no idea if the strongsville police blot ter is related to the banana incident we just found on line, but regardless, banana versus gorilla. i didn't know. that does it for us today. now it's time for "the ed show." have a great night. good evening, americans, and welcome to "the ed show" tonight, live from washington, d.c. where it's all happening. democrats are standing up to president obama on the debt feeling compromise. today nancy pelosi drew a line in the sand on entitlement. here's my line to the president after seeing a dozen congressional members face to face tonight: under no circumstances should you ever cave on social security or medicare! this is "the ed show." let's get to work. >> the american people expect the president of the united states to keep his word. >> democrats are fuming today over reports that president obama is proposing cuts to

social security and medicare. today the white house is pushing back. congressman peter welch of the progressive caucus is here. >> there would have to be some serious disruptions in order not to raise it. i'm willing to do that. >> republicans are refusing to let go of the debt ceiling hostage. one of the them says, don't raise taxes on the rich, raise taxes on the poor. former rnc chief michael steele is here. and the rupert-murdoch news corporate scandal is blowing up bigger than ever. tonight on weather murdoch's phone hacking scandal could ever come to america. good to have you with us tonight, folks. president obama has democrats shocked, stunned and flat out furious after the "washington post" reported that he put social security and medicare cuts on the table. now, in d.c. tonight, i spoke to at least a dozen lawmakers.

they say that the president went behind closed doors with leadership of both parties to discuss a solution to the debt hostage crisis republicans are waging on the american people. president obama addressed the media after the meeting but didn't take any questions. here's what he had to say. >> i just completed a meeting with all the congressional leaders from both chambers, from both parties, and i have to say that i thought it was a very constructive meeting. everybody acknowledged that there is going to be pain involved politically on all sides, but our biggest obligation is to make sure that we're doing the right thing by the american people, creating an environment in which we can grow the economy and make sure that more and more people would be put back to work. >> now, before she saw the president, minority leader nancy pelosi held a contentious meeting with her caucus over the proposed entitlement cuts. democrats in the house said they felt blind-sided by the story in

the post. nancy pelosi is clearly not on board. >> we do not support cuts and benefits for social security and medicare. do not consider social security a piggy bank for giving tax cuts to the wealthiest people in our country. we are not going to balance the budget on the backs of american seniors, women and people with disabilities. >> and that is exactly what the polls are saying. independent senator bernie sanders spoke with me earlier today on our radio show. he's not happy about this, and after the radio interview, sanders went to the senate floor to deliver this very clear message to the president. >> when president obama ran for the presidency in 2008, he was a strong advocate of social security. made it very clear to the american people that he was not going to cut benefits. the american people expect the president of the united states to keep his word.

>> sanders is spot on. senator obama made this promise when he was criticizing john mccain back in september of 2008. >> but john mccain's campaign has gone even further, suggesting that the best answer for the growing pressures on social security might be the cost of living adjustments or raise the retirement age. now, let me be clear. i will not do either. >> don't you think that the democrats and liberals across this country need to hear the president say the very same thing right now? and if he doesn't, if he doesn't, there is an undercurrent in this town that he could find himself in the unemployment line. it's that big of an issue. new polling in four key swing states tell the story. over 50% of voters in ohio, missouri and montana say that they will be less likely to vote for president obama if he makes any cuts. that's any cuts to

medicare/medicaid benefits. the same holds true if the president signs off on any deal that cuts social security. president obama will never win reelection if he loses 50% of the voters in a state like ohio. now, there is really good reason -- no good reason anywhere to put entitlement cuts on the table with numbers like this. this is mind-boggling to the democratic caucus right now. i know, i spoke to a dozen of them tonight at a function here in washington. republicans. they will never take it as a tried-off for raising taxes on the rich. eric canter made that crystal clear this morning. >> i can tell you one thing, we are united as republicans to say now is not the time to raise taxes. i have talked with the speaker. he is not for increase in taxes. >> we are not for any net new revenues right now. what we want to focus on is getting people back to work

