that's "the ed show." i'm ed scltz. you can listen toy my radio show on sirius xm channel 123 monday through friday noon. and you can follow me on twitter @edshow. and @wegoted. >> spectacular show tonight. i'm glad you got congressman mcdermott. akd mu award-winning filmmaker, author, and activist michael moore is here for the interview. michael moore fresh off his visits to occupy wall street and o occupy oakland and occupy denver. i was just watching him give a speech at occupy denver a few minutes ago on the live stream and he's going to be here with us live tonight in just a moment. michael moore, very exciting. but first, mitt romney sat down with a new hampshire newspaper editorial board, and while he was sitting down with that editorial board he said something really funny. >> i think you'll find that i've been as consistent as human

beings can be. >> i've been -- yeah. just to be clear that i'm not taking this out of context, mitt romney is not talking about like his consistency as if he's a pudding or something. he really is asserting that he has been as consistent in his positions as a politician as a human being can possibly be. mitt romney. to prove, it here's the full context. >> the nice thing about writing a book is that i can lay out what i believe on a wide array of issues to face the country. and i think you'll find that i've been as consistent as human beings can be as i look at those issues and as i try and apply those principles to government. i cannot state every single issue in exactly the same words every single time. and so there are some folks who obviously for various, you know, political and campaign purposes will try and find some change and draw great attention to something which looks like a change which in fact is entirely

consistent. >> okay. that is the full context. that is the context. i am not taking this out of context. mitt romney's saying he is as consistent as human beings can be in his political positions. now, you, fair viewer, i know you well enough to know that you are debunking this in your own mind right now. but you know what? let's give john huntsman a chance. john huntsman could not get attention at this point if he decided that he was going to do the rest of his campaigning naked. so let's be nice. let's give john huntsman a chance to do the debunking of this that you are already doing in your own mind. this is john huntsman's latest political ad, which is a good ad. but unfortunately, like all john huntsman ads, you can actually just go ahead and start it here. it begins very slowly and very pond roussely. so you're wondering what's up. but then ultimately it gets rolling. >> is the massachusetts approach that was passed on, governor romney-s that a good model for the nation? >> well, i think so. >> in the last campaign i was asked is this something you would have the whole nation do?

and i said no. >> i think there is need for economic stimulus. >> i have never supported the president's recovery act. all right? the stimulus. >> john huntsman's campaign is not doing much. but they are doing the mitt romney has no idea what he's talking about thing pretty well. >> i don't think i've ever hired an illegal in my life. >> we hired a lawn -- a lawn company to mow our lawn, and they had illegal immigrants that were working there. >> i believe that since roe v. wade has been the law for 20 years that we should sustain and support it. >> i'm in favor of having the supreme court overturn roe v. wade. >> thank you, john huntsman campaign. you get the idea here. so mitt romney saying today that he is, and i quote, "as consistent as human beings can be, that is a mistake by mitt romney for two reasons. one is that it's funny for him to say that. it's so demonstrably, provably, obviously, unshakingly untrue, there is basically not a single major issue in american politics

on which mitt romney has not taken both sides of that issue. but the bigger mistake here is that mitt romney is talking at all, that mitt romney is even making himself available to make laugh out loud mistakes at this point. here's another example. here's mitt romney yesterday doing what i think he hoped would be just a local media event in florida. >> let me ask you about tax cuts and corporate tax cuts and tax cuts for the wealthy. >> denise, you're buying into president obama's line and the democratic parry line that my party's the party of tax cuts for the rich. that just doesn't happen to be the case. the policies i've put forward are tax cuts for the middle class. i'm proposing no tax cuts for the rich. >> ha. again, i know you are debunking this in your mind right now. but just for the record here, here's mitt romney's tax plan. mitt romney's tax plan zeros out a tax that more than any other tax we have in this country is narrowly and specifically focused on rich people. only rich people pay it. and only really, really, really

rich people pay it. mitt romney does not just want to lower this tax. he wants to zero it out altogether. he found the one tax in the american tax code that you do not have to pay if you have less than $5 million. and he wants to get rid of that one altogether. >> i think you'll find that i've been as be consistent as human beings can be. >> and i'm proposing no tax cuts for the rich. now, to be fair, mitt romney might think that $5 million does not a rich person make. but otherwise, ha. and again, it is a mick because it's funny. it's provably, demonstrably, obviously, unshakably wrong here. but the biggest mistake is that mitt romney is speaking, he's making himself available to make mistakes like this on camera. if you're in the semifinals and your team is winning 100-0, take your starters out. you're winning the semis. your starters might get hurt. you're going it need them for

