talking about congressman anthony weiner's admission and refusal to resign. a somewhat steamy afternoon here in new york city, i'm dylan ratigan. wiener gate, the symptom after problem in this country. a constant game of smoke and mirrors. politically and personally. but now, the internet means that the truth is only a click away. it's that bigger issue to which we are devoting this entire hour, now of course we will get into the politics of the whys of likely ethics investigation, whether anthony wiener can survive the scandal and all of the rest of it. but we will also devote the vast majority of our resources today to the forces bringing these sorts of things to light, not just lewd photos, all information. the hypocrisy of mankind, their duplicity and ease with which it can be observed. money and politics.

corrupt politicians. you understand. how technology in the 21st century redefined what it means to be a sleeze bag, how easy it is and how easy it is to get caught. and whether we as a group, as a generation of people on this earth, faced with the new age of the internet and instantaneous change, are going to be capable of accepting the truth of human behavior, the trung of our government process, the truth of relationships between businesses and customers and our government and whether we can resolve that truth to release ourselves it a freer state or whether it will destroy us. i do, however, want to begin with the canary in the coal mine if you will, the latest canary be anthony weiner. think of its survivor, d.c. style. the panel by the way, is here for the entire hour. susan, karen and jimmy.

we will get to them later later. the the political line, governor, is whether this guy stays in office. do have you a view on that? >> i have mixed feelings. anthony weiner was and i guess still is one of the most forceful and effective advocates for the progressive position. he fought hard for underprivileged people. for people facing challenges in life, for our most vulnerable citizens. i would like to see him survive. there are not many voices, as you know, that stand up and say this is wrong. we have to stand up and protect these people. it is the american way. on the other hand, this has become a political disstraks. i heard michael this morning say it is a political distraction to democrats at a time when things are going well because of the back fire of the ryan medicare

plan. because of the recent special election. things have been moving in the democrats direction allowing them to even dream about taking back the house in 2012. but this is a dramatic distraction. so i've got mixed feelings. part of me hopes that he will survive because he, as i said, is that important voice. and part of me thinks he will be weighed down by being a distraction to the very cause that he cares about. >> michael, how relevant is what the democratic party does relative to anthony weaner to his survival? in other words if they back pedal as they appear to be, is he completely doomed? >> i believe he is. and i think it is smart politics for them to do that. if you look at how speaker boehner handled christopher lee, mr. lee resigned before we knew what it was he was resigning for. it was one of the situations where the leadership stepped in and said, we will not have this happen on our watch.

democrats in the first instance, at least 1st of june, standing with representative wiener. today sort of half-hartedly standing with him. i think to the governor's point with you individuals like congressman weiner on the right and left who do contribute politically in terms of policy. but their personal lives ten to get in the way and trip them up. when that happens the political decision has to be made to cut your losses and move forward particularly if you think your position is the governor's stated, to take those seats in next year's elections pch bit way, governor, that is still a dream. there is a whole lot of turf that will get covered between now and next year. there may be more weinors out there. >> have you used that one yet? >> no, the first time. >> well played. >> governor, what do you see as the greatest -- what is most at risk for the democratic agenda by virtue of any distraction,

whether it is anthony weiner or anything else that could sidebar them? >> i think the momentum is clearly on our side. i think people are understanding. when it comes to protecting ordinary folks and not just the poor but middle class, that what the democrats stand for is something that they believe in. that we have to have shared sacrifice in this country. and everyone has to sacrifice including big business, including richest americans. the fact that warren buffett's secretary pays decidedly higher percentage of her income in taxes than warren buffett does is plain wrong. can i say one other thing, dylan? >> sure. >> i think michael's right, but it is something i hear with a little bit of sadness. we are all flawed. virtually every human being on this earth is flawed. what anthony weiner did as far as up to now didn't hurt anybody other than himself or neighbor his good wife absolutely spectacular person.