growing this economy. that's how you increase revenues in this country. >> yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a theory that's been played out before. mr. president, let's talk tonight. you can't negotiate with these people. they're not honest brokers. the bush tax cuts are a big part of the reason why we're in this financial hole. how about these endless wars that we can't get out of and the unfunded medicare prescription bill that tom delay choked americans with? mr. president, the american people, they're on your side, dude. maybe if i talk like that, just straight talk. dude, they're on your side! when it comes to protecting the big three, this isn't about solving any phoney republican crisis or building your legacy as a president or even your reelection. this is so generational and it is so big, it has been so successful for the american people for the last 70 years, why are we going here? this is about millions of people

who depend on social security to keep a roof over their head, to put food on their table. and if you go cut a deal with these folks, you will have done more damage to destroy the new deal than any republican president has ever done. now, i want all of us tonight to think about grant park on election night. think intensely for a moment about grant park, the night the president of the united states won the election. i mean, there was emotion going on, there was feeling in the crowd. i mean, if you're sitting at home watching it, it was an unbelievable television moment. the country felt great. could you in your wildest dreams, if you can remember back to that night at grant park, if the president had said, we're going to have change, and within

30 months i'm going to have social security, medicare and medicaid cuts on the table. that's how much things that changed. the lawmakers that i talked to tonight, they are stunned. this "washington post" story that came out last night, they're so uptight about this. whoever leaked that to the "washington post" in the obama administration should be fired! that's irresponsible playing with people's lives. because, you see, this is serious stuff for a lot of folks. you cut $500 out of somebody's fixed income, you're really messing with their life. and if this is some political balloon that the obama administration let go in washington, d.c. just to see how many people would look up in the sky to see if it's really true, this is a bad move. and now you've got the

democratic caucus furious, losing confidence, not sure about that guy that was at grant park. and the republicans, they're behind closed doors. we can only imagine they're saying, you know, we got 'em right where we want 'em. we have president obama and his people floating stories about putting social security, medicare and medicaid on the table for cuts. this is something george bush couldn't even do. bush couldn't get these cuts talked about. leave it to obama, he can. this is really a crossroads for a lot of liberals in this country. a real crossroads. and it is such a divided highway ahead, it could derail what president obama has accomplished because he won't win a second term. because there is going to be a lot of people who are going to go home, and they're going to

say, well, i really like the president, he's a great guy, but i can't vote for this. and losing the white house would not be a good thing. get your cell phones out, i want to know what you think. tonight's question: should democrats vote for entitlement cuts in exchange for raising taxes? text a for yes, text b for no to 622639. we'll bring you the results later on in the show. i do need two shows tonight. in fact, i need three shows tonight. and i am burning in the belly over this one. my next guest is, too. congressman peter welch, democrat of vermont, member of the caucus. am i understating this? >> you're not the master of understatement, but this could be the most serious vote that we take on domestic policy for all of those who serve under

congress. what's happening here is we have this debt crisis. we've got the debt ceiling coming up, we've got to pay our bills. the majority of the democratic caucus voted for the debt ceiling so we would pay our bills. that included, by the way, many of us who voted for it who were against the iraq war, were against credit card funding of the afghanistan war, we're against what congress voted for, americans voted for it and we have to pay our bills. >> congressional members said they met with the president a month ago and they asked him, are you going to throw us under the bus? and they're telling me tonight they were thrown under the bus. do you feel that way? >> you know what, what i'm hoping is this. when the president is talking about medicare and social security, it's about making medicare and social security strong, survivable and sustainable. and when president reagan and speaker o'neal, democrat and

republican, joined hands on social security, it was about making it stronger. it wasn't about raiding social security to cover tax cuts for the rich. so that's the real question. there is enormous anxiety. >> why are we even talking about this when you've got 80% of the american people who don't want to go down this road? >> there are two interpretations. number one, we shouldn't be doing it, because medicare should be discussed on its own terms. we have to bring down the cost of health care and that's important not only for medicare but it's important for the rest of the health care economy. but it's not about using medicare as a way to maintain tax cuts for the top 2% of americans. social security is the absolute bedrock of middle class security, and we cannot be using that as a piggy bank to pay for taxing the wealthy. >> will the president have support if he comes out with a

