all right. time for a couple e-mails, rob. what do you got? >> my wife caught me cheating and locked me out. >> okay. >> yeah. >> any other yeah. todd writes, indian summer. i got so many mosquito bites. >> there it is. that's more like it. that's the spirit of our show. the first one sounds a little too heavy. new demo, rob. people with mosquito bites. that's who watches our show. "morning joe" starts now. ♪ you know i love you >> rick perry is a christian. he is an evangelical christian, a follower of jesus christ. mitt romney is a good, moral person, but he's not a christian. mormonism is not christianity. it has always been considered a cult by the main stream of christianity, so it's a difference between a christian and nonchristian. >> the fact that, you know, some moron can stand up and make a comment like that, first of all, it's outrageous.

second of all, the fact that we are spending so much time discussing it makes it even worse. >> this is why -- >> i like jon huntsman. >> i like jon huntsman. i need more of that. >> exactly. >> that we just saw. bring it on. good morning, everybody. it's tuesday, october 11th. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset we have the columnist for the "new york times" and president of the council on foreign relations richard hoss. in washington, washington anchor for bbc world news america, katty kay. good to have you with us. i love jon huntsman. >> you can say it again. i love that. that's the side of him the guy should show. >> you call someone who acts like a moron a moron. and you say it. you just go there. >> there is no doubt about it. you look at the flurry of polls that are coming out today that we're going to be showing today and it just illustrates that

this type of politics does not work. i've said it time and time again and offended michele bachmann supporters and sarah palin supporters. >> right. >> and glenn beck viewers, but the fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, rick perry's type of politics doesn't go national. richard, this is one more example of one of his supporters coming out and judging other people as unworthy of being christian and unworthy of being president, presidential. and rick perry not backing away from that supporter. >> one of several moments during the republican campaign season where there's been excess. during the debates for example when the people booed the gay servicemen. people cheered the executions. it would have been very interesting if jon huntsman or anyone else called the audience out on it and said that's not who we are. that is not what americans are. it would have been the sort of thing he did yesterday but in front of a republican crowd.

i'm curious what would have been the political fallout of that. my hunch is not bad. >> it would have been great. 1992 bill clinton was trying to prove that he wasn't a left wing, dyed in the wool liberal, and he had what -- there have been so many opportunities in this campaign for one republican to stand up and call out bad behavior. i'm glad to see jon huntsman doing it. >> right. >> it would be so much more dramatic if somebody did it on the stage when it happened and told the audience if you think cheering on the possible death of a young man who doesn't have insurance is going to win you an election, get you closer to the white house, you're in the wrong country. you are in the wrong country because that is not america. >> here is the break. we may say it shouldn't be who they are but i'm not exactly

sure that it's not who that audience is. if you look at -- >> it may be who that audience is but that is not who the republican party is and -- >> we're going into iowa in less than three months. if you look at the caucuses from the last go-round romney had a great ground game. he spent a lot of time and money there. >> right. >> 60% of those people were evangelical christians. romney lost the evangelical vote. he only got 19% of that vote. he won the nonevangelical vote. he is running against a southern baptist preacher. come on. >> what i'm telling you is when those people show up at the polls right now they're scheduled to show up january 3rd. >> but don't mix people that boo in the audience a gay serviceman or cheer the possible death of a young man without insurance with all, quote, evangelicals. >> i'm not mixing that at all. what i'm saying is people on that stage -- sounded like you were.

let me clarify. people on that stage do not want to alienate anyone and they are going really hard at that vote. so every time you see a republican debate. >> right. >> everybody is talking about how many kids they have. i, you know, all sorts of value issues. i am for -- not for abortion in any -- i mean, it's really going straight at the social value issues. so for you to say that maybe, you know, we don't complete the two i very much think you can complete the two. >> this happens every four years. what happens is you have people out on the far right. they get a lot of press coverage early on and at the end of the day, i've written about it and it is a reality and is happening again and i knew it would when everybody said sarah palin was going to be the nominee last fall i wrote a column saying this isn't going to happen. when bachmann won her primary, her straw vote, everybody said michele bachmann has a chance. i said no she doesn't. she will not win.

when rick perry came into the race and everybody said this is a giant killer. no, no. we are the party for better or worse that does pick the ronald reagans. there's been governor for eight years. pick the bob doles, gerald fords, that pick the john mccains, that pick the george w. bushes. we don't take chances. we don't elect state senators that have only been in washington for a couple weeks. and it's not going to happen again this year. that's why somebody like rick perry can talk about shooting coyotes in the face all he wants and maybe that works in west texas. it's not going to work in the suburbs of philadelphia. >> it also makes for a very good political piece though shooting coyotes in the face. >> we'll talk about that later. let's do news. >> we're going to get to the polls because i think what joe is talking about is so interesting because it's almost like an interesting exercise in understanding the american electorate and almost as much as i like what jon huntsman did by

calling perry a moron or the pastor a moron, was your piece. >> nice. sweet. >> let me just explain something. >> let's have some tea. >> it's one thing for you or you or you or me to talk about what it's like to be in the south. you lived there. you went to church, bible school, sunday school. >> it didn't take. >> church supper. you know these people. >> right. >> and these candidates all of them didn't jump on it. didn't jump on what you knew straight ahead. you say herman cain, michele bachmann, and perry all exercised their right to remain silent in the face of jeffress' outrageous statement. what courage. but what's new? for years now gop leaders have sat silent as extremists called political rivals everything from nazi to racist to marxist. now we can add cultist to the gop lexicon. show some courage, governor

perry. stand up to a powerful supporter because sometimes being tough requires more of a man than shooting a coyote in the face. he could have done it. he could have done it right then and there but it wasn't in his head. why? >> willie, we've seen it. we've seen the name calling nonstop since president obama was elected president. and maybe that helps in off-year elections. but i've seen it, richard, i know you've seen it. that loses presidential elections. >> why do they think it wins early? >> it may get you attention in iowa but loses in the long run time and time again. >> charles is right. they're scared of offending anyone. rick perry was asked point blank by a reporter do you think the president loves america? well you'd have to ask him. everyone is afraid to say. >> that is just so idiotic. >> to just come out and say -- i think rick perry believes president obama loves america somewhere deep in his heart but he is afraid to say it. >> why? >> because he feels he'll be viewed by people on the right as

being in bed somehow with president obama or supporting his policies simply by saying that the president of the united states loves his country. >> that is the thing chris christie had. it wasn't just standing up to unions. if you ask chris christie does the president love america? of course the president loves america. but he was strong enough to carry that off. and just tell the truth and not sit there -- he didn't worry about what somebody was going to say, richard. of course the president -- he selected a muslim as a judge and the year of the ground zero muslim community center controversy. and guess what? it showed his strength. and, yes, even republicans in middle america in the midwest, in the southwest, across america, would look and go, you know what? i respect the guy's courage. >> what you have are a lot of candidates playing not to lose and everyone is playing it safe. the sports equivalent would be

instead of playing it to win, instead of taking risks they are playing to the gallery which is a very narrow base. i think it will be interesting again, a political market test. the first candidate to do exactly what you're saying, to do what jon huntsman did yesterday in the interview but do it on a larger stage and to see what happens and whether they get politically penalized or rewarded for it. that will tell us something about where the republican party is and where the country is. the same thing with these protests down on wall street. these people don't have a serious agenda. when will people stand up and essentially say that? you saw it today in the "new york times." david brooks takes them on intellectually and frontally in a really powerful piece saying these people are radical. they're not serious. so again, on both sides of the political spectrum you see everyone playing it safe, scared to confront people in either end zone and they have to start doing it. >> how can you say they don't have a serious agenda? i don't agree with that at all. there is a very serious agenda, which is to highlight incoming equality in this country, to highlight the degree to which wall street has not played fair,

to highlight the degree to which we as a government have not held wall street accountable and i don't see how you can say that's not a serious agenda. >> if you think you can fix what ails this country by going after a tiny slice of america, by going after wall street, ignoring entitlements, ignoring education, ignoring the basics of what's wrong with american society from infrastructure to all else, you are kidding yourself. this is a distraction. >> not ignoring, not distracting. that is too far. >> we turn the page because i don't think anyone at this table disagrees that guy jeffress is a moron. >> by the way, we'll continue this conversation in must reads. >> okay. republican presidential hopefuls head to new hampshire tonight to square off in a debate at dartmouth college sponsored by bloomberg news and "the washington post." it is the fifth debate for the candidates but the first to put the sole focus on the economy. >> you spent sometime at dartmouth didn't you? >> hanover, new hampshire. it's beautiful. i love it there. it comes as "the washington

post" this morning declares there is much at stake for perry in the debate. tonight's debate will be critical for the texas governor as his recent poll numbers continue to decline. the post attributes perry's drop to a series of unsteady debate performances last month. the latest disappointing numbers for perry come in the latest nbc news/maris poll where the governor has only 6% support among new hampshire primary voters. mitt romney leads the group in the granite state with 44% followed by herman cain and distant second with 13%. and in iowa -- >> that has to be different. romney can't win iowa. >> the same polls show romney leading with a 23% support among likely caucus goers. herman cain close second. 20% followed by perry at 11%. >> freeze that poll for one second. willie geist, we saw this in real time. people immediately deciding a month ago that iowa was going to

be a smackdown between texas governor rick perry and minnesota congresswoman michele bachmann. they're both stuck at 10% and they could turn it around but look how quickly that type of politics doesn't, you know, that turns on you. >> it is remarkable. if you look at that, the path to victory laid out by perry supporters early on was, well, he wins iowa. maybe he concedes romney, concedes new hampshire to romney and comes back and wins south carolina. he is 10 points, 15 points behind even mitt romney in iowa. >> yeah, you know, the exciting thing about that poll is it shows how much things can change. it was only what, two or three weeks ago that we were all nominating rick perry as the front runner and the guy that was going to steam through iowa but it also shows, and i think this is what is really interesting, that performance matters. and that people are watching around the country. i mean, we all get a little cynical and think, well, who is tuning into these debates and paying attention to some of the policy details? but it suggests that people are

tuning in and they are looking for answers and not hearing them from rick perry even in iowa where he does have to do well. if he doesn't do well there then it's hard to see how he continues on with any meaningful force. you know, it gets a little bit back to what you were talking about just now about this idea of just how angry is the republican party? we keep hearing an awful lot about it and the primary season will show us some of the answer about that. but i do believe there is a strong middle still in this country. the problem is the middle is silent. and the middle does need to speak up in the way that jon huntsman just has done. they need to speak up more forcefully. we've got into this situation where every time there is a debate the candidates who are more centrist are almost the most scared about standing up and saying what they really believe in face of some of the attacks that we've seen on those stages. >> how angry is the republican party you ask? the republican party is so angry that mitt romney is ahead in

iowa. >> let's take a look at the latest gallup national poll. >> that is how angry my republican party is. and again, so much of this garbage, and we've been saying it, i've been saying it for six months, while people have been calling me a rhino. >> right. >> so much of this. >> you've been called awful names. >> is sound and fury signifying nothing. just because i see this coming six months or a year ahead of time from a lot of people on the right, doesn't mean they should call me awful, awful names. >> well, it's difficult. >> it's painful being right all the time. i'm sorry. go ahead. >> we know you're always right, joe. >> it is a burden. >> listen, here's what is interesting in this scenario, though. say mitt romney takes the nomination and we also see those polls suggesting that he doesn't have a huge amount of support amongst the republican party, kind of a hold your nose type nomination process. >> right. >> what happens to the tea party then? do you think they rally behind him and give him their full endorsement? >> no.

i don't think so. again, you can overlay what happened, overlay what happened in '92 through '96 with what's happened from '08 to 2012. what happens to the tea party? the same thing that happened to united we stand going into '96. maybe they find their pat buchanan. maybe they move off in another direction. maybe the bill clinton of 2012 wins again. this has happened before. it will happen again. the rage that fueled united we stand in 1994, mika, is so similar to what happened with the tea party, and i agree ideologically on the small government side. but this has happened before and will happen again. >> interesting dynamics in the way they're setting up the debate tonight. herman cain is just about tied for the lead with mitt romney. >> that ain't going to hold up. i don't want to offend anybody. that ain't going to hold up.

