beyond even top secret. and if you are watching this right now, i am guessing you do not have that. now it's time for "the ed show." have a great night. good evening, americans, and welcome to "the ed show." tonight from new york, we have got breaking news right off the top tonight. on the republican budget plan. this is a big victory for the democrats, and a big victory for the middle classers in america. "the washington post" reporting at this hour that senior republicans conceded wednesday that a deal is unlikely on a contentious plan to overhaul medicare. this could be viewed as the first dent in the armor for the republicans. the american people have spoken on this issue. they don't want their medicare touched. and the republicans and all these town hall meetings, i guess they are listening. also tonight, the bin laden picture debate. the president says he doesn't want to spike the football. not everyone agrees. this is "the ed show." let's get to work.

new pictures from inside the bin laden compound. but not the picture of a dead osama. >> that's not who we are. >> we're not interested in doing that. and we're also, as americans, not interested, as the president said in trotting around photographs as trophies. >> republicans keep saying torture led us to bin laden. tonight, a former cia interrogator dispels the myths. and tomorrow the president will pay his respects to the families of the fallen. and some on the right are outraged. >> he wants to take victory laps. it's obscene. >> and this is the story that has me fired up first tonight. great to have you with us this evening on "the ed show." here's the bottom line. the bottom line from the president of the united states, we don't trot this stuff out as trophies. that's it. the commander in chief has spoken. he's made the big decision based on national security interests. president obama said today that the united states government will not release the death

photos of osama bin laden. the president broke the news on a taped interview with "60 minutes" to air sunday. interviewer steve croft. they did it this afternoon. >> did you see the pictures? >> yes. >> what was your reaction when you saw them? >> it was him. >> why won't you release them? >> you know, we discussed this internally. keep in mind that we are absolutely certain this was him. we've done dna sampling and testing. and so there is no doubt that we killed osama bin laden. it is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence, as a propaganda tool.

you know, that's not who we are. >> so did the president make the right call? here he is rendering judgment that it would inflame the muslim world and really serve no purpose. the president is basically, i think, telling the american people and the rest of the world the integrity of the mission can stand on its own merits. the photo will not be released. it's gruesome. he is recognizable, no doubt, but taking the moral high ground and respecting the dead and not making a further spectacle of the anguish this country has gone through, obviously, has taken precedent. the president renders on the side of caution not to inflame the muslim world. i think a lot of americans are out there tonight saying, i don't know if this is the right thing or not. i'm conflicted by it. i'd like to see the photos. why? because i hated that s.o.b. he killed a lot of americans, and he has changed our lives when it comes to privacy. and we're going to feel the effects of this for a long time. but i keep thinking about these

rallies outside the white house and what we've seen here in new york about young people responding to this and how many folks in their 20s were, you know, what, 10, 11, 12 years old, 13 years old when this happened, and they were affected by this. they have spent the latter part of their life thinking about terrorism and osama bin laden. and maybe this would give closure to some people. but i think the president's judgment and the way he has handled all of this, he deserves the benefit of the doubt that this is the right thing to do. if you are scoring at home, this president has done a lot of good things when it comes to fighting terrorism. the surveillance has been picked up. the drone strikes have been much greater than what the bush administration did. the intel is being collected, and the big prize osama bin laden. so now the president is making another judgment call that if we show this it could inflame the rest of the world against america. taking the high ground is what this president has been all

about all along on many issues. he's tried to negotiate on a number of different fronts. i think this is a tough call. i want to see it, but i have to put selfish reasons aside and know that this is the right thing to do for the united states. now if there's going to be some controversy out there, it should stop at the water's edge when it comes to politics. but there are some out there who want to inflame the debate, so to speak. this is lindsey graham, senator from south carolina who has been on the senate armed services committee for some time. >> i know he's dead. but i do believe it is in our national security interest to prove it beyond any reasonable doubt. >> prove it? prove it? are you suggesting, senator, that maybe our military doesn't tell the truth? are you questioning the character of those s.e.a.l.s who risked their lives on this mission? that's taking it a little bit too far, isn't it?