plan? will he get the votes? >> no, he won't. in the republican caucus, they won't take yes for an answer. they basically want to drive government into the ground. >> no doubt about that. yesterday the president had this to say about using the 14th member of the constitution to get around this debt situation. here it is. >> i don't think we should even get to the constitutional issue. congress has a responsibility to make sure we pay our bills. >> today chuck grassley, senator from iowa, actually admitted the president could use the 14th amendment of the constitution. should he do it, in your opinion? >> i don't think he should. i think congress should hold firm. i think the democrats should hold firm. we should defend social security, we should defend medicare. we shouldn't use a legalistic argument. do we believe the middle class is entitled, when they get to be 65, to access to health care that they can afford? do we believe that if you've worked hard all your life, you should have some help in your retirement when you've paid into

social security? >> but you would not advise the president to use his constitutional powers in the 14th amendment to do this? >> i would advise congress to hold firm. i would advise the democrats to hold firm. >> great to have you with us tonight from vermont, peter welch. the fact we're just a couple weeks away from america defaulting on its obligations for the first time ever rested squarely on the back of the republicans, i think. the democratic and republican senate no doubt would sign up right away for a clean up and down vote on rages the debt ceiling. i think they would do it in a heartbeat. but republicans are using the deadline as a weapon to roll back the progress of the 21st century. today one of the smartest men in america, warren buffett, called on americans for what they're doing. >> we raised it in the bush administration, and in this administration, they're holding it hostage, and you really can't

play russian roulette to get your way. when you have someone holding a gun to your head, do you come out with a proper reason for something? they're trying to use the incentive, now that we're trying to blow your brains out, america, in terms of your debtworthiness over time, and that's being used as a threat. >> joining me now is former chair of the rnc, michael steele. mr. steele, great to have you with us tonight. >> good to be here. >> is this a great day for republicans? you've got the president talking about cuts, something you folks have been after for 30 years. >> i listen to the congress and i listen to you, and i think the passion is in the right place, and i think america needs to be passionate in this debate right now. i'm glad to see the president put something on the table. now, it's upset his base. cutting social security and medicare is the same passion a lot of republicans have about raising taxes, and i think this is where we begin to get to net cutting time. let's be serious about putting it all on the table and come in with something that keeps social

security vibrant and strong but also recognize that we can't continue to spend the way we are. >> social security, according to bernie sanders today, it's not in financial trouble for 25 years. we don't have to do anything to make it solvent right now. we can do that down the road in a bit. but do you think that the republicans will actually say yes to tax increases? >> i think what you saw today, ed, was an opening for speaker boehner on this point where he talked about, let's look at those entitlement programs on the tax side with respect to, you know, the giveaways and the tax breaks and everything that's been built into the system over the last 35 years since the last time we reformed the tax system. so i think there is a beginning now, an opening. >> so you think the republicans will go for raising some taxes? >> i think the republicans will be in a position to talk about reducing or eliminating the tax breaks that are currently given to a lot of corporations -- >> do you think they'll go along

with that? >> i think ultimately they'll have to, because the reality on august 2nd and beyond is, how are you going to pay the nation's bills? how are you going to deal with the continued expenditures we already have locked in if you don't begin to address those expenditures on the front end? >> how about this conversation with congressman tim scott of florida who said republicans would impeach the president if he tried invoking the 14th amendment? >> he said it and there's a lot of that on both sides. you raised the question about the 14th amendment. the president himself has said we don't need to bring the constitutional issues -- >> that's because he wants to make a deal. >> of course he does. he's approaching it the right way. >> but you've got ron paul in the senate saying he's going to filibuster everything until he gets his way. that means cutting the big three and not raising taxes. how do you get around that? we've got 80% of the american people saying don't move on that. >> that's got to be something

