this time. you're going to find somebody new. the canadian football league just started this week. my god. happy fourth of july. >> well done. brilliant, you captured this. toure, thanks. that will do it for us. i'm off all week next week. matt miller take care of you for the holiday week. i look forward to seeing you a week from monday and chris matthews is with us right now. . fireworks come early. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chuck todd sitting in for chris matthews. leading off tonight. can't we all just get along. the government in minnesota, shut down. lockouts in both the nfl and nba. democrats and republicans aren't

remotely close a debt ceiling and cats and dogs still aren't living together. we don't seem to be able to agree on anything. democrats and republicans are waiting for the other side to blink on raising the debt ceiling and the mere prospect of default has real life implications, oh, for the rest of us, interest rates and the economic recovery. but the two parties, are they really willing to play roulette with the u.s. and global economy. 23 the u.s. government defaults on its debt or comes close, discuss with disgust may become so great it could open a door to a serious run for an independent. not since ross perot have we seen anything like to. on this independence day weekend, we ask, could we find a real run for an independence day party candidate? and talking about president obama's handling of the economy, romney told nbc news, quote, i didn't say thing, worse, except that he did just days earlier. quite a few times. we've got it all on tape, put it

together in an independence day weekend panel of experts to look ahead at the republican feel add all those money reports and everything else and the president's chances of re-election and the nba lockout added to in the l lockout. is it possible? a fall and winter with no football and basketball because these millionaires and billionaires really can't agree on thousand divide billions of dollars. finally, what's wrong with this picture? nothing, if you're mitt romney. one candidate's son is posing with him. here's a hint. it's not romney's son, but it's the son of another presidential candidate. we'll have it all on the "sideshow." steve israel, chairman of the dccc and a democrat from new york and joins me now. congressman israel, i want to talk about where we are in these debt talks. it seems to me i've talked with democrats involved in it. they say they got close to an agreement on $1.5 trillion. reports republicans were up to

$2 trillion and cuts. the sticking point is these, "revenues or taxes." what is the state of play as you understand it? you're the member of the house leadership? >> there is something that a republican member of congress and this democratic member of congress can agree on. and that is, that a republican freshman from upstate new york today said that the republicans are playing a dangerous game of chicken with the debt ceiling, and that is something i agree with. let's understand what these republicans have been doing. they want to end medicare, just introduced a bill to privatize associate security. they want to extend tax cuts for people making over $1 million. they want to spend $40 billion in corporate welfare for oil companies and are willing to bring down the economy and increase people's credit card rates by not extending the debt ceiling fairly and in a balanced way to achieve the objectives. i agree with that republican congressman. they are playing a dangerous game of chicken.

the middle class is a victim and they need to do what what john boehner prochlsed when he became speaker. the adults need to negotiation in good faith and instead the children are running it and it's a disservice to the american people. >> yesterday senator chuck schumer speculated that republicans are simply trying to sabotage the economy just to see president obama fail. let's listen to this. >> we need to start asking ourselves an uncomfortable question. are republicans slowing down the recovery on purpose for political gain in 2012? and now it's becoming clear that insisting 0 an slash and burn approach may be part of this plan. it has a double benefit for republicans. it's ideologically tidy and it undermines economic recovery, which they think only helps them in 2012. if the public comes to believe that republicans are deliberately sabotaging the

economy, it will backfire politically. >> that is some -- that is a harsh charge. as member of the democratic leadership arguably, second most powerful u.s. senator in the democratic-controlled senate. do you agree with senator schumer there, congressman? >> well, look, the fact of the mat sir that even republican economist john mccain's economic adviser said today that if the republicans do not come to the table and engage in a fair and balanced negotiation that extends the debt limit without, in a fair way that increases revenues and also reduces spending that we will be thrown back into a recession. more people will lose their jobs. people's credit card interest rates will be going up and to the fact of the matter, any progress we've made on the economy will be lost by the single act of republicans failing to negotiate in a fair and balanced way where the sacrifice is shared and not borne by the middle class. one other thing, all you have to do is look at eric cantor who

