thought or final remark here would be if that was set to music. you think about that, because with the alliteration, the hakani, the hoot nanny, think about it. >> someone actually said to me yesterday that you and i should do a rap. >> you know, i think that's a terrible idea. >> that's not a good dylan. >> that's not a great idea. >> no, thank you. >> but -- but what's a good idea is your show, and is it starts now. >> i'm going to agree with that, and yes, it does. >> the big story today. policing the protests in america. good wednesday afternoon to you. i am dwightan. as we all know by now, money and politics is the overarching reason for the economic injustice that inspired a global movement.

>> this may look like pictures from london this summer but that's the streets of america, oakland, california, last night, as the occupation turned violent with police firing tear gas into a crowd of protesters, and as you can see the result was chaos. >> they said, okay. well, we're going to shoot it if you guys don't move. like we have a few minutes and even before the minute is passed they started shooting off. >> the crowds vowing to return in just a few hours for a second night of protests after having been confronted as they were last night. a similar scene, by the way, playing out in atlanta, georgia last night as police there clashed with protesters who were camped out at woodruff park. more than four dozen arrested in atlanta, georgia. and while president obama was fund-raising in denver, protesters were raising their voices as they have been doing for the past month in denver.

a major snow storm today, along with 20-degree temperatures which can throw off any sort of occupation temporarily quieting the movement. they say they are planning a much larger event for this saturday. we begin today with the mega panel. imogen lloyd weber and jonathan capehart and john cox, we've not seen images like that in this country for a long time. put in your context your perspective in watching not athens, not the middle east but america in that context. >> well, i was very shocked because actually we didn't use tear gas this sumner london, although there were obviously demands. tear gas is not used much on mainland britain at all because of the pr carpet it gives to protesters and the police here to be very careful. a "new york times"/cbs, 40% of the americans are the pro wall street occupied movement and 20% disagree and have you to be worry about galvanizing that

sympathy towards that movement by using something as extreme as tear gas. >> at the same time, rob, it's become apparent that each of these protests in each city is very different from each other's city because it takes on the culture and the dynamic and the -- whatever the attitude, not just of the protesters, but each police force i really think has a different culture depending on who the chief of police is and what the mechanism of that engagement is. what do you see as the greatest sort of social and political risk of the inconsistency, if you will, of both the occupation itself, and to both of you really, and also the inconsistency of its policeing? >> imogen is right. it's a huge pr card. even though if you look on youtube, you'll see protesters taunting the police. >> and provoking. >> and, you know, this is -- this is what protesters are hoping. i do think while there's a different composition of all the groups. there's one thing that binds them, a lack of sort of hope and there's something that is pulling all of them together that is different than say the last time we saw this in the

late '60s is where people were protesting the vietnam war. do you have certain things here, you know, where we do have an unemployment problem far worse than it was in the late '60s and early '70s. we have a debt problem that's not going to go away just by protesting. i actually think that this is the beginning -- i've been calling -- not calling for but predicting quite a bit of social unrest. it's what happens when you have a huge financial crisis like this. >> go ahead, jonathan. here's the thing about having different occupy movements in different cities. it makes it difficult for democrats, because, remember, before it was how can the democrats, how can the president use this to gin up the base in time for 2012? we're seeing this why this is such a dicy thing and the presidents to do. look at elizabeth warren in her senate race in massachusetts. one week there's a quote about how she says i'm the inspiration for the occupy wall street movement and then this happens and, you know, sort of crickets on that. >> the dynamic as somebody who

myself has been and continues to be a very public, very strong advocate of the occupy movement. i believe that the values that are expressed in the formulation of the communications and the principles that are articulated by the protesters that i have met, i completely agree with, that there's a breach of fairness in the policy making in this country and that breach must be confronted. at the same time it is obvious that while -- whether it's me or anybody else who might stand in solidarity with the principles of the occupation, the behavior of any group of protesters is beyond the leadership and/or manageability of anybody, whether it's a media figure, whether it's a political leader or anybody else, because you're really dealing with behavioral economics. you're dealing with people who believe they are in a system that is screwing them in some way, and they are all there for different reasons which is not always rational. >> not always rational, but when