this is mike rogers who told our lawrence o'donnell on "the last word" tonight, he talked to him and said he did see the photos. chairman rogers, you said today you agree with the president's decision not to release the pictures of osama bin laden. have you seen those pictures? >> i have. i just talked to a soldier today who served after the abu ghraib pictures came out. and their units right the day and the day subsequent were reminded that it's likely to get more dangerous. they had to double their first aid kits. they had to double their patrols, spend more time on patrols and violence had an up tick. and when you look at that and you say, what value do we have in showing this photo, it's just we don't need to add to their -- that soldier's difficulty. >> that sound bite is golden. i'll tell you why. because now the president can say to the american people and the world, we've been down this road before and mistakes were

made. it was harder on our troops. and i thought the republicans just loved the troops. i thought that the conservatives out there were always out there saying they support the troops. could it be offered up tonight that the president of the united states is supporting the troops and making their mission a little bit easier by not inflaming the rest of the world by releasing these photos as we've been down this road with abu ghraib before? once again, the smart guy, the president of the united states, i call him the smart guy. i like his academic background. he makes the right call. again. and even though there's going to be a divided country and conversation in this country about it, i think that he deserves more than the benefit of the doubt. this was the right call. get your cell phones out. i want to know what you think. tonight's question -- did the white house make the right decision by not releasing the photo? text a for yes, text b for no to 622639. always go to our new blog at

ed.msnbc.com. we'll bring you the results later on in the show. joining me tonight, a couple of congressional members. congressman adam smith of washington, ranking member on the house armed services committee. and agrees with the president. and congressman adam schiff of california, mr. schiff serves on the permanent select committee on intelligence. and he thinks the president should have released the photo. gentlemen, thanks for your time tonight. first you, congressman schiff from california. why do you thing president should have released the photos when, obviously, we know what happened when the abu ghraib photos were released and how much problem that caused. >> well, ed, thank you. i share your respect for the president. this was a very tough call. you can tell that from the fact that the outgoing defense secretary had one view and the incoming defense secretary had a different view. i came out on a different side of this from the president. for this reason. we killed osama bin laden, the man, but if there's a question about whether he's truly dead in

the view of many in the rest of the world, the myth of bin laden will live on. and i think that we took extra rinks by simply not using a predator to take out that compound because we wanted proof it was bin laden, not just for us but for the rest of the world. i'd like the rest of the world to see how bin laden was living. here he was posing as this austere person living in a cave, but, in fact, he's living in a mansion in abbottabad, pakistan. i'd like the world to see how he lived and also that he died to put an end to this myth of bin laden, someone who was beyond capture, beyond killing. i think that's important national security objective. it's not, in my view, about having a trophy or anything demeaning like that. but rather, make sure we put an end to the myth. one last point, ed, i wish the white house hadn't been so unequivocal because events may force their hand. if al qaeda releases another

video, one they've had in the kac can of bin laden giving a speech. those aren't dated. will give to this conspiracy theory he's still alive and then we're in the pofgs having analyst goes on the air and say, well, from the position of the sun we can tell this wasn't taken when it was supposed to be taken or he makes no comments about recent events. so that's what i think advancing these photographs would accomplish. >> congressman smith, congressman schiff said a lot there. why do you disagree. >> let's be clear. there is no question that osama bin laden is dead. man, myth, dead. no question. no doubt. i don't think any of us should be raising any questions, any doubts about that. i mean, we both, adam and i received briefs at different times on this. they tested this about ten different ways. dna, photographic analysis. he is dead. no question about it. no doubt. we should not allow there to be any doubt photos or no photos. the conspiracy theorists you can release whatever you want to

release. they'll still concoct those conspiracies. >> what about the national security interests of not releasing them? >> no iagree with that. i agree with that as well. i agree with what mike rogers said. you release those photos you aren't sure where it's going to go. the really big point is we can have no daylight on the issue that bin laden is dead. we have clear, conclusive evidence. i think this is far from the most important debate at this point. i think the fact that we killed him is what we should be focused on, not whether we released the photos. >> i agree with the president's decision. >> we can't control conspiracies on the other side of the world, but we can control conspiracies here in america. does the president not releasing these, you know, render more questions than answers in your opinion? >> no. i mean, no. assuming we don't have more shows like this where we just talk about it for the sake of talking about it, no, i don't think it does because the evidence has been presented overwhelm league, as you yourself said in questioning lindsey graham. for lindsey graham to come out and say we have to be sure.

