88% of you said yes. 12% of you said no. that's "the ed show." i'm ed schultz. for more information on "the ed show" we take you to our new blog at ed.msnbc.com. rage and revolution. the middle east in crisis with chris jansing starts right now. we'll see you monday night. welcome to "rage and revolution the middle east in crisis." i'm chris jansing reporting to you frommann headquarters in new york. my colleague and co-anchor joins us from the rebel held city of benghazi in libya. good evening, richard. >> good evening, chris. once again i'm live here in benghazi. the rebels seem like they are starting and want to fight. we saw them digging in tonight bringing in reinforcements but a coup would be a lot easier. is that possible, chris? >> let's get you caught up on

the headlines first of all. more signs. gadhafi's inner circle may be crumbling. major defection number two. a former u.n. general assembly president who worked with gadhafi for decades has fled to egypt. this follows foreign minister moussa koussa's defection to the uk yesterday. the british government says it is in talks with as many as ten senior libyan officials about leaving the country. gadhafi has posted guards to prevent others from defecting. on the ground richard just talked about this. rebels are still fighting back following days of retreat. for the first time when coming under attack, they fired back with the weapons they had. now, it took a few tries to launch some of the rockets but eventually they figured it out. as nato officially took over military command today the debate over the u.s. military role heated up on capitol hill. senators on both sides of the aisle hammered defense secretary robert gates and admiral mike mullen on whether gadhafi should be a target. and as far as arming and

training the rebels gates told congress someone else, not the u.s. can do that. here's how it all played out on the airwaves today. >> as of early this morning, nato pursued command of the entire military mission over libya. >> the pressure on gadhafi is intense. the people around him are realizing the days of this regime are numbered. >> clearly, a lot of people across libya that are ready to rise up against this guy. >> the biggest development of this uprising so far and that's the defection of moussa koussa. this is a huge loss to the regime. i don't know how goat out of there but he is a storehouse of intelligence. >> we cannot afford to assume that time is on our side against gadhafi. >> i'm worried that we may have started something that we're -- that nato is not going to be in a position to finish. >> there are a number of different alternative outcomes here. only one of which is some sort of proto democracy. i think we're kidding ourselves

if we don't think there is going to be some kind of struggle for power. >> there will be blow back from libya for a very long time. >> so even though this is now a nato-led operation the reality as you well know, richard, is america is still very much involved not only in management of nato and in the air but of course on the ground and we've talked about the involvement of the cia. >> everyone is talking about the cia like this is something new like we should be very surprised. cia is certainly on the ground here. we're here. it wasn't difficult for us to come in. aide workers are here. i don't even know who half the people staying in the hotel where we are staying right now when you have a war zone it's easy just to walk across the border and it would be almost negligent if the cia weren't on the ground. we've been told there are small cia teams working with the opposition vetting the opposition and trying to help with some of the targeting. but it seems like what they're doing most effectively is working on these rifts within the internal power struggle and

i think that is where you're going to see the biggest developments coming in the next few days. not necessarily on the battle front. we're seeing a lot of back and forth. there is open desert here and the front line keeps shifting but i think it's become clear that the u.s. intelligence is not focused so much on helping these rebels march all the way to tripoli but creating divisions in tripoli, itself, and working on that internal coup. >> but as all that is unfolding and we're listening to the prayers behind you, richard, you talked a lot yesterday and in recent days about the lack of communication for the rebels between each other and i'm wondering how much they know about is sort of what's going on in the outside world, whether they're aware of where the focus is right now in terms of the u.s. and nato. >> they're aware to a small degree. they can look up in the sky and see that the western air strikes are not coming with the same pace, the same accuracy, the same froser ozty as in the firs

days. in the beginning there was a mission to save benghazi. now the submission seems to be helping the rebels but not with the same amount of force and the rebels are recognizing this and stepping up and saying they're going to have to take this fight on themselves. the rebels today on gadhafi's troops without western air support. the rebels fight with mortar and rockets. they lack experience. rebels load a rocket, it doesn't go off. after adjusting it, the rocket eventually fires. but it's way off target. moments later, gadhafi's troops fire back. there's chaos. some of the rebels retreat to safer ground but not all of them. the rebels are firing mortars and rockets at gadhafi's forces which are just behind them. gadhafi's troops are responding with what sounded like tanks and artillery shells. but for the first time here we're seeing that the rebels are staying their ground.

