they poke holes in long standing beliefs in the fact that men just want sex while women want only commitment. i don't know anything about that story. read up on it on msnbc.com. john tower has a couple e-mails. what are they saying? >> a wild turkey is being eaten i turned on the tv to drown out the noise. >> oh, my gosh, that's a horrible story written in this morning. i hope you can get back to bed and the night terrors don't keep you up for the rest of the week. i got a tweet from blunt chick. i'm up looking for herman cain campaign ad song which is called "i am america" to set as my ring tone and might smoke for the first time in three years inspired by mr. cain, because i am america. let's see the smile one more time as we go out. wait until you see his poll numbers. you'll see them on "morning joe" right now.

this afternoon in the same line as the herman cain, the guy, the guy looks like he's from the elk's club. why don't you vote for our guy? you can park across the street. another one of these. take a look at this one. >> rich lowry here, chief economic adviser for herman cain. government must get off our backs, out of our pockets, and out of our way. ♪ i am america >> i was so impressed by these ads, folks, that i have made some ads of my own. >> hi, mike kilpatrick here, and it is my privilege to be chief strategist for the cain campaign. i believe herman cain is the man to restore america's greatness.

won't you join me? ♪ i am america okay. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, october 26th. with us onset, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle, and msnbc and "time" magazine political analyst mark haleprin. >> and that tune? come on, where were you in 1972? three dog night, my man. three dog night. >> "one is the loneliest number." >> whatever. okay. you are a three dog night rookie. what about -- this herman cain ad, if the idea's to be talked about, you know, that was the cigarette drag heard around the world. >> okay. >> and the guy -- do you see the polls that came out?

>> we're going to get there. >> we can't start the newscast with him leading in the polls. >> yes, we can. it's exciting. >> i won't do it. >> face reality, mika. >> come on. i want to stay in my bubble. i'm good. >> this is the dawning of the age of herman cain. >> no. >> no -- >> what is wrong with your party? >> smoke em if you got em. >> the texas governor at a number -- here's the hit -- >> oh, that at least -- >> the new congressional appr e approval rating is 9%, rick perry is below 9%. >> who are the 9%? that's what i want to know. i don't want to live anywhere near them. >> his extended family are the natural prey of the coyote. but holy cow, let's be positive. herman cain. cain mania. this guy arrived at jfk, there'd be screaming girls -- i can't believe.

you remember murray the k -- >> if you want to borrow my iphone, you can ask suri -- >> no, i don't want to ask suri. >> herman cain is in first place. >> stop. stop. >> there's some serious news. >> we're going to talk about the 99%. >> we're going to circle back to these cbs poll numbers. >> we are. >> also, the president's poll number. this president, quietly doing blocking and tackling, his approval rating is creeping back up, doing the small things, mika. >> interesting. >> doing the small things. >> thank you. that's nice. >> let's talk about the 99% instead of the 9%. >> a dramatic%

>> look at that number on the far right. the income in equity. is a real challenge. i remember talking to frank rich a year ago. and frank saying this is -- this is the issue.

this is a big threat to america's economic well being in the future. and boy, mike, a year later, a lot of people are talking about what frank was talking about last year. >> yeah, and still as was a year ago, two years ago, the most important word in the english language is spelled j-o-b. that's the way to address income inequality. jobs and education. we spent too little on education in terms of spending it the proper way, training, and everything like that. jobs and education. that's how you handle that. it is the rich getting richer because of exotic financial instruments on wall street. tax breaks, 25 years of certain changes in our tax code, but there's a second contributing factor, and that is the

hollowing out of the middle class. and they're not just hollowing out because china and india's taking all of our jobs, hollowing out for historic reasons. and that makes this battle just a heck of a lot harder for a politician to get a grasp on. >> what makes it a challenge now are there are long-term trends you've alluded to that created this. but we've got a lot of short-term economics making things difficult. neither party is well-equipped to talk about it. the president doesn't want to engage in class warfare, and a lot of this has happened on his watch. it's hard for republicans to give a grand overarching explanation of why this has happened and what they'd do about it. >> what the prescription is. >> it runs up things they care about. >> the president did address this. i just want to add one thing before we get to the next story, and that is the report also goes on to cite the rapid growth of celebrity salaries. and the increasing size of the financial services industry and changes in executive compensation as major

contributing factors to the disparity. >> because of the political situation that we live in, you won't find many people talking about it. you won't find anybody in the hold up wall street movement or the tea party movement agreeing that this anger has the same source. >> right. >> and they may not want to hear it, but it's the truth. it is a vanishing middle class, it's the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, economic malaise that is going to stretch possibly into the next decade. and, you know, the answers -- with all due respect to paul krugman, if you hear paul krugman and read, his suggestion is another $1 trillion or $2 trillion in stimulus spending. but as jeffrey sachs says, that

would create an artificial bubble, it wouldn't rebuild the working class, we'd collapse again, $2 trillion deeper in debt. and then you listen to the republicans who are talking about tax cuts. they're taking it from the other side. and guess what? we could reduce the taxes down to 20%, 15%. maybe we get an artificial bump for a year or two, and then we collapse again. both sides, both ideological camps are ill equipped to handle the problem that we're facing now. and again, this is a 25-year, 30-year structural challenge to this country. and ideology is not sufficient to the task we face today. >> and i think most americans recognize that right now. they don't have a government in washington that's up to the task that's in front of us right now. that's why i think the mockery and dismissal of the people in the press of what's happening with this movement are so

shortsighted. sure, there are some people out there not there for the right reasons, but they're not out there because they think it's cool to be out there. they're out there because they can't find jobs. they're out there because the country is going this way for 1% of the country and the other way for 99% of the country. and they don't believe they have a government even though some of them may like president obama who can tackle this problem. >> and that's -- that's -- i mean -- for progressives. that's the depressing part. they've got their guy in the white house. but again, this is not going to be solved. i've said it before, i'll say it again, we've been talking about this nonstop for months now. this isn't going to be solved by a republican or a democrat in the white house. this isn't barack obama's fault. it's not george w. bush's fault. it is a collection of presidents who presided over the collapse of america's middle class over the collapse of our industrial base, over the collapse of

working class, middle class, households going down to 7%, the private sector now. this is a long-term trend. does any politician have the guts to stand up and say i can't fix this in a day? i can't fix this in a week. i can't fix this in a quarter, we're going to have to work on this possibly for the next decade. >> identify got to say with all due respect to the last two presidents, bill clinton did see this as the animating reason for his presidency. he's having a big economic conference on friday in washington where he's going to talk about and his former advisers will talk about their vision. >> can i stop you there, though? so much of what happened in 2008 goes back to what he and larry summers and bob ruban were pushing in the '90s. >> i said vision, not execution. >> well, their vision was a wall

street centric vision. >> they overcompensated a little bit. willie said that the press has been somewhat dismissive of occupy wall street, i agree with that. this is the crisis of our time. republicans would be politically smart to embrace the elements of occupy wall street that have to do with a critique of what's gone on in our society. they've not done it. the republican nominee can gain political advantage and do the right thing if they take the ideas of that and develop a long-term solution. >> let's talk about republicans -- >> if i were a republican candidate running, i would be all over it. i would be all over it because this president, let's talk pure politics, this president is wed to wall street. he's got more money from wall street than any candidate in u.s. history. even this election cycle, more money from wall street than all of the republican candidates combined. republicans should embrace this because this income disparity --

let's face it, most of the people sitting at the top, they didn't give money to john mccain and sarahç palin. >> they want the money from wall street, and this president has been harder on wall street than any other president -- >> no, no, you're being so ideologically blind here. the president has gotten more money -- why? >> he has! i'm not -- >> why would you say that? republicans want money from wall street? the president wants money from wall street. >> and apparently he's getting it, but it doesn't change the fact that he's been harder on wall street than any other president. >> he hasn't been harder on wall street -- >> yes, he has. and republicans have gotten in the way. >> we're having an unideological conversation and of you decided to wave the flag for barack obama. >> i'm not waving the flag. >> you are. the president is owned by wall street. look at his campaign -- if we started running the contributions this president has received from the richest people on wall street, it would take an

hour just to run that list on this tv show. >> it would take an hour to talk about all the things he has done to take on wall street. >> it would take about two minutes. >> that's not true. >> mike, how many of these fundraisers -- you started this. let the record reflect you started this. it's just not true. i can't let you say things that are just not true. mike, how much are these -- how much are these fundraisers? he goes down to wall street -- >> 38 -- >> do you think i'm -- >> he goes to the back rooms with the richest people on the planet and he sits there and eats whatever with them, lobster, whatever. and -- and gets $38,000 per head. >> you know, one of our -- one of the problems here in this discussion about this issue is that we tend to focus on things like wall street. a year from now we'll be focusing on something else. history moves so quickly.

and the issue of income redistribution, income inequality in this country, a lot of it has to do, i think, looking back 20 years. 20 years ago, if you're 18 years of age and you graduated from high school in massachusetts or california, your competition was out there graduating from high school in florida or michigan, some other 18-year-old kid. and now it's someone in india or someone in thailand or someone elsewhere around the world because it's now a global economy. and we're not prepared to sit down and figure out what is it that we do best? >> mike, this is what's so irritating, though, and again, you will remember this. we have been complaining as a country now for 35, 40 years about other people taking control. and we have -- remember 1974? remember opec? remember the energy crisis in

'74? oh, we don't control oil anymore, it's those arabs, blah -- you heard that in the 1970s, and then in the late 1970s, we started beating up japanese immigrants in detroit. stories of people getting beaten up in michigan because they were selling hondas and nissans. this didn't just start. this has been going on since the '70s. and we always seem shocked every three or four years that we're in a global economy. we've had no energy policy, jimmy carter, i tip my hat to jimmy carter. >> he had one. >> and if we had pursued it aggressively like jimmy carter wanted, we would be in a lot better place right now. and you can go down the list. detroit shocked every four or five years. this is a long-term trend. >> but what mika wants to blame on the republican party and tom delay or newt gingrich or whomever. >> at some point, our politics became such that everyone running for office lived only in the moment.

never took the long view. never articulated a longer view, lived only for the moment to get reelected. >> all i can say is, mika, thank god we elected barack obama. >> alex, elizabeth warren running for senate -- wait, why is she running for senate? oh, right, the republicans drove her out of the consumer protection -- that she built, that the president was behind, and they will not allow -- >> elizabeth warren will tell people off camera that the president didn't have the courage to nominate her to that position because, oh, wait, what would happen? she would upset his friends on wall street. so barack obama's friends on wall street told him not to pick elizabeth warren to run the agency she set up. and the president said, okay. >> no, i think -- >> that's exactly what happened. i can't even believe you would bring up elizabeth warren. >> i'll bring up elizabeth warren. >> a lot of democrats on capitol

hill didn't want her in the job either. >> wall street money's powerful, isn't it? >> it sure is. you ought to think about it. >> boy, that was some comeback. all right. let's talk about -- >> you really are going to look at me in the face and say this president has not tried -- >> he's owned by wall street. >> gentleman from goldman sachs. >> he's owned by wall street, making more money than anybody else in u.s. political history. even this cycle. he talked really tough about wall street in '07, then took all their money in '08. and again, you bring up elizabeth warren, that's so insightful, she wanted that job. she didn't get it because barack obama's powerful friends on wall street told her not to. >> actually because the republicans drove her out. but you can have your own narrative. let me ask you something. why aren't the republicans taking on this president about being owned by wall street? >> because they're owned by wall street too. i've said that all along. i don't know where you've been for the past several years.

