time for one quick e-mail. what do you got? >> hey, willie, from richard, he writes, i'm awake because i had foot surgery this past wednesday and was experiencing a little pain. i got up, made some herbal tea, and turned on the show. >> we hope -- foot surgery's a broad concept. it could be an ingrown toenail or a full amputation, i hope you fall towards the ingrown toenail. "morning joe" starts right now. madame secretary, thank you for joining us. are you in herman cain's famously designated

becky-becky-becky-stan. >> there's a zero, zero, zero chance i'm going to comment on republican politics, but i am in uzbekistan. >> we have mark haleprin. we also have the president of the council on foreign relations, richard hoss back with us. good to have you, richard. >> boy, hillary was at the top of her game yesterday, wasn't she? >> i thought she was great on "meet the press" and really seems like she has a handle on the situation. >> well, there's so many situations. >> so many. >> which -- i mean -- all the situations that people like herman cain don't have a grasp on. if you look at this past weekend. and look at all of the things that have gone down in the news, then you have -- you realize now is not the time to send an

amateur to the white house. so whoever wins the republican nomination better have a firmer grasp on foreign affairs than the current front-runner. look, iraq, what does that mean? we're getting out of iraq. what is that going to mean for u.s. foreign policy? what does it mean that the leader of afghanistan is saying if there were a war between pakistan and the united states, it'd choose pakistan. what does it mean our best and our brightest, our best and our brightest get beaten up, hammered, and slain in front of 15,000 people and a stray dog at the stadium? >> show those boys how it's done. >> what are you doing beating up the boys from west point? >> we do need a win, with respect to our friends at west point. >> they pulled that camera out, and there weren't a lot of people at the -- what field?

>> the dud. dudley field. >> appropriately named dudley field. holy cow, and this karzai guy. come on. >> oh, we're back here at foreign policy again. that's good. yeah, i see how you bounce around like popcorn without the top on. >> and the rangers won. >> richard, seriously. >> go ahead. >> you know what it says, though? it says like recent elections, presidential elections, foreign policy could be the deal breaker for a certain party. president obama's announcement that all u.s. forces will be withdrawn from iraq by the end of this year is drawing some intense criticism. of particular concern is whether the move will help give iran added influence in the region. >> i think it's a serious mistake and there was never really serious negotiations between the administration and the iraqis. they could have clearly made an arrangement for u.s. troops. yes, i'm here in the region, and

yes, it is viewed in the region as a victory for the iranians. i am very, very concerned about increased iranian influence in iraq. >> i would argue that iraq and afghanistan is being run out of chicago -- he's been questioning our success in afghanistan and ended iraq poorly. fumbled the ball inside the ten, i hope i'm wrong about iraq. >> president obama has said from the beginning that combat troops would leave by the end of this year. that should not surprise anyone, but it's equally important to remember that this deadline was set by the bush administration. so it's been a bipartisan commitment, but it was on president obama's watch to show the leadership to be able to fulfill that commitment. iran should look at the region. we may not be leaving military bases in iraq, but we have bases elsewhere. we have support and training

assets elsewhere. we have a nato ally in turkey. you know, the united states is very present in the region. >> secretary clinton also reiterated america's interest in making sure democracy in iraq continues to flourish. a small number of marines is expected to remain at the u.s. embassy in iraq. and some say there'll be bases throughout the country, soft power. >> right. >> helping develop other parts of the country. >> you know, richard, you look at john mccain's response. i thought it was thoughtful. he obviously was critical of this administration. but at least thoughtful. and yes, we have to be concerned about iranian influence in iraq. then you look at lindsay graham talking, you know, he fumbled this, the president fumbled this, his decisions are being made out of chicago. he could've said made out of austin, texas. because as you know, this time line is not barack obama's time line. it's george w. bush's time line. >> well, if you're worried about

iranian influence in the region, that was actually one of the most significant historical consequences of the war itself. but removing saddam hussein, by weakening iraq, by creating an iraq that was divided by sects, you created a situation where iran was going to be the dominant country in that part of the world. this potentially exacerbates it. because, again, you probably should've -- not probably, you should have an american presence if you could. but the answer is you probably couldn't because the iraqis resisted the politics, the coalition. weapon wouldn't accept an situation where american soldiers were subject to iraqi law. the jury's out on that, certain people think yes, certain people think no. but the bottom line is the war itself set in motion historical forces in which iran was likely to gain influence, and partly because iraq itself has a plurality if not a majority of shiite. >> and you look at the leaders of iraq, the religious leaders of iraq from the very beginning.

and they have been skeptical of the iranian experiment from 1979. >> sure. >> and from the very beginning, the most powerful clerics in that country, have said no, we're not going to go the way of iran. >> that's true, you're not going to have the fusion of political power. that's an iranian experiment. >> which the iraqis have seen and the iraqis clerics have rejected. al sadr is seen as a joke in his own country by the more senior clerics. >> there's something called geography. the united states is several thousand miles away, and whether we kept 3,000, 10,000 people there, we're in the post-american era of iraq. iran sits next door. and no matter what, through all sorts of mechanisms, iran is going to have significant influence in iraq. >> and i'm crazy enough to believe -- i'm crazy enough to believe that the influence that we're going to see is possib possible -- the possibility of

what's happened in iraq from 2003 forward influencing iran. as thomas friedman said back in 2003, he was writing a column saying he went to iran after the invasion of iraq. and he was actually cornered by angry iranians, not that we invaded iraq, but that we had not invaded iran. he said we want to be free. >> i think there's two big political questions. could a better deal have been negotiated? the administration chose not to have high-level negotiations, that is maybe the area where they're most open to criticism. but the other is, yes, there are american forces elsewhere in the region, but there is some argument to be made that having 3,000, 5,000, 10,000 troops in iraq on the ground symbolically and substantively allows us to react better. not only to deter influence, but to react. lindsey graham's main criticism, all the sacrifice we made in the country could be undone if the country comes apart now.

>> but that's the same argument in afghanistan. with all due respect to lindsay and for you for quoting him, we can stay in afghanistan for another decade. and it would all come apart a decade from now. the same with iraq. >> but they're not equivalent. after eight years and over 4,000 lives and $1 trillion in american cash. i think we've done our fair share. and if the iraqis are still ill-equipped to handle it eight years later, well, then we'll just have to take it from there. but we can't -- we can't be an occupying power for another decade. we can't be an occupying power for another five years. willie, i'm sorry. >> no, i just wonder -- and this to you, richard, the 3,000 to 5,000 troops proposed a couple of months ago will not be left behind now. what difference would that have made? a symbolic force? >> yeah, symbolic force to dampen down the tensions between

and among the sects. people were hoping it was a kind of a blanket, a dampening down of the possibility that ethnic and sectarian tensions are going to start up again. is a 3,000 or 5,000 force that significant? no. and we've made such an enormous investment. more than 4,000 lives, 30,000 casualties, more than $1 trillion. for a small investment, would we have increased the odds things would not have come off the rails? i think yeah. so i would have said yes, it was worth it. we department negotiate it. could we have negotiated it? the jury's out. iraq is largely left to its own devices, and we're going to see how it plays out. i believe this increases the chances, it gets rougher around the edges. >> how many people do you hear talking about foreign policy on the campaign trail? >> very little.

mostly foreign policy's talked about as something republicans are using to criticize the president and the status quo without laying out a vision that's breaking through. but as you know, jobs is going to be the dominant issue and candidates aren't that interested in fighting on other things. >> if they criticize the president on this decision, i think the very, very reasonable response is this is bush's timetable, which is smart of this president to stick to because at some point, the republicans have to own up to the fact that they were a part of this. and was it worth it? hillary clinton had the best answers for that yesterday, and that's history will prove it. >> but also, part of it is the legacy of iraq and in some ways is going to be no more iraqs. this sort of massive undertaking for very uncertain results. you've had iraq, you've had afghanistan. i think the era of this massive u.s. involvement is over. >> i was going to say, we used to debate in the armed services committee whether we can fight two simultaneous wars in two different theaters. >> sure. >> or would we be too stretched.

this was the quaint little debate we would have in armed services committees, hearings back in the 1990s. of course, you had the debate and in a different theater. we have been fighting, though, now two different wars in two different theaters for a decade. it's just unsustainable. and you're right, we've got to turn the page. we can't be an occupying power. >> when you were having those debates, no one presumed that it was acceptable to have the stress on the military that we now have. >> it's not. >> it's not. but that shows just how much policy makers have been willing to go well beyond what was considered acceptable before. >> what we are doing to our military families is absolutely horrific. >> that's why what's happening in libya and other places, this is actually the future now. much lighter footprint, much smaller involvement, maybe some special forces on the ground, drones or what have you offshore. but for the foreseeable future,

this is how we're going to pursue our enemies. remember bob gates in his farewell speech, you need your heads examined. we're not going to repeat the experiments. >> let's go to afghanistan, where hamid karzai responded to a question about a hypothetical conflict between pakistan and the united states. speaking with a private television station karzai said quote, this. if fighting starts between pakistan and the u.s., we are beside pakistan. >> wow. isn't that -- wait. hold on a second. hold on. wait, wait, wait -- isn't this the guy that the foreign policy leaders come on the show here say we're fighting and dying and we need to stay another decade for that guy? >> he goes on to say if pakistan is attacked -- >> are you sure this isn't a misprint? >> no. and if pakistan needs afghanistan's help, afghanistan will be there with you. >> young men and women are

fighting and dying in afghanistan for a man that said he would side with pakistan in a war against the united states. >> this war is ill-advised, unwarranted at this point. we are involved in a local, civil, and regional war, where vital u.s. interests are not at stake. and at the end of the day, no matter how much we accomplish, six months a year later, you will not see massive traces of everything the united states sought to bring about. this is truly misguided, it should be wound down, not completely eliminated, be uh we should wind down our involvement there at a far faster rate than we are. >> i can make an argument that keeping troops in iraq would be far more in the united states interest than keeping troops in afghanistan. this is an absolute nightmare. you don't have leaders of iraq saying the things that -- and, of course, i'm glad we're getting out of iraq. but, you know, the president campaigned in 2008 that afghanistan was the good war.

he tripled the number of troops and iraq was the bad, bad war. and so he got out of there. i think the president needs to be withdrawing us from afghanistan as quickly as iraq. >> remember, this is the same guy, our partner, said he was entertaining offers to join the taliban, now he says he'll side with pakistan. this is the president's next great challenge. he got bin laden, pulling the troops out of iraq, now afghanistan sits as the monster in the room. how does the deal with it? >> and how does he do it especially when according to rick perry we don't even know where he was born. >> exactly, willie, rick perry didn't go there, did he? he's having a tough time. >> he says he's not sure. >> come on. >> is he grasping that desperately? >> are you sure pluto exists? it's not a planet anymore. >> those are different questions. >> have you been -- >> so in true rick perry fash n fashion, i love this, if you're reading the transcript, and we're going to ask you two to reenact this if you could.

i want you to take note, there's one bizarre moment in there. >> yeah. >> when the interviewer asks perry, hasn't he -- how does he not know that he's from the u.s.? he's seen the birth certificate, and then perry blurts out. well, he's never seen my birth certificate. >> what? >> i'm like -- exactly. let's go to tape. >> i'm doing this under pressure. i asked we do this with finger puppets. >> we don't have budget for that. "parade" magazine. >> governor, do you believe that president barack obama was born in the united states? >> i have no reason to think otherwise. >> that's not a definitive yes. i believe he -- >> i don't have an definitive answer becse he's never seen my birth certificate. >> what does that mean? >> i'm so tempted to ad lib, but i won't. >> you've seen his. >> i don't know, have i?

