we continue to follow the breaking news this morning. hello. i'm chris jansing, and we are talking about the leader of libya for 42 years, moammar gadhafi. rebel leaders in libya say that he is dead, but the white house and the state department have not been able to confirm either that he has been captured or killed. we do have a gory cell phone picture. it's being circulated by the rebels. again, we have not independently confirmed this photo is gadhafi. the rebels say it's proof that he's dead.

they report gadhafi was wounded in both legs and captured in trying to flee his hometown of sirte. nato reports they did hit his convoy. that's where adrian is this morning. >> reporter: it's been a long haul for the fight for freedom in libya. the rebel forces say they've got gadhafi. we've not been able to confirm whether this is true. they're also now saying that gadhafi was killed in the process of being captured. he was believed to have been found in sirte, which is his hometown and strong hold of gadhafi loyalists. apparently, they made a push this morning that lasted about 90 minutes and then finally took over. we were on our way down from misrata to sirte, when we started hearing rumors from various checkpoint militia men

that gadhafi had been caught. we stopped over and watched a convoy pass, about 200 cars going by, supposedly, with the boody of gadhafi. it's believed again that his body is headed to misrata, which is a rebel stronghold. it's not clear what the next moves are. the mood here is overwhelmingly jubilant. people are very, very relieved. they're happy. they're grateful. perhaps now they believe they can finally start taking that all important step forward to setting up a constitution, a new government, and a new country. back to you. >> adrienne mong, thank you very much. want to bring our panel, former assistant secretary of state under president clinton. jamie ruben, nbc news military analyst. and retired four-star general barry mccaffrey. obviously, part of the problem for the u.s. and the white house is in the past reports of gadhafi's death have proved to be exaggerated, shall we say.

aiman, obviously, you spent a lot of time in that region. what are we hearing about what happened in libya? >> we are getting reports from sources in sirte and in tripoli that moammar gadhafi has been killed. the details of how he was killed remain conflicting. there's reports there was a convoy trying to leave sirte. there are also reports he was captured first on the ground in some kind of underground tunnel and then killed at the hands of the rebels that did capture him. we have reports that his son, one of the leaders of the paramilitary forces in libya was also captured. he'll be able to shed light on the final days and hours and indeed what happened. >> jamie, indeed, what's the importance and the significance as we look at the larger context of the arab spring? >> it's a very big day. it's hard to imagine a bigger day in the context of the arab spring. the uprising in libya in which the people themselves were prepared to fight for their freedom against the ultimate

dictator of the region is the grand story of the arab spring and the willingness of the west, first france and britain and the united states to assist that battle has led to this graemt moment. if you live in that part of the world, and you've lived under the boot of moammar gadhafi, this is an extraordinary moment. for decades, this person has loomed so large in the lives of every single person in libya and many in the arab world. to see him die probably in the same way that saddam hussein died, but this time the battle was conducted by the people themselves, the rebels themselves, rather than the united states coming in from outside. s that's the big difference here. that's why the arab spring is so unique. how they behave now, how they

manage justice and the rule of law and democratic values is going to be the test. in a way this really is the new libya. now that gadhafi is really gone. >> and a new way forward for u.s. involvement in uprisings like this. this is not a situation where this dictator was killed by u.s. forces. this is not a situation where it was largely u.s. air power. the president decided to be patient. the nato forces took the lead, and there were times when the u.s. was criticized for that, for example. by the french, for not taking a more forceful role in this. what are the implications, as you see them, general? >> obviously, good news for the libyan people. they've risen up against this dictator of 42 years and killed thousands of them. they fought very courageously. we also used nato air power as the air force of the rebellion. the hypocrisy of the u.n. resolution is mind boggling. we were attacking so-called nato