the finals. it's the first rule of politics. there's a lot of first rules of politics. but one of the first rules of politics is if your opponents are setting themselves on fire do not interfere. let them set themselves on fire. enjoy the warmth. shut up. right now mitt romney is on track to win the republican nomination for president, not by any great campaign combat of his own but because his opponents are imploding on their own. the rick perry campaign, for example, is now on day 6 of explaining that his very, very expressive, very excited, sort of out of character speech on friday in new hampshire was not the result of rick perry being drunk or high. governor perry's campaign still explaining on day 6 that he was definitely not drunk and definitely not high while giving that amazing speech that i still can't quite believe he did. the old political saying is that when you're explaining you're losing. right? well, when what you're explaining, what you're having to insist is that your candidate

wasn't hammered, you are definitely losing. so rick perry still has a ton of money, but hard to imagine him -- yeah. you know, that's done. and besides rick perry, rick perry is at about 9% in the polls right now. so it's not like rick perry had very far to fall. the only real rival that mitt romney has in the polls right now is form eer pizza chain ceo herman cain. and as you may have heard, mr. cain too is doing a pretty good job of blowing up his own candidacy right now. >> the white hot spotlight of the 2012 election is on herman cain this evening. >> allegations of inappropriate behavior back in the '90s. >> another couple of shoes have dropped in the herman cain sexual harassment allegations story. >> cain is calling the whole thing a smear campaign. >> herman cain was making it up as he went along. >> the political storm which has engulfed cain's candidacy shows no sign of abating. in fact, his efforts at damage control seemed to compound his problem. >> if you have not been

following every detail of the herman cain sexual harassment allegations saga this week, i feel for you. i do not sympathize with you. i empathize. i get it. i will admit to personally mostly ignoring every twist and turn in this in the hopes it will just run its course and then the inevitable and foretold popping of the herman cain bubble can be recounted in a past tense sort of way. but it is sort of taking a long time at this point, and maybe the bubble won't burst at all. so here's the basics. there are now allegations of sexual harassment, of unwanted sexual suggestions or advances or sexual at least suggestions that made other people uncomfortable from herman cain toward six different women. the first two we learned about last weekend when politico reported two former employees of a lobbying group that herman cain used to run up -- used to run. two women complained of sexual harassment by mr. cain. both of those women left their jobs and were paid settlements of tens of thousands of dollars in exchange for signing agreements that they wouldn't speak publicly about what

happened. since then a third woman, also a former employee of that lobbying organization, says she too was sexually harassed by herman cain at that organization, although she did not make a formal complaint or get a settlement. in addition to those three women from that organization that herman cain used to run, a veteran republican pollster has now come forward to say that in the late '90s he saw herman cain behave in a sexually harassing manner toward a woman in a restaurant in the d.c. area. the man said he was one eyewitness of several who saw the alleged harassment and was bothered by it. similarly, an iowa conservative radio host wrote to politico.com yesterday describing "awkward/inappropriate things mr. cain said to two females on my staff." now, the cain campaign has responded to this flood of allegations this week by doing the political equivalent of setting themselves on fire. at first denying the allegations entirely, then saying that there were accusations but that the accusations weren't true. then they said the behavior that was considered to be harassing

was actually just a big misunderstanding. then mr. cain, who had previously said he didn't remember any of the details, started talking about some of the other details. then they tried to bring other candidates into it. yesterday herman cain's campaign manager, the smoking guy, he said that rick perry, rick perry, owed herman cain an apology because it was rick perry's campaign that was behind the leak in the first place. well, today after mounting that great stand on that political hill, smoking guy backed down from that allegation that he had leveled against the rick perry campaign just yesterday. only to have the candidate himself, herman cain, reassert the allegation just hours after his campaign manager took it back. when herman cain spoke with sean hannity on the radio. the most interesting thing about the herman cain campaign this year and the success of the cain campaign before now was the question of whether or not you really could make a realistic run for the nomination with mostly just the koch brothers on your side. herman cain has not mounted a real campaign ofrpgs.

