good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes. president obama has arrived in hawaii where he's holding a series of meetings with foreign leaders before leaving next week for australia. washington nationals catcher wilson ramos has been rescued by venezuelan police after a gunbattle with kidnappers who grabbed ramos wednesday. i'm joined by senior editor and staff writer from new york magazine, one of my own personal

writing heroes, a visiting scholar of political science from university of austin, director of communications for latino decisions, a nonprofit group for increasing awareness. msnbc political analyst, professor of sociology at georgetown university. great to have you here. thanks for joining me. i want to start today with a study in contrast, contrasting two different incidents that happened on the same night this week on opposite coasts at two different public universities. incident one, more than 4,000 students turned into what state college police called a riotous mob, overturned a news van. there's a lot of kids participating in this, only some of them were doing that so we're not tarring everyone with the same associational brush. their grievance, the firing of

joe paterno, legendary football coach at penn state in light of the case there. number two, protesters. a nonviolent demonstration, the students want to occupy, pitch tents there. police come to take them down. they attack demonstrators with batons to the stomach. the grievance here on the part of the student. the kid in the gray hoodie is super brave standing in the front of the line there. the grievance here economic inequality, rising cost of public education in california. cal tuition raised 21% this year. the highest of any state. the board of regents with a plan to raise it a stunning 80% over the next four years. this is the kicker to me about the contrast. at penn state as of now, we all

saw the news van overturned. there were zero arrests. at u cal berkeley entirely peaceful, people were arrested. dave zion on the program later joining us from washington said november 9 was a generational wakeup call to every student on every campus in this country. which side are you on? do you stand with the thugs of penn state or do you stand with occupiers of berkeley. stakes are higher than a bcs bowl. you operate on campus. one of the things that's been really interesting about watching the occupy movement is that it is largely driven by young people, if you look at the folks who showed up on the sleeping bags the first night. it was 20, 25 years old. do you feel like there is in the university of texas, austin, a

big public university, very big-time sports program and also budget cuts. do you feel like there is a kind of political activation happening among students there? are you seeing that of late. >> let me preface, i went to und undergrad, so i've been around big sports my whole life. there is this culture with the sports team. they go out, turn over cars, light fires, in the street. it's accepted, part of the university big football, big basketball culture. i think what we saw at penn state, it was associated with spores and th sports so they took it to another level. i'm not surprised. regrettably i'm not. >> michael, do you -- there's a sort of complaint you will hear and i want to talk about this this moment. this is something we don't talk about enough, generational

politics. you hear, where are the kids, why aren't they on the streets? you hear this from nostalgic boomers about the lack of college activism. does that question cross your mind? do you feel like you're not seeing the level of political activation given the crisis you would expect. >> that is the claim of the baby boomers from the 1960s. you run the numbers, think about martin luther king being interviewed in "playboy" magazine. why aren't most people who are black involved in your movement. start breaking it down. where was that picture of you? most people weren't involved even then. let's get rid of nostalgia and the view of the '60s to make them look better now. having said that, when you get on television every night, you can be more politically activated and motivated.

here the suffering has been m minimal. the process has been masked. here occupy movement, occupy d.c., i've been down there. yeah, there's a resurgence of real vital activity, because it has to hit people in their guts. unless it hits you where you live, you don't respond in the same way. >> we were talking about the draft and how key the draft was to activating the movement on campus. raising tuition 81%, i was talking to a grad student at berkeley talking about the two things firing people are they feel like the university is being transformed from a public institution into a semipublic one, essentially. it is being closed off to the public. also the sort of flash points of conflict with the police. at the beginning i was sort of hess tan to cover because i didn't want the store to become a story about the incidence of police. the person at berkeley said there weren't that many people in the beginning. what ended up happening, when

they saw the reaction of the police to the protesters, this flood of people who were standing watching from terraces taking that video started chanting. at some point in that video they started chanting, stop beating students, stop beating students. this clash with the police has become the catalyst at all these moments for the movement to go forward. >> speaking not as a baby boomer but a war baby, this reminds me so much of certain things in the '60s. yes, what happened at penn state was like a panty raid. it had the form of panty raid. >> i don't know if we can say that on air. >> because -- look it up on google. because of the darkness of the -- of what touched off that, the reason the coach was fired, that gave it a much different -- not a lighthearted feeling the

way college hi jinx happen. >> it was mainly males taking part in the riot at penn state. it wasn't the student body, it was mainly men, mainly the boys on campus. >> what's interesting. it's like the difference between hockey. have you a brawl in basketball, the world is ending, civilization as we know it has gone awry. in hockey they are socking each other every night. the problem, with the rioting going on, it's acceptable. a lot of people said if that would have been black or latino kids, you would have seen police beat down on them in a flash mob. >> i want to talk about the various lenses we can look at and understand what happened at penn state broadly. talk about that later in the program. we'll talk about campus generational politics and my story of the week next. ny small business credit card. the spark card earns double miles... so we really had to up our game.

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my story of the week, the politics of grandchildren. of all the democratic divisions in american politics, and lord knows there are many, black and white, urban, rural, one of the powerful is the generational divide. 2008 voters over 65 were the only gauge group to vote for john mccain. 18 to 25 voted for obama by 66 to 31%. in 2010 congressional, 19 to 29 made -- 11%. went to 23% in 2010, the olders voters prefer republicans by a 20 point margin and we got a republican house. can you see the generational division in the faces of those camped out at occupy wall street and those who attend tea party

rallies. for instance, this as opposed to this. or this -- yes, this versus this. at occupy wall street you have 20 somethings in sleeping bags and a healthy drum circles which turns out not to be the activity. crowds at tea parties and iconic shoutfest of 2009 tended to look more like the folks you might encounter at the morning aerobics class at the y. recession hit everyone regardless of age. new figures show percentage of elderly poverty is much higher than previously thought, with 15% below the newly recalculated poverty line. fluctuations of the stock market has wiped out many a 401(k) throwing retirement plans into chaos. not as if aarp have escaped the wrath of economic misery. but there is an especially brutal emotional force to the sense of dashed dreams experienced by people of my

generation and younger as they wrestle with the worst economy in 80 years. we've spoken here before about how frustration with student debt, terrible job prospects and underwater mortgages fueled occupy wall street. this week came a new study from pew that further highlighted how difference the experience of the great recession has been for those at the end of their careers and those just starting them. pew found in 1984, households headed by those over 65 had 10 times the wealth as those headed by people under 35. by 2009, over 65 households had 47 times the wealth of under 35 households. it also found while household wealth has declined across households headed by people of all age groups, it's down by far the most in households by those under 35. at issue is something grander than the effects of this particular economic catastrophe. it's the strangely divided american social contract. because you see, there are two americas, not just in the divide between the 1% and 99%.