but republicans are owned by wall street, democrats are owned by wall street, the president's owned by wall street. the only difference is, there's only one of those three that's pretending they're not owned by wall street, and that's the president. it's called hypocrisy. >> you don't deny mika's point? >> any other president in history. >> well, tougher than anybody else. that's like one of those mtv's sweet sixteen parties and trying to figure out which rich hollywood producer was tougher on his 16-year-old daughter. they all spoil and pamper the same. >> perfect metaphor. >> it is a perfect metaphor. have you seen those things before? they were repulsive. >> i couldn't tell you. >> oh, come on. somebody here has seen mtv's sweet sixteen. >> he doesn't know who murray the k was. >> murray the k. everybody's looking at flushing. the whole world's eyes are on

flushing because the fab four are coming to town. that's fine. so, listen, by the way, can we get -- sort of a truth in advertising thing. because i trash republicans and democrats alike. but if we can get a billboard. valerie, if you could get a sign obama/biden 2012, we'll put it right here. i think it'll make everything much better. >> let me just look here. oh, the other headline we're getting to. >> yeah. >> herman cain is at the top of the pack. >> so you're -- coming up -- we'll bring in senator pat toomey, howard dean, arnie duncan. but first, let's go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> good morning, mika. busy weather day around the country. let's start in colorado. it is snowing. the first snowstorm of the season has arrived. interstate 80 is shut down across areas of wyoming. and we're expecting up to a foot

of snow by the end of today in denver. incredible stuff. you can see the snow on the map here, the white. colorado's going to be the travel trouble spot, and the front range is where the heavy snow will be. we also have our hurricane down there in the caribbean. this is going to hit cancun as we go into thursday. some time around 2:00 p.m., it'll be right over the top of cancun. looks like some destruction down there. and then florida, we're going to watch it, but the storm will weaken significantly. you should be okay. finally, we have rain showers and cool weather heading for new england today. a lot of light rain over western new york and pennsylvania. that'll move into the big cities later today. and tomorrow, more rain in the forecast. and guess what? it's going to be cold enough for some snow thursday night for areas of the poconos, catskills, and higher elevations of central new england. so fall quickly turning into winter. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.

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time now to take a look at the morning papers at 25 past the hour.

we'll begin in the business section. "financial times" reports amazon shares plunge 5% in the after hours trading. reporting a drop in third quarter profit after spending heavily on a new tablet to compete with the ipad. in a single day, amazon's market cap lost about $16 billion. >> amazon, though, that's a company that is so well positioned for the future. it's amazing what they've done over the past decade. you know, had a lot of these online retailers come and go, but boy, amazon is positioned to explode over the next decade. those tablets, though, they won't compete. >> what about our parade of papers. >> let's go to our parade of papers right now. it was a bomb that could have been used at the end of dr. strange love, the "oklahoman" says the last of the most powerful bombs ever made the b-53 has been dismantled. i love the b-53. one of athens best, the cold war

relic weighs 10,000 pounds and was the size -- well, of a minivan. >> speaking of minivans, let's go to politico. >> he doesn't drive around in a minivan. >> he seems like he does. >> mike allen, do you drive a mini van? yes or no? >> i feel a feeling i have a minivan in my future. >> don't do it. >> we've got to talk about herman cain and these poll numbers. cain leading the presidential field outright. that's according to a new cbs poll, cain at 25% among republican primary voters up 20% from mid-september. mitt romney steady at 21%. newt gingrich at 10%, ron paul at 8%, fifth place, rick perry at 6%. down 17 points from just over a month ago. >> dumb doesn't sell, does it? >> within the tea party. rick perry only at 7% among tea

partiers. >> wow. >> herman cain also leads that group by a wide margin, he's got 32% of tea party support, romney has 18% support. >> look at these two really quickly. herman cain's up top. >> yeah. >> and there's rick perry who had a lot of tea party support before. remember this summer, the queen of the tea party? >> michele bauchmann. >> michele bauchmann. not even in the top five. which tells you what about these tea party voters? volatile. and they're looking for a home. >> and rick perry in theory, his message is supposed to be appealing to the tea party, and apparently it's not. what do you think of the polls? >> rick perry's falling off a cliff. 6% is so amazing. statistically, cain and romney are tied, it's a four-point difference. what's fascinating about this poll is even as the other candidates move around, even as perry loses all the support, ro romney is right where he is. he stays steady. i feel these polls are voters

acting out a little bit. not ready to marry romney, still lookinat other candidates, still moving around. but herman cain is not going to have any traction in the long run. hep hasn't built the infrastructure you need. his iowa campaign office, virtually empty. >> say that one more time about iowa. as we look at this number, mike allen, which is stunning, here we are late in the fall, it's almost october. i mean, it's almost halloween when people start in regular election years figuring out who they're going to support. here, 80% of the voters tell cbs news and the "new york times" they haven't made up their mind about what republican candidate they're going to support. >> yeah, and that's why today you have rick perry going up in iowa the first paid advertisement with a positive message talking about jobs. he realizes he needs to introduce himself to voters. and this volatility you're pointing to gives him a real

opportunity. but he lost that big advantage. there was so much excitement, fascination with him, something you can't buy in politics. and we see from those numbers, that's gone. >> mike, when does the herman cain bubble burst, if it does? the numbers keep going up. his problems have been well-documented. he's called for the electrified fence, his position on abortion has been unclear over the last week, and yet, he still leads the polls and among tea party supporters by a great margin. if this bubble is going to burst, what bursts it? >> well, i think there could be more negative stories about cain, more information about cain. remember the people like the idea of rick perry and as they got to know rick perry, watching him more closely, not so much. could well have the same thing with cain. but mitt romney needs to find a way to get some more people, bring some more people in. he's a solid member of his pack, but that number right around 23% hasn't budged, even as everyone

else waxes and wanes. >> and this poll was taken before the smoking ad. so those numbers will jack up even higher as we know. what about rick perry? 6% is an astonishing number. >> he's going to have to drive a message of paid advertisement in iowa, and stake his claim in south carolina and iowa. >> he can't do it. think about it four years ago at this time, john mccain was in trouble. why was john mccain in trouble? same issue. illegal immigration. he teamed up with kennedy on a legal immigration bill. a lot of people in the party thought he was for amnesty. they're now thinking about the same thing about rick perry. >> and yet john mccain won the nomination. >> because john mccain backed down and did a turn around. and remember that border ad. let's get 'em or whatever mccain said. >> that was in the senate race. >> was the a complete flip-flop, though. any flip-flop. >> he started emphasizing border

security and perry's been talking about his immigration record on areas besides the tuition issue. >> look, 80% having decided romney's a weak front-runner. someone's going to give him a scare. and right now rick perry still has the best chance to do that. >> boy. those numbers have just collapsed. >> 7% among tea party too. >> that's seven points behind the front-runner, with 80% up for grabs. that gives him an opportunity. >> boy. he just collapsed. the trend lines are bad as my collar here. >> they'll be showing this video at his inauguration. they'll be showing this as the gag video. >> let me just say, let me just say, hello from new zealand and congratulations, president perry. >> president-elect -- >> mike allen, avoid the

minivan, my man. see you, mike. coming up, officially introduced at wrigley field. explains why he decided to leave boston. and later, president obama warns the white house might get egged this halloween. keep it on "morning joe." we'll be right back. when is this stud muffin of yours coming over?

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delivering mail, medicine and packages. yet they're closing thousands of offices, slashing service, and want to lay off over 100,000 workers. the postal service is recording financial losses, but not for reasons you might think. the problem ? a burden no other agency or company bears. a 2006 law that drains 5 billion a year from post-office revenue while the postal service is forced to overpay billions more into federal accounts. congress created this problem, and congress can fix it.

let's do some sports. >> why did you do that? >> we're going to do an online show where we play the breaks. it'll be the highest-rated thing on television. the breaks are amazing. come on back. game six of the world series is tonight. pivotal -- hold it together -- perhaps decisive. the rangers can close it out against the cardinals. colby lewis going for texas. for st. louis fans, they're still wondering, about what happened in the bullpen in game

five in texas could possibly have cost the cardinals the game. tony la russa the manager complained after the game his bullpen couldn't hear over the noise. big mix-up. yesterday, la russa tried his best to explain what happened. >> well, what happened was, twice, the bullpen didn't hear mott's name. you know, they heard -- mott wasn't going. i called again for mott. no, they didn't hear mott, and then called back, said mott, they heard -- i thought it was mott, and they were yelling at me as i went out, i didn't hear them. well, it wasn't mott. so i saw him and said, what are you doing here? >> if they thought mott sounded like rapcinsky. >> where were they in texas? they using at&t phone technology?

>> come on, now, i'm sorry, if you're la russa and see the wrong guy coming out of the bullpen. >> time to correct it. >> hold on a second. >> go out and delay. go out, start warming up and just talk and yell at the umpire, even get kicked out. do anything but bring in the wrong guy at the pivotal time of the world series. >> he should've gone out to the mound, put his hand on whoever was pitching and said, fake your own death right now. >> exactly. >> it's a little extreme. >> no, seriously, what would you do? you'd walk out there and whisper and walk out to the pitcher and say -- how's your wing, you know, is it doing this, and walk off and then call me back out. you do anything. it's a world series! >> that's a bad news bears -- go out there, fake your own death. >> the thing is, it's the world series. are you going to allow the wrong pitcher to pitch at the most

critical time in the series? >> what about having a guy running on first base with pujols? >> what are you doing? >> that's a great idea. >> let willie finish, please. >> take the bat out of the greatest hitter's hand in baseball. i mean, that's -- that is as unimaginable as having like a $200 million payroll and limping into september and bringing up pitchers from catholic high school. >> the memories, he won you two world series -- >> come on. hey, i'm theo, i'm smarter than everybody in baseball. come on! bill simmons wrote it, how can you watch nesn every night of the year, which mike knows, watching nesn, watching these games night in and night out and come september, the pennant run -- >> ask somebody who knows. do you think theo epstein sucks? >> no! >> how was he in september?

>> was he already thinking about chicago? >> anyway, theo's the new head of baseball operations. president of baseball operations. the chicago cubs -- >> he'll keep you in first place until the middle of august. >> here's theo yesterday in chicago. >> i do think it was time to move on. they're in great hands and have a terrific future laid out in front of them. and i was ready for the next big challenge. and this is certainly the ultimate challenge. the last couple of weeks have been interesting. i was telling -- we had a front office meeting yesterday. i got to meet the whole front office and i was telling them that i felt like the guy in the movie "office space" with the stapler who just keeps -- when i was at fenway park, you keep showing up to work and it was as if someone forgot to tell me i didn't work there anymore. i knew it was time to go to chicago. >> milton from office space

reference. nice play. nice play. >> the only thing is what theo didn't explain is that he actually had stopped working there in the middle of august. no, seriously, he was already picking out his house in chicago, i guess. >> two world series for a historically pathetic franchise. [ male announcer ] what if we told you that cadillac borrowed technology from ferrari to develop its suspension system? or what if we told you that ferrari borrowed technology from cadillac to develop its suspension system?

