>> $4 trillion according to a new study getting attention this week.

the figure keeps going up. the governor of oklahoma is serious when it comes to the budget. he talkabout the problem. >> the size of the government, most americans don't know this. the bill clinton budget in 2001 was $338 billion. we're at $3.7 billion right now, double what we were ten years ago. what else do you go other than google and some of the other tech are twice the size as ten years? >> i know, i know, pick me. it's not google, senator, but the pentagon budget, that's double in ten years, plus a lot of war spending. today was the last day on the

job for bob gate whose big going away sceremony was held at the pont gone. he's spent 45 years in the government serving eight different presidents, and one of the most striking things about his last tour of service is his insistence that some other part of the government do some of the nation's work around the world aside from the u.s. military. bob gates is a republican. he's kind of republican hulk. this is bob gates. but as defense secretary, he's talking about how bad it is for the country. the u.s. is flexing our military muscles and essentially allowing all our other muscles to atrophy. three months into the obama controversy, he was lobbying senators, asking them for more money, not for the defense department, not for his own department, but for the state

department. democratic supporters said this, but the insintant lobbying by bob gates on the part of the state department may be fear naught. it's been put on the chopping block again and again by republicans, and frankly, we don't even argue about it anymore. even from the secretary of st e state, even when the immensely popular secretary of defense, the only man popular enough to brim the administration happily, even when he makes a big think of the priorities, when it comes to the military, washington is still a 94-0 kind of town. no debate, no politics, consent. much has been made about whether or not it's changing and whether the parties will ever have a defense.

we keep hearing that's possible. maybe it is. but convince me. joining us is lawrence, serves as the secretary of defense in the reagan administration. he administered about 70% of the defense budget and he's also former director of securities and does studies on foreign relations. nice to have you. do you think we're in an environment where it may be possible to repriortize our devotion to military spending? >> i think it is because the newly elected republicans realize that the defense has been responsible for a lot of the deficit we have had. if you go back and look at 2001, president bush said wie have eliminated the deficit by 2010, and what's has changed inthe military, the baseline budget, exclusive of war costs, hajust

about doubles in terms, and that's had a big, big role in getting this deficit. it costs about a million dollars for every truth that we have in afghanistan. something people are recognizing, that the defense has got to be a part of this. and secretary gates basically has played a shell game. you're giving him too much credit. he said let's spend more on the state department, but he didn't want to take any from defense. where did he think he was going to get it? he never did, he, for example, in 2008, he presented what he thought would be his last budget to congress, the 2009 budget on the bush administration. he said by 2012, we'll need about $543 billion in the base budget. you know what he asked for this year? $553 billion, that's after he pretended to make all these cuts. >> what kind of leadership do

you think is needed and could be expected in order to get this done. republicans are touting their issues of fiscal issues, and there's a question whether the fiscal gains could be culled from the defense issue. and especially in the last decade. >> i think you're seeing a return to the tradition republicans now. let's not forget eisenhower cut defense spending by 60% in his time in office, nixon by 30%, reagan in his second term, and the first president bush before the end of the cold war cut it by another 25%. traditionally, they have been the ones who have been very hard on defense and use defense as a way to balance the budget. i think you're beginning to see that now with people like jon huntsman and mitt romney talking about afghanistan, and president obama having gotten bin laden, he can overcome the democrats we

are defense thing that has haunted him for a while. i think yowlver those two things coming together to have some meaningful reductions and you have the deficit reduction commission. and senator simpson talked about cutting $1 million in the next decade. >> in terms of the bin laden raid, it will be immensely consequenceal. we assume in terms of security concerns. that was a small operation in a town where we don't have ground troops. how much does the success of that familiar operation factor into these discussions? can i have a -- i guess a wide term in terms of the different levels of the budget levels and the rate that affects? >> the budget for the command that got to bin laden is about $11 billion in a $700 billion budget. what this shows is you don't have to invade countries, try to

overthrow the regimes, transform the societies to protect our security. that's the lesson of getting bin laden. even secretary gates has said any secretary of defense who would recommend that type of operation should have his head examined. i wish he would have practiced that when he was in office, but nonetheless, i think that's a good idea. >> i enjoy talking to you. thank you for your time. >> thank you for having me. >> coming up, charlie brown and somebo impersonating charlie brown help us understand what is going on in washington right now. we do our best to make it fun. >> this country was built on opportunity and equality for all. that how we got great. we need to refocus on those