there are those who live in social democratic america with access to a defined benefit public pension system called social security and a single payer health insurance system called medicare and there are those who live in america of patchwork, tax incentives and loan guarantees and the like. with the same social insurance for young people that we have for seniors, we would have federally funded universal pre-k and public guaranteed four-year college. instead we spend a lot more on our seniors than we do our children. part of this is a result of the disproportionate weight of baby boom, cohort larger than any sense. part due to the fact older americans vote at higher rates than younger ones so politicians pay special attention to their concerns. part of it is due to something of an accident of history. poverty among elderly people was a national disgrace during the early and middle parts of this century at a time when liberal presidents and policies like social security and medicare were direct, universal and

public. since then we've lost that kind of policy vision, so instead we have the largely privatized tax code-based policies of student loan and community college tax credits. the politics of all this are far from straightforward because the central demographic irony of american politics at this moment is that those that most benefit from the social welfare state, people over 65 are the most conservative cohort, demographic most kmilted to its destruction. republicans need to marshall support for undoing welfare state while simultaneously promising their base they will get to keep their part of it. a rhetorical two-step they perfected. the first step is to cloak contempt for social insurance in the righteous mantle for future generations. they want to gut the welfare state and scrap some of the most successful programs in history on behalf of the grandchildren. they hate to do it really but they must to make sacrifices now for those in the future to

prevent bankruptcy for the grandchildren. >> we owe it to the american people. we owe it to our kids and grandkids to begin to cut spending and begin to transform these programs so that we can save medicare or medicaid and social security. >> what i think the folks in the tea party, those who are concerned about passing along debt to kids and grandkids want, i think what they want is us to spend less. >> i won't place one more dollar of debt upon the backs of my kids and grandkids. >> we will continue to amass deficits that mortgage our children and our grandchildren's futures. >> it will be our kids and grand kids saddled with that. they will think of us as quite a generation that left them $532,000 to pay off after we're gone. >> the kids and grand kids, that is who they are doing it for. the second step, that is the key, tell current seniors and boomers not to worry, we won't be scrapping your benefits. no, heavens no.

>> anyone currently retired or near retirement does not have to worry about social security. it is not going to be changed. it's not going to be reduced. nothing will attack social security. it is solvent for our current retirees and for those people who are near retirement. but for people in their 20s and 30s and 40s and early 50s, we're going to have to make some changes to make sure the program is there for them. >> remember paul ryan's plan to phase out medicare, the one every single republican member of the house voted for wouldn't apply to anyone over 54 years of age. the rhetoric to right employees, courageous guardians of the interests of the nation's grandchildren. what they are proposing is maintain the same benefits for grandparents and destroy it for the grandchildren. if there's a more disingenuous aspect of modern conservative rhetoric, i don't know what it is. it's not the only place for rhetorical concern for future generations is belied by policy

proposals. sanctimonious politicians like john boehner going on about leaving a nation unburdened by debt they ferociously block efforts to curb carbon emissions, guaranteeing their grandchildren will inherit an earth in crisis. the moral challenge of our time is man made global climate change on track to devastate the coastlines where our grandkids will live and the farms that will grow their food. it has been largely ignored by conservative establishment more concerned with their immediate needs like campaign come nations from big oil. >> amen. >> i told you guys to give me an applause. rick, "what do you think about that? >> i think a lot of what you said is true, but i think you can put a finer point on it. first of all, republicans have been trying to destroy social security since the day it was

enacted, if not before. and secondly, they have been trying to destroy medicare since the day it was enacted. as of now, maybe give or take a few years, social security will be with us and can pay social security benefits until 2050. that's going to take care of a lot of people. not just people who are at retirement age or just at retirement age, before retirement age. that's nonsense. but part of the way that the republicans are able to get so much support is because they have scared younger people into thinking social security is not going to be there to them. if it's not going to be there for them, what stake do they have in continuing it. this is a total propaganda scare campaign to tell american people, if you're a young person there's not going to be any social security for you, therefore you don't have any stake in it so how do you care.

>> the polling reflects how effective it's been. young people extend to be -- >> the solution is simple. social security taxes which pay for social security, they stop -- all right. $90,000. you pay the same tax if you're making a million dollars, $10 million, $100 million as if you're making $90,000. if you made that tax progressive, just the way it's progressive up to $90,000, would basically solve social security forever, ever. no one would have to worry about it. the simple fix, nobody is talking about it, looking at it. they want to scare people to destroy the social safety net. we don't have a welfare state. >> we do in a way have a welfare state. what's so brilliant about this analysis, we have got european social democracy for the old, and it's being used to destroy that kind of approach for everybody else.

the republicans talk about class war endlessly. what they are trying to provoke is age war, generational war. they are trying to destroy any sense of solidarity between the grandparents and grandchildren. >> everyone should remember that when they cut the ads in 2010, the midterms, the one phrase "attack on obama care" was $500 million cuts to medicare saw it in senate and house races. that was the attack, not the individual mandate, big booted government, it's that he's coming for your medicare dollars. i want to talk to a 25-year-old congressional candidate who is running in the great stai state of illinois right after this break. cut! [ monica ] i have a small part in a big movie. i thought we'd be on location for 3 days, it's been 3 weeks. so, i used my citi simplicity card to pick up a few things. and i don't have to worry about a late fee. which is good... no! bigger! bigger!

