everybody. "hardball" starts right now. photo no no. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, no photo op. the white house made it official today, there will be no release of any postmortem osama bin laden photos to prove he's dead. good call, i think. in a matter of seconds that photo would have gone viral and used by the haters to create more hatred of america. ask yourself this one if somebody still doesn't believe he is dead, is a photo going to change his mind? plus, did torture work? let's throw out the euphemisms like enhanced interrogation techniques. what we are doing what we are talking about here is torture and torture, did it or did it not provide the key information that led to bin laden?

let's look at how they caught him and what they used to get him. president kennedy once said victory has 100 fathering, but no fathers, but no matter how hard they try, the republicans can't take this one away from president obama. but watch them keep trying to. also, bin laden's death has reignited the fight over whether we should stay in afghanistan. this is a big one. senator lindsey graham says he is worried it will "create an unholy alliance of right and left on leaving afghanistan." well, he could be right. let me finish tonight with this question, the same one with we start with how many people will die if osama bin laden's photo gets out there. we start with president obama's decision not to publish it picture of the late not great bin laden. msnbc political analyst eugene robinson -- boy, are you raring to go columnist for the "washington post" and joan walsh is editor at large for salon.com. since gene really wants to do this, go ahead why do we have to show for the prurient out there, for the bar fly out there sitting out there who can't wait

to sit out there and look at this thing, who would have gained by a picture of the dead guy? >> i would have shown the pictures, gruesome though it may not and not to do with the conspiracy theorists who will believe what they want to believe anyhow. why this would have inflamed some people, think it would do have disillusioned some people, deflated some, destroyed finally the myth of invulnerability that surrounded bin laden. there is a whole mythology around him, that he fought the russians and stood tall as the bullets whizzed past him, cornered by the americans at tora bora -- >> i believe -- believe i have seen picture of the dead che guevera and just as on the west bank -- east jerusalem a couple weeks ago, and there's pictures of him in stores, kids still have are t-shirts, che guevera -- more popular on the left than -- >> but nobody believe he is still alive. >> i thought you were getting serious here. you think that, what, a picture of him will prove he is dead? >> i think there are jihadists

and would-be jihadists out there who buy into the myth there is something divinely inspired or protected about osama bin laden. >> gene robinson, pulitzer prize-winning laureate of our show, this is the first tiff we have had and i think it is a serious tiff. joan, i rely on to you take the right side of this, meaning the left side, your thoughts? >> i don't know if it's left to or right. >> i'm not sure if it's left or right. >> i'm aghast to be on a different side from my friend, gene, not sure it happened before either. >> you think so. >> i really think that the president made the right decision here for a lot of reason. one of them is as you said, chris, i really do believe that we would be sort of printing up a ready-made protest sign. i think -- i think -- gene is making an interesting point. osama bin laden had an iconic role among his followers. that face is so well known. but that's exactly why i think a photo of him bloodied -- they are supposed to be quite

gruesome -- i don't think they discourage people, think it would create a taste for vengeance. there are going to be people who feel that way anyway, but i really think the iconic imagery of bin laden bloody and destroyed by the united states would really be a recruiting tool for our enemies. >> one second. what about the videos that are going to be made of this, the videos and the music and the sick stuff and the manipulation of his face, and all kinds of kaleidoscopic, hallucinogenic of his image when it goes viral. every crazy lunatic in a basement right now with access to some computerware will play this game and a million people offended by it every time one of these goes out? >> of course. >> the government has -- not we the government of the united states did this act, took this picture it is in their custody, is their responsibility to do the right thing with it, it is not a we thing it is their decision, the government has to make the right decision here it is not a poll question. >> well, first of all, the default position ought to be release and you ought to have a good reason not to release. i understand, and