you have protesters egging on law enforcement and egging on the police and it leads to rather violent consequences, i think it's incumbent upon all those who have a single goal, a single vision for what the occupy movement should be. >> in terms of its solidarity. >> right, to condemn what's happening, because what this sort of thing ends up doing, it feeds into the negative impression of the occupy movement out there from the very beginning from the right, from the far right. >> and the perception of the police. i go down to zuccotti park, look, the police, as far as i can tell, are in occupation, standing here all night as sure as everybody else and the police pensions getting chewed up in the swaps market. >> they are getting overtime. >> it seems that the key is to try to figure out how it is to capture the best aspects of any of this conversation without getting dragged into all the rest of the obvious annoyances. >> it is ideologically vague, this movement, and when

something happens or the police use tear gas or so forth, suddenly the media will hone in on that because it's an easy way to talk about the story. it's a fundamental problem and the police really do have a very tricky situation here and perhaps need to take a step back. >> i don't feel like it's ideologically vague. i feel like it's ideologically explicit. there's no demands. it's explicit in saying we are aware that this is,system sun fair and we'll continue to show up in this location until somebody acknowledges that unfairness and resolves it and people say you tell me. >> to jonathan's point. there's no leadership. no one who can come out and condemn the bad actors and bad eggs who might go to the policemen or whatever. nobody who is going to stand up and say, look, this is -- we don't -- this is not what we are all about. this is what we're about. it's sort of still missing that. going back to your point about the composition. it's still very organic and it's growing. >> and every city is different. and then the question is will the principles carry or will the

attraction of short-term sort of channeling anger into conflict which is the obvious risk. >> i think that's -- that is the key, that's the key point and that's the key question, but i think from the very beginning of this conversation you touched on something that i don't think many people thought of, and that is that the occupation movements are different in different cities. i can't remember how you describe each place. >> philadelphia is 80% homeless people. >> new york is a bunch of really -- new york i would say is probably 40% real smarty pants, you know, banking system, 20% anarchists and 30% i don't know what. >> and boston is more smarty points. >> harvard, m.i.t., bu, bc, open source. >> rastafarians. >> right, some are, some night. >> but the point is each one has a totally different composition. >> but they are all -- >> and d.c. is like a common cause meeting. >> but they are all bound by a common dissatisfaction and anger

towards system and how it's screwing. >> and breach of fairness. >> there's a sense that what's going on isn't fair. >> what rob said at beginning of the these problems are not going to go away, deficit reduction, money in politics. they are not going anyway so fundamentally i don't see how this movement is going to go anywhere. it will just get bigger. >> the thing that occurs to me listening to a couple of folks on the committee for economic development yesterday, that basically they wrote the marshall plan, the largest ngo in the world. david cote, honeywell, these types of people. there's a conversation to be had about debt restructuring, on health improvement, education, all these things and it's resolving the debt that is really the barrier to doing that, and i think whether it's media pressure, whether it's protest pressure, whether it's corporate -- there are ceos saying, listen, we have to solve

this because we are teed up for explosive growth and we're going nowhere in a pile of debt and i think the conversation about debt reduction, and we saw this in europe, where the proposition coming out of greece was what if we give you 40 cents on the dollar to the german banks? that's a different conversation than taxes and austerity. i'm not saying who knows what's going to happen, but it does feel, rob, like we're moving beyond taxes and austerity and into debt restructuring on the periphery of the conversation. >> to the extent that you can. saw the administration today release more details on what it want to do about student loans and trying to help people who are way under water on their homes. i mean, these are all trying to attack same problem. we have too much debt. we don't have the capacity to pay it off. there is a way to get the capacity which is growth. if we grow, part of that can mean inflation, then we can get out of this mess, but if you have a congress that's completely saying that is saying no to any ideas, we are in a state of -- >> you can't catalyze growth. >> nothing is going to happen and we'll have more of the civil unrest. >> and that's why you have the

president trying to do, whether it's student loans or -- or mortgages, trying to do something, anything that's within his power as president to -- to basically nibble around the edges because congress, washington. >> can't do it with legislation. >> and the probablem is the nibbling is frustrating to people. look at the president, at least he's trying to work, at least he's trying to nibble. more than you can say for a lot of people. >> people want big chunks and want the big chunks taken out now and we're getting nibbles over months. >> all right. the panel stays. we'll take a break for a second. up next year. a live but not well, is america prepared to deal with a record number of our own soldiers, wounded warriors, returning from the battlefield to america? plus, the patriot act. sounds rather patriotic, but is it actually attacking the very values america and its patriotism was built on? and then living the dream.