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what's it going to do to the planet? natural gas is the cleanest conventional fuel there is. we've got to be smart about this. it's a smart way to go. ♪ i'm not a line item on a budget. and i'm definitely not a pushover. but i am a voter. so washington... before you even think about cutting my medicare and social security benefits... here's a number you should remember. 50 million. we are 50 million seniors who earned our benefits... and you will be hearing from us... today and on election day. ♪ [ gnome ] awwwwwwww. i just feel bloody awful. she told tiffany, stephanie, jenny and becky that she was coming to a place like this! but somebody didn't book with travelocity, with 24/7 customer support to help move them

to the pool daddy promised! look at me, i'm swimming! ♪ [ gnome ] somebody, get her a pony! [ female announcer ] the travelocity guarantee. if your booking's not right, we'll help make it right, right away. from the price to the room to the trip you'll never roam alone. welcome back to "morning joe." a cool shot of the white house this morning. >> wow! >> that is, of course, mika's home away from home. >> all right. you know what? >> and -- >> just because i got in the way of your narrative that you were building and actually got a word in edgewise to counter it, you don't have to call the white house my home away from home. >> oh, i feel bad now. i'm sorry. i take that back. >> your apology is accepted. >> thank you. all right. consumer spending, it's consumer spending from the "new york times." >> who is this?

>> this is james livingston. >> he's great. >> a big part of our problem is we doubt the moral worth of our consumer culture like the abstemious ant. we think that saving is the right thing to do. even as we shop with abandon, we feel that if only we could contain our unruly desires, we'd be committing ourselves to a better future. but we're wrong. we don't need the traders and the ceos and the analysts and the 1% to collect and manage our savings. instead, we consumers need to save less and spend more in the name of a better future. we don't need to silence the ant, but we'd better start listening to the grasshopper. >> that's absolutely ridiculous and stupid. >> what does that mean? >> he wants us to go shopping. >> yeah. >> wrong. >> does he mean that literally? >> no. but -- >> let's move on. >> well, okay. >> seriously, what do you think about that? do you think we need to spend more and save less?

>> no, i mean, i think spending is what got -- and i talk about now consumer spending with wild abandon is part of what got us to where we got where we are today. greed on the part of homeowners and people who want flat screens and cars and things they can't afford. >> consumerism, exactly. >> is definitely a factor into where we are. >> created a bubble. and just sending people back out. >> and there are people who did quite well on the backs of people who were ripped off. >> let's not talk about fannie and freddie right now. sending consumers out to spend more is not going to get us back to where we need to be. we need to grow the middle class again, and buying flat-screen tvs is not going to do that. >> i wonder if the guy who wrote that has any kids. >> i would say we need to rebuild the middle class, yes, we need to start innovation again. but like the point we were making the other day, someone tell us how our unemployment is not only going to going to

continue at its rate, but get worse. >> well, there are long-term fixes, but the fact of the matter is, if you look at tax policy over the past 25 years, tax policy has consequences. and we set up a tax policy that really benefits people that create these exotic financial instruments that don't add jobs across middle america but turns millionaires into billionaires and, you know, we need to restructure our tax code in a way that is going to encourage the rebuilding of our manufacturing base and middle america. >> all right. on that -- >> you weren't even listening. >> no, actually. >> let's go to ruth marcus. >> no, i'm changing it given what you're saying and going to the wall stre"wall street jour." >> she's been abstemious. >> like the ant and the grasshopper. >> the flat tax sweepstakes. this is the paper's editorial. >> you see rick perry try to

explain this yesterday? >> that's a great clip. >> he was not being -- >> do we have that? all of this is bold enough that it will require an informed and articulate promoter. and the question about mr. perry is whether he can make that case better than he's been able to defend his texas record. the good news is, most of perry's competitors are thinking big. president obama wants to portray the economic debate as pro-growth government spenders verses the austerity of budget cutting. but the real debate is over whether government or the private economy is the main engine of prosperity. the flat tax puts republicans on the side of private growth and government reform. a potent combination. perhaps mr. perry and his comrades can even coax mitt romney to join the party. >> i'll say quickly the only problem with that is the fact that rick perry's tax plan probably led $5 trillion of the

national debt over the next ten years. he's talking about pixy dust. somehow it's going to pay down the debt. it's not going to happen. it hasn't happened, it's not going to happen. let's look, though. and mark haleprin got this catch. we talked earlier about how the president doing the blocking and tackling, going out, doing the right political things, whether it's in the best interest of the country or not, doing the right political things and he's now at 46% again. his approval ratings. remarkable given the backdrop of how bad this economy is. and let's go to ohio. in the state of ohio, mark, you look at a new poll out, first of all, it shows herman cain in first place, but secondly, barack obama, there's herman cain. the quinnipiac poll that came out, cain way ahead. looks like the national poll. here's the most fascinating thing, though. this president much maligned,

certainly not by anybody here on "morning joe." but this president way ahead of romney, of perry, of cain, of every republican in the field. and if the president wins ohio, he's on his way to reelection. >> it's a state with a republican governor, it's been trending republican, and the president beating everybody there now. surprising poll number really heartening for the democrats. >> no doubt about it. do you think kasik's unpopularity is a part of this? he's had a tough run. but do you think he's dragging down the republican candidates? >> i think he might be. there's a ballot measure trying to undo the labor laws. and that's very far ahead to overturn what kasik did. >> the two key swing states florida and ohio, you've got two governors, republican governors with really low approval ratings. >> and more polarizing than the president. >> yeah. willie's news you can't use

is next. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." the size of the current code is more than 72,000 pages. the best representation in my plan is this postcard. this is the size of what we're talking about right here. taxpayers will be able to fill this out and file their taxes on that. hey, everyone's eating tacos outside bill's office. [ chuckles ] you think that is some information i would have liked to know? i like tacos. you invited eric? i thought eric gave you the creeps. [ phone buzzes ] oh. [ chuckles ] yeah. hey. [ male announcer ] don't be left behind. get it faster with 4g. at&t. ♪ ♪ at&t. like so many great pioneers before me,

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is it time, willie? >> seriously, do you think t.j.'s wife knows? >> i'm begging you. >> no, seriously, t.j., stop. >> do you know how it is for mika to work with t.j. breathing in her ear like that? >> i take the ear piece out. >> it's strange like that herman cain smoking ad. >> yeah, just like that. >> when he smiles in that ad, i don't know what he's smiling about. >> there's chief of staff mark bloc. because of the ad, he blows a little smoke in your grill as you watch this ad. and yesterday, he went on fox news to explain the smoking and to refer to himself in the third person. >> well, i tell you, you walk into a -- a veterans bar in iowa and they're sitting around smoking and, you know, we are resinating with them. and i'm not the only one that

smokes in america. it's just that i'm a smoker and as a lot of the people on the staff said just let block be block. >> let block be block. >> how many times have we said this on this set? how many times have we said that? let block be block. >> it wasn't a joke. >> he said it about eight times. >> let block be block. >> all right. so -- >> our buddy chuck todd. i love chuck todd. >> he's the political guy for nbc. >> mr. chuck todd. and you go on with gayle, you'll get pulled in directions. >> what does he start talking about? >> it's amazing. >> he's like -- >> he just has to. >> like the hugh hefner of msnbc. she hits you with the politics in one hand and hits you with the sex life in the other. >> get ready, mr. todd, later on in the show i'm talking to a

woman who says she's written a book, how do get your wife to have sex with you. >> and she thinks humor does it? >> trust me, it has to be! . look at this face. >> you didsomething right with mrs. today, but somebody in the studio who said, the way i do it is i dance with my wife. i don't know if we need to go there with you, chuck todd. i don't know if you had anything to share. >> what kind of dancing? is it sort of like a jester? >> chuck handled it pretty well. >> you've got to do a little tap dance in there. well done, chuck todd. well done. >> what? >> what's wrong? >> are you confused? >> he was asked. asked and answered. >> that's what gayle king does. >> what was the jester thing? >> dance for your -- >> you think -- >> like a jester. >> i'm not going to walk you through this, he did a great job. >> do you think gayle's going to cbs? >> i have no information on

that. >> howard dean with a sweater on this morning that we're going to talk about. >> senator pat toomey, arnie duncan when "morning joe" comes back. in the school play. good. you like trees. well, i like climbing them, but i've never been one. good point. ( captain ) this is your captain speaking. annie gets to be the princess. oh... but she has to kiss a boy. and he's dressed up like a big green frog ! ewww. ( announcer ) fly without putting your life on pause. be yourself nonstop. american airlines. this is not how witness protection works! when we set you up with that little hardware store we didn't intend for your face to be everywhere. but fedex office makes it so easy. not only do they ship stuff, they print flyers, brochures -- everything i need to get my name out there. that's the problem. now we need to give you a third identity. you're paul matheson. and you're gonna run your business into the ground. erik gustafson would never do that! there is no erik gustafson.

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sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you because i'm also making you a smoothie. [ male announcer ] marriott hotels & resorts knows it's better for xerox to automate their global invoice process so they can focus on serving their customers. with xerox, you're ready for real business. insurance so they can focus on serving companies you're just a policy. at aviva, we're bringing humanity back to insurance

and putting people before policies. aviva life insurance and annuities. we are building insurance around you. the best part of cain's ad might not even be the unexpected smoking. no. the best part is the eight seconds it takes for herman cain to smile. here's a little taste.

go. ♪ i am america one voice ♪ >> holy cow. >> it's too easy is the problem. it's too easy. welcome back to "morning joe." >> look at that beautiful shot over new york. >> mike barnicle and mike haleprin are still with us. and former governor of vermont and former chairman of the national committee howard dean is with us. good to have you back. >> howard, you were just commenting off the air how fun it is to be on this side. >> it's fun to be on the side that's more organized, because that rarely happens when you're a democrat.