we've had high ranking members of the united states military who witnessed on film him being killed. we have the navy s.e.a.l.s who have said they brought back the information, brought back the evidence. there is no doubt. there is no question. let's not raise this into more of a debate than it deserves to be. he's dead. it's over and done with. >> congressman schiff, what do you think the chances are that we're going to have to see these photos down the road to put away any other story that might crop up later on? >> well, i agree with the director of the cia. i think that's very possible, maybe even likely down the road. as i mentioned if they do release further videos of bin laden, it's only going to resurrect this. the sooner we can nip this conspiracy theory in the bud, i think the better. ultimately, it's hard to imagine these photos aren't going to be leaked. and i'd rather frankly that it was done purposefully rather than being leaked. and done on our own terms rather than response to al qaeda's action in prop gading this myth that bin laden is still alive. >> gentlemen, stay with us. i've got another subject i want

to bring forward tonight that just broke before we went on the air. i want to ask you about "the washington post" story saying that senior republicans are conceding tonight that a deal is unlikely on a contentious plan to overhaul medicare and offered to open budget talks tomorrow with the white house by focusing on areas where both parties can get agreement such as cutting farm subsidies. so this means, as i view this, as a liberal, this is a win for the democrats that medicare is going to be off the table. congressman smith, how do you view this news? >> i think you're right. i think that is helpful. the most important thing for progressives and democrats to do is to more aggressively put the revenue side of this question on the table. now i'll admit with our budget where it's at, there's no question we have a spending problem in a lot of different places. what hasn't been talked about enough in the year 2000, when we had a surplus, revenue to the federal government represented 21% of the gdp.

>> yeah. >> the last two years it's represented 15%. over a 30% drop in revenue. why aren't we talking about that? >> this is a big victory for a lot of middle classers out there. >> it is. >> medicare is off the table. and this means you'll have to go into farm country to get the farm subsidies. what about oil subsidies, adam schiff? >> to me, the greatest contrast in terms of the budget put forth by the republicans is the fact that they are unwilling to go after these tax subsidies of the richest industry making the biggest profits, but they will cut home heating oil assistance for the poor. >> yeah. >> doesn't get a much sharper c contrast than that. the republicans have to recognize now if not soon, that their proposal to make medicare into a voucher program is a nonstarter. but it does tell us very graphically what this party is all about. and it is not about looking after seniors, particularly the

most vulnerable among the seniors who are on medicaid as well as medicare. >> yeah. well, republican leader eric cantor tonight saying that they've got to find common ground. so maybe they win a bridge too far on the budget but they are not going to be going after medicare and medicaid. so it sounds to me like the people have spoken. i keep putting this graph up on this program. 80% of the american people do not want medicare and medicaid changed. so i think this is a victory for the people. and a victory for the democrats. congressman adam smith of washington and adam schiff from california, great to have both of you with us on the "ed show." >> remember to answer tonight's question. i want to know what you think. will we have more? we will have more on the president -- president obama's controversial decision not to release the death photo of osama bin laden. that's coming up later. and also, president obama wants to honor the victims of 9/11 at this national place of

honor down at ground zero. he will be here later this week. but of course, he is under attack for his decision to go to ground zero tomorrow. stay with us. what are you looking at? logistics. ben? the ups guy? no, you see ben, i see logistics. logistics? think--ben is new markets. ben is global access-- china and beyond. ben is a smarter supply chain. ben is higher margins. happier customers... everybody wins. logistics. exactly. see you guys tomorrow. it has up to 48 gigs of memory so it can hold work files, pictures, videos, music. whatever you need. and this is just the keyboard. all my stuff stays on the phone when i pull it off the lapdock. so it's a computer that's a phone. or a phone that's a computer, really, either way is correct. well, which is it, sir? you seem to be changing your story. [ male announcer ] the power of a computer. the portability of a smartphone.