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i feel that me crying about it wouldn't help the situation at all, and i know it won't. you can't -- crying ain't going to grow anything back. >> that, tyler southern, a 20-year-old american marine, who lost both of his legs and his right arm when he stepped on an

ied in afghanistan, and tyler is just one of a growing number of veterans, more than 16,000 to date, coming back home alive but with severe battle wounds. although modern medicine means more of our young heroes do survive in the field, it also means that their lives will never be the same. it forces all of us as a nation to ask the question. are we prepared to take care of our injured soldiers as they come home? and that is just one of the many questions that our specialists tackle in a ten-part "huffington post" series called "beyond the battlefield." david wood is their military correspondent. david, what is your assessment of america's capacity socially, economically and culturally to -- to welcome home these soldiers in a way that makes them feel that they have the support they need?

>> dylan, i think it's an open question. there's two parts to this really. on battlefield and in the military medical system, there have been enormous advances over the last ten years that have really enabled the military to save wounded soldiers and marines who ten years ago probably would have died of their wounds. now they can be saved. they are brought back to this country. the rehab system is phenomenally good. up until the point when they pass out of the system, then the care is superb. the problem comes when they are out in our communities. many of them looking for jobs. all of them struggling to some extent with pretty disabling wounds. >> go ahead, imogen. >> dave, i mean, these are extraordinary images and massive sympathy. how can we help? what can we do to help these brave young men and women? >> well, one of the things

that's happened over the last ten years is as gaps have opened up in what the pentagon and the v.a. have been able to do for veterans, an enormous number of non-profit voluntary organizations have sprung up to help these guys, and there's all kinds of ways that we can volunteer to get involved. two of the big ones, of course, are operation home front and the wounded warrior project. both they and hundreds -- literally hundreds of other organizations, which we list on our "huffington post" website are anxious for all of us to get involved, either by donating money or more importantly by donating time. a lot of these veterans return home it their communities where it's very difficult for the v.a. and other government institutions to reach them, and so it's so important that there be local support, and that's how

ordinary americans can get back in touch with their veterans. >> yeah. go ahead, jonathan. >> david, when i hear about -- read and hear stories of, you know, service members coming back home from iraq and afghanistan after being severely wounded. i always wonder, okay, they are getting great medical care but what about when they get home in terms of jobs, in terms of employment. a lot of these folks coming back, they are kids. they are still in their 20s, maybe even early 30s and have a whole lot of living to do. is there anything to ensure that when they come home that there is something for them to do that allows them to take care of their families and, you know, uphold their self-worth and dignity. >> well, it's tough. they get military pensions, of course, and get disability payments from the veterans administration, but these are high achieving kids, high

adrenaline, high adventure, and all of a sudden they are living a life that will stretch on for the next 30, 40, 50 years as a disabled or disfigured person. imagine going into the workplace looking for a job if your face has been horribly scarred by a fire that follows an ied blast. hajj if you're going out to look for work and like tyler southern you've got two prosthetic legs and a prosthetic arm. in many cases these young men and women are so motivated and so optimistic and so full of energy and so determined to make something of their lives that they do well, like you can see tyler here working out in a gym, but it's a hard pull for all of them, and that's why they really need our support and understanding. >> david. quick question.

how -- about the mental or psychological injuries. we're looking at disfigured young men here and, of course, that's -- that's terrible, but i'm just wondering, you know, there's a sort of other element to this as people are coming back, you know, having seen and dealt with things that are beyond our ability to comprehend. >> well, one of the most difficult things that all combat veterans struggle with is the after effects of stress, whether it's full-blown post-traumatic stress syndrome or traumatic brain injury which comes from having your head knocked around. they all struggle with this. i think it's fair to say that the severely wounded struggle in addition with depression and anxiety, and these are really unseen wounds, that again, it's so important that they receive not only the good medical and psychiatric care from the government, but the community, that they be reintegrated into

