leave it to the new york post. >> he loves the harlem shuffle. >> she loves that song. amazing. that and emotional rescue. >> oh, yeah. >> it's too early. >> we'll be back tomorrow. time now for chuck todd. don't go to extremes. voters channel their inner billy joel on labor and health care. mississippi on personhood or even in arizona. they sent a message. we don't want elected officials to go too far. for 2012 purposes republicans learn it's no longer 2010 or 2009 but it's not 2008 either. see the virginia state senate. herman cain, defiant as ever is doubling down on his blanket denials and challenging anyone to prove him wrong. how risky is this strategy? is it a do or die debate night

in michigan from tax reform to auto bailouts to the housing crisis, the economy in sharp focus tonight. how many candidates will let their desperation show. it's wednesday, november 9, 2011. this is a special edition of the daily rundown from oakland university in rochester, michigan, the site of tonight's cnbc republican debate. i'm chuck todd. let me get to the first reads of the morning. if it's wednesday we have election results. and the if voters delivered a message yesterday it was one of restraint whether on the rights of union workers, the rights of women, immigrants, on the issue of health care collectively from ohio to arizona to mississippi. the message was, you are going too far. in ohio, democrats are celebrating a big win for unions. voters overwhelmingly rejected issue two striking down a law limiting collective bargaining. as good as the white house may feel about the labor vimtry, at the same time those same voters in the symbolic vote rejected

the president's health care law. 66% of voters promoted no person or employer to participate in a health care system. symbolic, by the way. after a vote in mississippi, personhood is likely dead as a referendum movement. voters rejected an amendment to outlaw all abortions and likely many forms of contraception. in maine where republicans ended same-day voter registration at polling places, voters decided to restore the practice. in arizona the architect of the state's controversial immigration bill was recalled. russell pierce become it is first sitting state president in the nation and the first arizona legislator ever to lose a recall election. and republicans may flip control of the senate yet. the tight race in the 17th district is too close to call. provisional ballots will be counted today but could be a

20-20 tie, too. and democrat steve bashir trounced david williams in kentucky, winning a second term in mississippi. republican government phil bryant defeated dupree, the state's first african-american nominee for governor. but the new crop of republican governors, particularly john kasich, scott walker and rick scott could be baggage for the eventual republican nominee in in the swing states. tonight eight republicans running for president meet in the ninth ke debate of the cycle right here in rochester, michigan. the backdrop, that's impossible to ignore the sexual harassment charges against herman cain with two women now publically accusing him of sexual harassment. a defiant herman cain doubled down on his strategy at a news conference in arizona. >> the charges and the

accusations are absolutely rejected. they simply didn't happen. the democrat machine in america has brought forth a troubled woman to make false saaccusatio, statements, many of which exceed common sense. >> cain went as far as to say he does not even know accuser sharon bialek. almost daring opponents and the press to come forward with inconsistenci inconsistencies. >> i'm not an expert on how the brain works. but i do know that i sat there and went over and over in my mind do i know this lady. the answer kept coming up no. sitting there, trying to remember, do i know her? i didn't recognize the face. i didn't recognize the name nor the voice. one of the things that people who have worked with me for years will tell you is that i'm pretty good at remembering

people. >> and cain spoke about karen crashower for the first time by name. she's a 55-year-old spokesperson for the treasury department that says she's the woman who filed a complaint against cain in 1999. >> i was standing next to ms. krausha kraushaar. i said, you're the same height as my wife because she comes up to my chin. that's all i remember. >> another name herman cain used repeatedly -- his own. >> a businessman by the name of herman cain stepped forward. >> because that's the person herman cain is. >> one thing about herman cain a lot of american people know is

just because it's tough is no reason for me not to do what i feel like i have to do. >> some people don't want to see herman cain get the republican nomination. >> some people don't want herman cain to become president of the united states of america. i can't tell you what their motivation is other than it's to stop herman cain. >> bob dole called. he wants his schtick back. the elephant in the room tonight may be herman cain. will we see it in others on stage. rick perry and jon huntsman are in desperation mode tonight. the president won the state by 16 points. the state has 11.1% unemployment, lost thousands of manufacturing jobs in the past decade and has the 4th highest foreclosure rate in the country. in a recent poll only 38% of voters here approved of the