>> okay. as cain surges in the polls -- >> why is herman cain not going to hold up? >> i really don't want to hear it. >> i will tell you for the same reason that michele bachmann didn't hold up, for the same reason i knew rick perry's lead wasn't going to hold up for the same reason i knew last year sarah palin wasn't going to make it. because herman cain may be very good at making pizza but serious voters once this process moves along, maybe they reward him in iowa. he's not going to win new hampshire. just like michele bachmann is not going to win new hampshire. just like perry is not going to win new hampshire. as this thing roars south and then goes back north to the midwest these candidates always lose. they always lose. because voters at the end of the day as katty said are serious. at the end of the day they believe performance matters. >> they're not excited at all by any of these candidates, right? >> no. >> so at this point in the

election in 2007, 1999, 1995, half of people could make at least a front runner on the republican side. only about a quarter can even name -- >> voters weren't excited about bob dole in '96. he lost they weren't excited about john mccain -- >> at least they could name a front runner. >> i don't think the real issue is the extremism of the tea party. let me suggest the real issue is whether the mitt romneys and others ultimately adopted an agenda which says we can't have any new taxes. the real debate in the republican party is not between 90% of the party and the tea party. i actually think the real debate is between what you might call establishment republicanism, republicanism in many ways of reagan and bush the father and now the new republicanism which you're seeing on the hill. the real question is what will the republican nominee stand for particularly in domestic policy? he going to toe the line and say no new taxes of any sort no matter what? smaller government no matter what?

is that going to become the new republicanism or is it going to be something more traditional and centrist? i actually think that is a bigger question than whether the tea party dominates. it is ultimately which party does mitt romney who is the likely nominee or whoever else, which party does he ultimately embrace? >> one other thing to point out tonight. we've been talking about rick perry's style. there is a front page piece in "the wall street journal" not the "new york times" which begins to shoot holes in the texas miracle which has been the center piece of rick perry's campaign saying he created all these jobs since he became governor. it's a big kind of expose piece that goes through line by line one of the groups texas enterprise fund and how the jobs were created and double counting of some jobs. when "the wall street journal" is going after his jobs record he might have a problem. >> that's rough. >> okay. we'll continue after the break with more on this but elizabeth warren raised over $3 million in the third quarter and in an e-mail to her supporters claims 96% of her contributions were for $100 or less.

>> holy cow. that's big. in the "new york times", we've got richard here and i want to talk about the report that says our afghan allies are systematically torturing -- >> this is a horrific story. >> the people we are fighting for are systematically torturing captives. that is the lead story in "the times." we need to get to that. also, libya, also, reports it's a lot harder to depose gadhafi and his supporters than we thought. >> and egypt shows after you depose it is a lot harder to get things right than people thought. the arab spring is running into rough moments. >> no doubt. >> coming up we'll bring in former new york governor george pataki. also charlie rose will be on the show today isn't he moderating the debate tonight? >> yes he is. "the washington post" columnist eugene robinson and former dnc chair howard dean. after the break politico's top stories of the morning. first to bill karins for a check on the forecast. good morning everyone. what a beautiful day yesterday

throughout much of the great lakes, midwest. all the way through the eastern seaboard with the exception of the southeast. we were at 85 to about 81 degrees all through the huge urban corridor. that was probably the warmest day until next spring. temperatures are down today. clouds are increasing. around d.c. is the only spot you need your umbrella. so if you're d.c. southward through virginia the chance is down in the carolinas. everybody else is dry today. all of that rain around south carolina, north carolina, and even atlanta will deal with showers today. forecast in the middle of the country looks dry and pretty nice. if you're traveling to chicago today or minneapolis, pretty mild for your standards. mid 70s. by the way, that rain down in the southeast is coming up to the northeast for your wednesday. you're watching "morning joe." brewed by star buck. so benny, i'm proud of you. welcome to the 21st century. thank you very much.

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a new study found global warming could cause a shortage of wine. which explains why today kathie lee and hoda installed solar panels on the roof of 30 rock. they're drinking screw drivers and using screw drivers. using a hammer and getting hammered. yeah. >> welcome back. 25 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papers. here's one from the parade of papers. the sarasota herald tribune says an outcry from angry customers has prompted netflix to abandon plans to separate its dvd by mail service from its online streaming business. >> boy, that ended very quickly didn't it? >> the company stock has lost almost two-thirds of its value since announcing the price increase three months ago. great story from "the washington post." >> that's right. one woman's decision to run in the chicago marathon is sparking an interesting health debate. 27-year-old amber miller of

chicago entered the marathon this past weekend despite being 39 weeks' pregnant. she says she felt contractions about halfway through the race so she walked the rest of the way. she made it to the finish line and gave birth hours later. she says her doctor gave her permission to do a half marathon and word is that mom and baby are apparently doing fine other than the fact that baby has to grow up with a mother that has that type of judgment. >> no. >> i read this story to my wife last night and she screamed in outrage. who is the doctor who said this was okay? >> seriously. doctor cleared it. >> but 50% of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class. >> mika's doctor, you ran five miles the day that you had amelia. >> to bring it on. >> that wasn't 26 though. >> no, it's not 26 but it certainly helps move things along. >> the baby is healthy. mother is crazy.

i don't know. >> what do you think, when women are pregnant they just sit there? >> well, on the day you have babies? >> this is good. a woman is touching off a conversation. i think she is starting a really good conversation about what's possible during pregnancy and sitting around is the last thing you should be doing. >> i don't know. i'm a big pleefr in sitting around. it's worked for me very well. look at this. it works. >> i went running. okay? okay. the kids on the school bus called me a cow. >> there is jim. good morning. >> good morning. >> the massachusetts democratic senate candidate elizabeth warren releasing some pretty impressive fund raising numbers. how much? >> she raised over $3 million in a very short period of time and did it from a lot of small donors in her state, raised more than scott brown in that quarter. and i think it's just more evidence how serious she is as a candidate in that race.

you know, the latest poll had it essentially a dead heat and it is obviously one of the most interesting senate races on the map right now. it has national significance because republicans i think have a legitimate chance at recapturing the senate if you look at the seats in play in 2012. and to do that they really need to hold the seats that they have. most importantly that scott brown seat which is extremely difficult for republicans to hold given the democratic nature of massachusetts. >> we've heard about this cluster of democrats who are going to be running for this seat. is it really about warren and scott brown or is she going to have to fight off more challengers? >> it certainly seems like it's all about her when you have that kind of money and support, those kind of poll numbers. it makes it easy for the party to coalesce around you as the candidate. >> let's talk about scott brown for a second. he's down, i think, what most political observers, mike barnacle says he has done everything right that a republican candidate could do. he's a moderate by republican

standards. he works around the clock. but he could run the table. he could do everything right and still lose this race couldn't he? >> well, again, you have to deal with the reality that you live in massachusetts, an extremely liberal state. he ran and won that seat in a really awful period for democrats. you had the aftermath of the health care debate, independents very unsettled with the direction of the democratic party, and he was able to beat a weaker candidate. now he goes into this in an environment that is always going to be hostile to republicans. like you said, he does the right things. he behaves as moderate as you can in the modern republican party. he does the things that you have to do to survive in the northeast. the question is, is it enough? a lot of regimes are increasingly worried it might not be enough which makes that road to winning back the senate all the more difficult. >> it is also important to remember i always talk about the vote is depressed, it is easier for republicans to win those

years but his case, it was a special election in january. right. >> where the turnout was minimal. i'm not saying scott brown can't win. i am just saying, boy. 2012 when president obama's on that ballot is going to be a lot different than january of '09. >> and elizabeth warren with an impressive early rollout. thanks so much. >> a good candidate. >> right. still ahead the detroit lions looking to stay undefeated. >> unbelievable story. >> boy they look good. we'll show you how they did it on monday night football. plus an extra inning walk off grand slam. you don't see that every day. tigers and rangers in the alcs.

34 past the hour. a live look at new york city before the sun comes up this morning. welcome back to "morning joe." a quick look at the news. there is a disturbing new report about the treatment of detainees in afghanistan to tell you about this morning. it's on the cover of today's "new york times" and it says that the u.n. has discovered

evidence of systematic torture in afghanistan at sites run by the national police and domestic intelligence agency. the 74-page report finding, quote, compelling evidence that nearly half of all the detainees interviewed by the u.n. experienced interrogation techniques that are considered torture. they include beatings with electric cables, wires, and sticks, electric shock, and hanging subjects by their wrists from the wall or ceiling. the report says the techniques were used at facilities throughout afghanistan and in some instances on children under the age of 18. a pentagon official says the u.s. is reviewing the allegations. >> richard, this is the government that young americans are fighting and dying for. one more bit of evidence that we are in the wrong war after a decade.

>> after all the training we've given them that something like this can still happen tells you something. it is something we constantly ignored. we ignored it in vietnam, iraq, afghanistan. local realities count. local culture, political culture, traditions count. the idea we're going to transform afghanistan into something we want to see in our eyes, democratic, tolerant, and the rest, is not going to happen. >> never. >> in "time" magazine you talked about the costly transition we've talked about around this table for sometime, trying to defeat al qaeda was a worthy goal at the beginning but that has transformed over time, under bush and now under obama into nation building. >> absolutely. we succeeded in essentially ridding afghanistan of all al qaeda very quickly after 2001 but we had mission -- we decided to do something much more ambitious and doing ambitious things in places like afghanistan history suggests is a mistake. >> no doubt about it. richard, you wrote in "time" magazine this.