mr. mcconnell and leaders of the senate will have to deal with. it's something boehner will have to deal with in his caucus in the house, and it's going to be something the president will have to deal with on the left as well. >> you know, this is the longest conversation i've had with a republican over this? you guys are wrong! you guys are is to wrong -- >> i appreciate your passion, but -- and we feel you're wrong, and that's where we come to some approach where we talk about how we solve this. >> but michael, there is 80% of the american people saying don't touch this. >> but you also have a significant number of people saying cut and stop spending. >> 20%? >> no, it's more than 20%. >> i need three shows. former analyst rnc chair michael steele. thank you so much. remember to answer the question at the bottom of the screen. i want to know what you think. in a swing state poll, voters say the rich should be taxed more with no cuts to social security, medicare and medicaid. so democrats better listen up

and later phone hacking allegations shut down a major tabloid newspaper in great britain. we'll be right back. of at&t and t-mobile would deliver our next generation mobile broadband experience to 55 million more americans, many in small towns and rural communities, giving them a new choice. we'll deliver better service, with thousands of new cell sites... for greater access to all the things you want, whenever you want them. it's the at&t network... and what's possible in here is almost impossible to say.

it's the at&t network... as political leaders battle out raising the debt ceiling, paul brown is going a different direction. brown raised a bill to lower the debt ceiling by $1.3 trillion. the plan is so off the wall, rhan paul isn't even on board. but that's not stopping brown. >> over the last decade, we've raised the debt ceiling 16 times. that hasn't worked out so well. we need to do something that is very much different and that's what my bill does. >> are you giving up a little bit on revenues, on that side, whether it's tax increases, whether it's closing loopholes, will you give up a little there? >> raising taxes is not going to do anything but put a tax on jobs, and we'll have less jobs by raising taxes. so if we do anything, we need to

lower taxes on small businesses. >> so paul brown wants to lower the debt ceiling by more than a trillion dollars, but he still won't raise taxes. these rightis are really showing where their loyalty lies, you know it? and it ain't with the middle class america. keep your home smelling like home. so i took my heartburn pill and some antacids. we're having mexican tonight, so another pill then? unless we eat later, then pill later? if i get a snack now, pill now? skip the snack, pill later... late dinner, pill now? aghh i've got heartburn in my head. [ male announcer ] stop the madness of treating frequent heartburn. it's simple with prilosec otc. one pill a day. twenty-four hours. zero heartburn. no heartburn in the first place. great.

welcome back to "the ed show "snoochlt thank you for watching tonight. don't you think the message is pretty clear, go ahead and tax the rich? that's what swing state voters are saying, and the polls show it. and they're saying no to cutting the big three, medicare, medicaid and social security. and you better listen up, democrats. according to the same poll,

cutting the big three would affect your chances at reelection. question: in order to reduce the national debt, would you support or oppose raising taxes on those with incomes over $150,000 a year? in ohio, missouri, montana and minnesota support for raising taxes ranges from 68 to 77%. it goes even higher for those making between 160 and $200,000 a year. you know what's not popular? raising social securities. medicare, 69 to 70% opposed to cutting it. medicaid, 59 to 63% opposed cutting medicaid.

and voters in those four states said that they would be less likely to vote for their senator if he or she cut social security, medicare or medicaid, and they said that they would be less likely to vote for president obama if he cut the big three. now, if you believe in polls, it's a slam dunk. let's bring in adam green, co-founder of the progressive change campaign committee, which is one of the groups that commissioned this poll. if this is true, adam, and it's great to have you with us tonight. 750,000 people are in your organization. if this news is true, what does it mean? >> well, first of all, it means that millions of people, people like my grandmother and the grandmothers of the future, will be very, very hurt, especially in this tough economy. the middle class has sacrificed enough. politically, it would be absolutely devastating for democrats. two of the biggest accomplishments of the democratic party are social security and medicare. george bush was not able to put these things on the table, and we don't need a democratic

president doing this. as your polls show, it would be really devastating to democrats in 2012 who are on the ballot if we cut medicare and social security. >> what do you want the president to do if he does show up with the plan of hitting the big three? >> we are already taking action. it's important to be honest in saying, look, president obama, if you cut medicare and social security, we're not going to vote for sarah palin in 2012, but we cannot in good faith give our money and volunteer time to your reelection campaign. that's not change we can believe in. so just recently, over 150,000 people have taken a pledge that they will withhold their grassroots support in this president if he goes down this road. there are people who gave over $10 million to this president in 2008 and over 2 million volunteer hours in 2008. >> 2 million volunteer hours. could the president win without that help? >> he could try. he seems to be going into wall street's culture at this point, but we hope he lightens up and has a people power campaign, but