president's performance. romney's favorable performance here where his father was governor and where he was born, democrats are hitting him on his opposition to the auto bailout. that's going to be a question to see how he handles that and goes back and forth. we'll see it toint as well. few states have been hit harder than michigan by the economy. tonight's debate takes place outside detroit, a city that lost a quarter of the population over the last decade and has seen unemployment as high as 15%. with me, steve liesman and sharon epperson who will be doing part of the questioning on set here. steve, let me start with you. i'm excited about this debate. you guys aren't covering the campaign process. you guys cover the economy every day. you cover the markets. steve, what is it that you haven't heard on the campaign trail that you are interested in hearing tonight from candidates. >> i haven't heard much of

anything on the campaign trail that was interesting in terms of solutions to the economy. we have had a lot of complaining about where we are now. i think that's justified given the high unemployment rate. when you hear and watch what the candidates have said so far it stops there. we need to repeal what the president has done, what the president has done isn't good. we are not in a good place. haven't heard a lot of how you get us to the next place. a key issue is housing. you go back and read the debates. nobody has a housing plan except for the foreclosures. >> we're not giving away anything by saying there will be a lot of questions about housing. >> how do you fix the economy. how do you fix this problem. how do you get people working? we know you don't like what the president has done but what are you going to do to change it, make sure i can stay in my home, to make sure i can pay back the debt i owe, what are you going to do to make sure i'm going to

be able to find a job and in this state where unemployment is so high on this campus where young people are facing leaving, graduating with unemployment rate of 14% right now, they want to know what you're going to do for me, how you're going to fix this. >> one of the defining issues of the campaign is the role of government. what should the role of government should play in the economy. in michigan it's a mixed bag. there are a lot of auto workers who may not be fans of the president. you have been to events where you're not a fan of the president but, boy, i'm glad they rescued the auto industry. >> this is an issue for the country and our time now. we have had a period of extraordinary government intervention in the economy. is it temporary or if we keep going that way who pays for it? we look at what's happening in europe. as the wall street journal said about the collapse of the

welfare state, what kind of state are we going to have? as we probe on the economy, i think we also come to their governing concepts and governing philosophies which is what's the right balance? you can't just say no government. the way you pose the question is if you withdraw the government subsidy then this person is hurt or that person is hurt. let them answer the e real question. >> you brought up education, sharon. you think a lot of the guys are talking about, well, maybe the government is too involved in helping to give money, figure out a way to loan money to students. but then how do you entice students to get to college? >> we haven't heard a plan other than you should work your way through college. a lot of people are doing that. that's what herman cain did. students at this university and others are doing that yet they are still burdened with student loan debt. what do you tell those who graduated in five, ten, # 25

years, people who write to me all the time still burdened by student loan debt? how do they get out of the situation and how do you make sure this country is competitive? we talk about the economic advantages or disadvantages. what about the education front and where we stand versus other countries? what are the politicians, the candidates going to do? >> what's going on in europe, steve? >> it's on the verge of a legitimate crisis. they have had an opportunity to solve the problem. they either punked it, called a timeout or whatever metaphor you want to use. they reached a point where they could no longer stall. and italian government debt is now more than 7%. you are reaching a point where it's difficult for italy -- >> to borrow money. >> one of the leading western nations to fund itself. and europe has to look deep in its economic soul and say, what are we?

>> greece was different. >> this is bigger and something the candidates. >> sharon, steve; looking forward to tonight. thank you both. cnbc's your money, your vote, republican debate is tonight live at 8:00 p.m. on cnbc. join the conversation now on debate.cnbc.com or on twitter with # cnbc debate. we have much more still to come on this special edition of "the daily rundown ". what do the people of michigan want to hear tonight? we'll ask a congresswoman who knows a thing or two about this part of the country. she represents it. and what romney's campaign hopes to get out of it tonight. [ male announcer ] cranberry juice? wake up! ♪ that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm [ male announcer ] for half the calories -- plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8.