near the front an argument. one rebel is so angry that the others want to run away. he fires his gun at their feet. they stay and bring in reinforcements. on the road we see a convoy of weapons including dozens of what look like new rocket launchers heading out to confront gadhafi's troops. but there may be a quicker way to topple the libyan dictator. an internal coup. yesterday libya's foreign minister and former intelligence chief moussa koussa, the most powerful man in the regime outside the gadhafi family, defected to the united kingdom, a choice welcomed today by the british foreign minister. >> gadhafi must be asking himself, who will be the next to abandon him? >> reporter: in tripoli a government spokesman downplayed the significance of koussa's departure. >> i am not relying on individuals to lead this struggle. this is a struggle of a whole nation. >> accused of involvement in the lockerbie bombing and the assassination of dissidents, koussa has not been given immunity. but he has a wealth of current

intelligence and he's talking. the rebel front line right now is on the outskirts of braga and it was heading in that direction that we saw this big convoy of weapons -- rocket launchers, several hundred men going out to fight. it was the biggest convoy we've seen, the first time the rebels have moved militarily. and they seem like they want to fight gadhafi's troops. a lot different than just getting in their cars, driving in reverse, and coming back practically to benghazi where we are now. >> all right. thank you so much. we've got more now on that sharp criticism of the president's handling of libya after today's capitol hill grilling at defense secretary robert gates. some lawmakers clearly unhappy when gates said president obama has no additional military moves in mind to get rid of moammar gadhafi and that's not the only complaint. >> your timing is exquisite. at a time when the gadhafi forces have literally tragically

routed the antigadhafi forces, that's when we announced that the united states was advocating its leadership role and removing some of the most valuable assets that could be used to great effect. >> strong words from the former presidential candidate. here with reaction i'm joined now by texas congresswoman sheila jackson lee. democratic member of the foreign affairs committee. good evening, congresswoman. good to see you. >> a pleasure to be with you. >> as i watched the testimony today, listening to members of congress, they seemed to come down largely in two camps. those like senator mccain who think we aren't doing enough and those who are worried about mission creep. what do you think? >> well, i think it's ironic that frankly i am a person committed to the war powers resolution that calls on congress to involve itself in any declaration of war. i think that's important. but it's interesting to hear members who without any basis zealously supported president

bush going into iraq and now want to criticize what i believe what the necessary humanitarian action is. i don't want to see this having to include boots on the ground. i am not interested in a prolonged war. and if that was to be the case the president would have to come. i would ask for the president and many members would realize constitutionally we would want our president to come to the congress for an actual declaration of war. but i don't believe we're at that point. and how can you zealously support iraq, the eight-year war that still is not concluded and not respond to the humanitarian crisis of the killing of innocent civilians? that's what the president did. he indicated it would be a days long war. in fact, it had been days long in terms of the united states in the lead. the nato is now in the lead the question is where do we go from here? >> that is a good question. >> and other critics today in and out of congress have been unhappy frankly because the president and other administration officials have

made it very clear that they believe gadhafi has to be gone but the u.s. and the allies aren't going to do that. no boots on the ground, no direct involvement. is that the way to go? does gadhafi have to go and if so how? >> you ask a very good question. this is based upon the drilling that -- and the terrible loss of life that americans have experienced with iraq and afghanistan. members of congress have watched these wars go on and on. boots on the ground and the idea of regime change that we would make a commitment to would be a bogged down situation but there is a plan. frankly we had good news today in that two of his major confidantes have now left the country. there is rumor that he has now reached out to those in london to look for some sort of way out himself. keep the pressure on. i think the direction that we go is the same way that we're going. it is to continue to help the

rebels, to understand who they are. we have to understand who they are. >> but when you say continue to help the rebels does that mean should tol the u.s. play in that? >> i absolutely believe they should be armed and trained and learn command. and you know what? i believe we could work -- >> by the united states? >> no. i believe with our allies. we can work with our allies for them to do that. if we are called upon to make that determination i think the administration and congress can make that. we have given the kind of military assistance to all kinds of native nations that are in trouble but i think the future -- i want to focus on what the future is. the future has to be a collaborative effort with the african union, arab league, and nato in terms of what i call smart power. it is not the exact terrible you would use but to train the rebels to be involved in governance, to be able to lead a country. that's what the next step is. we're not far from it. we have had if you will