that means standing strong. >> what about the democrats? they asked the president a month ago, are you going to throw us under the bus, and some feel like they've been thrown under the bus and they're at a critical moment. they've it to hold the line, haven't they? >> absolutely. the senator from rhode island, peter welch who was on before and some others are really saying, we will not take part in this hostage situation. we're not going to vote for something that's labeled a final deal by the president that the american people don't agree with. and they deserve all the credit in the world. >> these numbers are greater than the public option, which you are an advocate of. and you said, mr. president, you got to go down this road of the public option. the public is on your side. why in the world would the president even invite this to discussion when he has such massive numbers on his side? >> it's a great question, and the honest answer is that this white house is under the kind of warped strategy impression that they need to cut a deal, that they need a compromise above all else. but what they need to understand

is that the american people don't simply want a deal, they want a democratic party that is fighting for every american family. >> do you think this is a ploy by the political white house just to get everybody cranked up just to make sure they never get touched? >> that's a best case scenario. i hope it's only a trial balloon. >> how could the president not understand the severity of the damage he would do to the democratic party if he were to allow something like this to happen? >> it's a fair question. i don't know, but the damage would be done. >> constitutional move. are you for it? should the president do it on the 14th amendment? >> absolutely. any negotiation, at the end of the day, the question is, well, if nothing happens, who wins? if the debt ceiling is about to get stumbled upon currently, the republicans will win. if president obama says, you know what, i have this option. the debt ceiling is actually unconstitutional and i will exert that option, that gives him a ton of leverage in the fight, that means he can fight harder for social security.

>> peter green, great to have you on tonight. you're spot on. how you can help folks in new orleans get the care they need. one side has said social security is off the table, the other said tax increases are off the table. they both can't -- they can't both be right, okay? tonight, ed's show panel helps me figure out what side has the upper hand in the debate of the debt ceiling. stay with us.

every day you live with the pain of moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis could be another day you're living with joint damage. help stop the damage before it stops you by asking your rheumatologist about humira. for many adult patients with moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis humira has been proven to help relieve pain and stop joint damage. humira's use in patients with ra has been evaluated in multiple studies during the past 14 years. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal events can occur such as, infections, lymphoma or other types of cancer, blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure.

before starting humira, your doctor should test you for tb. ask your doctor if you live or have been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. tell your doctor if you have had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have symptoms such as fever, fatigue, cough, or sores. you should not start humira if you have any kind of infection. make today the day you talk to your rheumatologist. and ask how you can defend against and help stop further joint damage with humira.

it means so much to so many, and it's only possible with your help. i just want to remind you about the free health clinic that we've got coming up august 29th in new orleans, louisiana. once again, msnbc and "the ed show," we are teaming up with national free clinics. in the past, it's national publicity, but it has been your generosity that has helped countless americans, thousands of patients, get the help and care they needed and might not have, you know, if it hadn't been for your help. they wouldn't have gotten it otherwise. and i want you to make a donation. or to learn more about volunteering at the new orleans clinic, visit their web site at freeclinics.us. you can also text the word health to 50555 to make a $10 donation by cell phone. please help us. coming up, rupert murdoch's

meaty empire takes a hit. rocked by scandal, the news of the world jets down. what does this mean for murdoch's right wing echo chamber right here in the united states? and warren hatch commits warfare. he wants people to pay more money to commit to the national debt. [ male announcer ] introducing the ultimate business phone --

the motorola expert from sprint. its powerful tools help you work faster and smarter so you can get back to playing "angry birds." it lets you access business forms on the go,

