for college and a new report shows just how much it's costing students and their parents. plus, something you'll see for the first time this hour on msnbc. are african-americans rushing to fill jobs left vacant by illegal immigrants who fled alabama? a special report on the fallout from the toughest immigration law in the nation. hi, everybody, great to have you with me today. i'm thomas roberts. we get straight to it. we begin with a violent turn in the occupy wall street protests, just as a new poll shows growing anxiety over the economy, a deepening distrust of washington, and a sense of the disproportionate growth between the poor and the middle class. basically, increasingly getting the short end of the stick. the protests heated up on opposite ends of the country in oakland, california. look at this, it looked like a scene right out of europe. several hundred protesters caught up in an intense standoff with police in riot gear who fired tear gas five times in about three hours to quiet the agitated crowd. and you can see bright flashes of light and a haze of chemical

smoke hanging in the air as the protesters then scatter around downtown oakland. some of them, in return, started throwing rocks. city officials say two officers were injured and at least five protesters arrested during those evening clashes. >> like, we have a few minutes, and then even before the minute passed, they just started shooting off. and then even after the fact that everybody left, they kept shooting. the only thing we have to do is just continue to march. that's all that we can do to change things. because if we keep running away, nothing's going to happen. >> around midnight, dozens more arrested by s.w.a.t. teams by an occupy rally that took place in georgia. demonstrators were handcuffed with plastic twist ties and taken away on buses. a new poll shows a near majority, 43% of americans, agree with the sentiment at the core of the occupy wall street movement. robert reich is a professor of economics at the university of california at berkeley, a cnbc contributor, and the one-time labor secretary during the clinton administration. professor, it's nice to see you

this morning. i want to start with pointing out the two additional aspects that have also come from "the new york times," the poll, 89% of americans, they don't have much trust that government will do the right thing. and two-thirds of people polled don't think that money is distributed fairly. professor, these are two issues that fuel the occupy movement. is the anxiety over the economy, as well as the gridlock in washington, d.c., really reaching a head here? >> well, i think they're related, thomas. the anxiety over the economy is reaching a huge level in not just poor americans and lower middle class americans, but also just average, typical americans. they may not be protesting, but they are worried, obviously, about their jobs, their mortgages, their -- the median wage continues to drop and yet we know that health care costs are rising 9%. people are having a harder and harder time saving for their kids' college. you know, this is the worst economy since the great depression. it's not as bad as the great depression, but it's the worst economy we have been through,

hitting ordinary americans, since the great depression of the 1930s. and so, it's not surprising that americans are upset with the major institutions of the united states, not only do they not trust government, but they are deeply distrustful of the rich, of wall street, of ceos, corporate ceos, who now are taking home about 350 times what the average worker is taking home. that was 40 times just 30 years ago. 350 times. and so, inevitably, in america, a lot of people say, well, this is un-american. this is not what this nation was founded on, and if i'm -- i'm not going to take to the streets, most people don't want to do that. i'm certainly not going to be violent, but there is this deepening discontent. >> sir, a lot of people in washington taking notice, but it doesn't seem to be doing much with the gridlock there. congressman paul ryan, he delivered this scathing attack on the president in the last hour, talking directly about that, the gridlock there in

washington, d.c.. >> the president has opted for divisive rhetoric and the broken politics of the past. he's going from town to town, impugning the motives of republicans, setting up strawmen and scapegoats and engaging in intellectually lazy arguments as he tries to build support for punitive tax hikes on job creators. >> professor, the polls still show, though, the majority of americans think the gop policies, which do favor the rich, are out of touch. so which party faces the bigger backlash here from the american people when it comes to 2012? >> well, thomas, if you look at the polls, and again, i'm just going by what the polls are showing, most americans do believe that taxes should be raised on the rich. that includes republicans. 51% of republicans, a small majority of republicans say taxes should be increased on the rich to deal with our huge budget deficit problems. and yet, not a single republican in congress is willing to go along with that. indeed, if you look at what has happened in congress, i think