at&t presents the motorola atrix™ 4g. the world's most powerful smartphone. at&t. rethink possible. rummy has been banging the drum for waterboarding over on fox. lawrence wilkerson will set him straight on that. later, he hid now the a pakistani mansion for several years. so should pakistan still get aid from the united states taxpayers? some members of congress are flat out saying no. i'll talk with congressman barney frank on that later in the program. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

welcome back to "the ed show." thanks for watching again tonight. president obama's decision not to release the osama bin laden death photo could have international implications for years to come. the muslim world has had conspiracy theorys about osama bin laden for years. many believe that bin laden's been dead for a long time. other theories are, is that he didn't even have anything to do with 9/11. the president's decision might add fuel to the conspiracy for years to come. on the other hand, a photo of a dead bin laden might also inflame a part of the world that already hates america. joining us now is steve clemm clemmons, director of founder policy program and a senior fellow at the new american foundation and former chief of staff to secretary of state colin powell's assistant colonel lawrence wilkerson. >> good to be with you, ed. >> you bet. steve why do you think the president should have released these photos? >> well, several reasons. one, osama bin laden has been

living as a phantom for the last decade. and this decision, and i understand i don't know everything that went into president obama's decision, but this allows him to continue on as a phantom. i think that's a mistake. we need to demonstrate as hard as it is that we're a transparent government. that we don't withhold -- we don't throw everything into a veil of secrecy. and i uls think, frankly, there are many both in the united states -- i remember hearing from a senior intelligence officer a few years ago. he said, steve you don't rlly believe osama bin laden is still alive, do you? but i think many people in the muslim world need to see two things. particularly immediate rat muslims need to see that osama bin laden is really gone and, secondly, they need to see out of respect to the muslim religion that we really did administer islamic rights to him as he went off to the ocean or the next world or wherever. that gesture of islamic rights is in fact in my mind more important. but i think people need closure. >> colonel wilkerson, did the

president make the right decision and also, it would seem to me that this would be part of the mission. i mean, when they got to this point, they must have known that they were going to be taking pictures of the corpse and then having to deal with whether they were going to release it or not. it seems now this is in the 11th hour of the mission. they are saying, what we are going to do with this? what are your thoughts on this? >> i hate to disagree with steve clemmons, but i do disagree, and strongly. i don't think the united states needs to be seen in any way chest thumping over this. and i think that's the way release of such photographs would be perceived. i just don't think it's the right thing to do. this was a professional operation. we need to be professional in the aftermath. in being professional in the aftermath means we move on. this is not the end all and be all. in fact, the challenges confronting america right noush it's probably at the bottom of the list. >> but it would seem to me the white house would be saying we

made this decision before the mission started. that if we got to this point, we knew exactly what we were going to do. we were not going to release photos. colonel, why wouldn't they be at that point? >> well, you are attributing a degree of competence to the white house that my having served three presidents in the last 30 years doesn't indicate exist. >> mr. clemons, as we move forward on this, what could the release of these photos do to the outside world of the united states? to our enemies? wouldn't it be a recruiting tool? >> no, i think actually the opposite is true. i think that as long as he remains shrouded in secrecy, i think that becomes a recruiting tool. i mean, this is a man that very few people believe was still around. all of a sudden, he comes back and i think there are two issues i think my friend larry wilkerson is missing. one is president obama saying itrust president obama. i'm a great fan of president obama but believe in the full faith and credit of the united