fire off e-mails with the qwerty keypad, and work securely around the world so you can get back to playing "angry birds." it's the android-powered phone that mixes business with pleasure. so let's get our work done, america, so we can all get back to playing "angry birds." the motorola expert from sprint. trouble hearing on the phone? visit sprintrelay.com. breaking news on newscorp. the media conglomerate is shutting down its news of the world tabloid saying this sunday would be the last issue of news of the world. >> can we say with certainty that these hacking practices were limited to news of the world? >> i think that's what the market is worried about. i think that's what investors are worried about. we don't know. >> at this hour, we really don't know just how far reaching the scandal that rocked rupert murdoch's media empire will be,

but tonight the fallout continues. there will be two official inquiries into the phone hacking controversy that led to the demise of one of the planet's largest newspapers, british tabloid, the news of the world. murdoch hire apparent james murdoch pulled the plug on the 168-year-old paper earlier after more allegations surfaced. thousands of cell phones have been targeted by murdoch's deputies, including the voicemail of a 13-year-old murder victim as well as the voicemails of families of british soldiers killed in action. the paper is also accused of paying -- paying -- police for informati information for his part. rupert murdoch avoiding answering questions in idaho. what does this mean for the empire murdoch runs in this great country, the united states of america?

here to answer that question and many others is meteorologist eric bullard. great to have you. how far reaching is this? what do you think? >> it's very far reaching. murdoch was engaged in this nixonian cover-up, and it's been about as successful as the watergate cover-up. he's promoted them, in fact. now it all collapsed like a house of cards this week with this extraordinary exclusive about the murdered girl's phone being hacked, you know, it all fell apart and murdoch doesn't have anywhere to turn. he is in freefall. >> do you think he knew about this? do you think he knew about these tactics? >> i don't think anyone at newscorp has really been able to accurately suggest that this did not go to the highest levels of the company, whether it's his son, whether it's him, whether it's the publisher of the newspapers. these are all very, very

sinister people who have been touched by this and he refuses to let any of them go. he shuts down a 2 million circulation newspaper today instead of firing key executives. it's really quite extraordinary. >> eric, there are people at fox news and certainly people at the wall street journal that have been in the news business for a long time. >> yes. >> it would seem to me that maybe a writer for the "wall street journal" would unequivocally say that they've had nothing to do with any of this kind of stuff. are they at that point right now? do they have a credibility problem with the american people? >> i think fox news has a credibility problem with the american people, i think the "wall street journal" does not. tell you how far this goes, the publisher of the "wall street journal" used to run murdoch's newspaper when this rampant hacking was going on, and then murdoch tapped this publisher to

oversee a hacking two years ago. they said, we're clean, we don't see evidence of any wrongdoing, and now he's awarded as president of the "wall street journal." he overturned one of the biggest hacking problems ever or he was trying to cover something up. this is happening throughout the newscorp company now. >> british police say they're going to arrest former "news of the world" editor who also worked for the prime minister. "fox news" has had ties to previous white houses. should americans be concerned about the relationship "fox news" has with the right wing? >> absolutely. >> do you really think this is happening in the united states? >> i don't think this is happening in the united states. this is more of a fleet street culture in london. they do play much faster and looser with the rules, even more

than fox news does. this is how murdoch plays the game. there are no rules. we make them up as we go along. watch fox news for 24 hours. do you think anyone on that cable network thinks rules apply to them? we make rules as we go along and to heck with anyone else. in london, they obviously took it far beyond what anyone thought imaginable, but again, murdoch could have dealt with this years ago. he refused to, he tried to cover it up, and like nixon, it's all collapsed. >> what do you think rupert murdoch's next move will be? >> they shut down the newspaper. they hope that will be it, but frankly, the cynics say he was going to brand this, anyway, he's just saving some money. there will be future investigation and there might be more arrests. this is a total disaster. >> they've launched a campaign against "media matters." what about your phone? eric bullard, good to have you