the communities. one of the things that i learned doing the reporting on this series, and i spent seven months doing the reporting. i started out with a question of how should we relate to these people. do they want us to -- to stare at them or to ignore them, and overwhelmingly i found they want us to ask what happened to you? do you mind if i ask what happened, because these are the visible scars, the visible wounds of their sacrifice. they are proud of their sacrifice. they are proud of their wounds. they want to be asked, and it's -- it's -- you know, it's so painful to see somebody like tyler southern out in a shopping mall and some little child goes, look, mommy, he has no legs, and the parent will pull the child away saying oh, don't do that and pull them away and tyler is no, like ask me, you know. >> so why don't you tell us, david, what happened to tyler's

leg and arms. >> tyler as a marine in afghanistan stepped on a -- a roadside bomb, an ied. the blast erupted underneath him and sheered off both of his legs and his right arm, and it mangled his left arm, and -- and when the navy corpsmen raced around the side of the building to find him, he was lying or what was left of him was lying in a smoking crater, and he was dying. he was saved by this navy corpsman james stoddard who was 20 years old, and this was his first time in combat. it just goes to show the incredible competence and professionalism of the folks we have in the military medical system who are out there saving livings. >> how does it strike you that according to tony schaeffer who joins us fairly regularly, who is, again, widely credentialed as a lieutenant colonel in the

u.s. military, that when they pull american soldiers today -- when they poll american soldiers returning today, two-thirds of the soldiers when they are asked, are you going back to afghanistan, two-thirds say the only reason i'm going back to afghanistan is i'm concerned about the well-being of my brothers and sisters who are under threat right now in that country, and what does that tell us that our military is being deployed because of their concern for their brothers and sisters in combat and really not for a reason beyond that. >> i think we should be happy about that. look, we have a professional army. we've been at war for ten years. they have done extraordinarily well, and -- and i -- i hope that we can find a way to welcome them home when they come home. >> yeah. >> listen, i think everybody at this table and a lot of folks in this country could not more wholeheartedly agree with you. i want to put the names of those

organizations back up here one more time before we take a break. david, we look forward to benefitting from your reporting on "the huffington post," a ten-part series, "beyond the battlefield." david wood, thank you so much. we'll put those web addresses up on all of the digital platforms as well. up next, both sides of the aisle standing side by side, in fact, to do something that you and i want to do. get money out of politics. we'll find out how they want to do it after this. would be easy without gravity.

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well, we're back with something you just don't see that much in this country or the country's political leadership these days,or at least not in a way that is aligned with our country's issues. today a traditional republican and democrat are standing side by side with a common goal for aligned interests in our country based on the ending of the breach of fairness that's

affected so much of our country. who knew this was possible. the uniting front is something we've been calling for here on "the d.r. show," getting special interest money out of our political system so the elected leaders are able to focus on the debate americans ensure, not ensuring that they are involved in fund-raising or not alienating critical donors threatened by a policy. congressman john larson, a democrat, walter jones, a republican, have teamed up to reintroduce the fair elections now act, and it's a pleasure to have both of you here. congressman larson. if i understand this correctly, this is not explicitly a law that eliminates fund-raising but one that seeks to control it and push it towards smaller donors. can you educate us a little bit? >> yes, it is, dylan. certainly not as expansive as your efforts with regards to a constitutional amendment, a noble goal. of course what we had to be very concerned about is buckley versus valero and this is aimed,

as you said, of taking money out of the process and getting campaign donations of under $100, and doing this across a -- with a grass roots effort. >> yeah, yeah. we're pleased that walter jones has been a part of this and, of course, to have the public citizen, common cause, the brennan justice center and so many others that have been behind this, more than heartened by it. more than 165 sponsors just last year, and that's why we're proud to introduce it. >> and congressman jones, why the decision to -- to put yourself at risk and to put your own leadership at stake on this particular issue and what do you think you can do to lead others from your political party to join you? >> dylan, i'm like john, i want to return us a want to return the power back to the people and right now fund-raising in washington, d.c. is like a sodom

and gomorrah, the special interests have too much influence up here. i want to thank you for your effort and i want to thank my dear friend john larson to stand with him and see this become a reality. >> fantastic. as you guys know, we here at "the dylan ratigan show" have reached out to americans, almost 230,000 people have signed a petition demanding a debate on this issue. i suspect we can push well north of 1 million by christmas and hopefully 10 million, 12 million by the election next year. we're starting to accumulate drafts of a constitutional amendment, your piece of legislation is the lawrence lessing approach, managing the flow of capitals with the $100 donors, the second draft on there, and we're going to