states that we're telling you the truth. and the fact is we're living through the greatest era of doubt about the united states and twhat is than ever before. i think that's part of the picture. i think that the other part of the picture is, osama bin laden was -- and his continued existence was, in fact, helping many americans, many around the world doubt american power. doubt america's ability to achieve the things it said it was going to do. it made us look impotent in the eyes of the world. we've been invading other countries, deploying hundreds of thousands of troops, spending trillions of dollars to try to deal with the bin laden problem. now he's gone. maybe we can get back to normality at this point. >> but, steve, we've been through pictures being released by the last administration. abu ghraib. that didn't do us any favors. >> no, but you are going to an extreme. part of the -- part of the concern the white house had about -- having a dead bin laden is what do you do with him? they buried him at sea so there would not be a burial site that

would become a manifestation that would animate a rally around this martyr. and i think they -- they are trying to minimize the footprint of bin laden's footprint. i think they've overdone that. there's no chance that you can get no footprint from osama bin laden's death, and i think they've minimized it by burying him at sea, making him disappear. but you can't go all the way and make it seem like only president obama and a few trusted aides have seen this man leave the earth. >> all right. the dna evidence is there. it's a call by the president. steve clemons thanks for joining us. colonel wilkerson, ides like to is does you to stick around for one more question. earlier tonight, donald rumsfeld, former defense secretary, said this to bill o'reilly on fox. here it is. >> people are equating waterboarding with torture. and i think that's a mistake. the president of the united states authorized the waterboarding. it was done to three people by the cia. not by the military. and it produced an enormous

amount of very, very valuable intelligence information. >> it just amazes me how former bush administration officials are out on the beaten path on the cables just saying it just did everything for the country. your thoughts on that. >> well, my former boss colin powell recently said that donald rumsfeld was delusional and deceptive and he could prove both points. my former boss is right. and on this issue, donald rumsfeld is more delusional than deceptive probably than any other. first of all, his last statement about hoards of intelligence is preposterous. it didn't produce hoards of intelligence. i never saw any raw intelligence pass my desk that came from such things that was actionable that really led to any circumstance at all that produced a result that was positive. secondly, donald rumsfeld only has, as knowledge, what his bureaucracy gave him. he wasn't there. he wasn't at the site.

multiple tiers of bureaucracy gave him the information he has. he made sure that that bureaucracy was sicofant. yes, men, yes, women. he made sure the people working for him told him what he wanted to hear. so one has to expect that donald rumsfeld heard what he just said. and that was that actionable intelligence was produced by these procedures. it's preposterous. let me say one last thing. as christopher hitchens said after he was actually waterboarded, this is torture. changing his view. let me waterboard donald rumsfeld and then we'll see if he says it's torture or not. >> why do you think rumsfeld is doing this? is he -- >> he's got to. he's got to cover his rear end. i mean, there are cases in foreign countries right now being worked by lawyers there. one in switzerland actually kept president george bush from visiting switzerland that will, under international auspices bring cases against cheney,

rumsfeld, fife, addington, et al. they don't dare resort to anything other than defending their positions because ultimately in the -- even within their life tms, they may be subject to litigation. i will predict that, as i've said many times before, they will not travel except perhaps to israel and saudi arabia. those will be the only two countries cheney, rumsfeld and others will travel to. >> lawrence wilkerson, colonel, we love to have you on the program. you do tell it like it is. i appreciate your time tonight. >> thanks for having me. coming up -- bin laden was hiding in plain sight. turns out he had money and phone numbers handy in case henied to make a quick getaway. what did pakistan know, and when did they know it? in the right is still trying to give credit to the bush administration for the death of osama bin laden. by tieing it to waterboarding. former cia intelligence officer will bat all of that down next. stay with us.