i mean-e does have the smoking guy as his campaign manager. the last campaign the smoking guy ran was a judicial election in wisconsin in which smoking guy broke the law so flagrantly that he got banned from politics for three years and had to pay a fine. that was the last campaign he ran. the person who is number two on the herman cain campaign as far as we can tell has never run a campaign at all, ever. but smoking guy, before this gig, did used to run a state chapter of the koch brothers' group americans for prosperity. the non-sexual harassment scandal about herman cain this week is how unknown donors seem to have illegally funded the first few months of the herman cain campaign. we still don't know who exactly those funders are. but the money that we can trace is all hooked up in americans for prosperity, and therefore the koch brothers. americans for prosperity is also what herman cain seems to be using as a substitute for a campaign structure. he is just plugged into this koch brothers-funded activist group instead of hiring a campaign staff.

it is a pop-up, ready-made national political operation. the only candidates who the republican party has been able to field to compete with mitt romney for the nomination this year are these guys. the seven dwarfs. i'm sorry, no offense to dwarfs. i shouldn't say that. but i mean, look. really? huntsman, santorum, ron paul, michele bachmann, newt gingrich, that's buddy roamer, and in case don't recognize him i think that's gary johnson. yeah, that's gary johnson. this is it. and if this is the best the republican party has to offer america in 2011, then the great question of herman cain's candidacy becomes really important. could a couple of billionaire brothers just run a guy themselves? could they just buy him a successful republican presidential nominating campaign? interesting question. important question. and now the answer is starting to become clear, and that answer is no. herman cain does not seem to have the wherewithal to put this

thing together now. one crisis and ka blooy, koch brothers money or not. which means the nomination really is mitt romney's. unless he finds a way to light himself on fire now too. a former chairman of the republican party will join us next. sun life financialrating should be famous.d bad, we're working on it. so you're seriously proposing we change our name to sun life valley. do we still get to go skiing?

sooner or later, you'll know our name. sun life financial.

just ahead for the interview tonight is michael moore. also, michael steele is on his way. stay with us. [ male announcer ] can febreze air effects eliminate even these tough cooking odors? [ facilitator ] tell me what you smell. it's grassy. it's green. [ facilitator ] go ahead and take your blindfolds off. oh my goodness. are you serious? [ male announcer ] febreze air effects eliminates tough odors so you can breathe happy guaranteed. at bank of america, we're lending and investing in communities across the country, from helping to revitalize a neighborhood in brooklyn

to financing industries that are creating jobs in boston or providing funding for the expansion of a local business serving a diverse seattle community and supporting training programs for tomorrow's workforce in los angeles. because the more we can do in local neighborhoods and communities, the more we can help make opportunity possible. i believe i have a good sense for where you cross the line relative to sexual harassment. >> live free or die. victory or death. bring it. >> if more allegations come, i assure you people will simply make them up.

>> today has been awesome, girl! this has really been a great day. >> the only other allegations will be trumped-up allegations. there's nothing else. >> i love herman. is he the best? i mean, i get -- i have fun with him. he is a great, interesting guy. and thank you, herman, for helping pay for the event tonight. >> it's amazing. it gets better and better. joining us now is the former chairman of the republican party, michael steele. he is now an msnbc contributor. mr. steele, it's great to see you again. >> good to see you. >> for all the things that parties do not do well, one thing that parties do is they vet candidates. they keep people out of the running who are going to embarrass themselves and the party if they get too far. right? isn't that part of what's supposed to happen? >> yeah. those days are long gone, rachel. i mean, the primary process and the electoral process has

changed dramatically. and the ability of parties at the local level or the national level to keep someone in or to take someone out is very, very difficult to do. i mean, the old days of that kind of happening where you kind of pushed some guy or gal up front and said it's your turn has really kind of been turned on its head. so there's very little that you can do to keep someone out of the race who really wants to get in. the filing fee that, you know, you make the filing fee, you're on the ballot. so then it's a matter of getting the percentages at the national level to be in the debates and the like. but the parties don't have that kind of control anymore. >> do you think it is substantively important that herman cain never bothered to build a traditional campaign structure or really a campaign structure at all? i've really seen him sort of plugging into this existing political structure that's the americans for prosperity, sort of koch brothers group. >> well, i don't know about the tie-in to the koch brothers. it's kind of plug and play.