with us tonight. thanks so much. stomp senator orren hatch is trying to squeeze every penny out of america's working poor. but he's condemning obama for wanting to raise the tax on millionaires. accounts, so your money can move as fast as you do. check out your portfolio, track the market with live updates. and execute trades anywhere and anytime the inspiration hits you. even deposit checks right from your phone. just take a picture, hit deposit and you're done. open an account today and put schwab mobile to work for you. you can do this... get the ball. get the ball, girl. hmmm, you can't do that. but you can do this. it's the simple things. scientifically formulated bengay pain relief + massage with penetrating nubs gives you the targeted relief of a massage

plus the powerful, long-lasting pain relief of bengay. bengay pain relief + massage. visit bengay.com/relief for a $3.00 coupon. love the nubs! don't forget to answer tonight's text question: should democrats vote for entitlement cuts in exchange for raising taxes? text a for yes, text b for no to 622639, and you could always go to ed.msnbc.com. results coming up. executive pay is soaring while average wages have gone down, but utah senator orren hatch thinks it's the ceos who are being treated unfairly, and he says he's had enough of shared sacrifice. i think the senator needs to go back to kindergarten and learn the value of sharing. hatch in the zone, next. ng drive the future of business.

in here, inventory can be taught to learn. ♪ machines have a voice. ♪ medical history follows you. it's the at&t network -- a network of possibilities... committed to delivering the most advanced mobile broadband experience to help move business... forward. ♪

they're pulling their weight in this economy. this week the senate started debating a resolution about raising taxes on millionaires and billionaires but republicans like hatch are still defending the top 1%ers. >> i get a little tired of hearing the obama approach toward shared sacrifice. the top 1% in the so-called wealthy pay 37% of all so-called income tax. the other side just spends and spends and spends and they want to tax and tax and tax so they can spend some more. my gosh, when are we going to wake up in this country and realize they're spending us into o oblivion? i hear how they're still caring for the poor and so forth. the poor need jobs, and they also need to share some of the responsibility. >> what planet is this guy

living on? a couple years ago, taxpayers bailed out those top 1%ers but they've been left out of the economy. they have accounted for 88% growth in this country. only 1% income growth went to wages, senator. in fact, average wages in america have actually gone down since 2009, senator. meanwhile, the top 1% is raking it in. executives at the largest u.s. companies got an average pay raise of 23% last year. but somehow orren hatch doesn't think those folks are getting a fair shake. he wants to keep bleeding the working folks of america day by day. for senator hatch to say poor people should do more to pay off the national debt while he opposes tax increases for millionaires is out of touch elitist psychotalk. if president obama okays a

deal that puts medicare and social security on the chopping block, he is guaranteeing a loss in 2012, according to some democrats. we try to figure out some of the president's end game to this debt ceiling deal. stay with us. [ male announcer ] if you think "heroes" are only in movies, consider this: over 70% of firefighters are local volunteers... these are our neighbors putting their lives on the line. and when they rely on a battery, there are firefighters everywhere who trust duracell. and now you can join with duracell to help. just buy specially-marked packs & duracell will make

a battery donation to local volunteers. these days don't we all need someone to trust...? duracell. trusted everywhere.

on one hand you have the lefties of america who is the president will live to regret it if he offers up medicare and social security cuts to republicans. on the other hand, you have tea party republicans who say that the gop must reject any tax increases to reduce the deficit. amy holmes and lauren flanders join me here to duke it out verbally, i might add, to get conclusions. stay with us. [ female announcer ] need help keeping your digestive balance? align can help. only align has bifantis, a patented probiotic that naturally helps maintain your digestive balance.

try align to help retain a balanced digestive system. try the #1 gastroenterologist recommended probiotic. align.

and finally tonight the debt ceiling debate has left both liberals and conservatives questioning the behavior of party leaders here in washington. earlier tonight, this is what congressman peter welch had to say about his fellow democrats' reaction to any deal that included social security cuts. >> social security is the absolute bedrock of middle class security, and we cannot be using that as a piggy bank to pay for taxes for the wealthy. >> will the president have democratic support if he comes out with a plan that cuts the big three in any way, shape or form? will he get the votes? >> no, he won't. >> so how are the liberals reacting to the idea that the

democratic president might sacrifice the bedrock ideas to get this deal? and how do americans feel about how the republicans are forcing his hand to play with the economy? laura flanders is the host of grit tv and free speech tv as well as host of grit radio. and amy holmes is the co-host of america's radio news. great to have both of you with us tonight. all right. you're a conservative, amy. >> yes, i am. >> what's a good deal? what is a good deal here? >> i think a good deal is one that leaves our government spending less, because as we all know, we can pay down our credit card, but if we haven't changed our patterns of spending, we'll run them right back up. but we know from roiters reporting today that the white house is out 2 trillion, 3 trillion, 4 trillion. i think we want to watch it ride out the fiscal sobriety. >> laura, what's your opinion?