quit on the economy, quit on the talks, refused to negotiate. he's the number tv guy. chuck schumer may be number two in the senate. eric cantedor number two in the republican house of representatives. not only quit on the talks he quit on the economy. that tells me everything i need to know about the housing of the republican -- >> doesn't sound like you're ready to sign on with senator schumer's theory that the republicans are deliberately trying to sabotage the economy? >> i am more interested in outcome than input and the outcome we need is what every small business and every american who has to balance a budget goes through. we freed to redice debt. and the way to do that is to decrease spending, democrats are willing to tighten our belts. we understand we need to do that. we've already come up with a trillion dollars in cuts and we need to ask big oil companies and people making over a million dollars to do their fair share by increasing revenues. >> talk about a short-term deal. are you willing to vote for something that is six to eight months, simply the trillion, trillion and a half in cuts that have been agreed to among, among

the biden group to raise the debt ceiling temporarily? can you sign on to something like that? >> chuck, i prefer not to. i wasn't elected to kick the can. the fact of the matter is we don't need to kick the can. everybody know what's needs to be done. tighten our belts, reduce spending, increase revenues, deal with entitlement reform. the elements of a long-term deal that will help our economy grow and pos per in the future. we've done it before. we can do it gren. nice to have republicans to negotiate with in good faith. >> congressman, one of the things that supposedly is getting to have trend's in it, agreed upon according to democrats i've talked to, some cuts in medicare. i know you guys have been making a big deal about the 45th anniversary of medicare just passed. are you going to sign on to something that does have some trims in medicare as long as you don't feel like it hits beneficiaries directly? >> well, we passed the affordable health care bill last year that provides for nearly

$500 billion in fishs is. the republicans attacked us for those efficiencies. we will strengthen medicare, improve medicare, reform medicare, ending medicare is off the table. we will not agree to it and will not negotiate it. >> congressman steve israel. have a good fourth of july weekend. and we'll see you all of you -- >> big mets/yankees series in new york. >> you know what? i'm always root forge the national league. always get a ticket to the big guy, to the yankees. congressman israel. thanks. >> thank you. joining me now, chief congressional kornt for the ar national kujournal." congressman israel, doesn't want to kick the can. if the deal is cut and there's a temporary deal and it's sometimes, right now, that's what smells like what's coming. >> yes. he would have said, i will vote against that. he didn't say that. he did not. important what they say and don't say matters.

>> he didn't say i'll vote against it. that's important. it's up to the house republican leadership to bring that to the floor. top agree to a short-term resolution of this absent a huge deal. >> you know -- >> eric cantor told me this week, very calm on this. >> check this out. a column about eric cantor. if we look at it in five pots here. five negotiations, the white house, senate republican, senate democrats, house democrats, all reluctantly support the short-term deal. the one loose wouldn't -- >> don't want to vote twice and a substantial number ever the house republican majority, now totals 239, that want this to be the moment of decision. that don't want to have a moment of indecision. they want this, all of this to come to a head now. with all the implications that come with it. the only way, chuck, i see a short-term agreement passing is if implied in that, implied -- i mean written almost in blood, that the short term is all

spending cuts in revenues. zero. and you agree preemptively that the second stage of negotiations will include tax reform and the president commits publicly to lower individual rates, corporate rates and look at subsidies democrats are talking about. republicans might sign on to that, but we're a long, long way away from any kind of deal like that. >> the thing i never bought into is, who the heck -- i'm going to fast forward seven months from now. going to have more political courage than they do now? right, when you're in the middle of an election year. >> unless you figure out and believe as republicans might that the president will be even more willing to lower rates and do other things, because he's so desperate about the economy. >> let's talk about this. >> that's one possible scenario, but i share your skepticism. >> in the middle of who's got leverage? one hand, president obama this week who decided to do something he hasn't done in a while. go publicly and call them out. got under the skin of

republicans. got under their skin. they fought back. everybody thinks they have leverage. >> not only leverage, entrenched positions that must be defended. republicans believe with a slack economy, if they give in on tax increases, their base, not in love with them in the first place -- >> how fragile is that? you were telling me beforehand they're afraid of losing 100 members if they're not careful? >> lost 57 on the deal to keep the house open. >> house republicans? >> yes. a reasonable fear of losing up to 100 to maybe 120. if you lose that many house republicans on the biggest domestic deal of the year, possibly this congress, that's a borderline crisis. democrats similarly don't believe they can go anywhere farther than where they've gone on spending cuts with no revenues, because if they do, their base will defect. when you have 23 democrat seats up if 2012 and a president looking for re-election and a base walking away from you, that's also a price. >> here was a response yesterday to president obama. take a listen.

