police calling them a fire hazard. much more on that coming up ahead on morning joe. want to hear your e-mails. john tower, what are they saying sm. >> willie, i late toronto race. i'm awake because because a racs occupying my attic just above my bed every night for the past week. >> we get a lot of those. ra racoons and other varmints waking people up to watch the show. i thank the varmint community. >> matthew on twitter writes darned treadmill tv is stuck on this station. >> that is a first i think. the treadmill tv is stuck on msnbc. people do not have a choice quite literally but to watch this show. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ i got a song i ain't got no melody ♪ >> so you agreed with president obama on libya or not? >> okay. libya.

president obama supported the uprising. correct? president obama called for the removal of gadhafi. just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing before i say yes i agree or no i didn't agree. i do not agree with the way he handled it for the following reason. no, that's a different line. i got to go back and see. got all this stuff twirling around in my head. i would have done a better job of determining who the opposition is and i'm sure that our intelligence people had

that -- had some of that information. based upon who made up that opposition, okay, based on who made up that opposition, might have caused me to make some different decisions about how we participated. >> that's not possible. >> wow. >> good morning, everyone. that's not possible that you could disagree with what joe is saying right now. it's just not possible. >> it is possible. >> it's tuesday, november 15th. i think better of people. i'm sorry that you don't. with us onset, msnbc and "time" magazine's senior political analyst mark halperin who doesn't think much of people and msnbc analyst and visiting professor at nyu former democratic congressman harold ford jr. >> mika, what do you think? >> it's just got to be over, right? what is wrong with people? >> if that doesn't get you, him coming out in support of collective bargaining the same -- >> he didn't know china had nuclear weapons and that didn't do it. why is this so much worse?

>> think about that. willie, what do you think? you've played the video. >> what did george w. bush famously say? fool me once shame on you. fool me again -- we won't get fooled again. he's done this enough times now where it starts to accumulate. you can't say he didn't have enough sleep. you can't say he was caught by surprise. you can't say it was a got you question. you have to know this. >> the thing is, when i started criticizing herman cain early on of course all the right wing bloggers attacked me. >> yeah. >> not all of them. not eric erickson but most of them. and there has been -- and the reason cain is getting away with this, oh, it's just the liberal media, the rhinos, defined as people that tell the truth these days i guess. but now we saw eric erickson's review this weekend. said that his debate performance was horrific. michelle malkin now is talking about how bad this is getting. i was embarrassed about this weeks ago. i was embarrassed that herman

cain was a standard bearer for the republican party. that man that can't answer a basic question about foreign policy, standard bearer for my party and that embarrassed me. a couple weeks ago it didn't embarrass a lot of people when they should have been embarrassed. guess what? i think they're embarrassed now. >> they have to be. >> but you don't think so, mark. >> it's a flawed field. i mean, this is a big flaw and uncomfortable and embarrassing to the party to have somebody not only have the answers to questions but to say -- >> what about uz-beki-stan-stan? it's being brought up overseas by foreign leaders. >> right but he is running against newt gingrich and rick perry and mitt romney. >> okay. all right. >> and ron paul. >> the problem here is he didn't even seem to have an opinion about libya so he might have had a brain freeze about what happened in libya and then not to have any opinion about even the president's overall stance in the middle east, he couldn't have come up with a response that might have even spoken to

kind of america's attitude as a result of president obama's i think stellar leadership, whatever people want to say about the domestic policy issues. i think this president has probably surprised some people and has certainly excelled in the foreign policy arena. for herman cain, the front runner on the republican side not to even have an opinion about just the overall foreign policy approach. >> and everything, everything, even domestically, mika. he doesn't get it. >> we have a sound bite on collective bargaining where he is asked about that. i don't think he does too well on -- >> well all republicans in this field are against collective bargaining, right? >> alex, do you have that first bite all over again? i just -- you had said a few weeks ago -- just listen to me -- that this guy is making it up as he goes along. >> yes i did. >> and it literally looks -- you can watch him get ready to make it up as he's going along and for nothing to come out. >> mika, i don't need to underline this but you have been sit hearing for four years as i have said things about republicans.

>> yeah. >> and then i have been barbed barbed -- bashed by the far right for telling the truth about weak republican candidates and then what i say happens. this happens so much, so much, that i'm just getting really tired of it. four years later my conservative credentials being questioned because i tell the truth about somebody before the rest of the world tells the truth about somebody. it's like looking at a sprinter that runs an 8:7:40 and say he may not be fast enough to win the olympics. why do you hate him? what's wrong with you? why? why, you aren't a true believer! he comes from your village! how could you not support your village for he may win running an 8.7. you have gone some -- you have moved out of your village and now you have changed. you have changed. >> that's a variation on your

jesse ventura. >> no. it's good. >> because i'm a vill ager i'm supposed to look at the guy running at 8.7:40 going you know he could win the olympics in a couple of years. seriously. >> we don't have to watch the whole thing. >> he's not up to the task. >> no. >> it has nothing to do with ideology. just like michele bachmann is not up to the task of being president of the united states. just like i said from the very beginning. rick perry is not up to the task of being president of the united states. it has nothing to do with ideology. it has everything to do with whether you would trust them not to run the united states of america but a slurpee stand in your hometown. >> you know what compounds the hilarity for insiders? >> what is that? >> the guy did this at an ed board in milwaukee. >> why is he not in des moines? >> right. >> why is he not in nashville? why is he not in manchester? he's selling books just like

newt gingrich is selling books. now gingrich is moving forward. gingrich actually knows what he's talking about. >> right. wake me up. >> they're both selling books. >> how do you -- mark raises this point -- how do you reconcile the numbers, the standing he still has in the polls? you see it continuing to drop but he seems to maintain some core support. >> michele bachmann dropped. >> it's not ideological. we want a real candidate on the republican side who can really help boost the national conversation. again, the man couldn't answer a question. >> i don't mean to go at you on this but i'm going to go at you on this. we can go back and pull tape of what you said after the iowa straw polls. when i said, michele bachmann is going down, this is a joke of a candidacy. she will not survive. i can get quotes from main street media outlets across america saying michele bachmann can do it. i can do the same thing with rick perry where i say rick perry is a joke and a lot of people say he's the guy that's

going to do it. now you're saying the same thing with herman cain. i'm telling you, he's not going to do it just like i told you about perry and sarah palin a year ago. >> outside of new hampshire what is mitt romney sealing? probably about 35% in any given state. maybe a little higher in some states. that leaves, you know, 60% of the vote, 65% of the vote. it must go to someone. i'm no math genius. >> not herman cain. >> got to go to somebody. >> we've got to get to penn state, and zuccotti park and there is breaking news there. let's give you one more chance. this man answering the question on libya and you tell me if we should even continue the conversation. >> that's a different question. >> and now collective bargaining. >> you want to do collective bargaining? >> okay. can you get that ready, alex? >> would you favor collective bargaining for police? >> they already have it don't they?

>> no they don't. >> they have unions. >> but they don't have the same bargaining. >> they don't have the same bargaining powers. here again, collective bargaining i support as long as it doesn't create an undue burden on the state, the government, the taxpayer, and this sort of thing. that's the issue. >> that is the issue. >> enough. >> come on. come on. >> enough. >> to your point, he is in wisconsin where this debate commenced and gained the fuel it has gained over the last several months. to not know that answer is remarkable and stunningly telling. >> people that are supporting the recall of scott walker will, i think -- willie, they will be pleased to know herman cain supports them on collective bargaining. he is on their side when it comes to collective bargaining. >> these are core issues that should be on the tip of your tongue when you're asked. >> running for president. >> if you're selling books it's

cool. >> there is -- we have a new cnn poll that shows in just one month now herman cain down 11 points. >> wow. >> so i think this is it right here. >> thank you. >> it shows gingrich bouncing 14 points in one month and herman cain now down 11 points. this is a national poll of course. >> look at those top two people, mika. i know newt gingrich has compared santa claus to stalin as well as everybody else. >> right. >> but the fact of the matter is that newt gingrich is well versed on the issues, whether you agree with him or not, whether you think he's a demagogue or not, whether you agree with his idiosyncrasy lod -- ideology or not. he was actually speaker of the house, third in line for four years, and is competent. and so is -- >> i have to concede that. >> so is romney. >> yeah, yeah. >> so that poll makes a little more sense than a lot of polls we've been seeing. but, yeah, willie, that's a precipitous drop by cain.

and newt is skyrocketing. >> we've been asking for some time, when does the bubble burst? looks like it's beginning to burst. mark? >> stop. >> 65% of the vote must go somewhere. and the other thing is, you know, look at these polls, take in the margin of error. they're still separating fifth from first like 14 points. you can swing 14 points in this environment in a day. >> you really do think that the fat guy who runs an 8.7:40 could win the olympics, could win the gold. >> you don't think people are smart do you? >> no. i think they're genius. but he could end up as the alternative to romney assuming there is one. >> you think huntsman still has any upward movement potential, move from 1% to 3% in this last vote. >> national polls don't matter. just new hampshire. he's not moved -- his super pac went on tv yesterday with an ad that alludes to mitt romney as a

flip flopper but doesn't name him. until that super pac puts money buying tv ads that go after romney directly i don't think so. >> i think huntsman could at least come in second place in new hampshire. >> i think there is room -- >> 75% of the field, harold, you've seen these elections. 75% of the field undecided. 75% all over america for republicans. even in that poll. this is the softest i've ever seen the poll. six weeks before the presidential primary commences, and i think in new hampshire at least huntsman can do well. >> those are the people who would vote -- >> that's definitely built for him to have -- good lord. >> how are you doing? >> not good. how are you? >> doing okay? >> i'm not good. >> i'm doing fine except for the fact that my vill agers think i'm a trader. >> you're not a traitor. you have actually spoken the truth. >> he's probably not going to win the 100 meters at the olympics.