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and treatment options that can help reduce your risk for heart attack and stroke. there's even a discussion guide for you to bring to your doctor that can help you discuss p.a.d. together. call the toll free number on the screen for your free information kit today. the risk is real. take the next step. call today. it's wonderful, funny, second, while being funny, it's a little melancholy. one of the recurring themes is about kids going into analysis. there's a reason all of the songs and specials are on a lighter key.

it's a little dark either way you're looking at peanuts. but one of the things we have to thank peanuts and charles schultz for is for something that happened in washington all the time. it's lucy with the football. charlie brown thinks that lucy is going to hold the football for him. every time she convinces him she will hold the football for him, and every time, she pulls it away at the last second. >> do it, do it! [ peanuts theme song playing ] >> oh! >> lucy and charlie brown with the football is such a familiar american metaphor that it comes up in a skit, even in burlesque shows, even like this one in

south carolina last year. it explains exactly what is going on in washington between democrats and republicans since obama got elected. republicans are for an individual mandate to buy insurances until democratics were for it too, and then they were against it. same thing on cap and trade. they oppose said it as their solution to pollution. and then republicans decided their own idea was toxic. seven republican governors co-sponsored legislation to bring down the deficit. they wanted it, it was their idea up till president obama signed off on it. >> this all failed by seven votes. when seven republicans co-sponsored the bill and co-sponsored the idea.

somebody walked away from their own proposal after i endorsed it. they make a proposal, sign on the deal, i say, great, great idea. i turn around, they're gone. what happened? >> now, it has happened again. republicans are bailing out of talks on a deal to keep the u.s. from defaulting on our debt, and they're doing so by rejecting their own proposal, as a blog in ror rortybomb had to say. in march, congressional members issued this report. spend the less, oh, less, grow the economy. it's a republican thing that included a pie chart that's the republican solution for solving the deficit. according to their math, their equation for the economy would be 85% spending cuts and 15% new tax revenue.

85% to 15%, republican formula, republican proposal. here's what the democrats offered in return. their own elixir of 83% spending cuts and 17% new tax revenue including from rich oil companies and tycoons flying around in jets. so the counteroffer is basically a rounding error off what they said the republicans wanted in the first place. republicans are two points away from getting exactly what they demanded and what they set out as their goal. if you're that close, you could have a deal, right? wrong. republicans have now decided they don't like the republican idea now that democrats have said okay to it. now they want another deal, never mind the perfect recipe from three months ago. their new recipe is 100% spending cuts. no way, not ever, not since

march. that a long time, sorry charlie brown. this latest rejection by republicans of republican ideas could come with consequences that are severe. they're agreeing on a deal before agreeing to raise the ceiling on the american debt so we don't default on the loans. two cartoons and a football is just a metaphor. america plunges the world into an economic meltdown, that's a grim look. joining us is gene. thanks for being here. >> it'siga great to be here, bu feel like i wish i could be here on a lighter key. >> i just wish i had a yellow shirt with a big swiggal on it. all right, let me ask you about the eugene robinson approach to the day's problem. on monday, you say republicans

are right. we shouldn't raise taxes in a recession. democrats are right that we should not cut spending in a recession. what is the eugene robinson plan to make everything normal? >> not make the economy worse, first of all, because we're trying to get out of the recession and it seems to be insane to make the economy worse, which i think cutting spending the way the republicans want to do will make the economy a lot worse. raising taxes like the democrats want to do might make the economy a little worse, so let's not do it now. what they need to do is agree on some deficit caps down the road, in 2013, the deficit will be capped at x% of gdp, and in twaen 14, it will be a smaller percentage, and it goes on and on. then you won't have to have a fight over how you get to that

figure. they'll get up to that figure. but that's a fouth we need to have because that's really a fight about what kind of government we want to have, how much we want to pay for it, and it frankly is not something that is going to be decided before this second. >> how do you negotiate, even if you were negotiated for is the cap you're describing now. let's not do stuff in the economy and agree to do no harm right now, oo even to come to that agreement, there has to be big negotiation. how should the democrats be negotiating with people who are rejecting their own ideas? >> well, if you're going to negotiate with the person who has been deploying the rebuttle away, somehow, you have to change the game. and i think you could argue that in his press conference yesterday, president obama perhaps changed the game in that he said, you know, we're not going to do this anymore.