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thanks for being here with us tonight. another discredited figure from the bush administration is claiming that enhanced interrogation led to the death of osama bin laden. jose rodriguez was the cia's chief of counterterrorism from the years 2002 to 2005. rodriguez says that information provided by ksm and others about bin laden's courier was the lead information that eventually led to the location of bin laden's compound. so we can add this guy to the pile of bushies who were trying to give credit to the former president even though he stopped trying to catch osama bin laden. former vice president dick cheney has said enhanced interrogations was a factor. former defense secretary donald rumsfeld now says that waterboarding was critically important even though that contradicts some of his past statements. let's bring in retired cia officer glenn carle and author

of the upcoming book "the interrogator." mr. carle, good to have you with us tonight. are these people wrong when they say that torture did the trick? >> well, i think it's a shameful sequel to a sordid chapter, really in american history. i had no direct involvement in the interrogation of khalid sheikh mohammed so i can't speak directly to that, but my understanding is the information that eventually broke the case and let us find osama bin laden was obstained a year after any enhanced interrogation techniques were stopped with him and had nothing directly to do with them. so i think the answer for that narrow fact is that the current rewriting of history is wrong and that as i understand it, enhanced interrogation techniques did not play a role in that. more broadly, they don't work. putting aside the serious questions of, are they right and

are they legal. >> mr. carle, this is donald rumsfeld from earlier tonight on fox telling bill o'reilly this about how much information they got from these kind of tactics. here it is. >> people are equating waterboarding with torture. and i think that's a mistake. the president of the united states authorized the waterboarding. it was done to three people by the cia, not by the military, and it produced an enormous amount of very, very valuable intelligence information. >> mr. carle, from your research is that comment correct? >> no, i think that it's not. it's a little bit like laurence olivier playing a dentist to dustin hoffman in marathon man and drilling a hole through someone's tooth but saying no pain, no pain. it simply is wrong. if you define waterboarding not as torture when you say that, well, it's not torture because i defined it not as torture, but

it is. but the fact that it transgresses the uniform code of military justice, the convention against torture. the geneva conventions executive order 12333 for the cia. it's quite clear. >> do we get unreliable information when these tactics are used? >> it's conceivable theoretically that you will obtain some accurate information from enhanced interrogation techniques. the problems are multiple, however. once again, putting aside legal or moral issues which one must not do. it's hard enough for any interrogator to determine what statements are true and not. it's a hugely labor intensive, laborious, meticulous task under the best of circumstances. when you involve coerced information or statements made under extreme duress, it becomes exponentially more difficult to identify what's accurate or what isn't in the statements made. so it complicates the problem,

makes it far less likely to obtain information that you can identify accurately as useful even before you get to the problems of should one do it. >> draw on your experience again, mr. carle. you are a former cia officer. what's the best way to get information out of people? >> well, the cia didn't -- wasn't in the business of interrogation. we're intelligence officers. i collect intelligence. i convince people in my career to provide secret information to the united states. those are the skills in the background that i brought and we all bring to the -- are brought to the task. i found that, as i went through the process of interrogating this individual and actually learning how to do it or concluding what made sense and what didn't that the way to do it is the same way, frankly, that one is a good case officer. and that is by developing a rapport.

now perverse as the rapport will be by definition when you have an interrogator and a detainee, it's a hugely unbalanced relationship. nonetheless, it's a human relationship. and i concluded at the -- as the process went on for me, at the same place that the fbi has been from the beginning. they've been quite consistent, and i think honorably so and directly so to state that the way you interrogate someone and obtain information is by establishing a rapport and you can try to manipulate someone but you don't put them under extreme physical, mental stress. >> so this country in your opinion, was, obviously, wrong if and when it waterboarded those who were in captivity. you question the nature of its validity and just how much information we got. what else is in your book coming up that you'd like to preview? >> well, gosh, on the enhanced interrogation techniques issue, the agency was very careful to seek guidance, legal and policy, of course, from higher ups.

>> but did they want to do it? did they want to do it? did they want to waterboard? >> i can't speak for the seventh floor. they were very careful to obtain legal authorization, and then to carefully define and establish parameters of what was acceptable or not. there are two levels enhanced interrogation techniques that were defined. standard and enhanced. the standard ones are designed to play psychological stress on the person. the enhanced ones are some physical measures. i, from the get-go, my involvement, refused to have anything to do with any physical measures. i had been trained, however, that psychological measures of -- measures to psychologically dislocate someone were effective. i found in fact, that really is not the case. you create someone who is stressed, miserable and angry, but not necessarily more willing to share information.