>> it's unbelievable. >> i want to take you through some fascinating polls. and not just talk about the republican polls that show herman cain surging ahead nationally and in swing states, but also, let's talk about president obama. >> yeah. >> his numbers are coming up. >> yep. >> and a new poll came out in ohio that has to give the white house a reason to be heartened. so this is what's happening, first of all, let's go nationally, guys. let's talk about the -- well, we'll -- when i say nationally, i mean, let's go ohio. and then we'll go national. herman cain's at 28%, mitt romney, 23%, and ron paul, newt gingrich, rick perry, michele bauchmann. and what's so fascinating, we'll see this in the national poll, as well. the tea partiers are wandering nomads. they started on michele bauchmann this summer, moved over to rick perry, immediately left perry, now they're with herman cain. and you sense they will move

from there too. but herman cain in first place there, now also in cbs "new york times" poll, herman cain sitting at 25%, was at 5% last month. mitt romney's still at 21%. gingrich at 10%, creeping up a little bit, ron paul creeping up a little bit at 8%. rick perry drops from 23% to 6%. again, the tea partiers banding him. let's talk about republicans first and then let's talk about the president. what do you make of all of these numbers? >> i think it's the anybody but romney thing. mitt romney is the favorite, is the insider favorite in the republican party, he has been that, was solidified by perry's difficult entry into the race. but they can't get their rank and file in order. >> why is that? >> it's something i've never seen before on the republican side. they're usually much more organized. they have a kind of rank order of whose turn it is. and this time, this is the tea party. the tea party's a small group, they're not going to have a huge effect on the national election -- >> in the general.

>> but they will have an enormous effect -- and they are having an enormous effect. not so much that they're derailing romney, but they are clear that they don't want mitt romney to be -- >> let me ask you about an action you know a lot about. there are a lot of republicans now quietly saying that mitt romney is the republican part's john kerry of 2004. a guy that the base just didn't want to embrace. of course, you had your rise -- >> my fall -- >> in 2003 because the democratic base did not want to marry rick perry. is there a comparison here? >> you mean john kerry? >> john kerry, i mean. >> i think that's a little unfair to john kerry. >> comparing him to mitt romney? >> yeah. >> i don't think so. >> but in a sense is that they always do this in the republican side, we don't usually do this. john kerry was the kind of anointed person. and he didn't get anointed.

and then he finally did. he earned that -- actually, he earned that. he fought back from a really difficult time. >> well, mitt romney could possibly earn it, as well. >> mitt romney could more than possibly earn it. i'd still bet mitt romney would take the nomination. but this is a real problem for these guys to be in this -- >> let's move on from the republicans. >> we're only a couple of months from the first primary. >> it's amazing. but john kerry didn't surge until the last week or so. >> that's right. the last week. >> let's go to the general election. we want to go to a swing state. in '04 it was ohio, ohio, ohio. the president, the national polls creeping up to 46% in gall gallup, but look at the swing state of ohio. this is telling, and really underlines the republicans' party. the president ahead of cain, ahead of romney, 45% to 41%. and he's ahead of perry, 47% to

36%. wow. >> yeah. the combination. this is a problem. this is the tea party influence in reverse, in a sense. they elected a lot of pretty right-wing governors, and these right-wing governors are not delivering what the public wants. >> is this as much to do with kasik in ohio? >> i believe we're going to win florida, and i believe if we win florida, we win the whole thing. ohio i thought was going to be very close. i still think it's going to be very close. but john kasik is about to get his rear end handed to him in an election on a referendum issue he should've never got out there. they thought they had the mandate to make the united states a right-wing country. and they do not. this is a centrist country. >> isn't it fascinating that the one governor that figured that out quicker than the rest is the guy from wisconsin, scott walker, who started saying a

couple of months ago, i overreached, i need to talk with the democrats. >> he's toast. >> he's not toast. he's going to win reelection. >> he's not going to be reelected because he's going to be recalled. do you understand what's happening? they're now gathering signatures. >> just like those republican senators. >> they recalled two republican senators. and if they'd recalled three, they would have lost the majority. >> howard -- i'm telling you, i'll be glad to place any bet that's legal, of course, it's interesting that he has learned faster than a lot of these other republican governors that keep charging ahead. i think you'd be surprised by wisconsin. but, mark, if you live in florida, you're not just looking at barack obama, you're looking at a governor that is in the 20s and the 30s, a republican governor. that's something we in manhattan and washington don't realize is a state-by-state battle. john's getting pounded out there, and that has an impact on all of the candidates up and on

the ticket. >> there's something else going on there. people focus on the ceiling of support, and that's a reality for him. he's not over 50 in those polls, but he's got a floor. the president's floor in a place like ohio, nationally, maybe it's low 40s, but it's probably mid-40s right now. given how bad the economy is in ohio, it's incredible he's doing that well. >> and you cannot overstate the impact of the extremist statements made by republican candidates that i call out every day on this show that right-wing freaks on the far, far right criticize me for. you can't -- it's what i talk about all the time. i talk about ohio, mike, i talk about the i-4 corridor, i talk about the suburbs of philadelphia. they go so far right, so more people will come to their blog sites, so more people listen to their radio shows, so more people will see their cable talk news shows. they don't realize that that

becomes the face of the republican party in swing states, and this is exactly what happens. >> it's happened. leave it to howard dean -- former governor of vermont, not exactly right-leaning, safe to point out. this is a centrist nation. >> howard's far, far left. >> excuse me. >> i know, but he recognizes the fact that the rest of the country live in the middle. >> a moderate. maybe in france. >> i balanced a lot more budgets than george bush ever did. >> whatever, so did -- i'm joking. >> yes, it's like -- >> joe's right on the money on this one. as much as i hate to admit. the truth is, these presidential debates are scaring the hell out of the american people. and the anti-immigration stuff, for them to skewer rick perry over immigration, i do have a

debate with my republican friend over virginia. i think we're going to run over the republicans in virginia. why? because the entire band across northern virginia are tremendous numbers of immigrants, many of them asian immigrants, many of them successful business people, normally fodder for the republican party. you cannot get somebody who has immigrated or parents have immigrated into this country to vote for a republican -- i've never seen anything like this rhetoric. we have had it historically, the know-nothings in the 1840s. this is really extremist republican rhetoric. herman cain gets on and puts up electrified fence for people to come across. >> it is so shortsighted. >> you know, i think a couple of interesting things, just play into this pattern here. chris christie's numbers -- since he has said he's not going to run for president, way up in new jersey. his job approval -- >> look at that job approval rating. chris christie is the most popular republican governor in america right now. >> yeah. >> the right track, wrong track,

mika. in new jersey, is positive for the first time since mcgreevey was governor there. >> it is -- first of all, i think he made a very good decision on a number of levels and it's reflecting on a lot of levels. but i wish -- i mean we talk about the clowns, the comics on the republican side, i wish the candidates were better. i think it'd be better for the country. we're not going anywhere. >> it's not just -- let's say the people offended by the immigration issue. because there are a lot of -- >> a big chunk of voters. >> let me tell you, it's even guys -- and i say guys, guys that have voted republican their entire life that i talk to, small business owners, the same small business owners, mike, who were scared to death of barack obama two years ago and what health care would mean for their small businesses and they'd lose jobs are now saying to me, hey, joe, what's wrong with our party? what do you mean? they have a ten to one option? to cut $10 of spending for every

$1 of increased revenue and there's not one guy out there that says he'll take that deal? i'm a business owner. so we're looking as rigid and as shortsighted and as stupid as left-wing democrats were two years ago. and so it's -- you're right, we could lose virginia, we could lose north carolina, we could lose ohio, florida, wisconsin, or minnesota because we are so overly ideological. chris christie, on the other hand, has fought the fight, but he's done deals with democrats, he's done some things that are outside this -- and it's middle american republican voters that are now scared of a lot of the people they're seeing on the debate stage late at night. >> as crazy as some of the republican debates have been. as crazy as they all have been. what have the debates done? they have given, i think, mitt romney the opportunity to run as

a moderate republican once he breaks from the pack. >> i think he's broken from the pack. >> he can run as a moderate. >> as defined by 2011 standards. >> yeah, yeah. >> jeb bush would be seen as a moderate today. >> that's true. >> when jeb, when he ran in 1998 was seen as a hard right conservative republican. and i hope it gets through on the other side, mark. because, again, the damage, and i think we all agree here, the damage that is being done night after night, debate after debate by one republican candidate after another making the stupid extremist comments that, again, may help you win a primary in northwest florida, but will lose you the presidential election every single time. that damage, that scar tissue is building up. >> chris christie speaks out against the republican party when he thinks they overreach, jeb bush did yesterday, john mccain did it, george w. bush did it. you've got to speak out against

your party when they do the wrong thing. it's the right thing to do and helps you politically. george bush did when he was running for president. >> he was the anointed guy by the insiders. >> but romney is anointed -- >> herman cain is now riding high. what was the highest you got when you were running the national polls? mid-30s? >> probably very low 30s. >> from a psychological and practical point of view, what should cain, what can cain do now to not have the bubble burst? to learn from your experience? >> here's what fuels the bubble. the bubble is the press corps. the press corps wants a race. they don't want romney to be the anointed guy. so cain has already done enough things to break his bubble. i thought the thing that was going to break cain's bubble and i can't understand these numbers, frankly, is the business about being pro-choice. cain's position on abortion is not very different than mine. i'm not in favor of people of having abortions, but it's completely their business. and that is their decision to

make. and i support the idea they ought to have a decision. well, that's exactly what herman cain said a week ago. and i can't believe that rick perry -- >> not only a week ago -- >> and herman cain is agreeing with most democrats on abortion. i'm shocked at that. i don't get it. maybe you can explain that to me as a member of the -- >> not only that, howard, he also said he'd release all the prisoners in gitmo for one american prisoner. >> then he took it back. >> he's taking all this back. >> there's a great mpiece this morning about how barack obama's foreign policy is carrying out bush quotas with foreign policy. do we have the -- lest get to obama. this is very interesting. we'll talk about that later. >> explain what you all are talking about. because "the boston globe" writes about this. >> well, it's how she's walking this fine line with the occupy

wall street movement and there's this youtube video circulating. and i want to get more of the -- >> this is the expert on massachusetts politics. >> what she did in the youtube video, she claimed credit for being the sponsor of occupy wall street. that occupy wall street came out of what she did in trying to create the consumer protection bureau. then as soon as she said it, and as soon as it went up on youtube, then she started to walk it back a little because she doesn't want to have her self-twinned with the riots -- >> riots in oakland. >> too late on that. it's already going to be in the ad. >> and people think of massachusetts as a liberal state, but the fact is -- >> it's not. it's not. >> it's not. >> it's culturally conservative in many ways. >> yeah. >> let's quickly get to the president who was on jay leno last night asked about his poll numbers. here's how he handled it. >> people are hurting out there. and they've been hurting out there for a while. and people were having a tough

time even before the crisis. you know, incomes, wages were all flat, costs of everything from college to health care to, you know, gas to food, all of it was going up. and so people were feeling a lot of pressure even before this crisis. and so i -- you know, every day i wake up saying to myself, look, you can't expect folks to feel satisfied right now. i'm very proud of the work we've done over the last two or three years, but they're exactly right, we've got more work to do. >> we did not give -- in our discussion that we just had about how all the republicans were screwing up, this guy is a changed guy since his jobs speech. he has been out there hammering -- this is the candidate that we -- on the democratic side have really wanted to see. he's on top of it, he's acknowledging people's suffering, all over the country talking about jobs. he's got it boiled down to three words -- >> he is what we've been waiting for. >> pass this bill, pass this

bill, we can't wait. every day i go up and say what has become of this? this is fantastic. he keeps this up for 13 months, and we're in. >> his numbers haven't shot up, but we talked about earlier this morning that she's doing the blocking and the tackling. every day he's going out, he's doing the same thing, and he's creeped up from 42 to 43, 45, he's at 46% right now. this is happening at the same time that the republicans are setting themselves on fire. every night on tv. >> joe, this will end up being a close race. it really will be. >> it will be. it's between 48% and 51% no matter what happens between now and election day. we're going to talk to pat toomey of pennsylvania. also this hour, education secretary arnie duncan and christy hefner. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

the president says we can't afford to wait. well, guess what? i agree with the president. we've got 15 bills that are sitting over in the united states senate, 15 bills that are part of our plan for america's job creators. sitting over in the united states senate. after we finish this week, there'll be 16 bills. sitting over in the united states senate waiting for action. it's time for the senate to work with the house and to work with the president to help find common ground to move our economy forward and get the american people back to work. 23 past the hour, live look at the sun as it comes up over washington, capitol hill. we have the republican senator from pennsylvania and member of the debt supercommittee, senator pat toomey. good to have you back on the show. >> thanks, mika. >> the debt super committee is about a month away from the deadline and i'm sure it's all worked out. everything's good. you've come together, right?