retrogression because of weather and rebels have been pushed back but i think they are beginning to be empowered and if nato continues as they did in kosovo and bosnia, those were air wars, nato wars, they started slowly but actually became victorious. we can do it again and i think we should stay strong, be against the humanitarian, any kind of devastation and emphasize to the rebels they have to be prepared to govern libya as gadhafi prepares to dismantle and leave the country. >> sheila jackson lee, congresswoman, thanks so much. >> thank you for having me. >> she talked about more defections from gadhafi's inner circle. will they sell out their former leader and hand the coalition valuable intelligence? nato wants to know. we have much more ahead as "rage and revolution" continues only on msnbc. >> announcer: this past year

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what a difference a week makes. rebels lost the momentum as quickly as they had it. now on their heels and feeling a bit desperate. when i come back we'll talk to a popular four star general and ask him the question a lot of people have been asking. why can't we just drop a bomb on gadhafi and be done with it?

i'm richard engel live in benghazi. whether or not this war is a good idea for the united states may depend on perspective. from where i am standing right now it seems like it was essential. it will be difficult for me or anyone here in the city to go

down in the streets and tell the people of benghazi that they were not worth saving. but this doesn't mean it's necessarily in the united states' interest. and to discuss this is retired four star general barry mccaffery who always tells it like it is. a good friend. thank you for staying up, general mccaffery. will you address this question? was this a good idea? i know there's a lot of debate about the weeds here. how the nato role, u.s. role, but should the u.s. be involved militarily in libya? that is really the question i want your perspective on, sir. >> well, i think, richard, it's entirely appropriate to use u.s. military power for humanitarian purposes whether earthquakes or protecting people from benghazi. my only concern would be if you have fuzzy political thinking and objectives and rhetoric then you end up with a military campaign that won't get you where you said you wanted to go. we've got to be truthful to ourselves.

we've got to bring down gadhafi. that implies a continuing, probably united nations presence in libya for the next 15 years, five years, with peacekeeping forces, building a a new institution. none of that's happening. so it's, you know, with a 10-1 preponderance of combat power in the hands of gadhafi, why would we think this is going to work? >> would we tie our hands behind our own backs? >> no question. at the end of the day if you have a mismatch between military measures we're willing to take publicly and the political objectives that were articulated we said gadhafi ought to come out. that is an appropriate national goal, international goal, and yet we're not doing the things that are rightfully going to have that as an outcome. >> i heard that difference

between when the president was saying he had this strategic objective of getting gadhafi out but a military objective of helping benghazi. what does that mean? is there -- it seems you either have one, you should have one purpose, one goal. or am i mistaken here? >> i think it's been an astonishing level of confusion on this. the air cap gave almost nothing to protect libyan civilians. neither in misratah nor benghazi. what you needed to do was strike their military center of gravity, tanks, artillery. but also his intelligence service. again, libyan armed forces are 10-1 advantage over the rebels right now in numbers and combat power. so if the u.s. steps out of this equation, takes away our enormously effective u.s. air force, it's hard to see why we're not going to end up in a stalemate civil war in libya with sort of an embarrassment to

the president's public commitment and public policy. >> is that where you think this is heading? i mean from where we were twn rendrtle alone to reach tripoli. do you think we'll be in a long ground fight here with the cia trying to pick off dsidents one by one? how do you see this playing out? >> well, if the usair power isn't a major factor in this campaign i cannot imagine why the canadians, danes, french, and brits argog ave t awacs, refueling tankers, precision munitions. only the u.s. air force or u.s. naval air power can do th iwee coming out then i think thisgadhafi's inner circl. but remember, those sons of his, ti.

again, i think we have to make up our mind. what are we going to do here? are we going to put in the measures required to bring this evil man down? >> thank you, general. i always appreciate your perspective and i think there is a lot of truth to that. waiting for cracks within a family system is going to be difficult. we may be waiting aon >>tsae au o richard, there has been a lot of good feeling within the administration and some members of congress about those defectors and if, say, a gadhafi defector played a role in the deadly bombingf pan am flight 103, should he be prosecuted or given a deal in exchange for intelligence that could force gadhafi from power? and al qaeda may be vaaghe suaon me whe nddsf ound tk tohetrts e thinrit deounose.