>> you don't believe what's been released? >> i don't know, i had dinner with donald trump the other night. >> and. >> that came up. >> and you said? >> i don't have any idea. it doesn't matter. he's the president of the united states, he's elected. it's a "distractive issue." >> it does distract. >> interesting. it's a distractive. is that a misprint too? it's a distractive issue. >> like coal is a distractive industry. >> you have one disturbing set of candidates in your party. i'm sorry. it's disturbing. they're either walking around with slogans or they're crazy. okay? >> or in some cases, both. >> or in some cases both. right. i mean, seriously, pick your poison. >> i've got no defense of this. >> i'm sorry. >> that's why i write a column every week on my party. i think this.

it's so funny, i've got these republicans say, hey, you're not a real republican anymore. >> no, actually -- >> i am, it's just -- this is lunacy. this is the sort of thing that not so many years from now, richard hoss, people will look back at these candidates and say what idiots, what total, absolute idiots. i suspect we'll have, you know, we'll do what republicans do, there'll be a shakedown, all the idiots will be thrown overboard, and we'll end up nominating a really boring gerald ford, bob dole, john mccain type and get mitt romney and maybe lose. there's got to be some sane conservatives out there. >> you've got a lot of them not running. jeb bush, chris christie. >> let me ask you this -- so you named the people that i say i would love to run. paul ryan he didn't run, jeb bush, he didn't run, chris

christie, he didn't run. mitch daniels didn't run, haley barbour didn't run. the conservatives, the real conservatives decide not to run? >> i actually think you would be in the best position to answer that. what about this process takes so much out of people, their personal lives, their privacy? what it does to you for a year, year and a half that people who are talented and qualified people have opted out. >> the people that jump in are people that have nothing to lose. that have everything to gain with bigger book deals, better speaking deals, better everything. where these establishment figures who are true conservatives, like jeb, say i'm not going to mess with it. >> and what's exciting, the times we live in, the challenges, are extraordinary. these are historic moments. and you actually need the best and brightest to step up. >> not this year. >> people putting country first. >> can you believe rick perry is trying to bring up the birther

debate again. >> by the way, good job, willie. >> i defer to alec baldwin's rick perry. i'm a cheap imitation. we're going to bring in republican senator john barrasso. >> he's rational. >> there are some, we know this. -- who accused the vice president of using scare tactics to try and pass the white house jobs proposal. >> he did. >> governor mitch daniels. >> mitch is going to be here! good. >> jill abramson. >> and in a bit -- >> he's got a dog. >> it wears a sweater. >> it wears a sweater. >> dresses up for halloween. >> we should do a week of shows where everyone brings in a dog. >> bill karins has a little dog with a little sweater, and he's got a little sweater -- >> be careful, i might step on

them. >> sane and rational is not the words we've ever used going to weather. not once. well, good morning, everyone. hope you had a wonderful weekend. i think this weekend was pretty much an "a" in many people's books. we're having a pretty decent monday, but carry the umbrella, showers blowing through areas like cleveland, pittsburgh, buffalo, and eventually that'll make it into areas in new england. it's not going to rain that much, probably only about 30 minutes in one location. but if you're outdoors, you're going to want your umbrella. also we a new tropical storm, rina in western caribbean. and we still haven't ruled out south florida towards next weekend. we'll keep an eye out on that. and i said enjoy it, denver today, 79 and sunny, it's going to be 32 degrees and snowing in denver on wednesday. big, big changes underway for areas out west. you're watching "morning joe" on this monday. we're brewed by starbucks. [ man ] i got this citi thank you card

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hey, welcome back to "morning joe." now it's time to take a look at the morning papers. "new york times" says the race to replace senator joe liberman, the former democrat turned independent is still finding ways to irritate his former party. liberman recently held private meetings with republicans. linda mcmahon and chris sheas. let's go to the "washington post" that says will ferrell was honored last night with mark twain's prize for humor. jack black askand conan o'brien presented the award. "the birmingham news." yeah, baby, willie, this is going to be big. let the hype begin. the birmingham news headlines

screams. number one lsu, and number two alabama face off in two weeks. the first time the s.e.c. has had two top-ranked teams meet during the regular season. but willie, you and i said this at the beginning of the year, circle the calendar, that's the battle for number one. >> and they both lived up to it and have two weeks to prepare. >> what's the spread? >> i haven't looked. >> i would guess since alabama's home, maybe they're one or two-point favorites. but both teams are remarkable. i would have said a week ago, willie, alabama was going to win it by a touchdown. they had a really rough first half. alabama for the first time all year looked human and scared me. lsu, by the way, just chewed up and spit out -- >> lsu's making that two-quarterback thing work. now you have oklahoma and wisconsin falling away. >> did you see the end of the wisconsin game?

>> think he was in? >> no doubt about it. >> just by an inch. >> what a game -- i was watching that live after the alabama game. >> me too. amazing. >> i think lsu -- do we think they can beat miami and indianapolis? >> in the super bowl? oh, yeah. >> lsu -- >> alabama -- >> trent richardson would get 300 yards. >> he would. >> did you see richardson's running the other night. >> he's unbelievable. >> he would get hammered at the line. there's the one run they showed from behind where seriously he had about four or five guys on him. super human. you know that guy can squat -- >> it's time for politico, actually. we have a sports cast. >> how much does -- >> he benches 450. and they actually -- that's all they will allow him on the bench. >> i've got one question, mika, how would stanford do against these guys? >> oh, lord. >> against lsu or -- >> they'd hang in there with him.

>> for a quarter. come on. >> no. >> we may find out before this season's over. >> should we talk about this in sports? >> part two of our exclusive discussion about the bcs. >> you'd be hard-pressed outside the s.e.c. that could keep up with lsu or alabama. i don't think anybody could stay within ten points. >> i don't know. >> we will find out. >> patrick. >> patrick, what's going on? >> how are you? >> doing all right. you all right this morning? >> i'm doing great. >> he's sitting here waiting. >> that was the football playbook, now we're switching gears. >> let's do some politics. you're reporting about the uphill climb mr. herman cain is facing in iowa. what do you mean? >> he has a very grass roots campaign he was quick to boast about. but he was in iowa this past weekend, which where by the way, he was winning. but his organization wants to win, he'll have to make it a more professional one. when he got there, he hadn't

coordinated with reporters to get press, nobody taking phone numbers or getting e-mails to add to his list. there was one guy who told one of our reporters that he tried to host a fundraiser for cain in that state and never heard back from him. so herman cain very much, he's proud of this approach, but the reality is, if he wants to remain on top, he's going to have to become a professional politician and get a serious organization. >> mark haleprin, you're back from iowa a few hours ago. who did you like? >> who do iowans like? >> i sat with him during the iowa state game. people recognize him, they love him. he has that celebrity candidate appeal. he's raising over $1 million a week now, he just hired steve grubbs who is a pretty good organizer. and he told me, i know, i need to professionalize this. now that we've got the money coming in, we're going to spend it on building a grass roots

network. he can't build a network that people have built over the past months, but he can harness the enthusiasm. >> you may want to tell him the next time you see him to read "foreign affairs" in the "new york times." and i'm dead serious. if sarah palin had read "foreign affairs" in the "new york times" and "wall street journal" and studied up on foreign policy, it might have helped. >> he is studying up. >> he needs to study fast. >> and one thing if i can add -- if there's one thing he is doing to step up his game. he's now deciding instead of just sort of when a reporter asks him a question on a particular policy position, he's now deflecting it saying i need some time to think about this. when he was asked about ethanol subsidies, he says i need time to think about it. when he was asked about the keystone pipeline from canada and west, he says i need time to think about this. he is learning that lesson because he's had that to walk back off his remarks. >> ignorance is not cute. maybe he's learned that. i guess what i'm saying is, you can spend all the money on grass

roots campaigns you want. if you still can't answer basic questions on foreign policy and keeping america safe, it does you no good. all right. coming up, an incredible story revealed in a new biography by walter isaacson on steve jobs. meeting his biological father without either man knowing who the other was. we'll play you some of that "60 minutes" interview. and tim tebow leading his team on a fourth quarter comeback. plus world series highlights straight ahead in sports. for fan emily skinner, each day was fueled by thorough preparation for events to come. well somewhere along the way, emily went right on living. but you see, with the help of her raymond james financial advisor, she had planned for every eventuality. ...which meant she continued to have the means to live on...