if that's the case, if you're alluding or saying that that kind of money was being set up for herman, then you've got to look back and see how big money has played in other elections. certainly it helped obama in 2008, coming out of nowhere, no one really knowing who he is. yeah, he gave a great speech at the '04 convention but that does not a presidential candidate make. so -- >> the money thing is a separate issue. i mean the staffers np pp nobody works for him except the americans for prosperity organization. that's new and different, isn't it? >> well, that is different. and you're right. to the extent he came into this without the infrastructure to support a presidential campaign, yeah, that is substantively significant. and i think you're seeing the results of not having that structure in place when it comes to communication, when it comes to legal, you know, vetting of issues that may rise to be a problem. and certainly the organization having the command and control on the message side to make sure that the campaign stays steady and focused on its message.

the same is true for a number of other campaigns as well that have had to go rather light. but they don't have the problem of having to be on the front page of the papers right now. so they don't necessarily see the same kind of stress points that a herman cain is seeing without having that structure in place. >> tomorrow night both mr. cain and mr. romney are going to be, forgive the term, sort of stiffing the iowa state republican party, not showing up for the iowa republican party reagan dinner. instead, they're going to go be giving speeches at a koch brothers event. the both of them. i wonder if that strikes you as significant. that seems to me like sort of an ominous decision for the top two ranking candidates right now for the party. >> well, i don't know when that was on the schedule for either of them, when this event came up. there's probably a lot more on the back story for that. but taking your point on its face, i don't think it's that significant that they're not there. i think certainly for romney he

is going to be giving, you know, a policy speech. i mean, he's trying to fill the void that's being created by herman cain's, you know, problems right now. and staying out front, pushing the envelope the way he liked to push the envelope on the issues as opposed to getting in the muck and mire of sexual harassment claims. herman is probably there to hopefully try to change his storyline as well. and to be in front of an audience that can help him do that, to give him the moral support he needs. and so i don't see it so much as a slight to the iowa party. but again, not knowing when these things came on their karnd calendars. >> if you were mitt romney looking at the field, looking at your prospects, looking at what's to come in the next few months, wouldn't you bury yourself in the guard nguyen a straw to breathe through? wouldn't you say just please let it stay like this? >> just pile the dirt on. >> yeah, be a turtle.

pull your head in, pretend -- i don't know why he's -- because he's made some missteps in his interviews and maybe they're not going to hurt him now but they make perfect campaign ads. don't you think the guy this should just -- just button it? >> no, i think what he's doing is appropriate now. he's getting out there. a lot of it's local media. in other words, he's not doing big national interviews. he's doing the local interviews and sort of connecting on the ground, if you will. so i think that's appropriate. again, like i said, he's trying to fill that void, rachel. he's trying to while all this activity is going over here with herman and with rick perry, he's sitting there saying i'm the adult here, i've got the policy plan, i've got the initiative, i've got the momentum, the first votes are two months away, let's sit down and talk about health care, let's talk about the economy, let's talk about anything other than what everyone else is talking about. and i think that's kind of smart right now for him. >> it is if he weren't saying stuff like i'm not cutting taxes for the rich. except for the estate tax.

but never mind. i mean, just can't make mistakes -- all right. i get your point. you get mine. one last point. i said in the introduction a moment ago that i empathize with people who are not following every twist and turn of the sexual harassment scandal with the cain response. and i mean that. but i mean like empathize, like i feel that way too. but reminded me, a producer said during the break, we bought empathize on your behind.com as a url after you said that on a radio show. just in case somebody else has it, here it is. >> i'll give you empathy. empathize right on your behind. >> so now that we work together, i have to ask you, do you want empathizerightonyourbehind.com? i will give it up to you if you like it. >> yes, i'll take it. absolutely. >> my gift to you, sir. msnbc contributor michael steele, former chairman of the republican party. thank you so much for being here. >> you got it, rachel. >> great to see you. >> how do you deliver somebody a url? we'll have to figure that out

tomorrow. michael moore is going to be joining us shortly for "the interview." very exciting. but we have more ahead besides that. including why i have tiny branded baby sized rachel maddow show cocktail shakers now and branded highlighters. it's all new. that's coming up. ♪ [ male announcer ] you never know when a moment might turn into something more. and when it does men with erectile dysfunction can be more confident in their ability to be ready with cialis for daily use. cialis for daily use is a clinically proven