>> with a bright red bow, it's all tied up and just terrific. not quite. not quite there yet. >> not quite. what does not quite mean? >> that means we're going to be working, meeting almost daily, working long hours. >> not quite as in nobody agrees and nothing's going to come out of it? or where are we making progress? >> i didn't say that. now, listen, i'm not going to divulge everything that's happening in these discussions, but there has been progress. there are very substantive discussions going on virtually every day. and i remain cautiously optimistic that we'll reach an agreement. >> so, joe, senator pat toomey says -- because the debt super committee is about a month away from the deadline that they're not quite there yet but they're doing well. >> what's your point? >> well, i'm saying, looks like they might have the answers in terms of all the problems. >> maybe not all of the problems. >> well, the two big issues are obviously, senator, entitlements

in the long run and tax reform. how are we moving on those fronts? >> it's -- the topic of discussion every day. we know, you know, broadly speaking what needs to be done. and it's a question of whether there's the political will to do it. you know, as i say, i'm hopeful we'll get there. >> how do we grow jobs in pennsylvania and across the rest of america? it's not simply what paul krugman would suggest, which is, you know, another $1 trillion or $2 trillion in stimulus spending, and it's not what club for growth would suggest, another couple trillion in tax cuts. and you know when you go from town to town in pennsylvania that's suffering, how do we get the jobs back to central pennsylvania? how do we get the jobs back to middle america? >> i think the answer is, we create an environment where it makes sense and it's reassuring to risk capital. where it makes sense for that small business to expand, for a large business to grow. and we have not created that

environment here. we have so much uncertainty because we have a massively unsustainable deficit, a trajectory that absolutely is guaranteed -- we have a threat of huge across the board tax increases. we've layered on all unprecedented levels -- >>-up, pat, over the past decades, we've had massive tax cuts, and even in the 1990s, we fought for tax cuts when bill clinton was president. and you see where we got to in 2008. just simply cutting tax cuts and cutting regulations are not going to cure america's ills any more than a tax program. >> i prefer the individual and the corporate side, but there seems to be increasing consensus about the corporate side, for instance. so for just a moment, we have all kinds of wrong incentives. we have the second highest marginal corporate tax rate in the industrial world. we create a huge incentive to keep your money overseas.

if we simplified this, we could lower marginal rates, easily we could get to 25%, perhaps lower than that. and that would start to change incentives and encourage more investors. the regulatory side -- >> what happened, pat, though. and i agree with you ideologically, but what happened over the past 25 years as tax rates were going down in your home state of pennsylvania? from youngstown across tod daytn and toledo -- >> that's not his home state. >> i slipped over to ohio. i could say the same about redding, allentown. you haven't invaded ohio yet. go ahead. >> not yet. joe, from 1983 to 2007 was the most prosperous 25 years in the history of the world. and we had much lower taxes through the latter part of that period than we did at the beginning. in fact, it was kicked off with a big reduction in taxes. i'm not suggesting that's the whole thing, i'm saying that would help. i also think we've got -- we've

layered on tremendous regulatory uncertainty, much of it very negative. you talk to people in the energy business in pennsylvania, which i think is one of the most exciting opportunities for growth anywhere in america. the natural gas we have is a staggering quantity. but weather it's coal or refineries or the natural gas industry, they've been layered with all kinds of new regulations that is making it very, very hard for them to grow this industry. the health care bill is raising people's cost of health care and creating still further uncertainty. so i do think that the combination of unsustainable spending, excessive regulation and a ridiculously complicated tax code definitely has accumulative effect on our economy. >> you started by talking about one of the ways to get things going in pennsylvania and across the country is a couple of different elements you mentioned. one you mentioned financial institutions risking capital, in other words, lending to another thing you mentioned, small

business. and one of the things you left out of the equation is for financial institutions to risk capital and lend to small business, small businesses need people coming through the door. they need consumers. they need customers. customers need cash in their pockets, they need jobs. jobs bills proposed by the obama administration -- i don't know of many republican proposals to increase jobs in this country -- are met with an almost universal no when they come to the senate floor. what do we do about that? >> because these jobs bills haven't worked and they're not going to work. we disagree about the fundamental driver here. i don't think you can go out and the government can go out and conjure up demand from the clear blue sky and create all of this economic growth. i actually think it happens on the supply side. look at it this way, there's unlimited demand, there's always infinite demand. everybody wants a newer car, better house, services they can't afford. the challenge is, and this is the fundamental challenge of

economics, how can we provide those services and products at a price that people can afford? and that's the supply side. and so when you start layering on, you know, these huge regulatory burdens, for instance, as additional costs, you separate supply from the demand that's out there. i think it'd be better to focus on lowering that cost than finding ways to hand out money that haven't worked so far. >> senator toomey, thank you very much. >> thank you, pat. and if you will, let us know when the invasion of ohio commences. we'll be there on the ground. >> i'll give you a warning. >> thank you. coming up, a new report showing poverty could be cut in half in ten years. christie hefner in the green room with more on that. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." ♪

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34 past the hour. look at that shot of new york city. central park. joining us now, member of the center for american progress, former ceo and chairman of playboy enterprises, christie hefner. welcome back to the show.

>> we're going to talk about what you want to talk about in a little bit. >> should it be any other way? >> the front page, actually this is howard dean's idea. the front page of the "new york times" has a story about ibm having a female ceo. that's not really the story. the story is, howard, what an extraordinary job -- we all talk about steve jobs. but what has happened at ibm over the past 20 years -- >> it's incredible. >> the recreation. you talk about an american success story, it's stunning what they've done. >> unbelievable. and if you look at their stock price over the last 20 years, it is extraordinary what they've done quietly and steadily. they've turned themselves from a manufacturing company to a service company. and over the years, they've always had multiple lines of business. and they made a decision, i'm going to say, maybe 15 or more years ago that they were going to get out of the desk top computer business, which at the time i thought, oh, my lord. >> everybody was horrified. >> and vermont, we have a big stake in this.

we have a plant there that makes a few of their chips. they make such an advance product, they keep that in-house. but it's one of the great corporate success stories in america that people never talk about. >> and christie, talk about how hard it is to take an existing brand and turn that giant ship around. >> it's much harder, i think, because you're already dealing with the legacy businesses and a culture that is passionate about what they've been doing. and to make that big bet that says maybe the business we should be in is not the business we're in. or we need to double down on a part of the business we're in. is much harder. >> and ibm with 100-year history. >> yes, i actually am always more impressed by the ability to kind of reinvent a company. and the truth of it is, whether it's a small business start-up or a big turn around like that, that idea of reinvention and challenging yourself to say, who are we competing with today? and how do we compete

effectively is what everybody has to do from an individual employee to a ceo. >> here's my question. >> and by the way, virginia rametti will become ibm's ceo next year. >> let's book here. >> here's my question for mika and joe and willie, the media guys. why is it always bill gates, why aren't people talking about this unbelievably iconic american corporation, which is quietly transformed itself, whose stock price has gone crazy over the last 20 years when the market's been going down? >> part of it is i think the business press has become enamored of personality. >> that's exactly right. >> different, and so it's not as easy a story as covering jack or steve. >> it's a real culture that ibm has created. and you know, willie, ibm could've very easily gone the way of kodak. it could have very easily collapsed. >> absolutely. >> they didn't. they corrected they course in the 1980s, early 1990s, and this

is a remarkable story. i suspect other people are going to start writing about this story in the future. it is remarkable. >> they should. and i wonder to christie and to howard, what the lesson is in other companies. if they changed fundamentally what they do from manufacture to service, what does that tell other companies dealing with an entirely global economy? >> i think it's a path. i'm watching dupont right now, which not incidentally is also run by a woman. and they too have very much changed the direction of where their business is going. and looking at what's the real leverageable strengths and assets as opposed to saying, well, this is what we've always done. >> you know, i wonder if there's a pattern here or not. and you have often talked about the obama administration in fairly supportive way. is there anything in the president's jobs plan? anything he's put forward that helps promulgate stories like

this? >> well, i'm always a big fan of the training components, whether it's state or federal. because i think whether you're talking about matching the job needs we have with the skill set we have or whether you're talking about this idea of intellectual agility, the ability to change. i think the president's consistent support for the idea of investment in education and training and r & d are very supportive of the ability of corporations to do this kind of reinvention. >> and you're here because -- >> i'm here because i love you guys. >> other than that, though, also, you want to help be a part of a process that cuts poverty in half in america. right now, 1 in 6 americans are in poverty. you want to make that 1 in 3. how do you do it? >> yes, the center for american progress just issued a landmark study building on an initiative they launched back in 2008 called half in '10. and part of their premise is, we

used to talk about the social safety net as something we hoped no one would fall into. but it's a better analogy to think of it as a trampoline. because people need that ability to bounce back. and part of that very much has to do with how we think about benefits. and right now as we know, we're having a big debate about whether or not we should further cut benefits in an environment where we've got 100 million people at just two times the poverty level. >> right. >> and we've got 25 million at half the poverty level. but one of the interesting things from the study, i think, is the focus on the difference between single-wage earners. and therefore, the imperty tatf good-paying jobs. but 24% of single family earners. and that's a function of not having access to good-paying jobs and the flexibility of health care and care for children that's a necessity if you're a single parent. >> how do we create good-paying jobs in america from washington,

d.c.? we were just talking to pat toomey. and, you know, pat, now you're ideologically in line about cutting taxes and spending -- but simply cutting taxes and regulations aren't going to bring jobs back to pennsylvania any more than paul krugman inspired a stimulus package. we've got to rebuild this country back up. how do we do that? >> i agree with the point you made with toomey. which is we've lived through many years of just tax cuts, and i don't think any of us can objectively say, boy, that really worked. i think we do forget that the original stimulus bill did produce by objective estimates about 1.7 million jobs than without it. and the estimates of this job bill -- >> that's a problem, though. it created a bubble. as jeffrey sachs predicted, it will create a bubble and that bubble will burst. we saw a rise last spring, thought maybe was getting better, then the money ran out, then it went down --

