ridgewood, new jersey, for a book signing. my new book "knowing your value." how's that for shameless? jonathan capehart. >> i'm going to continue your shameless plug. >> good, quickly. >> and i learned how to go in there and get that money. >> willie. >> you stole my line. you'll be in my hometown of ridgewood, new jersey, bookends. >> if it's way too early. >> it's "morning joe." stick around for "the daily rundown" with chuck and savannah. fog of war. what happened in the moments before bin laden was killed? why the administration narrative is changing. also, nbc has learned a decision is expected today to whether to release the ghastly photo of bin laden's body. the white house appears to be leaning against it, but the cia director told brian williams it's inevitable. >> i don't think there was any question that ultimately a photograph would be presented to the public. and in the 2012, the mitch daniels factor. the not-yet candidate who's

quickly becoming a republican favorite. good morning, it's wednesday, may 4th, 2011. i'm savannah guthrie. >> and i'm chuck todd. all the scrutiny on pakistan. as the debt debate returns to washington, is time running out for congress's gang of six? we'll start with bin laden. u.s. agencies are just beginning to sift through what has been called a potential gold mine of intelligence taken from osama bin laden's compound. including thousands of electronic files and paper documents. >> cia director leon panetta talked about it on "nbc's nightly news." >> we picked up an awful lot of information there at the compound. if you combine that with the ability to continue questioning the family, this could give us a lot of valuable information regarding threats, regarding the location of other high-value targets. and regarding the kind of operations that we need to conduct against these terrorists.

>> nbc's jim miklaszewski live for us from the pentagon with more. mik, what can you tell us? >> we've heard it described as motherlode, a treasure trove. safe to say there's tons of this stuff that these hundreds of analysts will be going through both at the cia and fbi. they're obviously going to be looking for identities of people, locations, telephone numbers, addresses, paper trails, bank accounts, follow the money. it's true in politics and in terrorism. if you follow the money, you can find out where the next terrorist strike may be. and, of course, they're going to look very carefully to determine, you know, for a long time we've heard about these so-called sleeper cells, al qaeda operatives believed to be in europe, in canada, in the united states just waiting for the right signal to trigger some kind of terrorist attack in any of these locations. so i believe that some of these analysts are going to be looking m particularly for that to see if there's anything that could be

pending in europe, canada or the united states. quite frankly in the interim, while there is a lot of concern there could be retaliation for the death of osama bin laden, some analysts believe that many of these people are going to be too busy covering their trails to think about carrying out any terrorist attacks in the short term. >> hey, mik, let's talk about the changing account. yesterday in the white house briefing room, jay carney read directly and then we got it e-mailed to us later a new narrative of what happened in the compound. on monday, of course, we know that the story was bin laden, the implication was he participated in the firefight and that he used his wife as a human shield, and she was killed. on tuesday, the story changed. he was unarmed and his wife rushed one of the navy s.e.a.l.s, and she was shot. this is not uncommon. explain why, though, this narrative has changed over the last 48 hours. >> well, you can imagine the chaos. it's dark. there's gunfire everywhere.

those special operators are moving through that compound. they're not entirely familiar, of course, with the interior of the compound. so they're picking their way very carefully but at the same time agres everybogressively be don't want to arrive at the scene too late. with all that chaos with gunfire and the like, there are going to be differing accounts, obviously. here in the united states, if there's a crime scene, even an accident, you can get all sorts of accounts from all the witnesses who believe it's what they saw. and quite frankly, it is an absolute truism in war, in any kind of military operation that first reports are always wrong. so you take what you get first and then you accept the fact that that's going to be a changing narrative over time. >> all right, jim miklaszewski, good perspective from the pentagon. one other note on this, some have said if bin laden was unarmed, does that mean that u.s. forces weren't justified in

killing him? my understanding is they're still within their authority because there was resistance in the compound. the totality of the circumstances are, there's a firefight. people are shooting. they come upon him on the third floor. it's dark. someone rushes the commando. so my understanding is that they were well within their authority to fire a lethal shot to bin laden in that scenario. >> and as leon panetta said in the interview, they had a kill order. it was literally the bar had to be bin laden almost walking out of the compound hands up. with a white flag waving and saying, please come arrest me. meanwhile, we should talk about this debate within the d administration over whether to release photos of bin laden, of his body. i've had them described to me by several sources as ghastly, a gaping wound over the left eye. they're bloody. there's brain matter visible. and your sources are telling you in some ways the president is leaning against releasing them.