this is the first time joan and i disagreed. >> okay, by the way -- >> but i do -- but i do think the default position here should have been release and let you unless you have a compelling reason not to i think the reason not to, which is a good one, not to inflame the crazies, i think it is mitigated, if not canceled by the destruction, the final destruction of the bin laden. >> we don't put pictures of dead people on the front pages of newspapers for a reason. let's take a look. president obama announced the decision in a taped interview with cbs news white house press secretary jay carney actually put it out -- put out the president's remarks. let's hear it. >> it is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating is around as an incitement to additional violence or as a propaganda tool. that's not who we are. we don't trot out this stuff as trophies. >> well, just to make the point and find you in the unusual position of

agreeing with somebody you are not with, sarah palin so perfect -- >> come on, chris, not fair. not fair. >> she tweeted this, this was made for tweet. show photo as warning to others seeking america's destruction. no pussyfooting around. no politicking, no drama. it's part of the mission. what's part of the mission? what is this mission that she is on? she wants to keep this war of terror going? they love this fight. let's keep it going. your thoughts, joan? >> and in what world does she get to tell us it is part of the mission? is she in the military? is she a navy s.e.a.l.? i mean, she -- be she quit her job she quit her official job, she has no day job and she is defining what the mission is? and pussyfooting? who is pussyfooting? navy s.e.a.l.s pussyfooting? the president? i don't know. but i'm not going to tie gene to sarah palin. >> thank you. >> he did it himself. >> no, no, no, no, no, no. >> let's go through the hall of film and the hall of shame here, from our point of view. here is the people and unusual list, a very eclectic group you have joined here, i should say a

motley crew. the ones that want a release and everybody should pay attention, you all have your favorites in the end. villain, i won't name them tonight. leon panetta, usually my favorite, saxby chambliss, no comment. carl levin, usually a favorite of mine. lindsey graham, yes, too, even though i disagreed with him. sarah palin, talking balloon head here, peter king, getting back on the strange side you can wants to release it going along with the president not releasing it. here are the guy, call these the grownups don't want to release it joan, we are in the grownup list, ready? >> finally. >> john mccain, mike roger, harry reid, robert gates, hillary clinton, steny hoyer and here is a real grownup, dianne feinstein it, john kerry and scott brown, who probably will get re-elected because he keeps doing normal things like this. supporting the president, boehner and rubio. gene, for the defense? >> well, i don't know what to say. you're having associated me with sarah palin. >> you did it.

>> but let me make another serious point that i don't think ms. palin made, which is that those photos, like it or not, are an historic document. this is an historic moment. this is a man who not for better or worse, for worse, has had more influence over events in this young century than any human being i can think of. his demise, well deserved, is a historic moment and i think it's an historic document. i would -- >> let ask you this. i would err on the side. >> you are a great journalist, you are looking that the right to know thing. let's look at lawmakers who weighed in. let's look at a collage, a montage, i guess it's called, of opinion here, these last few days. >> i personally think it's morbid and i'm not one that is going to be yelling to make the photo public. >> in my opinion, there's no -- there's no end served by releasing a picture of someone who has been killed.

>> i don't think that the timing is such that something incendiary is the right thing to do. >> my initial opinion is that it's not necessary to do so. i think there's ample proof that this was osama bin laden. >> we want to prove to the world we were successful. release the photos. >> this is a strange one. here is cia director leon panetta yesterday, saying the release of the photos was inevitable. let's watch. >> i don't think there was any question that ultimately a photograph would be presented to public, but the bottom line is that, you know, we got bin laden and i think we have to reveal to the rest of the world the fact that we were able to get him and kill him. >> what do you think, joan, about the families? we are going to know a lot more about them tomorrow when the

president goes up there be getting a lot of comment on television this program here, 9/11 families. do they need to see these pictures? >> you know, i would feel differently if people were -- if they privately wanted to see them, you know, it is the president's call but i could see a reason for doing that and honestly it is not an easy decision for me, i'm a journalist so i have a little bit of the right to know and when gene talks about history this is history but history means that they can come out in due time. right now, given the fact that we are perceived, rightly or wrongly, as bullies in the muslim world, i think that the president's comments about not using it as a trophy, not seem to be waving it in people's face like some kind of flag, i think that's the respectful decision to make. i can understand the other side. >> we will be back. i'm going to talk later in the program about the way in which we got this guy. i don't think we gave him five seconds, but as they said in the paper today, if he even nodded, we were going to shoot him. rules of engagement broad as hell, rough as hell but i think we made a point of burying him properly according to the religion he grew up with, out of the billion people out there, not respect him personally but his background and his people