>> if you take a valium and calm down, come down and talk to us, it might be helpful. >> it's class war fair afare an something would you expect from a third world country not the president of the united states. >> he should be ashamed. i respect the office of president of the united states, but i think the president has diminished that office and himself by giving the kind of campaign speeches that he gave yesterday. >> you know, major, i was sort of surprised that they're all shocked. i mean, at the end of the day, there's been a lot of shots fired at the white house. a lot of shots fired at the president, questioning his leadership. it's only natural sometimes that the president's going to fight back? >> the president is about 48 or 49 in the polls. economic numbers more shallow. he personally, 47, 48, 49. depending which poll. congress, 17, 18, 19, 20. hello. do the basic math there. the president's press conference, moving the needle of

public opinion. both sides are entrenched the. >> trying to reframe the debate. >> and whenever generally speaking the american public sees congress defending itself for inaction, they assume they're inactive. >> right. >> so the president knows he has more to gain than to lose by striking this particular contract with congress. now, it's also fair to say the president advices negotiations, walked way. for seven or eight weeks they've been talking. >> more people say to me, why is it -- all watched the movie "dave" too much, frankly. why is it he's pulling a kevin kline asaying, every day, come n in. >> until that happens, which governor christie has done, other presidents have done. until we see that engagement, which we did at the very end before the government shutdown. >> which told u.s. it can work. until we see that level of engagement we're not moving anywhere. chuck, by the middle ever the

month, the markets will start to price and they will not price it rationally and do it early. >> do it early. >> when the psychology takes effect we don't know what the psychology will do. >> by the way -- we'll see what the tea party, how big it really is. >> right. >> we'll find out how many there are. great to the you have on. thank you. coming up, with all this battling over the budget and drama over or the debt ceiling there may be room nor a third party candidate for president. especially if washington continues this gridlock. it is the opportunity for some independent candidate to get in the race, like ross perot did back in the '90s? waiting for perot? you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. new newtons fruit thins. real cranberries and delicious cranberry citrus oat... ♪ or real blueberries... ♪ ...and luscious blueberry brown sugar.

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unhappy with washington, with the president, with the economy. could this anger fuel an actual third party independent candidacy come 2012? we saw it with ross perot. could it happen again? joining us, msnbc political analysts. good guys to have on this topic. let me start, look, the direction of the country. just 29% right now in our poll. we got the president approval

rating on the economy upside down. way over 50% disapprove. congress' job rating sitting in the teens. the idea the republicans brought change to congress, majority say, no. or the wrong type of change. it's all there. what's it going to take? >> there isn't any respective figure or institution on the landscape. you're right. i was out in minnesota at democratic event where they were charging themselves up for the big budget fight in minnesota and the election. i didn't hear anybody say anything particularly nice about barack obama. from the democratic side. they didn't -- attack him, of course, but didn't say anything. yeah, obama. the republican side, all they're doing is not paying attention to their own milk toast presidential candidates, just attacking the president as, you know, the center of all evil. so what's it going to take? it's going to take somebody with big ego and lots of money. in 1992, that was ross perot.

>> he's little. >> yes. the only one who fits all of those descriptions now is the mayor of new york, michael bloomberg. >> simply because he's short? >> no. >> he has billions. >> he has billions, the ego and the organizational gift, by the way. he built bloomberg just the way perot built perot systems and so forth. these are guy whose know how to build empires in business, who think, some of them, that they can build a temporary empire, which is what a presidential campaign is. bloomberg says he's nots going to do it. >> angus king, one of the great names of american politics, on another show this morning, one that i'm very familiar with called "daily rundown." i asked him. he brought up a candidate. a potential candidate for an independent candidacy or third-party ticket. listen. >> i think it would be somebody, a guy named chuck hagel, for example, a republican senator

from nebraska. >> endorsed obama, essentially. >> yeah, yeah, and she a trick guy. i could see a guy like that and maybe a slightly disaffected democrat coming together and forming a team that could change american politics. >> this goes to this idea that, because the business community isn't very well thought of, frankly, these days, you're not going to get a businessman, a la perot or lee iacocca, warren buffett, probably too old to run for president. no other figure. a disaffected paul. that was his theory. >> who was that handsome guy interviewing angus? >> bring it on. there you go. >> chris, i thought he would mention chuck. when he said chuck i thought he was going to say, chuck todd. >> yeah, well. >> you bring up a good point. the wall street business tycoon type is going to wear a little less well after every -- you