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♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. >> ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't [ bleep ] with?

that's me. >> of course the president of the aarp speaking to -- just kidding, that was clint eastwood from grantorino standing in for tenth district, the chicago suburbs. you worked for movon before and now running things. thanks for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> i guess the first question community, they me.

is h cohort? when you were working at move on ike ur age. iverse you're 55 and a few years older than you, back in 2008. how do you raise money if you're 25 years old? the hardest thing running for congress is finding a lot of people, particularly wealthy

challenge? democracy you're he n o but we

f a grassroots campaign. but the great part of it was and it's a really important point to be made, i remember walking up the steps of the capitol to vote, all these lobbyists would stand there like a gauntlet, you owe me this, you owe me this. they never said it to me. i never raised money from them. i never could, they wouldn't give it to me. >> those were innocent days. >> innocent days. raising money on a grassroots basis and reducing that kind of need to depend on big money allows you to be free in a way to represent your constituents, which is what our democracy is supposed to be about and in so many ways has been perverted. >> we have a youthful candidate which warms my heart as a political scientist. i wanted to ask ilya what it looks like incorporating the youth.

you may not have the money that comes with the rolodex of an older candidate. what are you doing on the ground in the north shore area and building on the wave of president obama? t mobilization will be. energized, y driving omething coalition of high school t

north shore if it's reading bad there, what's happening in the surrounding district say further south where you get outside the loop where people are suffering. have you been able to forge any coalitions with people there so the unrest and discouragement you feel in your district is hours t like

districts. country. r congress in the tenth district of illinois. ilya, thanks so much for joining us this morning. i appreciate it. >> thanks so much for having me. >> the new numbers on america's poor didn't just find a generation gap, for the first time it appears black americans are no longer the nation's poorest ethnicity. we'll tell you who is right after this. u? fight back fast with tums. calcium rich tums goes to work in seconds. nothing works faster. ♪ tum tum tum tum tums

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thank you, michael. there we go. i want to play a little clip from wednesday night's -- was it wednesday night? wednesday night's debate. rick perry giving the same line we saw mitt romney give just so people are convinced this isn't me cherry picking republican talking point. here is rick perry talking about social security. >> the people who are on social security need to understand something today. it's going to be there for them. those that are working their way towards social security, we've made a pledge to them that those individuals are going to have those dollars there for them. >> perry, of course, in his book suggested social security may be, in fact, unconstitutional and then had to pivot and sprint as fast as he could away from that position after he got attacked for it by mitt romney. rick, this is what i like to call the government hands off my medicare problem. >> it's so contemptible, worse

than i thought. this morning i learned something about how contemptible it is, it isn't palliating old people it's pulling the wool over their eyes about what they have. they have got what liberals have always wanted. they have got it. they are being fooled into turning that around and supporting -- >> what i think is really interesting, too, there's a sense -- one of the things i find when i talk to older voters is a sense across party lines and ideological lines there's a sense we screwed things up for you. we screwed things up. things are really screwed up now and somehow we did it. we didn't do whatever we had to do, yet that doesn't necessarily transfer into the kind of policies that would -- the screwup. >> you've got the grandkids. each has what the others want. young people want more money and

older people want more time. it seems being older buys you more time than being younger buys you money. that's the disingenuous maneuver going on here. it doesn't transfer into we screwed it up. we screwed it up therefore we want to get it right with compensatory measures. they have been against right wing republicans since the beginning yet they lived off of it. world war ii, yesterday was veterans day. the gi bill was the greatest act of affirmative action in the history of america that created the middle class. now people that benefited from those policies want to turn their backs on young people struggling to make ends meet. i think it's pretty vicious. >> i'm not sure, though, that older people necessarily don't want younger people to have social security. i think they do. i think there's a lot of concern about making sure that those programs are in place. there's all this propaganda. >> i mean the old people running

things, not all old people. >> perry said social security is a ponzi scheme. that's crazy. this is propaganda that makes old people concerned, well, i guess we've got to keep what we have, make younger people feel we're never going to get it. they have no stake preserving the system. they don't vote, come out. >> talking about the connection, why do we see this connection of social security, older folks vote. the silver lining i see to all this, younger voters because they see that dire situation where their unemployment rates are close to 20%, that's going to get them out to vote. young people have not voted in the past because things have been good. they have been apathetic. you don't have to get out and do something. now they don't know what their future holds, worse than that of their parents and grandparents, that might light a fire under them to go out and vote. >> you have a weird politic political moment in the country. we've seep it two or three years. the most extended period of time i've been covering politics.

you have the politics of the shrinking pie. it's the habitat -- a union organizer said deer are nonviolent animals, you shrink their habitat and they fight each other. this was a union organizer talking about fighting each other. the broad context, politics of austerity, restraint, cuts, sacrifice, who is going to pay. that's when you get sort of who has their hands on the share of the pie. >> austerity is great for those who already have. if you had your run and accumulated your cash, your income may be low, your wages are declining but your wealth is far more significant than those who have yet to build either income or wealth. that's a big difference between older and younger generations. >> this whole frame of generational conflict is tailor made for what republicans are trying to do. we, the side i consider myself on. >> the young people. >> which side are you talking about in this quadrant.

>> on the political side, the age side, too. but this rhetoric of preservation, it's a timid frightened kind of let's keep what we've got. they are trying to take away what we have. if you don't have anything, if you're young, that rhetoric is not particularly appealing. there's got to be a sense of solidarity and grandparents. not because they grabbed something and we're not going to get it, but because what they have is a model for what the whole society should be like. >> we're going to talk about ethnic angles of generational demographic question right after this break. that you need ♪ ♪ come at just the right speed, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ medicine that can't wait legal briefs there by eight, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ freight for you, box for me box that keeps you healthy, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪

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ay yil ht so we got some new census numbers out. they have been doing interesting stuff with poverty statistics. they have been basically using the same way of counting poverty for a long time despite the fact

it has been attacked mythologically for not giving an accurate as possible picture of what actually poverty in the country looks like and it was sort of arbitrary come up with by civil serve, deep in the democracy. she actually went to my high school randomly enough. they have now come up with supplemental numbers this week. interesting from comparing the poverty numbers, regular calculation and supplemental numbers. first the poverty numbers under the old way of calculating. you have 50.2% poverty rate among african-americans it is 27.5%, really just a stunning number and among hispanics 26.7%. under the new supplemental poverty measure you actually have hispanics are 28.2%, have the highest poverty rate, higher than african-americans. this is the first time we've seen that. we're also seeing, victoria, not coincidentally a pretty steady

erosion of support for president barack obama among latino voters. how do you think -- how do you think the experienced latinos are having of this recession in particular is distinct and how do you think it's affecting the politics as we head into the next election. >> some other numbers i wanted to put forward. >> please do. >> the pew center did a study, latino wealth plummeted 66%. >> in this recession it plummeted 66%. >> in this recession. so the greatest decline of all the groups. also the wealth within the latino community is the most skewed. so going from 56% of the top latino wealth going to 72% being most concentrated. so we're seeing the disappearance of the middle class across the board but especially with latinos. you tend to think of latinos as this immigrant group working their way up to the american dream but that's not happening. we're going from working class to middle class to working class in one generation.