only a fair reading can be, and only a fair person would say republicans have just said no to absolutely everything. the gridlock really, i mean, i think, again, polls show most americans believe that the gridlock starts and ends with the republican party in washington. >> former labor secretary, robert reich. sir, it's nice to see you this morning. thanks for your time. >> thanks, thomas. president obama is wrapping up his west coast swing with a major new plan aimed at helping americans getting crushed by student loans. and as you can see from these startling new numbers, help is really sorely needed. take a look. this morning, the college board reported tuition costs are up more than 8% at four-year schools. and outstanding student loans, after mortgages, are the biggest household debt, even bigger than credit cards. nbc's kristen welker traveling with the president and joining us now this morning. kristen, it's another executive move by the commander in chief. so what can students, past and present, expect to hear today that's going to help them out? >> reporter: hey, there, thomas. as you can hear, things are getting underway here at this

denver university where the president's expected to speak in just over an hour. here's what we expect to hear. we expect the president to announce the acceleration of a measure that was passed by congress that would essentially. cap student loan payments at 10% of a graduate's salary as compared to 15%. he's also going to announce an initiative that would allow graduates to consolidate certain federal loans so they could pay them off at lower interest rates. the white house estimates that alone could impact as many as 5.8 million people. the idea here, thomas, is to free up revenue for these graduates, so that they can spend more, and in turn, help to stimulate the economy. president obama lightened things up a little bit with jay leno on tuesday night, but he did address the economy in a serious moment. here's what he had to say. take a listen. >> people are hurting out there. and they've been hurting out there for a while, and people were having a tough time, even

before the crisis. every day i wake up, saying to myself, look, you can't expect folks to feel satisfied right now. i'm very proud of the work that we've done over the last two, three years, but they're exactly right. we've got more work to do. >> reporter: now, this trip hasn't only been about policy. there's also been a little bit of politics. the president attending six different fund-raisers during this three-day trip out west. he's visited nevada, and of course, colorado, two swing states which could be key to his re-election. again, thomas, we're expecting him in just over an hour to give those remarks. >> nbc's kristen welker, great to see you this morning. i just want to pass along, we'll have much more on this coming up in a moment. will these new actions by the obama administration really help college students with their debt? stay tuned for that. a new poll out this morning shows republicans in a key swing state are catching herman cain fever. ohio republican voters have cain ahead of mitt romney and the poll mirrors the steep drop that

we're seeing nationally for the perry campaign. politico executive editor jim vandehei joins me now to talk about this. this is something we've been seeing nationally, and this "new york times" poll was conducted after the debates, where herman cain, already a front-runner, had some light slip-ups. what's this say about his staying power wm >> he's been there for several weeks, not just nationally, but in a lot of state polls. we have ohio today, but we've seen the same thing in other pivotal early states. you have to say he's in the top tier. he's the biggest threat right now no mitt romney. a lot of these shows rick perry plummeting. herman cain has caught something, he's really caught this moment. people like him on stage, they like his personality, he like the fact he was a ceo and kind of an outsider. underneath that, can he build an infrastructure? can he build a fund-raising team, a policy team, a staff?

can he put together teams in all these early states? we're not seeing a lot of evidence that he's doing those things yet, but he certainly has the time and he has momentum to do it. the big question, does he do it. >> he's got everybody talking about him, because the smoking ad featuring cain's campaign manager, it's really snowballed into this bigger story. not so much about the substance of what the ad actually says, but just the imagery that comes with it there at the end. it's kind of like the, you know, herman cain's crazy like a fox, thinking that this isn't going to get picked up as much as it has, because it can benefit him. it gets him name recognition out there much more than it already has. does this make him look like a maverick? >> i think being a maverick is certainly what his appeal is right now. the problem is, when you're a maverick and say things that are controversial or do things that are controversial, eventually they catch up with you. you can't keep saying, whatever, i'm not aware of this debate over neoconservative or make fun of the name of a foreign country or not have details on where you are or where you're not on