>> basically, it's leon panetta. he has publicly said it, that he thinks it's inevitable. the goal was to make sure they had this evidence if they needed it. but right now everybody in that west wing, the most senior advisers, they are having a hard time making the case for releasing it. the state department and the pentagon, it's been implied that they are both against, secretary clinton, i'm told, worried about what it could do to inflame passions. so that's the debate. as you reported earlier, if they do release something, that they're going to make a decision today one way or the other. >> and the trepidation is they didn't want to create a shrine of a burial site. they don't want to create an icon. >> but they need to shut this debate down. that's why they want to basically say go or no go today. >> exactly. the president plans to visit ground zero in new york tomorrow. it's his first official trip to the world trade center site as president. he'll lay a wreath and meet with

families of 9/11 victims. the president invited former presidents george w. bush and bill clinton to join him. president bush declined the invitation, a spokesman saying that mr. bush plans to attend the tenth anniversary at ground zero in september and bill clinton is unlikely to attend due to schedule conflicts. on the "today" show this morning michael bloomberg said it's important the country never forget the important lessons of 9/11. >> if you go down to the world trade center site, enormous amount of construction, that's just, i think, symbolic of the fact that america has withstood the worst attack it's ever had from outsiders on its shores and it's come out stronger than ever. let's move a little bit to 2012 politics. a new poll proves media buzz doesn't mean votes for would-be candidates. a. found that while trump or palin are in the mix for the republican nomination, the majority of republicans -- of americans say they would never actually vote for them. mark murray, nbc's deputy political director. a lot of action happened

yesterday, believe it or not, under the radar of candidates getting closer to running. >> exactly. yesterday we found out that rick santorum is officially filing his exploratory committee. jon huntsman, former utah governor and ambassador to china, ended up forming a political action committee with the federal election commission. this allows him to go to places like the commencement address he's delivering in south carolina later this week. >> there was another pac that was started for him. >> correct. that was called horizon, and that was created by his supporters. because he was a civil servant working in the obama administration. but now that his job is finished, he has h-pac, and that's huntsman's actual political action committee. and then, of course, we have mitch daniels who's stepping in the spotlight, the indiana governor is giving a highly anticipated speech on education and has a lot of people buzzing about his possible presidential ambitions.

>> let's show the quinnipiac poll chuck mentioned. 58% sarah palin, 58% trump, gingrich, huckabee, romney, almost in reverse order in which they get discussed on cable television. apparently voters aren't buying it. >> it gives you a sense which republicans are most electable and which ones aren't. of course, it's really not surprising us who's looked at the poll so far that palin and trump aren't as electable as romney right now or even if huckabee ends up getting into the race. >> there is a debate tomorrow night. there are more people not going than going. >> absolutely. the high profile, the top-tier republican who will be in attendance is tim pawlenty, former minnesota governor. milt romney is not in attendance or gingrich. >> of course, huckabee, palin, ones we don't even know if they're running. >> exactly. it is the first debate, but not everyone will be there. >> deputy political director keeping an eye on things. coming up next, we've all heard about the fog of war. how is it the story of bin laden's death, those moments,

continues to change. plus, the white house weighs the desire to prove to the world that bin laden is dead against concerns about creating an iconic image for a new generation of radicals to cling to. >> or for idiots to make t-shirts. and still to come, what becomes of al qaeda without osama bin laden? and is the face of the world's newest, most-wanted man this guy? but first, a look ahead at the president's schedule. not a lot publicly today. though there is a wounded warriors project. we may hear a little more talk about bin laden today. you're watching "the daily rundown" on msnbc. there's another way to minimize litter box odor: purina tidy cats. tidy cats premium line of litters now works harder to help neutralize odors in multiple-cat homes. and our improved formula also helps eliminate dust.