>> in fairness, there are other things going on. european crisis -- >> well, sure. >> -- harmed our ability to bounce back. >> i understand. you agree with me. we're not going to create new jobs by spending in washington, d.c. >> no, not for the long-term. absolutely not. but can you get people through? that's the question. and i'm with -- >> the infrastructure piece, i think there were two pieces, and i agree with you about one piece. the piece of it that was in effect an ability to extend unemployment insurance that in effect became the bridge, that definitely is easing the pain, trying to get, you know, more consumers to the other side. but the infrastructure piece is a much more significant piece. and it has a long-term benefit, not just in terms of genuine job creation, but infrastructure. >> we're going to weave this into the next conversation because certainly there's an educational component of this. up next, the white house announces a plan to ease the burden of student loans. arnie duncan joins the conversation next. ♪

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helping business, and the world...work. rethink possible. we continue now at 46 past the hour. and joining us now from the white house, secretary of education arnie duncan. perfect timing, arnie, to have you on. >> good morning. >> great to have you. >> i want you to first of all tell us of this new plan owe before you go. >> the costs of college are going up, unfortunately, in many places. historic increases in pell grants, $40 billion, the biggest increase since world war ii, to stop subsidizing banks, giving that money to young people, we thought that was the right thing to do. controversial here in washington, but the right thing

to do. now what we're trying to do is help on the back end. reduce the monthly payments on those loans. make sure folks have a better opportunity to be successful there. less default, strength in the economy. and we can do this by ourselves. we don't have to wait for congress. we can't wait for congress. we're moving ahead today. the president will announce this later today in denver. >> i'm hearing buzz words. did you hear that? just weaved in brilliantly, howard. >> it's very good. that's what the republicans do to win and we're finally learning to do it. >> all right. so first of all -- >> just your political point of view. >> it's absolutely at this point, the student loan crisis, we've got numbers up on the screen, arnie to help us frame what we're talking about here. you talked about on the back end, christie hefner, mike barnicle, and now willie joining the table. we were talking about getting people through this crisis so when jobs start to percolate again there are people there ready to work. in terms of getting people to pay for college to be able to pay for college, tell us about know before you owe.

>> so on the back end, once you graduate from college, those monthly repayments can go down to as little as 15% of your monthly income. and if you're coming out of college this june, this school year, it can go down as much as 10%. we encourage everyone to look at the website. studentaid.ed.gov. we want to reduce those monthly payments up to $200. both for recent college graduates as well as those currently in school. we urge people to take advantage of this opportunity. >> mike barnicle? >> mr. secretary, let's back up before we get to college and talk about education in general in this country. we've been talking earlier today about the staggering differences in income equality in this country. increasingly so. in a rapidly disappearing

fragmented middle class. what is the obama administration doing that is different from past administrations about k-6, k-8 education with the sense that the fundamentals of addressing income quality -- inequality in this country have to do with good jobs down the road and education obviously is a critical component of that. what are you doing that's different, that's geared toward that product? >> education is the key to the american dream and the goal of every single young person in this country has to be some form of higher education. vocational technical training, whatever it might be. i was starting before that. great early childhood education, and right now we're investing over $500 million through the third round of race to the top in states that want to increase access and then increase quality. we're working very hard to bring better teachers into classrooms. we're trying to keep teachers in classrooms so the class size doesn't skyrocket.

right now with the american jobs act, trying to get that passed. one thing we're proud of, 44 states raise standards, college and career ready standards for every single standard. whether you're a child in massachusetts, maryland, or mississippi, you'll be measured by the same yardstick. historically, politicians polith parties dummied down standards, bad for education, bad for the country and the economy, those days are basically over. >> i understand, i think most people understand, the things vary from school district to school district from state to state, but one of the universal disturbing things is if you ride past a high school, almost any public high school, at 2:00, 2:15 in the afternoon, the day is done. and they're walking out. kids are walking out with no books, no homework whatsoever. how do you address that? >> that's a real problem.

everywhere i go i think they should be open six or seven days a week, 11 or 12 months out of the year. we need afterschool programming, dance, drama, arts, music, debate, all those types of activities we need to keep students engaged in school. make sure they're not dropping out. make sure they are going on to college. school systems have to do this but they can't do it alone. the ymcas, the boys clubs, our schools are great physical assets, great resources. they all have gyms, they have libraries, they have computer labs, they don't belong to me or the principal or the union, they belong to the community, we need to open them up. >> it's also a matter of how many hours you're teaching them in schools, and we just went through and are going through as arne knows very well a major change in chicago under rahm. >> really brought the unions to

the table and it is unacceptable in this century that we have the shortest school day, the fewest number of school days compared to any on othther country, and need to extend the school day, what we have to remember is the school system is all about the students and not about the administrators and the teachers, it's about the students. >> quick, arne duncan. >> you are exactly right. that's the debate that is finally getting the light. i'm so proud of that. the children in chicago or anywhere in the country, the children are as smart or as creative and talented as any children in the world. our children aren't competing in the country and the state for jobs, they are competing with children in india and japan and south korea and in many of those countries they are going longer hours, 25, 30, 45 more days. i just want our students to have a chance to compete on a level

playing field. if we do that for them, our children will be wildly successful. we have to give them the opportunity. >> thank you very much. you come back. >> let's do that. >> let's talk about the school system in chicago. i'm fascinated by it. more "morning joe" in a moment. [ wind howling ] [ technician ] are you busy? management just sent over these new technical manuals. they need you to translate them into portuguese. by tomorrow. [ male announcer ] ducati knows it's better for xerox to manage their global publications. so they can focus on building amazing bikes. with xerox, you're ready for real business. ♪

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♪ this afternoon in the same line as the herman cain, the guy who looks like he's from the elks club, you know? hey, why don't you vote for our guy? you can park across the street. another one of these, take a look at this one. >> rich lowery here. chief economic adviser for herman cain. government must get off our backs, out of our pockets and out of our way.

♪ good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set we have mike barnicle and mark halperin. >> the herman cain ad the idea is to be talked about, you know, that was the cigarette drag heard around the world. >> okay. >> and the guy, you see the polls that came out? number one with a bullet! >> i can't start the newscast with him leading in the polls. >> yes, we can. it's exciting. >> no, i won't do it. >> yes, we can. yes, we can. >> this is the dawning of the age of herman cain, no, this is -- hey, hey, hey -- >> what is wrong with your party? >> smoke them if you got them. >> where are the people? >> he's number one. >> really. >> yeah. >> the texas governor had a number -- >> oh, my god. >> here's the pitch. new congressional approval

rating is 9%. historic lows. rick perry is below 9%. >> oh, my gosh. who are the 9% that's what i want to know? the extended family is the natural prey of the coyote, their party. but holy cow, let's be positive. herman cain, cain mania, he rides to jfk to be screening girls and -- i can't believe. you remember murray? >> you were part of my act when you can ask who surrey is. >> let's talk about the 99%. >> a dramatic scene in oakland where police clashed with hundreds of protesters at the occupy wall street movement after repeated warnings to clear the area, riot police fired tear gas into the crowd. as the occupy wall street movement continues to gain momentum, a new cbs news/"new

york times" poll suggests where the anger is coming from. 66% polled say money and wealth is not fairly distributed in the u.s., and the latest report from the congressional budget office reaffirms that the we are the 99% rallying cry of the occupy wall street protesters. the report finds that between 1979 and 2007, the top 1% of americans with the highest incomes have seen their incomes grow by 275%. by comparison, the 60% middle-income earners saw their incomes rise by just 40%, and by 18% for the bottom 20%. >> look at that number. look at that number on the far right, the income inequity is a real challenge. i remember talking to frank litch a year ago and frank saying this is -- this is the issue. this is the issue that is a threat whether you're a conservative or liberal, democrat or republican, this is a big threat to america's economic well-being in the

future. and, boy, mike, a year later, a lot of people are talking about what frank was talking about last year. >> yeah. and still, as it was a year ago, two years ago, the most important word in the english language is spelled j-o-b, job, that's the way to address income equality in this country, jobs and education. we spend too little on education in terms of spending it the proper way, training and everything like that. jobs and education and that kind of income inequality. >> the rich are getting richer because of exotic financial instruments on wall vote, because of tax breaks, because of 25 years of certain changes in our tax code, so there's a second contributing factor and then there's a hallowing out of the middle-class, and the middle-class is not just hallowing out because the rich are getting richer. they are not just getting hallowed out because china and india are taking our jobs, it is

hallowing out for historic reasons and that makes this battle a heck of a lot harder for politicians to get a grasp on. >> what makes it a challenge is the long-term trends that you illewd i alluded to that makes it difficult. neither party is particularly well equipped to talk about it. the president doesn't want to engage in so-called class warfare and a lot of this, some of it has happened on his watch. it's hard for republicans to give a grand overarching explanation both in why it happened and what to do about it, it runs up against a lot of the things they care about. >> i want to add one thing before we get to the next story, the report also goes on to cite the rapid growth of celebrity salaries and. the increasing size of the financial services industry and changes in executive compensation as major contributing factors to the disparity, i mean, there is -- i was at an event yesterday and there were a lot of questions as to what this occupy wall street means. this is what it means. this is what it means. people are angry.

they don't have to necessarily know exactly what they're asking for, but they don't like their situations, isn't that fair enough? that's unfair at this point. >> it is. and because of the political situation that we live in, you won't find many people talking about it. you certainly won't find anybody in the occupy wall street movement or the tea party movement agreeing that this anger has the same source. >> right. >> it has the same source. and they may not want to hear it, but it's the truth. it is a vanishing middle-class. it's the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer. economic malaise that is -- that is going to stretch possibly to the next decade. and, you know, the answers from bo both sides, with all due respect to paul krugman, if you hear paul krugman and read, his suggestion is another trillion or two trillion in stimulus spending. what jeffrey sachs says, all that would do is create an artificial bubble.