spokesmen maneuvering forces fleeing sirte which had been knocked down. i believe we did go in and supported a rebellion against gadhafi. it's a good thing he's gone. we ought to be careful about the lessons learned. we're not going to do that in syria. a people who are massively oppressed by this dictatorship. we're not going to do that in yemen. i'm not sure what the lessons are in terms of extrapolating them to the future. >> let's talk about, jamie, a little bit about syria and yemen. does it at least send a message to revolutionaries there about what is possible. >> it does, and i think it's a message to dictators as well. there was saddam hussein killed in a spider hole. there was mubarak wheeled into a courtroom. and now there's gadhafi killed wherever he was killed. so the tick tadeck tators know no good end for them. unfortunately, that means

they're going to fight. general mccaffrey is right to the extent that libya was unique. you had a situation where you were in a desert. air power could make a difference. you had a rebel army that you could work with. and you had the arab league, the arab leaders actually ask the americans, the west to come in and help. that's not happening anywhere else. so i think it is true that this was unique and it worked for that reason. for that reason, i don't think it was that hard a call. when you get to syria, you get to yemen, these are much more complicated situations where the threats of real civil war, it's not clear who's on which side. and in syria, for example, i think we're in for a very, very long struggle between those fighting on the ground for their freedom and the assad regime who are going to fight now as they see to the bitter end because this killing of gadhafi shows these dictators what the end will be if they don't manage to survive. >> and, of course, we still have

obviously a developing situation in libya itself. let's talk a little bit about that, ayman, first. how many pro-gadhafi forces are there still? is can they still cause trouble over there? >> it's going to be really important to see in the coming hours and days the kind of command structure he still had in the final days. there's reports that sayaff, one of his sons, was really involved. the ties was not an ideological one, it was the idea that they had a lot of money and some tribal affiliation. now that sirte has fallen, it's important to see what kind of weapons, what kind of men were around him. did they stay with him in the final moments out of fear for their own lives or because they believed in this this man and wanted to fight till the very end? it's so important it ctacticalld

symbolically for the libyan people because now they can start to rebuild their country. the first thing they're going to do is have a national reconciliation council to try to bring the major tribes of libya, particularly in sirte and benny walid who felt so isolated and bring them under a national organization. >> we have not confirmed the death of moammar gadhafi. the state department is not confirming it although john mccain has put out a statement about it. we do have this photo. it's a cell phone photo from the rebels. they say it's moammar gadhafi. there is other video, very gruesome video that is out there about this. that's something that obviously is playing throughout the arab world on television there. ayman brought up a good point, jamie, which is what happens next for libya and the

possibility there will be a national reconciliation council, how quickly they could, for example, hold elections. what are the biggest challenges now there? >> you have the question that ayman also raised whether asif is going to have a few hundred fighters, whether paid or fear for their lives choose to fight with him. i would call it 1%. i think getting moammar gadhafi himself is 90-plus percent of the problem. and saif and his band, whatever they may be, is a small percentage, but it is there. second, i think it's going to be hard. these are people who have all the right wills to have a country based on democratic values that they've seen on tv but have never lived. that's the problem. for decades they've lived under this totalarian system or authoritarian system, or they've

had some tribal codes they've lived under. nothing like what is going to be necessary now in the modern world with the eyes of the world on them. the journalists still there in force watching every single speck, move they make. and that's one of the hardest things. when you win a military victory. because the journalists stay, and they watch everything, and they see every flaw in the human rights groups are going to be there watching every mistake they may make. and they're going to see what it's like to have the eyes of the world on them. and it's not easy even in the best of circumstances. when you have a situation with no ftraditions, it's particulary hard. >> i was just going to ask you that. there is a flip side to that. this is what we're seeing compared to egypt. egypt is a country with a lot of state institutions but entirely co-opted by the regime. now people are struggling because they removed the dictator, but they haven't removed the dictatorship. in some cases, libya is at a

slight advantage. they're building the state from zero. they don't have institutions. they don't have private universities, labor unions. now all these things are going to be formed at the very beginning on the right foot. the question is can they get everyone to play along? can they put the mechanisms in place to be sure everyone's voice is being heard? it was a regime that essentially mon monoplized every aspect of life for 42 years, and now they're starting from scratch. some people will say that's good. they're not trying to purge, as we're seeing in egypt, state institutions, labor unions, corporations from people that were so loyal to the regime, and that, some say, could be a positive step for the libyans. >> it is extraordinary, isn't it, general, that so much of the population of this country does not know a libya without this leader? they will not know what it's like not to have this dictatorship? >> yeah. well, you know, the other thing i might add, though, when we talked about institutions.