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the authorities we have on bin laden are to kill him. and that was made clear.

but it was also, as part of their rules of engagement, if he suddenly put up his hands and offered to be captured, then they would have the opportunity, obviously, to capture him. but that opportunity never developed. >> well, there's some new questions this morning about the changing narrative of the moments before bin laden's death. the administration has revealed that bin laden was unarmed when a commando shot him on the third floor of his secret compound. on monday top aides had said bin laden had been part of a firefight. still, officials insist bin laden resisted capture and that given the circumstances, taking him prisoner was not an option. >> mark is the white house correspondent for the national journal group. and matt frei is host of "bbc world news america." matt, let me start with you. what are the implications to the world and the u.s. in this story when they see it change? >> when it changes? i think in this part of the world, not that much.

in europe, probably not much either. put in the middle east, the most important audience you're addressing, it does matter. you'll be surprised by the number of people we spoke to in pakistan who still don't believe that was osama bin laden. they still can't quite believe that he lived there. you might say that they're crackpots, but changing the narrative like this, which has to be a bit of sloppiness, really doesn't help to unify the message and get it out there and convince people. now, i'm not saying that they've lost the message battle on this one. but it doesn't help. >> all those issues also raise the question of whether the photos should be released, but let's stay on the topic of the changing narrative for a moment. and i think all of our sources are consistent in saying that the reason you got that changing narrative was because frankly all the interviews, the after-action reports hadn't been filed. they hadn't done all the full, complete gathering of information. and it showed. >> when the s.e.a.l.s finished their mission, they were in quarantine for a little bit in afghanistan. there were some interviews

conducted with them. there was a drone video overhead that had yet to be analyzed. john brennan, when he first gave the detailed rundown of what happened, did so less than 12 hours after the mission had been completed. in fact, the s.e.a.l.s weren't formally debriefed until yesterday as part of the hotwash process. so it's not entirely surprising that as memories are being deacon flikted, critical parts of the story are changing. it is absolutely crucial for the white house to get as quickly as possible out these questions, for example, was osama bin laden armed? it's going to make the case for what the u.s. did, the legality of invading essentially a sovereign cannot tri and assassinating somebody a little more difficult if the person was unarmed, but they have to get that out early. >> matt, isn't it better that is the white house and the government changing the story first before our reporting, talks to somebody? >> of course. >> in this case, they sit there

and say hey, look. we're trying to get the information, when we realized new information, we gave it. >> it undercuts anybody if they deliberately lied. if they themselves correct the record. >> they've been so good about keeping the whole mission secret. there was no leakage there. it surprised me slightly that this was handled in a -- let's put it baby messy way. the same way with the pictures which we'll talk about later on. >> since you bring it up, let's ask mark about what your sources are telling you about the desire to release the photographs. i know we are hearing of a con fli conflict. some members of the administration think there's no upside of releasing the photos. leon panetta thinks itself inevitable. >> one reason they don't want the photos released is because they believe it would inflame already inflamed tensions in the region. and remember, there's a lot of u.s. assets and personnel there that could be subject to attack. so in the short term, they're very worried about retaliation

and preprireprisal. at this point, even though there remains suspicion in pakistan that he's not dead, no one officially from al qaeda is denying that he's not dead. and we will know when there's no osama bin laden videotape, you know, in a month or so. the only people who are asking this question at this point are american media for the most part. >> leon panetta can go on network television and say they should be released. there are many people in the white house who think they shouldn't. the fact that this debate is being conducted in public four days after the event is strange. they have to get their message straight because it is really important. >> the fact that they planned everything, including the taking of photographs for the purpose of supplying proof, and it was planned over a course of, what, eight, nine months, one would think this decision also could have been made. we know what we're going to do. >> but maybe in the messiness of this particular kill, you know, just the way that the body looks. >> you mean that it's so

ghastly? >> it's so ghastly it couldn't possibly be released. >> let's get this straight. nobody oversees this demanding to see proof that he's dead at this point, it is only a media obsession. >> not even the people who doubt it. they don't necessarily want to see the body. they're not going to believe it. >> if they doubt it -- >> they'll say something must have been photo shopped. no one is going to -- >> there's a big demand for it. and we are talking about it, and here we go again. i bet you the longer we talk about it and the more this is subject for discussion, the more likely it is these pictures will actually be released at the end of the day. >> marc from "the national journal," matt frei of the bbc, thank you very much. with everyone strapped for cash, who knows more about how to spend tax dollars, local vt go governments or washington? first, our "washingtonspeak," scrub.

it's intel speak means going over material with a fine-tooth comb. for example, a special cia task force has already started scrubbing the five computers, ten hard drives and more than 100 discs and thumb drives filled with al qaeda secrets. >> and dvds. there's some osama bin laden videos that were in the making. if you'd like us to clarify like hotwash. >> how about pocket litter? >> send us an e-mail and we'll be right back. id wrinkle repair. it has the fastest retinol formula available. in fact, it's clinically proven to smooth wrinkles in just one week. so all you have to do is sit back and watch your wrinkles go away. new rapid wrinkle repair.