afghanistan, end game in the grave yard of 'em pyres. former secretary of defense robert gates was on to something when he stated that any of his successors who advise the president to again send a big american land army into asia or the middle east or africa should have his head examined. it is not just that it promises to be too costly. it is also that the prospects for success are too small. as you just said, richard, local realities matter. nothing is more difficult than remaking another society except in the rarest cases. we should confine nation building to here at home where it is sorely needed. and it's what you and barnacle and mika and willie and i have been saying around this set for a very long time. >> you're also beginning to see it in the political space. i think there is an understanding that what we did in iraq and afghanistan cannot become a template for the future of american foreign policy. it is simply unsustainable. we have to act smarter abroad in

part so we can fix what is ailing here at home. >> a number of republicans feel this way and don't feel they can say it yet. >> they need to though. >> they're beginning to. time to take a look at sports with willie geist. >> the entirety of the coming nba season is now officially in doubt. yesterday, actually late last night commissioner david stern canceled the first two weeks of the season after players and owners failed to produce a new labor deal. commissioner stern telling reporters the two sides are, quote, very far apart. >> i say that we tried awfully hard. in our view concession after concession. in this economy at this time with what's going on in this country and the world, i think i'm proud of my owners. they've really demonstrated to me, to the fans, to all the people that work in the buildings that they tried to make it work. >> all the questions in this controversy and this lockout are about money. both sides drawing lines in the sand over luxury tax, things like that but it's really about sharing the league's almost $4

billion in revenue. under the previous agreement the players got 57% of revenues. the league says that deal is now unsustainable. david stern claims 22 of the 30 teams lost money last season. that totals 300 million bucks. the players union disputes that. the new talks, the owners' proposal knocking down players' share with 47%. players have countered with 53%. some players took to twitter to comment yesterday lebron james issuing an apology saying i want to sincerely say sorry to all of the fans. it is a sad day to all of us especially you guys. there is no us without you. his teammate dwayne wade also went on twitter. this is about money, about splitting up a giant $4 billion pie and they can't find the middle ground. >> isn't that something. in these days where people are struggling to find a job, many have given up finding a job, you've got millionaire players fighting billionaire owners saying there's not enough money in the pot for them? it's embarrassing.

first the nfl now the nba. talk about disconnected from reality. >> this means the knicks will go undefeated the first two weeks of the season. >> oh, boy. >> that is good. >> true. >> that's important. >> two weeks is only the beginning. you'll see more of this. remember last time there was a lockout 12 or 13 years ago they played 50 games. it was a meaningless season. the nba has great momentum right now. they had a great playoffs, big revenue, big ratings on tv. they're making a terrible mistake here. >> how bad does this look though? let's go to somebody that really is detached because she hates sports. mika, seriously, how strange does this look? millionaire ball players. >> yeah, yeah. >> fighting billionaire owners. >> seriously. look at the big narrative of this show and the conversations we have about the divide. this is disgusting. >> how about occupying madison square garden? >> exactly. perfect. >> the players, if they give up now they'll lose tons of money

going forward and i think if any of us were in negotiation we'd probably fight. >> willie? tell joe how i did the boards the other day and then tell us about the lions. >> she was incredible. she carried us last thursday through the entire sportscast. let's do monday night football. lions putting their undefeated record on the line at home against the bears, second quarter no score. matt staffer shot downfield to calvin johnson who is an unbelievable talent. 73-yard touchdown pass. league leading ninth touchdown of the season, the most in five games since 1940. let's get back to the third. the running back blows the game open. # 8-yard touchdown. look at the wheels on best. 163 yards last night. lions beat the bears, 24-13. yes, detroit is now 5-0 for the first time since 1956. >> unbelievable. this team did not win three years ago. >> here is the deal. this is not a fluke. they are talented. great young quarterback calvin johnson as great receiver, good defense. this team is for real. as peter king told us and we laughed two months ago.

he was right. >> how exciting. can they beat the packers? >> maybe not. >> rock 'n roll. maybe at home. >> i'm looking forward to thanksgiving football for once. >> detroit also playing baseball yesterday not doing quite as well as the lions did. already dune game to the rangers in the alcs. this is game two in texas. nelson cruz in the seventh ties the game wup a solo home run. same score in the ninth. detroit bases loaded. two outs. victor martinez pops up. nice catch by andrews. bobbles it. traps it against his body. a huge play. in the bottom of the ninth rangers have the bases loaded. a chance to end the game but mitch grounds into the 3-2-3 double play so we skip ahead to the 11th inning. game still tied. rangers, bases loaded. no outs. cruz again. >> unbelievable. >> that is a walk off grand slam home run in the alcs. 7-3 the rangers win. they now head back to detroit to play game three tonight up 2-0 on the tigers. >> richard, we were watching this last night at the holiday

inn on 57th smoking our carton of cam ls. and you and i both noticed the same thing. this guy cruz in the zone. you knew he was going to hit that out. >> it was as if the ball had slowed down. the announcers even called it and there he was. the long foul ball and then boom. the walk off home run. unbelievable it was unbelievable. the cardinal blew out the brewers 12-3 the series tied at one. mika's opinion pages next. sure wish you guys would bring layaway back.

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they didn't take a dime. how much in fees does your bank take to watch your money ? if your bank takes more money than a stranger, you need an ally. ally bank. no nonsense. just people sense. welcome back. time for the must read opinion pages. i have two. one about the race in massachusetts and the other about the jeffress moron situation. "new york times" about elizabeth warren and scott brown. a sense of humor is the first casualty of any fiercely fought campaign, and brown vs. warren, if she gets the nomination, will be one of 2012's fiercest.

his victory in the special election in early 2010 not only stunned but galled democrats. a photo genic, inel tyen tyupst seat left vacate by the death of ted kennedy and it could prove decisive in preventing republicans from wresting control of the chamber. both parties will flood the state with money. warren on monday announced an impressive two-month tally of $3.15 million in donations and both parties' candidates will be shoe horned into the election cycles of biting cliche's and conceits whether they fit or not. warren and brown don't at least not neatly. >> katty kay, massachusetts is going to be a critical senate battle. probably the most fascinating next year. >> yeah, because the republicans if they want to take the senate need to hold on to massachusetts and they think that in scott brown they have what they believe is the perfect candidate. he was always going to be

vulnerable. it was always a surprise that a republican took that seat initially. and he's done everything right. but, you know, it is interesting what frank is writing here about the tone. once you have both sides pouring large amounts of money in and they're kind of matched financially you're left with negative attack ads. you're left with character assassinations. i fear we're going to see a lot more of that in this very tightly held seat. you know, class, background, education is all going to be put into play there. and, you know, it's what you've been talking about, more of the kind of depressing type of campaigning and tone than i think we'll see out of massachusetts over the next year rather than the kinds of things that voters really need to hear about. >> mika, we read part of the politico column. let's do david brooks because i'm just going to throw the red meat between charles and haas and watch some fighting. >> the milk toast radicals. david brooks. the occupy wall street movement

may look radical but its members' ideas are less radical than those you might hear at your average rotary club. its members may hate capitalism, a third believe the u.s. is no better than al qaeda according to a "new york" magazine survey but since the left no belonger believes in the nationalization of industry these radicals really have no systemic reforms to fall back on. they are not only small thinkers -- not the only small thinkers. president obama promises not to raise taxes on the bottom 98%. the occupy types celebrate the bottom 99%. republicans promise not to raise taxes on the bottom 100%. through these and other pledges leaders of all three movements are hedging themselves in. they are severely limiting the scope of their proposed solutions. the thing about the current moment is that the moderates in suits are much more radical than the pierced anarchists camping out on wall street or the tea party types. don't be fooled by the cliche's

of protest movements past. the most radical people today are the ones that look the most boring. it's not about declaring war on some nefarious elite. it's about changing behavior from top to bottom. let's occupy ourselves. >> david brooks revenge. the boring moderates now the revolutionaries. the revolutionaries now small thinkers. charles, what say you? >> no, what i will say is this, which is what the wall street protests are about is fairness. will they solve all of america's problems by seeking fairness? absolutely not. will you make up the gap in the budget by making things more fair? absolutely not. but will you give americans back a sense of kind of moral rightness that the system does work for everyone in the same way?

and i think that is a very valid thing to protest about. it is very american to do that. i don't think people should write that part of it off. >> it's not about fairness to me. it's about populism, whether these people on the left or the tea party on the right. this is a sign of things that are and things to come. this is americans increasingly happy with the status quo. by the way, it's not just americans. we're seeing it all over the world where essentially you have dysfunctional governments. it's about a lot more than fairness actually. i really do think this is a populist outcry. >> katty kay, the global view? this is not just america that's protesting. >> yeah. one of the things that has surprised me over the last couple years, mika, is actually how long it has taken americans to come out and protest. when you've seen tens of thousands turning out in madrid, the same in athens, the same in paris, it was a long lag before people turned out on the streets here. my only question about what david brooks is writing in his piece today is who are these radicals that he talks about in suits? it doesn't seem to me like anyone is doing anything very

radical, certainly not here in washington. in fact they're not doing very much at all. >> up next, willie's news you can't use. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ let's go ♪ ♪ cruise like a norwegian ♪ ♪ cruise like a norwegian do you have an irregular heartbeat called atrial fibrillation, or afib, that's not caused by a heart valve problem? are you taking warfarin to reduce your risk of stroke caused by a clot? you should know about pradaxa. an important study showed that pradaxa 150mg reduced stroke risk 35% more than warfarin. and with pradaxa, there's no need for those regular blood tests. pradaxa is progress. pradaxa can cause serious, sometimes fatal, bleeding. don't take pradaxa if you have abnormal bleeding,

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police tell us. it's time. it's got to be. >> couple quick items news you can't use. hugo chavez is campaigning. a big election next year. >> oh, no. >> down in venezuela.

100% or 99%? he wants the kids' vote so he appeared on a television show with a rapper and did backup dancing. that is him in the back. not sure what that move is there but he is just showing he is in touch with the kids. kind of a get out the youth thing. one of venezuela's hottest rappers i'm told right there. there we go. with the manila folder, too. >> looking at that reminds you of, quick question, boris yeltsin, 1996. dancing on the stage. >> that's one of the greatest of all time. let's get that for next hour. >> all right. another clip. check this out. it is burning up the web. this is a bicycle race in south africa. >> my gosh. >> watch for an antelope on the right. stand by. >> oh, no! >> what? >> millions of people around the world -- >> my lord. >> have watched this clip online. this is a south african bicycle

race. this is a red antelope which can weigh as much as 300 pounds. >> oh, my gosh! >> just lights that guy up. here's the good news. not injured. >> what? >> no way. >> his mel met was shattered. went to the hospital and got checked out. >> wow. >> can you imagine? >> the antelope was fine. kept running. antelope didn't even notice. >> that is an argument for helmets. he should get a deal, a bike helmet deal. hold the shattered helmet and say see? >> former governor george pataki, refuge jeanne robinson and howard dean. we'll be right back. [ wind howling ]

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after chris christie and sarah palin announced they weren't running it seems like republicans are trying hard to keep people excited. take a look at this promo for tomorrow's debate. >> eight presidential hopefuls will go head to head. rick sanitarium santorum! hot as an oven mitt romney. jon huntsman. rick the corn dog perry. michele i'll be backman. herman cain we'll make it rain. and ron paul. there will be slandering, arguing, and some of the most exciting political conversing you've ever seen. >> it is what gives me the experience to put together a plan to help restructure the basis. >> tune in to the gop. tuesday night at dartmouth college.