it was a small group. it was gadhafi and his family members. in some cases there are institutions. gadhafi created winners. there will be enormous appropriate animosity between these factions, and i think there will be a struggle to eradicate those who dominated society for 42 years. i would be very cautious about thinking this is a pastoral society that will start over. there were a lot of thugs in libya that stayed to the very end. >> thanks to all of you. the developments in libya are coming in to msnbc's news room as we speak. we'll continue to keep you up to the moment with complete coverage of the report of capture and possible death of moammar gadhafi. coming up at 10:30, senator robert menendez, a member of the senate foreign relations committee, will give us an update. mucinex,

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new information coming in from the associated press. u.s. officials tell them that libyan leaders are informing the u.s. officially of moammar gadhafi's death. the u.s. still isn't officially con firnlifirming it. the state department isn't saying it. the white house isn't saying it. there are multiple reports that gadhafi is captured and killed. there have been celebrations on the streets of libya. i'm joined by ken blackwell, former u.s. ambassador to the human rights commission and member of the u.s. council on foreign relations. and professor dyson, a sociology professor. ken, as a former ambassador, let me start with you. it would be difficult to

overstate the significance of this, wouldn't it, and the brutality that has been going on in libya for the past four decades. >> absolutely. in this situation, we have a dictator that has repressed his own people, been an aider and abettor of international terrorism taken out, if the reports are confirmed. this would be a blow to international terrorism as we move forward. fortunately for us, we have been on the right side of the libyan rebels. even when we've had our doubts about their authenticity, the reality is that they have pursued and prosecuted an effort that will hopefully have gadhafi no longer around to pursue

international terrorism. >> and this is another in it a long line of international security victories for the president. we could go on and on. there's this one, and then osama bin laden was killed earlier this year, anwar al awlaki, samir khan. we have the graphic here. why do you think the polls show 61% of the americans approve of the jobs he's doing in handling terrorism, why do you think he doesn't seem to get overall credit? >> it seems to be a reverse effect of the reagan teflon, where nothing negative stuck to him. it seems the president can't get the kind of symbolic and substantive victories of the enormous changes he's wrought by his form of diplomacy and by strategic intervention. and i think partly a great degree of this has to do with the unrelenting pummelling that he's endured by far right forces, which are suspicious and

skeptical of his leadership to begin with, and then don't see legitimate credit or recognition for the victories he's accumulated. so i think that the constant and relentless argument that this man knows nothing about foreign policy will not be good for american interests throughout the world, have been constantly and consistently repudiated by the enormity and the magnitude of the victories he's been able to amass. and not only the enorm and magnitude of them, but the strategic and symbolic value of these victories. as mr. blackwell indicated, for containing global terror threats and for reinforcing the legitimate aspects of american interests. although we're always cautious what these interventions might mean and how they're arbitrarily selected, the reality is the president has been quite effective. i think that the right wing's inability to acknowledge that and the relentless attack upon him in the public sphere has reduced appreciation for those victories. >> i want to show some new video

and warn people first this is very graphic. this is reported to be obviously moammar gadhafi. we had showed you a still picture that was taken by revolutionary forces, by rebel forces, and they say this is proof positive, this video, in addition to the still photo that they sent, of a bloody man who looks like moammar gadhafi. they say this is proof that the libyan dictator is dead. and mr. ambassador, as we move forward -- and, obviously, foreign policy has become a big part of the debate over the budget, over what to do moving forward, this was a very policy. it was sort of a leading from behind strategy that the president used, without spending billions of dollars, without committing major air power, allowing nato to take the lead. what do you think the implications are for foreign policy the way that the president has handled this? >> well, i think, as dr. dyson

has indicated, in the area of foreign policy, we'll move on to the next challenge. right now there's going to be a real focus on whether or not the president's timetable for a draw-down of troops in outer parts of the middle east, iraq, afghanistan, if, in fact, the draw-down is too drastic, if he's actually taken away the infrastructure to check the troops that we do leave there on the ground and whether or not we will see a reaggression of the advances that have been made both in civic institutions as well as military stability. so there are always going to be issues that will focus our public's attention. he is the commander in chief, and as truman used to say, if it's too hot, get out of the kitchen.