know, the bank bailout and everything we've seen with the economy. a rich guy coming in spending a bunch of his own money because he's interested in office doesn't sell as well. haigel is an interesting idea. you know, the chithing, howard touched on it. clearly disaffection. remember in 2010, chuck, people voted for republicans in cons but didn't like him. eve be though they disapproved. there is an idea out there, yes, we want something different. it's just the people underestimate how powerful the two parties are. there are minute things that matter and cost lots of money. getting on ballots in all the states. collecting signatures. that's why you need a rich guy, or gal. i just don't see anybody out there. i don't see -- yes, chuck hagel in theory on paper. put in the money, do the collecting. it's too much of a pain. >> sure. he brings up the ballot. angus king talked a group called

americans elect. another group four years trying to get on the ballot. if there is a group that says, here you go. we got ballot access. there's a lot of politicians whose egos will say, well, if you -- if you build it, maybe i did come. >> i think that's true, and chris is right. that's the way it would work this time. i'm a little unclear how the new campaign laws and how the freedom to have super pacs and so forth to spend unlimitedly would allow big money people who if they didn't run on their own could help fund making sure one of those parties could get ballot access. when i first started in the '8 0s getting ballot access was nearly impossible. a lot of losses and -- it's now possible to do it. you need a lot of money and can do it and can get on in all 50 states. that would be the way it would have to happen. >> chris, one more poll, msnbc "wall street journal" 308. inconsistent. 31% believe the two-party system

is so broken the country needs a third party. 52% say the system has problems but can still work well with improvements with a two-party sill system. i guess the question is, when this happened, when perot rose up you saw the two parties response, and bill clinton suddenly became interested in fiscal issues. he hadn't been before that and you saw republicans suddenly start to talk about government and things like that's in this case, i don't see the two parties talking about trying to look like they're going to get something done and fix something. >> no. and you know, chuck, i think what you point to is -- it's possible a third party candidate comes out who drives the discussion. look, there was in '92, i remember '92. a time when ross perot looked like he might win that thing. >> he won the message war. he actually did win the message war. >> he shaped the race. the question, is there a safer independent that can do that and does that person who gets it, if he or she does, are they okay

with shaping a race and losing? >> and losing. >> that's the question. can you be influential and lose and feel like that okay, because like you said. i do think the two parties would react and try to close you out almost immediately. able to fight back. >> howard, my here toty, do you that and obama gets more electoral votes. start doing the math. he could have 40%, all he needs to win. >> also -- also, the route for an independent candidate or third-party candidate seems to me, in this era of lockouts in sports and -- polarization. nobody dealing with anybody else, would be the messager of sweet, reasonableness in the middle. >> the unity. >> the unitsy. barack obama stylistically, press conference notwithstanding, hard to outreasonable the president. >> and if romney's the nominee, romney likes to be that guy, too. >> exactly. >> the question is, where do you grow that was -- the bloomberg

thing. wait. where do you go against barack obama? wheren the running -- >> it doesn't. that's why he didn't run. we could keep talking. always a response to speculate about third parties. up next, maybe sarah palin. really is a mom a grizzly? what she demanded at a book signing, next in aeb the sideshow." you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. ♪ i'd do anything for you dear ♪ anything, yes i'd do anything ♪

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for at least six weeks, you're frustrated that your depressive symptoms are still with you. seroquel xr, when added to an antidepressant, is approved for the treatment of major depressive disorder. for many, taking seroquel xr with an antidepressant was proven more effective than an antidepressant alone for treating unresolved symptoms of depression. talk to your doctor about seroquel xr. then visit seroquelxr.com for a free trial offer. call your doctor if you have unusual changes in mood, behavior, or thoughts of suicide. antidepressants can increase these in children,teens, and young adults. elderly dementia patients taking seroquel xr have an increased risk of death. call your doctor if you have fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, as these may be signs of a life-threatening reaction or if you have uncontrollable muscle movements, as these could become permanent. high blood sugar has been reported with seroquel xr and medicines like it and in extreme cases can lead to coma or death. your doctor should check for cataracts. other risks include decreases in white blood cells,

which can be fatal, seizures, increased cholesterol, weight gain, dizziness on standing, drowsiness,impaired judgment, and trouble swallowing. use caution before driving or operating machinery. for more help putting distance between you and your depression, ask your doctor about adding seroquel xr. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. back to the "sideshow." first up a two for one special. the minneapolis review reports at a wednesday book signing sarah palin fans were told they to also buy bristol's book to get the x governor's autograph. mama grizzly, you betcha.