>> these people keep -- i'm sorry. >> he weighs 322 pounds. this has to do with political -- >> all right. >> athletes. who is and who is not. >> we do need to cover what is going on. they want to clean the park you know. >> they cleared 200 protesters earlier. willie was actually on the scene down there. >> oh, how did it go, willie? >> at least he started his show earlier than we did so they cleared 200 protesters out and what was bloomberg's rationale? >> they staged a couple hours before hand about 1:00 in the morning. the police came in early this morning around 2:00, 3:00 and swept out the park. they did it, we had a reporter on the ground there who said the confrontations were peaceful for the most part, that the protesters behaved themselves, and that police did, too, by and large. taking them out and telling them, giving them notice saying we have to clean the park. you may come back here but you have to leave behind your sleeping bags and tents. this is not going to become a permanent settlement. you can come protest here but you may not sleep and live here. >> there were some reporters complaining that they've been pushed away from the scene.

the police set up barricades, didn't allow people to go within two blocks after they cleaned up the park. about 100 people left peacefully. another 100 went to the center in an area they call i guess the kitchen and chained themselves up. there were some altercations, but for the most part -- for the most part both sides acted peacefully. >> all right. we'll watch that and see what happens there. >> see what happens. >> we had the mayor on recently. >> and see also, mika, if they do go back to the park. right. >> after they clean it out. >> i think they said they're going to march at broadway to central park and spend some time there. the helicopter -- i could hear the helicopters outside my apartment this morning over near broadway as they were sort of in the downtown area. >> i bet they set up a perimeter and don't let people back in with equipment. >> okay. >> let them come back in to protest but not -- >> no sleeping bags no tents. >> what are we doing this weekend, willie? >> okay. >> where are we going to go this weekend? >> central park. >> we've been spending the

weekends down there. >> all right. i'm going to get to penn state. you're wasting time with things that aren't true. new allegations in the penn state child sexual abuse scandal. the "new york times" says up to ten additional people claim to have been sexually abused by former assistant coach jerry sandusky. that's in addition to the eight young boys he's already been charged with abusing. police are working to confirm the new accusations. sandusky is denying the allegations, defending himself last night on nbc's "rock center." >> there are multiple accusers, multiple eyewitnesses to various aspects of the abuse. a reasonable person says where there's this much smoke there must be plenty of fire. what do you say? >> i say that i am innocent of those charges. >> innocent? completely innocent and falsely accused in every aspect? >> well, i could say that, you know, i have done some of those

things. i have horsed around with kids. i have showered after workouts. i have hugged them and i've -- i have touched their leg without intent of sexual contact but -- so if you look at it that way, there are things that wouldn't, you know, would be accurate. >> what did happen in the shower the night that mike mcqueary happened upon you and the young boy? >> okay. we were showering and horsing around and he actually turned all of the showers on and was actually sliding across the floor and we were -- as i recall possibly like snapping a towel or horse play. >> how would you define the part you played? what are you willing to concede

that you've done that was wrong and you wish you had not done it? >> i shouldn't have showered with those kids, you know. >> that's it? >> yeah. i mean, that's what hits me the most. >> are you a pedophile? >> no. >> are you sexually attracted to young boys, to underage boys? >> am i sexually attracted to underage boys? >> yes. >> sexually attracted? you know, i -- i enjoy young people. i love to be around them. i -- but no. i'm not sexually attracted to young boys. >> he had to think about that, willie. >> yeah he did. >> when he was asked. >> that was painful to listen to. >> that was. i don't know what value that adds to anything to be honest with you.

>> he had nothing to lose doing that interview. i doubt he'll testify in a trial if he makes it to a trial. but it's obvious he has -- something is wrong there. >> come on. yeah. >> hard to listen. >> what doesn't add up is the graduate assistant in 2002, mike mcqueary, how could he have mistaken, quote, horse play for the rape of a child? >> raping a kid, yeah. >> that's a question that has to be answered. by the way, we got an nbc exclusive, peter alexander got an e-mail mcqueary sent to some friends, a lot of people asking why didn't you personally do something when you saw that. he wrote to a friend from mcqueary, i did the right thing. you guys know me. the truth is not out there fully. i did not just turn and run. i made sure it stopped. that is something he wrote to one of his friends that peter on nbc news obtained and we'll get more details going forward. >> he made sure it stopped. what did he do, castrate him? >> that particular instance he says he made stop. >> i'm telling you, i will say this again. they need to shut this program

down for a year. there was such abuse from the top to the bottom they need to shut -- a program that i have loved my entire life, a coach, joe paterno i have loved and respected my entire life, i really do. remember i came back from penn state talking about how much i loved that place and i love those people and i'd even love to send my kids there. i would never send my kid to penn state unless they turned the lights off that football program for one year to send a message that the same university and the same athletic department and the same football program that valued powerful football coaches over the safety and protection of young children have learned their lesson. so much so that they were willing to put that football team that allowed this abuse to continue on the sidelines for

one year. if they don't do it, what parent outside of pennsylvania would ever send their kids to this college? >> i think the ncaa has an opportunity to put some pressure on penn state, too. if penn state won't do it the ncaa has shut down programs because guys are driving expensive cars or a kid from vanderbilt's basketball team suspended for a couple games because he got a meal from some guy who happened to have gone to vanderbilt. if you want to be serious, we're not talking about some breach of ncaa violations. this is child rape. take it seriously. if penn state won't, the ncaa ought to. >> if ohio state gets abused by the ncaa the way they did because some guys got tatoos, some adults got tatoos on their back and gave away their jerseys, the ncaa is not going to step in and shut down a

program that systematically allowed the abuse of young, under privileged children? >> as you said, it's a disgrace if the ncaa has to do it. the school should do it. the state should do it. >> the school should do it and the state should do it and if they don't do it, it shows they are still blinded by a game that kids play. >> and owned by it. >> and owned by it. i say this, mika, as you know, not as a guy that has contempt for penn state but for a guy who has always loved penn state and the morning they shut that program down for a year, i will be the first to say, we are penn state and i'll be proud of them for turning their backs on just a -- an absolutely despicable era. >> if it is beholden to the program and has nothing more to offer penn state doesn't know who it is. they've got other things to offer. they need to shut this down. clearly. >> yes. coming up we'll bring in illinois governor pat quinn, new

york mayor cory booker, howard dean, we'll talk to bob costas about his exclusive interview with jerry sandusky. when we come back the top stories in the politico playbook including nancy pelosi's mission to win back the house. also gabby gifford is in the news. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. wanna know the difference between a trader and an elite trader? it's this... the etrade pro platform. finds top performing stocks -- in three clicks. quickly scans the market for new trading ideas. got it? get it. good. introducing new etrade pro elite.

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they are cleaning it up. and the mayor's now taking full responsibility for this decision. we'll follow the story. time now to take a look at the morning papers. we'll start with" the boston globe" and the supreme court says it will consider a challenge to president obama's national health care law, a move that could salvage or doom his signature domestic initiative just months before voters go to the polls. the court scheduled five and a half hours of oral arguments instead of the usual one signaling the importance of the case. >> "the wall street journal" says warren buffet who famously avoided technology stocks in the past has disclosed the purchase of 64 million shares of ibm at a price of more than $10 billion. buffet said he admires ibm in part because of its five-year road map and its record of meeting long-term goals. >> the "new york times" says an old rival pays his last respects. muhammad ali was among those who attended the funeral of former heavyweight boxing champion joe frazier yesterday in philadelphia where reverend jesse jackson gave the eulogy.

>> great photograph. to our parade of papers "the dallas morning news" says king abdul of jordan is turning up the pressure on syria and becomes the first arab leader to urge president asad to step down. >> and those hoping to force republican scott walk near a recall election next year are angry over his move last spring that effectively ended collective bargaining rights for most public workers. they are hoping to build on momentum from ohio voters who rejected a similar law last week. that's a quick look at the papers. let's move on to politico with willie. >> with us now the chief white house correspondent for politico mike allen with a look at his world famous playbook. you have a story about nancy pelosi making a strong push to win back the house. you say pelosi is planning a comeback. what is she up to? >> yes. could there be a restoration? nancy pelosi remains by far the democratic party's biggest

fundraiser aside from barack obama even though she left the speaker's chair under very unpleasant circumstances. people wondered, would she stay? would she go? she has retained an amazing hold on the party throughout the country. very strong. has raised $26 million so far this cycle, and if democrats are able to take back the house she'll be a big reason for it. politico's john bresnahan talked with her about her fund raising. she said it's rewarding for me and profitable for democrats. the house democratic whip steny hoyer on a recent conference call when she was hitting him up for money said, nancy, you're an expensive date. >> she has earned 26 million bucks so far this cycle for the d triple c. how likely is it, this comeback? democrats need to pick up 25 seats in the house to win it back. >> yeah. there's going to be a hundred seats in play so it definitely could happen. i think the chances are under estimated around here.

when you have a hundred seats and the kind of volatile environment that you have here, 25 is not as many as it sounds. nobody expects it or predicts it, but very possible. >> all right. your next story very interesting. a bicycle ride that could perhaps save the super committee. tell us about it. >> this is juicy. so playbook is everywhere. and a playbooker spotted, on saturday, taking an hour-long bike ride along the potomac. democratic senator john kerry, republican senator rob portman of ohio, two super committee members and they had a third wheel, the midwife, the broker. mark warner, senator of virginia who has been trying to bring the parties together to do some big deficit reduction deal, was with them. so they weren't talking business on their bike ride. we're told all three of them are very competitive. they all raced each other. but that back channel, that side communications within the super

committee, will be very important. if they make a deal this will be part of the reason why. >> this is the kind of color we've come to expect from game change authors. long bicycle rides determining the fate of the country. mike allen thanks so much for a look inside the playbook. appreciate it. coming up, ten months after the shooting that almost took her life gabby giffords talks about her recovery and the possibility of returning to congress. we'll be right back. ♪ [ female announcer ] give a little cheer to a family of a soldier. just cut out the cheer from your specially marked box of cheerios, write your message, and we'll see that they get it.

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is there a word for mark? what is the first word you think of? >> brave. >> thank you. >> brave. brave. >> that's what i think of when i think of you, too. >> thank you. >> brave and tough. >> tough as nails. >> tough as nails. >> wow. arizona congresswoman gabrielle giffords shot down for her first interview since being shot at point blank range in the head earlier this year, an event that left six people dead including a member of her staff. giffords and her husband, retired astronaut mark kelly, talked about what her life is like now and their feelings about a day that changed their world forever. >> how do you feel?

>> pretty good. pretty good. >> i can see that your arm, your right hand, you move a lot more. >> yes. >> is it painful? is it hard? >> no, difficult. >> just difficult. >> difficult. difficult. >> you do a lot of therapy every day. >> yeah. how many hours? >> two hours of therapy. >> yeah. here at the house. >> it was obvious that he had serious mental issues. if he would have received some treatment, this probably would not have happened. >> do you ever get angry at what happened to you? >> no. no. no. no. life. life. >> giffords, who has missed about 98% of the votes in congress in the ten months following the shooting also spoke about her future in washington. >> today does she really think she can go back to washington? >> no -- better. >> it's better?