the pain administer said self inflicted and concern we are all flawed. isn't it time to say, look, isn't it time it say, that the internet i guess is going to make our flaws more open and people should judge whether that that's a flaw that disqualifies him from office? >> that's the biggest conversation. after we are done with this, the survival anthony weiner, this hour is dedicated to all of our -- all of us being forced to reconcile 150,000 years of human duplicity with about ten years of this universe of everything being known and noble and particularly for those in the spotlight. whether you are a politician or a media figure. we are going to have to come up with a resolution to these issues, michael. >> congressman lee, michael, i don't think he should resign either. >> i think he should. i think at this point, governor, with all due respect, given what

we have gone through over the last 30, 40 years with political figures both here and washington and around the country who assume too much about their leadership. who take on too much in terms of their abilities to be all things to everyone. and the reality of it is, we are frail. we are broken. we are human. and so, if you lose sight of that when you have these responsibilities, you tend to get into these situations. and to the extent that you do, i think that's a violation of public trust and you need to take the appropriate steps and the first one of course is to remove yourself from that leadership position. >> michael, focus for a second. i don't mean it make this republican, democrat. there are trance guessers on both sides. would that mean that newt gingrich shouldn't be a candidate for president st united states? >> no. you are bridging in -- >> it is? >> hold up. you are bringing 17 years forward. there is a whole lot of things

that newt gingrich and others have done between the time they have you know, made their mistake or fallen, to where they are now. so should governor spitzer be on television speaking as he does? should rob blagojevich be getting the air time that he gets. so the reality of it is, these individuals when they fall, they take the initial step to remove themselves from that leadership role. i think that's the appropriate thing. then over time, governor let me finish the point. then over time they will make amends with the public. there is nothing to stop congressman weiner by 2013, 2014, 2015, being back in the good steads of the people of new york. but right now, i think it is an abuse of office to stay in that office. and certainly hurting democrats. i want to know which democratic leaders are willing to tell him to step aside. >> listen, i appreciate you. governor and michael i appreciate your acknowledgement

of the larger issue, which is human frailty, duplicity in general. the obvious collision course with the modern universe, 21st century communications network that creates a new standard that i think is unfamiliar to every last one of us. and a lot of folks are learning about it the hardest possible way. thank you governor and michael steele. the politics is where we will stay as we bring the mega panel into the conversation this afternoon. msnbc analyst karen finney, susan del percio, jimmy williams. it is a pleasure to see the three of you. first off, your thoughts on what you just heard. >> i'm just a little concerned that we have a sitting senator, and i want to know where michael steele thinks why anthony weiner should resign. i agree, i think he should resign. not because he broke laws, because he didn't. but because he failed public trust. just like clinton did.

david i have thor is sitting in there. he did break laws. he did cheat on his wife and he got re-elected and guess who helped him get re-elected? michael steele as former chairman of the rmc. >> if you were elected and everything that's happened, those rules allow to you be elected, it doesn't pro hib ut you from seeking office? >> we are not talking about rules. we are talking about morality. >> i think if we start having every member of congress -- if we have every member of congress that has an ethical problem raise bed them, there is not going to be many people left running this country. >> that's why we are doing this hour. because this is the -- the truth hour is upon us whether we like it or not. >> every couple of months there seems to be someone getting caught up in some kind of scandal. >> there is a lot to talk about. we will be here the entire hour. again for this moment, is anthony weiner, whether he should or shouldn't, will he or won't he, end up with this job a

year from now. >> i think based on what we know, that he won't. it appears that there may be more that we don't know. more information to come out. but here is the thing. again, i feel like i'm saying this for the millionth time. everything comes out. the problem that anthony has, just politically. take the emotion out. last week he did a round of interviews that were supposed to be the round of interviews to end all questions. which only raised more questions. the truth is, he was lying that point. he comes out a week later and he potentially within the context of that press conference may have misspoken. i will say that because we don't yet know all of the facts. to me, that's the bigger problem. what he does with the sex life, that's between he and his marriage and his family. >> in other words, at the end of the day, is anthony weiner's fate tied to whether the

democratic party stands -- is this a position to be made by anthony weiner, the people of new york that he represents, or the leadership of the democratic party? who has the power? >> it depends. if they find out it wasn't six, it was 16. if there is more fall-out. >> who is they? >> public democrats. >> i think anthony needs to ask himself and what governor ren dell was getting to, he has been an effective advocate for the democrats. he was invaluable. i don't see him doing that, unfortunately to me personally as a democrat, is what is partially heart breaking about this. i think we have to lose that voice. you're a journalist. if you had him on the show in six months, how do colorado y you -- how could you not ask him about that. >> i could not ask him about that. >> well you could. >> he lied to us once. he lied. he blatantly lied.