it wouldn't rebuild the middle-class. might get us working for another year, then we collapse again, $2 trillion deeper in debt. then you listen to the republicans, they are talking about tax cuts. they're taking it from the other side. and guess what, we could reduce the taxes down to 20%, maybe 15%, maybe we get an artificial bump for a year or two, three, four, five and then we collapse again. both sides, both ideological camps are ill equipped to handle the problem that we're facing now and, again, this is a 25-, 30-year structural challenge to this country. ideology, ideology, is not sufficient to the task we face today. >> and i think most americans recognize that right now. they don't have a government in washington that's up to the task, that's in front of us right now. that's why i think the mockery and the dismissal by a lot of people in the press of what's happening with these occupy wall street movement is so shortsighted. sure, there are some people out there not there for the right reasons, but they're not out

there because they think it's cool to be out there or, yeah, we get to protest just like the '60s, they're out there because they can't find jobs. they're out there because this country is going this way for 1% of the country and the other way for 99% of the country and they don't believe they have a government, even though some of them may like president obama, who can tackle this problem. >> and that's -- >> or progressives. >> that's the depressing part. they got the guy in the white house. >> right. >> but, again, this is not going to be solved -- i've said it before, i'll say it again. we've been talking about this nonstop for months now. this isn't going to be solved by a republican or a democrat in the white house. this isn't barack obama's fault. it's not george w. bush's fault. it is -- it is a collection of presidents who decided, mark, over the collapse of america's middle-class, over the collapse of our industrial base, over the collapse of middle-class, working-class union memberships and households going down to 7%

in the private sector now. this is a long-term trend. does any politician have the guts to stand up and say, i can't fix this in a day. i can't fix this in a week. i can't fix this in a quarter, we're going to have to work on this possibly for the next decade? >> i got to say with all due respect to the last two presidents, bill clinton really did see this as the animating reason for his presidency. he's having a big economic conference on friday in washington where he's going to -- he's going to talk about and his former advisers are going to talk about their vision. the press has been somewhat -- >> can i stop you there, though? so much of what happened in 2008 goes back to what he and larry summers and bob ruben were pushing in the 1990s and especially 1990. >> i said vision, not execution. >> well, their vision was a wall street-centric vision. >> to some extent, and i think they overcompensated a little bit, because as a democrat you

don't do it, you hit get by business. willie said the press has been dismissive of occupy wall street, i agree with that. this is the crisis of our time. republicans would be both substantively correct and political smart to embrace the elements of occupy wall street that have to do with the critique what's gone on in our society. they've not done it. the republican nominee can gain political advantage and do the right thing if they take the ideas of that and develop a long-term solution. >> let's talk about a -- >> if i were a republican candidate running -- >> uh-huh. >> -- i would be all over it. >> yeah, i would. the president -- >> i would. this president, let's just talk pure politics, this president is wed to wall street. he's got more money from wall street than any candidate in u.s. history. even this election cycle he's got more money from wall street than all other republican candidates combined. the republicans should embrace this, because this income despaisparit disparity, let's face it, most of the people sitting at the top, they didn't give money to

john mccain and sarah palin. >> they want the money from wall street and this president has been harder on wall street than they other president and, by the way -- >> no, no, you are being so ideological blinded! the president has gotten more money -- why -- >> he has! i'm not -- >> why would you say that? >> i'm not negating it, i'm just adding information to what you're saying. >> well, the president wants money from wall street. >> and apparently he's getting it -- >> yes, he is. >> but it doesn't change the fact that he's been harder on wall street than any other president. in >> he hasn't been harder on wall street. >> yes, he has, and it's the republicans who have gotten in the way in his attempts to rein in -- >> you decided to wave the flag for barack obama. >> i am not. >> you are. the president is owned by wall street! look at his -- if we started running the contributions the president has received from the richest people on wall street, it would take an hour to run the

list. >> it would also take an hour to talk about all the things he's done to take on wall street -- >> it would take two minutes. >> that's not true. >> mike, how much at these fund-raisers he goes down to wall street, you started this, let the record reflect, you started this, but if you -- you just -- it's just not true. i can't let you say things that are just not true. mike, how much are these -- how much are these -- these fund-raisers -- he goes down to wall street. so he kicks the hell out of these wall street guys and then he goes to the backrooms with the richest people on the planet and he sits there and eats whatever with them, lobster or whateve whatever, shish kebab and gets $38,000 per head. >> you know, one of the problems here in this discussion about this issue is that we tend to focus on things like wall street. a year from now we'll be focusing on something else. history moves so quickly. and the issue of income

redistribution, income inequality in this country, a lot of it i think has to do in the root of looking back 20 years. 20 years ago, if you're 18 years of age and you graduated from high school in massachusetts or california, your competition was out there graduating from high school in florida or michigan. some other 18-year-old kid. and now it's someone in india or someone in thailand or someone elsewhere around the world, because it's now a global economy. and we're just not prepared -- >> right. >> -- to sit down and figure what is it that we do best. >> but, mike, this is what's so irritating, okay? again, you'll remember this. we have been bitching as a country now for 35, 40 years about other people taking control. and we have -- remember 1974? remember opec? remember the energy crisis in '74? oh, we don't control oil anymore, it's those arabs, blah,

blah. you heard that throughout the 1970s. and then the late 1970s we started beating up japanese immigrants in detroit, stories of japanese people getting beaten up in michigan because they were selling hondas and nissans. this didn't just start. this has been going on -- >> absolutely. >> -- since the '70s and we always seem shocked every three or four years that we're in a global economy. we've had no energy policy. jimmy carter, i tip my hat to jimmy carter, he had one. he had one, and if we'd pursued it aggressively like jimmy carter wanted, we'd be in a lot better place right now. and you can go down the list. detroit shocked every four or five years by what goes on. this is a long-term trend. what mika wants to blame on the republican party and tom delay or newt gingrich or whomever. >> at some point our politics became such that everyone -- everyone running for office -- lived only in the moment. never took the long view. >> right. >> never articulated the longer

view. lived only for the moment to get re-elected. >> i know. all i can say is, mika, thank god we elected barack obama. electioa can we book elizab warren, she's running for senate, the republicans drove her out of the and they will not allow -- >> and warren will tell people off camera that the president didn't have the courage to nominate her to that position, because, oh, wait, what would happen, mika? she would upset his friends on wall street, so barack obama is friends with -- barack obama's friends on wall street told him not to take elizabeth warren to run the agency that she set up, and the president said, okay. >> no. i think -- >> that's exactly what happened. i can't believe you would bring up elizabeth warren. >> i'll bring up elizabeth warren. >> a lot of democrats on capitol didn't want her in the job either. >> wall street money is

powerful, isn't it? >> it sure is. you ought to think about it. >> boy, that was some comeback. >> you really are going to look at me in the face and say this president has not tried? >> he's owned by wall street. he is owned by wall street. he gets more money than anybody else in u.s. political history, even this cycle. you know, he talked really tough about wall street in 2007 and then took all their money. >> why, joe? >> and make things happen. you bring up elizabeth warren, it's so interesting that you bring up elizabeth warren, she wanted the job, she didn't get it because barack obama's powerful friends on wall street told her not to. >> actually because the republicans drove her out. you can have your own narrative. let me ask you something, why aren't the republicans taking on this president about being owned by wall street? >> because they're owned by wall street, too. >> okay. >> i've said it. i don't know where you've been for the past several years, but republicans are owned by wall street. democrats are owned by wall

street. the president's owned by wall street. the only difference is, there's only one of those three that's pretending they're not owned by wall street, and that's the president. it's called hypocrisy. >> you can't deny the point that the president has been tougher on wall street than anyone else. >> than any other president in history, come on! >> tougher than anybody -- >> admit it. >> -- it's like the mtv parties and deciding which hollywood producer was tougher on his 16-year-old daughter. they all spoil and pamper the same. >> perfect metaphor. coming up next, is obama the teflon president? we're going to bring in jonathan altar who questions why the obama administration has seemingly gone longer than most without a lasting scandal. and in a few minutes, best-selling author and columnist chuck fosterman will be here. but, first, bill karins, another question, another -- >> why the hell is he here? i don't understand.

>> with the forecast. >> we all have the same questions, guys, every morning. it's just an endless cycle. good morning, everyone, snow is on the way, it's falling in many areas in colorado already. got a surprise for people in new england, it looks like you'll see the first snowflakes later in the week. these are pictures from golden, colorado, waiting for the sun to come up, 4 or 5 inches of snow on the ground, denver could see 8 to 12 inches. let's talk about new england. the showers are going through, it will be kind of a gloomy day with a lot of clouds. temperatures will be down today especially in northern new england, in the 40s and 50s. new york and philly, a few sprinkles and not a lot of rain. tomorrow, another storm heads our way and look at areas like buffalo and albany, it's cold enough that our computers are thinking we could end up with some snow. the snow forecast even calling for as much as 3 to 6 inches of snow from the poconos to the catskills and maybe the berkshi berkshires. the other story is the heavy snow of colorado that's where we're thinking possibly up to 1

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the scandal making huge waves in washington and has put team obama on the offensive. >> solyndra with the $535 million than 35 states got for their highways, roads, and

bridges. >> evidence of what may be a cover-up in that federal gun-running sting. >> this whole business about this operation fast and furious really blew up. >> want to get you now to the latest on shirley sherrod, for the past few days she's been flooded with apologies, perhaps the biggest one, though, coming yesterday from president obama. >> political storm that nearly destroyed shirley sherrod. >> a very controversial figure in the obama administration steps down. >> now jones is looking for a job himself. he's under fire for some pointed comments about republicans and a petition that he signed back in 2004 questioning what the bush white house knew about 9/11. he has now resigned. >> interesting. a quick look at a few of the so-called scandals that have come up during obama's presidency, but so far all have seemingly fizzled out more quickly than controversies in other administration. joining us now is jonathan alter who writes in the "washington

monthly" why washington freeding frenzies are not what they used to be, why aren't they what they used to be? >> well, there are a lot of reasons and i think one of the most important is that in the same way that a fish rots from the head, it also navigates from the head, right? and obama laid down the law very early that he was going to shoot first and ask questions later when it came to firing people who where there was some, you know, issue. he wouldn't let things fester and then they couldn't resonate as much in the media. he also had fewer investigative reporters than you used to have. you know, talk is cheap on television. and reporting actually digging is expensive. >> so, does it come down to loyalty? that this president is far more willing to throw people under the bus if things go bad? >> he is more willing to do that. and it's a double-edged sword. it makes for a cleaner

administration. and he's clean himself which the american people seem to believe in the polls whatever they think of his policy, but it also means you'll get fewer of those kind of swashbuckling, entrepreneurial types who might have some sketchy things in their background but also might be more creative at solutions for the country. so, the vetting process was so over the top -- >> oh, it was. >> -- that they, you know, got rid of or didn't even hire certain kinds of people who might have caused them problems but also might have brought something to the table. >> i was going to say, mike, does this keep the best out of government? not just in this administration. take a guy like tom daschle, mike, tom daschle, pushed aside during the stupidity of a process that weeds out far too many. >> and tim geithner who didn't know how to pay his taxes gets to be secretary of the treasury. about the you mentioned obama was quick to fire. who did he fire?

>> actually -- they're not senior people, but the people like assistant secretary of labor, there were some questions about contracting. gone in a day. remember shirley sherrod? now, that wasn't obama himself, i'm saying, it's a double-edged sword. they did not want to let anything fester. so, there are many examples of stories that surfaced for less than a full news cycle, the person was gone. none of us got a chance to really talk about it. there's also -- but there are a lot of other explanations, too, there's been really pretty impressive oversight of the -- of the stimulus money. you know, $787 billion and you would think -- i certainly expected that there would be a lot more scandals with the way that money was spent. you can say, well, they didn't spend it well. some people might argue that. but that's not the same thing as saying that it was stolen or somehow abused. >> right. >> so, they've got some real good oversight run by joe biden.