abortion. those things will catch up over time. the scrutiny will be intense. the longer he stays up there, the longer he stays on top, the more of a target he becomes both for his opponents and the media. and he really hasn't been scrutinized hardly at all to date. and that's coming. as long as he stays there as a real, sort of veritable option, as an alternative to mitt romney. and he's there, and i think that's what you're going to see in the next month tor two. >> politico's jim vandehei. thanks. former senator jim mcgovern is recovering this morning in a south dakota hospital. the one-time presidential democratic candidate was admitted yesterday for fatigue. doctors expect him to be released in a couple days. he ran for president against incumbent richard nixon in 1972 and lost in one of the biggest landslides in modern history. and weeks after retiring from "60 minutes," andy rooney is in the hospital after developing complications from having surgery. the 92-year-old remains in stable condition.

famous for his cur munlgenly observati observations. we wish him recovery. and steven taylor will be back on face, despite knocking out a couple of teeth and cutting up his face in a nasty fall in his hotel bathroom. he's got a pair of new denial implants and is good to go for tonight's show. and you thought the two missing teeth would keep him down, so you can just dream on about that one. illegal immigrants fled alabama in the face of one of the toughest anti-immigration laws in the nation, leaving bisz and farms in a lurch. well, thegrio.com went to the state to find out if african-americans were filling this void. their special report, coming up. and how the man who wants to be president became a corporate titan of the 1980s and '90s. a look at mitt romney's revolution from wall street to today, and can we expect him to bring that same winner-take-all

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from the campaign trail, mitt romney is seen as a consistent, yet flawed republican presidential front-runner. and a new article details how the harvard business student became the candidate that we know today. from young consultant to widely successful ceo, and then republican governor, who gave romney care to the blue state, romney's decisions give us insight into his politics and persona. benjamin wallace wells took a closer look at romney's rise, "mitt romney and the 1% economy" is the cover story in the latest issue of "new york" magazine. ben, good to have you on with us this morning. i want to get into excerpts from your piece, but i want to start with asking your overall impression of mitt romney after taking such an in-depth look at his life. what is it? >> the first thing to understand about romney is he was an

extraordinarily successful businessman. this wasn't a george w. bush situation where he sort of happened into wealth. this is a man who really did figure out a science for how to improve business. the sec thing to understand, though, is that he played a kind of pivotal role in shifting -- in helping to shift the american economy from something that was more stable and more equal into something that was not. >> ben, let's get into quotes from your piece. this one you say in 1999, american ceos looked very different from the predecessors he met in the '70s, the genial paternalists spending their careers at a single company. they were pure meritocrats, well educated, well compensated move frequently between jobs and industries, trained to look ruthlessly for efficiency everywhere. they look a great deal more, in other words, like mitt romney. >> the you look at every one of

his public endeavors since he left the public sector, he brought his staffers from bain capital and from bain and company to staff his operations. so in his campaigns, in the governors office, at the salt lake olympics, he's brought with him a team of people that have exactly that kind of eye for efficiency and that kind of very pragmatic sensibility. >> and this other quote, you talk about health care reform, and that is something that a lot of people like to pin on mitt romney and take him to task for this. in your article, you say, "romney did not begin with a philosophical quest to improve american health care. he began with the idea of himself as a problem solver and asked those around him for a problem that he might usefully solve. on even basic philosophical questions like abortion, romney would consider instead various hypothetical cases, like late-term abortion, and build from them a politics. the line that romney is a flip-flopper may vastly understate the depth of the

condition." so would mitt romney be a quick the decision maker, or one that is more calculated? >> to me, this is sort of the most extraordinary thing that kept coming up throughout the piece. even on basic philosophical positions like abortion, where you would think somebody who was moving into public office would be able to interrogate their own baili beliefs and say, here's what i believe, and here's where i come out, romney didn't to that. romney's tactic was always this consultant training. he would look at hypothetical cases. what do the i think about a 14-year-old who gets pregnant? is it okay for her to get an abortion without asking her parents' permission? and he would try to elaborate from there. there is something is that so deeply engrained an the sensibility, the sort of reaction to particular circumstances, this focus on the micro of both business and politics as opposed to the macro. romney is sort of the anti-visionary. >> it's a great read, in-depth read for sure.