at the citadel in every one of the four barracks, which are the dorms. it said you do not lie, cheat or steal nor do you tolerate those who do. i'm sorry. i'm not perfect. by any means. but i got to tell you. when i michigan elected officials -- when my elected officials lie to me, i don't have much sympathy for them. when bill clinton got up if n front of america, i don't care that he banged monica lewinski, that's between him andis his wife. i don't care about vitter anthony weiner lied. let someone else take his seat. >> you can see where this hour is headed. i do hope you will stay with us this afternoon. as we find all of us, ourselves at a compelling crossroads, not

only in american history but in global history, in human history. as we find ourselves with a world wide web that provides opportunities to do anything and everything that a human being may have an impulse to do. some of those things very good. others quite destrublgtive. technology knocking down barriers to bad behavior, like infidelity. also, aiding and finding it out and covering it up. also, this whole sexting thing, whatever it is, does it cause us to redefine what infidelity is? there is question facing the 21st century society. what is infidelity. plus, nowhere to hide, my friend. with every dirty deed out in the open, all of us, you, me, people at this table, our government and people on the streets of new

york city face two choices, clean up your act or spill the beans and deal with it. where it's going to end though. we're back with more on this special edition. what do you got? restrained driver... sir, can you hear me? just hold the bag. we need a portable x-ray, please! [ nurse ] i'm a nurse. i believe in the power of science and medicine. but i'm also human. and i believe in stacking the deck.

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>> welcome back to a special edition of the dylan ratigan show. as human due blissity meets the internet and the truth spills all over basically everything, whether we like it or not. the phrase, heard through the halls of congress, when anthony weiners news broke out, that damn social media. indeed. that's how a capital hill colleague referred to the sources of congressman weiner's

undoing with politico. while technology catches so many offes this that would do things they aught not do, there are sites that facilitate people doing exactly what they are getting caught didding that they weren't supposed to do. you get my point. one of the more well known and controversial in fa sill dating immoral behavior if you want to do it that or promiscuity between these who are mard rid, to be more factual, ashley madison.com, they special eyes, get this, a website that specializes in aranging affairs between married men and married women. reducing the rate of getting caught. or that's the pitch. noel, do you think men and women's ability or frequency of infidelity or interaction has

gone up because of the internet? >> probably. you know, infidel sit closely tied to opportunity. whether the workplace or web, it is a great equalizer. i think more and more women are engaging in infidelity from a perspective where they couldn't before. >> how much is this technology allowing human impulses to be infest? the panel was saying to me during the commercial, jimmy carter said he felt lust in my heart. that was infidelity. now to thrust that lust into action, how significant is technology in reducing that threshold or any impulse? >> i think we have a new element to the word affair, which is the cyber affair. on our site you can sign up for short term, long-term, undecided. it doesn't mean it ends on the web. but that's what people are

intending to do and what the congressman started to do. >> right. we will get into that later in the show. we will talk about what infidelity is. what i'm most interesting in with you is your perception of a, technology's role of facilitating it. and b, whether in fact we are getting more of it because it is more easily achieved. do you think that anthony weiner would have been able to get away with what he was doing for instance if he used your site? give us a sense of how your website responds to the issue of the people's desire to cheat and their desire not to get caught? >> you know, listen, our foundation wag two-fold. one to create the lliaison and for people not to get caught. we call it the digital lipstick. it is from signing up, to not billing you under ashley madison.