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35 past the hour. live look at capitol hill in washington before the sun comes up. welcome back to "morning joe." another headline this morning, a tragedy in turkey where 239 people have been confirmed dead and over 1,000 injured after a 7.2 magnitude earthquake strikes the country's eastern region. search and rescue teams are now in a race against time to save the lives of dozens of people trapped beneath the rubble of collapsed buildings. the earthquake was turkey's most

powerful in more than a decade. with scientists claiming they have recorded more than 100 aftershocks in the region. the largest measuring 6.0. president obama responded to the disaster saying "we stand shoulder-to-shoulder with our turkish ally at this time." we'll follow that story. time now with sports with willie geist. >> we've turned to sports and if worlds series. saturday's six-run shalacking. pujols hit three home runs, becoming only the third player in baseball history to do that. reggie jackson and babe ruth, the two others. the st. louis bats silent. in the sixth inning, rangers up. the first pitch with a three-run blast. texas up 4-0, and then they left it to 25-year-old left-hander derek collin. we had a great game. collin strikes out molina,

strikes out seven, only two hits over 8 1/3 innings. rangers win 4-0, the series tied at two. a crucial game five in arlington, texas. >> it was great to see him get cheered. >> gave nolan ryan a home run after the runs. to football. the tim tebow era, denver has officially begun. it didn't start pretty, but ended nicely. fourth quarter, broncos down 15 points, tebow in the red zone on the third and three avoids the sack and throws the touchdown. so they get seven points with the extra point and then an on-side kick gives them the ball back and the old tight-end throwback with 25 seconds left. they still need this two-point conversion, though, to tie the game. tebow walks it into the end zone, we go to overtime, and when denver kicks a -- >> if that thing could've gone 70 yards, it was at the top of the net from 52 yards. >> denver scores 18 unanswered

points. 18-15 is the final score with 2:44 left in the game. tim tebow had thrown 4 for 14 for 40 yards. and then he came back and put those two -- >> 24 total yards through the first three quarters. >> what kind of on-side kick? the bobbly one or the straight-line drive? >> the bobbly. >> tebow, they'd be writing bad things about him this morning, but he came back. jets and chargers in the meadowlands, the day belonged to plaxico burress. three touchdowns, that one in the back of the end zone. beat the chargers 27-21. did you see the nbc sunday night game? >> no, i did not. >> saints and colts in new orleans. wait until you hear the final score. peyton manning, take the rest of the season off, this one's lost. gets mixed up, the saints

recover. and the other side of the ball, drew brees had his way, 325 yards, five touchdowns. how about this final score, joe? saints 62, colts 7. >> oh, my goodness. 62-7. colts are 0-7. >> by the way, the lions lost again. >> lions lost, packers won. >> you should have seen at center field. still, don't know how to lose. did you see that, or not? >> mike smith's there to shake his hand, the guy just brushes it -- >> not a good loser. the lions. >> we touched on this. show you the bcs standings. lsu, one, alabama, two, oklahoma state, boise state, oklahoma state could lose easily. they've got oklahoma, they've got kansas state. clemson undefeated. you could see boise state slide

up and play lsu or alabama in the title. rugby? what happened. is this the kicking and tackling without the pads? >> who do you think wins? >> alabama against tuscaloosa. >> who will play at home? >> alabama. >> they're big and fast. up next, steve radner back from his trip to china. he'll help us compare the united states and china. we'll be right back.

the other office devices? they don't get me. they're all like, "hey, brother, doesn't it bother you that no one notices you?" and i'm like, "doesn't it bother you you're not reliable?" and they say, "shut up!" and i'm like, "you shut up." in business, it's all about reliability. 'cause these guys aren't just hitting "print." they're hitting "dream." so that's what i do. i print dreams, baby. [whispering] big dreams.

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welcome back. 43 past the hour. joining us now is financier and -- >> how do you say that in mandarin? >> i like it being said in mika. >> fluent in mika. >> this is very exciting.

so we, of course, everybody saw "60 membershinutes" last night. i don't know what this is but -- >> that makes two of us. >> we're actually trying this out on the air. but he's got his charts, and we've decided to put them -- >> is that a -- it's a john madden telestrater. >> let's get to the first one instead of talking about it. >> so you went to china. >> went to china. >> and we're talking about chinese debt. you say china has an aversion, cultural aversion to debt, and yet they're accumulating massive debt right now. >> on one level they are, on one level they're not. i brought a couple of charts. and we can decide at the end of this, which of these countries vanderbilt, and which of these countries are alabama. the u.s. and china -- >> we need willie here for this, but we'll do our best. the fact is when you start with gdp, the u.s. is still now -- of

course, this is not working. >> the u.s. and gdp is $48,000 per person, china is only $8,000 per person. >> huh. >> there we go. so we win in that top category. >> we win in number one. and then you look at growth rate, and china at 9.3% versus the u.s. at 1.7%. it is coming down. >> again, though, it's growing at 9.3%, but look at where we are. it's a lot easier to grow an economy at 9% -- which is something we never hear in all of the news reports. >> i get that. >> i know you get that. but everybody going, oh, the united states is growing at 1% and china's growing at 80 -- well -- >> that's why i wanted to start with the first number so we understand where the bar is. $48,000 for gdp per person in the united states -- >> this has been established. and right as we were trying to establish it, t.j. took the chart from us. creator of "morning joe." so go ahead. >> all right.

so then people talk about an inflation problem in china. and in fact, the u.s. does do a lot better. china's 5.2%, not the end of the world, but it's caused the chinese to pull back and bring their economy down -- >> how is the uninflation trending? >> it has been trending up. and what they've been doing is tightening credit in order to bring it back down. that's created other issues. there are issues in china. i'm not here to tell you china's the only place we should invest the scarborough fortune. then we've come to unemployment where china, in fact, has labor shortages in areas where they're looking for skill workers and wages rising rapidly. it's very different from the picture here. >> let's move to debt. >> okay. >> obviously, do you get a sense there may be a coming china bubble? >> look, there is a china issue, there's no question there's a china issue. the economy went through a lot of the same stimulus we went through, except more so after

the 2008 meltdown, there was a lot of credit extended, probably overextended. there are things that look like bubbles that you would look at as bubbles. but let me get you to numbers that will help explain that. >> and explain before you do that why a chinese bubble bursting would be a disaster for viewers in america watching right now. >> it's interesting, of course, because people don't know whether they should root for china or against china. a strong china creates a set of complications, but a weak china is bad for us, as well. because they won't be able to buy our stuff. their exports will become even cheaper. our trade balance will become more out of whack. it's better for us economically if the world is growing. >> if europe melts down, if china melts down, the united states is in for a rough decade. >> yeah, we are not -- we can't live in isolation, it's an interdependent world. >> and europe is teetering right now. >> europe is teetering. we had a summit this weekend,

they're coming back on wednesday. i think they will pull themselves together and avoid a cataclysm, but it's -- >> confronting some of the same problems that we -- the questions that we confronted in 2008. >> they are. except there are 17 different countries trying to confront them together rather than china. >> so let's go to the next chart. >> okay. so take a look at the debt, which is on joe's mind. if you look at simply -- what we would call federal debt or central government debt, china is way ahead with 17% debt. to gdp, we're at 62, as you know. we won't talk here about the unfunded liabilities. but this next number is the one that i know joe is focused on if i can circle it, which is when you look at all of our debt, state, federal, and local, we're at 93%. china is somewhere above 83% and rising. >> and they're at 80% because of a lot of local transportation projects, massive infrastructure spending? >> a lot of -- yeah, the local

governments have borrowed on balance sheet and off balance sheet a lot of money and spent it on infrastructure projects and things like that. and a lot of them will be bad. >> where do they borrow that money from? >> through these off balance sheet subsidiaries. >> across the world? >> yeah. >> here's the important point. >> has anybody across the world raised a red flag and said, hey, wait a second, maybe we need to take a closer look at just pouring money china's way, letting them borrow for these infrastructure projects? or is that still considered a safe loan? >> i think china still has free access to capital. i know people view it as a safe place. but remember one important difference here also. our 93% of debt, as you have talked about much on the show disappeared into consumption. their 80, 100, whatever it is is building bridges, building high-speed trains. >> they're investing in the future, we're investing in math books. >> they are building a lot of stuff that will be useful to them. >> wow. >> we talk about the chinese

holdings of u.s. treasuries over $1 trillion. let's talk about their foreign exchange reserves. 3.2 trillion of total foreign exchange reserves compared to our $48 billion. it's not the full story of anything, but it's the statement of the strength they've accumulated through their exports. but the last two numbers, ones i would like to focus heavily on. their savings rates. if you look at savings as a total gdp in china, they 51% of their gdp, we save 10%. >> thank you, t.j., creator of "morning joe." >> if you look at the household savings level, what people like you, or mika, or mark would save, we save 5% up from zero -- >> i was going to say. >> they save 39%. can't circle that, but it's 39. 39% of what a chinese family makes, they put it back. >> where do they put it? >> in the bank, typically. >> we want that to come down,

though, we want them -- >> from their standpoint, they are saving and investing. >> i want to stop for one second, though. you look at our savings rate, and as we all were pointing out in 2008, our savings rate was at 0%, and people were bemoaning the fact before the crash that germany's was at 10% and the united states was just consuming, we're at 5% now, even in really difficult times. we're at least going in the right direction. >> we're going in the right direction, and our debt to gdp on the household basis is coming down, but it is still way above historic levels, and that's a conundrum for policy makers. behind the scenes into walter isaacson's new biography on steve jobs. it's fascinating. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." ♪ [ doug ] i got to figure this out.