if you will, broadly defined. i think that was such care burying him with the white shroud, sea, in 24 hours to do that with such care and then to put him out in this viral universe in the form of digital information with that image out there i think will have a different kind of desecration going on. i think we will pay for it if we do it anyway that is my view, gene. i have to say i respect you, i don't like your views. anyway -- just kidding, of course i do as a journalist, i can understand the right to report. anyway, the default position, as we say at the "washington post," to release the information. i heard it tonight. thank you, gene. and thank you, joan walsh, for being right. did the torture of key suspects give us key information that led to bin laden? that is the debate. there are a lot of debates tonight. the bush crowd who supported waterboarding, says they have been proven right. facts work. well, we will seem the fact its of the case got other way. according to the "new york times" according to others according to our own mike isikoff, waterboarding did not do it. you are watching "hardball," only on msnbc.

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president obama invited former president george w. bush to join him tomorrow at ground zero in new york. president bush declined. the current president will lay a wreath at the ground zero memorial and pay tribute to the nearly 3,000 people who lost their lives in the 9/11 attacks. he will also meet with family members of the people who were killed and also the great first responders of that great performance that day. bush is planning to attend the ten-year anniversary ceremony at ground zero this september, so he be up there at the end of the summer. we will be right back. it roared to life out here. and proved itself here, here, and here. and it's now delivering best-in-class towing, here. and unsurpassed torque, here. the ram 5 year 100,000 mile warranty covers you everywhere. ram.

the killing of bin laden has unleashed a fierce debate in this country over whether torture actually worked in extracting the necessary intel that led us to his compound. some republicans and bush officials are claiming vindication for the torture methods.

>> so for those who say that waterboarding doesn't work to say that it should be stopped and never used again, we got vital information which directly led us to bin laden. it was during the interrogation of khalid shaikh mohammed through water boarding that this of liquid shakhalid sheikh moha through waterboarding that this information was >> but others dismiss the idea that bin laden's whereabouts could be traced took torture. >> to the best of our knowledge, based on a look, none of it came as a result of harsh interrogation practices. >> so which is it? democratic senator jack reed of rhode island is a member of the armed services committee. thank you, senator reed, for joining us. >> thank you, chris. >> what is your take on this? did torture work did we need it or what? >> torture is not only illegal, but it leads to inaccurate information. if you talk to professionals, the men and women who are trained interrogators they can understand it takes a long process. it takes an understanding of the psychological sort of strengths and weaknesses not gained by torture but gained by discussion, observation. it takes a long time it and then that information has to be corroborated it has to be checked against other

information. so, no torture is not the magic silver bullet f it was, then why did it take us ten years or many, many years after the water boarding of these individuals to find bin laden? >> what about the allegations we are hearing about the rough interrogations, most of us call torture of khatani -- ksm and his replacement in al qaeda, led us to this fella this courier who had the nom de guerre of code name of al kuwaiti, was that all part of tracking him to peshawar and the compound? >> you can ask the other question also, if other techniques, nonsophisticated techniques, torture had been used, would we have got the same nickname, two,

probably you gotten more information? the interrogation of the lead that led us to zarqawi, who we tubed out with a smart bomb, we were able to lead him to a source that not only got a nickname, this was a complex process, but i don't think anybody has made a credible case that there was such good, clear unequivocal information from waterboarding that led us directly to bin laden. it in fact it took years and years and years of intense work to get to bin laden. >> look what the cia director leon panetta had to say about this question, the usefulness of torture. let's listen. >> we had a multiple series of sources that provided information with regards to this situation. clearly some of it came from detainees in the interrogation of detainees, but we also had

information from other sources as well. they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of the detainees, but i'm also saying the debate about whether we would have gotten the same information from other approaches as well will always be an open questions. >> here is what jose $who rant cia's counterterrorism center was the lead information that eventually led to the location of bin laden's compound and led to the operation for his death. do you think he is credible or not? he was part of the problem back then that we all know about. >> well, he has great insights because he was there, but i think, again, with other professionals who dealt with interrogation would say that