>> um i -- oh -- >> she wants to get better. >> better. >> you want to get better. >> better. >> and so you think to yourself i'll go back to congress if i get better? >> yes, yes, yes. >> giffords and kelly speak about their road to recovery in the new book "gabby, a story of courage and hope" which is out today. >> i don't know if, mark, she qualifies because of when this happened last year, but as you all, your colleagues, particularly your senior colleague, rick, as you think of a person of the year you got to put her near the top of the list for consideration for that. >> no question. >> that was incredible. >> no doubt about it. >> to not harbor any anger, i mean, just -- amazing. >> she is, really -- >> prayers go out to her. >> such an impressive person. >> yes. >> all right.

well, that was amazing. let's turn now to sports, which i'm assuming is not so amazing. >> it is amazing. no, it is amazing. >> what do you got? >> the packers are 9-0. >> keep things in perspective. >> that's really -- i tried my best. let's see. >> let's just not -- >> check with terry -- there is nothing that matches up to that. >> nothing even close. we'll show it anyway. green bay packers are undefeated playing at home against minnesota last night. lambeau field decided this one. didn't take the packers long to score their first points. this is their first touch of the game on a punt return. this is the rookie randall cobb out of kentucky. 80 yards for the score. green bay out to a 7-0 lead. meanwhile, aaron rogers just playing pitch and catch with his buddies. he threw four touchdown passes including one in the first quarter to greg jennings here. 250 yards, four tds, no interceptions for rogers. packers beat up on the vikings,

45-7. >> how good are the packers? >> best team in football without question. >> i know they're 9-0. anybody in the nfc close to them. >> the 49ers are 8-1 but you still have to like the packers especially if they're playing in january at lambeau. >> anybody matches up? >> maybe the afc you may have -- i don't think anybody matches the green bay -- pittsburgh's got a claim, but -- >> bears look good. the lions are fading a little bit. i still don't think anybody -- >> can't count the giants totally out but the packers look good. >> they're the heavy favorite. >> if rogers is healthy i can't see anybody beating them. >> you're right. >> negotiations between owners and nba players union to salvage the season. look to a -- don't bother. >> players moving to disband the union so they can take their case to court now pushing an anti-trust lawsuit against the league after they voted unanimously to reject the nba's final offer for a 50/50 split of the league's $4 billion in

revenues. they dissolved the union means they could become eligible they hope to win several billion dollars in damages. commissioner david stern blasting the players warning the legal fight could last for years and i'm afraid everyone has tuned out. >> who cares? >> no one cares. that's a shame for the nba because everybody cared at the end of last season. >> let me ask, we understand that nfl players have it worst of all and maybe major league baseball players have it the best. what about nba? where do they fit in terms of -- >> well, the league says that the teams are losing money and therefore that the players get too large a share of revenues. the players don't believe the math given by the owners, so they probably -- they have a pretty fair deal so they don't want to get pinned on 50/50. they want to have more than the owners have, which is essentially this turns on a luxury tax and different contract. it's very arcane and not very interesting. >> people are tuning out.

>> it's a shame. they had a great season last year next mika's must read opinion pages including one from gene robinson who explains why republicans are not closing the deal with voters. keep it on "morning joe." luck? i don't trade on luck. i trade on fundamentals. analysis. information. i trade on tradearchitect. this is web-based trading, re-visualized. streaming, real-time quotes. earnings analysis. probability analysis: that's what opportunity looks like. it's all visual. intuitive. and it's available free, wherever the web is.

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hey guys there was another republican debate on saturday and listen to this. ron paul only got 89 seconds to speak. seriously? rick perry gets more time than that to try to remember something. >> ron paul is saying he wasn't treated fairly by the organizers of the debate. i pulled the tape. you be the judge. take a look. at the south carolina republican debate, cbs showed its bias against ron paul by placing his podium next to the ice machine. hang in there, congressman.

>> that just doesn't seem fair, really. >> i didn't notice the ice machine. >> a lot of foot traffic. >> a lot of foot traffic. >> yeah. welcome back to "morning joe." it is 45 past the hour, time now for the must read opinion pages. we're going to start with eugene robinson. he says in "the washington post" that republicans are not closing the deal with voters. according to the polls, voters agree with the democrats on major issues such as ending the bush tax cuts for the wealthy and preserving social security and medicare. they agree with the republicans that the government should spend less but seem increasingly doubtful that any of the gop candidates would trim the budget in an intelligent and compassionate way. michele bachmann's call to make obama a one-term president doesn't automatically get the big response it used to. simply being not obama isn't enough. the republican candidates are trying to sell a bunch of old trickle down economic policies without even dressing them up in new rhetoric and it looks to me

as if the voters aren't buying. >> harold? >> there isn't much to buy when you look at the whole field. >> well, you can't just dismiss the entire republican field can you? >> no. i just said that when you look at the whole field, there isn't much to buy. there may be one or two but there ain't -- how many is -- eight. >> it is a very good thing for you. >> why? >> that you get to vote in a democratic primary. >> see i know this means nothing coming from me so why don't you say it? >> harold, what do you think? >> i think there is a lot of truth to there not being a strong field. however, this race will boil down to one person being nominated. it looks more and more like it will be mitt romney. i'm not counting out jon huntsman. i agree with some of the analysis that in new hampshire he could emerge. when it is a one on one race it'll be different. i know president obama understands that. his team understands that. and it is laughable right now, some of the things these candidates are saying. but at the end of the day, i think two things will determine the president's election. if we get us a good deal, a solid deal on reducing the debt between now and christmas or

right before christmas and the continued focus on the economy and creating jobs, if the president is able to do the first one first, reduce the debt then get the jobs, i think it'll be very hard to beat him. if that doesn't happen i think this will be one heck of a race between now and november particularly if it's mitt romney. >> what do you think? i mean, talking about this field at the end of the day it's who gets through. >> yeah. >> if it's mitt romney against barack obama, wouldn't you say republicans would have a strong general election candidate? >> yes. >> what about huntsman versus -- >> i actually think that's the candidate who could hurt obama. >> i know you don't like newt but the thing a lot of conservatives like about newt is what you like about democrats. >> right. >> when they get very aggressive and say nasty things about republicans. >> i think i have a real bias with newt that i have to be transparent about. >> yeah. >> i can't even pretend. but the others -- >> ron paul. >> ron paul is -- >> has a good message for limited government, right? >> i'm going to say what you say and that is which one can really

win? which one can really win? >> i think there are two that can win. >> exactly. >> so what do you think? mark, about -- i think the takeaway from gene and i agree with it, just being against obama may have been enough in 2010. it's not enough now. >> i think it actually may be enough. i think that's -- >> you are just being -- >> i think that is the only way the republicans can win. >> what's wrong with him? really? he's just kind of grumpy today. >> not grumpy. >> you think herman cain can beat barack obama? >> no. i don't think he could today. he'd have to really be a different person than he is. the thing about mitt romney is i think he is going to have to turn his attention more to the general election. he has to start appealing to hispanic voters and suburban voters and not just being against obama. i think he needs an affirmative message with some of these groups that are going to decide this thing. i think the path to victory for mitt romney if there is one is making the election all about the president's record on the economy and not about necessarily his own ideas. one of the things the obama people look at, feel incredibly energized by is romney's support

for paul ryan's budget and the cuts in medicare. they think that alone will be just a huge talking point for them in the general. >> it is the alleged absurdity of this field that we talk about almost every day going back to palin who didn't come into the field, herman cain, all these characters. is it really so unusual? don't we feel like every time there's a primary season you have seven or eight people, six or seven? >> weakest field in our lifetime either party. >> this is not alleged either. >> but at the end of the day if you come out with mitt romney, if he emerges from all of this craziness, isn't he a viable contender to barack obama and the absurdity of the field never mattered in the first place? >> he is the -- a very weak candidate by himself. he's the strongest in this field, but talk to republicans all the time who should be for him, given who else is in the field. no enthusiasm for him or not. >> why? >> why? i mean, listen. i like mitt. mitt was pro choice, now he is pro life.

he was for gay marriage. now he's against gay -- >> he was never for gay marriage. >> yeah he was. >> he was not for gay marriage. >> what was he for? >> he said he'd be better for gay rights but he never was for gay marriage. >> okay. if you say, i mean, i'm going to be better for gay marriage than ted kennedy i think most conservatives would mark that down as a flip flop. health care, you look at some of the things he said on health care, look at some of the things he said about reagan. i think he said he was an independent. i mean, i promise, you can go back and find one clip after another -- gun control, he's flip flopped on gun control. even though the romney people suggest he hasn't done it, many conservatives believe he flip flopped on collective bargaining. mitt romney did what it took to get elected governor of massachusetts and now he's doing what it takes to win iowa primaries. and i'm sorry. that's not inspiring for a lot of conservatives and i do

predict you won't see the kind of turnout that you would get if you had a candidate conservatives would be excited about. i mean, you look at republicans when they lose. john mccain, bob dole, gerald ford. it's when you get these moderates that conservatives don't get excited about. >> all right. we'll continue the conversation. willie's news you can't use is next. keep it right here on "morning joe." ti blsimyoce'as o®st gnalnayli d dthcl pi'ngcl plfo, alno d dthcl pi'ngcl plfo, t ncar

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okay. it's time. >> so here's what happened. down in the panhandle, joe, this comes from an affiliate in panama city, florida. >> only good things come out of the panhandle. >> went out to the streets and got eyewitness accounts of a bank robbery. it involved a car flying through the window apparently of a credit union. >> oh, wow. >> 27-year-old matthew whitney dykes fled from the central credit union on highway 231 and 19th street. police say dykes tried to rob the bank wearing a mask and holding a weapon. once clerks alerted the police he took off and hit a vehicle as he fled from police. >> he came in dukes of hazard getting it, digging like dale jr. and then hooked up and shot forward and when he hooked up and shot forward that's when he came and hit. >> that's carter johnson's

account of what happened. >> come on. you're making that up. >> play it again. >> that's not my old district. >> he said, quote, he came in dukes of hazard style. like dale jr. >> well? wow. >> car came flying. >> you just said northwest florida -- >> i'm sorry. >> you just set their economic development plans back a decade. >> i report the news. >> wow. carter johnson. >> can we see that again? >> sure. >> i want to see that again. i want a hat like that. >> 27-year-old matthew whitney dykes fled from the central credit union on highway 231 and 19th street. police say dykes tried to rob the bank wearing a mask and holding a weapon. once clerks alerted the police he took off and hit a vehicle as he fled from police. >> he came in dukes of hazard, getting it, digging like that, like dale jr., and then hooked up and shot forward and when he hooked up and shot forward that's when he came and hit.

>> it's 2011, man. i haven't worn a cap like that since 2009. >> i think he's terrific. my dad has a hat like that. just doesn't have the tail. >> wouldn't even try to do that -- holy cow. king of the hill. >> he was wearing the hat. it's chilly. >> it's fall. >> that was dale, king of the hill. i have to say, for everybody watching, i've been in northwest florida for like 35 years. i've never seen anybody in a coon skin hat. >> we'll switch gears, coming up. still ahead, illinois governor pat quinn, howard dean, eugene robinson. we'll be right back. [ ben harper's "amen omen" playing ] we believe doing the right thing never goes unnoticed.