we have met you halfway. we always meet you three quarters of the way, and finally commit to it all together, and we're not going to do it this time. we're going to stand where we are, and no matter how ridiculous and dangerous your position is. and so now we'll see how that plays. we'll see if the president and the party stick within line and if indeed this changes the game. >> democrats in the senate, dick durbin and richard schumer has been beginning to accuse republicans of not just not gettg it, but getting it and trying to sabotage the party for election purposes. trying to sabotage obama's re-election chances so there's as much pain in the world as possible. is that a bridge too far oran argument that is going to need a

response or proof to the contrary? >> to be honest, it has occurred to me this is a possibility. i think six months ago, if democrats or the president had said that, it would have been a bit too far. in the current context, if it's the president seems reasonable but firm, seemed to have met the republicans more than halfway, seemed to have differed by more than 2% points, and he had this maximalest theological position of absolutely no tax revenue increases whatsoever, and thieni think if you focus on the nation becoming more interceptive to that idea, then you'll get reaction. >> okay, that was ready somewhere.

now i feel like i'm the kid with the bugs flying around my helmet. >> i don't know how you'll be able to go on. >> this is it. i am piqued. good night. eugene robinson, msnbc columnist and the first member of our cast to have his own website. >> the reverend al sharpton sitting in for ed schultz again on the ed shoed. he's been amazing to watch the last couple nights, so i recommend checking it out after we're done. before that, the best new thing in the world today is -- really great, and i can't say it, and i hope i can say it by the time we get to the end of the show, but i can't say it right now. sorry.

...... ...............

one of the things that former minnesota governor tim pawlenty has been bragging about running for president is that he brought minnesota to brink of government shutdown. his home state of minnesota tonight is on the brink of a government shutdown. state parks and campgrounds in minnesota have already closed in anticipation of a shutdown that is happening because of a budget standoff between the democratic governor of minnesota, mark dayton and the republican-controlled legislature. republican legislative leaders have been keeping quiet about the state of negotiations. late today, they did start talking to the press in an effort to try to nudge negotiations forward. republican legislative leaders telling reporters that both sides are close enough to prevent the minnesota state government from shutting down on the eve of the fourth of july long weekend. the deadline really for shutdown unless they pass a short-term extension is midnight minnesota time, which should be 1:00 a.m. eastern time. we'll keep an eye on the negotiations as they continue. we'll be right back.

the women's world cup soccer tournament is underway in germany. the u.s. look like they're going to do great. they beat north korea 2-0. although this is the fourth straight time the u.s. soccer team has beaten north korea, north korea still can't quite believe it. their coach explained after the match that the only reason the north korean women lost is because the whole team was struck by lightning. nobody knew of this before but

he said much of the team was struck by lightning and more than five of the team's players had to be hospitalized including the goalie. how many more than five? i don't know. why wait until after the match to disclose the supposed lightning strike that caused the glorious north koreans to lose to the yankee imperialist dogs when they totally otherwise would have won? i also don't know. but because north korea is an occasionally surreal autocratic dictatorship full of prison camp, we can speculate as to why the national soccer coach might want a good excuse for losing. in future, however, we may have better information on which to base our speculation about the world's weirdest country because yet the associated press announced it will open a real news bureau in north korea. pointer.org calling this the first permanent text and photo

bureau operated by a western news organization in pyongyang. so in the future when state media says kim jong il got 11 ols in one or double rainbows formed spontaneously to celebrate the dear leader's birth or the soccer team only lost because they got struck by lightning, we'll at least have a second source to check those claims. we'll see how long that lasts. whew! i need a break from programming all these car insurance discounts, online. i'm dishing out discounts all day. doesn't the esurance website do most of, your work? "bew!," safe-driver discount. "bew," homeowner discount, "zing," multi-car discount.

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blue t-shirts that says poop fairy on them. the sheriff's department also distributed this description of the fairy. the fabled poop fairy has been the stuff of legend, flying undetected in neighborhoods and schoolyards. she was said to pick up what the dog left behind. before flying off to the next canine creation. get it? a widespread belief she existed seemed to assure some that cleaning up after one's dog was optional. the campaign also includes this artist's rendering of the poop fairy. you can see she has attractive sandy blond hair, enormous shins, a close pin on her nose, and curly antenna sticking out of her forehead right above her eyes. it's possible there's someone who works in the jefferson's county sheriff's department who has been underutilized at that job until