that's a source, but it's not the best source and, in fact, because of the legal complications, it's something that not only doesn't give us valuable -- vital information sometimes but it also leads us to intense criticism. frankly, i think looking back over these years and i think this should be a very thorough analysis, as leon suggests, of what contributed to our ultimate success, but looking back on it, it was putting together lots of different pieces of information the interrogations that are permissible under law, the -- >> right. >> electronic surveillance, the overhead surveillance, all these pieces led one toward the other. >> thank you very much, senator jack reed of rhode island. thanks for coming on "hardball." cliff may is president of the foundation for defensive democracies. cliff, thank you for coming on.

this is murky. i'm getting almost like a rorschach test, depending who you ask, you get different responses. john mccain, of course, who was a prisoner all those years in vietnam at the hanoi hilton, of course, was tortured many of those years, doesn't like torture. dianne feinstein is chair of the intelligence committee on the senate side and she doesn't like it. the bush people, as a group, say it works. i'm not for it. it looks like it is murky. your view? >> i'm somebody who is against torture but i don't think all coercive, harsh, stressful interrogation procedures are necessarily torture. i think what we know in this instance, or at least the evident is pretty strong is that harsh interrogation methods, particularly of khalid sheikh mohammed, and abu farah al libbi, gave the first information that led to the trail that led to bin laden. >> explain that, please. the nom de guerre. how did that help? they didn't know who he was. >> they had a nom de guerre and

started with that, and then they had this is critical, a warrantless wiretapping of a phone call and they made a connection and eventually figured out who this courier was who was going to see osama bin laden in pakistan. once they had his nom de guerre, had his fake name this co-trace who he was, where he was going. >> you just jumped over the fence with me, cliff. you jumped over the fence. how did we get knowing his nickname, his code name to his nom de guerre? to who he was? how did they find out who he was? >> that's where you get into the warrantless wiretap, the name was used, they checked the phone records and found that they believe they had now had the actual courier. they had a phone number and they had a name and they had somebody they could follow. here is the thing, chris, you can be against waterboarding, you can be against torture, you can be against other coercive

techniques such as sleep deprivation if you want to if you look at the evidence, and you and i would sit down a couple of people and look at it hard, tough say that the hard, you'd have to say that the killing of bin laden began with harsh interrogations, particularly of two high value individuals, khalid shaikh khalid sheikh mohammed, and abu farah al libbi. that is very clear. but you say it could have done it another way, maybe, but wasn't done another way in this particular instance. >> fair enough. i don't know where i stand -- i don't like waterboarding, i tell you who does bush well, some people do, but the freezing of the guy the freezing of him to the point where he is in the hospital a couple of times, i don't think geneva would accept that, do you do you think that is consistent with the geneva conventions, freezing somebody to the point where they go to the hospital a couple of time? >> here is what i think, chris and i think you may agree with me, what you should have is strict sets of procedures you can use if you need to in high-value case, some cases, on only the president should be able to sign off and say, o.,

you can do this. >> no matter what always. >> i love the idea that the president has to do it, he is commander in chief and also defend us ultimately, the trouble is trying to get these guys put their signature on a torture order. anyway, thank you. >> when you have khalid sheikh mohammed, you may want to consider it. he was somebody special. >> might be easier to get that order from a republican than a democratic president. just guessing but maybe, after watching this week, i'm not sure that the president obama isn't as cold-blooded as anybody. let's go on. >> khalid sheikh mohammed may have been waterboarded, i don't think that was unjust. osama bin laden was killed. i don't think that was unjust. i'm not sure you disagree with me on that. >> thanks, cliff, may, for coming on. we had a poll yesterday showing more republicans say former president bush deer is was more credit for getting bin laden than bin laden does that's republicans saying give more credit to the former president but no matter how hard the right tries they are not going to take this one away, obviously, from the current president. that is ahead. you are watching "hardball," only on msnbc. we're america's natural gas.