>> ken blackwell, michael eric dyson, thanks to both of you. once again, still waiting for confirmation from the white house about the death of moammar gadhafi, but the pictures that have been sent out by rebels on the ground in libya after strikes this morning, they say that this is the body of the dictator who ruled libya for 42 years. our coverage continues after this. time for your business small business advice. choose the right place to host your video content. third parties like youtube will help maximize total views. keep it less than three minutes, and attach a text transcript to your video. it lets search engines get a better read of your content. for more, watch your business sunday mornings at 7:30 on msnbc. we know a place where tossing and turning have given way to sleeping. where sleepless nights yield to restful sleep. and lunesta can help you get there,

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we were talking going into this segment about gadhafi and the terror and his reign of terror for the last 42 years. in fairly short order, he's gone, osama bin laden is gone. >> this administration has killed or supplied information that led to the capture and then killing, in this case, of gadhafi, the two people, the two terrorists responsible for the most deaths of americans in terrorist actions. before osama bin laden, gadhafi was responsible for the most american deaths in a terrorist incident in pan am 103. so it is very significant that the united states was involved to a degree in this operation. the direct american role is still unclear, but had there not been american involvement in libya, gadhafi would still be alive, probably still be in power. >> we're only several hours into this but still a lot of confusion about how he died.

>> there are two versions of events. the first version of events is that there was a convoy moving around sirte early this morning. sirte, of course, gadhafi's hometown. that convoy was hit by a nato strike and the people involved in that convoy were killed, including gadhafi. >> nato is confirming that strike? >> nato is confirming that a strike took place but no information about who exactly was in the convoy. the initial reports early this morning, when we first started to go with the story, were that's how gadhafi died. more recently, however, we're hearing consistent reports coming from the rebels themselves. gadhafi was hiding inside a drainage ditch. he was pulled out of the drainage ditch alive, and he was killed by the rebels who captured him and that it was the rebels who were responsible, that the rebels took possession of gadhafi's body, and that they have been airing those photographs. we have also spoken to a witness who said that he saw gadhafi as

he was dying and hit him with a shoe. so there does seem to be more evidence that gadhafi, while he was in rebel hands, has died and succumbs to his injuries. >> are you surprised that he went back to sirte? >> i was surprised. i've been saying that i thought -- and nobody really knew where i was -- and there were many reports suggesting similar things -- that he was somewhere in the desert. that he would have been nearer to the algerian border. some of his family members went to algeria. he'd moved some money to algeria. i think that would have afforded him a much greater possibility of escape. instead, he went back to sirte, which is his hometown, and dug in. and he dug into a place which is surrounded by remember l hes, where there's no real access to the sea. sirte is close to the mediterranean, but there's a road and a small patch of desert separating it from the sea.

and rebels around him on all sides in the desert. he went back there. he dug in. but there was very little possibility for him to escape from there. >> and let me ask you -- and we were talking about this earlier again. but as someone who's spent so much time in the region, what's your sense of how much trouble now the remaining pro-gadhafi forces could cause? >> not very much. the pro-gadhafi forces, they're mostly worried about their own survival. in places like ben-e whalid and also in sirte. if the rebels can convince them, some of gadhafi's tribesmen that their conflict is over, there won't be any more fighting, then perhaps they can have reconciliation, and the people that are afraid for their lives will stop fighting.