continue to add drafts for anybody who seems to have a point of view on this, but i'm interested as to why you guys decided that keeping money in but trying to manage it is something that can be managed and how do you reconcile the fears of somebody like myself who says that's admirable but you can't control the snake, the ability to infect -- the snake has proven itself from adam and eve to be more powerful than any man and i'm curious how the both of you reconcile that. >> well, you can't. we've always felt that you can't unilaterally disarm in a nuclear arms race, and -- and this is a step that is a desired step, and it's one actually, dylan, that's been thought through by a number of the grass roots efforts. i mean, let's give, you know, common cause and the public citizen. >> for sure. >> justice brennan said, there have been people who gave this a lot of thought and struggle with buckley and valero and how we deal with the constitutional issue of speech.

this provided an opportunity for a member to either have things currently as they are with the status quo or go to a version that's still, us a point out, requires the ability to raise money but understanding that in this day and age, with all the money that's needed to go on tv, to get your message out and everything else, i mean, i would have a number of other reforms as it relates to campaigns, but this was a step, and we believe a step in the right direction. >> dylan -- >> congressman jones, how can people learn more? how can people get involved forcing this debate not 2012 presidential election, with this amendment or anything else that's here? >> well, thanks again for your effort. we wanted the people to know, and thank you again for this opportunity for john larson and myself to say that we are trying. we need the american people to get behind this legislation, to call their members of congress and say get behind this legislation and let's return

power back to the people. >> you know what would be interesting as we continue to watch this petition grow. perhaps one or both of you could join us for some form of direct engagement using the internet,ion what the mechanism would be to just gin a debate with people that i think do agree with you. there's a lot of skepticism of people in your jobs, quite can lidly as mine, and i say to people it's only to be judged by your actions at this point because our words have been proven of little value. >> and, you know, dylan, to your point, there are many people, and i daresay both in corporate america and those who lobby o k street, have the lobby of ideas, not of pac money. >> where do people check out this piece of legislation? >> thank you, dylan. >> it's the fair elections act,

fair now. >> yes. >> thank you, guys. talk to you soon. the petition from the folks associated with "the dylan ratigan show" and beyond it at this point as the debate expands beyond any one media property and into a centralized and expanding political issue in this country. get-moneyout.com. 28,000 people in less than a month have signed on to this petition, we have lawrence lessig's amendment and if you would like to learn more, go to the website and do a little bit of reading. more content underneath the links than you think. our current goal to turn that 200 into our second digit double of 400. as we take a break here, look forward to a trip on the boeing dreamliner and the nightmare mistake that got one passenger on the maiden flight for a

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after more than three years of delays, boeing, much hyped for its 787 dreamliner. that bird flew, first commercial flight from tokyo to hong kong. not even the biggest or fastest commercial airplane out there, but it is one of the most efficient. the jet made out of composite materials as opposed to the traditional aluminum we've been flying on makes the plane lighter and therefore needing less fuel, but fuel efficiency isn't the only perk on the new bird. the dreamliner has more leg room, better air quality, that's a nice one. more overhead storage space which obviously is a good selling point, and for me the one improvement who everyone flew today loved and can i see why they did. bigger windows on the whole darn plane. like the dreamliner, ticket prices took off for this maiden voyage. 100 tickets were sold to the public. $1,000 a pop to go tokyo to hong

kong. six additional seats were auctioned off for charity, get this, one of them $33,500. for charity for the ticket, but before you think to yourself, wow, that guy really loves charity and airplanes, no, turns out he accidentally ended an extra zero on the bid. meant to bid 3,350. regular flights, more grounded ticket prices will debut next month and bigger windows and more leg room and overhead space seems to be something we can all align our interests around. still ahead here, however, taking liberties on this, the tenth anniversary of the patriot ask, or asking is it time to do away with it? that's it, kyle. let's go home. [ busch ] all right, guys, let's get out of here. [ pneumatic drills whirring ] ♪ ♪ [ beep ]