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the united states, over many years and two presidencies, pieced together the information of how to get to osama bin laden. obviously, information gleaned in that effort by our intelligence people contributed to this. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was former secretary of state condoleezza rice, tuesday, of course, speaking on the today show she is being diplomatic, of course. other bush administration alumnae are not. why is credit for killing bin laden becoming so partisan so quickly? we are joined by msnbc political analyst jonathan alter and talking point memos -- talking points memo josh marshall. gentlemen, thank you much for joining us. let me show you a poll which is kind of fascinating you a "washington post"/pew poll just out yesterday. it shows that 61% of republicans

give the president credit for what happened the other day in catching -- killing -- rather killing bin laden and 81% of those same people gave the credit to president bush. now, i think we all know, jon, that this country has got more polarized than you can remember it but isn't it interesting, you are looking at the same thing, really? you are looking at what looks to be very, very competent work by the cia under leon panetta's instructions, by the president overall, command and control of the situation, a deliberate decision to go this way rather than going with a predator a lot of decisions made over a course of almost a year and how do you not give the lion's share of all those decisions which were made by this president, to someone else who wasn't there making these decisions? your thoughts? >> a lot of these things are the result of actions by, you know, more than one administration. people tried to say, you know, ronald reagan won the cold war and it was something that democratic and republican president s over many years contributed to. so, it is true that the bush administration contributed in

some measure. starting in 2005, they did begin to refocus and chase bin laden, but before that, and this is critical and been completely missed in most of the commentary, they let him get away at tora bora. so, for don rumsfeld to be talking on the subject at all is really -- take a lot of nerve. he and tommy franks refused pleas to provide more military force at tora bora. if they had done so we would have nailed osama bin laden in >> 2002. so, it's rich now for them to be trying to claim credit for this. >> did want to suffer too many casualties going through the mountains there? that's what i thought, right? >> right. >> wait a minute, we won't close the back door on the guy and he gets away. my larger complaint we get to josh, my larger complaint they went wrong way like on a football field, run wag to get a touchdown, catch bin laden, wait a minute, run the other goal post, they run the other way, and they go to war in

iraq, nothing do with this guy. thousands and thousands of people, waste years and years, nothing to do with what happened this week. did you see we did this thing? no, you didn't, you went to the other goal post, went the other direction. you thought getting saddam hussein was the name of the game. your point, josh? >> there was what happened to in tora bora, the large refocusing of attention on iraq back the end of -- back the end of 2001, but i think the big picture here is that these questions about credit and is this really george w. bush's victory or whatever, these are the kind of things that appeal to already committed political partisans. i think the big political picture here is that there are really not -- nothing anybody is going to be able to say to take the credit away from barack obama over this. that doesn't mean people won't try, that doesn't mean a lot of ask republicans won't continue to

say it's george w. bush, but what it really comes down to politically, in a sense, george w. bush's credit is irrelevant in a political context today. he is no longer on the ballot. i think what this really comes down to is going into 2012, republicans have decided that they were going to run against this caricature of president obama, as someone who is bakley vacillating, hesitant, someone who doesn't really understand the dangers that face the united states and the world and that was -- that was a horse they were going to ride. and this incident, this victory for the u.s. that president obama made the key calls on is just a very straightforward and i think for most voters who aren't totally committed to the other party, a pretty convincing argument that you say, look at how president obama dealt with this situation. >> gentlemen, just to show the caricature, let me show the caricature. the cartoon version.

here is the rush limbaugh today. let's listen to rushbo. >> gutsy on sunday, but monday, it was really gutsy and yesterday was profoundly gutsy and today, it was unbelievably, incomprehensibly gutsy. but isn't that a bit of a stretch, especially in view of the fact -- look at it this way, if it ever got out that obama had passed on the chance at capturing or killing bin laden, obama's political career is over. >> you know, i don't even know what that is except bitterness. walrus under water talking what is he actually saying? i'm ticked off this guy did something great that's really what rush is saying, isn't it, jon in >> even on the first day he wouldn't give obama any credit and delivered this satirical rant against him. the guy has no class or graciousness, not a shred of it.