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so the big steve jobs biography is out today. the walter isaacson book. we'll have him on "morning joe" later on in the week. big "60 minutes" piece last night about the book. one of the most talked about pieces was steve jobs' pursuit of his biological parents. he found his birth mother, birth sister, a woman named mona and

then dispatched his sister mona to find their birth father. steve jobs said he didn't want to meet the guy. sent mona to meet him. turns out it was a man he'd met before a couple of times. >> mona goes to the coffee shop. meets this guy who is running it who says among other things when he asks how sorry he is, but he said he had another child and mona said what happened to him? and he said, i don't know, we'll never hear from him again. and then he says i wish you could have seen me when i was running a bigger restaurant. i used to run one of the best restaurants in silicon valley. everyone used to come there, even steve jobs used to eat there. and she bites her tongue and doesn't say steve jobs is your son. he said, yeah, he was a great tipper. >> and i was in that restaurant once or twice, and i remember meeting the owner who was from

syria, and it was most certainly him. and i shook his hand and he shook my hand, and that's all. >> and jobs never spoke to him, never talked to him, never got in touch with him. never wanted to see him. >> that's the amazing part about it. even after this huge revelation you think would send chills up your spine, he says, eh, i don't want to meet the guy. >> apparently jobs had heard things about him and decided he wasn't a good person. >> exactly. didn't want that man in his life. it was a fascinating interview. i cannot wait. walter will be here on thursday to talk about this book. >> what shocked me most about it was he was -- he tried his best as a billionaire and really the thomas edison of our age to have a normal life. no household help, back doors unlocked. >> he decided in the beginning he was want going to let money

change him. he said they were buying rolls royces and their wives were getting plastic surgery. >> i wish we would've followed. >> exactly. >> you created "morning joe." >> yes, i loved your original chin. the botox. literally went to my head. senator john barrasso next on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] the peace of mind of owning a 2011 iihs top safety pick. the all-new volkswagen passat. a 2011 iihs top safety pick. a 2011 iihs top safety pick. ♪ we're centurylink... a new kind of broadband company committed to improving lives with honest, personal service, 5-year price lock guarantees and consistently fast speeds. ♪

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it's not temporary when that 911 call comes in and the cops prevent her being raped.

it's not temporary to that woman. it's not temporary to the guy whose store is being held up and a gun point in timed at his head if the cop shows up and he's not killed. that's not temporary. >> here's my point. it is a fact, ever since i wrote the crime bill 20 years ago, we've put to rest the notion that if you have more cops, there's less crime. when you drastically cut the number of police in cities, which is happening all across america, crime goes up. that is a fact. now, they either are going to figure out how to help those cities the way we want to help them or some other way. but if they don't want help, crime's going to continue to go up. it's that simple. it's not a political point, it's just a physical reality. >> welcome back to "morning joe." steve rattner and richard hoss are still with us. and joining us now republican senator from wyoming, senator john barrasso. >> senator, let me ask you a

question because -- >> thank you for your support. >> i had a misspent youth in congress. i never once said pass my bill or you'll be raped. this biden thing. >> he did not say that, joe. >> you can put that on a bumper sticker and sell that baby. >> it does seem to me over the top, it seems desperate. the president says the civil language and then we see this language coming out of the vice president. >> that's not what he said. >> of course it's over the top, it's joe biden. >> and the other thing is, you know, rape in flint, michigan, where he was talking about, it went down 11%. one day he says it's gone up 150% -- >> well, he's a politician. 150% up versus down 11%. he's only 161% off. >> or triple, depending on which day he's telling the story. >> it doesn't matter. we love joe. >> you have misquoted him. >> he basically said pass this bill or you'll be raped. let's play the clip again.

and you tell me what he is saying here, t.j., creator of "morning joe." >> can you roll the tape? >> it's not temporary when that 911 call comes in and a woman's being raped and the cop shows up in time to prevent the rape. it's not temporary to that woman. it's not temporary to the guy's whose store is being held up and there's a gun pointed at his head if the cop shows up and he's not killed. that's not temporary. >> translation, crime will go up if you reduce the number of forces on the streets that are fighting crime. the bill increases the number of forces on the street. >> there are a number one of ways -- >> it's not what you said. >> it is what i said! oh, so i get it. i understand what the rules are. that if a republican says something hateful, you will speak out against that as will i, but when a democrat says something that is hateful, you are going to defend it. so are those the rules we play by here now? >> hateful's not the word i

would use, i would say he's extremely nervous about this country, especially given the disparity in it now and the desperation on the streets of this country that we will see bubble over. >> so you were saying that -- hold on, look at me. you are saying because the senator didn't support this bill, he is contributing to the rape of women. >> no. >> no, no, no -- that's exactly what joe biden said. so why don't you look at the senator and ask him whether he thinks that's hateful or not. >> first of all, that's not what i'm saying. you are taking joe biden's words and my words and tieing them up in that knot the way you p want. and senator, i would like to hear what you have to say about biden's statements and why you think they are inappropriate, if you agree with me, say the number of cops on the streets go down, crime will go up. or is he being hateful as joe is saying? >> to me, he's over the top. we have 14 million americans looking for work in this country. we have 9.1% unemployment. harry reid said the problem is

the public sector, not the private sector. the private sector's lost 2 1/2 million jobs in the last two years, there are more government workers now than there has ever been before. we need to focus on those people. the president and now the vice president has taken their eye off of the ball of getting america back to work. and pass this bill now, they're pivoting today to we can't wait. this is the new flavor of the month for the president. it is astonishing. i want to work to get more people working in this country. i want to work with democrats to do that in a bipartisan way. any time we do work together, the president tries to hide that. where was the rose garden signing ceremony for the three free trade agreements? he canceled it because it steps on the message that republicans and democrats do want to work together to get people to work. >> what parts of the jobs bill do republicans like and will sign up for? >> how about the one that has to do with the 3% government hold back on money on government contracts. we took that to the floor of the senate thursday night, scott

brown brought it. ten democrats voted in favor of it, all of the republicans voted in favor of it. it is part of the president's jobs bill, and yet harry reid's saying no, no, we can't let this part pass. there are good parts that have to do with wounded warriors, i want to do that in terms of the -- also one of the tax components of this to make it easier on small businesses. i'm for that. i want to make it permanent not just temporary. >> so there are areas that republicans and democrats can agree on. >> sure. >> i still think it's fascinating, mika, if michele bauchmann had said something like that, that barack obama was contributing to a situation that would lead to increased rapes in america, you would be going crazy right now. the same with herman cain. and i would be agreeing with you. but here you've got the vice president of the united states who suggested before that republicans were hostage takers, and now this time has said pass a bill with a tax increase in it or you are contributing to the

increase of rape and robbery across america, and you want to give him a free pass. it's not consistent. >> i think it was highly emotional when he presented it, but what he was saying, the numbers will go up. >> when rush gets excited and says inappropriate things, emotion's involved there too. you just can't call out the other side and not call out your own. >> look, also, he said it had already gone up, which turned out to not be true. i think it was over the top. i think it wasn't appropriate for the conversation we're trying to have. >> why is it that the president following up on the senator's comments, why is it that the president and the republicans can't make a more public showing of getting together on some of these issues? is it in the president's best interest to look like he's cooperating with republicans? or do you think he's moved past that now, steve? >> i think he's reached a conclusion that he's never really going to be able to cooperate with republicans rightly or wrongly, senator, you may have a different view. and you can see he's out now

campaigning, taking his message -- >> do you think that's a fair conclusion that republicans have stiffed him enough that the president needs to go out on his own and -- >> the senator can disagree, but i think there are some areas where there may be agreement, but when you look at the totality of the $447 billion proposal, i don't sense there's enough agreement to get the bulk of that through the senate and the house at this point. and therefore, the president is back where he is. >> well, we worked with him on the transportation bill, the federal aviation bill, there are things i want to work with him, but there is a philosophical difference in terms of this so-called jobs bill. and we know what didn't work with the first stimulus when the president promised, pass this, we'll keep unemployment below 8%. and what doesn't work is more borrowing, more spending, overregulation and threatening to raise taxes. >> senator, that's fair. and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view. but that is the bulk of the president's proposal that you basically say you've opposed it.

it makes it harder to work together. >> and there are things we can work on to get people back to work. i'm sorry that harold ford jr. isn't here. he had an incredible editorial about jobs and sounded like the republican jobs plan. he talked about 4,000 regulations, talked about the keystone xl pipeline, tens of thousands of people who could go back to work that way. talked about what the governor of new york is doing with fraccing and energy and those $80,000 a year jobs. a lot of jobs to be had right now being impacted by things we could do today. >> and what's scary, it's still 12 months before the election, 16 months before the second obama or first romney or whatever administration takes over. we can't drift for the next 12 to 16 months. the costs of that are extraordinary. and that's what's so worrisome about -- >> that's exactly what it looks like we're doing. we are going to drift for a year because the president's out campaigning, republicans are out

campaigning. and very little compromise. >> and meanwhile, our foreign policy's beginning to bubble over. and maybe even come to the forefront where people clue in on that and say we have a number of big problems on our hands. >> senator, where would you be on the infrastructure bank. it's a relatively small amount of money. it's something that a lot of us believe we should turn our attention to. is that one the republicans can support? >> i don't see that at this point. i want to see the specific details of it, how the funding is, if that comes through taxation. and what's the government's role? the private sector's role in creating jobs in america? and i want to make it easier and cheaper for the private sector to create jobs and so much what i see coming out of this administration makes it harder and more expensive. >> i want to get your insight on some of the major developments over the weekend. president obama's announcement, of course, on friday that all u.s. forces will be withdrawn from iraq by the end of this year is drawing some intense criticism. of particular concern is whether the move will help give iran

added influence in the region. >> i think it's a serious mistake and there was never really serious negotiations between the administration and the iraqis. they could have clearly made an arrangement for u.s. troops. yes, i'm here in the region, and yes, it is viewed in the region as a victory for the iranians. i'm very, very concerned about increased iranian influence in iraq. >> i would argue that iraq and afghanistan's being run out of chicago, not washington in terms of decisions. he's put in question our success in afghanistan, and he ended iraq poorly. he fumbled the ball inside the ten, i hope i'm wrong about what happens in iraq, but they're dancing in the streets in tehran. >> senator, as a member of the senate foreign relations complete, do you have any concerns that reflect senator mccain's? because secretary clinton

reiterated this is bush's timetable. >> you have to not make political decisions, make military-directed decisions. i know a general on the ground in iraq said he thought they needed about 15,000 troops to remain there. i think it's a mistake to pull out everyone on a deadline date. and look at the korean war, we still have over 30,000 troops in south korea. you take a look at world war -- after world war ii in germany, we left 300,000 troops there for decades. so i think to go from where we were to zero is putting out the welcome mat for iran. iran is my concern there. there's a long border between the iraq and iran and it is now a porous border. i think it's a mistake to take everyone out and not leave troops. >> we've been there for eight years, though. and the iraqis were not going to grant immunity to our soldiers. do you really want a kid from kansas to be in iraq and be subject to the whims of al sadrs -- a riot that al sadr

might create and suddenly a kid from kansas gets thrown into jail? >> absolutely not. and we all owe a great debt as a nation to these wonderful men and women who have risked their lives, shed blood, and some lost their lives, in iraq as well as afghanistan. this is where the disagreement is something they would have worked out by the end of the year. >> let's go from iraq to afghanist afghanistan. obviously as you watch the show every day. and maybe even throw things at the tv set once in a while, but you know we're skeptical about afghanistan, a war where we -- we've been over there for a decade. there are generals that want us to stay another decade. and you -- this past weekend you had the head of afghanistan, karzai, saying that if there were a war between the united states and pakistan, he'd choose pakistan. >> it is really astonishing. i've been to afghanistan earlier

this year, iraq four times, afghanistan, a number of times. >> that's who we're fighting for. our young men and women are fighting and dying to prop this clown up. >> well, it's often the choice is between bad and worse. and we're in a situation now with pakistan and its nuclear weapons. we are continuing to try to train the troops in afghanistan to take over. they are getting better. they're not quite there yet. >> for how long? they've had a decade. i don't mean to be short with you, but they've been there for a decade, how much longer? >> i can't give you a time line on that. the president called that the good war -- >> it's not the good war. >> richard hoss, if the choice is between bad and worse, than really, the generals are always going to say we need more troops and more time. >> and the lesson of all this, stan mcchrystal admitted to this, local realities count more than global abstractions. the local realities of pakistan and afghanistan argue against what we're doing.