we're not seeing any movement here. we do see a lot of discontent with the president in terms of not just economic policy but also immigration policy. if you remember during his campaign he sat down with jorge ramos he said my first year we'll pass immigration reform. he didn't. lou at these numbers. however, most surprisingly they still support him at about 60%, which is so surprising. a lot of that has to do with they cannot stomach the republican -- >> that's the other side of the coin of the other side of the coin, along with the demographic aspects of the coalition there's a racial aspect to the conservative coalition. karl rove and others have said for years, have you to bring hispanics into the conservative coalition or face demographic doom and yet they constitutionally seem incapable of doing so because it is absolutely required as we've seen in the republican debates to be the most reactionary

anti-immigrant sentiments expressed. >> you get brownie points for this. >> cheers for electric fences. >> herman cain bragging about lec electrifying those fences. we talk about the upward mobility ladder but it's greased with the fire beneath. people are slipping down and burned by seething cal drone of economic devastation, the numbers between black and brown are horrible across the board. >> i think what's interesting from a strategic level this is eating the seed corn for republicans. there was an article the other day how immigration replaced abortion as the litmus test issue. we saw rick perry's slide in the polls started with his sort of humane policy at your university. >> the irony he's seen as the latino friendly candidate. everything in life is relative,

of course. but there are still holdouts in the republican party, the jeb bushes, even newt gingrich, but he keeps quiet, do believe latinos are natural republicans because they are conservatives socially speaking. that is not true. that is conventional wisdom. we have the numbers to prove they are just as socially progressive. >> is that true? i don't think i would have guessed that. >> for example with gay marriage. we see with gay marriage we see they support gay marriage at a right higher. i was surprised. >> lgtb needs to pick up on that. >> coming from where the president came from on immigration issues, he has had the most draconian policy on deportation of all the presidents combined. now, politically it makes no sense. now, finally pulling back. but the question i have for you, is this damage permanent.

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got rick, victoria, liz and michael at the table. liz, you just asked victoria a question about the political impact of the president's deportation policies which have been the -- he has deported more people this administration has deported more people in the past year than any other previous president, if i'm not mistaken. i think up above 450,000, 480,000, around there. and you asked victoria if that was going to hurt him politically, if there was a way to recover from that. >> that's a fantastic question. if i remember close to 70% of the latino electorate supported barack obama. they're a core constituency but what we're seeing are they are supporting him above the general population. i believe there are two reasons.

first, they support his economic policy. latinos was a more active government, want more government enter veng, more stimulation in the government. there's just no option with the republican party. they're going to have to pick the lesser of two evils. is that going to get them to the polls, off your coach and vote? i think part of it is fear. what if we go with the republicans, then, you know, if it's bad now, how is it going to be? and i also think barack obama has a fabulous ground game when it comes to latinos. that's what we'll see in 2012. he'll get in there and mobilize. >> and to the fear question republicans have, there is the sort of caucus, the i don't want to press one for english caucus. here's bill o'reilly channelling a little bit of that sentiment. >> but do you understand -- >> no. >> -- what "the new york times" wants and the far left want? they want to break down the white, christian male power structure, of which you're a

part, so am i, and they want to bring in millions of foreign nationals to basically break down the structure that we have. in that regard, pat buchanan is right. so, i say that you've got to cap it with a number. >> off camera on that set there were actually hundreds of mexican immigrants pounding on the doors of the studio on sixth avenue at fox news. >> did he mean cap in terms of a gun? >> no, no, he did not. >> did i get that right? >> bill, i'm glatd you put us in the end of closet. we want to end white male dominance and power, so do most white guys. because it's ended in devastating cons for most of the nation. that's the big secret. vicious white supremacy, social injustice, economic inequality have been horrible for the nation. and for most white people who are never benefitted from the advantages that have been accumulated in the name of that power. in one way, he's absolutely right. >> victoria, is that your

agenda? >> i'm still taken by the graphic of running across the border. it's like that movie "born in east l.a." with all the mexicans rushing ining across. the irony is mccain four years ago was friend of immigration, comprehensive immigration. >> he put his name on the bill. >> exactly. >> that's what i don't understand to see how they did this 180. the republican party, bush administration, they were under support of comprehensive immigration reform. so we can't say this is something that cannot be achieved because it's only a democratic issue. there can be bipartisan support but the wing of the republican party that is in power now has turned us away from that possibility. >> i think john mccain was far more progressive before he got involved in the presidential race which forced him further to the right. >> we've seen that trajectory among primary candidates. the nature of the conservative base at this moment. the penn state scandal, why do large trusted institutions keep

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broken families. >> good morning from new york, i'm chris hayes here with rick, you may know him as hendrick, his by-line. in the "new yorker" magazine. my wife and i fight over it. >> always get two subscriptions. >> always be closing. victoria visiting scholar at university of texas austin. former brooklyn district attorney congresswoman elizabeth and michael dyson professor at georgetown university in the sociology department. the big story of the week, the thing encapturing the

nation's attention is what's happening at penn state university. penn state has a game today against nebraska. it's the final home game of the season. and there's going to be -- it's going to be a media circus for obvious reasons. the fact pattern briefly, last saturday former assistant football coach jerry sandusky was indicted on 40 counts of sexually assaulting boys as young as 7 years old. the complaint from the grand jury, 23 pages long, incredibly damming document, i should stipulate it is just a grand jury finding, nothing has been proven. it is allegations at this point. but the finding of fact, the most startling finding of fact in the grand jury report, the one most people have been focusing on is an incident in 2002, nine years ago ago graduate assistant coach mike mcqueary goes into the locker room where he allegedly sees sandusky raping a 10-year-old boy in the locker room showers. mcqueary calls his father, he runs out, calls his father. his father tells him to talk to

joe paterno, legendary coach at penn state, most winning -- highest win of any coach in football history. paterno referred the matter to athletic, and their response is to take away sandusky's access to athletic facilities. can no longer come -- tim curley, athletic director, schultz vp of finance were also indicted. one of the most remarkable parts of this story, for perjury and failure to report. and they stepped down from their position. shortly after they were indicted and resigned, penn's then-president graham spanier issued a statement in support of the two school officials. on tuesday coach paterno agreed to retire at the end of the season but a day later amidst the firestorm penn state's trustees fired paterno and president spanier. what followed that night were massive student protests which turned to mayhem in some