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while congress battles over the big-picture federal spending levels, it's the nation's cities where the rubber meets the road. >> everything from public transit to housing projects are on the chopping block. it's up to local governments to make it work. we're going to talk to somebody on the front lines.

he chairs the transportation committee for the u.s. conference of mayors. mr. mayor, thanks for joining us. >> good morning, chris and savannah. >> let me start with this issue of obviously we know that there's a lot of cuts coming that affect the stuff that you deal with every day in transportation funds, in particular. what could you live without in, you know, in lieu of so if you want these transportation funds back, what are you willing to live without from the federal government? >> well, we think that first of all, we need stability. so we still don't have a long-term transportation funding bill. we're hoping that we'll get a six-year bill so that at least we know what the rules of the roads are and exactly how much is going to be available. as you know, right now that isn't in place at all. i think that the chairman is working hard to get a bill and that senator boxer is working hard as well.

but we don't have a long-term transportation funding mechanism in place right now to cover a six-year period of time or even a 24-month period of time. and i think it's important to point out that the tools we are asking for largely don't add to the federal credit card, if you will. the tifia program we feel is an outstanding loan program. we feel we need an inf infrastructure investment in bank. the president has talked about this at length. we believe it's time to actually get that done on the part of the congress. so these are funding mechanisms that governments that are local governments and state governments, state of georgia is one of eight states in america with a aaa credit rating by all three agencies. so we need to have the capacity to use the federal lending structure to get infrastructure work done so we can get folks working again. >> and mayor, the u.s. conference of mayors released some statistics making the case that cities deserve investments saying that they account for 86%

of employment, 90% of wage income, 94% of the nation's economic growth over the next 20 years. explain. >> well, the fact of the matter is, if you look at the gdp, it's created in america's major metropolitan areas. so if we're thinking about how are we going to get people working again, how are we going to get the nation moving again, we believe infrastructure is the path. the secretary of the treasury has released a report that shows that during the american recovery and reinvestment period, that we got people back to work in verifiable jobs that were related to infrastructure. we just don't believe that enough of that funding went to america's cities. and we want to make sure that as we have all of the conversations about the deficit, that we don't forget the importance of job creation and infrastructure investment. it is as if the national conversation has moved from where it was when we were trying

to get folks back to work and investing in the country purely to a conversation about deficit reduction. and we think that working people and that infrastructure investment are getting lost in the conversation, and that's why we stepped up to talk about it on yesterday. >> are you worried that you're going to have to raise taxes? >> no. i don't believe that we have to raise taxes at least unless we're doing it in a volunteer fashion. in the city of atlanta and in the metro area in 2012, we have a ten-county vote for a referendum to levee a 1% sales tax across the region. now, that's voluntary. so we're trying to take on our infrastructure problems ourselves. it seems to me that communities that take on this problem themselves should go to the front of the federal line, if you will, so that we can draw down federal dollars and get federal help and federal matches. >> all right. mayor kassim reed from atlanta. we know mayors are on the front lines of these battles. it's good to get your

perspective today. thank you. >> thank you, chris and savannah. coming up next, we're going to dig into the question people all around the world are asking. what will happen to al qaeda now since its leader is gone? we'll have a look at the man believed to be osama bin laden's successor. >> maybe the final 9/11 conspirator left alive. first today's trivia question. with the resignation of john ensign, there are just two pairs of senators from the same state who have run against each other for the senate. who are they? yesterday there was a hint. the answer and more coming up on "the daily rundown." ♪ that's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪ ♪ i like it, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪ that's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪ ♪ i like it [ male announcer ] introducing mio -- a revolutionary liquid water enhancer. add a little. add a lot. ♪ for a drink that's just the way you like it. ♪ i like it, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪ that's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪ [ male announcer ] make it yours. make it mio.