>> could you see the possibility of some sort of elections within six, eight months, a year? >> absolutely. i think that's what the libyans want. they're going to have to stop being a rebel movement. gadhafi is now dead, apparently. video suggesting very strong video suggesting he is dead. the rebels have to stop being rebels. they've got to stop driving around with pickup trucks with anti-aircraft guns mounted on the back, and they have to start acting like a government. change the clothes. no more sunglasses. no more berets. and i think they have to put that side of their -- or of this conflict behind them. >> many of us are going to continue to follow a fast-developing stories. they're still working to confirm those reports. the video and the pictures that would seem to confirm the depth of moammar gadhafi.

you can see there's an urgency to try to determine if the reports are true or false, but they are not going to confirm out of an abundance of caution until they're convinced that this 42-year dictator is indeed gone. we'll be talking, coming up, to robert menendez, a senator, a member of the foreign relations committee, and we'll take you live to libya as well right after this break. with b vitamins, the first and only one to help support a healthy metabolism. three smart new ways to sweeten. same great taste. new splenda® essentials™. [ kid ] dad? who is honus...wagner? no idea. let me see that. that's a honus wagner autograph... the hall of famer? look at this ball! yeah, found that at a yard sale. i thought pickles would like it. [ dog barks ] that a new car jerry? yeah... sweet, man. [ male announcer ] the audi a8. named best large luxury sedan. ♪

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the problem ? a burden no other agency or company bears. a 2006 law that drains 5 billion a year from post-office revenue while the postal service is forced to overpay billions more into federal accounts. congress created this problem, and congress can fix it. continue to follow the breaking news on the reported death, confirmed death of moammar gadhafi. let's go live to the pentagon and nbc's jim miklaszewski. jim, what's the latest you're hearing? >> chris, there is still question about how, if he is indeed dead -- and the evidence points to that fact -- how moammar gadhafi was killed. nato acknowledges they indeed launched an air strike on a convoy outside sirte today, but there is no confirmation that moammar gadhafi was actually in that convoy. instead, rebels on the ground are telling reporters, western reporters, they had to drag

moammar gadhafi out of a large irrigation pipe, and video that has appeared on al jazeera shows the rebels turning the body over. those that have looked closely at this video say it appears there was a gunshot wound to the back of gadhafi or the side of his head. just yesterday, secretary of state hillary clinton in tripoli this week, almost feared that this is the kind of thing that would p ha. she was warning in several public appearances in tripoli that the -- that libyan people have to think not about retribution, not about settling scores, but looking ahead to the future. but as it appears that gadhafi may have been executed by the rebels themselves, it appears that, at least that group for one, may not have been listening. >> jim miklaszewski, thanks so much. let me bring in senator bob menendez. democrat from new jersey and a member of the senate foreign relations committee.

senator, what are you hearing about moammar gadhafi, and what's your reaction to what appears to be his death? >> well, as it's been said, we don't have u.s. confirmed reports. we're being very cautious. i think the expectation is this is likely to be true. as someone who sponsored the no-fly zone resolution, i'm glad to see the conclusion is a new day for the libyan people. the real question, as the celebration goes on in libya, is where do we go from here? what do the libyan people ultimately end up with? the transitional national council really to move vigorously into the next phase? which is hopefully to have a country that is all inclusive in its representation and is more secular and democratic at the end of its journey. >> the conclusion about the u.s. policy in this case, and as you said, you supported it, obviously, is very positive of the no-fly zone in place. taking action in libya.

letting nato take the lead here. going forward and understanding the challenges that will face this country, what can and should the u.s. role be? >> of course, you know, chris, our foreign policy and our actions depend upon our national interests and our national security. so i don't think there is a cookie cutter approach to the region or the world. you have to look at each of the unfolding situations and think about what is the national interest and security of the united states? and as we did in this case, whether or not you can bring the international community along with you, which is critically important. and so right now i think the one role the united states should be playing is working with the transition on national council to ensure that the final chapter of this story ends up being one in which we have a libyan government that is all inclusive