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the last time they debated, rick perry went on the attack blasting mitt romney over immigration. the two square off again tonight. for now he's focused on his own biography. >> as the son of farmers i learned the values of hard work, faith and family. i took the values with me when i served our country as a pilot in the air force. i returned home to farm and ranch with my father. and married my high school sweetheart. the values i learned served me well as governor of texas and will continue to guide me as president. >> michigan congresswoman candice miller is blocking rick perry. right next door is your district. who knows when they redraw the map, maybe you will get it back. why not mitt romney, a favorite

son of sorts of the state of michigan. >> the ad you showed is indicative of one of the reasons i went with rick perry. i want a president who doesn't speak totally to my mind, that doesn't look at america as a balance sheet only. obviously the economy and jobs will be the marquee issues but there is a vision for what america is and what we can be as far as american exceptionalism. i think rick perry's background, his story is compelling. this is a man that can speak to your heart and mind. >> he lost the most ground in the last poll. second poll in a row where he was the candidate that lost the most ground. he's had, by any measure a tough start to the campaign. how concerned are you about it? >> well, now as he's focused on the early states and we welcome all the candidates to michigan which is ground zero unfortunately for the painful economic transition we had in our state and nation.

i think as governor perry has an opportunity to really articulate his tax reform plan, h his flat tax plan which i think is a wonderful way to grow the economy, i think as he talks about his energy plan which is a way for us to advantage ourselves of our natural resources, create jobs and make our nation energy independent all of these things will give him an opportunity to recapture some of the ground he may have lost and position himself well. >> you can't come to michigan, think about the economy and not think about the auto bailout and what the government had to do for gm and chrysler. where are you in hindsight on the decisions the administration ended up making starting with the bush administration, continuing with the obama administration. >> it started with the bush administration. did go with the obama administration. both administrations were in favor. we don't call it a bailout here. we call it the bridge loans. we have a quaint idea that we actually pay back the government. those of us from michigan, obviously the auto industry is

our lifeblood here so we were supportive of the bridge loans. >> you think the rhetoric is too heated that what was done for gm and chrysler? you said we don't call it a bailout here. a lot of republicans running for president call it that. >> you know, i think in that case i would say obviously they all think there should have been more of a private sector solution, not a government solution. but i would say that ship has sailed now. the auto industry is coming back a bit. i think now we have to look at the kind of policies each of the candidates are putting forward to focus on how we go forward not only for the auto industry but manufacturing in particular. all the auto suppliers, et cetera. i do think governor perry's plan will best position the auto industry not only to do well. the way they will do well is create customers which means people have jobs so they can go buy one of the wonderful domestic auto industry products. >> have you convinced governor perry what the two administrations did was a good idea? >> i think the governor feels

strong about a strong auto industry. i don't think he's convinced what happened was the right thing. >> you disagree on this issue? >> he believed in a private solution. however i will say this. i think governor perry understands the auto industry well. i think one of the general motors biggest plants is in texas. he drives american cars, by the way. i appreciate that. he also understands that we have to have a strong manufacturing base, that a country cannot be great unless we have the ability to build things and that's really particularly for national security standpoint. >> can a republican win michigan though looking like they are on the wrong side of the issue about the loans to gm and chrysler? >> i think they can. they have to convince the people here in michigan that their economic plan. as i say, the economy and jobs, that's a marquee issue. people are looking forward. whether it's the housing problem or whatever, all of these issues can be solved if we can grow the economy, get people back to

work. i believe that governor rick perry's positions for the flat tax, his tax reform, all these things position him best for the economy and jobs issue. this is right in his wheelhouse. tonight's debate will demonstrate that. >> congresswoman candice miller from michigan. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> you can't talk about michigan without talking about the auto industry and there is something the democratic national committee wants voters from michigan to hear from mitt romney. >> you wouldn't know he was from around here. >> let detroit go bankrupt. >> this city where american rubber meets the road. a town that's been to hell and back. what's his answer for the motor city? >> let detroit go bankrupt. >> what do you say to the man who would have put the city on cement blocks, kicking us when we were down? >> let detroit go bankrupt. >> you say, hit the road, mitt.

>> let detroit go bankrupt. >> well, senior adviser to the romney campaign eric fernstrom joins us. >> welcome. >> you do this all the time with the debates. let me ask you. i am a little bit confused about governor romney's position on -- you heard the congresswoman there. she said, we call it a bridge loan not a bailout. what was governor romney against and what was he for? what part of the obama administration decisions did he support and what part didn't he? >> first, michigan is personal to mitt romney. he was born here in detroit. he spent the first two decades of life here. his dad was a two-term governor and an auto industry executive from michigan. it breaks his heart to see what's happened to the state. the obama administration holds out michigan as the crown jewel of their failed economic recovery program. i was driving in from the airport last night, went through pontiac. it's in receivership.