>> glenn carle, we look forward to it. appreciate your time here on "the ed show." president obama will visit ground zero tomorrow and lay a wreath and meet with the 9/11 families. but his decision to go there is already under vicious attack. stay with us. that's next. ♪ i've seen the sunrise paint the desert. witnessed snowfall on the first day of spring. ♪ but the most beautiful thing i've ever seen was the image on a screen that helped our doctor see my wife's cancer was treatable. [ male announcer ] ge technologies help doctors detect cancer early so they can save more lives. bringing better health to more people. ♪ that weight watchers online was for guys, too. i'm like, it's not rainbows and lollipops. after i read this beer cheat sheet, i knew what the difference was between a light beer and a dark beer as far as points go. i use the grilling cheat sheet -- you drag it over onto the grill and it gives you a point value.

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our best deals of the season are happening now. learn more at johndeere.com/greentagevent. welcome back. tomorrow, president obama will visit ground zero here in new york city and lay a wreath at the site. the president will not make a

speech. new york mayor michael bloomberg will join him. former mayor rudy giuliani has been invited. former president bush was also invited, but a spokesman for the former president says mr. bush appreciated the invite but has chosen in his post-fros remain largely out of the spotlight. he continues to celebrate with all americans this important victory and the war on terror. president obama will also meet privately with family and friends of 9/11 victims. but today, some voices on the right wing are attacking the president. here's what glenn beck said about the visit to ground zero for the president. >> and he wants to take victory laps. it's obscene. and it is obscene. can you imagine taking victory laps in arlington cemetery? where i draw the line is now we're going to ground zero to the hallowed ground, to the civilian arlington cemetery and

saying, yeah, yeah, i got it done. that's grotesque. it's grotesque for any president, grotesque. >> what is grotesque, glenn beck, is your attitude and lack of respect for the families. do the families matter? do the americans who were emotionally affected and hurt by 9/11, what happened on that day, do they matter anymore at all? have we become that callous in the media that this is an opportunity to pick on the president and make it a political issue? the president of the united states, i believe, is doing this out of respect and dignity and honoring those who went into those towers to save american lives. it is unfortunate that glenn beck has a microphone in front of him the way he does because he grossly misuses it every single day. he has no respect.

he has no decency. how many times have we interviewed people this week where they've said this is about closure. this is what they needed to see. and for the president to come to new york and respect these americans is what presidents do. the honorable thing and the right thing to do. leon panetta says either there were involved or incompetent. what do pakistan know? what did they know about osama bin laden and his whereabouts. and additional breaking news on what we discussed at the top of the show. a spokesman for eric cantor says that what "the washington post" reports on republicans backing down on medicare, those cuts, he says they are wrong. congressman barney frank will join us to sort it out. that's all next. [ male announcer ] this is charlie whose morning flight

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and finally tonight, as it turns out, he lived quietly in a three-story house in a resort town. right down the street from a military academy, not far from the capital city and it's kind of hard to believe, for many americans to see this story and see how the pakistani government didn't know anything about it, about bin laden's whereabouts. bin laden wasn't armed when the navy s.e.a.l.s stormed into his compound. leon panetta told members of congress that bin laden had cash and two telephone numbers sewn into his clothes. a sign he was ready to run at a moment's notice. so why wasn't he more closely

guarded? according to a source who attended the panetta briefing, bin laden believed his network actually was strong enough that he'd get a heads-up if trouble was coming. this sure seems to explain the u.s. decision not to alert the pakistanis about their plans for a raid to get him as panetta explained previously. any effort to work with the pakistanis could jeopardize the mission. for its part, pakistan says it helped the united states mission by providing intelligence. so what should the united states do with our supposed ally? we give billions of dollars in aid each year to this country. some members of congress are calling the scale back the funds to pakistan or cut it off entirely. which road do we take? joining me is congressman barney frank. democrat of massachusetts. good to have you with us tonight. >> thank you. >> has this strained our relations immensely with pakistan? where are we right now in your opinion? >> well, there's a bit of a dilemma, but i think -- and you