and a college age son went to a campaign raly. the hitch, it was mitt romney's rally. this priceless shot of him reaching over to pose with the candidate. the huntsman camp says, will simply wanted to see another campaign event. he meant nos did respect. to who? his dad or mitt romney? and hundreds of new state las go into effect. july 1st. some of the most noteworthy. in virginia, dead people can vote. starting today, if someone sends in an absentee ballots and then dies before election day that vote is still good. how about that? forget that, chicago. over in maryland, have trouble leaving your dogs? the news, dogs are now allowed in restaurants with outdoor patios and tables, provided they're on a leash. good luck with that. and annapolis, bring your own shoving. starting today in new york

state, it's mandatory forral skews to opt out of dissecting frogs in biology. they can instead watch interactive films. no dodgeball, can't get your hands dirty with a frog. you've got to learn what the guts of an animal look like. but whatever. you've got to do the real thing. up next, is mitt romney flip-flopping again? talking about president obama's handling of the economy, he now says he never said that things are worse. trouble is he did, and he did it a couple of times. we'll get to romney's latest walkback and the rest of the 2012 news with our independence day panel of experts, next. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. she needs help from me. and her medication. the exelon patch -- it releases medication continuously for twenty-four hours. she uses one exelon patch daily for the treatment of mild to moderate alzheimer's symptoms. [ female announcer ] it cannot change the course of the disease. hospitalization and rarely death have been reported in patients who wore more than one patch at a time.

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good afternoon, everyone. i'm tyler mathison with your cnbc market wrap. another explosive rally heading

into the fourth of july weekend. the dow jones industrial up 16 points. s&p 500 climbing 19. nasdaq surging by 42. stronger than expected reading on u.s. manufacturing and growing optimism about a solution in that greek debt crisis. giving the markets their best week in almost two years. american factories picked up the pace in june for the first time in four months, analysts say digging down. the details are not as robust as that main figure seems to indicate. in stocks, the u.s. automakers gain and better than expected sales. and ford and gm up about 10%. chrysler 30% jump thanks to demand for its line of jeeps. the online video site whulu is courting buyers, and a restaurant more cost cutting and a overhaul. that's it for cnbc business

worldwide. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." from tim pawlenty's spin on his home state's government shutdown to mitt romney's walkback on what the obama economy has done to the economy now. we've got the very latest. our special independence day panel. "the washington post" eugene robinson and richard wolff and "usa today" susan paige. hello to you all. i want to start with the minnesota government shutdown, because it does have potentially an affect on the president's field. a former governor of minnesota by the name of tim pawlenty, yes, still running for president. susan, let me play what he said about the shutdown and why he believes he has a good story to tell on the shutdown. >> both in '05 and now you had

democrats demanding that we raise taxes and raise spending, and that's not what the people from this country need, it's not what our government finances need. we have to get government spending under control. the democrats won't do it. i encourage the republicans to keep standing strong. >> well, they had a shortfall on pawlenty's watch. good or bad? >> it do go both ways. not to be worried about it, he a shutdown in 2005 and said he stood up for his principles. >> and got reelecteded. >> then he got re-elected. on the other hand, he's like other governors, gimmicks to gets out of dodge before he had to face what minnesota is now in. so there is kind of both a defense on his part, but also some ways in which he'd be vulnerable. >> and he left a budget shortfall. he used -- those dreaded

stimulus funds. that came into all of the states last -- to plug some holes, and one of his critics, a former governor, former republican governor said, if was nothing but gimmicks and nerve der balancing there. >> it's goes to credibility. death by 1,000 cuts. >> he can't afford another flub. >> exactly. he's got that problem. he had the debate that was -- that was a disaster for him. fund-raising numbers that aren't so great. i mean, it's just -- not so great to be pawlenty. >> and another minnesota -- minnesota is pretty -- left and right. here's what michele bachmann said about this. she said i applaud minnesota republican legislators for standing up to reckless stending and higher taxes. hopefully they'll realize fiscal restraint is what is necessary