>> you got to do what you got to do. >> welcome back to "morning joe." top of the hour richard haas is still with us along with katty kay in washington and joining the table here in new york former republican governor of new york george pataki. and former governor of vermont and former chairman of the democratic national committee howard dean. in washington, we also have pulitzer prize winning columnist, associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst. >> and father-in-law eugene robinson. >> his son got married last week. a father-in-law now. >> that's nice. >> congratulations. >> thanks so much. >> i'm looking at the front of the newspapers today, "the washington post", "new york times", both leading with torture in afghanistan. systematic abuse across afghanistan. we're going to get also, got a lot of polls to talk about. the presidential debate tonight but, howard dean, let me start with you. you took off in 2003 as an anti-war candidate. that's what you were painted in the media as. afghanistan now. this is another serious development. systematic abuse over half of

the prisoners tortured in the most explicit -- >> and some children. >> this is why we don't belong there anymore. and i actually supported this one from the time that bush sent people there. >> right. >> right through obama's surge. last summer i realized this is not winnable. we have no partner over there of any serious means and this is the kind of stuff that's going to happen. i think we need an orderly withdrawal and staying until 2014 is a mistake. >> we do need an orderly withdrawal. here's the catch, though, richard. we talked about 2014. that date is going to move, too. because the generals think they need to stay there until 2020. they all do. >> we've already been there ten years. >> and 2030 as long as afghanistan remains afghanistan so long as pakistan provides a sanctuary to the taliban. this is not going to succeed. >> it doesn't matter whether we leave in 2014, 2024 or 2034.

it's the same afghanistan. whatever year we choose. >> yeah. i think we're going to leave behind some kind of mess whenever we leave. i've argued for a while that we should get out much sooner rather than much later. you know, the tendency is just to let inertia kind of keep it going, but we spend lives. we spend money. and in the end afghanistan is not changing and pakistan is sure not changing. >> mika, you know the reason why we stay there. a lot of people say, well listen, if the policy doesn't make sense then why do we stay? we stay because there is no politician that wants to be blamed for, quote, losing afghanistan. so we spend 2 billion a week while our own infrastructure crumbles, while our education system crumbles, while we cut back on r&d. young americans die and politicians can avoid responsibility for, quote, the loss. >> and for the most part the gop candidates are skirting the issue. mitt romney did have a speech, a

foreign policy speech that he gave last week but it's not central to the conversation. >> but the one republican actually who is still running who has moved back a little bit is jon huntsman who also had a foreign policy speech yesterday. >> absolutely. >> his speech did suggest that this is not the way forward. >> you're right. another one for huntsman. having a good day. all right. republican presidential hopefuls head to new hampshire tonight to square off in a debate at dartmouth college sponsored by bloomberg news and "the washington post." it is the fifth debate for the candidates but the first to put a sole focus on the economy. it comes as "the washington post" this morning declares there is much at stake for perry in the debate. tonight's debate will be critical for texas governor rick perry as his recent poll numbers continue to decline. "the post" attributes perry's drop to a series of unsteady debate performances last month. the latest disappointing numbers for perry come in the new nbc news maris poll where the governor has only 6% support among new hampshire primary voters. mitt romney leads the group in

the granite state with 44% followed by herman cain in a distant second with 13%. in iowa, the same poll shows romney leading with 23% support among likely caucus goers. herman cain a close second, 20%, followed by perry at 11%. and the latest gallup national poll has herman cain just about tied for the lead with mitt romney. the two points between those candidates within the margin of error. as cain surges in the polls he is also getting an upgraded seat at tonight's debate. a spokesman for dartmouth college says the candidates will be seated based on their recent bloomberg "the washington post" poll standings which put romney and cain side by side in the front. romney, though, does not appear threatened by cain even praising him at a town hall yesterday. >> let's go to governor pataki. fascinating poll numbers. we were told that this was going to be a battle between mitt romney and rick perry through new hampshire, maybe florida. that seems to have changed very

quickly. why the precipitous drop by rick perry? >> i think there's just ban void. there's been a huge void on the republican side. mitt romney has been out there for five years and he has occupied his space consistently ever since. but it seems every two or three months you have the flavor of the month whether donald trump or michele bachmann and then rick perry. but what happens is they get out there and they create this excitement but then there isn't any substance behind the excitement. you have to have a message. you can't just show up and say i'm great. now it's herman cain because herman has had a message. he has had a plan. he's the only republican including romney out there who has a plan. 999. he is actually talking about what he would do as opposed to -- >> sounds like an old mci commercial. >> i don't think it is a winning plan. >> but there is a ring to it. >> and it's something. >> so to speak. >> governor pataki, you talk

about the flavor of the month. we completely agree with that, that being a potential problem for the field. but what do you make of jon huntsman who hasn't been the flavor of the month but even his recent comment calling jeffress a moron, this is someone who knows who he is. this is someone who is capable. why isn't he breaking through? >> well, for all the media attention to governor huntsman -- do you like him? >> i do like him but nationally he is at 1%. >> yeah. >> i think part of the reason is his message, yes, we mentioned that he does have a position on afghanistan but it seems like almost every time he takes the contrarian view as opposed to occasionally agreeing with orthodox conservatives and i just think he hasn't caught on with the people. you have to have the ideas. you have to have a message. you also have to be someone that people can identify with. that hasn't happened. i think he has the potential to do very well in new hampshire. beyond that, we'll see what

happens. >> not so sure. >> jon huntsman's problem is he is in the wrong party. he is a business democrat essentially and running in a very conservative republican electorate. >> wow. >> i think. >> governor, you are the only one that's been in the hot house of presidential politics and there is no way that any of us, anybody watching could understand what that's like unless they've -- seriously. unless they've been there. i'm going to do something that i have not done yet. i'm going to actually give rick perry the benefit of the doubt. >> what? >> i'm just going to try. >> come on now. >> just for a second. he has been -- he has stumbled and made one mistake after another mistake after another mistake. do you think he ever -- there is no way he ever saw this coming. right? you could never fully prepare for running for president. >> here's what happened to rick perry. he is the governor of a very large state, although actually that state has the weakest governorship in the country so there's not a lot of administrative experience.

the al gore actually presents the budget in texas. it is an extraordinarily weak governorship but he has been there for a long time and is a good politician. the problem is unlike me who had problems being ready for primetime but at least i had time to run up to it, he was plunked in there and was the front runner about three days after he announced. and that is i don't know how anybody -- >> you had a ramp up. >> went from zero to leading the polls over a six-month period. even that was a lot for somebody -- >> that makes a big difference. >> it makes a big difference. >> rick perry jumping in, announcing, and suddenly -- >> i don't know how you do this. people say you can run again. what i say is if you've done this once, you really need a visit to the psychiatrist before you make the decision to do it again because it is really tough and i think rick perry, accomplished politician that he is, had no clue what was going to happen to him especially dropping into a race like this. >> gene robinson, let me ask you. we had governor pataki talking about the flavors of the month.

it was sarah palin last fall. it was donald trump in the spring. it was michele bachmann in early summer. it was rick perry late summer. now it's herman cain. i suspect that's not going to end well for herman cain either. what's happening in the gop? it's just a constant churn. >> they're looking for the anti-romney. you know, it's a succession of not mitt romneys and herman cain is the latest not mitt romney who appeals apparently according to the erin terninternals i've appealing to the tea party faction of the republican party and there's always going to be somebody who fills that role because those people are not really into mitt romney. and so it'll be the herm-ator for a while and maybe perry comes back. he's got some money. he can try to hit the reset

button and see if he can get back up to that. >> that's a great point. we always have to remember, governor, that you had john mccain. >> right. >> and then he was up and then down and came up at the end. any one of these people could make a surge at the end. >> i think rick perry can come back. i was interested in listening to howard's kplents comments on hi experience. governor perry wasn't planning on running for president. he was there, governor of texas, and people came to him and they all say you're great. you have to run. instead of having that time to mentally and on the issues prepare and outline your theme as to what you're going to run on, finally you become convinced by all these people saying you have to save the country. so i think he has the potential to grow in that candidacy and for that candidacy to come back. >> catty kay, the one thing rick perry has going for him is $20 million in the bank. >> he does raise money. >> he raised more than anybody else. the question is, and i've seen a

lot of candidates get in the middle of a storm like this, and not realize what you have to do at that point is drop, stop, and roll. get down to the ground and just relax. catch your breath. pull everybody in and say it's ban disastrous month or two or it's ban disastrous week. let's keep our heads down and do the small things. let's block. let's tackle. sorry for the football analogies but they really do apply here. let's do the small things right and pretty soon we'll see that we'll start putting some points up on the board. the question is does rick perry and his team have the discipline to do that? >> well, you know, from what we hear, they are revisiting a strategy. he is getting more sleep, prepping himself better, he now has a romney sit-in to go against him in his prep debate so they've taken some of the blows seriously. you know, i think the money is a good point. it is not everything. michele bachmann raised a whole load of money and she doesn't seem to have managed to translate that into getting ahead in the polls. but, you know, i think exactly

what gene says. if people are giving this amount of money to rick perry it suggests they're not happy with the front runner they've had so far, with mitt romney. and there is this tendency in the republican party. remember fred thompson. a year out he was the great white hope that was going to rescue the gop. and there is always this tendency for them to look for somebody they think is the ideal candidate. and it points at the moment to this discrepancy. i mean, governor dean says that jon huntsman is in the wrong party. actually it just points to the fact that the republican party is so broad at the moment and seems to be so split between the establishment and the tea party that it's very hard for any candidate to marry those two wings of the party and keep everybody happy. >> and it suggests, this conversation suggests chris christie is a pretty smart guy. not being, you know, lured into this like rick perry was. >> very disciplined. >> so one thing that bothers me, richard, is the fact that this debate is going to be about

economics only. we haven't talked about foreign policy in any of these debates. >> don't they relate? >> and at what point do we start talking about men and women dying in afghanistan, the $2 billion we're spending a week in afghanistan? our libya policy which this was a war that was supposed to take a week and has taken years. asking questions about iraq. when are we going to get out of iraq and start rebuilding america? asking about, you know, the president's terrorism policy. at what point are these republican candidates going to be forced to stand up and state their positions? and actually, admit that they agree with barack obama in a lot of cases more than they would like to? >> the short answer is not very much. it's interesting we're voting for the commander in chief not simply the governor in chief. and you wouldn't know it from the republican campaign so my hunch is other than the foreign policy debate in the fall between whoever is the republican candidate and barack obama, we probably will not get

several hours of concentrated attention on foreign policy, which means we're ultimately again going to elect somebody who is going to be making all these decisions about what to say and do about an iranian nuclear program or a failed pakistan or what to do about afghanistan and iraq. and we're not going to really know what he is going to do. >> the world stage now howard dean is more dangerous than it has been in years but your campaign focused on foreign policy. americans don't seem to be focused on it. >> of course they're not. 1% of the people are going to vote or 2% on foreign policy. that includes israel, afghanistan, iraq, and everything else. they're going to vote on the economy. this is unusual for republicans. not one republican running except jon huntsman has any foreign policy experience. not one. that is unusual. also i disagree with you about the republicans. i think they are usually much better organized than this. we usually go through what they're going through. i remember when clinton was running, well we got to get cuomo in. we got to get ted kennedy in. this goes on all the time on the democratic side. i've never seen it on the

republican side before and i think it is a function of what gene and you all were talking about the split between the tea party and the establishment wing. because usually the establishment wing just ends up rolling over everybody and getting what they want. this time not so easy. >> the promise of rick perry was the possibility of ewing the establishment wing and the tea party wing. it just hasn't worked out. >> it may yet. >> i think it still could. >> i think he has a shot. >> i don't think this is inherently a bad thing for the republican party. i think it is good to be searching for that ideal candidate and for candidates to surge in the polls and then collapse and have to fight their way back. you don't want to simply hand this to someone. you want to make them earn it. >> that's true. >> i think this is a good process. >> is there anything about this field that frustrate you? >> yeah. totally. i think everybody on our side, my side, is running against president obama. but with the exception of herman cain's 999 no one is laying out their agenda of what they're going to do. i love governor romney but he