>> we lead the stealing to the iraqis and the afghans, they are stealing billions from us. but they're good at it. that's another story. >> you mentioned in the piece solyndra and how they never really made it to the front page. conservatives would say because of media that works for barack obama did not push those stories. >> yeah. >> there was a pew study that came out that actually said objectively that the media has not sided with obama. what do you make of the media's role in this scandal-free administration? >> well, first of all, solyndra could still resonate. we don't know. the story is still coming out. but what happened with that was that it turned out that it was a bipartisan thing. obviously to lose close to half a billion dollars on this green energy deal is not pretty. >> was that undercover do you think, though? >> no, i don't think it was. because it turned out, from what we know so far that you had, you know, some campaign contributors in the bush administration who were connected to solyndra, some

campaign distributors in the obama administration connected to solyndra, it wasn't sort of fixed within -- >> what of the bush administration? let's say george w. bush's white house had said we're not going to release e-mails from the president on this issue, how would the press respond to that? >> first of all, there were so many examples of that in the bush administration, the bush administration -- where they, you know, stonewalled on many, many different stories that came up, and sometimes they got away with it. the bush administration actually got post-9/11 period they had no scandals. they went almost as long as obama did, and then in the second term things started -- i would imagine in the second -- obama has a second term, the same thing would happen to him. >> did the press push a little bit harder? >> the press always pushes hard. >> to have the white house reveal more about solyndra. >> the press always pushes hard. here's the reason why a lot of these things that don't resonate, the polarization, it

means that scandals don't get as much traction because they are seen in a partisan context, so people go, oh, well this is just darrell issa trying to get the president or when fox went after van jones, that was all seen in kind of a partisan context. scandals only register -- >> right. >> -- when they are seen as beyond bipartisanship. >> what about an exhaustion? during the clinton era you had the government reform and oversight committee where dan burton was investigatingving, and then you had waxman running government reform while bush was president. he was investigating everything. now you talk about issa who has been far less ideological than those previous two. but still at this point, i am taking the investigation part of the process, is there just a collective exhaustion after 20 years of this yelling and screaming and americans and some of the press just, like, get out? >> yes. and they dismantled some of the

machinery of scandal in the special prosecutors that in the clinton years were appointed for every kind of possible story whether it was a scandal or not. part of it is also whether it fits with what people perceive to be a pattern. >> right. >> so if -- you know, when bill clinton ran into trouble on sex, it was seen as part of the pattern -- >> right. >> -- and everyone when there were abuse-of-power questions under bush, it seemed like a pattern after 9/11, there doesn't seem to be that kind of pattern for obama and he's benefiting from it. he's got the other kinds of problems that will not necessarily get him re-elected, but i think it will help that he's seen by the american public as being a clean president. >> yeah. >> jonathan alter, thank you very much. your article is in the "w monthly." >> i think there's a collective exhaustion after all of these years of scandal. very interesting.

i guess i'm the only one who thinks -- >> i agree with you. >> i'm joking. we'll talk to chuck klosterman about his new novel. keep it right here on "morning joe." i want healthy skin for life.

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joining us author and essayist chuck klosterman out with a new book "the vinvisible man." good to have you back on the show. >> thank you. >> he's mr. grantland. why would you let someone do that? >> he seemed excited, and it seemed lucrative. >> transparent. >> i've got a website started up, you're going to make lots of money. >> it's weird, though, it's not a starup it's from espn so it's sort of like msnbc starting up i guess after nbc. >> it's a great site, though, isn't it? >> i hope so. >> how rich are you now? >> oh, i can afford suits to wear in the morning. >> that's good. it's a good start. that's a good start. >> willie, you are talking about college football predictions. >> i don't want to talk about it. we all write things on the internet we don't mean. i think you were excited about some teams that have actually

shut down their programs. midway through the season. let's talk about the book. >> yeah, let's talk about the book. >> "the visible man." >> "the visible man." as always you challenged us here. first of all, describe who the visible man is, he's like us in some way. >> i don't know if he's like us, like someone. the book basically is an attempt -- i would feel weird if somebody else described it this sort of simply, but kind of what it would be like to be the therapist for a psychotic invisible man who would come in and sort of describe his guilt and the problems that arise when you spend your life observing people when they don't realize they're being observed. >> there's a guy who developed cloaking technology who can make himself invisible and peek in other people's lives? >> that's always the problem when you have an invisible person you have to construct some way that he can be

invisible. in the classic invisible man stories it was often these possession potions, in the h.g. wells novels it was the refraction of light, 1.33 or something. i kind of had this idea that this man had been working for some, of course, military-related operation where they were trying to create this kind of active camouflage, and then he takes the material and decides to use it for his own purposes. >> but i guess the core question is what you get out of the book is, are we our most pure, truest selves when we're alone, when we think no one is watching? >> well, in writing this, you know, i started writing this when i was still working on my previous book which is nonfiction. >> right. >> and there's an element in that book about interviewing and the problems with interviewing and sort of kind of the inherent weakness in trying to get information from people by asking them questions, because a lot of times the interview process sort of changes the meaning and the context of what

they say, so i was just sort of thinking, well, what would be a better way than interviewing? if you wanted to understand human nature, what would be one possibility? one way even though it would be obviously unethical to observe people when they are not aware that they are being watched. are people perhaps onto themselves or only totally comfortable when there is no one else around? they are not editing themselves in any way. so, i kind of create this character who goes into people's houses when they're alone and tries to sort of understand the nature of being alive, but, of course, that's a flawed process, too, and then as he talks to his therapist he essentially just interviews himself, so he kind of contradicts his own premise. >> it's interesting, because mike barnicle sneaks into people's homes and observes them, but he's not invisible. >> exactly. >> why do i suspect when you were writing this you were invisible, this is something you always wanted to do, eavesdrop on people's lives. >> this is the problem i have,

because i've always done first person writing, i've always done memoirs, and people think that's how i write. a friend of mine read this book really early on, initially i thought you were the therapist but now i realize you're the invisible man. i'm not really either of them or i guess i'm both, you know, it's just how it works. that just happens to everything i write, people assume it's me talking directly at them. >> you say you can barely afford a suit and now you can. >> he's rich now because -- >> i'm the 1%, yes. occupying wall street changed my life. >> i wonder what's going on. >> these socks? these are nba socks. >> wow, those are great. >> look at those socks, nba socks with turquoise. >> i would worry about you. >> a shallow take on my nature, you are looking at my socks to figure out what i'm like. >> you can learn a lot by looking at things people don't think you are looking at like mike barnicle. >> if you say -- you frame it by

going, like, well, you're so successful but here i am looking at your socks, it doesn't seem as though -- >> it's funny. >> here's our reference, okay? i go to mlb socks but i'm not wearing them. you got nba socks. >> oh, barnicle. >> my socks are locked out. >> so, why did you write this book? why did you write this book? >> why did i write it? >> why? >> well, writing is fun. >> yeah. >> and i had an idea -- >> where were you when you came up with the idea? >> i was in leipzig, germany. >> really? what were you doing when you came up with this idea? >> what i was working. we what was i doing. i was working on this other book. and i was asked to teach a college course in leipzig, germany, and i don't know why, i'm not saying in some self-deprecating way, i got the e-mail and he said we'll tell you when i got there, and he said, didn't you tell you? no one knows.

i find myself in this apartment in germany, and it's on the east side of germany, that means the second language is russian. so, i kind of overlooked the problem of living in a country where you don't speak the language. so, i was in this apartment when i wasn't teaching and i was working on this nonfiction book, so i guess i was just sort of thinking -- and i also had a chance to reread the original "invisible man" by h.g. wells and that obviously plant the seed. are you asking a different question? >> i wanted to know the creative process what were you doing when the lightbulb went on over your head and you thought, do you know what, this would be a great concept to move forward with. i know where you were. >> there wasn't, like, a bolt of lightning i suppose. >> no. >> it more has to do with sometimes you want to talk about ideas and they are problematic ideas but you still think they're interesting and it's difficult to write about these ideas in a nonfiction setting. those ideas will then be attached to you. >> it would be boring as well. >> it depends on how you do it,

i guess. i wanted to have a character or multiple characters who could say things i thought were interesting that weren't directly coming from me. >> exactly. >> i think that's a big reason why people like to make up characters. >> all right, chuck klosterman thank you very much for coming on and talking about your auto biographical book. >> thanks so much. >> thank you for having me. >> we are big fans. up next, berlusconi helps broker a deal why europe teeters on gi sadisaster, but will it c him his job? "business before the bell" "is next. [ female announcer ] from an earache...

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of course, about cnbc's melissa francis trying to get along with the other 99% of us. she's with us now at the cnbc headquarters in new jersey! >> i am the 99%. you're the 1%. i don't know how you keep forgetting that. >> how do i keep mixing that up? >> i'm not really sure, but, you know, we're watching europe overnight. that's what the markets are really focused on. prime minister silvio berlusconi of italy pulling a deal, a rabbit out of the hat overnight getting the government to agree to raise the retirement age from 65 to 67. the european summit will continue today where they are talking about bankrolling italy's enormous debt. there's a huge catch for berlusconi, reportedly he offered his resignation a couple of times overnight and it's unclear whether his government accepted it. some reports out of italy are saying we could see him step down next month. there are only two guys who have been prime minister longer than berlusconi and one is mussolini.

he's survived charges of crumbaticrumb ati crumbation corruption and sleeping with young women, and what will take him down, social security and raising the retirement age. no wonder politicians here in the u.s. are so afraid of touching social security, look at what is happening in italy. >> it's a fascinating point, the italian government in the '70s and 'wr80s, they rose and fell a couple of weeks' time and berlusconi, melissa is exactly right, berlusconi has done something that no italian prime minister has done since the last guy that did this ended up on a meat hook upside down in the center of london -- i mean, rome. >> it could end like that, i'm joking, of course. >> come on. what a thing to say about a guy who has bunga bunga parties. >> finish your thought, go

ahead. >> i said we'll see over the next few months exactly what happens because there's so many conflicting reports coming out of italy right now as to what deal was brokered overnight. but, you know, he has just survived so much that it will be interesting to see if this is the thing that finally derails him. >> yeah, wow. barnicle? >> big. can you imagine surviving what berlusconi has survived. >> it's unbelievable! >> just the bunga bunga parties. >> he makes bill clinton look like the pope. this guy has survived everything. what about melissa surviving wall street, she's safely across the river and at cnbc headquarters. >> a girl can only stand in front of the new york stock exchange for so long before i realize i've been jilted by you, joe, i finally came up and came back to jersey. what can i do? i waited and i waited and i waited and you never showed up. >> did i not say i was going to go down there. >> you didn't do it, that's the problem. >> you know, the kids love you down there. i'll have to make a trip down there sometime.

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oh, i love it! >> that is fantastic. >> we got to develop a show that is about what happens in the breaks. >> it's called the breaks. >> not what i actually said. we cleaned up a lot. welcome back to "morning joe." it is great to have you here. let's go to willie right now, he's going to tell us what he learned today. willie? >> i learned something from our control room, two days ago it was 80 degrees in denver, right outside in colorado, it is snowing this morning. >> tebo said the weather would be snow. it was snow. what did you learn, mike? >> i learned that howard dean and mr. rog