"new york" magazine's benjamin wallace-wells. ben, thanks so much, i appreciate it. you can go to nymag.com for more on that article. from romney to perry, rick perry out with a new tv ad promising to create 2.5 million jobs all in the hopes of turning around his sinking poll numbers. we'll ask a member of his team if perry's new message is going to get through. and michael jackson's nurse breaking down on the stand. what's in store for today when the defense prepares to call character witnesses backing dr. conrad murray? man: my electric bill was breaking the bank.

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welcome back, everybody. their client's been portrayed as everything from inept and reckless to a shameless fame hound. now defense lawyers for michael jackson's former doctor are going to try to highlight his positive traits. but first, the five character witnesses are expected to testify on conrad murray's behalf today.

new emotional testimony about jackson's personal addictions emerged in court on tuesday as a nurse described the pop star begging her for the powerful narcotic propofol to help him sleep. >> he looked at me and he said, i have a lot of difficulty sleeping. i've tried everything, and what i need is something that's going to help me fall asleep right away. and then he went more into, the only thing that will do that is dipriv diprivan. >> but the concert promoter described him as a confidant and competitive. >> michael was very clear that he was ready, as he said, you build the house and i'll put on the door and paint it. >> joining me once again, legal analyst and former prosecutor and criminal defense attorney, ric ricky kliegman. what's your reaction to this recent testimony, how it really contrasts with what we've heard

so far? >> i think the defense is trying, however they are allowed to do it, to show that michael jackson was an addict. to show that michael jackson was determined to get diprivan, which is another word for propofol, and he was going to get it if not from the nurse practitioner, if not from his other doctor, dr. metzger, he was going to ask and ask, and demand and demand until he found some sucker to give it to him, which is conrad murray. that's the defense of the case. >> and right now they're having to do damage control about the type of man dr. conrad murray is. so bringing character witnesses in, is that going to make a difference in the jury's minds right now? >> no. i think they need to do this from the defense point of view, that certainly his character, dr. murray's character, was really -- well, it appeared that it was he was someone who thought about everyone else except his patient, michael jackson. so you have character witnesses who are going to say he was a great doctor, he had a

reputation in the community as an excellent doctor, but then they get cross-examined. and walgren is good. he is a prosecutor, knows how to give them a hypothetical, which can say, well, if you knew the following and put in every bad fact of the case, the next question is, would it change your mind? that's what the rules of evidence say about character witnesses. well, it's not going to change their minds, but it certainly is going to be out there. >> what is the defense testimony, if anything, that you think will provide the jury will reasonable doubt in the fact that conrad murray's not culpable in this death? >> the only possibility of what they have left, since so much has been gutted from their case by the court's rulings, is the testimony of the expert. and that's dr. white. he will be the logical last witness thursday and friday for the defense. and dr. white is going to have to show that although there were deviations, gross deviations, from the acceptable standard of care, that it did not cause the

death of michael jackson. tough row to hoe. lawyers are back in court claiming partisan politics got in the way. and new details for you in the baby lisa case. why is a trained specialist interviewing her half brothers and taking their dna? full details after this. hey, everyone's eating tacos outside bill's office. [ chuckles ] you think that is some information i would have liked to know? i like tacos. you invited eric? i thought eric gave you the creeps. [ phone buzzes ] oh. [ chuckles ] yeah. hey. [ male announcer ] don't be left behind. get it faster with 4g. at&t. ♪ no, i wouldn't use that single miles credit card. nice ring.