has a 157-page economic plan. no one is going to read that. what is he going to do as president to deal with the deficit and with jobs? i think he has to lay out an alternative vision for the country. it hasn't happened. and i think republican voters are frustrated by the absence of what are you going to do when you get in there as opposed to president obama? >> exactly. they are running against president obama but what is their plan on afghanistan, education reform, tax reform, social security? what is their plan on medicare? what's their plan on saving m medica medicaid? there are huge issues and there is a void because this president is afraid to step out and aggressively stake his claim on how we get people back into the work force. and yet the republicans have this huge ideological void. >> yeah. i mean, if president obama is leaving such a void, why doesn't somebody rush in? why doesn't somebody fill it and

say, here's what we ought to do. come out with a credible sounding plan for dealing with the economy, for dealing with foreign policy. they're not doing that. >> i can't believe i agree with gene robinson. >> there we go. >> i totally agree. you're right. >> it was going to happen one of these days. i knew it. >> i would have brought party hats and streamers had i known. i want to get to katty kay but you want to jump in, richard. >> if people put forward a plan they'd be on the defensive and have to explain why they put forward some serious positions which involve compromises. they won't do it. it is much easier to run against to make this a referendum on the president than to put forward a serious alternative in which case you'd put yourself out there. >> katty kay, look what happened in great britain with david cameron whether you support or oppose what david cameron and the conservatives did over there, they presented an austerity plan. they got elected because of it. they're trying to push it through parliament right now and they will be judged by that

standard. we never seem to get that clean shot here on american politics. >> you don't have a parliamentary system so you don't have a system where the party in power can pretty much do whatever they want for five years. and the jury is out, joe, on what is happening in britain in terms of the numbers. we have pretty much flat economic growth at the moment and a lot of people are losing their jobs. i mean, i think one of the most interesting poll numbers out there at the moment is this 44% of americans who think that whichever party comes into office next time around they're not convinced it's going to make much difference to their own economic fortunes. i think there is a realization over the last couple years that this stuff is incredibly hard. and very complicated. and that we are tied into events around the world. if europe crashes, who knows what impact that will have on the united states? and voters know that it's going to be very difficult for either party, for either candidate to actually fix this. >> it is hard but i want to hear from governor pataki later what he thinks they should be saying.

eugene robinson, thank you very much. >> 999. nine minutes on week days. nine minutes on weekends. nine minutes to spread on your mci account wherever you want. herman cain's 999 plan. >> the herman-ator. check out gene robinson's column today on "the washington post".com. coming up tonight the moderator of tonight's gop debate charlie rose will join us from new hampshire. also we'll talk to pbs's tavis smiley. mitt romney is up in new hampshire and iowa but can he hold on to his lead? we'll talk to nbc chief white house correspondent chuck todd. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. i wish you guys had layaway -- well... 'cause i could pay a little at a time... that would work. actually we do -- the kids would just be like, "no way, awesome!" we -- we do! all that! layaway baby! [ male announcer ] layaway's back for christmas. starting october 17th.

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herman cain is a terrific guy. and give him a good look. i'm not going to try and convince you that my private sector experience is better than his. the key thing is both herman and i spent our careers in the private sector and so i think

that's one of the reasons both of us are doing pretty well in terms of public support is because we have not spent our life entirely in politics. we do understand something about how the economy works. >> all right. welcome back. 25 past the hour. joining us now msnbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and the host of the daily rundown, chuck todd. chuck, we show romney's lead in both iowa and new hampshire leading in new hampshire with 44% of the vote and iowa with 23%. but you say his lead in iowa as bit more precarious. break it down for us. >> a few things. first of all, among long-time -- those that have caucused before in the iowa caucuses, he and cain are tied. his lead comes from those who say they've never caucused before and as you know because of the nature of the iowa caucuses it's rare that you get an influx of new iowa caucus goers. 2008 was the exception with barack obama not the rule so that is one thing. the second is the more

conservative parts of the electorate. so half of the iowa, of the iowa sample called themselves tea party supporters. herman cain leads romney almost 2-1 among those that identify with the tea party and that strain particularly in iowa is strong. if you start looking at the numbers, there's been this big debate. i saw pat buchanan and we were talking about this yesterday. should romney go into iowa and see if he can end this thing early? when you look at the poll numbers you go to the internals and you realize and start looking at the ideology and more conservative and evangelical, go down the line there is nothing but potholes for romney. there is a reason he has been hesitant to go full bore in iowa and these numbers show it. >> i don't agree with that. let me tell you why and let you respond. the key in iowa is organization. i got to believe herman cain doesn't have an organization and mitt romney has a very good organization. what do you think about that

aspect of it? >> well, governor dean, i'd say this. the romney campaign had the -- would argue they had the best organization four years ago and they lost to somebody who didn't have as good of an organization in mike huckabee who surged. they lost to a surge candidate. they didn't -- this was sort of a -- and i would also argue that a democratic caucus is much more heavily -- you lean more on organization because you have to do the whole threshold business. none of that is happening in -- on the republican side. you go in there, it's secret ballot. raise your hand once you're in and out. and it is a little bit different. you still got to get them to show up at the church basement or the school or wherever you have it in your precinct but it is just a one-time thing. you don't have to worry about okay. cain supporters go over here and santorum supporters go over there. and this whole 15% threshold is not necessary either. >> i'll tell you, in iowa, too, and chuck is exactly right, on

the republican side it was this way when i ran in northwest florida. i figured out very early the republicans didn't have the traditional organizational support, sort of people that would come to the neighborhoods that democrats did. with democrats it would be unions and you get the trial lawyer money. but what i found out very quickly, running in northwest florida it's the same thing in iowa, it's the churches. it's the churches that get out. it's the gun owners, the property rights people that get out. chuck todd, it's all these outside groups. it was so telling. we went to romney's headquarters four years ago and we saw millions of people. they were all on the phones and they had all the phone lists. they're doing everything right. then we went to where chuck norris was going to be on stage with mike huckabee. we walked through the crowds. there was no huckabee. we said can we go back stage? there was no security. we just walked back stage. he's not there. we walked through the back door. swear to god we see a bus in the back parking lot. there is one college guy outside

the bus and we said, governor, he goes, yeah. we walked in and there's mike huckabee. that was his organization and he won. i suppose that may be why, chuck, a guy like cain could end up winning iowa. >> he could. now i would argue you do have to actually campaign in iowa and that is something herman cain -- >> do you. >> mike huckabee -- >> mike huckabee did. >> huckabee did do that and he did the church thing. he went to a lot of megachurches on sundays and spent a lot of time in iowa. herman cain is not doing that. maybe he will be. but i would argue when you're at about i think we're now at 87 or 86 days until the iowa caucuses, you know, i would argue he might want to spend 75 of those 86 days doing a bus tour of the state going back and forth. i mean, you know, the debates have been helpful to him and he should absolutely show up to every debate. but other than that he needs to spend more time there. >> no doubt. by the way, you can talk to mike

huckabee and he will tell you the turning point for him in 2008 was when he laid hands on mika's forehead and blessed her. he blessed her. we will get you that photo. >> did he? >> he did. he put his hand on her and it was a hard sell. >> it was awkward, really awkward. >> the holy spirit said really do i have to do this right now? >> saved her though. look at her. >> i'm saved. >> thank you, preacher. let me ask you, chuck, we've been talking about it today. this void that's in the republican party. look at these numbers now. cain is up. but it was bachmann a month and a half. it was perry a month ago. it was bachmann two months ago. it was trump four months ago. it was palin one year ago. what do the romney people make of this fact that at least half of the republican voting block just doesn't want him to win the nomination? >> i would say in these two polls there are two other numbers that should make them even a little more nervous. we separated the groups, rank

one through four what is more important, experience, electability, shares your values, shares your position on issues. well, look at values and issues. combine that. 59%. electability and experience 37%. that's in iowa. and in new hampshire those numbers were about the same. a majority. look at 58% values and issues over electability and experience 41. romney is running an electability and experience campaign. nothing wrong with it. it may get him the nomination by default. he may become everybody's second choice. and that seems to be what romney is trying to do is become the second choice but what is he going to look like? i've said this for the last couple leads. what is romney going to look like after rick perry spends the $20 million he has trying to reremind new hampshire and iowa republicans that mitt romney has been on both sides of the abortion issue or on both sides of gay marriage or on both sides of some of these values issues

that do matter to base republican voters particularly in iowa. >> governor pataki, you look at these numbers and as a candidate you can truly become a puppet to them and try and cater to them but ultimately it's going -- you're not hearing from them what you want to hear, which you were talking about last blog. how does romney overcome becoming the candidate by default by choice? what does he need to say? >> i think it's pretty easy to do. it goes right back to the numbers chuck was just showing us that issues really matter this year. and i think that's why if romney or any candidate laid out an alternative vision as to what they were going to do, chuck said it earlier this morning. what are you going to do on medicaid, medicare, social security? how are you going to deal with the deficit? what are you going to do to create jobs? >> those are hard answers, governor. >> they're not that hard. >> really? >> they're not. >> i hate to say this but i'm agreeing with gene robinson and disagreeing with richard this

morning. i think if you laid out a specific plan, rather than becoming a target, you would become a goal to look at and i think that's why paul ryan is so well liked in the republican party. he laid out a detailed plan. sure he took -- >> for better or worse. >> he took some shots but he is now enormously respected in the party and beyond the party. i think a candidate who did that would have the ability to combine both the experience side with the issue side and become a nominee. >> you can't go halfway. >> you can't go halfway. i agree. >> i told the story before but in 1996 we were all getting killed on medicare. >> right. >> when we listened to the trustees, slowed down the rate of growth. either people ran from it and got killed, it's all they talked about after my democratic pun it was demagoguing it. i spent the whole campaign obsessing on it. i made it my issue and i ended up making him look like an idiot that didn't want to save medicare. >> right. >> the thing is you can't do this half way. if you talk about saving

medicare, if you talk about saving social security, if you talk about saving medicaid, if you talk about tax reform in an aggressive way as a republican, you can win the day. but, governor, everybody out there is scared. they seem like they're scared on both sides to tell voters the truth. >> well, yet that is exactly what the people want to hear. this is a different election because they want solutions. they don't want people saying i'm great or i did this. what are you going to do now? we have real problems. >> i wish you were right but i really feel you're not. people may want to hear the truth in principle but in fact they're going to hear policy positions they don't want to hear. the real question is in order to get serious about what ails us domestically, economically, in foreign policy, you'll have to take on sacred cows and everyone is going to say in principle i want to hear an honest candidate but then do i really want my social security or my medicare affected? do i want my taxes affected, my mortgage deduction eliminated? the answer is no. that is the reason --

>> let me tell you something. this is one of the great truths of what steve jobs' life showed us. and it is the truth. in technology. it is the truth in politics. a lot of times people don't know what they want until you show them what they want and i know that sounds overly paternalistic but i can only speak from my experience. i know when i was in congress i can only speak from my experience. when i told the truth about medicare in 1996, how it was going bankrupt, how the demagogues from the left couldn't be believed, guess what? senior citizens voted for me in a higher percentage according to glen bolzer i had the highest numbers of any republican that he took polls for in about 80 or 90 districts and the reason why is because i sat there. i told the truth. i stayed on it and i kept hammering it. people can take the truth. >> i hope you're right. >> i think i am. >> i totally agree. >> and howard dean, you completely disagree with that.

