sharpton, we saw him, also, secretary geithner as well as larry summers. when we talk about the fact we're going to see this go into effect right away, we also want to let people know about the extension of the unemployment benefits for 13 months. while everybody b that has a job is going to see their paychecks, the fact they're not going to go down in a year. they are going to know there are people out there who get the

unemployment benefit extended, excuse me. >> right. and obviously, doesn't affect all the unemployed. there are limits in states on how long you can claim these benefits. many states, that limit is 99 weeks, but if you haven't done it, this this makes a big impact. >> we're hearing more about what type of warning we're getting from the president. i'm going to thank you for your time and for being on here with me this hour. we're going to be back with much more and dylan ratigan picks up things at the top of the hour from on the road. woman: you! oh, don't act like you don't recognize me! toledo, '03? gecko: no, it's...i... woman: it's too late stanley. gecko: actually, miss, my name's not stanley. woman: oh...oh, i am so sorry! from behind you look just like him. i'm just.... gecko: well...i'd hate to be stanley. geico. 15 minutes could save you 15 percent.

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