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first things first. michael moore is the "interview" tonight. there he is tonight. live from denver. hi, michael. talk to you in a second. secondly, tomorrow night on the interview we're going to have on

this show the one and only lemony snikette. less well known as daniel handler. author, narrator, and occasional character in the series of lemony snicket books like "a series of unfortunate events." he's a cultural hero of mine but recently he has been doing fantastic work on the 989% movement. he's been writing for occupywriters.com. also i have to tell you tomorrow night is our first ever "rachel maddow show" fan appreciation night. if you're a fan of the show, you may have heard this is happening. we have sent packages of "rachel maddow show" stuff like baby size cocktail shakers and highlighters and stuff to lots of people across the country who signed up online and they're going to be hosting watch party tomorrow night where the main atrack is this homely little show. now, the cool thing about this is it's a way that you can meet other people who also like the show. so you can find each other other than online, flesh and blood. and then of course you will go on dates and ultimately decide to reproduce, thus creating a new generation of people genetically inclined to be fans of this show, thus ensuring a

long-term future for this program and all of our staffers. ha. that's the good part. the less good part is that we have never done this before and we have no idea if it's going to work or how it's going to work. if it does work, we will do it again. so hopefully, we'll get good reports from you all tomorrow night. but thanks, everybody who's going to do it. we will be right back with michael moore. we're america's natural gas and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses... ... and giving us cleaner rides to work and school... and tomorrow, we could do even more. cleaner, domestic, abundant and creating jobs now.

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if you are the congressman from youngstown, ohio, you are the congressman from what was pronounced today to be the number one highest concentrated poverty rate in america. youngstown's about halfway between cleveland and pittsburgh, which is sort of like saying it's halfway between rust and belt. and i mean that lovingly. from lumber and grain mills and then on to steel mills, youngstown used to be a place you could make a living wage. until the steel industry collapsed. september 19th, 1977 youngstown sheet and tube announced it would lay off 5,000 workers. since then, since youngstown, ohio's black monday the city's gone from being a place that thrived on making things to a place marked by an amazing determination to stick it out. to try to bounce back from the worst. youngstown's putting in bike racks downtown now. cool ones. these pictures are from a blog

called iwill shout youngstown. youngstown celebrates when a landlord manages to rent out a building downtown. youngstown wants to live. but youngstown's hard times are getting harder. this report today from brookings talks about youngstown's 19 census tracts that are listed as poverty in extreme. and if you are youngstown's congressman, you are charged with going to washington, d.c. and pleading youngstown's case. screaming it into the wind if you have to. youngstown's congressman is a democrat named tim ryan. listen to him here on the house floor. he's sort of brilliant here, and it's worth hearing. but while you are listening to him check out what you can see in this clip as well. look around him at who he is saying this to. >> i know many of us have been talking about this for a long, long time to where we've had 30 years of stagnant wages in the united states. and there is no way that we're going to be able to continue to be the leader of the free world

or really even have the kind of country that we want if we have this kind of level of inequality. and there are issues that come before the house of representatives. there are issues that the president is continuing to push that will help rectify this problem that is not getting any attention at all in the house of representatives. and one final point. you're starting to see it percolate. you know, you saw it in with us which is. the coalition in ohio now against this issue 2 is incredible. police, fire, teachers, public employees, building trades, auto workers, machinists, average people, all coming together to say this is the middle class and we've had it up to here. and occupy wall street, same thing. income inequality. >> the congressman from youngstown. look. pleading youngstown's case. the case to deal with american incomes falling off a cliff if you're not in the 1%. and he's -- this is to whom he

was speaking. he's making that case to an empty room. so he is both explicitly making that point and he is implicitly making that point, that nobody is paying attention to the economic catastrophe that has been wrought in a place like youngstown. it may be that not enough of d.c. is paying attention. but these very ordinary folks who are part of occupy youngstown are paying attention. this is a photo from occupy youngstown's general assembly. ordinary workaday, working americans who say they've had enough of an economy and a political system that only works for the rich. these are occupy youngstown's tents outside a bank. an implicit demand made by physical presence that we ought to expect more out of our systems than that they just take great care of the banks. looking at their photos today on facebook, i think this is the sort of anonymous edge of occupy youngstown. and here are some youngstown occupiers who are old enough to remember when the mills sent everybody home and the economic destruction began. joining us tonight for the