into the this thank is a big surprise, but proof of it. something that happened earlier, cliff may said, as if it was an objective fact that these harsh interrogation techniques led to this, that has not been established at all. that is very much in dispute and actually, the best reporting suggests that it was only when ksm and other high-value detainees refused to say they had even heard of this courier that they got suspicious. so there was was nothing that was connected to these detainees. >> okay. got to go. >> finally on the large point, chris, this is really important. if they want to take credit away from obama for this, then they have to also give credit to bush for the economy. in other words, it's what happens on your watch. >> i know. >> so if obama is going to take blame for the economy -- >> people switch the scorecards. thank you. i want to say that our top investigative reporter here at msnbc and nbc, actually msnbc is

mike isikoff said waterboarding had no role in the finding and killing of bin laden. anyway, thank you, jonathan alter and thank you, josh marshall isikoff is the best in the business. up next, the commander in chief, the republican argument that president obama isn't tough or decisive is out window. so what does that mean for the 2012 election? you are watching "hardball," only on msnbc. i'm hampton pearson with ag. i've been looking at the numbers, and i think our campus is spending too much money on printing. i'd like to put you in charge of cutting costs. calm down. i know that it is not your job. what i'm saying... excuse me? alright, fine. no, you don't have to do it. ok? [ male announcer ] notre dame knows it's better for xerox to control its printing costs. so they can focus on winning on and off the field. [ manager ] are you sure i can't talk -- ok, no, i get it. [ male announcer ] with xerox, you're ready for real business.

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i'm veronica de la cruz. the fbi shot and killed a man in an all-out fire fight in oklahoma. he was wanted for questioning in the pipe bombing of a florida mosque in 2010. the house has approved a gop bill making a band on funding abortion permanent. it also cuts taxes for some.

a new lawsuit accuses tech giants of conspiring to keep employee wages low through anti-poaching agreements. and a new transistor that says it will make computer chips faster, more reliable and cheaper to build. hamas and fatah have recognized after a bier four-year split. and jackie cooper, who was nominated for an oscar at age 9, has died in beverly hills. he was 88 years old. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball" this past week has cemented the president's commander in chief capabilities most people think and they were in question during his campaign for the presidency. does this help him? does this help him gear up for

2012? the bump could fade by next november in the polls but what about the achievement? steve mcmahon is a democratic strategist and todd harris is a republican strategist. gentlemen, i want you to watch something from the golden oldies if in february 2008, not a million years ago, during the democratic primaries for president. senator clinton ran an attack ad against president obama, questioning whether he knew the military and world leaders as well as she did. let's listen. >> it's 3 a.m. and your children are safe and asleep. but there's a phone in the white house and it's ringing. something's happening in the world. your vote will decide who answers that call, whether it's someone who already knows the world's leaders, knows the military, someone tested and ready to lead in a dangerous world. it's 3 a.m. and your children are safe asleep. who do you want answering the phone? >> well, it ended up, i think, with hillary clinton answering the phone, what do you make of that, mr. todd harris, mr. republican?

>> obviously it didn't work during the campaign but i think in terms of where we are with right now, first of all, republicans would be smart to say, you know what, this was a great victory for the country, the military, our intelligence service and yes, for president obama. this whole debate about whether he should be getting credit or who the credit goes to, that doesn't -- certainly doesn't help republicans. we ought to acknowledge that this was a great victory and -- >> why aren't your people doing that? >> i think most of them are. the overwhelming -- >> the cheney crowd is jumping up and down trying to get attention here. torture, torture, torture, i mean, they are just loving. this rummy is out there why are they all out there trying to get a piece of this with the torture angle? >> for the same reason that everyone on the left is trying to say that all the intelligence the bush administration was able to gather, that the obama administration was able to build on that none of that actually mattered. i think that that was great achievement, plenty of credit to go around. president bush deserves credit for the foundation that was laid. president obama deserves credit for executing. >> credit for the economic foundation you laid for barack obama? great depression?