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for a hot dog cart. my mother said, "well, maybe we ought to buy this hot dog cart and set it up someplace." so my parents went to bank of america. they met with the branch manager and they said, "look, we've got this little hot dog cart, and it's on a really good corner. let's see if we can buy the property." and the branch manager said, "all right, i will take a chance with the two of you." and we've been loyal to bank of america for the last 71 years.

mr. cain do you think the libya comments reinforced the idea that you don't have a thorough understanding of foreign policy? >> 9-9-9. >> nbc -- >> that says it all. >> he was trying to ask herman cain about this very awkward answer that he gave. >> that was for jimmy kimmel. >> no. >> you're going to have to step off the cain train at some point. >> i know you love him. >> get off the cain train right now. >> i'm with you about what it

says about us as a society. >> okay. >> that doesn't mean i think he will definitely collapse. >> let's not pretend we don't have a big problem if people can't get off the cain train. >> they're off the cain train. >> welcome back. joining the table, former governor of vermont, and former chairman of the democratic national committee howard dean and from washington pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. >> guys, thanks for being with us. "the washington post" calls this herman cain's oops moment. i say, i call it his dazed and confused moment. take a listen to herman cain during an interview with the editorial board of the milwaukee journal sentinel. >> yeah. >> then tell us whether you think this is the end of the line. >> this is not snl. this is what happened. >> we'll see if this is the end. >> so you agreed with president obama on libya or not? >> okay.

lib libya. president obama supported the uprising. correct? president obama called for the removal of gadhafi. just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing before i say, yes, i agree or no i didn't agree. i do not agree with the way he handled it for the following reasons. no, that's a different one. i got to go back. got all this stuff twirling around in my head. i would have done a better job of determining who the opposition is. and i'm sure that our

intelligence people had that -- had some of that information. based upon who made up that opposition, okay, based upon who made up that opposition might have caused me to make some different decisions about how we participate. >> you not only get that video, you get the following video from herman cain's greatest hits on collective bargaining. take a listen. >> would you favor collective bargaining for federal employees? >> they already have it don't they? yeah. they already have collective bargaining. >> no they don't. >> they have unions. >> they have unions. >> okay. >> but they don't have the same bargaining powers. >> they don't have the same bargaining powers. here again, collective bargaining, i support, as long as it doesn't create an undue burden on the state, the government, the taxpayer, and this sort of thing. that's the issue. >> okay. see, if you don't just stay like it is, and say this man is

selling books and making a joke of the political system and making a joke of american voters, seriously? for his own benefit? >> howard, go ahead. >> i don't think that was that awful. look, i don't think -- >> come on. >> stop that. >> he doesn't know -- >> at the end of the day he got the issue, which was who was in the opposition in libya? that's reasonable. >> what are you doing, howard dean? come on. >> look, what rick perry did was a lot scarier than what herman cain just did. >> i'll take perry. >> any day of the week. >> i'll take perry. >> rick perry's campaign couldn't afford a two cent index card to write the three things he wanted to remember? >> gene, we're blown away. howard dean obviously loves herman cain. >> i'm not defending him. i'm just saying i didn't think it was that -- >> response? >> i kind of love herman cain too because he is enormously

entertaining and what a great nominee he would be for the republican party. however, that was appalling. that is -- he got the issue right at the end. >> he had no clue. >> i'm going to throw something at you. >> howard is having fun with us. >> actually the administration didn't work to figure out who the opposition was? i think he just made that up. >> but that was an issue that was discussed multiple times during the libyan campaign. >> it was discussed but he said they didn't work hard enough to figure it out. >> they're all making responsible charges so this is nothing new here. >> come on. >> i think you can nail herman cain on a lot of stuff. i don't think that was a good one. >> stop it. that's horrible. gene, we're not asking howard another question. >> he's just playing. >> i'm not. >> yes you are. >> i think gingrich is going to be the next guy running against romney. >> not only does he not know about libya, does he not know china has nuclear weapons, but let's talk about ideology the republicans care about.

he's in wisconsin and doesn't know the basics of collective bargaining. then at the echbd tnd of the da supports it. >> bring it on. in fairness, he's got all that stuff twirling around in his head. >> that's what he said. >> come on. what that stuff twirling around is i don't think we want to know. but there's a lot of it and it's twirling. this is really ridiculous. >> i guarantee you, gene. you and i both have boys in high school before. he reminded me of actually a middle school son, me quizzing him on current events. >> exactly. >> my son going, i got so many things twirling around. my 8th grade son, if he didn't know the answers better than that. >> i agree. i think his performance speaks for itself and the bigger question is, does he continue to drop and does gingrich continue

to rise? and i'm thinking probably makes romney continue to look better and better to perhaps some of those 3/4 of republicans who have -- >> now i'm out voted 5-1 here. >> can you imagine if huntsman were asked that question on libya? >> no. i agree with that. >> what? >> this is -- i am actually trying to think about how i could have a different conclusion than all of you. i think it's because the bar has been lowered so far it seems to me you look at that and, well, he got the issue right. >> that's pathetic. >> it is. >> is newt gingrich next? >> yes. >> he's the next one to rise up. >> yeah. >> does he stay up and give romney a battle for a while? >> the problem, romney has two big problems. the first is that 70% of the republican party doesn't want to nominate him, yeah, about 70%. the second is a poll i think i saw on this show about a month ago. i don't remember who did it where they asked romney versus obama who cares the most about rich people, middle class people, poor people?

obama according to the electorate cared the most about -- 30% said he cared the most about rich people. i think 40 middle class and 20 poor people. romney was 70% cares the most about rich people. you know a lot about polls everybody here, right? so as you know, every poll that's ever asked, there's two or three questions that you always ask and those are the most important questions. one of them is cares about people like me. how do they do that? how does mitt romney overcome that? i don't know. i think it's a tough one. >> we're showing a cnn poll that shows romney being the only republican that right now can beat president obama again and it was said by mark earlier and we all understand this these are national polls. they're a year out. they just don't really matter a whole lot. but right now if you look at polls even in the states it looks like newt gingrich is the next guy to challenge romney, which again as we've been saying for months is a real problem for romney. because the anti-romney vote

seems more spirited in the gop primaries than the romney vote. >> yes. the anti-romney vote is there and it refuses to go away. you know, donald trump, michele bachmann, rick perry, herman cain now as they rise and fall, the fact that his numbers don't move, they don't go up, tells me something. and when you listen to people like eric erickson of red state and you read george will who was -- demanded to know why conservatives would settle for mitt romney, he's got a problem. he's got a problem in the republican party. you would know more about it than i would, joe, but i think it's a genuine problem that will diminish the turnout i think in november. >> he's got a problem, mika, on several issues. if you remember back to 2008, hillary had a problem on one issue. iraq. one issue. >> right. >> and that did her in with the

party faithful. mitt romney is being done in by a thousand cuts. >> so historically speaking, mark, is it normal to have such con voel ugs this la convolution this late in the game? >> sure. look what happened on the democratic side the year governor dean ran. there is a lot of fluidity. no one is above 20 in iowa in the latest bloomberg poll. newt gingrich is the best thing that happened to mitt romney so far in this cycle because he cannot beat romney one-on-one. i think perry could under some circumstances. i think cain could under some circumstances. i think huntsman could even under some circumstances. i don't think newt gingrich can beat him one-on-one. >> a couple things real quick. you look at what romney has had to overcome. perry gets in the race. he has to with stand the blistering attacks there and did a pretty good job. i thought he did a very good job until cain emerges. before that you had bachmann. before that you had trump. >> before that palin. >> right. you had sarah palin. now you have gingrich. newt is a smart guy.

provocative thinker. but he will implode. the question is whether or not huntsman emerges at any point. now that we're getting so late in the cycle he may or may not. i think romney comes out of this a better candidate. he's able to say to conservatives and the fundamental question i think for you, joe, will conservatives stick with him? finally, with health care emerging as it has as an issue and the court deciding it does it give romney cover as a supreme court listens to this, whatever decision they may make? if he is able to say repeatedly i will undo obama care, does that help cain traction more with conservative voters? >> it may, but, you know, jon huntsman, howard dean, has maybe two weeks to start moving to new hampshire. >> first of all i disagree with mark. i don't think i've seen this happen on the republican side. >> where was john mccain four years ago? >> he was the putative favorite and john mccain -- >> rudolph guiliani? >> rudolph guiliani was a paper tiger and everybody knew that and he kept moving his deadline further back but the

republicans, this is the most disorganized republican primary i've ever seen. i've never seen a primary like this. >> talk about the race because we're talking about where we are right now. this is -- we're in november at this stage in '04. >> i agree with mark. >> i would guess you were in first place. >> i was starting to fade right about now. >> actually kerry was being discounted at this point as being basically like romney, a loser that could never win the nomination and, yet, he won at the end. when do you find voters in iowa and new hampshire really start focusing in? >> about three weeks before hand. >> three weeks before hand. >> what happened was john -- actually john had to raise a bunch of money. he gave himself a big loan. hired the guy who at the time i think was the best vote counter in the country, michael hooly, went to iowa and just kicked our butt. and he did that over a three or four-week period. >> so that all started in december is when -- >> yeah.

>> when kerry started to make his charge. >> when you're in these you feel -- i could feel us starting to erode in december. but especially toward the latter part of december. >> was it organization or his 30-second ads? what really -- >> he was better organized than we were by somewhat in iowa. hooly at that time was the best in the business. >> still is. >> i think plouffe is -- you can't -- plouffe has got to be the best campaign manager ever on the democratic side and my advice to obama was save yourself $40 million. florida is incredibly disorganized, very difficult, very expensive. you can win without it. i thought that was the most extraordinary feat of the obama -- of an extraordinary campaign was winning florida and paul, too, has had a lot to do with that. i would never take anything away from michael hooly. >> right. >> for a long time he was the best in the business. he basically kicked our butt. >> you saw this solidifying three weeks before. harold, when you ran campaigns when did you notice voters really start to -- >> i think the governor -- governor dean has it right.