"interview," having just spoken at occupy denver this evening which i watched on the live stream, is michael moore. filmmaker and author of the new book "here comes trouble: stories from my life." mike, it's great to have you back. thanks for being here. >> thanks, rachel. >> am i right that you are at the tattered cover in denver? is that where you are right now? >> i'm at the tattered cover bookstore in denver. very famous bookstore here in this part of the country. >> before you leave give everybody a hug from me because i love that place. >> yes, it's -- >> so sorry. i was just going to say i know you were at occupy oakland a few days ago, occupy denver today. i've only been to occupy wall street so far. what kinds of differences are you seeing when you go to these different protests, between these different places, mike? >> what i'm seeing are -- it's actually quite similar. i've been to probably half a does occupies across the country this past week. and it's clear that there's a

real broad cross-section of people. i think we're past the early weeks of showing the same shot of somebody dancing in a long skirt and a bongo drum. which i'm all for dancing in long skirts and bongo drums. don't send me any e-mails, bongo people. but what you see now are moms and dads bringing kids. you see grandparents. you see bus drivers. you see all kinds of people. and you see people who are suffering just complete abject poverty. so it really is quite a quilt, if i may say it, of what this country is. and on all kinds of levels, everybody has sort of come together on this one basic

issue, which is that our democracy doesn't exist when it comes to our economy. and people, average, everyday people don't have a say anymore as to how this economy runs, how it functions, how it affects people's lives. and i would think that if we're talking democracy, in a democracy movement here, this is far more important to people than the democracy that allows us to vote for politicians, which i'm not saying that that's not important, but these things are the things that are face people every day. people's homes are underwater. they're facing foreclosure. they have been foreclosed. they have been thrown out. 50 million people. you know all the stats. i don't need to go through this again. who don't have health care. the horrible situation with our educational system. you go down the list, and everybody has felt this on various levels. and they've all come together now. and i tell you what, from what i've seen there's no turning back. they are not going away.

they have had it. they want the -- they want that, as i just said over here at the occupy denver rally, they want that boot, that corporate boot off their necks. it's just -- that's just strangled them at this point, and they are not able to function in just the very simple base uk american ways. let me just have a job. let me get a decent salary. let me put a roof over the heads of my family. and if i get sick, damn, it let me see a doctor. i mean, really, is that a lot to ask? it's been very powerful. and i've been very moved by what i've seen and heard. >> mike, it is one thing to see the big protests in places like new york and in oakland and los angeles and philly. it's another thing, it sort of hits you at a different level, to see these smaller -- smaller groups, things like occupy youngstown, ohio, occupy tulsa, occupy pensacola, occupy

elkhart, indiana or casper, wyoming. what do you make of people choosing to do direct action like this in so many smaller out of the way places? do you think that -- how does that affect your understanding of the meaning of all this? >> it's -- that's what's so amazing about this. and nobody's organized this. there's no structure. there's no e-mail blasts going out through the -- to the dues-paying members. saturday night i was at occupy grass valley, california. this is this little town as you head up into the mountains up toward reno. and i'm thinking this is an area that's got a republican congressman. and yet there's 400 people out here for occupy grass valley. somebody told me there was 400 people at occupy fayetteville, arkansas. i mean, the media really hasn't been able to cover the breadth of this because it's happening in so many places and our newsrooms have been so decimated in the last decade that there

literally aren't enough cameras or crews to cover all the small towns and villages and all the places i've seen this just springing up like it's just -- i've never seen anything like it honestly in my lifetime. >> aside from the common issue, the common complaint that you're describing, that our systems ought to work for somebody other than just the richest americans, both our political system and our economic system, aside from that issue it seems like there are some tactical things that are in common here, even if there isn't a big top-down organizing movement. there's people using the people's microphone when they have a large -- when they have a large crowd. there's people doing -- making decisions and meeting by general assembly, which is basically a consensus-based discussion where everybody gets together and comes to a decision that everybody can live with. i wonder if you're seeing that -- a, if you're seeing those tactics everywhere and, b, if there are splits emerging. as you know, in oakland yesterday there was a very successful general strike, very successful all day long, basically peaceful until after