instances. i'm curious by getting your reaction to the story as you've watched it unfold. i find it really gripping. i think part. reason i found it gripping is that, first of all, it's upsetting stuff. and it's -- it's hard to conceptualize of this sort of icon being sort close to something that seems so horrific and not having the leadership ability to stop it when his entire career, reputation, is built around leadership, but also this degree to which having worked on a book for the last two years about institutional failure and having spent a lot of time erroring on the catholic church, the similarity to the fact pattern to me have just been -- >> yeah, it's uncanny how closely it mirror what's happened in the catholic church and all the same levels of denial and evasion of responsibility and feeble, absolute minimum attempts to

deal with it. we removed that priest from that parish. >> exactly. >> and the kind of religious, in a sense, the religious awe that surrounds college football at some campuses. >> and this is a program that's supposed to help young men, right? this fastball program. and they're hurting these young boys. they look up to these guys, to these coaches. and michael just brought up the point that many of these children were abused through the second mile program. >> which is a nonprofit, founded by jerry sandusky for at-risk. >> so we're talking about the most vulnerable of the most vulnerable. i mean, it's just disgusting. >> and i was going back through my -- from my notes, john gaugen, catholic priest in boston, his case was the thing that blew open the catholic church scandal, his pattern was to go find single mothers in the parish who had two or three sons and needed help go --

>> that's -- that's just unimaginable in terms of exploitati exploitation. look at the tragedy. those concerned about at-risk youth, who don't turn their backs on them, are the very ones who put them at further risk as a result of, perhaps, i mean in this case, certain sexual predatory behavior. >> i'm a former prosecutor. >> yeah, i'm curious. >> there's no gray here for me. abuse of children is -- i mean, i fought that tooth and nail. we changed the laws, strengthened the laws and -- >> how did you change and strengthen the law? >> for example, in new york state, you could -- you could never take the word of the child alone. you had to have corroboration. it was like a woman in rape. so that -- we changed that law. but whoa also made it easier for children to testify. you can imagine how terrifying it is for a child to go before a grand jury. so, we allowed them to be videotaped and changed the law to allow videotaping and the videotape to be presented to the grand jury. we also passed a law to allow

closed-circuit tv so the child didn't have to sit in the courtroom next to the defendant, which is terrifying. what i'm troubled about is not only how in 2002 they were told about these serious allegations. they meaning paterno, they meaning the school officials, and basically did nothing. one of them said they didn't think it was serious. the other thing that's troubling -- well-being they only took away his keys. they didn't stop his access. he was coming back and back and back. >> with young boys. >> the same thing happened or a similar events happened several years before. >> 1998. >> another grand jury report. that seemed to have been squelched. nothing happened. sandusky resigned. why did he resign? what did people know? a lot of people must have known because you see janitors knew, other people knew, they didn't come forward. there was no -- >> a culture -- >> culture of complicity and no

atmosphere to come forward to protect the institution because the institution is harmed more by the cover-up than -- >> i want to talk about that and i want to talk about the culture of big college sports with my colleague dave, who we have after this break. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

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and as i said, i don't know whether you heard me or not, you know the kids were victims, whatever they want to say, i think we all ought to say a prayer for them. tough life. when people do certain things to you. but anyway, you've been great. really great, all right? >> we love you, joe! >> love you joe! >> former penn state coach

paterno yp speaking on tuesday night, the day before he was fired. our segment producer found statistics that blew my mind about the nature of what football means to penn state which a public institution. joe paterno is a public sector employee. here's a high chart how much money football generates for penn state. 116.2 million total revenue. football is $72.7 million of that. football is 72.7. if is the lion's share of revenue that comes into the school. this is something more than just a cultural institution, it is the financial life blood. to talk about that, dave, sports kor

correspondent for "the nation" magazine and he's been on "up with chris hayes before." good morning. >> good morning. >> you've been following the story and writing about it. how do you think the intersection of what sports means at penn state has sort of interacted with the kind of combustibility of the student body and the actual way the institution behaved in the face of this? >> the pie chart just showed it, chris. it's not just about sports anymore. it's about the way big time football has assumed a role on many college campuses where it acts as an economic life raft. not just for the institution but for the entire region as well. 72 million of 116 million, coming straight from the football program. at two-thirds of major colleagues, actually football is a deficit. it's a weight around the general program. it takes money out of the general fund. but for a small sliver of

schools like the university of texas, penn state, it's a life raft for the school. in some communities like state college, pennsylvania, south bend, indiana, on this list where notre dame is, college station, texas, where texas a&m is, it's actually the economy for the whole community. these were communities that used to be industrial, used to have textiles. instead now everybody makes money either formally or informally off the college program. that breeds a culture of complicity where you have -- you are in the business of defending the football program and in the case of penn state, in the business of nursing the legend of joe paterno. that's the connection between the fury and the rage on campus in defense of paterno, which we look at and we think, my god, this is disgusting and amoral. this is sickening to see people rioting for this man. but for them, this is their economic life, and social life and cultural life, all based around this football team.

>> one of the things i think that's -- my first thought when i saw this was that this is part and parcel of a culture of rule breaking and kind of wink and nod approach to violations of rules that is big time college sports. there's this huge taylor branch story in the atlantic called the cartel or shame of college sports and anyone covering college sports runs up that payments are made under the table, rules are violated as a rule. right, the norm is violation of the rules and people get caught. but you pointed out in one of the things you wrote for "the nation" magazine, joe paterno's program at penn state was the exception to that, right? i mean, this was probably the cleanest program at that level in terms of payments to players and the like in all of big time college sports. >> yeah. there are only two schools in the history of ncaa division i football that have never been formally investigated and one is penn state. when joe paterno took the reins,

many years ago, and i say many years ago we're talking, i think, eisenhower or -- i mean, we're going -- >> lbj. >> lbj. we're going back there. when that happened, joe paterno said at the time, he wanted the school to be what he called a grand experiment, to see if we could play football and not break the rules, because rule-breaking in football -- this is not a modern phenomenon. this goes way back. web dubois was talking about this 70 years ago. he talked about the culture of king football at yale because he noticed that the football budget was seven times that as liberal arts budget. he spoke about -- >> he destroyed it there. >> -- about the future -- yeah, yeah. who knew that would be the high water market of equity, 7 to 1. but dubois saw it then. it exists now. and i think what's happened is that everybody had a vested interest in the legend of joe paterno. go to penn state campus, for

those that haven't been there, and count off the number of buildings named after joe paterno. there is a statue of the man in campus. in an otherwise depressed region of pennsylvania, the area around state college it thrives. >> well, do you see any parallel between overincarceration going on, that local communities are building off of literally on the backs of poor people in general, poor black and brown people more specifically, and the exploitation of these saand the- what's interesting, a lot these kids are not paid who even play for these sports teams, 70 some million dollars and they receive little exceptuition and most of them don't even graduate from the programs for which they serve. what do you think about that parallel? >> i'll take it to another step. go to the former industrial towns and the businesses are the college and hopefully the football program and then the new penetentiary that was bet.