>> i love it. >> i think in fairness people have a tough time, i mean, ryan may be universally loved in the republican party but he is going to be -- you'll see a lot of him on our ads. he wanted to privatize medicare. that is an insane idea. >> the american people are better than this. they understand we have a problem. they want leadership that is going to create solutions. >> that was a crazy idea paul ryan had. >> this has been utterly con foougs. you all have switched roles. >> chuck schumer, baby. >> ah. >> gets no better than that. >> jobs bill day. >> thank you very much. appreciate it. >> love having you here. >> all right. his defiant gesture during the 1968 olympics has become one of the most iconic images in sports history. we'll talk to former olympic medalist john carlos and sports writer dave zirin coming up on the continuing quest.

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the top of the rock. 40 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." hi, willie. look at you over there.

a little bit of news here for you. new york city mayor michael bloomberg appears to be softening his stance on the occupy wall street protests. last week bloomberg blasted the group saying it's focused on banks and could harm the new york job market. when asked how long officials would allow the protests to continue bloomberg replied, quote, we'll see what happens. yesterday the mayor said he didn't expect the city to attempt to move the demonstrators any time soon. >> i have no idea how much longer. i think part of it has probably to do with the weather. but the bottom line is people want to express themselves and as long as they obey the laws we'll allow them to. when they break the laws then we're going to do what we're supposed to do, enforce the laws. >> what do you think about the demonstrations, howard? >> i think it's a positive thing. wall street is a big problem. first of all let's say this. not all of the people on wall street are evil people. some are incredibly generous, trying to make education better and so forth. but the institution is failing

the country. they really have turned into a giant gambling casino. explain to me what flash trading does to improve liquidity and capitalism when your computers can go in order and beat you to the punch and millions of shares. explain to me what credit default swaps do. 15% do a hedge and the rest is a gambling casino. collateral has mortgage obligations. it is a mess. nobody even knows where their mortgage is. this is an industry that needs to sober up and do what they're supposed to be doing in a capitalist society. >> we learned all that three years ago and it is still the same. >> enormous influence in both the democratic and republican party and it's a big problem. >> that's the problem. >> and again, banks that were too big to fail in 2008 -- >> you can't have banks that are too big to fail. >> bigger than ever before. >> a big problem. the big banks have to be broken up not because we hate the banks but if you want to live in a capitalist society you have to have the moral hazard of failure

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welcome back to "morning joe." that is john carlos and tommy smith with their iconic black power salute on the podium for the 200 meters at the mexico city olympics the lasting image of the 1968 summer games. as i say an iconic moment for the civil rights movement. now john carlos is out with a new memoir "the john carlos story the sports moment that changed the world" written with dave sirin and dr. john carlos and dave join us now. gentlemen, thank you for being here. >> it's an honor. >> great to be here. >> let me ask you about that day in mexico city. how long had you and tommy

thought about that? how did that moment come to pass? how did you decide exactly what to do? we're going to wear the gloves and no socks and the rest of it? >> you know, it evolved from a two-year span from the initial attempted boycott up to the time we took the vote and then we went on from that point and decided that the boycott was said and done. we thought it was necessary to still make a statement. we came to the conclusion after the quarter semi was over, the race just before the final. and once we agreed upon the fact that we both had the same feeling and attitude about the situation, we began to look at what we had to bring to the table. >> now, the important part of this is to get on the stand in order to make your statement. >> yeah. >> you still had to win that bronze and tommy had to win that gold. >> right. >> were you running with something a little extra because of what you knew could come over? >> no. based on our performances and abilities we knew we'd make the

victory stand. the only way was if lightning would hit in one spot. >> my goodness. what drew me to the story was the race itself. if you actually watch it, people should youtube it, that 200 meter race. john carlos does one of the most amazing feats of athletic pyrotechnics you've ever seen. you have to keep your head forward. john is running with the purpose of making sure him and tommy are on the medal stand so he is running and constantly looking back at tommy. constantly looking back. at one point he even says come on, tommy. stop bs'ing. hurry up. hurry up. and then so john paces and arangs this race against the best athletes on earth so they could both be on this medal stand. it is unreal. >> that was actually going through your mind? that is a short race too. not like a mile you could chat with each other. >> it actual haid taken place, a lot of people had skepticism as to what i said happened in that race but i had nothing to hide about who i am as an athlete and the gifts god gave me.

it was just a matter of making sure everybody was on the victory stand that was supposed to be there. let me also say when you introduced john carlos, dr. carlos and dr. smith, you can never go without mentioning peter norman as well. we don't ever want to exclude peter from this situation. >> that is important to point out. talk about what followed from that moment on the medal stand dr. carlos because you were condemned almost immediately. there was talk of stripping your medal though you still have it today. >> oh, well you know put up propaganda for 43 years saying they took our medals away, you know. we were going to strip you of the carrot if you misbehaved so to speak. but yet, still, those days are put to rest. the main thing is we put the demonstration up to give people hope. when it started out it started out to say we're concerned about people of color, blacks in particular. we found out over the years it just entrenched everyone regardless of your ethnic background. many people have been oppressed all over the world and it doesn't have anything to do with

color. it might have something to do with economic status based on how your standard of living is. >> the "new york times" has a great story about this book and. in the times they quote you saying, if i shut my eyes, i can still feel the fire from those days. if i open my eyes, i still see the fires all around me. i didn't like the way the world was. i believe there need to be some changes about the way the world is. last night, you went down and you spoke to the "occupy wall street" group. >> i just wanted them to know we had solidarity. i feel what they feel. i felt it 43 years. the difference is this. i don't think that activists have been dormant or put away. we have many individuals that feel that we should have an even playing field. these young individuals that came about, excuse me, they realize that this is their day,

their moment. as much as tommy smith and john collins realize there is no other place to make our point than the game. these individuals realize their beacon is wall street, the capitalists of all society. >> what was your low point after this? it happened in such a divisive time, 1968, one of the most volatile years. you did become a lightning rod. what was your low point? was there ever a time where you said, damn, i should have just kept my arm down? >> absolutely not. >> i figured that was not. >> absolutely not. >> what was your low point? >> when i lost my first wife, when she couldn't deal with it anymore and she took her life. that was a low point. there might be where you thought you had individuals that were you your friends and they stepped away from you. it took a minute to realize they left because of fear of reprisal. >> how about your family.

we know about the tragedy of your first wife. what about other members of your family, did they rally around you? >> my family stay with me through thick and thin, my mom, my dad, my brothers, everyone was with me. my kids more so. >> imagine john's son. malik carlos, in the army, having his sergeant saying, your father spit on the flag, boy, and things like that, having to hear that coming up as well and not seeing what john was doing was to try to really lift up the country, trying to get south africa and rhodesia disinvited from the olympics, because they were apartheid countries. these things 40 years in hindsight seem logical. >> john, 43 years later, how do you view america differently than you did in 1968 when you stood on that stand? >> american is still evolving, still growing. you have to have someone to make that corridor where they can

make the right turns in life. there are not no times where you stand on the side. many people walk by and want to take part. they have feared for reprisal. many are getting over that because they are realizing their lives are on the edge right now. >> it is a great story. it all springs were an iconic moment in mexico city in 1968. dr. carlos, thank you so much. it is the john carlos story, the sports moment that changed the world. thank you, gentlemen. >> thank you so much for having us. >> we will be right back. corner offices don't win. what wins? original wins. fresh wins. smart wins. the world's most dynamic companies know what wins in business today. maybe that's why so many choose to work with us. we're grant thornton. audit. tax. advisory.

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>> he is an evangelical christian, a follower of jesus christ. mitt romney is a good person, a mormon. it has always been considered a cult by mainstream christianity. >> the fact that some moron can stand up and make a comment like that, first of all, it is outrageous. the fact we are spending so much time discussing it makes it even worse. good morning, it is 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." we have "the new york times" charles blow and richard haass and the bbc's katty kay. i love jon huntsman. can i say that? >> i love that. that's the side of him that the guy should show. >> you call someone who acting like a moron and you say it. you just say it. you just go there. >> there is no doubt about it

and you look at the flurry of polls that are coming out that we are going to be showing today and it just illustrates that this type of politics does not work. i have said it time and time again and offended michele bachmann supporters and sarah palin supporters and glenn beck viewers but the fact of the matter is at the end of the day, rick perry's type of politics doesn't go national. richard haass, this is one more example of one of his supporters coming out and judging other people is unworthy of being christian and unworthy of being president, presidential. rick perry not backing away from that supporter. >> it has been one of several moments during the republican campaign season where there has been excess, during the debates when the people booed the gay service men. that moment when people cheered the executions. it would have been very interesting if jon huntsman or anyone else had called the

audience out on it and said, that's not who we are. that's not what americans are. it would have been the sort of thing he did yesterday but in front of a republican crowd. i am curious what would have been the political failout. my hunch is not bad. >> it would have been a great political fallout. 1992, bill clinton trying to prove that he wasn't a left wing died in the pool liberal and he had what watts called his sister soldier. there have been so many opportunities in in campaign for one republican to stand up and call out bad behave yoior. it would be so much more dramatic if somebody did it on the stage when it happened and told the audience if you think cheering on the possible death of a young man who doesn't have insurance is going to win you an election is going to win an election and get you closer to the white house, you are in the

wrong country. >> but here is the break. we may say it shouldn't be who they are but i am not exactly sure that it is not who that audience is. if you look at. >> it may be who the audience is but that is not who the republican party is. >> we are going into iowa in less than three months. if you look at the caucuses from the last go-around, romney had a great ground game. he spent a lot of time and money there. 60% of those people were evangelical christians. romney lost the evangelical vote. he only got 19% of that vote. he won the nonevangelical vote. >> he is running against a southern baptist preacher. come on. >> when those people show up at the polls, right now they are scheduled to show up on january 3rd. charles, don't mix people that boo in the audience a gay serviceman or cheer the possible death of a young man without

insurance with all, quote, evangelicals. >> i am not mixing that at all. what i'm saying is that people on that stage. >> it sounds like you are. >> let me clarify. people on that stage do not want to alienate anyone. they are going really hard at that vote. so every time you see a republican debate, everybody is talking about how many kids they have, it is all sorts of value issues. cy many for -- not for abortion in any camp. it is really going straight at the social value issues. so for you to say that maybe, you know, we don't complete the two, i think you can very much complete the two. >> this happens every four years. you have people on the far right that get a lot of press coverage early on and at the end of the day, i have written about it and it is the reality and it has happened again and i knew it was going to happen again whether everybody said sarah palin was going to be the nominee. i wrote a column saying, this isn't going to happen.

when bachmann won her straw vote and everybody said, michele bachmann, she has a chance. i said, no, she doesn't. she will not win. when rick perry came in, i said, no, no, we are the party for better or worse that does pick the ronald reagans, who has been governor for eight years, that pick the bob doles, that pick the gerald fords, that pick the john mccains or the george w. bushes. we don't take chances. we don't elect state senators that have only been in washington for a couple of weeks. we just don't tichl. it is not going to happen this year. somebody like rick perry, he can talk about shooting coyotes in the face all he wants. maybe that is going to work in texas but it is not going to work here. >> it makes for a great political piece, shooting coyotes in the face. >> we are going to get to the polls. think what joe is talking about is so interesting. it is almost like an interesting

exercise in understanding the american electorate, almost as much as i like what jon huntsman did by calling perry a moron or the pastor a moron. it was your piece. >> let me explain something. it is one thing for you or you or you or me to talk about what it is like to be in the south. you live there. you went to church, to bible school, to sunday school, everything you could go to. >> it didn't take. >> church supper. >> you know these people. >> right. >> and these candidates, all of them, didn't jump on it. didn't jump on what you knew straight ahead. you say herman cain, michele bachmann and perry all exercised their right to remain silent in the face of