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as president obama plans to announce new measures to announce the burden of student loan debt, new figures are painting a very bleak picture of college costs for students and their parents. nationally, the average cost of a full credit load is now over 8,000 bucks. that's at an all-time high. and add on to that room and board, that's more than $17,000 a year. college students have swelled the ranks of the occupy wall street protests, and here's one big reason why. for the first time ever, outstanding student loans are

expected to top -- listen to this -- $1 trillion. i'm joined now by rick newman, the chief business correspondent for "u.s. news & world report." rick, nice to have you on today. as we hear about this, it sends shivers down your spine, thinking about what college kids are facing, thinking about what parents are facing, that they have to put their kids through, and for people who are trying to save for their kids right now. but when we factor in the rising costs of college, with the shaky economy, you also see the rise in student loan default. take a look at this. the department of education says the average rate was last year at 8.8%. that's up from 7% in 2008. does this just tell you the upward trend is going in a direction that's continuing to increase without any help? >> i think there's a new and worsening pinch on recent grads. and one of the things that's been happening here is a lot of people who have been looking at the terrible job market have said, well, this is not a good time to look for a job. what do they do? they go to school, maybe they're going to graduate school or deciding to go to college instead of joining the

workforce. that made sense for most of the past 50 years, but this is one of those things where the equation is changing a little bit. we've always had in mind, it's a smart way to -- a debt you take on for education is a smart debt, because you're going to be able to earn more in the future and so on. but we've got a lot of people now who are graduating from colleges with a ton of debt and no jobs are available. so they're looking around saying, i thought this was the right thing to do, and suddenly it's not looking like such a smart move. i think that's fueling a lot of frustration. >> the logic was, you get this higher education, get the higher-paying job, and over time, you can pay down that debt. >> that's still good logic, by the way. the data is extremely clear, the more education a person tends to have, the more money they get paid. but this is a tough time. not a great time to be entering the job market. this is going to be a tough job market for several years. that's where this pinch is coming from, i think. >> unfortunately, though, we're seeing a huge rise in student loan defaults, as we take a look at this, the president announcing these new initiatives meant to counteract it, take the

burden of 1.2 million borrowers. how effect dive, rick, do you think these measures are going to be in terms of helping students, families, consolidate that debt? >> i think this is a small step, and i think we need to start getting used to the idea that there are not going to be any big solutions coming out of washington, where there's a big new program that sort of solves a huge problem. at best, we're likely to see some small efforts, some small programs that might relieve the pressure a little bit. so i think it will help some people a little bit. it's better than nothing, i suppose, if you're somebody who has a lot of student loan debt. people need to pay attention to these things, know what opportunities are available for them to get their debts down a little bit, or lower their payments a little bit. >> and you've written about this from the perspective of the occupy wall street protests, and you hear from the protesters on the street, the debt load i'm carrying is too much, and in return, my investment isn't worth the amount that i'm paying. however, they're so critical of success. is that a catch-22? >> there's a very mixed message

coming from the protesters, but i kind of break this down into two different groups. there are people who are on the streets and in the parks in a lot of different cities. this is also gaining a pretty interesting online component. and i think these are people who are not necessarily out in the streets, maybe because they're working or they're going to school and they don't have time to do that. but you're seeing websites such as "we are the 99%," where people are posting pictures of themselves and briefly summarizing their problem. about two-thirds of the people, it seems, are complaining about too much debt, it's typically medical debt or student loan debt. and you start to get a feeling like, this is a recurring problem. and when you look at the numbers, $1 trillion almost in student loan debt, the only kind of debt that's been going up. people have been paying off other kinds of debt, credit card and stuff like that. that gives you a clearer sense of the pressure people are under. >> it's a staggering number, u. "u.s. news & world report" chief business correspondent, rick newman. thanks. and the live coverage of the

president's remarks, that's going to be coming up in the next hour right here on msnbc. here's a look, though, at what is topping the news now for you. a new twist in the case of missing baby lisa in missouri. investigators say a child specialist will interview the two half-brothers of lisa irwin on friday. each boy is suspected to submit to dna testing and no police will be present. despite multiple searches and interviews with the child's parents, kansas city police say there are no new leads in this case. more rescues and deaths now reported after that devastating earthquake in turkey on sunday. rescuers pulled a 27-year-old english teacher out of the wreckage alive today, along with four other survivors, including a teenage boy. more than 460 people have died as part of that quake, and searchers say with each hour, hopes of finding other survivors diminishes. today's rescues come just a day after a 2-week-old girl was pulled from that rubble successfully. hurricane warnings in effect now for a popular resort destination along mexico.