>> the democrats have certainly laid it on us. >> it was there, wasn't it? >> so was all the intelligence you can't cherry pick what you're going to pick and what you're not from the previous administration. >> there's one simple fact that exists today that everybody knows, which is this president authorized a mission, it was a dangerous mission and it was a risky mission, and he did exactly what he was going to do, which is what he said he was going to do in the campaign, he was attacked for that, too, he said if we have actionable intelligence that suggests we can get osama bin laden, i'll go into pakistan if that's what it takes to get him had this president was attacked for that during the campaign, he was called naive and he put the cia on, his first day in office, leon panetta tracked him, found him and went in and got him. this president deserves credit, this president gets credit from the american people. >> if the mission had been abolished, something horrible happened, missed down, helicopters couldn't get to out of there, would you guys be taking half the credit? would you? >> no. >> the reason why we knew where to go is -- look, you guys can pretend that everything that happened during --

>> i asked you a simple question if this mission on sunday that failed, would you take half the credit for it? >> look, the guy who pulls the trigger on the mission ultimately is going to get the lion's share -- wait. no. >> i just won the argument with you, then. >> you are saying why is it that everyone on the right is politicizing this and you are sitting hearing politicizing it. >> you are trying to get half the credit for something you didn't do. >> okay. so not a single shred of intelligence that was gathered under the entire bush administration was put to any use at all? >> no, look, we are going to find out whether the rubber hose stuff worked or not. we'll find out. >> i'm not talking about waterboarding, i'm talking about the foundation of intelligence laid during the bush administration. you are either going to argue -- you're politicizing this. >> the whole thing that obama was in a cave somewhere? >> this half-full or half-empty this glass, give you a name. here are the people who are going to be in your debate this week, thursday night on another network. tim pawlenty, t-paw, has said he will be taking part.

then you have, let's see, rick santorum, you have ron paul who will pull out at the first filing deadline in texas, herman kane, the big fella, the godfather pizza guy, and former governor of new mexico, gary johnson is this the replacement season for the republican party? >> there are a lot or -- >> the apprentice is what it names. >> names not on that list and why they are choosing not to go i'm not really sure. i think debate is probably a great opportunity for all of our candidates to -- >> is this a bad year, a rebuilding year for the republican party? everybody is redshirted for the next time, or what? >> yes, to the same degree that it was a bad year in '91 for democrats when president bush, the first one, was at 91% approval rating after the first gulf war and everyone thought that he was unbeatable. >> so who is your bill clinton this time? >> well, i don't know. >> who are you -- of that crowd, todd, who are you with, or are you with governor romer, they wouldn't let governor romer, the former governor of louisiana into the debate, they were saving this debate for the

serious candidates. >> i want to get tough with you. what are the odds on the presidential election next year, 2012, odds right now? >> the odds that obama wins? >> yeah. >> 55%. >> what do you think it is? >> i have no idea. you know, look -- >> think it is 55%. >> any incumbent tough to beat. is obama nearly as tough to beat as everyone on the left thinks he is? no, he's not. >> he could lose, but he won't lose, he will run a great campaign. he'll raise a ton of money. >> i don't think you can answer that question. >> think it is roughly 50/50 right now. i think it is roughly 50/50 base old gas prices, real economic factors are going to end up being the number one issues in the country coming the next year. steve mcmahon, thank you, you're steve mcmahon, you're todd harris a great guy it is a tough show, i know. >> yes, it is. "hardball." >> if you want an easy run, go to fox and they'll warm up for you. >> the green room. >> this is what you do with what you got and you got us. anyway, thank you. up next, how long will u.s. troop remain in afghanistan? we are getting the serious business here of war. this is "hardball," only on msnbc. we learned today that osama

we learned today that osama bin laden had a 00 euros on him when he was killed, i guess that's about $700 or mo, and two phone numbers sewn into his clothes which official says all those things suggest he was ready to flee that compound at a moment's notice, just run out the door, i guess. didn't get to do it obviously. we got him. we will be right back. [ male announcer ] a moment that starts off ordinary can become romantic just like that. a spark might come from -- a touch, a glance --