watching that campaign i was an early kerry supporter in the campaign and you began to feel, because there was a moment when it looked as though john kerry would not be the nominee and -- >> we're in november. at some point it's crunch time. for me i'm actually going out of business the last ten days. that's when i see them focusing in. but here three weeks, when do you think it's regular season and the preseason is over? >> the last four weeks, five weeks of the campaign if the game is on. particularly until you have early voting in tennessee. but you -- these guys -- you're now -- you're right. you said earlier, there are two weeks left for huntsman to find traction. if he doesn't find it before, he's got a week after this deadline that congress has for november 23rd. if not, romney will find himself, barring some up ending thing in the campaign which doesn't sound like it's going to happen, as the prohibitive nominee. >> we really need to explain, a lot of people are probably wondering. huntsman is sitting at 1% now 3%

in the polls nationally. >> i've said this for a long time. >> talking about huntsman, the reason why is because huntsman has what it takes to be president of the united states. >> well, he does that. >> and bluntly put, and i've said it and it oefds people, just about everybody else in the rn race does not. why are we focusing on the guy with 1%, 2%, 3%? at the end of the day, gene, we know, especially the republican party, michele bachmann is not going to get it. herman cain is not going to get it. sarah palin, you knew, was not going to get it. at the end of the day the republican party is conservative with a small c and at the end of the day will either be romney or huntsman, yes? jon huntsman who is sitting at 3% in the polls right now. that's the reality. >> well, joe, i think that's the reality if the world still makes sense. how much of the republican party is willing to go down in flames? how much of the republican party is going to insist on an

ideologically purer conservative than romney or huntsman in their view? a big chunk of the party. >> a lot of them will stay home. >> let me tell you something. mitt romney, i've talked to a lot of conservatives who were so offended, gene, through the years by his flip-flops that they swear they will not vote for him. >> they also said the same thing about dole. they also said the same thing about mccain and, yes, conservatives stayed home, gene. they do do it don't they? >> well, they do. it certainly seems they do. look, i have trouble kind of understanding. mitt romney is a pretty conservative guy as far as i'm concerned. >> he is this year. >> yes, this year. but i really have been surprised for months now at this antipathy

toward romney and the fact that people just aren't willing to accept him. >> let me ask you this, gene. what if you are a front runner in the democratic process in 2016 and it was pro life in 2012, was anti-gay marriage in 2012 -- >> 2010. >> 2010 we'll say. no, i'm saying if in 2016, i'm projecting four years from now. if four years earlier they were pro life. think about this for a second. against gay marriage. got 100% rating with the nra. was against collective bargaining, you tell me, what kind of columns would you be writing about that democratic front runner that flip flopped? would you be excited about that candidate? would howard dean be excited about that candidate? would anybody on the left be excited about that candidate? anybody? anybody? buehler? >> probably not. >> buehler? >> probably not too excited. >> well that's what conservatives are looking at. they are looking at a man who has changed every position that

matters to them. so that's why conservatives are saying, really? just like democrats four years from now would say, really? we're going to vote for a guy who was pro life against gay marriage, pro gun, etcetera, etcetera? doesn't get your blood boiling, does it, howard? >> no, you know, i ran in a coffee shop in washington and they said i'm really mad not voting for obama and i just looked at him and i said yes you will. he said what? when it comes to october you're going to have a choice and it is going to be real easy to go out and vote for obama. it's true. the same is true of conservatives. look, i have a lot of respect for romney i must say. i'm obviously not going to vote for him but he's the real candidate. he could be president. >> i like him. >> i think that if the conservatives have a choice between barack obama and mitt romney they're going to vote for mitt romney. they're not going to stay home. >> obviously, we are constantly thought provoking.

if we didn't think mitt romney wasn't marching toward the nomination right now, we would be -- i wouldn't be jabbing at his weakness, explaining why conservatives are so offended by him. and by the way, mika, as we've said, he's turned into a hell of a political candidate over the past four years. >> that helps when you've done it before. and that has helped republican candidates in the past for sure. so it's interesting. i think the question is, do they want to win? not does their candidate live up to exactly every conservative credential known to man. >> or any of them. >> yeah. coming up we'll talk to illinois governor pat quinn. also ahead, newark mayor cory booker on his efforts to bring jobs to the garden state. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

welcome back. 23 past the hour. joining us now the governor of the state of illinois, democrat pat quinn, who i just found out, you were rick perry's roommate on the trip to iraq. >> how did that work for you? >> went to iraq and afghanistan.

>> how did it go? >> with rick perry. >> yeah. seven days. >> you bunked with him. >> how was that? >> anybody who goes to help service members is okay with me. and rick perry used to be a democrat a long time ago. >> you guys get along? >> very well. he's a talkative guy. >> any pauses in his conversation, stopping to collect his thoughts? >> no. he definitely is so confident. but he is a nice guy. >> under stated. >> he is confident. >> he does seem like a nice guy. >> yeah. he had a video camera everywhere we went. we were in iraq and it was 141 degrees on a sunday. visited a lot of our soldiers from both texas and illinois and then we were leaving on a plane and he said, you see that over there? i looked over and he said, that's ur where abraham got started. then he had his video camera going away. he recorded the whole trip and we went to afghanistan which is a totally different country really than iraq. very mountainous. and he was very popular with the

service members from texas. >> yeah. >> he visited illinois. we had 3200 national guard from our state in afghanistan. >> wow. >> right then. >> so let me ask you on something that illinois is doing. you guys are actually moving forward with high speed rail. there's been a debate for 25 years in florida about getting high speed rail. but you guys are actually moving forward and you've had a line so if chicago cub fans want to go see the cardinals, or vice versa, that line is going to be completed when? >> 2014. we're the first in the nation to break ground for high speed rail. chicago to st. louis. it goes all through our state. >> and the trains go 110 miles an hour. >> yeah. we'd like to go 220 on another line. we're looking at chicago to champaign and then maybe to st. louis from there. >> then 220 miles an hour is because of new track? >> yeah. new track and also we're building rail cars. we had a company come from wisconsin to illinois because wisconsin kind of gave up on high speed rail. this company nippon shiro is

building cars right in illinois. we want that manufacturing as well as the trains. >> you had said howard dean you get to chicago from st. louis by plane. it will actually take longer. >> by the time you get through the airport security. >> and get out to o'hare and etcetera and if we put down tracks, 220 miles an hour, that is a game changer. >> it is. and we need a lot more of that. the president is right in trying to get that done. it's too bad he wasn't able to be more successful because of the local resistance. >> how many jobs will that create? >> thousands of jobs. >> the whole effort. >> we have, you know, a lot of people in illinois into the railroad. we have more railroads than anybody in the whole country. we are the inland capital of the united states in terms of distributing goods and we can make sure passengers get to where they want to go as fast as possible. >> the work on the railways will that also improve other commercial aspects of the -- make it faster to bring products in and get products out?

>> we're the number one exporting state in the whole union that is not on a coast and that's really what we're trying to do. we want to really distribute goods across the heartland of our country and then export our great agriculture. illinois has got huge agriculture and we increased our exports this year by 30%. last year by 20%. that's a good way to create new jobs. >> yes, it is. >> you know, we have to do that. >> governor, eugene robinson is with us from washington and she has the question for you. >> okay. governor, two questions. first why would anybody want to go to st. louis? >> oh, please. i was at the sixth game of the world series. >> no hating. but we love st. louis. but one question. what would you like to see from washington to help try to get the illinois economy started again? >> well, our president is from illinois and he understands that investing in building roads, taking care of railroads, clean water, broadband deployment,

building new schools, that's the american jobs act. i'm all for that. create jobs in illinois, create jobs in every single state. and the president is right on target. we've got to build and make things right here, made in the usa. that's our number one slogan and motto for now and forever. >> so talk about jobs. what's the job situation in illinois? what's the unemployment rate right now? >> 10%. we have lots of work to do. you know, we created more jobs than any state in the midwest last year, but it's a major challenge coming out of a recession. >> yeah. >> you know, jobs follow brain power. we should never forget that. the best way to get better jobs is to have strong schools. from birth on. you know, early childhood education, we're investing in that and definitely investing in community colleges. i used to teach community college. >> right. >> we have a million students in illinois at community college and their average age is 31 years old. those are the heart and soul of our country those men and women. >> that's absolutely true. our unemployment rate never got above 7.1 and it's below 6 now

and it's because we have 26, in a very small state, institutions of higher education, a pretty good school system. i am very proud pat was a big dean supporter because he is one of the most reform minded governors in the country. what he has done is unbelievable. he's got the legislature to start to balance the budget by doing the right thing not the wrong thing. >> what, raising taxes? >> raising taxes and cutting the budget. you've got to do both. and the sooner the congress learns that the better off the country is going to be. >> so does raising taxes make illinois -- chris christie said before we'll talk all those illinois jobs because you're raising taxes. >> yeah. >> and doesn't it make it harder especially for states to raise taxes during an economic downturn because you keep businesses away? >> we inherited it, you know, i became governor about thr years ago and inherited a huge deficit not only a fiscal deficit but ethics deficit. my predecessor was impeached and removed from office. >> it's like every second governor in illinois gets thrown in jail. you're taking care of yourself

right? >> yeah, right. >> fortunately it is not his turn. >> it is amazing. it's not your turn. the next guy is going to jail. >> we have strong ethics laws and it is part of recovery. but when christie came out to our state, he runs down illinois. their taxes are higher than ours. and then when there's a hurricane in the northeast, not too long ago, who's out there? vermont and a lot of other states. the illinois national guard. that's who. we sent a thousand men and women from our state, all our equipment. we were down there fighting hurricane katrina down in louisiana a few years ago. >> right. but the question on jobs is, and it's legitimate, because you know people make decisions based on taxes and regulations state by state by state. is that hard to raise taxes? forget about -- forget about the economy inside illinois but is it hard to raise taxes during an economic downturn when you're trying to steal jobs from other states? >> no doubt about it. but the bottom line is location, transportation, education. a lot of businesses are interested in good workers. when i became governor we had

one shift at our ford plant in illinois. >> right. >> we have three shifts now. they believe in what we're doing. highly skilled workers, market where we can sell cars, 21st century vehicles. mitsubishi is in normal, illinois. they're making electric vehicles and selling electric vehicles. normal, illinois is going to be ev town, electric vehicle town for the whole country. >> harold? >> health care. the law being challenged, not just the individual mandate but the medicaid portion, governor, how does that affect -- your state is not one of them. i imagine i know your answer. what are your impressions of what could happen if any of this is overturned? >> i support the president. you know, a lot of young adults who didn't have health insurance now have it thanks to the affordable care act. same way with those who have pre-existing conditions. i walked across our state from the mississippi river in rock island all the way to chicago and lake michigan on behalf of decent health care for everybody. and i know our president believes in that. we'll have a showdown at the

u.s. supreme court. i think our side will win. and getting better health care is part of getting economic recovery. we have to reduce the cost of health care for every day people. >> now, joe, the individual mandates parts we must focus on but the pharmacy services component particularly to underserviced communities, walgreens on veterans day providing the discount. we look at all these services provided in particularly under served minority communities, i hope the court agrees with you that the individual must be upheld as well as the medicaid. >> walgreens is headquartered in illinois, a great pharmacy store but now a wellness place. >> exactly. >> you can check your blood pressure, get a flu shot. we have food deserts where people don't have a lot of grocery stores. walgreens are selling fresh fruits and vegetables. we have to transform ourselves in the 21st century so that we're really focused on preventing bad things from happening. howard is a doctor. you believe in preventative health care that's the best way to go. >> mika, our friend hal

rosenblum you've had on this show was actually working with walgreens for these wellness centers. >> yes. and he's a good friend. >> it's important. >> they're in a lot of communities where as the governor said, half the places where these first food places are places where people have limited access to fresh food. >> it's a forward thinking company on a number of levels. >> it is. howard, i was just thinking because our friend hal had talked about these wellness centers and walgreens. i started thinking with the technology that we have and now where you can have video conferencing really cheaply on the internet wouldn't it be wonderful if there were stores like walgreens where people can come in and get -- >> it's happening already. walmart. >> wellness checks. >> here is the big -- >> and flu shots. >> you've got to change the way we pay for medicine because right now illness gets rewarded not wellness. >> right. >> financial incentives have everything to do with people's behavior. it's not enough just to do what walgreens is doing or the fortune 500 is doing on wellness. you have to have the whole

system geared toward paying people for wellness and not for illness. >> all right. governor pat quinn -- >> thank you, governor. good to see you guys. >> good to see you. eugene, thank you as well. your column, another great one online at "the washington post".com. >> thank you, gene. coming up, the fight to keep jobs in new jersey. we'll have mayor cory booker how he helped convince panasonic to bring its north america headquarters to newark. a great story coming up on "morning joe." >> there's st. louis. ♪ [ male announcer ] from our nation's networks... ♪ ...to our city streets... ♪ ...to skies around the world... ♪ ...northrop grumman's security solutions