that's because rina became a major category 3 hurricane today. the storm is picking up steam in the caribbean and is projected to threaten florida by this weekend, when it could be downgraded at that point to a tropical storm. a big day in court today for former senator john edwards. it may be his best chance to fight the criminal charges that he's up against. the government says that edwards took illegal campaign contributions that were used to hide his mistress while he was campaigning for president. edwards is trying to get his case thrown out before he goes to trial, claiming it was politically motivated by a former prosecutor now running for congress as a republican. and too much alcohol. that's what the pathologist says happened to singer amy winehouse before she died. final test results just released this morning shows that she was about five times over the legal drunk driving limit. winehouse, who grappled with drug and alcohol problems for years, was found dead in her london home this past july at the age of 27 years old.

alabama's $5.5 billion agriculture industry is intended, or the unintended casualty, of the state's new immigration law, depending on how you look at it. the law allows police to detain people indefinitely if they are suspected of being here illegally, which has forced droves of latinos to flee the state. farmers desperate to replenish their workforce are hiring whites and african-americans to pick up that slack, but many of them don't have the skills or the experience for the low-paying job, as thegrio.com recently found out. take a look. >> just not used to the work necessary on a farm. i doubt -- well, i don't know of but two people out of the eight that we took on the job today that have ever even been on a farm before. >> reporter: local leaders, though supportive of spencer's efforts, say larger-scale initiatives from the state have yet to take hold. >> the word of mouth has been around that the hours are long, the pay is low, the work is

hard. >> and that cuts across racial lines? >> i think it cuts across racial lines, because at the end of the day, a person just wants to do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. and they don't feel like that's the case with these particular jobs. >> i'm joined now by todd johnston, digital journalist for thegrio.com, who reported on this special report. todd, nice to see you. many of these workers have little or no experience. that's what you learned from this report. so how's it affecting the productivity? also, how is it affecting the trust issues that go along with this? >> i think, thomas, the most fascinating part about it is just the inexperience of the city workers coming to these rural farms to try their hand in any work, because you have a good number of unemployed folks in alabama, i think it's around 10% unemployment, but the familiarity is the key here. so city workers being, coming 50 miles, say, north of the capital to go on a farm and to pick tomatoes or to clean up the harvest, are learning that the hours are long, as the leader in

that piece just said, hours are long, the pay is low, and the work is very hard. and i don't think that necessarily has translated from, you know, the state's office down to the farmers who actually need the labor. >> and how is that playing out? especially with the retention rate, if that is the word on the street, so to speak, of how these jobs are. it's low-paying, long hours, hard work. >> well, some we feature in the piece, this gentleman named jerry spencer started driving people, just using his own business dollar, driving people from the city to these rural areas, and what he learned is that out of about 100 people he took from the city to the farms, about 10%, or about ten people would stay consistently. and not leave halfway throughout the day or not return or would return a day after the work. because it's not really a minimum wage type of setup in farm labor. you know, workers are paid based on the type of work they're doing, how long they work, how many other people they have to share the wages with. so it's very difficult to put a

dollar amount on how much you'll earn for, say, picking tomatoes. it could vary from $200 to $300 a day, if you are skilled. is that's the key. >> todd johnson, digital journalist for thegrio.com. great report, todd. thanks so much. for more on this story, visit thegrio.com and watch the full piece there yourself. herman cain topping most polls. one of them even showing the pizza magnate beating rick perry in his home state of texas. what does perry think about all that? we'll talk to a member of his campaign. so we know why cain is smiling, but what's got stephen colbert grinning like that too? we'll explain that side-by-side, after this. my employees are like family. and, i want people that work for me to feel that they're sharing in my success. we purchase as much as we can on the american express open gold card. so we can accumulate as many points as possible. i pass on these points to my employees to go on trips with their families. when my employees are happy, my customers are happy. vo: earn points for the things you're already buying.