and that ought to mean we wind down at a much faster rate than the 2014, 2015 trajectory. a lot of americans are going to lose their lives, still spending $2 billion a week. >> $2 billion a week. >> we're not going to have enough to show. >> $2 billion a week to prop up karzai's government when we don't have money to keep our infrastructure up? i -- believe me, i know that there are people in wyoming, in northwest florida, conservatives that say it's not worth that investment anymore. >> and we're borrowing $4 billion a day -- you talk about the infrastructure and the other things in the economy, we're borrowing $4 billion a day, so much of it from china. >> can we afford $2 billion a week to fight a war that props up karzai so when we leave whether it's two years from now or ten years from now, china gets all the mineral rights from afghanistan? that doesn't make any sense. do you agree? >> well, you make a case that is one that is absolutely worth

debating and discussing, and i would listen so the generals on the ground. i've been in north kandahar with general mcchrystal and senator mccain. and we met with a number of -- you talk about the localities of this, met with a number of tribal chieftons and none of those chieftons are still alive. >> we are not going to be commence rate with our investment. and that is a fact of life. >> senator, final question. how do you respond to lindsey graham talking about the possible invasion of wyoming? >> what do the generals on the ground think? >> would you like us to explain to him that that is actually -- a u.s. state. >> it's a beautiful state. the economy is strong because we have low taxes and use our mineral resources wisely. it's less than 6%. >> wow. >> low cost of living, it's a great place. come visit.

>> we will! >> i would love to. >> thank you for coming. >> senator barrasso, thank you so much. >> we love having you on. still ahead, indiana governor mitch daniels and executive editor of the "new york times," jill abramson. our next guest says darwin will be considered the father of economics. robert franks joins us next. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? >> good morning, mika. this will be one of those weird weather weeks where i'm going to be talking about a hurricane and a snowstorm at the same time. snowstorm headed for colorado and we could have a hurricane headed for cancun, mexico. let's introduce you to tropical storm rina. this is in the warm waters of the western caribbean. this is where wilma formed. and wilma went to cancun, then blew over south florida and did a ton of damage there. we'll have to wait and see. it's a slow-moving system. not headed anywhere yet. it'll be the middle to the end of the week. also showers headed toward

cleveland. and denver today, 79 and sunny. look at what happens, 54 with rain changing to snow on tuesday, and we could have a snowstorm in colorado on wednesday. you're watching "morning joe." we're brewed by starbucks. ♪ ♪ ♪ hey! it says just take one! i can't read. ♪ [ male announcer ] walmart has low prices, every day for halloween. from bags of candy to bigger bags of candy. backed by our ad match guarantee. save money. live better. walmart. bacwhoa.y our ad match guarantee. whoa. how do you top great vacations? whoa.

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and with us now is professor of economics at cornell university's johnson graduate school of management and a regular columnist for the "new york times," robert frank. robert's the new author of the new book "the darwin economy." and robert, in this book, you sort of slap adam smith's invisible hand and you say we don't live in smith's world. we live in darwin's world economically. explain that. >> actually, i'm a great admirer of smith's. i think it's a tragedy that students get out of the school not being a great admirer of his invisible hand story.

it's created an enormous amount of wealth in the world, but it's not the whole story. i think for the general story, we have to look to darwin who saw that individual interests sometimes coincide with what's good for society just as in smith's account. but often times, individual interests push squarely against what society's desires want. we've got to look for examples in each category and base policy on which case we're in. sometimes we all stand up to see better and none of us sees better than before. individual interests don't help us in that case. >> i enjoy your books, the winner take all society. but what i'm not clear about from that book and what i've read about this book is what you recommend what we do about it. we have this terrible inequality, we all agree it's bad on social grounds, it may lead to slower growth, but what do we do about it? >> i'm not a fan of meddlesome bureaucratic remedies. i pattern the policies i recommend after the

environmental success stories we've had using effluent fees, charges for congestion, charges for emissions, things of that sort. i think one of the big inefficiencies we have in this economy is for me to achieve my goals, i have to spend more. but since it's relative spending that counts for achieving a lot of goals, you have to spend more to stay competitive. so we each engage in a lot of mutually offsetting spending battles. and simple changes in the tax system could help neutralize a lot of that and free up dollars that could be put to fix bridges and stretches of interstate 80. there's a lot of things we could do useful other than stage coming of age parties for kids and build larger and more lavish mansions. >> you're basically saying tax the rich? >> no, i'm saying tax consumption at progressive rates. you report your income to the irs, like you do now, report how much you save, we do that for

401(k)s. the difference, that's how much you spend during the year, your income minus your savings, and levee a tax on that that starts off very low. it's not a 9-9-9 tax, it's a progressive tax. and then the rates get higher and higher the more you consume. and it gives you an incentive -- if you're wealthy, to put that money into a tax-sheltered investment account, which is what we need more of as you were pointing out in the earlier segment and spend less of it on building a bigger mansion. and the magic thing about the tax is that since it's relative mansion size that seems to matter beyond some point, if we all build smaller additions, nobody's worse off and those dollars go to more useful things. >> sounds like that may be great for the economy in the long run, but you'll have a lot of politicians in washington, d.c. fretting over the fact that will cut consumption, that will slow down the rate of -- >> that's a great point, joe. and as i emphasize, we do not want to implement this policy right now.

we want more spending rather than less spending. ironically, if we passed it into law now and scheduled it for gradual phase-in once the economy was back at 7% or 6.5% unemployment, we'd kill two birds with one stone. the people who are thinking about building an addition on their mansions would rush to do it before the tax took effect. we'd get a massive burst of economic stimulus that wouldn't cost the government one nickel. and in the long run, we'd satisfy people concerned about deficits because we would've committed ourselves to a revenue stream that could be used to save them down and save more and invest more. it's hard to find any reason that anyone left or right should be opposed to this policy. it creates new wealth out of thin air. >> what about long-term fixes and trying to stop disparity from growing to the extent that it has now? and also trying to reignite mobility, which is what the real problems that we're seeing in terms of the disparity.

is anybody, first of all, in washington, doing anything that looks at that right now? >> we're not making the kind of investments that would need to support mobility. we're not investing in education, we're not investing in a lot of the things we need to be spending on. and the reason we're not doing it is because we don't have the revenue. >> right. >> it would be quite easy to raise a substantial amount of additional revenue if we could talk about taxes more openly. taxes on activities that harm other people are not bad for the economy. if we tax congestion, pollution, consumption at a progressive rate, we're actually discouraging activities that cause more harm than good. and that's a good thing to do. >> we have best-selling author wes moore with us. >> yes, and when you look at our international partners, which ones do you think have policies in place or initiatives in place that you think are worth taking a look at that we could look to adopt and incorporate? >> you know, nobody has anything

closer to this policy than we do. virtually all americans operate right now under an exemption provision for tax as much as they want to save, they can save without tax. it's the very rich who are not exempt because the limits on those exemptions quickly run out for them. the europeans have a value-added tax that's not a progressive consumption tax, that's a flat tax in effect. it's regressive. we should not adopt a tax like that. but if we extent the limits on savings exemption, we'd be just where we need to be. that's the model i'm using. >> what kind of tax rate are you talking about? let's say steve rattner decides to build another wing on to his mansion, one of his five mansions in west chester county, he's got about five per county. >> you worry about high marginal tax rates when we're taxing income because that does discourage savings. savings is a part of your income. so we don't want to discourage

that. if we're taxing consumptions, it's a different story. if i were a savvy rich guy, i'd want to move to a place that had a very steep, progressive rate on consumption because i'd say to myself, if i go there, i can build my fortune, if something bad happens, i'll have more stashed away to take care of it. and in the meantime, i won't be blowing all my hard-earned money oncoming of age parties for my kids. >> just to know what to prepare for, what's the rate? >> it could be 100% on the next dollar if you're already consuming $4 million a year. that would mean if you spend an extra dollar, you're got to come up with an extra collar -- joe, this tax is in your interest. >> the thing is, of course, i'm sure -- i don't consume anything, i just eat rice and drink water, warm water. but i had a lot of -- a lot of wealthy supporters back when i

was in congress that always talked about a consumption tax. and they weren't talking about on working class people paying for food. they were talking about what you're talking about, which is let me make that decision. because i'll tell you what, if you keep raising my income tax, all you're doing is punishing me for working harder, and that makes no sense. and so ideologically, this makes a lot of sense for a lot of conservatives who say don't tax me at a higher rate for working my tail off seven days a week. >> i got a nice letter when i first published an article about this tax in 1997. milton friedman wrote me a very warm letter. he said he didn't agree with me that the government ought to be spending more on infrastructure and alike, but he said that if the government did need to raise r revenue, this would be the perfect way to do it. and he enclosed a reprint of his own article in which he'd

advocated a progressive consumption tax as the best way to pay for world war ii. i think we could find common ground on this proposal. >> the book is "the darwin economy." professor robert frank. thank you so much for coming on the show. we're going to drag governor mitch daniels into the presidential race kicking and screaming. this is going to be ugly, kids. wake up your parents. mitch daniels for president next. [ male announcer ] nature valley sweet & salty nut bars... they're made from whole roasted nuts and dipped in creamy peanut butter, making your craving for a sweet & salty bar irresistible, by nature valley.