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it was ten years ago today that president bush signed the usa patriot act into law designed to give the fbi more counterterrorism power in an era of extraordinary fear immediately following 9/11 and the invasions of afghanistan and, of course, iraq. noble intentions perhaps, but power, as we know when it is allocated to a few without any visibility and without any enforcement mechanism for integrity can be a complicated thing at best and exquisitely dangerous one as well. the fbi is now able to invade our privacy in the name of

national security, withhold its reasoning behind that invasion, searching you or me, and issue letters that proverdict you or me from letting anyone know that you are being investigated. sounds like a third world country, doesn't it? so a decade later, the national debate continues. is it time to do away with what was presented as a temporary suspension of american civil liberties in the context of the 9/11 attacks? it's been ten years. that's a question our next guest raises, extensively in fact, as president of the aclu and in her new book, "taking liberties, the war on terror and the erosion of american democracy." we welcome susan herman to the show. congratulations on the book. >> thank you, dylan. >> at the end of the day this was a country built at its founding to the rejection of an oppressive government,

allegation of power through wealth in western europe. this country was built in rejection of that. give us your sense of how the patriot act reconciles with the ambitions and aspirations laid out in the constitution of this country. >> well, i think the patriot act is actually intentioned with a lot of our fundamental values. you're mentioning the framers. one thing tremendously important to the frapers who drafted the fourth amendment which is our right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures is that the government should not have complete discretion to decide whose homes to search and who to aref. one thing the patriot does, does many things, grab bag of amendments to previous law but one thing most poem are familiar with is the surveillance provisions which makes it easier for the government to find out about us, what the liberians know about what we read, what the internet service providers do and at the same time make it harder for us to fine out what the government is doing because of gag orders, et cetera. >> what is the best argument that you have seen for

perpetuating this act without any amendment or renovation? >> the best argument, and it's the argument that really became the winning argument in the fall of 2001, is a concept of a dragnet, really a central metaphor that i use, the idea that if we give the government broad hours it's possible that the government using one of those powers might apprehend a terrorist who they otherwise couldn't catch so that's the argument. it's plausible, but the problem is -- >> at what cost? >> exactly. what i'm looking people to do is look at the costs, more than the benefits. this is an argument that you hear that's not based so much on information but i think based on optimism, to say that the patriot act must be already because we haven't suffered another attack and, therefore, it's working. we don't know that. everything is happening behind the curtain, and i can give you examples of where i've become pretty skeptical if some of these provisions were ever worthwhile. >> elaborate. >> okay. well, in the fall of 2001, the patriot act was designed to give all sorts of powers to the

government but at a point we hadn't yet had the opportunity to diagnose what happened on 9/11. it was like we're preparing all these antidotes. so one of the things that was an assumption in the fall of 2001 was that we wanted to disrupt terrorist financing, and, therefore, we had to do all sorts of things, conscript businesses and financial institutions and charities and create watch lists and money laundering programs and know your customer and suspicious activity, reporting a whole wealth of things that really have businesses running and jumping through hoops, spending billions of dollars, and the whole idea was we're doing all of this to disrupt terrorist financing. well, five years ago the 9/11 commission staff wrote a whole report on terrorist financing where they said, you know, the money laundering analogy doesn't work, plus, it just doesn't look like financing for terrorism is coming from inside this country, and i -- ironically the wikileaks have just confirmed that, that the financing for al qaeda was not coming from brooklyn mosques.

muslims are being terrified from donating to charities and we don't know if it's doing any good. >> so if you were to advocate a path of reconciliation to either amend the patriot act or eliminate the patriot act, what would you advise, and where would you begin? >> well, where to begin is hard because there are hundreds of provisions, and i think you would have to start breaking it down and answering individually. as to the surveillance provisions, i think the chief amendment that we need is to put back more of the kinds of procedural protections that the fourth amendment provides. before the government can go look at your intensely private records, they should have to convince a neutral court that they have a good reason to do it. that's the basic concept of the fourth amendment. the patriot act in many ways steps further and further away from that. one kind of amendment. no reason to fear that the government wouldn't be able to get information that they need because the court that's mostly involved in these applications, the foreign intelligence

surveillance court, grants 99% of the government's applications anyway. >> one of the most i think disturbing things for a lot of americans as they realize what had happened after the patriot act and after sort of spending a few years in the america, the bush/cheney america, was the realization that a third class of criminal, a third class of prisoner had been created in america, outside of the traditional american justice system which has a lot of the protocols you just described, outside of the american military, and geneva conventions for justice, this third class of criminal was invented which required no due process. allowed guantanamo, et cetera, and i think what's been most disturbing to a lot of people in had country as they become more familiar with this is how is it that we ended up with a complete bypass mechanism for all of the due process in this country and the creation of a third class of prisoner without ever having had a legitimate legislative debate as to whether we think that's a good thing to do. >> i think that's right.