to strengthen the minnesota economy and create jobs. >> doesn't have the right record, legislative record, yet her positioning is right for where the whole fight is playing out. which is, if you want someone to stand up to the democrats, you don't go for pawlenty. the contrast makes it harder. he was initial branding, purple stay conservative. the guy to bring people together. fix the problem. be confident and here it's a mess and he's trying to pitch in on her turf, or perry or palin's turf, doesn't really square up. >> really tough for pawlenty. running for president, comes more scrutiny. play for you a sound bite. the therapist and things that he said about gay americans that is making the rounds on the internet and making people unhappy. what was said on a radio program last year, unearthed by some

democratic roots. take a listen. >> we have to understand barbarians need to be educated. they need to be disciplined and just because someone feels it or thinks it doesn't mean that we are supposed to go down that road. that's what's called the sinful nature, and we have a responsibility as parents and as authority figures not to encourage such thoughts and feelings to move into the action step. >> susan, that is the type of language that's going to make swing voters uncomfortable. they're not going to want to hear something like that. whether having the conversation about this idea of somehow as being gay is not -- is, you're not born gay. that is -- that is language that barbarians, that's rough language. >> we've seen a revolution in this country towards attitudes towards gay and lesbians, in the last couple of year, seismic

shifts in people's attitudes towards gay marriage, employment discrimination, towards gays in the military. it makes swins voters nervous, but swing republicans uncomfortable. >> and -- >> this is a terrible moment for this sort of thing to come out and if people just kind of think of that conversation taking place inside the bachmann household, for example, it's -- it's not good, and it's going to make a lot of people think twice. >> all right. we said that with success comes extra scrutiny. mitt romney had things to say about president obama and his policies, about the economy, and then he was asked about it this week. so here's what he had said about president obama and his policies, that he said had made the recession worse. >> when he took office the economy was in recession, and he made it worse. >> what this president has done

has slowed the economy. he didn't create the recession, but he made it worse, and longer. >> the president's failed. he did not cause this recession, but he made it worse. >> all right. last night an nbc producer asked if the economy was really worse than it was in 2009. this is what romney said. >> i didn't say the things are worse. what i said was, that the economy hasn't turnered around. >> richard wolff, that didn't take long to put the sound bites together. i mean, now, look, the romney campaign says, no, no, no. he thought the question was about the stock market, and the stock market indicators. that's tough, back and forth. >> for those of us who had the great, good fortune and misfortune to covered john kerry campaign, this is flashback territory. spin it anyway you like, context may be reasonable, but the take is really hard to overcome and here's the problem, which is does he believe the sound bite

or does he actually believe his economic judgment? and i suspect, really, he knows the recession ended, and that the president was there for a couple of months when the economy was -- but really, we have the sound bite. >> susan page, remember the comment about afghanistan during the debate. it feels like it's almost as if we're going to find out, well, he misspoke. well, that's -- you know, right now, this is not hurting him too much but over time, this could accumulate. >> going right to a core vulnerability for mitt romney. all the flip-flops we saw last time around on social issue. he cannot afford to be someone as changing positions. if michele bachmann said something -- >> susan page, eugene robinson, richard wolff. we're coming back. you get to say something right after the break. i promise. this is "hardball." two segment analysts. only on msnbc. part of life.

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washington post" eugene and susan and we just showed you a bunch of republican candidates not having a good week.

and not having a good month necessarily either for barack obama. a pattern. noted since 2007. since announced for president, hi summers have been politically tough on him, whether not catching fire fast enough with supporter in '07. in '08, looking to be coronated. in '10, midterms. this time, they're trying to stop, stop the summer madness here. are they going to pull it off? >> afraid it's going to get worse with the whole debt crisis. debt ceiling. his best part of the summer is when he goes away. polls rise when they get out of the way and go away. it's true. >> there is a pattern. >> his own position has got to be that he's the adult in the room. yes, he came in pretty forcefully with that with a press conference. we're moving into election season. the fact he's getting more confrontational and firing up his base is how he's got to go, but there's a cost to that.

he's trying to get back and doesn't like it. >> he said that in the debate. it's the sound bite of that press conference, the one about malia and sasha. let's hear it again. >> malia and sasha generally finish their homework a day ahead of time. malia's 13. sasha's 10. and it is impressive. they don't wait until the night before. they're not pulling all-nighters. they're -- they're 13 and 10. you know -- congress can do the same thing. if you know you've got to do something, just do it. >> susan page, the president, here he is stinging you, but it didn't feel harsh at the time, but, boy, republicans took it harshly. >> it didn't feel harsh to you, maybe. >> in a sing-song way, very calm, all this stuff.