block after block of abandoned store fronts, for sale signs in every other yard. this is absolutely heartbreaking. 11% unemployment. what we need in the white house is someone who's skilled at creating jobs. mitt romney spent the better part of his career in the private sector doing exactly that. >> specifically, on this area, because i have heard he wasn't for it at first and then he said, well, they followed my suggestions about the -- >> his position, chuck, was laid out in the new york times in november of 2008 before obama took office. >> which was let it go bankrupt? >> when george bush was considering giving checks to the auto companies and what mitt romney said is don't give them checks without tying it to results. guide them through a managed bankruptcy process. the obama administration resisted that course for the first months of the administration. they ultimately pursued it. it was that, not the government

bailouts. it was the managed bankruptcy process that allowed the auto companies to shed e excess costs and come out much more competitive. >> so the end game -- it sounds like you're saying governor romney liked what the administration did. that's what he would have pursued. >> he would not have given them bailout checks without tying it to results. >> that's what happened. >> during the early days of the obama administration they were encouraging university yoond management to come together, shed costs. we weren't getting results. it was only through the process of going through that managed bankruptcy, letting the companies go bankrupt and then reorganized under the protection of the bankruptcy laws that allowed them to emerge on the other side in a more competitive position. >> why do you think in ohio, when it comes to -- talking about unions here, when it comes to the collective bargaining issue, this is a swing state, a state that if you're the nominee, why do you think voters

rejected dpov nor kasich's bill. >> in ohio? >> yeah. >> i'm not from ohio. i'm not an analyst of ohio politics. this is a state-specific issue, not a national issue. i don't think you can draw conclusions nationally. >> this is a state you will -- assuming you're the nominee and i know what you do when you assume, but that's a state you will spend time in. you have to understand why they did this, right? >> sure. in the off-year elections turnout is generally lower than presidential election years and the democratic machine which includes special interest groups like the aflcio they are active in organizing the membership and churning out the members. that had something to do with it. but i wouldn't draw conclusions about what happened in ohio or any other state yesterday and try to derive meaning out of that for what will happen in 2012. 2012 will be a referendum on obama's handling of the economy.

i don't know of anyone who gives them good grades. >> when it comes to the herman cain issue, governor romney called it disturbing, the allegations. sounds like herman cain owes more explanation. is that fair when he hears the word "disturbing"? they are serious allegations. the governor thinks they need to be answered. they can only be answered by herman cain. we won't allow ourselves to be consumed by the drama of other campaigns. we have serious challenges ahead. governor romney will focus like a laser on this. >> as a leading strategist in the party are you concerned the herman cain thing is staining the republican party uh now, its image? distracting? >> it's an issue for herman cain to deal with. >> are you concerned what it's doing to the -- this is one of the cofront runners in the national polls. are you concerned what it's doing to the republican party image? >> mitt romney is concerned about the economy, fixing the economy. he'll continue to focus like a laser on those challenges and we

won't be drawn into the drama of other campaigns. >> i'll see you in the spin room tonight. >> thanks, chuck. >> buckle up. the market rundown is next. italy, italy. oh, boy. plus, herman cain's problems are piling up as another woman comes out publically. who's telling the truth? the complicated politics of sexual harassment. first, today's trivia question. michigan congressman john dingell is the longest serving house member in u.s. history. how many members of congress are older than congressman dingell? we'll be right back. ♪

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. the opening bell has rung. looks like it will be a rough ride on wall street. andrew ross sorkin joins me with the market rundown.

a lot of candidates in rochester, oakland university want to know how crazy this will be. >> we are living in a sea of red arrows. it is not faungs of what's happening in the u.s. at the moment. it's what's happening in europe, specifically in italy. the ten-year bond in italy now breaching a very significant interest rate which is 7%. the reason why 7% is so important is that's when ireland, portugal and greece all decided they needed additional help, emergency funds to stabilize the economy. when you get to that level your cost starts skyrocketing. that's what's happening in italy despite berlusconi's plan, if you will. i think the sense is they will not get their house in order. that's why interest rates are skyrocketing. it's a function of the fact that this is a no confidence vote, if you will, in what's happening there and this idea of how they are going to deal with problems.