and democratic and secular at the end of the day. that will be a good enterprise for them because they've had a full decade plus dictatorship and not the roots of democracy. this is a diverse country with different tribes. bringing it all together is critically important. >> when you say the u.s. is working with a transitional council, what form do you imagine that would take? >> certainly, working with them on the structure of what their government may look like, giving them expertise, certainly looking at the assets that we have frozen in the united states and thinking about how those assets are flowing, once again, to a legitimate government. also, telling the transition on national council what we expect of them. one of the things i hope that i have been pressing is that we will have all of the information that exists from the transitional national council

and the outreach now of the interim government and the future government, i hope, will give us all of the facts and access to those individuals in the bombing of pan am 103 that killed 270 citizens and 34 from my home state of new jersey. that's a condition that i'd like to see make sure that they live up to. when the tnc was here months ago looking for some of the freezing of their assets, i raised that question with them. it is my expectation that they will live up to that. >> we should point out, senator, you introduced the pan am accountability act and so many in the united states for whom there are unanswered questions. give us an idea specifically of what you think we can learn and what you're hoping the united states will get now to let us understand what exactly happened there and the accountability that still lies with the libyan government from moammar gadhafi.

>> very likely, the person that ordered that bombing is likely to be dead today, and that moammar gadhafi. to believe that el megrahi was the convicted bomber and ultimately returned to libya in an oil deal that was struck, to believe that only he could act alone is pretty unbelievable. so getting to all the assuspects of who should be brought to justice for not only the termination of the bombing but its execution is important to give justice to these families who have for years not had that justice. the only semblance of justice they had was in the conviction of al megrahi, who was in a scottish prison and was released because gadhafi put a lot of pressure to have 4i78 him relea. it's likely the person who ordered the bombing, gadhafi himself, has been killed today, but others should be brought to justice so that we can give a final chapter to the pan am 103

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they do? yup. so you were checking me out? yup. [ male announcer ] progresso. 40 soups 100 calories or less. we are just getting word at jansing and company that at 11:00 eastern time, 15 minutes from now, the u.n. secretary general will have comments about the reported death of moammar gadhafi. for 42 years the dictator in libya. although, again, the white house not confirming his death, all indications are that he has been killed. we want to get a quick update from wall street and see if the markets are react to go these developments out of libya. cnn's mandy drury is here with wlas moving your money. >> a lot of focus on what's happening with the oil prices. only down 45 cents. not a huge move in terms of the crude market. it does remove one risk to a sustained ramp-up in libyan production. prior to the civil war's start

back in february, libya was pumping 1.6 million barrels a day of crude. now, of course, we could see a more rapid return of production. keep in mind, libya has already been increasing its oil flows and has issued a tender for exports of crude oil in early november, including a cargo of crude for the first time in months since the outbreak of violence in libya. there are other things affecting oil prices, things like larger than expected declines in u.s. oil inventories. but at the same time, global demand because of the global slowdown is hitting a 13-year low in october. >> thank you, mandy. i'm sure you could hear the gunfire in the background. this is sirte. this is where reportedly moammar gadhafi was captured and killed. you see the celebrations going on in the streets there. make no mistake, there is still a road ahead because this is a country where probably most of the people, if not all the people, you're seeing in the

picture do not know a libya without moammar gadhafi. let me bring in michael singh, a former director in the middle east. give us a sense in a couple of days, a couple of weeks what the priorities will be as we move forward. >> chris, this is tremendously important what happened today for libya because i think that libyans felt they were in a state of limbo before. tripoli had fallen, and yet there were these major pockets of resistance, and gadhafi was still at large. now they can really move forward. the question is will they be able to move forward? i think the first thing that needs to happen is, as richard engel was saying earlier, the rebellion is over. these fighters need to be demobilized. the militias need to be disbanded and turned into a real army. so this doesn't become something like a civil war. the descendant of another armed struggle. then they need to devise a plan what happens next, how do they get to elections?