there hasn't been a prison boom in this country and it's coincided with the boom of looking to big state colleges as revenue producers, particular in revenue producing sports as an answer for budget woes. i remember the governor from michigan said that the auto industry in the u.s. has become a health care provider where people happen to make cars. a lot of these big institutions have become football programs where people happen to go to class in between saturday games. >> yeah. >> victoria? >> i want to talk about the culture of big sports at a more microlevel, which is i have been lucky to never have this type of experience but a very dear friend of mine, a professor at a big sports school found that many of her student athletes

were plagiarizing. she went to report it. she went through all of the paces. she kept getting denied. oh, well, just pass them and we'll take care of it on our own terms. on, it's this culture of student athletes, not just coaches, but as above the fray. >> crucially it reports to the reporting i did in the church, it's a private system of law. that's so key. there's essentially a private legal system within the university that keeps things outside of the actual legal system and not allows -- >> we'll take care of our own. >> a culture of impunity which we now see in this country in so many ways. impunity for wall street, impunity for president obama and his ilk and impunity for -- now we see impunity for others. >> that's an excellent segue to a conversation about accountability and impunity when we come back after this break. today, investors want retirement planning on their terms.

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dave zirin, sports correspondent for "the nation" magazine on satellite from washington, d.c., rick from new yorker, victoria, elizabeth and michael eric dyson. a lot of names to get through. dave, you wanted to make a point about this sort of culture of impunity that surrounds and rule breaking that has become so enmeshed in college sports. >> it's rooted in the fact that players don't get paid. they realize they're producing millions if not billions of revenue for the school and don't see a cent for it so it breeds a culture that says, why shouldn't i get free tattoos, why shouldn't i get somebody to plagiarize my tests, why shouldn't i get money under the table in this university is exploiting me terribly. i think that is part of the problem with the ncaa. is that who has the moral high ground at this point? i mean, the ncaa is like tony soprano lecturing about the neighborhood drug dealer, so it doesn't work when you don't have any sort of moral structure that says, this is right, this is

wrong, that anybody can take seriously. >> not only that, but the same people who are lecturing to the extent tony soprano analogy are those making millions of dollars. mike sha shin ski is making millions from nike and lecturing kids about proprietary restraints on how much money you can make. you're making millions telling people who are essentially poor and continue to be poor except for the few who make it to professional sports. that's a damaging imbalance. >> up 750%, inflation adjusted since 1984. >> that's not sponsorship money they get. >> right. during the same time they went up 750% for college football coaches, professors at the same time received a 32% bump in salary. obviously, there's this -- we're dealing in a situation in which the broader context it is a big time sports school, this sort

of -- this is kind of culture that surrounds the football program and the sports program, central to both the economic life blood of the town and the school and the culture and also the -- this sort of identity, right, of the plate. imposing accountability in these conditions in which you have this institutional hierarchy, very hard. here's this video we were watching in the office all week. it's penn state student making a plea against the crowd for joe paterno to be held accountable. here's the tape. >> i'm not saying you have to come out here and point fingers at paterno and say paterno must go and graham spanier must go. i'm saying hold our leaders accountable. as an institution and part of this family we must hold our leaders accountable. the paterno signs, we should get rid of them. i'm sorry. >> i agree. >> boo!

>> wow. penn state student -- yeah, it's a great piece -- >> it's courageous. >> very courageous. >> and also courageous to wear a ton ton to tony dorcettiercy. >> and he gives this speech and someone says, tony went to pitt and everybody boos. wrong choice of jersey. the dynamic, liz, you just talked about this, what are the conditions that you produce in an institution that can buck the kind of intense gravity of complicity, of cover-up, of protecting institution above all else? we have seen e-mails of traders at goalman sanction wldman sach were trading junk, ask those at enron, smuggling money, major

league baseball players would refer to their steroid injections as getting b-12 shots. there becomes a culture around complicity in large institutions that are sort of hire arcually organized. how do you break that down? what is the way to sort of produce a situation where you don't -- where you don't have that? it's a hard question but i'm asking you. >> well, nothing like checks and balances. there's nothing like serious disclosure. i mean, i think what's going to happen -- what's happened at penn will have a major impact on other institutions. we won't have cover-ups like this quite so much. >> i would have said that about the catholic church, though. after -- >> i understand that but the catholic church is one thing and sports is something else. maybe sports stands on a higher pedestal in this country than church. >> wow. paterno above the pope. >> yeah. but now we finally have a situation in which that statue is coming down, whether it's come down literally or figuratively. he's no longer the hero that he can be. i think that's part of the

reason people got so upset because their image of themselves is tied into how the university does in terms of sports. that's a whole different story. but i think that there needs to be -- what the board of trustees did was absolutely right. now there has to be a full investigation, which is also right. steps have to be taken, people's pensions, people's compensation, and criminal accountability and lawsuits now. civil suits. so it's going to be uncovered. >> the checks and balances, look, let's be honest. the checks have been written and balances are been checked. that's the checks and balances going on in big sports as appear dave said, these kidsen be compensated is one of the most sure indexes of the incredible inequality that exists where even thes on sentencible purpose of the educational institution which is to educate students so they become full-fledged members of society is lost in most big college sports, a lot don't graduate. look at the percentage rate of those that participate in sports

who are distracted from educational goals and used full time workers for this employment structure called big time sports and don't get paid. incredibly unequal. >> we were talking about this during break. we see an escalate in punitive measures toward those who are convicted of molesting and raping children, but then how do we actually get them to identify themselves? so, i'm hopeful here that here we're going to think as a society more broadly about how do we make those people accountable, so if this 28-year-old assistant coach, is he accountable for not reporting? joe paterno? getting more equity between punitive measures legally speaking and how you get them to come up to court. >> dave is sports correspondent for "the nation", great writer. thanks for joining us. appreciate it. >> my privilege, chris. >> i want to talk more about the penn state and sexual assault, how we deal with it as a society. autil ir