can't just talk of pakistan. you have to look at afghanistan. let's begin with this question that's now dominating washington which is our deficit. we are now spending $150 billion a year-plus in afghanistan and iraq. so billions more for pakistan and it's clear that's where deficit reduction can begin at no serious damage to the quality of life or anything else for the u.s. now that osama bin laden is dead, and that is a very good thing for the world because he was a great source of evil, the arguments for staying in afghanistan dramatically diminish. and the pakistan issue is connected here. what we are trying to do in afghanistan, beyond getting osama bin laden, cannot be done. it is now clear that pakistan, it had been fairly clear is going to be a support sufficiently to elements of those we are fighting so that fighting in afghanistan at the

moment isn't enough. and we really can't undertake fighting in afghanistan but the good news is that we don't have to. if we would cut back the $160 billion or so that the combined iraq, afghanistan, pakistan efforts are costing us, and took a small percentage of that and use it to beef up our protections here at home, we'd be safer. >> so congressman, would you take the position that we need to continue to give aid to pakistan no matter how this raid went down? >> no, not at all. and i think there are other reason yes pakistan ought to be cut back. i think what we need to do is not cut them off exactly but stop acting like they are doing us a favor. that's a big problem with american foreign policy. through all the presidents. we acts as if china is doing us a favor by having this enormous trade surplus. that pakistan and afghanistan are doing us favors. we're almost like tom sawyer getting people to paint the fence, asking the iraqis to let us stay in iraq another year or two so that we can police them.

what we need is to say, look, we are prepared to cooperate with you but only if it's an even kind of cooperation. i'd say to the pakistanis, there are things we need you to do. either you do them or we're out of here. >> congressman, i have to switch gears on you. eric cantor's office is now pushing back on "the washington post" headline that we reported earlier in this show. "the washington post" was reporting that the gop was backing off their plan to gut medicare in the budget talks. cantor's spokesman says in response, quoting to us our negotiating position is the ryan budget. what's your response to this? is medicare safe? >> well, listen carefully to what he said. our negotiating position is the ryan budget. that's very different from we are for the ryan budget. our negotiating position means that's what we start with and that's what we're ready to give away. look. they have a terrible dilemma. they have a political dilemma because after demagoguing inaccurately that we were cutting medicare when we were extending health benefits to

many americans who don't now have it they were the ones seriously cutting medicare. it's not just a political problem. it's an illogical one. the ryan budget says if your 55 or old, you'll note medicare. you aren't 55 yet you'll never get medicare. you'll get much less. if it's a good program, why do we deny it to people 52 years old who worked to put money into it. it's both a political and intellectual problem. and i think -- i'm interested that cantor said that. that's their negotiating position. a negotiating position is what you back away from, not what you firmly hold to. >> in and "the wall street journal" is reporting that there's a deal in the works on medicare. are you aware of any deal that's in the works at this hour? >> no, and i'm not prepared to make a deal on medicare. let me go back to what i said before. before i start cutting medicare and i'm reluctant to do that and i'd have to be shown how it can

be done. we need to scale back america's overstretched worldwide military commitments before we start talking about cutting medical care here at home. >> but 80% of the american people do not want medicare and medicaid touched. it would seem to me that that's a pretty strong position for the democrats to say we're not going here. what do you think? >> absolutely. that's what we have been saying so far. understand that that 20% you were talking about becomes relevant because they dominate republican primaries. we have a party now in which the fear of losing to someone's delusional in a primary is what dominates. >> kongman, great to have you with us. massachusetts representative barney frank here on "the ed show." tonight in our survey, i asked you, did the white house make the right decision by not releasing the photo? 90% of you said yes. 10% of you said no. that's the ed show. i'm ed schultz. see you back here tomorrow