how do they build the institutions that are required to support a democracy. as far as i know, chris, there is no such plan. this is a lot of work ahead of this. >> we just heard from the senator jensen who said the u.s. needs to take a role on this. and we heard from the u.n. secretary general. who is likely to give them guidance as they move ahead? >> the fact the united states led this nato intervention or at least played a role in the nato intervention will put us in a good position, will put western countries in a good position. i think it showed this intervention was the right thing to do. we've reestablished our embassy there. we've reestablished a libyan embassy here in washington, d.c. we'll have normal relations presumably with libya as it goes forward. we'll be advising them on economic issues, oil issues, political issues, and so forth. i think we need to do our best to steer them in the direction that we'd like to see them go

and that libyans themselves would also like to see them go. >> i would like to say we just got a report that moammar gadhafi's body has been moved to a mosque in misrata. again, we don't have confirmation of this, but a lot of these reports are coming in from the ground. we're passing them along to you. we do not have confirmation of that. as they move towards this national transitional council and potentially, michael, toward elections sometime early next year, even potentially in the next six or eight months or so, what are the biggest sort of obstacles that you see? what are your biggest concerns. >> there are huge obstacles. we have to keep in mind this is a 42-year trauma that the libyan people have suffered. and it will take a long time, years, even decades, to really fully complete a transition. libya, unlike egypt, unlike other countries, is not left with any institutions upon which to build a democracy. there are no courts, no political parties, no civil society actors of any kind. one question will be really how

quickly can you move towards elections without this institutional foundation for democracy? and then the other big challenges is right now you do have all these arms groups, whether in tripoli or other parts of the country, and they need to be willing to put down their weapons and go back to their jobs. either lawyers or students or doctors. but they need to be demobilized. >> michael singh, it's good to see you. thanks so much for lending your expertise. >> thank you, chris. >> i want to go to nbc's kristen we wi welker live at the white house. nothing yet, kristen? >> reporter: that's correct. white house officials are working hard to figure out whether these reports are true or false. they also tell me they understand there is an urgency to try to get some sort of confirmation either way in this matter, but out of an abundance of caution, they're not going to comment until they have that confirmation. remember this summer when

tripoli fell, there were certainly a number of conflicting reports out of the region. so it's imperative to get this right before speaking out on it. what they're looking for is visual confirmation, either a photo or firsthand account from a u.s. asset on the scene. remember president obama came out this summer. he was in martha's vineyard when tripoli fell. he recognized the tnc from that moment moving forward as the legitimate government of libya. so this would be quite significant if these reports are true that gadhafi is, in fact, dead because it would allow the tnc to move forward with their transition. it would also be significant for president obama. this would be yet another foreign policy success for him. now, i want to read from something, our own nbc's mike viqueira just interviewed secretary of state hillary clinton. he is traveling with her there in islamabad, pakistan. and this is what she had to say about these reports. she's also not confirming them, we want to point out, but she said, "if he is removed from the

picture, i think there's a big sigh of relief. the job is still daunting, but they won't be quite as worried." they meaning the tnc and the people of libya, of course. so, chris, a lot of people working very hard to try to confirm these reports but being very cautious about doing so until they have confirmation on the ground. >> as you point out, the latest in a big string of anti-terrorism victory for this administration, osama bin laden, and now apparently moammar gadhafi. thank you, kristen.

earlier today, the last major strong hold of moammar gadhafi's forces overrun in his hometown of sirte. this video sent by the rebels, they say this is moammar gadhafi. they say he is dead and has been taken to a mosque. no confirmation from the u.s.,

but if this is indeed true, it obviously is a lot of concerns he can somehow put together some sort of force that would go against -- a guerrilla force that would go against the revolutionary council that is in place. now it looks as though they may be able to move forward with the first democratic government since moammar gadhafi took control 42 years ago. you sigh the celebrating in the streets of sirte as well as tripoli and throughout libya. that's going to do it for me this hour of jansing and company. i'm chris jansing. thomas roberts is up next and will have continuing coverage of this major development throughout the day here on msnbc. to be more environmentally aware, we are now printing on the back sides of used paper and we switched to fedex cause a lot of their packaging contains recycled materials. tell them what else fedex does. well we're now using more electric trucks and lower emission planes. we even offer a reusable envelope. now, can't we at least print on the back sides of used paper? what's the executive compensation list...?

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