>> you heard them this evening, they said this is the fight of their lives for democrats. i think it's not about a deal, it's about gaining some strength in that fight, about showing some fight if you're a democratic leader. it's a kind of false equivalency, i think. the tea partiers and the quote, unquote, liberal left. the numbers you've been putting out all evening show that the entire country is ready for a defense of the big three, and it's that that i think is at stake. so we can talk about deals, but really, we need to be talking about people, and it's not just the far left and tea party issues that's getting played out here. >> now, it might surprise you that the president said something today i agree with, that this is something to politically hurt both parties if they do the right thing. >> he used the word pain. why is there going to be pain if -- >> you look closer at that polling data, you see the majority of people don't want to raise the debt ceiling limit at

all, and when you look at social security, they want reform, but they don't want their social security check to be affected, they don't want their retirement age to go up, so both sides have to come together and make some politically tough decisions in order to get these retirement programs in full swing. >> this is not the first time barack obama has blinked on his base and the issues nobody cares about. there is a feeling of exactly what the president needs to get reelected in 2012, but it is beyond blinking. it is simply putting a closed eye to the real pain that they're feeling. this has not been shared pain, and the conversation we should be having is about who is living high on the hog in this economy and half the billionaires you talk to these days, not those in the tea party, but the others, warren buffett, you talked to him recently, are for seeing their own share of quote, unquote, pain. >> disposable income is shrinking for middle class

families. that's one of the reasons we're in this, quote, new normal. people can't move the economy and you have almost 10% unemployment. >> i agree with that, but i don't see how corporate jet taxes are really part of that equation. you could confiscate every corporate jet in america and you wouldn't get anywhere close to closing this deficit. that kind of war rhetoric is not what's going to turn this ship around. >> it's american rhetoric about how do we advance this country as a whole? the only reason we're in this problem is that our revenues have been shrinking, and what will be required to turn that around is to put more people back to work. this is a time for spending more american fairness and it's a time for spreading the pain where it hasn't been felt, which is at the top. >> here's where we are. the republicans are saying no tax increases. the democrats, and i've talked to a lot of them tonight here in washington, they're saying there is no way in hell they're going to vote for something that is going to chip away at the big three. so what's the end game? >> as you heard eric,

republicans could put on the table closing those tax loopholes. so one tax loophole for one person is -- that big money is going to come from retirement programs. those are social welfare programs in the middle class -- >> social welfare? people pay into those. >> social security is no cause of the deficit. it should not be raised to solve something it didn't cause, that's clear. if we're going to get into the minutia, we need to remember what people are dealing with in this country. i have a very close friend that retired this month. she was earning at the end of the day taking home $300 a week. she is going to be bringing in about 500-something a month on benefits. when they talk about change in the calculus, we're talking about that kind of money being lost to those people, and that hurts. >> i said earlier tonight in

this program, remember grant park? that emotional scene when president obama won election in 2008? what if the president, laura flanders, has said, i'm going to give you some real change. in 30 months i'm going to be talking about going for the big three? would things have changed? what about that? >> i would only add one thing, and that's there are still some days to go here before the final floor hits on this debt ceiling. and i think there is a chance for the democratic leadership still to really shame the republicans who are holding that gun to this country's head. there is a lot of discomfort about that, even in republicans. >> to make obama supporters really angry, what if he told them he was going to keep those bush tax cuts for every level? >> there you go. no health care, bush tax cuts. he's done some good things, too. he cannot budge on this one. >> he's got the progressive caucus making a pledge, he's got the national nurses united