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welcome back to "morning joe." weather update, bill karins, they're putting bulbs on the tree with t-shirts on today. unbelievably warm temperatures up and down the east coast. temperatures in the mid 60s in some cases. we should only be in the 50s for highs. the weather pattern is a little topsy-turvy. that is going to mean airport delays. right now we're doing okay. if you're traveling through the big texas airports that's where the delays will be the worst this morning and eventually heading into new orleans. we got thunderstorms rolling through san antonio, the travel trouble spot down there. currently also rain through areas of kentucky and tennessee as we go throughout your morning. finally that rain will arrive eventually into areas of the east but not until later today. the dry morning commute from washington, d.c.

later this morning damp. thunderstorms from dallas to houston to new orleans later on this afternoon. so over all the last warm day for the east coast. cold air is on the way as scheduled. up next on "morning joe" the always entertaining mayor of newark, cory booker. the markets never stop moving. of course, neither do i. solution?

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earlier this year, panasonic announced plans to relocate to newark, new jersey, bringing with it a thousand jobs to the city. joining us now newark mayor cory booker once again along with the chairman and ceo of panasonic's north american division, joseph taylor. very fwood good to have you bot onboard. >> thank you very much. >> congratulations.

>> this is a huge get. >> honestly this is a company that lives its values and made a decision where to go not just on the bottom line but where they could best manifest who they say they are. it's an extraordinary leader here who is the first american leader of the company that's leading up the north american division. >> why do you guys decide not to move out of state? why did you decide -- >> what were the other options? >> the first option was the west coast. that's where our other competitors have moved over the last few years out of new jersey. and we have facilities, the other ones we looked at, of course, new york, right here in the city, and georgia and illinois we had facilities. but we have a very passionate mayor and a very persuasive governor and they have great teams and they did a great job of convincing us of the benefits of staying in new jersey. >> so what put newark, new jersey over the top in terms of -- i get the team work and i get that they're convincing personalities but ultimately, it's got to work for you as a

company. >> yeah. it's a great point. there were a lot of things that had to come together. we believe that we are going to be the number one green electronics company in the world by 2018. and you can't do that if you don't have great mass transportation. you can't have a thousand people driving to work. in addition to that we wanted to build a sustainable state-of-the-art building. and then the governor and the mayor showed us that we could do all of that right in new jersey. and i think the topping point, i didn't want to move out of state. i didn't want to lose a thousand employees. so i think it was really a win-win-win all around. >> mr. mayor, take us inside the pitch. because we know that you probably could have saved some money by going elsewhere. you said this wasn't a bottom line decision by panasonic. what did you say to convince them? >> i think joe knows the biggest challenge we have in newark is people have a perception of our city that stopped 20, 30, 40 years ago. you really have to get people to

understand the new vision of newark, new jersey and what's happening. i think joe understood that not only did it make sense in the bottom line, not only did it make sense from a green environmental standpoint. not only would he have teams from the state to the city that were there to support them but they can really become a part of a community and be a cata lit ik agent which they have been since they've announced. we've announced numerous other companies that are following and moving to the city of newark, distribution companies. i was joking before. manashevitz has moved their global headquarters to newark. >> willie, a little known fact. newark, now the wine capital of north america. yes. according to the mayor. the new wine country. >> i thought about bringing one of panasonic's best products or some matza and picked up the matza in there. we'll get you the panasonic products later. >> what did you sacrifice to come to newark in terms of the bottom line? what advantages could you have had say in california? >> we could have saved a lot of money moving to one of our existing facilities. we could have saved a lot of money and time moving to the west coast.

but one of our core beliefs in our company is contribution to society. and i really felt that the mayor had the city at a tipping point and i thought that perhaps panasonic could be the tipping point to really transform the city that he has been struggling to turn around for so many years. in the end that was the tipping point for us. >> it just doesn't sound like a -- like a -- well, business decisions usually are tough. they're not about being a nice guy. >> you can do both. you really can do both. and i think in this case we're trying. and we did. and time will tell if this was a leap of faith for a good reason or a leap of faith that didn't work. but i'm very, very confident. as long as the mayor is around and as long as the governor is around we can make this thing move forward. >> wow. >> how are things going? >> generally for newark? >> well, you know, we're really on an upswing weech. this has been a ground breaking

year. 25 products closing on a billion dollars worth of new investment in our city and it really does show and i think joe is a testimony to this, this time where people are giving these blanket villifications of corporations and wealth we need to understand that is unfairly a broad brush. you see a lot of american companies who believe in creating jobs, creating opportunity, growing here at home and empowering cities to turn corners. and this is what really excites me. but i know and i see now i'm getting more intimately involved that some of the things we're drawing companies with, america needs to do more about. one of the biggest things and joe is -- has been involved in ngit which is in newark for a long time because we have got to produce the talent that could become, getting the tech jobs with these companies. what i'm seeing right now is we are in this economy trying to lose -- trying to cut things back. we're cutting out a pound of flesh by disinvesting in higher education and some dumb laws like our immigration laws right now basically say if you come out of ngit or other places as soon as you finish your

education you've got to get out of our country as opposed to -- >> you also gave aggressive tax breaks, right? >> absolutely. panasonic. talk to us about that. >> absolutely. >> and how you balance those. >> well, look. we realize that the benefits of having a thousand employees, payroll tax, parking tickets, you name it, to the city's bottom line is huge. but if you don't create the tax environment to incentivize growth in the right areas, you have these high poverty areas, you're not going to get camden, newark out of poverty by government employment, by nonprofits. it's going to be by business growth, business growth. from the small business growth helping more minorities, women start businesses, to large corporations. so we worked with two different governors from corzine to incredible leadership by chris christie to expand the tax benefits in urban areas around, this is smart growth, around transit hubs. so we cree atded something called the urban transit hub tax credit which means you start getting growth where you want the growth. newark has the largest train

station in the state of new jersey. so for us, it's building on all of our assets, building on being the best transportation hub in the northeast, you know, newark has the biggest port, biggest airport, biggest train stations in the region. it's building in areas that have been disinvested in in the past. it's creating green building, which is critical. and finally, it's creating jobs in the state of new jersey, which for a long time was chasing businesses out because of poor tax climates. this is now going to make new jersey strong. it's going to help our urban areas and create the right kind of growth, smart growth in urban centers. >> go ahead. >> i was going to ask joe, the conventional wisdom is that manufacturing jobs have left the united states for good. they're gone and never coming back. is that your view? >> in the current environment that's my view as well. ten years ago, we had 26 manufacturing sites in north america. ten years ago. today we have six. so while many people have talked about making this a more attractive place for manufacturing, manufacturing

continues to leave to more attractive places around the world and it will be difficult under the current set of circumstances to change that situation around. >> what could change to change your mind to keeparound. >> what could change to keep jobs here. >> referee: >> we don't have very business friendly environments. like in over other case it is the rare exception frankly. and that's the only news that we get is the rare exception. foreign countries, particularly that i'm interested in, direct investment is the big deal. immigration is another situat n situation. h-1 visas for technical people is almost impossible to get. we can't keep technical people

here once they graduate from college. >> i will never understand why we have immigrants coming from across the world to the united states, and then we kick them out so they will go home and create 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 jobs in their home country instead of newark or north carolina or new mexico. it is just ridiculous. >> people talk about protecting job creators. >> we're kicking job creators out. >> we have to start focusing on that pipeline of intelligent people from our own schools as well as what we used to be in the globe which is attracting the best. these were all immigrants that came to our country to help build america. >> this is one of those issues steve jobs talks to barack obama about. he said we have to keep expanding out. he said the president told him we have to get the whole package, not just one part of it.

>> mayor cory booker, very good to have you back on the show. joseph taylor, congratulations. looking ahead to tomorrow, senator marco rubio will be joining us. we'll be back with more "morning joe" in a moment. ♪ ♪ ♪

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out your coffee. >> i was stunned to hear the great governor defending herman cain. surprised i guess. >> cut a guy an even break. >> yeah. >> i'm sure howard dean is pulling your leg. >> who said that. >> ms. cricket. >> big day yesterday in washington, d.c. >> fabulous. >> a huge day. mark, your brother. >> my brother. >> became ambassador. >> he's leaving the country. >> and there is the family and his wife natalia and his wife ian and jenny. >> their daughter was running circles around everybody. >> how exciting. so he's going to sweden and leaving tomorrow. >> yes. and there is an invitation to do "morning joe" in stockholm at

the embassy. >> there is your father and mother. they certainly are so thrilled and proud of mark. it was a great day. >> mark did a great speech. we're going to miss him, but it's a great move for his family and we're very, very proud of him. >> you want to go to stockholm. >> what do you think, willie? they will be on at 11:00, our time. >> we can go in june. >> is there fiber in the ambassador's residence. >> i'm sure they will. >> thanks for nothing, dean. >> seriously. i love it. we shall return. [ child ] no. [ father ] nobody's playing anything until after we get our homework done. thank you. [ dealer ] hello? test drive's not over yet. [ male announcer ] it's practically yours. [ dealer ] hello? [ male announcer ] but we still need your signature. volkswagen sign then drive is back.

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so you agreed with president obama on libya or not? >> okay. libya. president obama supported the uprising, correct? president obama called for the removal of khaddafy. just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing before i say yes, i know i didn't agree. i do not agree with the way he handled it for the following reason.

no. that's a different one. i gotta go back and see. got all this stuff going around in my head. i'm sure our intelligence people had some of that information. based upon who made up that opposition, okay. based on who made up that opposition, might have caused me to make some different decisions about how we participated. >> good morning. it's 8:00 o'clock on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set is mark halperin. >> what do you think? >> it's just got to be over, right? >> well, if that doesn't get you -- >> what is wrong with people.