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visits to the states. a storm left the city in shambles. students in birmingham returned to school yesterday and in huntsville, the schools reopen tomorrow. the opening bell has just rung on wall street. investors are looking ahead to friday's april jobs report that economists predict will be slightly weaker than last month's. today the market willing driven by major earnings reports from anheuser-bus anheuser-busch, whole foods and intel expected to make a, quote, major announcement at 12:30. other stories making headlines this wednesday, river levels in the midwest are slowly dropping. one day after the army corps of engineers blew a hole in a missouri levee. the levee had been keeping farmland dry but was causing extensive flooding in cairo, illinois. as of 9:00 last night, the ohio river had fallen by over a foot and a half. rebels in libya say they are low on cash. fighters battling moammar

gadhafi's troops say that oil has largely stopped flowing to the rebel-held areas, and financial activity is at a standstill. a car bomb explosion in baghdad has left at least 16 dead, several others wounded. the blast occurred late tuesday night at a cafe filled with iraqis watching a soccer game. no one has yet claimed responsibility. well, with osama bin laden gone, al qaeda's long sought-after number two, ayman al zawahiri, is expected to take over leadership of the terror group. >> but just who is al zawahiri, and what does the ascension to the number one spot mean to the ongoing war against terror? richard engel joins us now. richard, the one thing i understand about him is that he's not very popular. he isn't going to be a unifying figure. and this is stuff that intel folks have picked up via phone call eavesdropping. >> they're saying he's not charismatic. >> reporter: he's certainly not charismatic. he's not the ideological or spiritual leader of al qaeda.

he was much more of an operations chief. he was very close personally to osama bin laden. ayman al zawahiri, 59 years old, an egyptian, described as abrasive, arrogant but also very experienced. he has more history working with islamist militant groups than even bin laden did. he was arrested in egypt in 1982 in connection with the assassination of the late president anwar saddat. he was not directly implicated, and he was released from prison in 1984. the alliance he made with bin laden, however, in 1998 really expanded the operations and the capabilities for both zawahiri and bin laden. because in this alliance, bin laden brought money. he brought charisma. and ayman al zawahiri brought his experience. and the two of them worked together, expanded al qaeda, really helped co-found this

group. and because of his medical background, people also say that ayman al zawahiri, who's always had this intense interest in developing chemical and biological weapons. so although he might not be as charismatic, he's certainly a dangerous person. >> so zawahiri appears able to succeed bin laden in terms of operations or functionally the head of al qaeda, but what about the yemeni cleric anwar alachi? would he take the inspirational place of osama bin laden? >> reporter: there will certainly be something of a power struggle for that symbolic role, the person bho attracts the new recruits. and he would be the obvious candidate to fill that role. al qaeda has changed over the last decade dramatically. it started out with this centrally organized, centrally commanded organization -- al zawahiri will take over that al

qaeda central command. but it is also divided up into many splinter groups with al qaeda franchises operating in iraq, in the arabian peninsula, being involved in that one, and that branch, which is based in yemen, has been very aggressive. it has tried to attack the united states several times. you'll remember the printer cartridge bomb, the underwear bomber, both of these attacks launched by the branch of al qaeda in the arabian peninsula. and anwar has been one of the most charismatic members of that organization. >> all right. getting all these names straight, zawahiri and al alachi. richard engel in libya, thank you very much. he got into the point of with bin laden gone, he was the funder. he had the money. it's not clear where they're going to get the money now. >> yeah. exactly. the aftermath of osama bin laden's killing may very well impact the war in afghanistan.

military spending and a host of other concerns. >> many of those issues, of course, the chairman of the house armed services committee, and he joins us now. congressman, thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me. >> i wonder what you think the impact of bin laden's death will have on the war in afghanistan. obviously, the president, under tremendous pressure to start drawing down troops. he's promised to begin some kind of drawdown this summer. are you concerned that given war fatigue that people will think, well, we've accomplished our ultimate objective. bin laden is dead. it's time to give up on this effort in afghanistan. >> no, i think the effort in afghanistan is to make sure that there never is another sanctuary where al qaeda, taliban or anyone else can have a safe haven to plan, prepare and launch another attack on the united states. so the effort there must go on. i think that what the drawdown will be, i'm sure that our

military leaders and the secretary and the president will be looking at plans over the next couple months, and we'll hear about those as time goes on. >> congressman, one of the leading republican candidates for president last night in iowa, tim pawpawlenty, he seemeo indicate that it is time to start speeding up. general petraeus said it could be done in the next year and a half, that quite a few troops could be pulled out of afghanistan. and you move more toward a counterterrorism force that's always around, ready to strike, if necessary. are you comfortable with a plan long term that was more focused in that direction when it comes to military spending, more money for special forces, counterterrorism, a little less money for these big, large troop movements and keeping large numbers of troops in afghanistan. >> right now i think both are needed. i've been there a couple of times, a little over a year ago, and then just a couple of months ago. and i met with general petraeus and all the leaders on the ground. i think we made great