midnight when there was basically rioting. and the occupy oakland people are essentially disavowing the people who are rioting. are you seeing difficult discussions about non-violence and about potential splits and differences in tactics? >> yes. well, yes and no. everyone i've spoken to is committed 100% to non-violence. this is the only way that this is going to work. in fact, we don't -- we don't need violence because we're not in the minority here. this is the majority. this is a majority movement. if this country is of, by, and for the people, if it's to run by the will of the majority, there's no need for violence because the majority have already said we're sick and tired of this and we expect some changes. i think in oakland there's a very specific -- in terms of the violence there, oakland has a long history of police abuse, of how the black community has been treated. they just have one of the worst -- i mean, literally, it's almost in the dna of how oakland is structured in terms of their

city hall and their police. and it doesn't seem to matter who the mayor is. they just can't deal with this basic problem. so i think that had a lot to do with it. but you're also going to have groups that come in wanting to co-opt this movement, whether it's slick politician that's want the endorsement of what they think is a liberal tea party or anarchists and others who don't like the non-violence approach and want some form of violence. but my experience, and i've been around since the anti-vietnam war days, is that generally i tell the crowd this over at denver here just an hour ago, if you see someone trying to incite violence start with the assumption that that person is an undercover homeland security or cop or whatever because this is the history of america, where those in charge have tried to ignite people, incite them to commit acts of violence. and i tell them don't be incited. just assume right away that person is not part of the occupy

movement if that's what they're calling on people to do. >> michael, do you mind staying with us for just a minute while we have to take a break? >> no, sure, that would be -- that would be fine. >> michael moore joining us -- >> i'll read a book here while i'm waiting. >> exactly. from the tattered cover bookstore, one of america's great indies in denver, colorado. we'll be right back with michael moore. does that in one daily . citracal slow release... continuously releases calcium plus d for the efficient absorption my body needs. citracal. your core competency is...competency. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. i'm getting an upgrade. [ male announcer ] as you wish, business pro. as you wish. go national. go like a pro. now through january earn a free day with every two rentals. find out more at nationalcar.com.

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taxes plus income tax, mine came to 17.7%. the average for the office was 32.9%. there wasn't anybody in the office from the receptionist on up that paid as low a tax rate. and i have no tax planning. i don't have an accountant. i don't have tax shelters. i just follow what the u.s. congress tells me to do. >> a new report out today shows that warren buffett is not alone in scoring a way sweeter deal on his taxes than, say, his receptionist. at least 30 fortune 500 companies paid zero taxes or less for the last three years. or less means sometimes the government pays them. over those three years those 30 fortune 500 companies made $160 billion in profit. but they still paid zero federal income tax. or even less than zero. if you paid anything in federal income taxes over the last three years, you personally as an individual human paid more federal income tax than wells

fargo, general electric -- hi, boss -- verizon, boeing, dupont, duke energy, pg&e, also that wie energy company that dumped this crap into lake michigan this week. you paid more than all those companies combined. so if wells fargo was considering turning itself into you, one of the down sides for wells fargo of doing that is that you actually pay more income tax than they do as a company. but today at the g-20 another zillionaire took your side in this anyway. bill gates today urging the world's 20 major economies to support the popular idea of a financial transaction tax. we used to have one of these in this country from 1914 to the mid '60s. then they repealed it. the basic idea is a very, very small tax, something like a quarter of a percent, on financial trades. national nurses united marched today in washington in support of a financial transaction tax. democrats tom harkin of iowa and representative peter defazio of oregon have introduced a bill that would reinstate the

financial transaction tax in this country. worldwide the idea of doing this globally in all financial markets is getting vocal support from the archbishop of canterbury today, from the pope, who put out an official catholic church statement on this last week. also conservative german chancellor the conservative french president nicolas sarkozy. president obama talked with merkel and sarkozy. author ron sus kin reports that president obama at least used to personally support this idea of there being a financial transaction tax. members of his economic team, specifically lawrence summers apparently pushed against it and we didn't get it. now lawrence summers is gone from the administration but today the u.s. officially does not support a global financial transaction tax even though france and germany do. not to mention the pope. we often hear a critique of the occupy wall street movement that it's not specific enough, that nobody knows what the demands