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congresswoman loretta sanchez from california is on the armed services committee. what does the death of bin laden mean to the front torque the war in afghanistan to you? >> i think the killing of bill laden marks a significant beginning to the end of this war. you couldn't win this war with bin laden still alive. by taking him out, by killing him, we can now talk about how we end this operation in this war. not to say that the terror threat's not alive and well. it certainly is. we have to be very mindful and vigilant about that. with respect to afghanistan, i think there's a timetable already in place that general petraeus has set forth to begin the withdrawal in july. and to begin a transition of power to the afghan people who ultimately will have to win this. >> congresswoman sanchez, do you think we should get out of afghanistan now? >> absolutely. i've been one of the advocates saying what the heck are we doing there now. getting osama bin laden was our key to us being able to pull

out, as my colleague has said. i think the way in which we got him, points to the future wars for the united states. this is the type of thing we need to be investing in. it really speaks to why do we have 100 or 120,000 conventional troops now in afghanistan? it really is time to think about how we get out of there, and how we allow the afghan people to decide their future. >> we're fighting the taliban over there, right? do we think we can exterminate or eliminate the taliban as a political force in that country? >> i don't think so 100%. they did provide safe haven to al qaeda. they still do. i think one of the goals is how do we create security and stablity so that the afghan people can take over their nation? i agree with my colleague -- >> you're not answering my question. my question is if you're fighting the taliban, can we defeat them?

they live there. they're going to stay there. when they stay there, they'll still be there. how do we defeat them? >> by allowing the afghan people to rise up and defeat them on their road. i don't think at it be end of the day we can stay there forever. we can't put hundreds of thousands of troops there forever. oechbtly it's the afghan people who have to win this war. i agree with my colleague, that good intelligence and special forces as we start to withdraw and transition out is the way we deal with specific threats in afghanistan and pakistan. i think the successful mission really demonstrates that. >> chris, remember, we went into afghanistan because we were going after osama bin laden and al qaeda. which are very few operatives now there. they've gone to yemen and other places. the reality is we need to get out of there. the taliban we've been brokering deals with the taliban to allow them to stay put in afghanistan. the reality is we have the ability in which to pull out our conventional troops over this next year and a half.

and basically use other means in order to tell the afghan people, hey, if we see that people are going to be training here in missions against the united states or some of our allies then we are going to take what we are going to do what it takes to eliminate those types of camps. we're not going to let happen what happened before 9/11, which was that was used as a ground to hurt the american people. >> okay. okay. thank you both for joining us. >> thanks, chris. >> thank you, chris. always a pleasure. >> it's a tough vote. when we return -- the country's divided on this one, afghanistan. let me i think iffish with a question, how many people would die if the picture of osama bin laden would be released? think about it.

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let me finish tonight with a question for you, it's not a trick question, it's a deadly real one. you know, the old expression a picture is worth a thousand words? so how many lives is it worth?

should the united states government release a picture of the deceased osama bin laden? give me your personal guess now of how many people you think would die? tell me how many people would protect. this is the basis we should assume with the president's decision to keep the photo where it is in the custody of the u.s. government. i think we were impressed admiring really of how the body of bin laden was respected after his death. respecting the religion of the people from whom he came, the billion islamic people of this world. i think we did it for reasons of religious respect, but also to ensure that we did no harm to justice. fair treatment to people. we also did it not to cause more killing of the innocent like that which occurred a decade ago and has since. we didn't want to spur religious indignation, a kind of righteous

indignation that leads to violence. i don't want that photo out there it would be manipulated, played with. made into a music video. for every mind in this multibillion person possibility. we all know people died in afghanistan. what happens when people get out of their jolryes out of a dead bin laden. some people would like nothing more. some people are so reckless, so juvenile they could start a human catastrophe for the sheer fun of it. i think there's something indecent in someone wanting to see the picture of a dead person. newspapers since the begin ofg the printing press have restrained showing som pictures. it gives you something to think about. it will be infuriating for hundreds of millions. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "last word with lawrence o'donnell" starts right now.