>> he could have done it. he could have done it right then and there but it wasn't in his head. why? >> willie, we have seen, it the name-calling nonstop since president obama was elected president. maybe it helps in off-year elections. i have seen it. richard, i know you have seen it. charles, katty. that loses presidential elections. it may get you attention in iowa but it loses in the long run. >> charles is right, though. they are scared of offending anybody. remember, rick perry was asked point blank by a reporter, do you think the president loves america? well, you would have to ask him. everyone is afraid to come out

and say what they think. i think rick perry believes that president obama loves america somewhere diem deep in his heart. he is afraid to say it because he feels like he will be viewed by people on the right as being in bed with president obama or supporting his policies by saying that the president of the you states loves his country. >> that's the thing that chris christie had. it wasn't just standing up to unions. you ask chris christie. does the president love america? of course, the president loves america but he was strong enough to carry that off. just tell the truth. he didn't worry about what somebody was going to say, richard oz. of course, the president was. he selected a muslim as a judge in the year of the ground zero muslim community controversy. guess what? it showed his strength. yes, even republicans in middle america in the midwest, in the southwest, across america, would look and go, you know what, i

respect the guy's courage. >> all you have are a lot of candidates playing not to lose. everyone is playing it. the sports equivalent would be just that. instead of playing it to win and taking risks, they are playing to the gallery, a very narrow base. it will be interesting again, a political market test. the first candidate to do exactly what you are saying, to do what jon huntsman did yesterday in the interview, to do it on a larger stage, to see what happens, whether they get politically penalized and rewarded. that will tell us where the republican party and he protests are. the same with the protesters on wall street. they don't have a serious agenda. when will people say that? david brooks takes them on saying these people are radical. they are not serious. on both sides of the political spectrum, you see everyone playing it safe, scared to confront people in either end zone. they have to start doing it. >> republican presidential hopefuls head to new hampshire tonight to square off in a

debate at dartmouth college. the fifth debate for the candidates, the first to put some sole focus on the economy. >> you have spent some time at dartmouth. yes, it is beautiful there. it comes as "the washington post" says, there is much at stake for perry in debate. his recent numbers continue to decline. the latest disappointing numbers for perry come in the latest nbc news marish poll where he has only 6% support. mitt romney leads with 44%, followed by herman cain in a distant second with 13%. >> and in iowa. >> the same poll shows romney leading with a 23% support. herman cain, close second, 20%,

followed by paul at 11%. >> ron paul at 11%. >> freeze that poll. willie geist, we saw this in real time. people immediately deciding a month ago that iowa was going to be a smackdown between texas governor, rick perry and minnesota, congresswoman, michele bachmann. they are both stuck at 10% and they could turn it around. >> it is remarkable, katty kay, who is with us from washington, the path to victory laid out by perry supporters early on was, well, he wins iowa. maybe i concedes new hampshire to romney and comes back and wins south carolina. my gosh, if you look at these poll numbers today, he is 10 points, 15 points behind even mitt romney in iowa. >> the exciting thing about that poll is it shows how much things can change. it was only what, two or three weeks ago we were all nominating rick perry as the front-runner

and the guy that was going to steam through iowa. it also shows, this is what's really interesting, that performance matters. people are watching across the country. we all get a little cynical thinking, who is tuning into these debates. it suggests that people are tuning in and they are looking for answers and they are not hearing them from rick perry where even in iowa, he has to do well. if he doesn't do well there, it is hard to see how he continues on with any meaningful force. it gets back to what you were talking about just now about this idea of just how angry is the republican party. we keep hearing an awful lot about it in the primary season. it will show us some of the answer about that. i do believe there is a strong middle still in this country. the problem is shall the middle is silent. the middle does need to speak up in the way that jon huntsman has

done. the candidates that are more centrist are most scared about standing up and saying what they really believe in face of some of the attacks we have seen. >> how angry is the republican party you ask? >> the republican party is so angry that mitt romney is ahead in iowa. >> let's take a look at the latest gallup poll. >> that's how angry my republican party is. again, so much of this garbage, and we have been saying it, i have been saying it for six months, while people have been calling me a rhino. >> you have been called awful names. >> so much of this is sound and fur furry signifying nothing. just because i see this coming, doesn't mean they should call me awful, awful names. it is painful being right all the time. i'm sorry. >> we know you are always right, joe. listen, here is what's interesting in this scenario, though. say mitt romney takes the nomination, we also see those

polls suggesting that he doesn't have a huge amount of support amongst the republican party. a kind of like hold your nose nomination type process, what happens to the tea party then? do you think they rally behind him and give him their full endorsement? >> no, i don't think so. you can overlay what happened in '92 through '96 with what's happened from '08 to '12. what happens with the tea party? maybe they find their pat buchanan. maybe they move off in another direction. maybe the bill clinton of 2012 wins again. this has happened before. if will happen again. the rage that fueled united we stand. in 1994, mika, is so similar, to what happened with the tea party. i agree idealogically on the small government side of things with them. this has happened before. it will happen again. >> interesting dynamics in the

way they are setting up the debate. take a look at the latest gallup national poll as herman cain just about tied with the lead with mitt romney. >> i don't want to offend anybody. that ain't gonna hold up. >> why is herman cain not going to hold up? >> i want you to tell me. >> i will tell you, for the same reason that michele bachmann's lead didn't hold up, for the same reason i knew mick perry's lead wasn't going to hold up and that sarah palin wasn't going to make it, because herman cain may be very good at making pizza but serious voters, once this process moves along, maybe they reward him in iowa. he is not going to win new hampshire. just like michele bachmann is not going to win new hampshire, just like perry is not going to win new hampshire. as this roars south and goes back north, these candidates always lose.

they always lose, because voters at the end of the day, as katty, said, are serious. at the end of the day, they believe that performance matters. >> they are not excited at all by any of these candidates. >> no, they are not. >> at this point in the election in 2007, 1999, 1995, half of people could name at least a front-runner on the republican side. >> voters weren't excited about bob dole in '96. he lost. they weren't excited about john mccain in l.a. he lost. >> at least they could name him. at least they could name a front-runner. >> i don't think the real issue is the extremism of the tea party. it is whether the mitt romney and others ultimately adopt an agenda that says we can't have any new taxes. the real debate is not between 90% of the party and the tea party. i think the real debate is between what you might call establishment republicanism of

reagan and bush, the father and the new republicanism. the real question is what will the republican stand for? is he going to toe the line and say no new taxes of any sort no matter what, smaller government, no matter what? is that going to be become the new republicanism or something more traditional and more centrist? i think that's a bigger question than whether the tea party dominates. it is ultimately which party does mitt romney embrace. >> another thing to point out. we have been talking about rick perry's style and how he is going to do. there is a front piece page in the wall street journal which begins to shoot holes in the texas miracle. this has been the center piece of his campaign, saying he created all these jobs since he became governor. it goes through one of the groups, texas enterprise fund and how the jobs were created, double counting of some jobs. when the wall street journal is going after his jobs' record, he might have a problem. coming up this hour, charlie

rose joins us live from dartmouth college and we will bring in tavis smiley and dr. cornell west. what did they learn on their national poverty tour? first, let's go to bill karins. a nice quiet start to our october. we haven't had anything as far as the tropics are concerned, no hurricanes, no tornadoes. we like this next tranquil weather pattern. we have rain out there watching d.c. and virginia. some rain will be sliding your way during the day tochltd . we are dry in philly, new york, and boston, looking at damp weather in orlando. the chance of a shower or two. the middle of the country looks dry and the pacific northwest. beautiful weather on the way for l.a. and phoenix. still waiting for the ice and the cool weather. you are watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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i went to the shelter first. there was no room in the inn, per se. they referred me out here. >> the shelter referred you out here? >> the shelter referred me out here. >> you lived in your own home and you end up living in these conditions. it does what to your spirit, your soul? how do you feel? >> you feel frustrated. you get so frustrated. it is like, why couldn't they help me when i was out there? why did i have to be homeless to get help? welcome back to "morning

joe." that was a scene from the poverty tour featuring tavis smiley and dr. cornell west in their 18-city, 11-bus tour to highlight poverty in america. they join us from los angeles. we also have howard dean back at the table along with the editor of nationalmemo.com. >> i am surrounded by so many republicans. this is very exciting. >> let's talk about the poverty tour. you guys were ahead of the occupy wall street by talking about the disparity between the richest and the poorest in america. you went on a tour and you are going to show us what you found in this pbs special. how important is this issue to the health not only of america but of even american capitalism. >> first of all, joe and mika, go to be back on. good morning to howard and to

joe. it is a very important issue. perhaps the most important given that the poo in this country are growing, joe, exponentially. we got out in august to spend days on the road. 11 states, 18 cities, staying at night with poor families. as we traveled, one night we stayed on the streets all night with homeless persons literally steps away from the u.s. capital, because this issue is important enough to not be pushed to the sidelines. ins lat presidential debate, dr. wesley and i sat here listening interestingly to your last segment about the politics of this election. let's go back just a few years, joe and mika, in the last race for the white house. my colleague at pbs is moderating this debate. the last debates between mccain and obama, in three debates, the word poor or poverty doesn't come up one time. the economy is tanking at that moment. the word poor or poverty doesn't

come up one time. mccain doesn't say it, obama doesn't say it. the moderators don't raise it. i hope charlie won't do that tonight. poverty has to be raised higher on the american agenda. this will showcase you what we saw, felt, learned and heard. >> dr. west, you could go back a generation, not just 2008, and pull the transcripts of presidential debates over the past 30 years in general electionses. you don't hear poverty being talked about. you don't talk about the poor being talked about. you always hear about middle class concerns. the middle class is being crunched. the middle class is bla, bla, bla. there hasn't really been a political constituency for the poor for a generation. >> you are absolutely right. i do give credit to brother john edwards who tried to raise the issue. you have to go back to brother martin king luther who died at the time he was trying to

organize poor people. i think what brother tavis was able to bring to bear. it was his idea for the tour. i am blessed to go on the tour. just as anti-mormon prejudice is just as evil. there is a prejudice against poor people. they have been dehumanized. 40% of our children live at our near poverty. that is a national disgrace. >> what may help inject this into the conversation, we talk about how afghanistan doesn't come up at the debates and it isn't enough a part of the conversation. i look at your second show on the poverty tour schedule, i had everything. it is a show that focuses on the new poor. howard dean with so many more people finding themselves in a very, very difficult situation. can the conversation change? its occupy wall street the beginning of that? >> i hope it is. >> here is the problem. leaving aside the morality of what we are doing with a huge

group of poor people in the richest country in the face of the earth. the social stability is something that people who are governing ought to worry about. i was appalled by the republican reaction to the occupy wall street people. wall street are our friends. this really isn't about wall street. this is about a society in which our values are out of whack. in any society, whether it is china or the united states or france before the revolution, if you have people, awe huge gap between the wealthy and the poor, it means people no longer believe in the system. when americans stop believing in the system, america is finished. >> willie, at the top of the show, i asked about american capitalism. when you start hearing people like alan greenspan saying the growing difficult ver generals between the rich and poor is a threat to american capitalism. a former libertarian. then, you know we have crossed the rue the rubicon. >> tavis and dr. west, good to