improvement from the first time to the second time i was there. and we know that we're going to have a tough spring and summer depending on how hard the taliban wants to come back. i know we've degraded their leadership a lot. and i know the plan is to pull the troops out by 2014, to turn over the control to provinces. i know we're ready to turn over a couple of the provinces right now. and i think we're on a plan to enhance their military capabilities. the 70,000 recruits that we brought into the army last year, we've been working hard to get them educated up to third grade level where they can communicate and understand what's going on better and be able to provide their own security within their country. and i think we're on target to do that. if they can do it sooner, so much the better. but i think that it's better to be successful than to rush getting out and leave all that we've accomplished. >> congressman, what about

pakist pakistan? as you well know, your colleagues on the hill, democrats and republicans, frankly, are questioning what pakistan knew about bin laden's location when they knew it or which parts of the government potentially knew that he was there. they're looking hard at the billions in aid that the u.s. sends to pakistan. what are you advising your colleagues on this issue? >> i think pakistan is very important to our effort in afghanistan. the border is not clearly defined. and pakistan has been working hard to help us on their side of the border. i know we can criticize. we find things that maybe they should do better. all in all, they have pulled troops from the indian border, which is a big move for them. they have 140,000 troops on the border. they've lost a lot of people in this effort. they've lost about almost ten generals. >> do you think they have knowledge, though? just out of curiosity, do you suspect somebody knew? >> you know, there's a lot of

people in pakistan. somebody may have known. it seems almost incomprehensible that someone couldn't know. however, i know our fbi wanted -- they've looked for people in our country and taken them years to find. i think the important thing is whether they knew or not, he's dead. we've accomplished that. it took a long time, but we've accomplished it. >> very quickly, do you think the white house should release a photo of osama bin laden, a dead osama bin laden? >> i don't see much to be gained by it. i think that that's the president's decision. he has a lot more information than i do. i see some down side to it. but i think that that's his decision to make. >> congressman buck mckeon, chairman of the house armed services committee, one of the key players on capitol hill. thanks for joining us on "the daily rundown." >> thank you very much. all right. trivia time. we asked, with the resignation of john ensign, there are just two pairs of u.s. senators from the same state who have run

against each other for the senate. ensign, of course, ran against harry reid and lost in a very close race in 1998. then he won a senate seat in his own right two years later. >> we have south dakota senators johnson & thune as well as wyoming senators enzi and barrasso. chuck said there was a hint basra basecaus because barrasso was on our air yesterday. >> he won a special election the next year. in south dakota, senator tim johnson beat john thune in 2002. then thune went on to win against some senator a lot of people are familiar with by the name of tom daschle. next up, new questions from capitol hill about those billions of dollars that we send in aid over to pakistan. why some lawmakers say we're throwing money down the drain and propping up an unreliable

ally. senator bob menendez joins us next. first, "the white house soup of the day," roasted red pepper and tomato. thoughts? >> well, it isn't just really tomato soup with maybe a little more flavor? >> it is. >> let's be realistic. it's good. tomato soup, you could use more flavor. >> it's a glorified tomato soup. you're watching "the daily rundown" only on msnbc. ♪ [ male announcer ] in 2011, at&t is at work,

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"daily flashback," on this day in 1970, ohio national guardsmen opened fire on a group of anti-war demonstrators at kent state university in ohio. four students were killed.

nine others were wounded. >> it was sort of a -- some people see that as sort of the start of the world noticing that there was a growing anti-war movement. of course, it was pretty big in '68 as well. well, the death of bin laden clearly doesn't end the war against al qaeda, but in the minds of many americans, it does close a painful chapter. >> the focus, of course, is now shifting to the war in afghanistan, also whether pakistan deserves billions of dollars in u.s. aid when a terror leader can hide out in a town packed with pakistani soldiers. let's get to senator robert menendez, democrat of new jersey, also member of the foreign relations committee. snork senator, chuck and i have been taking a poll of our guests this morning about the issue that faces the white house right now, whether or not to release a photo of osama bin laden's body. where do you stand on this issue? is it necessary to release a photo? >> well, look, normally the type of graphic photos, i understand, that exist, we wouldn't want to