>> him coming out in support of collective bargaining. >> he didn't know china had nuclear weapons and that didn't do it. why is it so much worse? >> think about that. i you've played the video. >> what did george w. bush famously say? fool me once, shame on you. fool me again, we won't get fooled again. he's done this enough times where it starts to accumulate. you can't say he didn't have enough sleep. you can't say it was a got ya yes. you have to know that. >> the thing is when i started criticizing herman cain early on, of course all the right wingers attacked me. not eric erickson, but most of them. now we saw eric eric erickson's

review. they are talking about how badly this is getting. i was embarrassed about this weeks ago. i was embarrassed that that man that can't answer a basic question is representing my party. that em bar rased me. it didn't embarrass a lot of people. guess what, i think they are embarrassed now. >> they have to be. >> it's a flawed field. it is uncomfortable and it is embarrassing for the par tito have someone not only know the answers to the question but to say, the president doesn't really need to know. >> what about becky, becky, becky -- that's being brought up by foreign leaders. >> but he's running against gingrich, ron paul, mitt romney and rick perry. >> he might have had a brain freeze about what happened in

libya and then not to have any opinion about even the president's overall stance in the middle east so he couldn't even come up with a response that spoke to america's attitude as a result of president obama's stellar leadership. i think this president has excelled in the foreign policy arena. for herman cain not to even have an opinion -- >> yeah. >> andmestdomestically, mika he doesn't get it. >> i don't think he does too well on his sound byte. >> all republicans in this field are against collective bargaining, right. >> alex, do you have that first byte all over again? you said a few weeks ago -- just listen to me. that this guy is making it up as he goaes along.

>> you can watch him getting ready and nothing comes out. >> mika, you have been sitting here for four years as i have said things about republicans and then i have been bashed for telling the truth about weak republican candidates. i hate to say look, look, but this hppens to much. so much that i'm just getting really tired of it. four years later my conservative credentials being questioned because i tell the truth about somebody before the rest of the world tells the truth about somebody. it's like looking at a sprinter and say he runs a 8.7 40 and i say he's going to win the olympics. and people fuss. how could you not support your village. he may win running an 8.7.

you have moved out of your village and now you have changed. you have changed. >> that's a variation on your jesse ventura. >> no. but because i'm a villager i'm supposed to look at a guy running an 8.7 40 saying no, he could win the of limb pecks -- olympics. just like i saided from the very beginning rick perry is not up to the task of being president of the united states. it has everything to do with whether you would trust him not to run the united states of america but a slurpe stand in your hometown. >> this guy is running for president. why is he in wisconsin.

>> right. why is he there. gingrich is wally selling books. they are both selling books. >> mark raise this is point. how do you reconcile the standings he has in the poll. you see him continue to drop. he seems to have maintained some core support. >> you think he'll continue? >> michele bachmann dropped. >> rick perry dropped. >> you want a candidate on the republican side that can really help boost the national conversation. the man couldn't answer a question. >> we can go back and pull tape of what you said after the iowa straw pools. when i said michele bachmann is going down. this is a joke of a candidacy, she will not survive. i can get quotes from main

stream media outlets across the country saying michele bachmann can do it. i can do the same thing with rick perry where i said rick perry is a joke. now you're saying the same thing with herman cain. just like i told you about perry and bachmann. >> just like i told you about sarah palin a year ago. >> mitt romney's ceiling is probably about 35%. that leaves 65% of the vote. it's got to go to somebody. >> not herman cain. >> we have to get to penn state and zucotti. let's give you one more chance. i won't even play the whole byte. you tell me if we should even continue the conversation. >> that's a different question. >> oh, you want to do collective

bargaining? can you get that ready, alex. >> collective bargaining for federal employees. >> they already have it, don't they? >> they already have collective -- >> no, they don't. >> they have unions. >> but they don't have the same bargaining powers. here, again, collective bargain i support as long as it doesn't create an undue burden on the state, the government, the taxpayer and this whole thing. that's the issue. >> that is the issue. >> enough. >> come on. come on. >> he was in wisconsin where this debate commenced and gained the fuel it has gained in the last several months and not know that answer is remarkable. >> people that are supporting the recall of scott walker i think really they will be pleased to know that herman cain supports them, is on their side. he is on their side when it comes to collective bargaining.

>> these are core issues -- >> it has to stop. >> running for president. >> if you're selling books, it's cool. >> there is erosion in the polls. you asked about that. we have a new cnn poll that shows herman cain is down 11 points. >> thank you. >> shows gingrich and herman cain down 11. >> look at those top two people, mika. i know newt gingrich has compared santa claus, as well as everybody else. but the fact that he is well versed on the issues. whether you agree with him or not, whether you agree with his idealology or not, newt gingrich was speaker of the house, third in line for four years and is actually competent. and so is -- >> i have to concede.

>> willie, that is a presiptous drop by cane. and newt skyrocketing. >> we've been asking for some time when will the bubble burst. looks like it is beginning to burst. mark hall dren. >> 65% of the vote has to go enter. >> they are still separating like fifth from first and it is 14 points. you can swing 14 points in this environment. >> so you really do think that the fat guy who runs an 8.7 40 could win the olympics. >> he could end up as the alternative to romney assuming there is one. >> gingrich. >> so could cain. >> he's moved from 1 to 3% in

this last poll. >> national polls don't matter to me. it's just new hampshire. his super pack went on tv yesterday. until that super pack puts money behind tv ads that go after romney directly, i don't think. >> i think huntsman could at least come in second place in new hampshire. 75% of the field, harold. you've seen these elections. 75% undecided all other america. this is the softest i have ever seen the poll six weeks before the presidential primary commences. i think in new hampshire huntsman could do well. >> it is a state made for him to do well. >> that's definitely built for him to have -- good lord. >> how are you doing? >> i'm not good. >> i'm doing fine. >> i'm got good.

>> i'm doing fine except for the fact people think i'm a villager. >> these people just keep -- i'm sorry. i must be -- >> he weighs 322 pounds. this has to do with political -- >> all right. let me get to occupy wall street. they want to clear the park, you know. >> yeah. willie was actually on the scene down there. >> oh. how did it go there, willie. >> at least he started the show earlier than we did. they cleared the park out. what was bloomberg's rational. >> the police came in early this morning around 2:00, 3:00 o'clock and swept out the park. they did it. we had a. >> reporter: on the ground there that saided the confrontations were peaceful for the most part, that the protesters behaved themselves and the police did too by and large, taking them out and telling them saying we have to clean the park. you may come back but you have

to leave behind your sleeping bags and tents. you can come protest here but you may not sleep and live here. >> there are reporters saying they were pushed away from the scene. police set up barricades and department allow people didn't allow people in. people went to what they call the kitchen and chained themselves up. for the most part both sides acted peacefully. >> all right. we'll watch that and see what happens there. >> and we'll see also, mika, if they do go back to the park after they clean it out. >> i think they said they are going to march to broadway. i could hear the helicopter over my apartment. >> i bet they set up a perimeter and don't let people back in with equipment.

let them come back to protest. >> what are we doing this weekend, willie? where are we going to go this weekend? coming up, bob costas joins us. >> he has a book on the nfl. >> he is such a good interview and also a good interviewer as well. first let's go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. >> reporter: even from those pictures you can tell it is a warm, beautiful morning. a lot of people in the mid atlantic are walking out going what's going on. temperatures you're waking up to the 60s. mid-60s from baltimore to dc. this is it. this suspect goiisn't going to . rain showers in green up by pittsburgh. eventually that wet weather will make etc. way to the big cities in the east.

strong thunderstorms rolling through san antonio this hour. that's the worst at the aerpt if you have to travel today. eventually the clouds will go out. the rain will most likely be later on tonight. also watching some of those thunderstorms throughout the day tomorrow. if you're traveling anywhere on the west coast, beg storms on the northwest tomorrow. i guess the big theme today sun believable. what a run we have had in the stretch on the east coast ever since that winter storm two and a half weeks ago. you're watching "morning joe." watching all the protesters back towards the park. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪

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how would you define the part you played? what are you willing to concede that you have done that was wrong and you wish you had not done it? >> in retrospect i shouldn't have showered with those kids. >> that's it? >> yeah. that's what hits me the most. >> are you a pedophile? >> no. >> are you sexually attracted to young boys, to underage boys? >> am i sexually attracted to underage boys? >> yes. >> sexually attracted, i enjoy young people. i love to be around them.

but, no, i'm not sexually attracted to young boys. >> that's bob costas talking to jerry sandusky. he is bob costas. bob, good to see you. >> how you doing, willie. >> we'll begin with the interview on rock center. i think a lot of us saw the news came over last evening that said bob costas will speak to jerry sandusky. were you surprised he spoke to you. >> yes. i sat down with his attorney and no more than 10, 15 minutes before the cameras were to roll his attorney say what is if i can get sandusky on the phone and i'm thinking i wonder from your standpoint whether that's the smartest thing to do. but at the same time, if you want to do it, sure. and that's what happened. >> so the attorneys i sense or did jerry? >> i can't say for sure whether they conferred about it.

i think his attorney spoke to jerry from the green room of our studios just a few minutes before, got his okay and then came back and said we'll do it so we pivoted and made it an interview with sandusky. >> there are so many remarkable moments. you asked a very simple question are you sexually attracted to young boys and he sort of stumbled his way before he found the board no. >> he hesitated before he answered the question. i'll let the viewer infer what they will from that, but it was somewhat odd. >> at the very least. i think another important thing to look at is the one time graduate asis at that particular time, 28 years old in 2002, what exactly he saw. here is the way you wept at sandusky and how he characterized that testimony to the grand jury. >> what did happen the night mike mcquery happened upon you and the young boy? >> we were showering and horsing

around and he actually turned all the showers on and was actually sliding across the floor and we were, as i recall possibly, snapping a towel, horse play. >> what did you make up that response? >> very strange. mcquery says that he witnessed a rape. pretty difficult to confuse the kind of horse play that sandusky just described, to confuse that kind of horse play with a forcible rape. >> or as you point out the janitor's testimony earlier. >> yeah, the janitor in 2000 observed, he says he observed sandusky performing oral sex on an underage boy. that janitor now suffers from dimensid dimentia and can't testify.