there are messages in other people's inboxes have been around discretion. i think you hear about facebook affairs discovered. now this mistake on twitter. places that aren't catering to discretion. that is the worst place to conduct an affair. just like the workplace is the worst place to conduct an affair. this th is all about discretion. that might be more intensive for people to pursue it. >> founder and ceo of ashley madison, thank you newell. this goes to a conversation we had right before the show. we are talking about duplicity and being found out. not just about sex. it is about politics. under the underbelly of humanity, as you like to call it jimmy. you said the first response is to build a better mouse trap so you don't get caught. i said you have to have duplici duplicity. you said no, build a better mouse trap. that's what this guy did. >> pretty much. until you figure out, you know,

until someone figures out how to get on someone's account or it doesn't work a hundred percent. or someone said, i got busted, try this one. there is something to be said and you can be an optimist with this technology, that as much as it allows you to be due plis us to, if it is in your nature to do so. maybe to do something to be closer with your spouse. >> like a tool. >> it is a tool. like i said, what is people's nature. not necessarily that this website exists so you can be bad. >> a hundred percent. >> i actually disagree with that. i think technology actually initially gives people on a website like there a sense of anonymity and freedom that they mig might explore things they might not otherwise. this site is about enabling what some of us would consider bad behavior. i have to say there's part of me as a human uncomfortable with the idea that someone is making

money off of enabling people to lie. not to say that they are -- they go there to begin with. >> what you said is most important. all of this comes down to, dylan and i were talking about this before. back in the day before you could pick up the phone or text somebody, it was all about access. now you can you know, make a video of yourself and put it on youtube. you have facebook. you put yourself out there. one of the things i'm concerned about though in how we deal with these issues because it is moving so fast, this is part of why we are seeing cyber bullying. part of why we see young people being sexually abused and targeted through web sites because they are not even conscious of what they are doing when they are doing it and implications. . kids. like the kids who put the pictures on it. they are not aware the same by we are, that you know there's an implication to that with that you've got to be responsible about and understand. >> there are laws to protect children that fr that.

i'm not saying they will work. but have you two people going to this website and voluntarily putting themselves out there. there's a big difference. >> how the technology is enabling behavior. >> exactly. how do you look as as technology as an enabler, allowing for a human impulse that would not be manifest, to be man test because of the access. >> technology redefined the world as my oyster, hasn't it? >> this is about sex. >> follow me, when i was a kid growing up gay, the only gay people i knew is that the people i would hear my parents talk about either positively or negatively. and that's not a crack on them, that's just what it was. or you would see someone walk down the street or whatever. or you would hear it in school. today gay kids have far more

ability to find positive peers, positive on tv, technology brought that. they can now see something different besides from what they should quote, be in, for the rest of their lives. there is a positive side of technology. the probably is greed. the problem is the fact that humans are meant to error. humans are meant to do exactly what ty do. it is not right, it is not wrong. it is what it is. is it is human nature. we are fallible. >> how do you reconcile that. >> how do you reconcile that, with your god, with your spouse, with whoever. >> or politics. not just about sex. >> that line is shifting. we were talking about this before. would jfk survive today in environment? >> or fdr. >> no. >> probably not. >> i will tell you, if you think anthony weiner's press conference is scandalous.

i would like to see john kennedy's press conference. would never happen. we will take a break as we all both learn ourselves and invite you to engage in a debate yourselves, about how all of us are going to deal. forget the sex. with a political process, with a business environment, with a human environment that has so much of either little pieces of duplicity or jie grantic pieces of duplicity that we have to deal with. up next, a look at cyber affair. is it really cheating if the relationship is only on-line? we will ask our favorite relationship doctor after the break. membership rewards points from american express. the social currency. the morning after the big move starts with back pain... and a choice. take advil now... and maybe up to 4 in a day.