>> this is the town of ajdabiya about a hundred miles on the outskirts of benghazi. when rebels drove gadhafi's forces out of this town last weekend with significant help from western air strikes there was significant excitement. rebels came in firing guns in the air and people were cheering. the situation has now changed completely. gadhafi's forces have rurd al j he outirts of this town and there is a feeling of uncertainty here. the people have almost all left. they're not taking their chances. they worry gadhafi could come back in and reoccupy this town. so almost everyone has moved to benghazi. that feeling of enthusiasm and momentum that the rebels felt they had isow almost all gone. make a wish! oh. ooh.

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in my opinion any future defense secretary who advises the president to again send a big american land army into asia or into the middle east or africa should have his head examined. >> of course 20 days after he said that the united states did get involved in a war in north africa in the nation of libya. today secretary stayed just about as blunt about that conflict. >> is there any attempt or do you know if there is any time in the future that there are going to be boots on the ground in libya? >> not as long as i'm in this job. >> told you he's blunt. >> blunty pants. that was of course rachel

maddow. my colleague richard engel has been doing some fascinating coverage of the revolution in libya over the past 12 days. we wanted to give you a sense of just how fast events are moving over there. take a look. >> it's a toy gun. >> this is amazing. he just handed me his gun. i didn't realize until he put it in my hands it is actually just made of plastic. it's a toy. three explosions 50 yards away. so we were doing the interviews, incoming rounds just landed in this area. i assume the rebels are now starting to flee. there is street-to-street fighting here in ajdabiya. we are taking cover behind a bus as the rebels are trying to push out gadhafi forces that still hold large pockets of this city. the rebels reload in the middle of the street. it's hard to know where the bullets are coming from. open intersections are

especially exposed. so we run through them. they say there are snipers on the road so you have to go from cover to cover. the rebels advance. they reload. they hide behind whatever wall they can find. then they push forward. a rebel leader told us saving misrata today is as urgent as saving benghazi was two weeks ago. >> there is abuse in misrata. they have taken women out of their homes, assassinated people on site, put snipe oerns top of the buildings. mr. obama mentioned yesterday -- >> the rebels are in retreat. they have no idea how to use their weapons. we went to that rebel front line just down that road today and what we saw was nothing less than terrifying. the rebels have some weapons. they don't know what to do with them. we saw one of the rebels trying to find -- fire a mortar. a mortar is basically a tube attached to a base plate and you have to dig the base plate into the ground because the mortar is

high explosive and creates a lot of energy. they didn't do that. instead they just dropped the mortar in the tube without securing it and it wildly went off to the side, which is dangerous. but this is basic. this is basic kinds of things. the other thing we saw, even more terrifying, they fired a rocket in the wrong direction. instead of going out to gadhafi's troops it went backwards into the civilian city. we've seen the rebels go forward then come backward then go forward again. >> we still very weak. we need more weapons. most of the people go with just knives. i swear to god, just knives there. people with nothing to fight with. but they stand up and they want to. >> i know this must be an emotional time. >> yeah. >> you were separated from your friends today. >> yeah. we're still waiting for them actually. we don't know. we don't know. >> you had a rocket fall next to you today. are you okay? >> yeah. no i'm okay.

i don't care about the rockets. i don't care. i want to die actually if i can. >> richard, as i watch your reporting over the last 12 days you can't help but wonder what we'll be talking about 12 days from now or a week from now will we be talking about the rebels being armed? will we be talking about negotiations for gadhafi to step down because there have been so many defections? it's just impossible to know right now obviously. >> yeah. i think one of the things we haven't been talking about enough that we'll probably be talking about more especially if this regime collapses is misratah. there has been this effective campaign to create a bubble around benghazi and we haven't been able to know what's happening in benghazi. frankly, in misratah frankly because we can't get there. it is completely surrounded by gadhafi forces.

occasionally we get an interview with a rebel leader or civilian in misratah by telephone. not that often. if this regime does collapse and we're able to go inside we could see some real horrible things have been taking place there and i think this is going to be emernling in the days ahead as a major story. >> all right. richard engel, we will be talking to you much more. but straight ahead a first-hand account of how moammar gadhafi and his thugs captured, abused, and held four "new york times" reporters hostage for a week. and then tomorrow may be one of the most pivotal days for libya and other countries in the region with mass demonstrations planned. details on that ahead. [ horn honks ] now we're hittin' the road with the proglide challenge.