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i wonder when you look around if you ever thought, hmm, four more years, 2016. have you totally ruled that out in your head? >> i've not -- my one focus now is getting the president reelected. that is the focus. and i'll make up my mind on that later. i'm in probably the best shape of my life, i'm doing well, and i enjoy what i'm doing. and we'll find out -- let's get the president reelected. >> but possibility, you're not closing that door.

>> i'm not closing anything. >> joe biden, '16. >> i love him. >> we love joe. we're not going to deny that fact. i wouldn't use the rape language, but we love joe. >> stop. he didn't. you manipulated the language. joining us from indianapolis is the republican governor of indiana. mitch daniels. mitch daniels. >> he's going to run for president. >> we're thinking you still could maybe -- any time? is there any way? >> pull you in there. >> would you want to? >> 7-7-7. what do you think? >> looking at the field, don't you kind of want to? >> jump in. >> there's nobody i'd rather do it for than you guys, but i'm afraid i'll have to disappoint. we crossed that bridge. >> let's talk about crossing that bridge, and then an issue you've focused on for a long time. that is america's national debt. why is it? and we were lamenting this fact earlier this morning that people like you, jeb bush, paul ryan,

chris christie, serious policy thinkers, conservatives, real conservatives have decided to stay out of this race while we have others in the race that seem to be more interested in selling books than actually governing this nation. >> i don't think there's any one reason. i think probably each of us had a different and individual set of criteria. but you know, in our case, it was a family matter. family decision. and i'm at peace with it. >> all right. well, why don't we talk about one of the main issues the next president's going to have to tackle, and that's obviously our massive national debt. you took a debt to a surplus in indiana. how do we do that in america? >> going to be a lot harder because the problem's a lot bigger. so we better get started now. you know, somebody just calculated that with the next treasury auction or two, we will

reach a terrifying milestone appropriately on halloween. that is to say right around the end of this month, our total national debt will equal 100% of our economy. that's greek territory, that's the area in which somewhere out there there's the point of no return where economies do not recover. so we better get busy on it. i think all honest people know that it starts with reform of the big safety net programs. we have to save them from ourselves, save our economy in the process. your previous guest is on the right general track. we've got to have major tax reform that is pro growth. lower, flatter, more neutral across times, across categories of investment. really, we've got to put this economy, every national decision really has got to be made, tested against the question. will it make the growth of the private economy?

may i underline private since the president doesn't seem to get this. will it make it faster or not? and there is no time to waste on all of those fronts. >> and there's no doubt about it. you know, mika, most economists will say when you get to 90% debt to gdp. it starts a chain, a process. that just causes the economy to slow down, causes the debt to go up, and as the governor said, gets you into greek territory. the fact, mark haleprin, we're going to be at 100% debt to gdp at the end of this month is frightening with real economic consequences for the long run. >> and none of the candidates running for president have given a speech as passionate and clear as governor daniels gave a few months ago shortly before he decided not to run. governor, you mentioned tax reform. i want to ask you that. two of your friends governor romney and governor perry are about to have a big debate not about a flatter tax, but a flat

tax. what do you think about a flat tax, one rate, and in that context, is it important to you to preserve the three big deductions the americans rely on? home mortgage, health care, and charitable? >> flat tax is probably a good ideal target to shoot for. as in every other question you ask, i'm prepared to listen to second and third best choices compared to the paralysis we're experiencing now. but, yeah, in an ideal case, a flat tax, again like your previous guest talked about is restructured one way or another to tax consumption as opposed to investment and savings and hard work. and on the second question, we have -- yes, it ought to include at least some major change in the deduction -- the deduction for health care is a huge economic problem in this country. it ought to be individualized one way or another. let people make their own decisions about their health care. you know, people say we didn't

have any income growth for the last ten years, we had a lot of income growth. but it almost all went to cover the rising cost of health care employees never sought in their paychecks because it was diverted in large part of this tax deduction. we have invested in housing for a long time in this country. and that's money that didn't go into building factories in indiana and other places. and so, yeah, maybe you don't get rid of it, but perhaps a credit, something that helps people buy a house, but has a limit and doesn't -- and isn't open-ended helping the wealthier more than everyone else. >> as we've pointed out several times, you've decided not to run for president. of the republicans who are, is there one that seems competent and capable in terms of doling wi dealing with the problems we are discussing at the table this morning? >> no, not one, there are multiple people who have the right character for this, and i

look forward to supporting one of them when he or she emerges. but, no, i haven't picked one and i'm not sure who would care much if i had. >> i think actually there'd be a lot that would. >> i want to know, actually. >> governor, looking at the current debt trajectory we have, i think we can agree this is not the doing of an administration but administrations. this has spanned over the process of decades. now that you're the chief executive of a state, looking back at your time in retrospect at omb, what do you wish you would have pushed for when you were sitting in the seat of the office of management and budget? >> i guess i wish i'd been more successful, more effective advocate. i advocated for major reductions, for instance, in other spending once the nation committed itself to the war on terror. this is what the nation had done in all previous conflicts. but we didn't as we all know. it's fair to point out that my

failure in making that -- in presenting budgets that suggested that and making that case for offsetting through lower spending, the additional costs of homeland security and the two wars we prosecuted, it's only fair to say that it was republican congresses for the time i was there whose ears were deaf to that. >> no doubt about it. >> i won't raise the biggest deficit of them, which is the colts 62-7 deficit. last night, right where you're sitting, sir. we won't get into that. >> that is hateful. that is hateful! you know what? see, this is the thing, joe biden says pass my bill, our people will be raped, and that inspires hate talk. willie, and so now you're doing this on the colts. >> i tried to gloss over it. i think it'll get better. >> i'm tempted to say that the administration's on a long losing streak and vice president

biden hadn't deserted, so i'm not going to walk off the field just because the colts are having a bad year. >> there you go. >> one last serious question for you. i don't think a lot of people grasp debt in abstract terms what that means in real life. i think people say, i don't know, we've been going along this way for so long. what is one or two real life consequences of run away debt that you can tell people about this morning? >> when the mortgage payment gets so huge that it's devouring a big portion of your budget, you don't have enough to put people to work. we will lose permanently our standard of living. we will lose worse than that the american promise of upward mobility for all and a stable, hopeful middle class, we will lose our position of leadership in the world with all that means for peace everywhere. the stakes could not be higher, and the time could not be shorter. >> thank you very much. >> wouldn't he have been a great president? >> great candidate, great president. >> he says it's behind him, but

i don't know how that's possible. >> there's 2016. >> coming up -- >> thank you, governor. >> thanks a lot. the football frenzy with roger bennett. we'll be right back. ♪ there's a place i dream about ♪

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roger bennett, roger, we saw the result-riddled cadaver of gadhafi. what happened? >> what a weekend.

manchester united against manchester city. >> these guys have been winning for 25 years. >> believe it. they have been rubbish for a long, long time. they had the dollars put into it and winning on top of the league. this guy burns down his own house by letting off fireworks. he then pulled off the t-shirt and united had the player and the second half. mario with the second. this is for the millions watching. then united disappeared. city scored six goals. six. >> amazing. >> there is no parallel in american sports with how dominant manchester united has been. there is no parallel. not even the yankees. like if the yankees won straight

for 25 years. sir alex is the greatest coach ever. >> he absolutely thrashed. >> they didn't channel and it's nfl style. it's hard to read too much into it. definitely now that they are five points ahead and an amazing day to be a founder. when the final whistle went, fan his had the finest 90 minutes of their life. >> so let's talk about qpr versus chelsea. >> we were the west london darcy. chelsea is a power house and qpr was given the penalty early. side show bob here. they took a short lead and seven yellows and two reds.

they tried to give it. >> that wasn't a red card. >> you cannot give a wedgy in the english premier league. >> talking about a wedgy? >> they keep you interested. they gave the referee no chance. second half played with nine game and they were ferocious. they should start. >> chelsea played incredibly well. there was as big of a shock as roger clinton became. qpr won and that was a shock as was liverpool. >> horrible. what's happening on that field? >> they hit a speed bump and a tiny club from the east agriculture flat lands and the scoring and the evil smirk. he carried it and having kept it

clean and the barrel chested man looks less bloated. he manages to rise up and there was a crabbing game and takes it back to there. >> they pulled up from the second division and playing with the big boys and winning. problems? >> it's too early to question the great man with a team looking at it. >> he's an immensely large man. >> his legs look like they are 200 pounds each. they paid $50 million in off season to get him. >> he's very alone on the inside. >> battles the bottle, huh? >> the fas nt newcastle gentlem they kept him on the bench and he poured a beer down the front

of his pants. enough with this cheap import football. the players begin on the 26th. >> as they were saying, kansas city is a big win yesterday. roger, that's 9:00 aim o sirius radio. it will change your life and save your marriage. jill abram son is with us and will be sorry, i'm sure. more when we return. blam 4g-- the next evolution in wireless technology. with advanced power, the verizon 4g lte network makes your business run faster: smartphones, laptops, tablets, mobile hotspots. but not all 4g is created equal. among the major carriers, only verizon's 4g network is 100% lte,

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thank you for joining us. you are in becky becky becky stan? >> there is a 000 chance i will comment on the politics, but i am in uzbekistan. >> we take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." we have richard haas and mark hal person. >> i thought she was great on "meet the press." seems like she has a handle on the situation. >> there so many situations. >> so many.