chuck? >> all right. a no confidence vote in italy and a market having no confidence in europe. the daily rundown will be back in 30 seconds. welcome back to "the daily rundown." from rochester, michigan, the site of tonight's cnbc republican debate. a few other stories making headlines this morning. students rallied in support of penn state football legend joe paterno last night even as

university support for the coach was said to be eroding fast. the university's board of trustees is forming a special committee to look into the sex abuse scandal involving the team's one-time defensive coordinator, coach jerry sandusky. guys, a committee? i think you know what to do. in the town of lexington, south carolina, it's now legal to buy booze on the way home from church services on sunday. residents voted nearly 3 to 1 to allow the sale of beer and wine on sundays. the referendum goes into effect early next year, just in time for the south carolina primary. remember? south carolina primary is on a saturday. so you can deal with a hangover on sunday. more now on the herman cain drama. his campaign was criticized for inconsistent handling of sexual harassment allegations. it's not the first misstep of the businessman's campaign. we took a closer look at the

other campaign gaffes for cain. he'd been having problems, more generically, less salacious even if it weren't for these things. >> you're right. there are a lot of problems and issues herman cain has had to deal with that has nothing to do with the sexual misconduct allegations. herman cain grappled to contain the explosive allegations of sexual misconduct that have consumed his campaign in the past two weeks. he's blamed the press, accusers and fellow candidates. this is not the first time he's scheduled with consistent messaging. his campaign has a history of controversy, gaffes and missteps. he stumbled when talking about abortion indicating he was in favor of abortion rights in some instances. >> it ultimately gets down to a choice that that family or that mother has to make. >> he backtracked later saying he was against all abortions. he struggled to explain the 9-9-9 tax plan. >> you're mixing apples and

oranges. >> reporter: after it was criticized for raising taxes on the poor he added a 9-0-9 component with zones that exempted some from tax hikes. asked about the protesters he said. >> don't blame wall street or the big banks. if you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself. >> reporter: he clarified to say he was just talking about the protesters, not all of the 14 million unemployed in the u.s. when asked if he was comfortable hiring a muslim, he said -- >> no, i will not. >> reporter: he later backtracked. >> would i be comfortable with a muslim in my administration, not that i wouldn't appoint one. >> reporter: then there is foreign policy. >> beckybeckystanstan. >> reporter: cain said china was seeking nuclear weapons but they have had them for 47 years. he backtracked again saying he misspoke. he said last week he would want

more american ships in the persian gulf even if it prompted a war with iran. >> that would be perfectly all right. i believe we have a superior capability. >> the more he stumbles on questions the more doubt it raises about whether he's really ready to be president of the united states. >> reporter: so far cain's support remains strong. in the latest nbc wall street journal poll he's in a statistical tie for the lead for the gop nomination with mitt romney. there were warning signs. republicans still view him favorably but his negative ratings tripled. >> the most important thing to do is over the course of the next 60 days, show that he has a great and steady command of the big issues of the day. >> chuck, the next 60 days will be critical for cain. of course the next week -- >> i was going to say, 56 days. >> even if he gets past the sexual allegations which will

consume -- the scandal will consume his campaign. he's going to show a command of these issues. >> always a threshold issue. nice work. it is the sexual harassment charges that are hanging over the cain campaign now. nbc's national investigator gay tif correspondent has been looking into the sexual harassment claims levelled against herman cain and michael joins me now. mike, what's interesting is you have noted there is a pattern when politics meets political campaigns meet sexual harassment allegations. >> exactly. it plays out in very similar ways. we have seen this movie before. an accuser comes forward, makes allegations. the political figure strikes back. partisans strike back, pore over life -- put the accuser's life under a microscope, pick out inconsistencies, holes.

and, you know, partisans rally to the barricades. that often works the first time. or maybe even the second time. we have seen it with anita hill, constantly with bill clinton, jennifer flowers, paula jones but the cumulative weight of the allegations add up. i think cain probably could have survived if just last week's accusations because nobody had come forward. he probably could have survived if it was just sharon bialek because there is just enough holes in the story in terms of lack of corroborating evidence, we don't know what it was. they haven't released the corroborating affidavits. there are financial troubles. but you put them all together and it's pretty hard to imagine how he could get beyond this. >> now we have learned overnight