release, but i think in the nature of this particular case so that people have no doubt in their minds, although i don't think there's any doubt, so that people have no doubt in their minds that it probably would be worthy of releasing. >> part of the closure process. >> well, certainly for the 700 new jersey families that lost a loved one on september 11th, i've heard from several of them who really believe that they would like to have an opportunity to see the photos. they want some type of tangible proof. and i understand that feeling. and so in some way or fashion, certainly they should have that opportunity. and the question is whether we disseminate it more broadly. >> let's talk about pakistan. i guess the question is where

does the u.s. go with pakistan now? already this relationship was very fragile. now, of course, pakistan is angry about this unilateral action across its borders. many lawmakers, maybe you count yourself among them, are frustrated with pakistan at a minimum about the fact that osama bin laden was able to hide out in a compound that in some ways, at least in retrospect, stuck out like a sore thumb. i wonder what you think our policy should be, whether strings should be attached to further aid. >> well, you know, in the fiscal year '10 defense authorization bill, i included language, because i was already concerned then about pakistan, to make sure that our assistance to them was actually be used in pursuant to our national security interests. and the reality is, it's almost incredible to believe that, you know, less than 40 miles from pakistan's capital in what is largely a military town of retirees and former intelligence officers that no

no one knew that there was a high-value target, if not bin laden himself there. so there's a lot of explaining here to do. pakistan is, however, in a bind. either they are totally incompetent or they are come police is it. either way there is leverage to be used. and now this is still, however, an important relationship. we still want to conduct drone attacks against al qaeda. we still want to have cia operatives on the ground. and so, you know, the question is, can we get the type, at this moment, with the leverage that we have, can we get the type of response we want. if we can't, then certainly we shouldn't continue this level of aid. >> senator, i had somebody tell me, who understood the details of the operation very intimately say, you know what, if the state knew that bin laden was there and was protecting them, then they would have had a better -- they would have known when blackhawk helicopters were ho r hovering. and the fact that they didn't for nearly 40 minutes tells them

this wasn't a fish -- they weren't officiially protecting him. there may bb people inside of pakistan so it may go to the incompetency issue. >> may very well be or some level of the government that clearly has an understanding that bin laden was there. and what that level is and how sensitive it is to our sharing of national security information and intelligence information in pursuit of al qaeda is incredibly important. so, you know, the jury is out but there is certainly a very significant amount of information that we want to collect as we decide. as a matter of fact, the fiscal year '12 budget talks not about $1.3 billion to pakistan but $3 billion to pakistan. well, before we increase aid to pakistan we better know exactly who we're dealing with and what we're getting. >> senator menendez, member of the foreign relations committee of new jersey state who paid dearly on 9/11.

thank you for your time. of course, we will be right back. we want to do a programming note first. on thursday, andrea mitchell will be in haug for "education nation's" on the road. followed by the interview with education secretary arne duncan. the evening will include a panel discussion at the skills and knowledge required for today's students to compete in tomorrow's economy. tune in, watch the event live at 8:00 on educationnation.com.ackg . you've been stuck in the garage, while my sneezing and my itchy eyes took refuge from the dust in here and the pollen outside. but with 24-hour zyrtec®, i get prescription strength relief from my worst allergy symptoms. it's the brand allergists recommend most. ♪ lily and i are back on the road again. where we belong. with zyrtec®, i can love the air®.

before we go we will take a dip in the shallow end. we have seen first lady michelle obama put on her dancing shoes before but not like this. the first lady, check it out. she got down at local washington, d.c. middle school. >> there's more. >> we've got to show more. no, no, no. it gets better. >> really? >> yeah. there you go. that's the photo. >> is that like a cabbage patch? >> yes.

anyway, she rocked it. this is part of a let's move campaign promoting healthy living. the sound track to this dance-athon, by beyonce "move your body." >> it's cabbage patch. >> let's see your move. >> it's when she cabbage patch. >> when she got you? >> that is it for the "daily rundown." coming up next on msnbc -- >> at 1:00, don't miss "andrea mitchell reports." >> happy birthday, margaret. see you tomorrow. ♪

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osama bin laden had 500 euros in cash and two telephone numbers sewn into the clothing he was wearing when he was killed. we're told the picture is gruesome with a gaping wound above bin laden's left eye. should the white house release the terrorist's final images? and the fog of war. the more we learn about the operation the more conflicting th