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they were taken off the streets and held captive by moammar gadhafi's thugs while covering an unfolding story in libya. we're talking about the four "new york times" journalists now speaking out for the first time ab here is photographer lindsay

odorio on how she was abused by her captors. >> my greatest fear was being taken from my colleagues. i didn't want to be separated because i was the only woman so i wanted to be sure i was always with them. we were blind folded most of the time so it was hard to judge when they would pick me up and take me away if they were also picking them up and taking them away. >> you were sexually assaulted? >> i was groped. >> how often? >> pretty much every time we -- every time we changed hands to new men. >> why do you think? >> i don't know. i think every time we ended up with a new group of men or we were passed off to people they wanted to assert their, they wanted to scare us and assert their power over us and i think with the men it was being hit in the back of the head with a rifle butt and with me it was groping. >> their story is amazing. richard obviously you've been doing this for years and years and i'm wondering if you do have a sense of when you might be in particular danger and as i was

listening as you know one of our mutual close friends is a producer who is a woman, not with you now but traveled with you for years, and how that kind of changes the equation if it often does? >> yeah, well, i was listening to that segment you were just playing right now. it is vile, disgusting, regnt d inexcusable. these reporters weren't taken by a terrorist group. they were taken by a government that claims to be legitimate. their only crime according to the government was entering the country illegally without a visa. which every reporter has done considering the visa system here in the east had completely collapsed. it is horribly wrong. and you were talking about the dynamic of having a woman in a war zone. sometimes it can be an advantage and sometimes it is an added responsibility and it really depends on the circumstance. it can be an advantage if you run into rebels, militants,

government officials who will see that as, will take that as a less threatening posture that it's not just a bunch of young military age males out there in a war zone. you look more like journalists. you have a woman with you. you've got a camera with you. that can sometimes disarm the situation. but if you run into a group that decides they want to add sexual assault to their other list of harassment then of course it's an added responsibility and potential liability. >> well, we'll be talking with one of those journalists tomorrow morning on "jansing and compa company." we want to broaden this out a little bit. after seven weeks of street protests tomorrow is being called the friday of the march forward in yemen with thousands of people expected to march on the president's palace and demand he step down. private diplomatic efforts are also under way to try to persuade him to agree to a transfer of power. as the capitol braces itself for

what will surely be not just antigovernment but also pro government demonstrators. ron allen is live in ahman, jordan, now. ron, just sort of set the scene for us if you will from your vantage point about where things stand in yemen and what we expect tomorrow. >> well, i think in yemen and syria and jordan it's a very big day today, this friday. fridays have always been the big day of protests and i, it feels like the momentum in so many places is not with the pro democracy forces. i think they need a big day. they need something to happen that really moves things forward, although of course these movements happen in a very gradual way. but it feels like the security forces in so many places are winning. yemen is perhaps the exception to what i'm saying where things are very much in chaos and turmoil and just like they could go on for a long time.

it feels like at any moment the president may just leave. there are these negotiations going on. we don't really know the detail of what's happening. clearly the flair tinarrative h that the president is trying to find ways to string this whole thing along and he seems to be relatively successful at that. here in jordan they're trying to get more big crowds out again and it's been a very quiet week here since last friday when there was that unprecedented surge in violence where the pro and anti-government forces clashed and the security forces stepped in. there was at least one person killed and there were dozens of people injured by rocks that were being thrown. syria we saw what happened on wednesday. the president made a very defiant speech where he essentially said, look. i'm going to do this on my own time if i'm going to do this at all. yesterday he made an announcement of a committee to study lifting the state of emergency. those kinds of things suggest that he doesn't feel like a--

>> ron, richard engel. thanks a lot for getting up really early all week and joining us. it has been valuable. friday of the march forward? every week they seem to come up with other nicknames for fridays. it was the friday of dignity, the friday of defiance. but yemen is in a state of paralysis right now. the protesters are going out. the government is trying to fight them, arming some of its own people, not that you need to arm the people of yemen. they already have so many weapons. >> right. >> but while all this is happening, al qaeda, particularly in the south, has declared its own little mini state in yemen. tell me more about that. they have really separated. are they implementing some kind of extremist law? >> well, it's really hard to know the dimensions of that, richard, but, yes, you are right. it's a very worrying thing and

it is part of the chaos that is yemen. yes, the al qaeda and the peninsula has declared a separate -- a place in southern yemen where the government and military are not active and have been essentially withdrawn or not really very powerful. but again it's very difficult to know what is really going on there. that is perhaps the most worrying thing about yemen is that al qaeda in that part of the world has proven that they have the ability to orchestrate attacks to the united states. and that is a big concern. and essentially that has been the -- >> where is in yemen exactly? which part of southern yemen? there are two provinces. i'm not sure to tell you the truth the dimensions of exactly where it is but the significant part of it is that this is the --