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>> to be clear, i have never met any of these women or had physical relationships at any time. >> anthony weiner admitting that he did tweet the photo while insisting he has not had physical relationships with anyone other than his wife but in a world where twitter

facebook, sexting and other social media avenues are a main source of interaction, does our definition of cheating or infidelity need to change with it? think of it like horse and buggy to the car. or gas lamp to electricity. new context. new information. new definition. dr. michelle callahan is a psychologist and life coach, writes about romance and dating in her book. stop sabotaging your relationships and find dating success. do you know jimmy, susan and karen? >> you guys are having a great discussion. >> well, you're going to make it better. again, give us your sense of how you would define going back -- what was it that jimmy carter said? >> i had lust in my heart. >> i think it starts there. you can't measure that. when your partner can't measure what is going on with your heart. that's your safety zone. you have what is in your head

and heart. >> why do you have to share that? >> many times my husband reads my thoughts. there are things can you do. it is your behaviors people are saying. so yes, this is expanding that definition. >> is it infidelity? >> yes it is infidelity. >> in a court of law -- go ahead. >> isn't that like porn? you know it when you see it. you know it when you feel it. in a relationship, what is treating to you, may not be to you. what is infe dillity to me my not be -- >> well, jimmy is -- >> what is that h. >> i do think there are basic things. i think we get into a gray area around the emotional stuff. we think the sexting is in the emotional zone. we didn't do anything. is t is ton-line. on the phone. but it is real. you are spending time with

someone else. there is intimacy between the two people. when you share that and split it off with other pep, you lose some. if you think about an emotional or time bank, when you are giving out to the wronk person, when you are giving to someone outside of that bond, you are losing, taking away from -- absolutely. >> questions? >> i want to touch on one thing you mentioned. as far as the legality of it. we know if you go to divorce court and you say this is what is happening and you have pictures. but is a text message or sexting message or facebook, you wonder how -- >> how about in a court of law? >> if it doesn't now, it might later. i think we have to begin to expand these things because we know it does have an impact. we haven't measured it yet. >> you think it is measurable? >> if you can produce texts like they are production them now and talk about how it impacted your

relationship. how do you impact a what intercourse has had. it is your word versus the other person's word. if you can show the material evidence that these things took place that since then your bedroom is colder. whatever it is. >> if you say an electronic interaction is infidelity? >> i've had this happen to me. i can tell you in the amount of time that my ex, i won't say who he is, spent on his iphone talking to dudes in a sexual way was the same exact amount of time that he didn't spend talking or having quote, sex, with me. and by the way, that really pissed me off. i'm not married to his iphone. i was with him. so you are talking to other dudes, what is to you need. talk to me about it. either i'm willing to help you with that because we're partners, or i'm not. if not, go get it, fine. that's your deal. but at the end of the day,

you're not asking me. just just doing it. that's cheating. that's lying. >> and the disempowerment that is ultimately the destruction in your relationship. >> you always have an out. you're never going to go back towards it and try to fix that. if you have a poor sex life, if you are not emotionally connected, that doesn't mean it is okay to reach out to another person and get it there. >> you are escaping from your relationship. we look at these elected officials, powerful men. >> and why powerful men. >> why do they go this way. >> i would say access. >> also, the sense of needing to escape from their world. they engage in these relationships because it has nothing 20 do with the world they are in. >> but everybody could want to escape. i wouldn't be willing to buy that. >> you say these men are not uniquely in need of escape. >> i think they are used to running high on adrenaline. so they are looking for change.

they are looking for adrenaline rushes. they are admired and have people's attention. they are drawn to that more than the average person. >> i think this is a bigger picture be not just the several weeks, but going back quite a while, that there is something going on in our culture why you have these men who are powerful who seemingly have it all and are willing to risk it all for a sexual thrill on the side. part of it the adrenaline, makes them feel sexy. makes them feel strong. powerful. >> believing you can get away with it. >> particularly, by the way, any fool who thinks they don't get caught now, you deserve to get caught. >> remember that song from the -- >> remember that tune from the 1970s, you all remember, the pina colada, getting caught in the rain. he is going to go meet the other chick an that's hs wife. that is a cute little song. the dude was cheating. and it is not a new problem.