are. here's one. here's a very specific demand from everybody from the pope to american nurses to bill gates to the german chancellor doesn't that sort of seem doable? michael moore is still here with us for the interview. thank you for sticking around. >> yes, thank you. it's doable. it's very easy to do. it's -- and it's so simple. it's not all -- everybody trying to get their claws into the rich, it's just a half a penny or a quarter of a penny per dollar that's traded on the stock market or for these derivatives that they're still selling or these credit default swaps that they're still messing around with. every time they do this, just a half a penny or a quarter penny goes to the government. this would raise in the united states a minimum of $350 billion a year of extra income. add that on to the $2 billion a week that we're still spending on the wars, if we could bring the troops home and end that,

that's another $100 billion a year. 450 extra billion dollars would go a long way to help things here. and i -- there's no reason that that just can't be introduced now. and frafrnkly the democrats shod do it. they should push it. and if the republicans can't go along with this, then let them try and run on that. that this wasn't a tax on mr. and mrs. america, this is a half a penny, half a penny per dollar that's being traded that used to be taxed, that isn't taxed any longer and it hurts this country. >> one of the reasons i wanted to talk to you about this, michael, is i know not only that you've been visiting so many of the occupy protests, but also because i know that you think strategically about how america changes on things that we're not supposed to be able to change about and i wonder how you feel about this issue of the specificity of what the occupy protesters are asking for. the agenda we're talking about just a few minutes ago is a very

broad but simple agenda that systems should work not just for the rich, but then there's something calling for that tax, which couldn't be more specific. do you think the specificity or the generality of the goals helps in terms of people understanding it? does it make it more complicated? >> yes. no, i think there's a lot of people out there who support occupy wall street and are just waiting for, okay, what's the marching orders here? what are we going to get behind? and a lot of the general assemblies have already passed resolutions saying we need to reinstitute glass-steagall, we need to get rid of the bush tax cuts for the rich. there's quite a program that's coming together. this is one of those things that's so easy, just as we also need to tax every -- if there are fica tax, social security tax is around 7%, but the wealthy, after $110,000 pay zero social security tax, zero fica

tax, that they -- i mean, literally, and you've covered this on your show, i mean, this is just another simple idea, if you're making $40,000 a year, they're taking 7% out of your check for this tax, but the wealthy person has 0% taken out if they make over $110,000. that's just -- it's such a simple idea. and i think the majority of the country would be behind it. obama said he was behind it at one time. and i think what we need with this movement is we need to keep things broad and keep the discussion going at the same time, we're going to start focusing on some specific things. and we need to push congress and the president. we're not going away. this movement is only going to get bigger. you can see by the polls, it just gets more support each week. and i think that, you know, just give the movement a few more weeks, it's only six weeks old. and it already has the support of tens of millions of americans, which is unheard of

for a brand-new movement in this country. that usually takes decades. so occupy wall street has it already. now the next steps will take place and i've got to tell you, i hope i'm not being pollyanna here but i'm just very optimistic that some good things are going to come out of this. but there's going to be pushback from congress and from these corporations, but it's too late. they overplayed their hand. they got too greedy, the people aren't going away. >> six weeks old and already talking. that's the way i like to think of it. >> that's right. >> michael moore, filmmaker and author of "here comes trouble, stories of my life," thanks so much for taking time to talk to us tonight. thank you so much, my friend. >> thank you and everyone here in denver thanks you too. do you have an irregular heartbeat called atrial fibrillation, or afib, that's not caused by a heart valve problem?

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debunktion junction. at a charity football game in washington, d.c., last night, the capitol hill police beat members of congress. the score was 27-14. is that true or is that false? false. yes, the capitol police did win and yes that was the score, but despite any headline you may have seen about this, the team they beat was not a team of millimet members of congress. it was cops on the one side but on the other side it was members of congress and former nfl players who are not members of congress. what is herschel walker doing in a congress team jersey as tweeted by paul gosar of arizona. herschel walker, not a former or current legislator. roll call says that mr. walker comes to d.c., quote, every year lobbying for physical e