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the best part of cain's ad might not even be the unexpected smoking. no, the best part is the eight seconds it takes for herman cain to smile. here's a little taste.

>> a 20-second slo-mo smile in realtime, that's really not easy to do. so congrats to colbert for that. stephen colbert stretching his smile like herman cain. cain, the candidate, though, continues spreading his message in states we won't see on the early calendar, including texas. and mc hammer still proving he's too legit to quit in a new ad for the san francisco mayor. take a look. ♪

♪ thank you for blessing me and the rest of the city ♪ ♪ what up, san francisco?! >> right now ed lee is the interim mayor of san francisco. and you might want to call him the baby whisperer, just after landing in san francisco, look at this, president obama spotted a crying baby girl being held by her mom. but after just a few minutes with the commander in chief, she calmed down, even flashed a smile, and this isn't the first time you may recall the president has showed his magic with the babies. he also calmed a baby down in june at the white house. well, rick perry is out with his new own campaign ad, one his team hopes will shift the focus back to jobs and help him boost his standing in the polls. take a look. >> as president, i'll create at least 2.5 million new jobs. and i know something about them. in texas, we created over 1 million new jobs while the rest of the nation lost over 2 million. i'll start by opening american oil and gas fields, i'll

eliminate president obama's regulations that hurt other sources of domestic energy, like coal and natural gas. that will create jobs and reduce our reliance on oil from countries that hate america. i'm rick perry and i approve this message. >> ray sullivan is the communications director for governor perry's presidential campaign and joins us now. mr. sullivan, it's nice to see you this morning. >> good morning, thomas. >> so even as governor perry unveils his economic plans and puts out that sharp message, he makes some gaffes, comments about the birther issue, president obama's citizenship, basically. even conservatives questioning whether governor perry is his own worst enemy. does he need to get back on message, or do you think he's never even gotten off message? >> i think the governor certainly is on message. i think yesterday the cut, balance, and grow economic plan. cutting tax rate s down to a flat, fair 20%. building on that energy job plan put out about ten days ago, that we believe will create about 1.2

million good, american jobs and eliminate our reliance on hostile energy. so when it comes to job creation, no one better in the country. 40% of the jobs since june of '09 created right here in texas. the governor putting forward plans to take that job creation, take that fiscal conservatism to the rest of the country. >> well, governor perry has admitted, though that the debates have cost him a bit. we're seeing in the national polls where he's falling. herman cain leading now, seriously competing. not seriously competing, though, in the primary states. so how is rick perry concerned about this, especially when it comes to conservative voters, as you have tried to make everybody aware that rick perry is a true conservative, the true conservative. >> thomas, it is a combination of putting forward these fiscally sound job creation plans, as we did yesterday with the 20% flat tax, with serious reforms to our budget and spending can outs to get america back on track.

but also building on the fact that we have a grassroots operation in iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, florida, the early primary states. we have the campaign resources. and again, the job record, the job message, and that conservative message, we believe, is going to appeal to conservative republican voters in iowa, new hampshire, and the rest of the country. and build on what we have, what we've done on job creation, and the campaign strength that we've got in the early primary states. >> as you talk about the flat tax, mr. sullivan, some have said that the governor's plan borrows from the 9-9-9 plan. >> the biggest thing, we do not have a new source of revenue for the federal government. mr. cain's plan has a brand-new national sales tax, as others have commented, historically, when the federal government gets their hooks into a new revenue source, they raise it. we're looking, in his plan, at