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we're talking about penn state and the fallout from the scandal there. we're talking about cultures of complicity, institutional corruption, accountability, some of the things we've been touching on and how you produce a situation where you have -- you have accountability within an institution. i want to read. in is a piece from -- just published, i think, tim carney, just sent to me during the break. it's called penn state, my final loss of faith in "the washington post" today. i'm 31, iraq war veteran, penn state graduate, catholic, acquaintance of jerry sandusky and product of his second mile and i have fully lost faith in my parents' leadership. >> it's an intense, blanket feeling of sort of this crisis, crisis of authority in the country that i think is one of

the defining themes. something i'm writing a book about. one of the things i want to talk about is the -- is the taboo of sexual predation on children and the way we deal or don't deal with it. one thing we've seen is how could they not report. how could they not report. well, we have reporting laws when this is not an anollie. this is the norm. the reason reporting laws exist is precisely because reports of sexual assault and sexual assault on children for years, the norm was that they were -- whatever the institution was, they were not brought to the police. liz, i think you probably dealt with this as a district attorney. what is it -- why does it have to be the case that you need to pass a law to make people report this kind of thing. >> the institutions want to protect themselves because they think wrongly that if they expose the damage or they expose

that somebody did something wrong, the world will fall down on their heads. actually, it's much, much worse if they cover up and protect. don't disdisclose. i don't know how you change that. you have to go and hit really hard and enforce really hard when it comes to light. my question here, and i -- having read that grand jury report, what totally astonishes me is in 1998 there was an investigation involving again a kid from this program, taken into the shower. there was a conversation that was reported by both the detective and mother with sandusky. he said, i did something wrong. and i feel like i want to die. well, that just went nowhere. why didn't the school immediately do something? i'm not saying only to sandusky but to make sure those showers were not available for sexually molesting children or other misconduct? all kinds of steps that could have been taken. both with regard to sandusky and with regard to the protection of

students, young people. they ignored it. so, i think there really needs to be a lot -- these investigations are going to uncover a lot and that may send a warning signal. if you don't take those actions, you know for sure it's going to be repeated. >> rick? >> well, it seems to me this is a sickness, the people that do the kind of things sandusky did. the danger of saying that it seems like you're trivializing what happens to the victims. but i don't really think it is. there's a case recently where somebody was sentenced to life imprisonment for possessing child pornography. he hadn't done anything except download this stuff and find it exciting. that's all that he had done. he's being sent to jail, life without parole. simply expressing our condemnation of the horribleness of these acts from the point of view of humanity as well as the child, only gets us so far. >> that's right.

we have -- i just want to say we have this sort of -- there is this sort of ratcheting up, there's a politics of registries for sex offenders and megan's law and nothing is more popular in a legislator than to pass bills, to come down like a ton of bricks on people once they have been convicted but you should know there's a pennsylvania law that has a bill pending that anyone that's witnessed sexual abuse of a child to report it to police rather than those in command. the chief assembly refuses to hold a hearing. we called and asked for a statement while he holds the bill hostage and he never reported back. >> i think rick's point is delicate and necessary here. the talk about pathology and stigmaization of those predators. we should stigmatize them but the way in which we should address them is to talk about the illness that so many people have that feeds it rather than punitive measures of

incarceration. we see the same thing going on. it's a risky parallel between what happens with those who abuse meth, although medicalized because they happen to be wide kids, suburbia and the like, versus those who deal with drugs thrown into jail. i'm not suggesting predators shouldn't be -- we should figure out the root -- >> let me say this in terms of the pathologizatiopathologizati. one thing that struck me in the time that i've done reporting of survivors in the catholic church, great group called snap. is the fact that there is the -- the pathologies are very real. repeat offense is the rule. that is precisely why reporting and accountability in institutional mechanisms that produce that are just so important. because -- >> really, really early -- >> but to make this actually effective, if it goes on for years and years, so in those kind of institutions where this -- there's this particular

type of institution that seems to nurture and attract this kind of predator who's not inclined toward criminality in any other -- >> but to scapegoat the person rather than the institutional mechanisms that produce it. in other words, the cover up, complicity, silence, refusal. here you are witnessing a coach doing something wrong, predatorily to a kid and you report it as opposed to stop it? >> that's a great segue to this piece of tape. mike mcqueary, the one who walked in on the alleged rape of a 10-year-old boy. i think it's the most upsetting point in the thing. there's been a lot of -- of understandably denunciations of mcqueary. football player john ritchie who grew up in pennsylvania, knew jerry sandusky from being coached by him, recruited at penn state by him. he played at stanford. he view jersey sandusky like st.

theresa. that's how he viewed him. here's him very honestly talking about what he would have done had he found himself in that shower at that moment. john richie right here. >> i can't imagine seeing what he saw. when i try to put myself in that position and conceptualize my defensive coordinator, jerry sandusky doing what he is aalleged to have done in that shower to that little boy, that victim, at that point in time, my mind would be gone. i would flee. i would run. i would try to grasp exactly what i had seen. my world would be turned upside down. >> you know, chris, we've seen this serial number of accusations here but what i think happening is that people who witness this, janitors or assistant coaches, is they took it and in their mind they said, this is an isolated incident.

this isn't a pattern. i'm going to keep my head down and i'm not going to rock the boat. so what i think happened here is that you had all of these people seeing the same thing, but not wanting to talk to each other in order to bring down this paradigm, this institution. >> but look at what -- and look at the kind of trust that is granted these people. living -- >> with your children. you're trusting your children literally. >> exactly right. but i'm saying that it's an anomaly to you because you don't think a guy like jerry sandusky looking like that could do that kind of thing. >> that's why you can deny it. >> exactly. >> they also did the minimum. i mean, they -- >> right. >> they told the person above them in the chain and then that person told the person above and above, above. >> the buck never stopped. >> but the point is who is above jerry paterno at that -- >> joe paterno. >> joe paterno at penn state? nobody. so, if he wanted the guy to go, he would have gone. but i think the problem with the janitor, you raise an important point, is they were afraid of losing their jobs. we don't have strong enough

whistle-blower laws, too. that's another thing. we have encourage people that saw it. january tors weren't the only one, the guy in the shower, plenty of other people must are known because the allegation is that sandusky was taking children constantly into the showers. >> i got my hands on a great book by a.l. press about people that sort of dissent from institutional corruption and institutions that are doing the wrong thing and stand up and do the right thing. it's a character study and what are the personalty traits and institutional conditions that produce that. and we'll have a.l. on when that book comes out. what do we know now we didn't know last week? my answers after this. [ female announcer ] anyone can say their hair color is less damaging.