karen kraashaar that she filed a complaint, another and another associated press report about that. you know, it goes to what you were saying about the history issues that this is stage three of the process. >> you put the accuser's life under the microscope. it was fascinating the press release the cain campaign put out. who is sharon bialek, listing the case numbers of the civil lawsuits and bankruptcies she'd been in. when they really had no evidence that she's out for money or doing this for money. you just raise the question. i remember when i covered the paula jones case and the pushback from bill clinton's

lawyers. well, she's out for a book deal. you just raise the question. you can put it out there and you can cast just enough cloud to convince partisans and people in the middle. again, cumulative weight. if there is a collective press conference of the accusers how devastating will it be? you're starting to see that now. i thought mitt romney's comments were the most interesting yesterday. main stream republicans, establishment republicans and other republicans of the race don't want the distraction hanging over this republican primary any longer. >> they are walking the line though. they know they need -- the guys not named mitt romney want herman cain's supporters so they don't want to alienate him. mike, thanks very much. a programming note. cain accuser sharon bialek will be live on msnbc at 11:00 today.

don't miss it. up next, we've got a special predebate political panel. we'll talk tea party, occupy wall street and the elephant in the room tonight, herman cain and tonight's republican presidential debate focusing on the economy airs live at 8:00 p.m. on espn. first, the white house soup of the day is cream of broccoli. here is a soup george h.w. bush never would have allowed in his white house. see? he's taking his vitamins. new one a day vitacraves plus omega-3 dha is a complete multivitamin for adults. plus an excellent source of omega-3 dha in a great tasting gummy. one a day, gummies for grown-ups.

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good evening. live from the berlin wall on the most historic night in this wall's history. what you see behind me is a celebration of the new policy announced by the east german government that now for the first time since the wall was erected in 1961 people will be able to move through freely. >> the daily flashback to this day in 1989 when the berlin wall came down. tom brokaw was the only u.s.

television correspondent that night with a live satellite feed from the brandenburg gate as east german citizens began pouring into west germany over the border. for people of a certain age it's a moment they never thought they would see. in advance of tonight's debates democrats are going after mitt romney for his opposition to the auto bailout in michigan. here he was in michigan in june. >> from the very beginning back in november of 2008 as the auto executives went to washington asking for a check i said don't give them a check. they need to go through a managed bankruptcy process. i wouldn't have written checks like the bush and obama administrations did. i would have said, go through bankruptcy directly on your own. don't give the company to the uaw when you're finished. >> rick santelli is the on-air editor with cnbc business news and a regular contributor, of course, to cnbc squawk on the street. and democratic strategist debbie dingell served for 30 years as a

senior executive as general motors. welcome to you both. fun to be here in michigan. debbie, let me start with you. i had congresswoman candice miller here and it seems in michigan what the government did for the auto industry is not a partisan issue, but it's a pretty partisan issue outside the state of michigan. >> that's true. the fact of the matter is even when you look at polling it's a little surprising that it's 50/50. >> in michigan. >> 50/50 in michigan which surprises people. but the delegation, i think this is a time of leadership. people recognized what would happen if the industry wasn't given the bridge loans. i think everybody thought it was a bailout. it's not going to be paid back. they are the fastest growing, creating jobs and the money will be paid back. but the democrats have is to do a better job telling that story as they go forward and they will hold republicans accountable for what they would have done. >> rick, you're not shy about your views of where the government should intervene and

where they shouldn't intervene. in hindsight, where are you on what the government ended up doing with gm, the managed bankruptcy and where it stands today? >> i think currently given the stock price and their position it's probably around 26, 27 billion still invested with the american taxpayer. i guess i look at it differently. you know, there are so many cars that will be purchased in the united states in any given year. the cars will have dashboards, windshields, door handles and if gm had gone down we always hear about the impact on unemployment, but yet same amount of cars are most likely going to be purchased and i think those cottage industries and those parts industries that were so targeted from an unemployment perspective would still be making door handles, windshields and it would be going to a different assembly plant whether it's a japanese company domiciled here, which isn't a bad thing. yes, think the government should stay out. i'm not optimistic about payback. >> my question to you in follow up would be is it the

government's responsibility to say, okay, america has to have an auto industry. can't let the japanese and koreans and germans end up the dominating force in this industry. if the companies are failing, the u.s. government needs to prop them up. what do you say? >> i disagree. they would be subsidizing the buggy whip industry if that was true. the government, whether it's solyndra or other issues other than nasa and military r & d which isn't direct investment in the private sector, i have no problem with those areas, but i believe in the marketplace. i understand people might have a bad taste in their mouth with the marketplace. but once again whether it's occupy wall street or the tea party, be careful and look at the issues. the government let a lot of raw meat out there and bankers are like dogs. they eat raw meat. be aware of that. don't kick your dog when you leave the steak out and go to the other room. >> what do you say, debbie?