[ audio difficulty ] -- if in fact i'm not in power. the united states i believe and others are very concerned about the opposition there. they don't know if the president leaves who will emerge and what, whether they can be counted on in the fight against al qaeda. the president was a fairly reliable ally but again, it's just a very difficult situation and as i was saying of all these various regional conflicts and pro democracy movements and so forth, that's perhaps the most worrying and the most unstable situation right now. >> all right. our thanks to our colleague ron allen and of course richard will be back. if moammar gadhafi's turn coat foreign minister moussa koussa helps the coalition take down the regime should he be forgiven for involvement he may have had with the terrorist bombing of pan am flight 103? you'll meet a man at the center of that dilemma. this is msnbc's special presentation of "rage and revolution, the middle east in crisis." we're america's natural gas.

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270 people were killed in an instant when pan am flight 103 exploded over lockerbie, scotland. but if the libyan foreign minister who just defected to the uk is indeed the mastermind behind that terror act, will he pay the price and be brought to justice? ♪ that's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪ ♪ i like it, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪ that's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪ ♪ i like it [ male announcer ] introducing mio -- a revolutionary liquid water enhancer. add a little. add a lot. ♪ for a drink that's just the way you like it. ♪ i like it, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪ that's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪ [ male announcer ] make it yours. make it mio. ♪

the libyan defector and the lockerbie connection.

the foreign libyan foreign minister moussa koussa is being debriefed by the british government and they claim he has not been offered immunity from prosecution. scottish lawyers are asking to interview the libyan leader about the bombing of pan am flight 103 more than 22 years ago. moussa koussa as a senior member of colonel gadhafi's regime could know the answer to many questions. >> reporter: the british government said his defection was a sign gadhafi's regime was crumbling. that may or may not be true but what isn't in doubt is that moussa koussa's arrival here is an enormous intelligence coup. the former head of intelligence in tripoli himself and more recently foreign minister he has been at the heart of the regime for decades. it is said he may being debriefed here in surrey. if so there will be little he does not know whether about gadhafi, his sons, or the supporters and their loyalty, the money, munitions, and so on and so on. he should provide a unique window on the regime. one of those who allegedly

helped wind him in said he was so desperate to get out he left his family behind. >> just imagine his family including his wife and mom. they are still there in tripoli so nobody knows exactly what is the reaction from the regime. but that's why i think we should appreciate that, that that is really a huge decision because he is not just a normal person. he's not just like an official or a diplomat or whatever. he's moussa koussa, you know. >> that of course is the problem for the british government. invaluable as he might be now as an intelligence gold mine one is bound to ask how much blood the former libyan foreign minister has on his hands. in a joint press conference with the turkish prime minister, mr. cameron insisted there was no deal, no immunity. >> the decision by the former libyan foreign minister to come to london and resign his position is a serious blow to gaafi's thity. wehouldn't uerstimate that let mee ea us kssot being granted immunity. there is no deal of that kind.

>> given that you may not be surprised to hear that the scottish police have already said they want to question him about lockerbie and the relatives of the dead believe his arrival here could be significant. >> i'm over the moon because this guy knows everything worth knowing about the efforts by the gadhafi regime over the past 30, 40 years. so he was right at the center of things in libya at the time lockerbie happened in 1988. >> moussa koussa's arrival here does give the british government a short term intelligence coup but also possibly a long term political problem. >> so could more than two decades of questions about pan am 103 now finally be answered? and could we see moussa koussa actually be prosecuted for the lockerbie bombing? i'm joined now by bert ammerman former president and spokes person for victims of pan am 103. he lost his brother on that flight. bert, always good to see you. we have talked over the years so

i have to admit that when i heard about moussa koussa i wondered what your reaction was. what do you think? >> i was elated. i've been elated the last five weeks. i never thought in my lifetime i would see gadhafi overthrown or removed from power. we to go. there is nothing different