internet -- by the way, guess who else was cheating? his wife. she had an ad too. >> that's the interesting thing. you look at the prevalence of infid infidelity, whether by virtue of electronic infidelity or physical infidelity and interestingly at the same time, if you do polling, the moral acceptability of infidelity is really low. 91% of people polled in the gullup, 91% of people, it is an abomination. it should not be tolerated. it should be punished. 7% think it is okay. now, forget it, right? so meanwhile, 6% of the same people believe divorce is acceptable. morally. 15%, more than double, believe that suicide is morally correct. in other words, two times as

many people believe killing yourself is more morally appropriate act than infidelity. >> the divorce right rait in this country 53%. i would like to suggest in front of everybody that watches this program and watches tv that a super majority of all marriages and relationships, people are cheating. they are cheating because they are not talking to each other. it is just that simple. >> in other words, if you are in a state of engagement, if you are not resolving your relationship on a day-to-day basis, sexually, business, life, whatever it is. if you are not in an active state of resolution, which is scary and hard and people don't like to do it pz because of that, you can be in this active state and still cheat. even in the midst of it, you are looking for that outlet. you are looking for change. you are looking for a new level of high. can you be in a completely active marriage in a lot of ways

but have something about you, it is not your marriage, it is you. something in you has a desire to seek outside of that and take your level of highs on another level. >> i will put this on the table quickly. this z this mean we need to about it a new paradigm that not everybody should be married. rather than saying i will have this life here and that life there, have people be more true to who they are. >> i with wish people would do that. stop trying to do what your parents did. stop trying to live up to this idea that marriage is perfect and it is bad it cheat. then don't cheat by not getting married. everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. slow down and take your time. what's the rush to get married. >> as the five of us represented at this table is completely different from every other human being. >> yes. marriage is not for everyone. >> but we can still take out for everyone. >> but gay marriage is what is wrong with marriage in america. according to my socially

conservative friends. it is what is wrong with america. >> anthony weiner, not the first, won't be the last. coming up, the long list of political sex scandals as duplicity of human nature and internet complied before our reeyes on a daily basis. i had a heart problem. i was told to begin my aspirin regimen. i just didn't listen until i almost lost my life. my doctor's again ordered me to take aspirin. and i do. [ male announcer ] be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. [ mike ] listen to the doctor.

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>> the most upsetting thing about having a friend caught up in a scandal of this nature is, finding out, a, he is packing jumbo heat. and b, that he's ripped. i can't believe this guy and i are the same age. that's my problem. here's a picture of me from this morning. i mean, how -- >> we are back for a moment of levity amid of all of this history show as anthony weiner is far from the first to be exposed and he won't be the

last. >> i did not have sexual relations with that woman. >> i have not been honest with myself, my family, my constituents, my friends and supporters and the media. >> there's no question that i've done wrong. >> i've acted in a way that violate my obligations to my family and that violate my or any sense of right and wrong. >> the bottom line is this, i've been unfaithful to me wife. >> she is not here.

>> a shortage of women in that video. >> yeah. >> you can run, but you can't hide. coming up in the age of the internet, will our politicians, our government, our industry and yes, our political men and women in general, clean up their act or are the rest of us just going to have to learn to accept their dirty deeds because hiding it, no longer an option. we're back after this. find it's the vegetables. deliciously rich. flavorful! [ female announcer ] together at last. introducing new stouffer's farmers' harvest with sides of lightly sauteed farm-picked vegetables. find more ways to get to the table at letsfixdinner.com.

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>> that famous line, from a few good men, can also help us in breaking down the age of the meta. the ability of everything to be known or noble. look at your iphone, your ipad, your friend's computer. look at wikileaks. because regardless of what people would have all of us believe, the truth in the 21st century for the first time in 150,000 years of human history is only a click away. one out of every five divorce petitions filed on-line now sites facebook. four out of five divorce lawyers reported increase in the use of social networking evidence. we, on this show, beyond all of

this, know more than we ever have about the flow of money between the flow of banks, healthcare companies, we saw what happens with wikileaks. this is more than cheating and relationships. this is about cheating the system with the ease of technology to facilitate it. at the same time that technology makes it easier to catch you doing it. we all find ourselves at a crossroads as a result. do we accept that people do bad things? or do we try to force a shift in human behavior, either through accepting certain things and changing other things, james. do you agree we are at this crossroads? it seems pretty clear we find ourselves here. >> i think in history the pendulum swings. i think there were times when the public found out more about its elected leaders and other and religious leaders. we haven't talked about religious leaders.