you said 50/50 in the state that say, you know what, as much as -- and you were at gm a long time. when do you let the market go? >> i agree with you. i believe in the marketplace. there are times you look at government globally you will see the governors partner with business far more than they did invest in r & d. you talk about letting local suppliers across the country go. a lot of that work would have been done in japan or korea. the koreans -- >> the supply chains were pretty ingrained. i don't know that they switch. >> oh, i -- >> look at the supply chains after the china earthquake. i think the established parts makers would have found different areas to sell to. >> look what happened after japan. you couldn't get paint for some cars in this country because that's where the japanese are producing and the r & d. we don't need to debate it. >> you brought up occupy wall street and the tea party. in our nbc wall street journal poll one out of two people we

survey identified with one of the movements. think they are more connected than people realize. one thinks they are getting an unfair deal from wall street and one thinks they are getting an unfair deal from government. the unifying them -- it's in es bailed out the banks. i think that's your connector. my world, the banks should've failed, the only regulation that works is failure, and we probably at that point wouldn't have either of those organizations marching or protesting. >> you have to sit here, you hear people, what do you say to these two movements? >> well, i think we need to understand there's a common theme, people are unhappy, they're scared, they don't know how they're going to educate kids. we've got that sense of discontent between both parties. and they want quick solutions, and there aren't quick solutions. >> now you've hit the nail on the head. rick santelli, debbie, stick around. more about the debate after the break. trivia, we ask, michigan

congressman john dingell is the longest serving house member in u.s. history, but there are a bunch of members of congress older than john dingell. the answer is five. two members of the house and three senators are older than the longest-serving member of the u.s. house. we'll be right back. you're watching "the daily rundown" on msnbc. they want a job. the postal service employs more veterans than any other civilian employer. but congress is debating a bill that would force the postal service to fire tens of thousands of vets, close post offices, shut mail processing plants, and disrupt mail delivery. drastic cuts won't fix the postal service and aren't needed. tell your representative to vote "no" on house resolution 2309. it's time to deliver for our veterans -- and america.

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let's bring back our panel. rick santelli and debbie dingell. there's an elephant in the room tonight. it's not the economy, it's not the auto bailout. you're going to be a questioner on there. as a viewer, what are you thinking of like, okay, you've seen all this salacious stuff over the last week, now he's sitting there at a debate. what do you think you want to know from herman cain tonight? how does he manage this? what's the -- >> in terms of the details about all of the issues of the day regarding his personal life and some of the not-so-pretty

possible issues, i can't speak to those. i don't know what the reality is. but i think in terms of herman cain and the way his numbers have held up so well even in the face of some of these issues, it shows that the american public is looking for somebody outside the system that is real, genuine, and maybe they don't need to be perfectly polished and experienced and have the perfect press conference. but i do think having said that, that the dealing of an issue whether it's true or not does give one insight into whether he's presidential timber or not. >> there's a way there's a leadership test in many ways. some people think the way bill clinton handled his scandals in '91 and '92 and said, well, this guy can handle a crisis. is that fair? >> i think that's absolutely fair. i don't know whether to be scared or not. i totally agree with everything. >> be afraid. >> no, but i absolutely agree. and i think that cain is not showing that he can be a leader. i'm greatly disturbed by all of

the accusations that are happening. i've seen both sides of an issue as a woman, and i find it very emotionally disturbing. let's look at all the others. what we viewed earlier on in the show of all the mistakes that cain -- >> he made a lot of mistakes with nothing to do with this. >> we need to see how he would lead, and i don't feel very good. >> shameless plug time. rick, what's yours? >> well, i guess the italians always say they do things better, boy, their interest rates are certainly skyrock skyrocketing. i guess in that contest, they win. >> take your money out quickly -- >> all right. >> i love having you all in michigan. some day new hampshire and iowa are not going to go first. and you all will get to go to good football games and eat coney island hot dogs. we have michigan, michigan state, we've got the best -- >> it's the mac conference on steroids. thank you both. that's it for this edition of "the daily rundown."

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