between gadhafi and his son and hussein and his sons. they are not going peacefully. if we think sanctions and waiting him out and the rebels are going to do it is not going to happen. we're in this now. let's move in, take care of it, and remove them from power. >> i was surprised by that report, chris, from the british partner. what kind of guy leaves his family behind? he is so worried about defecting that he goes over and leaves his wife and kids at home. i want to ask the guests, what do you think should happen? you want him to be debriefed and then sent to prison? how do you see this developing? >> i equate this, richard, to back here to the united states when john gotti was found years ago guilty and sammy "the bull" cravano who killed many people became the key witness to put gotti in prison. if this man gives credible evidence that can lead to the removal of gadhafi and make the connection which is going to take place that gadhafi ordered the bombing of pan am 103 i can

support immunity. because gadhafi is the big fish here. moussa is just one of the many gupies involved in this regime for over 40 years. >> so worst case scenario for you, the worst feeling in the gut of your stomach which you've had many times over the last 22 years, is that gadhafi is allowed to step down, go into exile, bring a few of the billions he has stolen from his people with him and live out his years? >> i've been giving a lot of thought to that all day yesterday and today and i never thought i would be making the following statement. even if gadhafi is given asylum and he is removed from power and his sons are removed from power, that means that thousands to hundreds of thousands of libyan citizens would not be killed. i would even accept that. because then my brother and loved ones didn't die in vain because they were protecting hundreds of thousands of innocent libyan citizens. yes, that would be very tough for me to do but again, i reiterate, i didn't believe in my lifetime we'd be this close. what bothers me is our

government is so involved in the politics and i got to listen to the republicans grandstanding, boehner and mcconnell and the rest of them. the only ones that make sense are mccain and kerry and they were presidential candidates. they realize what this is about. we must go in quickly. we do not stay. they must go. once they're gone we get out. i get insulted when i hear people say what's going to follow gadhafi? it can't be any worse. it's been 40 years. so i'm not concerned what follows him. he has to go if there is any a second term. >> bert, you're concerned for the libyan people and your generosity in saying the main thing is they be protected gave me chills frankly given what you've been through over the last 22 years. it's always a pleasure as i said to see you and i'm sure we'll talk again as we watch how this all plays out. thank you for coming in so late. >> thanks, chris. >> straight ahead final thoughts for richard and i. stay with us. this was me, best ribs in nelson county,

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chris, i wanted to go back for a plomoment to that point r allen was making. while war continues here in libya and there is chaos in yemen al qaeda in the yennd reason i asked ron where this state is taking place and where it is being established is because osama bin laden himself, his family, is from a region in southern yemen and it seemed incredibly important, ironic, significant that because a pro democracy movement has put yemen in paralysis, al qaeda is taking this opportunity to create its own little fifedom in the area where osama bin laden is from. >> it's one thing you and i have talked about this week, whether the unrest, not obviously just in libya but throughout the

region could prove an opportunity for al qaeda and other terrorist orgizations. one more question i wanted to ask you tonight is that we haven't seen moammar gadhafi in a while. i know they were talking about him on libyan state television today but what do you think is going on with that? are you surprised frankly that libyan state television is still on the air, that we haven't taken it out? >> yeah. libya state television is one of the most ridiculous things that we've seen in this entire conflict. just a tiny little anecdote. early on we were watching libyan state television and one of the banners across the bottom of the screen said that president obama has lost his legitimacy and should be removed from power. we were reading the banner and looked up and said, the reason they said he lost his legitimacy is because he has been exposed for the watergate scandal. and we looked and said, watergate scandal? what are they possibly talking about? it was like the nazis bombed pearl harbor.

it was one of those kind of moments. the propaganda machine is incredibly powerful. it is ridiculous. it is miseducating the people of this region and has for decades and the fact that it is still on the air, i don't know why it hasn't been targeted. it is a joke but it is deliberately misleading the people of libya and has long been doing that. >> would it seem to be an easy thing to do to take it out? >> not so easy. you remember during the iraq war they kept trying to take out the state television in iraq. >> i remember that now. >> they kept moving on satellite trucks and it was sort of a little cat-and-mouse game. i don't think it's taken seriously by enough people to waste the million dollars i think it cost per tomahawk missile to take down this clown of an organization. >> it's been great working with you this week and we thank you for staying up well into the