it didn't go over well. >> do you want to get a deal or make a point? he clearly decided to score a point, not clearly decided to m point. to compare members of congress unfavorably to his daughters. and, by the way, malia is 12. >> well, he turns 13 tomorrow. >> three days before, you've got to call your kid the age they're going to be. you know that, susan. >> he's 12. >> you can't refer to her as a 12-year-old any more. i defend him on that, as a father. i get it. >> me too. >> make it hard or make a deal? >> he made it hardter make a deal. but most of what he does is deliberate. he got under their skin. you know, he needled them in a way that sounded to me deliberate. and provocative. and clearly he was appealing to the base. but i think he wanted to shake things up a bit on the hill. i think deit. the way he reacted with the --

anger. >> they feel good right now. are they going to feel good about this in two weeks? richard? >> if this -- if what it takes to get to a deal is not just the sort of tongue-lashing but the market whiplashing, the congress, no one will feel good. i think the concern inside the white house is this looks like the top vote. which is no one want to do it. market tanks 700 points. then they go, that was serious. the wall street goes, they were serious. >> they aren't making this up. >> there are no winners in that. that's why you have to apply the pressure now. no one looks good. >> with a nuclear bomb going off. susan page, eugene robinson, we are proud of you, welcome to citizenship. very good. coming up, not just the public sector that's having issues with unions and management. two sports leagues, nba and nfl are also locked out. believe it or not, there is

a-down effect from the government issues here.

>> welcome back to "hardball." is it possible that pro football and pro basketball could be dark next season after players and owners couldn't reach a deal last night? the nba decided to do what the nfl did and lock out its players. nfl did it in march. we have high unemployment. the debt ceiling threatening to

the tafrpg the economy and now the entertainment portion of our lives. executive producer of the rachel maddow show, if you read the incredible book about espb, bill wolf knows sports business as well. which is why he and i are going to rant about this for five minutes. it's millionaires and billion airs, everybody in the squeeze. but in both cases here, we have owners who are suddenly panicked about their bottom lines and looking to take more money from players, what's going on? >> it seems to me it is just an opportunity, chuck. it is a little bit of shock doctrine. they come to the end of a collective bargaining agreement. it is time to reset. there is some question about the troubles of the owners. i don't think anyone is arguing that nfl owners aren't still really profitable. they may be a little less profitable than they used to be. while the nba is reporting that it is not profitable, there is

reports that is nonsense too. they are profitable, just less profitable. i think this is the ownership recognizing they have the chance to reset the paradigm with a new collective bargaining agreement to set them up in a better position and that's what is happening. they see the next three or four years of business depends on what contracts they sign now so they are taking the hard line looking at the long-term. or the mid term bottom line. >> when it came to basketball, there used to be a way for owners to basically get cheap money. >> yes. >> they would somehow convince a major state or city that they were going to move unless they got a free arena. >> football too. football too. >> football did it as well. all of a sudden now, hello, city governments and state governments are woken up. they aren't doing this any more. owners that want new stadiums have to build it. is that part of this? suddenly their waive finding free money and being bank rolled by the state taxpayer own local tax payer is gone? >> i don't think that has to do

with the problems or the announced problems of successful or stable teams. like the boston celtics don't need a new arena, that's done. pittsburgh steelers financed about two thirds by public financing. that's done. who it hurts is a team that wants to move to a new town and is using that as their source of profit. so the sacramento kings basketball team or minnesota vikings football team. they want to move to l.a. or they want to move to, name your town, that doesn't have a team -- >> like las vegas with the sac guys. >> so the teams are unstable and looking looking to get stable by fleecing a team on, don't get me started, publicly financed stadiums. the greatest waste. money in the history of u.s. government. >> are things going in the right direction or the wrong track? we always look at it through a political prism. but i'm sorry, you look at all

there stuff and you think, boy, nothing is on the right track. not even the sports world. by the way, movies stink and tv is not the same any more. i'm mad always at journalism. this does have a psychological effect on the public, no? >> this is a bummer. a big bummer. nfl football is a ritual. it is americana. sundays around the tv with your betting slip or your fantasy team or whatever, that is-dhash occupies a huge proportion of the population. if there is no football, it really will be a huge bummer. the nba, the business of nba, i don't think benefits quite as much from the national obsession. but you're right, it's a total drag np in a right track-wrong track way of understanding things, it is a wrong track but the cardinals wept the orioles in baltimore so i'm on the right track. >> well, they wi