all the situations of people like herman cain don't seem to have a grasp on. you look at all the things that have gone down. you realize now is not the time to send a man to the white house. whoever wins the nomination better have a firmer grasp on foreign affairs than the front-runner. what's that going to mean that the leader is saying a war between pakistan they are getting beaten up, hammered and slain. in front of 15,000 people and a stray dog at the stadium. >> i knew we were going somewhere. >> they showed army a thing or two. >> what are you doing beating up

the boys? >> we needed a win. >> they pulled the camera out and they are dealing with a lot of people. >> dudley field. >> holy cow. that's what we are fighting for? >> they bounce around like popcorn. >> the rangers won. >> richard, seriously. just like some recent elections, foreign policy could be the deal breaker for a certain party. president obama's announcement on friday that all u.s. forces will be with drawn is drawing intense criticism of particular concern. whether the move will help give iran added influence in the region. >> i think it's a serious mistake and there was never

really serious negotiations between the administration and the iraqis. they could have clearly made an arrangement for u.s. troops. yes, i'm here in the region and yes it is viewed as a victory for the iranians. i'm very, very concerned about increased iranian influence in iraq. >> i would argue that iraq and afghanistan is being run out of chicago and not washington. he is put in question our success in afghanistan and ended iraq poorly from inside the tent. i hope i'm wrong, but they are dancing in the streets in tehran. >> president obama said from the beginning that combat troops would leave by the end of this year. that should not surprise anyone. but it's equally important to remember that this deadline was set by the bush administration. it's been a bipartisan commitment, but it was on

president obama's watch to show the leadership to fulfill that commitment. >> iran should look at the region. we may not leave military bases in iraq, but we have support and training assets elsewhere and a nato ally in turkey. the united states is very present in the region. >> secretary clinton reiterated america's interest in making sure democracy in iraq continues to flourish. a small number of marines are in iraq and there will be bases throughout the country being developed in other parts of the country. >> you know, richard, you look at john mccain's response and he was thoughtful and critical of this administration. at least thoughtful. we have to be concerned about iranian influence in iran. you look at lindsay graham talking and he fumbled this. the president fumbled this and his decisions are being made out

of chicago. he could have been made out of austin, texas. this timeline is not barack obama's timeline. it's george w. bush's timeline. >> if you are worried about iranian influence in the region, that was one of the most historical consequences of the war itself. by removing saddam hussein and creating an iraq that was divided by sex. iran was going to be the dominant country. this potentially exacerbates it. you should have an american presence, but the answer is you probably couldn't. the iraqis resist the politics and the coalition. could the administration have gotten the deal? the jury is out on that certain people say yes and certain people say no. iran was likely to gain influence in part because iraq

itself has a plurality if not a majority of shia. that's the reality. >> you look at the leaders of iraq and the religious leaders of iraq from the very beginning. they have been skeptical of the iranian experiment from 1979 and from the beginning. the most powerful clerics, the shia said we are not going to go the way of iran. >> that's true. you won't have the fusion of political and religious power. that is an iranian experiment. iraqis have seen and the clerics have rejected. al-sadr is seen as a joke in his own country. >> there is also geography. the united states is several thousand miles away. whether we have 3,000 or 10,000 people there, we are in the most person era of iraq. through all sorts of mechanisms,

iran will have significant influence in iraq. >> i'm crazy enough to believe that the influence that we're going to see is the possibility of what's happened in iraq from 2003 and 2004 influencing iran. in 2003 he went to iran after the invasion of iraq and he was cornered by angry americans. we had not invaded iran. >> i think there two big political questions. could a better deal have been negotiated and we have high level negotiations. that is maybe the area, but the other is there imperfect forces elsewhere, but other arguments are remaining. the troops in iraq are on the ground symbolically that allows us to react better. if there is a problem in the

country, to react. lindsay graham's main criticism is that all americans should be concerned. all the sacrifice could be undone if the country comes apart. >> that's the same argument in afghanistan with all due respect. you for quoting lindsay. you can stay for another decade. it would come apart and the same for iraq. listen, after eight years, and over 4,000 lives and a trillion dollars in american cash, i think we have done our fair share. if the iraqis are ill-equipped to handle it eight years later, we will have to take it from there. we can't be an occupying power for another decade. we can't be an occupying power for another five years. >> this to you richard, the

3,000 to 5,000 troops will not be left. what difference would that make? was that a symbolic force? >> psychological to dampen down the tensions between the kurds and the sunnis. not so much a military difference, but a dampening down of the possibility that the ethnic and sectarian tensions will start off again. that's significant militarily. we made such an enormous investment. for a small investment, would it increase the odds if things did not come off the rails. i would have said yes, it was worth it. we didn't negotiate it. could we? the jury is out. iraq is largely going to be left to their own devices. we will see how it plays out. this increases the chances and not that it goes back to civil war and it gets rougher around

the edges. >> in 2008, everybody was talking about iraq. how many people a year are talking about foreign policy? >> very little. >> governor romney laid out a speech and they are talking about something republicans are using to criticize the president. a vision that is breaking through. jobs is going to be the dominant issue and the candidates are not that. >> if they criticize the president on this decision, the very, very reasonable response is this is bush's time table. at some point the republicans have to own up to the fact that they were a part of this. was it worth it? hillary clinton had the best answer to that. >> the legacy of iraq is going to be no more iraqs. this massive undertaking for very uncertain results. i think the era of this massive u.s. involvement is over.

>> i was going to say, we used to debate in the armed services committee whether we could fight two simultaneous wars in two theaters. would we be too stretched? this was the quaint debate that we would have. hearings back in the 1990s. of course you had the debate in a different field. >> we have been fighting two wars. two different theaters for a decade. it's just unsustainable. we have to turn the page. we can't be that power. >> when you were having those debates, no one presumed it was acceptable to have the stress on the military that we now have. it's not. that shows us how much they want to go well beyond. >> what we were doing for military families is horrific. >> some of the other places you

were critical. this is the future. much lighter footprint and a smaller involvement. special forces on the ground and drones and what have you offshore. for the foreseeable future, this is the way we pursue the enemies. we will not do it. remember bob gates said you need your head examined. this is the evidence. we are not going to repeat the afghan and iraqi experiments. >> hamid karzai responded to hypothetical conflict between pakistan and the united states. speaking with a private television station, karzai said this. if fighting starts between pakistan and the u.s., we are beside pakistan. >> wow. hold on a second. isn't this the guy that the leaders when they come on the show say we are fighting and dying and need to stay another decade for that guy? >> he said if pakistan is attacked --

>> this is not a misprint? >> no. afghanistan will be there with you. karzai went on to say he would not allow any nation to dictate his nation's policies. >> women are fighting and dying for a man who said he would be in the war against the united states. >> this is the piece of information that this war is ill-advise and unwarranted. we are involved in local, civil, and regional war where vital interests are not at stake. no matter how much we accomplish, six months or a year later, you will not see traces that they talked about. this is misguide and should be wound down. we should wind down involvement. >> i can make an argument that keeping troops in iraq would be far more.

>> this will bubble up. >> you don't have leaders of iraq saying the things that --iment glad we are getting out of iraq, but the president campaigned in 2008 that afghanistan was the good war. he tripled the number of troops and iraq was the bad war. he got out of there. i think the president needs to be withdrawing from afghanistan as quickly as iran. >> he is entertaining offers to join the taliban. this is the president's next great challenge. he got bin laden and pulling the troops out of iraq and afghanistan is the monster in the room. >> how does he do it when according to rick perry, he doesn't know where he was born. >> rick perry didn't go there, did he? >> yeah. he said he was not sure. >> come on, now. >> he is probably.

you sure he exists? >> so through rick perry fashion, i love this. if you are reading the transcript, we will ask you to reenact this if you would. there is one bizarre moment when the interviewer asked perry, how does he not know that he's from the u.s.? he has seen the birth certificate. he said he has never seen my birth certificate. what? let's go to tape. >> i ask we do it with finger puppets. okay, fine. we don't have a budget for that. great magazine. governor, do you believe that president barack obama was born in the united states. >> i have no reason to think otherwise. >> that's not a definitive yes.

>> he's never seen my birth certificate. >> what are does that even mean. >> i'm attempted to ad lib. >> but you've seen his. >> have i? >> you don't believe it? >> i had dinner with donald trump the other night. >> and? >> he doesn't think it's real. >> you said? >> i don't have any idea. it doesn't matter. he's elected. it's a distractive issue. >> it's distractive? it's a distractive issue. >> coal is a distractive industry. >> this is a disturbing set of candidates in your party. it's disturbing. they are either walking around with slogans or they are crazy. >> or in some cases -- >> those are not mutually

exclusive. >> seriously. pick your poison. >> i have no defense. >> i'm sorry. >> i played a column every week. >> so funny, you are not a real republican anymore. i am. this is lunacy. this is the sort of thing that not so many years from now, people will look back at the candidates and say what idiots. what total idiots. i suspect we will do what republicans do and there will be a shake down and thei itdiots wl be thrown overboard and we will elect a boring john mccain type and get mitt romney and maybe lose. >> the editor of "new york times," jill abramson will be on

set. the battle of the borders. the consequences of the drug wars. marijuana production there is now booming. first speaking of pot, here's the forecast. >> a plus for creativity for finding ways to toss to me in weather hits. good, guys. i hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. a plus for everyone out there. the one thing we have to watch. cancun and south florida is the tropical storm. this will intensify and should be a hurricane this week and even though it's the end of october we can get the storms in this area. wilma hits florida hard in october. that's what we have to watch. a chance of showers and maybe a thunderstorm. it's quick lib. maybe just a half hour or so. we are beautiful in the southeast and watch what happens in denver. 79 and sunny today.

tomorrow the temperatures plummet. the rain changes to snow tuesday night and you should be shoveling snow by wednesday. it's not that uncommon for october in denver.

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the time we grew up in was a magical time.

it was a spiritual time in my life. it was one of the most important things in my life. not the most important, but right up there. >> he eventually drifted back to his parents's house and became one of the first 50 employees to work for the video game maker, atari. he was not a big hit. >> never wore shoes and had very long hair. never bathed. when he went to work for atari, they put him on the night shifts because people said he smelled so bad, they didn't want to work with him. >> they're believed his vegan diet and the way he lived made it so he didn't have to use deodorant and shower. it was incorrect as people pointed out. he was a pretty abrasive character. these people at atari kind of get him. we don't want to you leave, but how about working the night

shift? >> with us is the executive editor of the "new york times." jill is out with a new book, the puppy diaries, raising a dog named scout. >> who is scout? >> she is my golden retriever puppy. >> aren't you a little busy? >> i did it first on ny times.com as a column and i chronicled her first year and i turned it into a very interesting and gratifying book. i worked on it on the welcomes and i'm a hard invest gavive type. this was my first time writing in first person voice. it's a combination memoire and manual.