>> yeah. >> but the pendulum is swinging back to where we are finding out more. technology is helping us along that path. do i think the pendulum swings back in yes, i do. history showis us that it does from time to time. my problem is is this, i'm over the pi pock racy of american people. how people think that lbyists are bad or money is the corruption of all evil. gay marriage is making my marriage fail. whatever. really? how about look at yourself. you don't like the fact, not you, the american people. you don't like the fact that gas costs so much. then don't drive a big huge massive ass car and spend a lot of money on gas. you don't like the fact that milk cost so much? get your own cows. you don't like the fact that your wife cheats? then talk with her about what she wants. you don't like the fact that your kids aren't paying attention in school? pay attention to them at school. it is easy to blame everybody else.

don't blame me. i'm not responsible for my own actions. we hold our politicians and religious leaders it a different standard than we hold ourselves. i don't want to hold them to a different standard. i want to hold myself to that standard. >> 91% of the people out there think cheating is morally wrong. >> but they do. >> but they do it. >> it makes the american people hypocrites. >> but they're human. >> i think human nature -- >> it is simple. >> no, it's not. we are more complicated human beings. part of what technology is doing is showing us what is true all along wp we are human. have fallacies. we had our icons, heros and we believed a certain thing about them. technology is saying you know what, actually, he puts his pants on one leg at a time like everyone else. >> and he takes them off. >> and he takes them off. sometimes places he shouldn't.

because we now have more information our responsibility to ourselves and to our culture, toy think the line, shifts in terms of the understanding, things that we now don't make a big deal out of, 50 years ago it was a big deal. that's the process of humanity. >> but the process is also the way we have looked at technology for the laugh 150 years, people do things and they try and steal or cheat. whatever it is -- >> the car made bank robbers easier. >> so when we find them doing it, as soon as we catch them, they are going to look for another way to do it. as soon as they find that other way, it is human nature to find a betware to catch them again. that's what our human behavior is. >> that's a rat trap argument. i think our counter argument is we have reached the end of the line. >> how could we? because it was a press or not or investigation would have shown that anthony weiner was -- >> i say forget anthony weiner,

when i say the end of the line, i mean the functionality after hypocritical government, hypocritical industry and hypocritical lives, is revealed for the hypocrisy that it is. >> it happened a hundred years ago too. >> but i think the awareness of it is maxed out. i think it is why you got cairo. why you've got the unrest in china. >> i don't think we know that actually. 20 years ago they thought we were at the end. >> fair enough. >> we talked about when gabrielle giffords was shot, about the gun issue. it is not the gun. it is not the technology, that's the truch. that's the conduit. it's about learned behavior. about is about what your parents teach you and what you deem to be. i'm sorry, i'm pretty sure -- >> it's more complicated. >> i'm pretty sure i use the bathroom just like barack obama does. i'm pretty sure i drive just like everybody else does.

it doesn't make him more complicated to me. >> i've run the clock. this conversation i guarantee you isn't going away. jimmy, susan, karen, very well done today. thank you for joining me and having this conversation with me. not only with me but with our guests. see you on thursday. coming up on "hardball." chris matthews has more on anthony weiner. first, navigating what i see as a new world where everything is seen but not everyone wants to be seen. a special truth to power, next. as a manager, my team counts on me to stay focused.

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>> all right, welcome back. it's been a peculiar couple of

days for all of us that pay attention to the political process that are concerned about the core issues that are at the root of the problems in this country, most notably the lack of jobs. and by my view, the unholy alliance between american business and our government to perpetuate the undead. banks that should have failed, healthcare systems, et cetera. at the same time, we have these distractions and we have to figure out how to reconcile. some people say, you shouldn't cover that, why are you covering that. we find ourselves in a period of unprecedented change. unprecedented rate of change. adaptability has not been the priority for human behavior. and so it's scary for all of us. at the same time, we are being faced with incredibly difficult truths whether it's as consequential as wikileaks or as frivolous as a twitter picture. but the bottom line for all of it is the