see you both. it is willie. you have done a good job doing what you two can do, which is to shine a light on the problem. now, we have to worry about what flows from that. what can washington do? do you have any faith that washington can do anything? what's the big thing washington can do to help you? >> let me ask you a question, two ways. dr. west always makes a distinction between optimism and hope. optimism suggests a particular set of facts or circumstances that gives you reasons to believe that things are going to get better. that's not the case right now. we can always remain hopeful, even without the evidence. i, as an american, choose to remain hopeful, that if we continue to apply the pressure. if those of us in the media and beyond do what we can to raise the issue, if we challenge folk to re-examine their assumptions about the poor. if we give them or help them create a new inventory of idea about what to do about the poor, i am hopeful that something can

happen. more specifically, this jobs bill can get passed. the senate, as we know, is apparently taking it up this week. i hope the president won't compromise, cap pit tu looiz or cave. i keep quoting my grandfather who said, tavis, there are some fights that ain't worth fighting even if you win. there are other fights that you have to fight even if you lose. this is a fight that must be fought and the president must figure out a way to make sure americans have more jobs. it is a jobs crisis. we have to find out a way to eradicate poverty. there are all kinds of plans, the children's so jurners or jeffrey sax. it doesn't take 15, 20 years. in the short-run, we need jobs. somebody in washington has to fight. we learned finally on this tour very simply that the new poor, joe, the new poor in this

country are the former middle class. you talk about the middle class. that's who the new poor are. the former middle class. this playing to the middle class ain't going to work this time around. >> isn't it true, tavis and dr. west that the real root of the problem is growing in inequality. this is at the root of our economic problems as well as joe alluded to. dr. greenspan was talking about is that growing overweighted wealth at the top means far less consumption and investment in all the layers below. this is the root of our economic situation, isn't it? >> i think you are absolutely right. it is good to see brother alan greenspan making that claim. he has made a major contribution in promoting wealth equality for a long time. it has much to do with what's going on, not just on wall street with the movement that i am proud to be a small part of but all around the couldn't interest i and the world. it has to do with corporate greed connected to the industrial complex and the corporate greed on wall street

and eve nn the corporate media where we poison the public discourse by appealing to the lowest common denominator so we don't have a robust public conversation in the way brother joe was talking about, some quality and critical exchange but rather demonizing and polarizing and vicious polar exchanges. >> i don't usually do this but i am going to do it now because it seems that christianity is constantly being thrown into primary debates. it happened again this past weekend. how fascinating that despite the fact that many on the right have brought religion up over the past 30, 40 years, they somehow missed the core of jesus' message. jesus was asked by his disciples, who is getting to heaven? how do we sit on the right hand of the father? this is what jesus christ said. by the way, pass for jeffress,

if you open your bible to matthew, it is in red letters. that means jesus said it. then, the king will say to those on the right, come you who are blessed by my father, take your inheritance. for i was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. i was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. i was a stranger and you invited me in. i needed clothes and you clothesclothed me. i was sick and you looked after me. i was in prison and you came to visit me and that was not jesus talking about some side issue, some side board to his ministry. that was jesus talking about when asked, what his ministry was about. it was about taking care of the poor. we don't see that from the very people who wave their bibles around the most. >> we can go farther than that. there are so many references in the biblical text that talk about taking care of, looking out for the poor. you can go to the beatitudes,

blessed are the poor. what you do undo the least of these, you do unto me. we could get into the herman knew ticks all day long of how to treat the poor relative to the biblical text. that's what we have to say to all believers in this country. if we truly are believers, we have to do everything we can to raise up the poor, particularly as these numbers continue to grow expo tension nengsly. jesus was crucified. when he entered jir r jerusalem, he ran out the marquette tears out of the temple to say, you have transformed the house of prayer into a house of thieves. they threw jesus under the bus by corporate greed by downplaying our pressure children, workers and middle class, who are subject to downward mobility. >> the poverty tour series airs this week. dr. cornell west and tavis smiley, thank you very much for being on the show. we look forward to watching it. >> thank you both.

>> thank you, guys, as always. chorally rose, the moderator of tonight's republican debate, joins us. we will be right back. yesterday doesn't win. big doesn't win. titles corner offices don't win. what wins? original wins. fresh wins. smart wins. the world's most dynamic companies know what wins in business today. maybe that's why so many choose to work with us. we're grant thornton. audit. tax. advisory. rx plan gives you the lowest plan premium in the country... so you can focus on what really matters. call humana at 1-800-808-4003.

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the republican presidential candidates debate tonight at dartmouth college in hanover, new hampshire, joining us now one of the moderators of the debate, charlie rose. charlie, good morning. are you on the green there? >> good morning to you. >> i am, indeed. a little chilly. where are you? you should be here. >> we should be. i want to ask you what you hope to accomplish. we have seen something. i think it is good that we have seen over the past couple months these debates matter. you have sceptics that like to sniff that we have too many of them. every debate seems to be fundamentally shaping this race. what do you hope to teach americans tonight with your questions? >> reporter: well, . >> well, i hope we will find out something about the distinction of their views on the economy and how they can appeal not only to the dysfunction in washington but also to connect with the

american people to understand exactly how they would go about trying to alleviate the crisis that the country faces, not only in terms of jobs, most importantly in terms of jobs but also the disparity that tavis smoke about earlier. >> how do we get them to actually talk in specifics about that disparity and the situation we are in? the conversation we have had this morning is about how none of the candidates have really brought forward specifics as to what they would do, because then they would have to defend it? >> you are certainly going to ask about their plan. governor perry says he is going to announce his plan on friday. we will try to push him on that. we will also try to have an opportunity here for them to talk to each other and to question each other. hopefully, that might produce some kind of consequence. you can ask the question as much as can find out about where they are and what they have said and how does that contradict with what they might have done might provide some insight as to where

they are going. it is not easy. i think we have a focus here on the economy, which will make a difference. all those other issues are important but here the focus is on the economy, on jobs, on all those things that affect the economy, about sort of american creativity and it is also a group of people that want to be present sitting at a table. they are eyeball to eyeball. they will have an opportunity not to sit behind a podium at a distance from the people asking the questions but right across the table and hopefully that will enhance the dialogue. >> hey, charlie, it is willie. good to see you this morning. >> hey, willie. >> i don't want to spoil too much of what you have got prepared tonight. but do you intend to ask them about the "occupy wall street" movement and what they think it means for the country, whether or not they support it? >> indeed, yes. absolutely. i think it seems to be a growing phenomenon. what does it say about some of despair in the country and how they characterize it, how do

both democrats and republicans characterize it. it clearly is happening. anything else like that that somehow reflects where america's anger, america's passion is ought to be discussed this evening. >> in light of the recent segment that we just had with cornell west and tavis smiley, poverty. i would like to know if their are prescriptions for poverty or more tax cuts, that will be a very interesting thing to talk about? >> well, clearly, there is an ongoing -- clearly, we will talk more than just about tax cuts and clearly the disparity in income based on some new numbers that we have seen is increasing. so we will clearly pursue that. whether we will get the kind of answers that you or others will effect is a different matter, not totally in our control but the question will be asked. also, questions of immigration that affect the economy and there are all kinds of things that are not exactly thought of in terms of jobs and economic numbers but affect the economy in the united states and how competitive it is with the rest

of the world and whether government is doing the kinds of things that government ought to do or not to do to impact the economy. >> charlie, joe conison here. this goes to the problem of a dewad debate. how do you get beyond the glib answers of tax cuts and answers of dubious rel vancy to the fact that we have 9% unemployment that seems intractable? what do you do as a moderator to push beyond the same old answers that they have been giving in every debate? >> i mean, it is a hard task, joe, as you know. it is the first time i have done this and i have looked forward to it with a little bit of understanding that it will require listen carefully and following up. i have two colleagues from "the washington post" that know the subject matter and they will be there as equal partners with me asking the questions. we have to listen carefully. we have to come in prepared.

we just have to see if we can in a sense measure what they have said about what the obvious reality is as well as what other candidates have said and what other people have said. >> so what is debate prep for charlie rose? is it kind of like that rocky fight scene, eat raw eggs and you run five miles while you have got your ipad hooked up. what is debate prep for charlie rose? >> i went out looking for a farm view here in new hampshire. i think i found a place you might like a lot. a place to slip away on the weekend and sort of get to know the people of new hampshire. >> charlie rose, as i always tell you in private conversations, new hampshire people are the best people in the world. iowa people also, salt of the earth. love them. >> please. >> don't get me started about that. >> i love them, charlie. >> if you walk out of the hanover inn and you take a right

and keep going straight, there is the best hill work-out you will ever have. >> already done. >> sounds like joe is going to be the next flavor of the month. i hear them cranking up there. >> what are you talking about? >> i just love new hampshire people. >> have you guys been talking about herman cain this morning? >> we have. >> all right. charlie. >> what's your take? >> on herman cain. >> yes. >> i think he is this month's rick perry and michele bachmann. and donald trump. it is the the nonromney candidate. we keep getting those every month or two now. >> we will follow up on what you said and see whether tonight makes a difference. >> charlie rose, thank you so much. take care. up next, will greece get a new bailout? new developments next and business before the bell.

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let's get a check on business before the bell. cnbc's simon hobbs. what are things looking like down there? >> today, the earning season starts for the third quarter with alcoa, the aluminum producer after the bell. this market is almost totally focused on europe. we have had a 1,000-point rally in the dow over the last five and a bit, four and a bit trading sessions. we rose 3% yesterday on the belief that europe has fixed it's problems and will come out with a grand bargain in the next two weeks. the truth is the dirt little secret is and what the market is not recognizing is that there is no plan in europe at the moment. there is only an agreement to have a plan. so the potential is, with he could split right back from where we are at the moment, guys. >> let me ask you, a week after steve jobs' death, a week aft disappointing launch of the

latest iphone, what's apple looking like? >> apple is doing great guns. did you see their orders? they were absolutely phenomenal for the iphone 4-s. it is either the voice technology that has really caught people's imaginations or alternatively, it is the sympathy and the reference with which people thought of steve that they bought so many of the hand sets. it has been actually their best launch ever, extraordinary. >> oh, my goodness. >> simon hobbs, thank you very much. >> thank you. up next, the best of late night. yesterday doesn't win. big doesn't win.

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>> after chris christie and sarah palin announced they weren't running, it seems like they are trying to keep people escited. >> rick "san tear yum" santorum. john hair comb huntsman. rick, the corn dog perry. we will make it rain. and ron paul. there will be slandering, arguing an some of the most insane political conversing you have ever seen. >> it is what gives me the experience to put together a plan to help restructure the basis. >> tune in to the g.o.p.,

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welcome back to "morning joe." let's talk about what we learned today. >> i learned that hugo chavez iz working to get the vote in venezuela. he has a long way to go. there is the gold standard right there, boris yeltsin. >> he knows how to dance. >> i learned hugo chavez is in a lot more trouble with his cancer treatment than i thought. he looks like he is hundreds of years older and. >> he has the dance move but he may not be the president of venezuela after the next election. >> joe, what are you learned? >> i have learned to my shock and surprise that joe scarborough is a true christian. >> the kind we admire. >> mika? >> all of the sudden, i can be knocked down. >> i can read a bible verse and remind republicans what t