>> as you take over the executive editor of the "new york times" and there these stories circulating about your hard nose style. look at that puppy! this is brilliant. >> how could anybody be tough with this cute little puppy like this? >> in part the book is about how difficult it is to be tough with an adorable puppy. >> that's true. >> no matter what your job is. >> let's talk about management styles. we had ken on last week talking about his piece and taking over. he said that you had the reputation of having a very tough management style. he said you were grappling with it and trying to be self-aware. it is not a kinder and gentler jill moving forward. >> i think i have always been plenty kind and maybe not so gentle. i'm working on the gentle. what you may find is jill

abramson who listens more and dominates the conversation a little less. >> how did do you that? >> at the same time why more gentle if it's working to you? >> i'm not making major adjustments. the piece i quoted one of our reporters and saying i stuck up for reporters. >> there has to be tough leadership. >> how does it change to go from being a peer in many cases to a boss. do you have to treat your friends differently? >> you find as you climb up the editing ranks you have fewer friends who you can talk about everything in the newsroom with

and gossip with. my friends are still my friends. i don't think i have undertaken a profound shift in attitude or the way people deal with me. >> the paper is one of the great institutions in the world and you had hard financial times and of late you are finding profitability which anybody cares about. what do you think the outlook is for selling content to consumers? >> the future is totally bright as long as we keep the news report at the high quality it is. i'm certain we will do. we have no problem asking our heaviest readers to pay for what they are reading. that makes it possible for us to keep as many reporting boots on the ground and to be a global news organization and have domestic bureaus during this presidential year.

it looks good so far. our digital subscription model. that's what you are referring to. >> yep. do you care to talk about -- you are taking a step and you are going to be the first woman running the "new york times." >> i am the first one. >> you are the first one. the media, especially newspapers, it has been an old boy's club for a long time. how difficult was it for you on the way up to where you are right now and more to the point, do you think there will be obstacles you will face because you are a woman? >> there always obstacles to face and i can't possibly anticipate what they will be, but i don't think it's because of my gender. something i keep in my office is an oversized photograph of the "new york times" newsroom in

1905. it's a bunch of men in suits with many of them with beards. one lone woman sitting down. >> it is tough. we have talked about this. it is just tougher for women. i will be honest with you. i worked in law firms and i worked in congress obviously. in a sense it seems even the media world women face more obstacles. >> it's possible that they do, but we have almost a third of our management ranks are female right now. it's a great newsroom for women. >> the reason i asked about the gentle touch and exactly what you were tweaking is because i'm speaking about my book and they are also worried about looking like the bieber. let it go. the only one worried about that

is you. let it go. is she adjusting so she is more likeable? you shouldn't. clearly you got to where you are by who you are. >> i have been in the business for decades and everyone will tell you i'm the same person i have always been. >> what do you think of the online aggregators of news that were so prominent now who take your content and content of other newspapers and put them together and make gobs of money? >> they're take a limited number of words and we watch like hawks how much our content is being used on them. they also give a wider distribution to our stories. ny times.com is still part of the free web. we want a big audience. it does help in certain ways too. >> speaking of aggregators, what

do you think about the fact that we have the front page at the top of the news hour? >> that obviously is good distribution. i am not going to discourage you from that. >> your ipad ap too, there have been updates on it. oh, my gosh. it's great. you have been on it last week? >> i use it every day. >> it's easy to move section to section, story to story. >> for has the logic of reading the paper now. it's gorgeous. >> it is. we are still going to have this. willie and i when we go to 57th street and smoke cigarettes and read this, we want this in our hands. you are not going to ever take this away from us. >> it's in a ride with what you

were told. >> how much of the book did the puppy write? >> she lived it and i wrote it. >> as told by. >> thank you so much. the book is the puppy diaries and you can get an excerpt at mojo.msnbc.com. thank you so much. great to see you. >> been on a 2,000 mile road trip along the u.s. and mexico border. next on "morning joe." we're america's natural gas

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>> let me first say it was a joke and some people don't say it wasn't a good joke. it's probably not a joke i should make as a presidential candidate. i apologize if i offended anyone. >> it didn't sound like a joke. >> i think we are splitting hairs here. i don't apologize for using a combination of offense and it might be electrified. it might be. >> joining us now, ed, ed has

written about the u.s. and mexican border. it's out in paper back and very good to have you on the show. >> this is a story that it seems like america and the world is ignoring. the numbers. what you report on. absolutely frightening what's happening. >> where is everybody. it's 20 minutes walk over the bridge from el paso from san diego and texas. it's going down. i fear to say and no end in sight yet. they have a solution that seems to be working. >> eight presidents have had policies going into this are is this a supply or a demand

issue? what's going on that we haven't been able to adjust this? >> it's multilayer and economic back grop adrop and a complicaty about those from new york going off to asia. it's demand of course in the united states. it's also supply. i think in a way what it has become is an implosion. we have seen the pyramids, if you like and those who give flowers to the ladies on mother's day. the pyramids that we associate with the godfather and they collapse and fragment and you smash up the mercury and it's all over so that you have a plethora. the patent is different along the border. it's the most dangerous and has

the highest homicide rate in the world. it's different than the military cocktail. the monopolies, it's not as simple as a problem across the border in mexico. >> an excerpt in the book, you write that a police officer is offered simple career choice. many can get it opt for the former. in tijuana, the police can be working for one cartel and the state police with another and the federal es with another. how much has this spilled across the boarder and how concerned do you find the united states to be? >> knock on wood, that could change of course. law enforcement has done a good

job and whatever people may say about the problems, also the cartel s don't want to draw too much heat on the border itself. it is the second safest city in the size of america. they seem to be manifesting in phoenix and atlanta where the cartel s are establishing the distribution. networks with games and prison and people coming out and getting deported. they got the tattoos and they speak english and know the ground. the spill over has not work on the border itself. it's safer than it should be. that sounds wrong, but safer than you might expect. >> you are working in a war zone and witness massacres and go to the clinic and 75 people killed in one week in juarez. what is that sight like when you go through the city? >> it's charismatic in its way

and it's tragic. these are good people. mexico is a wonderful country. that's the tragedy of the place. i stepped in the rehab clinics and they go in at night and massacre the people. there is another complication. what on earth is that about? it's sad. you have to keep your eye on the ball. you can't make a mistake. journalistically speaking. you have to look people in the eye. you don't get to meet the bad guys. it's difficult for us to understand this sometimes. people lie to them and they have a point of view they want to get across. they don't want you to talk about it. they will control the newspapers in many towns and so it's all happening and they are all out there looking at you.

>> the mayors and anyone you could including truck drivers and prostitutes. you have a wide array of points of view. tell us about that. >> i got my boots dirty for sure. you have to do this from street level. we need the people to formulate policy and you need the buffs and the academics. we have to sleep in the rehab centers and talk to the truck drivers who make no bones about the fact that the door is open and the machine gun and the ski masks take the stuff through. you have to talk to those people. i did get to talk to a street gang opposite laredo, texas. that's the main corridor. 40% of all the trade between the u.s. and mexico comes through there. i talked to guys who were look outs and watching the border. when the conversation got tricky, i was asked to stop now.

>> thank you so much. the book amexica is out now. tyler mathson takes us through the earnings reports and the latest out of the euro zone. we will be back with more "morning joe." do you have an irregular heartbeat called atrial fibrillation, or afib,

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but i'll be there, every step of the way. call or come in for a free portfolio review today. time to get a check on business with cnbc's tyler mathisson. >> great to be back with you all. >> are we starting with obama's new finance plan. >> the president is out in california in the west and today in nevada as part of a three-day

swing. he will announce a program that will make refinancing available to potentially hundreds of thousands of more people around the country. it stream lines appraisal and extends the ability to refinance loans by freddie orpha fanny. people who are is you veerly under water. all decisions in the political year are political and this no less so. especially because an awful lot of borrowers happen to be in the western states i mentioned. nevada, california, colorado where he will be doing some fund-raising as well. this certainly could help and reduce the monthly payments by several hundred for those people who heretofore have not been able to refinance. >> we have france and belgium

bailing out a big bank and dealing with the same problems we had to deal with in 2008. what is going on? >> it is a euro t.a.r.p. that is being tossed over to the banks. they are asking to recapitalize to the tune of $150 billion. 100 billion euros. take steps for the 30 time to bail out greece in return for a haircut or reduction of greek bonds of up to 50% apparently. we will get details on this on wednesday. wake me when it's over. it has been going on, dragging on for months. you are forgiven if you are fatigued. the final details should come out on wednesday. some of the nations met on sunday in europe. the final report will come out on wednesday. the market will be watching this of course very, very closely. >> thanks.

it's good to see you. looking ahead to tomorrow with john grisham on the show. ♪ [ dr. ling ] i need to get the results from the m.r.i. see if the blood work is ready. review ms. cooper's history. and i want to see katie before she goes home. [ male announcer ] with integrated healthcare solutions from dell, every patient file is where dr. ling needs it. now she can spend more time with patients and less time on paperwork. ♪ dell. the power to do more. ♪ ♪

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. we have clips of the 60 minute interview with steve jobs that is out today. we have bytes that we show you earlier. steve jobs's management style. >> when he was creating the original intosh, he would say we need to have this done by next month. people would say no, you can't write this much code by next month. he would say yes, you could do it. he would not take no for an answer and he would make the depth in the universe he wanted to. he would bend reality and they would accomplish it. >> i feel totally comfortable in front of everybody else. we really [ bleep ] up the nrnlinrnl i engineering on this. we are honest with each other. they think i'm full of [ bleep ] and i can tell anyone they are full of [ bleep ]. we had arguments where we are

yelling at each other. >> jobs loved the arguments and isaacson said top people were defecting. >> steve was not the world's greatest managers employee could have been one of the worst. he was always up ending things and throwing things into turmoil. this made great products, but not for a great management style. >> walter isaacson will be with us on thursday. what if anything did we learn today? hey, did you ever finish last month's invoices?

sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you because i'm also making you a smoothie. [ male announcer ] marriott hotels & resorts knows it's better for xerox to automate their global invoice process so they can focus on serving their customers. with xerox, you're ready for real business. since ameriprise financial was founded back in 1894, they've been committed to putting clients first. helping generations through tough times. good times. never taking a bailout. there when you need them. helping millions of americans over the centuries. the strength of a global financial leader. the heart of a one-to-one relationship. together for your future.

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>> welcome back to "morning joe." time to talk about what we learned. what did you learn? >> mark hal person and i should have rehearsed before the show. >> i liked it. >> it moved me to tears where you said he hasn't seen my birth certificate. >> i don't know what that means. >> i don't know what seeing donald trump means either. >> legitimacy. >> the answers are just confusing. what did you learn? >> the finger puppets. rick