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another 40,000 just to credit unions alone last saturday. i want to do a quick correction on something we said earlier in this program. we talked about the revenue of penn state and the percentage of that revenue accounted for by football. we were wrong about the category. $116 million, i believe, we'll check this again and put it on the website, come back tomorrow and confirm it but since i'm on air now i want to be -- correct our error. the $116 million athletic department, $72 million comes from the football program. the total revenue of penn state university is much, much, much larger than that. it has a huge medical facility. we'll get the numbers right. in just a second, i'll tell you what i didn't know when the week began. it's time for a preview of "weekends with alex witt." >> coming up at 9:00 we'll take you live to penn state against the backdrop of scandal. a football game will be played and new twists in the sex abuse

investigation. also fresh legal questions being raised. it is a three-way race, at least that's what new polls are suggesting. how much longer will it take for the gop field to sort itself out? we'll have informed opinions on that. and nbc's tom brokaw, we'll talk to him about one of the most memorable moments in political debate history. he played a big role. and i talked to him about his new book as well. it's a great conversation, chris. i hope you'll watch that. >> definitely will. thanks. so, what do we know now we didn't know last week? we know the institutional pathologies, lack of accountability, bureaucratic buck passing in disregard for moral responsibility to protect children are not limited to the catholic church. we know cultures that nurture a shared sense of people that run the institution are more important than anything else in the world are petri dishes for corruption and evil. after karl rove's gps came out with an ad at elizabeth warren we know the blue-ocracy is out

to get the. we know rick per have i not a very good debater. we also know more disturbingly the republican candidates seem to be engaged in a bidding war over who wants to get rid of the most federal agencies without a particularly specific case for why they want to do it. we now know several years into an extended crisis of authority students are beginning to actively fight back and occupy campus protests across the country. so maybe we will soon have an answer to a question i've heard from so many people of my parents generation, why aren't you in the streets? we now know berlusconi, prime minister italy, is stepping down as prime minister. we know that though there is extremely stiff competition, he may just be the single worst, most corrupt western leader of his generation. we also now know the story of berlusconi, italy's wealthiest man, and most powerful media owner, retaining control of the state for most of the last decade, is a chilling fable

about the end result of extreme inequality. state wide poll, we now know the much maligned voters of arizona actually support a path of legalization for the country's undocumented immigrants. according to the poll, even 69% of republicans support so-called earned legalization if a number of conditions are met. we don't know if our political culture is able to nurture our basic sensible decency into humane policy. with new data out from realty track we know u.s. foreclosure activity hit a seven-month high in october. up 7% from the previous month. we also know that our political system continues to be shamefully incapable in taking necessary steps to rectify the situation by imposing some form of debt principle forgiveness. finally, we now know there is no issue too small or too stupid for conservatives to fire up the outrage machine over. a promotional program for christmas trees created by the christmas tree industry and the department of agriculture was

put on hold when conservatives such as the heritage foundation as david addington attacked revenue mechanism for funning the program as a, quote, christmas tree tax. you'll remember he was dick cheney's chief of staff, a position he used to repeatedly and forcefully argue for legal spying on americans and torture of detainees. we know that for addington, his job at heritage is a far less place than sitting before an international criminal court would be. that would be a christmas present worth paying a tax for. what do my guests know? [ sponge ] the prognosis is bleak. you may need to soak overnight.

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find out what my guests know now. i'll play you the president united states. i want make sure people see the president reacting to what's going on at penn state. >> i think it's a good time for the entire country to do some soul searching. not just penn state. we care about sports. you know, it's important to us.

but our number one priority has to be protecting our kids. >> president obama reacting to the scandal at penn state. rick, what do you know now you diplomat know at the beginning of the week? >> while everybody's happy to blow the whistle on rick perry for having a senior moment, i'll still waiting for the rest of the republican candidates to blow the whistle on him for wanting to abolish a cabinet department established by theodore roosevelt that includes the weather bureau and the patent office. two rather nonwasteful functions of government. >> the commerce department. >> yes. >> the patent office seems like an important thing. >> yes. that's been around a while, too. >> for american capitalism particularly. victoria, what do you now know you didn't know at the beginning of the week? >> earlier this week a poll on latino decisions was released. here i thought the trend of latino becoming more socially progressive was starting but it blew up in my face when i saw that in the 18 to 35 demographic

close to 70% of latino support gay marriage. not just civil unions but gay marriage. i think this is interesting for potential coalitions between lgbt and latinos going to future elections. >> we talked earlier in the show, you referred to the poll, the numbers for latinos overall across all age demographics you said support for gay marriage is larger in this poll than general public, which defy a lot of conventional wisdom. elizabeth, what do you now know? >> well, that some of the same problems with regard to false statements leading us into the iraq war are still with us. the u.n. report on the -- the u.n. recent report on iran and it's possible making of nuclear weapons relies on some information that's highly questionable. now christian science monitor reported that this so-called

russian scientist -- >> who is the source for -- >> right. has been teaching iranians how to build nuclear weapons apparently is in the business of nano diamond making, which is it ity bitty diamond which you make with explosives so this mysterious than may be for making nano diamonds. >> so it's possible it's not related to making nuclear weapons? >> it's possible. >> mike, what do you now know you didn't know at the beginning of the week? >> herman cain may or may not be guilty of the charges of sexual harassment that have been powerfully levied against him but we know it's grossly insensitive about making a joke about anita hill. this shows the egregious, outrageous insensitive toward the issues of women more broadly that ought to concern not only the republican party but all of america. >> my thanks to rick of the new yorker magazine, victoria from

university of texas austin, former brooklyn district attorney elizabeth and msnbc political analyst michael dyson. you were great. thank you for joining us. coming up next is "weekends with alex witt" and join us sunday morning at 8 a.m. while i have msnbc's martin bashir and gop presidential candidate and former new mexico governor gary johnson on set for the full two hours. we'll also talk to actor mark rou. are you uffalo and you can find us on facebook at up with chris. see you tomorrow. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪

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