>> let me ask about coach paterno who you know well. based on what you no about him and what's been alleged about his involvement and lack of action, how can you explain that. >> i don't think it can be explained sats factorially. there is no way to explain it away. the extent of his involvement or noninvolvement is yet to be established. sandusky whose credible other cans evaluate told me last night he had no reason to believe that paterno was aware of any objections to sandusky's behavior until mcquery went to paterno's house the morning after the incident in the shower in 2002. so according to san dusky and his attorney they do not believe paterno was involved in a cover up or looking away prior to that time. i also asked san dusky what, if anything, paterno said to him in

their subsequent encounters, he was around. he worked out in their facilities as recent as a few weeks ago. he was at penn state events. i said did paterno ever talk to you about this. did he ever suggest you needed counseling. did he ever in any way weigh in on this subject. he said he did not and he said that paterno was more or less cordial to him when their paths crossed subsequent to 2002. >> remarkable whichever part of the testimony you believe to be true, you're told a rape had just taken place or horse play. even if you hear about horse play you're likely to approach san dusky and ask him about it. we do want to turn to the book, bob. 100 greatest moments in nfl history. you and you alone sat through a dark room and labored through this on a manual typewriter. >> exactly.

i did. >> remarkable story of heroism by you. >> this is the relationship we all strive for. joe garner, who has made books like this. joe garner did 99% of the work, but i get at least half the credit. that's exactly what i'm looking for here. i put in a couple days. he puts in a couple years and i sit here with you and mark. >> this is the costas model. >> joe garner is aparentally in the lobby waiting. >> so what do we find in here? very cool. you have great moments, great super bowls. >> the dynasties, the greatest coaches, quarterbacks, comebacks. goesack through the whole recorded history of the nfl. obviously, as you can see, a nice coffee table book but a dvd accompanies it. i host and narrate the dvd. >> best game in your mind, bob

costas, all time nfl history. >> wow. the dolphins and the chargers played an overtime game at the conclusion of the 1991 season than went in overtime. you may remember one being carried off like on a battlefield. chargers won that game. also the afc championship game where it was about 9 below zero and the wind chill was about 58. cincinnati went to the super bowl. >> where do you rank the game on the cover. new york giants, patriots. >> it is one of the great upsets and that is the single greatest play in super bowl history. the fact that eli manning as you see here broke away from two potential sacks before heaving the ball down field. >> people forget that part of the play. >> yeah. the combination of the two makes it the greatest play in super bowl history. plus the fact that it was late in the game and the patriots were on the verge of making it a

19-0 season. laying undisputed claim to being the best single season team in nfl history. they would have sbeat the '72 dolphins. so when you combine all the factors, is that one of the greatest games. was it the greatest from kickoff to the end? no. but the end was. >> as a giants fan it is. >> football has overtaken baseball as our pastime. >> i think we should leave it to my favorite sport baseball. leave baseball something. baseball is a pastime. as george carlin, baseball we can still say is the pastime but in every way it is football. >> how did the nfl do that? >> i think it was gaining ground by then. might have been 20 years ago. a, football televises very well.

each game is once a week so it matters to fans. takes place basically on a sunday when people are in front of the television set. it's playoffs. every playoff game is the equivalent of a seventh game in payable, or cohockey. in football, they're all pay off games and they take place in december and january when people have nothing else to do. i think gambling has something to do with it. this part i regret because i like football despite not because of its belligerence and violence. >> i want to ask you sense we've got you here. i know college football is not exactly your beat. what do you think about a playoff system in the bcs, -- pf system versus the bcs. >> seems to me it would be a very simple thing to involve the

major bowls in an eight-team playoff and you rotate which of the bowls get to host the ultimate game and then sometimes you get the semifinals. you do no worse than the quarterfinals. would there still be some dispute as to whether the nooept or tenth best team as they rated it deserve to be in as the eight seed? yeah. but you wouldn't have any doubt about whether the best two or three teams would be involved in the tournament. >> i don't understand an argument that is against playing more games. if you like sports, football, if you like watching games. it goes back to money. >> it works in every other ncaa sport. also at different levels, division ii, division iii, they have a playoff. >> doesn't the president support it? >> yeah. >> strong coalition. >> i could have a glib comment, but i'm too tired.

>> we're going to let you go back to bed. the book 100 yards of glory written only by bob costas. >> 100%. who this joe garner is, i have no idea. >> still ahead more on the occupy wall street protest. crowds streaming back into zuccotti park after police force them out overnight. we'll be right back. sten om w t icntay

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joe." 35 past the hour. a live look at capital hill. a beautiful day in washington. joining us is the author of the new book makeda, randall robinson. thanks very much for coming on temperature show this morn-- th morning. >> thank you for having me. >> tell us what the theme of the book is. >> set in the segregation era. i grew up in richmond and remember the period well. it is the story of a blind black elder elderly who has a great gift for remembering past lives so she's able to see beyond the long, large lethal space of slavery.

she can remember the history of black people before slavery. one of the great unremarked consequences of slavery is that those who were victimized could not remember who they had been. memory vectors collective success for any people so history is very important to galvanize, to motivatmotivate, inspire so people know who they can because they remember who they were. african americans can't remember anything before slavery. as a matter of fact when i was a child we were called negros. no one knew what the prominence was of that word. but we were assigned it unlike italian americans and german americans, irish americans. there was no negro land. where had we come from and what had we done. this is a woman with this great gift who dreams vividly of past

lives and so she remembers being a girl in ancient egypt when the pyramids were built. she remembers being a child, a teenager in ethiopia when the great christian churches were consecrated early in christian history. she remembers being a child as a dogon child in mollie when her father told her about the universe because the dogon people have underthe celestial bodies for thousands of years before the invention of the telescope and she tell this is to her grandson and it inspires him and gives him the confidence he otherwise might not have had. >> so, malt ultiple stories of different histories intertwined. is this in a way framing history, keeping history safe,

preserving historical perspective from different outlooks through the minds of children? >> for most people it would be learning a history you never knew existed. there are tens of thousands of literatures in libraries in timbuktu. they were doing cataract surgery in mollie in 1394, african doctors. we didn't know anything about it. we were kept from the story of ourselves. so this is a love story. a love of a grandmother for her child. the love of a man for a woman and the love of refound people for themselves found in ancient stories. we can be great again because we have been great before. >> sounds like a story that's familiar to you as a man who

grew up in richmond during segregation. how much of your own life is reflected in these pages? >> a great deal. i think so. segregation was a very painful period. to render us first segregated and then historiley leshistoril was people without a history are more suggestible. they are easier to control. that comes as a great damage to people. we are the only group in america that has had no control of its own story. and this is a way of using fiction, a love story to talk about history and to talk about science, astronomy, the dogon people of mollie. >> we have got an african

american president. but if you walk around rich monotoday, what would they find in terms of race relation that's still struggling? >> many of the signs that were always there. we don't have, of course segregation, but we don't have any vigorous attempt to compensate for the damage that segregation did. we are 5% of the world's population with 20% of the world's prisoners. over 2.3 million people we have locked up. the largest prison population in the world. half of those people are african american, and they are there as a consequence of this socioeconomic history, some of which i experienced as a child in richmond, virginia. slavery has never been properly atoned for. we know about how it damaged us

economically when the value of us endued it with money he got from the sale of his enslaved people in the caribbean. so, harvard is there because slave labor endowed it. that is the case with many american institutions. but we've never talked about what we can't remember. a people who can't remember, you know, are a weakened people. and there's so much. and that wasn't an accident. it was done on purpose to control our story. and so, as i said, this is an attempt to address that, in a love story through the eyes of this remarkable woman who has seen the great arc of history. she was there when it happened.

>> the new book is makeda. randall robinson, we've ld love have you back. a great example of what penn state has to offer. >> thank you. >> up next, melissa franzen who pushed her way through lower zuccotti. >> she actually started this thing. >> yeah. we'll be right back. [ man ] i got this citi thank you card

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occupation was coming to pose a health and fire safety hazard to the protesters and to the surrounding community. we have been in constant contact with brookfield and yesterday they requested that the city assist in enforcing the no sleeping encamping rules in the park. but make no mistake, the final decision to act was mine and mine alone. >> welcome back to "morning joe." live pictures. >> and melissa franzen also. >> don't you hate it when reporters make themselves the story? >> that's what she does. >> look at me. i am the 1% melissa franzen. she was like trying to break it up. >> like jumping in the middle of a fight. >> he always gets it backwards, right mika? i'm here to straighten it out.

there was a steady stream moving away from wall street in that direction. helicopters overhead. police in riot gear. police on horse back all around. as you can see it has been evacuated. joe, i don't know if you have ever been below 14th street. i'm guessing not. >> my lord. >> having walked past the park yesterday it is reasonable to think it was a health hazard. they are saying they are going to let them back in the park without their tents. this is definitely the buzz down here on wall street this morning. >> yeah. so follow up question. what is below 14th street? good restaurants. >> oh, god. everything. life. >> everything. >> the other 99% as well. joe, 1% scarborough. >> we're going to break you in slowly. >> i will. one of these days.

go ahead, me lace is a. insult -- melissa. insult me again. it is your time. >> watching the money italy and france have to spend. making the market a little bit nervous. we saw some consumer prices come in just a few minutes ago, producer prices that were not what we were expecting. so it looks like it could be a little bit of a rocky morning in wall street. >> melissa francis. thank you for putting up with this. thanks. >> thank you, melissa. ten months after the shooting that nearly took her life, gabrielle giffords talks about her recovery and the possibility of returning to washington. we'll be right back. in america, we believe in a future

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welcome back to "morning joe." live look at capital hill. this is a pretty amazing interview. arizona congress gabrielle giffords sat down for an interview. she and her husband mark kelly talked about her feelings about a someday that changed the world forever. >> how do you feel? >> pretty good. >> i can see that your arm, your

right hand you move a lot more. >> yeah. >> is it painful? is it hard. >> just difficult. >> difficult? >> difficult. >> you do a lot of therapy everyday. >> yeah. >> how many hours? >> two hours of therapy. >> yeah. here at the house. >> wow. giffords who had missed about 98% of the votes in congress in the ten months following the shooting also spoke about her future in washington. >> today does she really think she can go back to washington? >> no. better. >> it's better. >> she wants to get better. >> you want to get better. >> better. >> so you think to yourself i'll go back to congress if i get better. >> yes, yes, yes.

>> that's a pretty incredible story on every level. their marriage, their love story. the whole thing is incredible. wish her the best. up next, what if anything did we learn today. >> reporter: i'm might bill karins. a cold front stretching from texas. not going to be too heavy. a steady light rain area. dc, rain will be late in the day for you. better today in the great lakes. still chance of storm in dallas. have a great day. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. i'm getting an upgrade. [ male announcer ] as you wish, business pro. as you wish. go national. go like a pro.

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27-year-old matthew whitney from the central credit union. police say he tried to rob a bank wearing a mask.

he took off and hit a vehicle as he fled from police. >> he came in dukes of hazard like dale jr. and then hooked up and shot forward. hen he hooked up and shot forward that's when he came and hit. >> oh, yeah. >> panama city beach. >> love, love, love. >> i gotta say i lived in that area for 25 years. never seen anybody wearing a coops cap. >> willie, what did you learn today? >> doing a dukes of hazard like a dale jr. >> what did you learn mark halperin. >> a lot of people who watch this show have access to twitter. >> yes. and they're mean. >> what did you learn. >> i'm just going to answer some of the questions i'm getting. yes i would probably vote for a republican if a right we think came along. >> carl marks. >> c