17, 18% sales tax on homes and everyday purchases. perry's plan simplifies that tax code, actually, gets rid of, essentially, the existing tax code, brings everyone down to a flat, fair 20%, eliminates corporate loopholes and exemptions that have jumped up and confused the tax code, and cuts spending too. we believe that combination of simplicity, to be able to send your tax returns in on a postcard and the spending cuts will really jump-start this economy, jump-start job creation, and getting america working again, as we've done in texas and as we plan to do when the governor of texas takes the oath of office in january 2013. >> mr. sullivan, thanks for your time this morning, appreciate it. some startling new numbers out about what growing up in a same-sex household can do to kids. we're back with msnbc, just after this. just one phillips' colon health probiotic cap a day

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i came on this show because i wanted to show america a different kind of man. and i know that if there was somebody like me on tv when i was growing up, my whole life would have been different. >> chaz bono dancing his last dance on the reality competition show, acknowledging some of the challenges he faced growing up. he says he dedicated his run on "dancing with the stars" to all the teens and kids out there across this country who might be struggling like he did. of course, families all across this nation are struggling in the recession. but a new report by the family equality council is shedding light on a previously unrecognized demographic. 2 million kids now being raised by same-sex couples are more likely to grow up poor or live in abject poverty, and it's all tied up in the federal government's failure to accept the lgbt definition of family. jennifer, it's nice to see you this morning. i think when it comes to

poverty, we want to be clear that we're showing the discrepancy when it comes to how a family unit is defined. when you compare, there is a really big vast difference. the poverty rate is more than double that for same-sex couples than it is for heterosexual couples. explain why. >> well, you know, the reason why is because the way that we define family in this country has not really kept pace with the changing nature of who our families are. and so the federal government uses a definition that is oftentimes tied to the legal relationship between a parent and a child. and in this country, that's really hard for same-sex couples to be able to get. in 31 states, it's a real challenge for both parents to have a legal relationship with their children. not to mention the fact that there are all these increased tax burdens, extra health care costs that families face because of how we define families in this country. >> jennifer, that's what i want to get into, the tax

discrepancies. you can see the big ones when we look at what heterosexual couples who file jointly stand to get, at least a $50 refund. lbgt couples end up owing more than $2,000 filing separately. if this wrapped up in the federal deaf sigz of what family is, isn't it discriminatory? >> it really. it's really an outmoded, outdated, and discriminatory way of thinking about the family way. it stems from the federal government's refusal to recognize legal marriages in the six states and of columbia. it results in an economic instability for the kids, for the 2 million children. >> i want to show everybody that we have a family, just to put a face on this, that the ramifications goes beyond the numbers. this couple recently talked to the a.p. about the concerns they

have because they don't want their daughter to face discrimination. yet she runs the risk, jennifer, of losing legal protections that are afforded mom and dad households. explain to all of us what those are. >> well, you know, most heterosexual couples when they have a child or adopt a child, they as parents have a legal relationship with their kids. and what they worry about is providing every opportunity to their children. but for the vast majority of same-sex couples, securing those legal relationships with your children is much more challenging because of state laws, because of discriminatory laws. so the result can be that your child could be seen as a legal stranger in the eyes of the law to the parent who has been taking care of them, raising them, loving them, caring for them. so it's a real challenge for same-sex couples. >> we appreciate the work that you're doing. jennifer chrisler, nice to see you. thanks.

>> thank you, thomas. thank you for having us. that's going to do it ait fe today. tomorrow, we'll speak with rosie o'donnell about her tv comeback and the fight against bullying. we look forward to that. but for now, stick around. richard is here to pick things up for the next hour. >> it's going to be a good one tomorrow. coming up in the next hour, help for students drowning in debt. president obama unveils his plan to ease the burden live during the next hour. and an average joe wants to dive into politics. why joe the plumber wants to be congressman joe. he'll join me in stoudio. >> also, fan favorite rurp rupert. he won over fan viewers, but can he win over voters? that's next. engineers, machinis. ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses...

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good wednesday. it is official again. the rich are getting richer. new government figures show the income gap in this country is growing at