in fact, the supreme court did step up when it came to guantanamo when they said we can't have a land without law. you can't just say that person is a terrorist and, therefore, take away their rights when you don't have any reliable way to figure out whether they are a terrorist, but i'm talking about in my book, i don't really talk about guantanamo and torture as much as i talk about things that happen to ordinary americans and i tell, for example, the story of one of our aclu clients who was arrested as, quote, a material witness because the government realized they didn't have probable cause to arrest him so on a pretext they said they wanted him to testify in another trial. never called him to testify. really kind of wrecked his life, and it happens here, too, not just guantanamo. plus another thing that the patriot act allows, setting aside due process, is seizure of all the assets of a charity just while it's under investigation. no due process. government just keeps the money. >> that's a good way to get some money. reduce the deficit with that thing. >> there you go. >> listen, susan. a pleasure, the book, "taking

liberties." just fund a silver lining in the patriot act, take the charities' money and pay the deficit. >> no problem. >> again, we'll talk to you sooner than later. susan, coming up on "hardball," chris matthews taking a look at why he thinks for the first time in a long time there may be wind at president obama's back, but first what -- what is a disenfranchised voter to do? apparently least country. international ranter ari melber live in london after this. i've seen this before -- the old "impromptu in-law visit."

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. ari melber across the pond and in the chair for a daily

rant. hi, ari. >> hi, dylan, thanks. this week everyone is talking about how occupy wall street will evolve into a political force, and now some organizers are settled in on a big politician as their target, the democratic governor of new york. >> the people want a government that realizes that there's no economic future for the state of new york if we are the highest taxed state in the nation. >> governor andrew cuomo is taking a big gamble on a plan that unambiguously sides with the so-called 1%. he wants to actually abolish new york's millionaire's tax. the law, taxing the top broadcast, expires in december. if extended, that millionaires tax would provide about $3 billion next year when the state budget is scheduled to have about $2.5 billion of a shortage, but instead governor cuomo has been cutting education and health care spending in order to save money in that budget. now some activists are calling him governor 1%. look, if you follow insurgent activists movements it's

actually no surprise that occupy wall street, which has more in common with the left than the right, is targeting these democrats. in fact, the famous anti-war protesters in 1968 were at the democratic convention. and over the last decade the challenges from moveon and liberal activists were also against conservatives within the democratic party like joe lieberman, al winn and most recently senator blanche lincoln. the tea party may rail against obamacare but their first victories were against establishment republican senators taking out bob bennett and trey grayson. in fact, if there's one thing that we know about the tea party, it's that they can beat republicans. whether they will prevent obama from occupying the white house again is an open question. let's apply all of this to the protesters on wall street. right now, to be fair, no one is really talking about a 99% primary against governor cuomo or any other big democrats, but, look. if you do oppose the two parties that run this country, which i

think is what most insurgents have in common and you want to take electoral action you have two choices, start a third party which is actually pretty hard under the laws passed by the two parties in power, take on the party closest to your views and oust its leaders and create something better in its own image and that's one way to get the attention of incumbents like governor cuomo. dylan? >> a very interesting point, ari. i wonder if we have to make a transition to solving issues, turning banking into a debt creation machine and turning education from a prestige chasing of mediocrity that has learning, how does any political party participate in an issues-based debate? in other words, my concern is that these political parties are from the wrong century.

>> well, they are from a long -- from a couple of centuries ago, most of them. when you look at the millionaires tax, this is an issue that people in new york, teachers union and other groups have been railing about for a while. what's happening with protesters out in the streets and elsewhere is they are actually making a larger argument, as you would say, an argument about ideas that overlaps with say where the party is at, overlaps with what cuomo has been doing, but now it's got a different sort of more exciting foothold. >> if you were to look at cuomo as a political target, as somebody who has certainly more political analysis expertise than i do. what issur assessment of their judgment in picking governor cuomo as a potential target? he's done a lot on gay marriage and other issues and he's forged alliances, but there is a potential bit of lieberman thing here where there's