>> i have been working on a piece for the last three weeks. i have been talking to the organizers, although they don't like to call themselves leaders. they have been aware for a while that a new phase was essential it needs to be this much bigger thing. in a lot of ways, though everyone focuses on the park, the park has been a side show for a while. these people are meeting in coffee shops and private offices trying to figure out how once the winter is over, you come back in the spring. to come back bigger and stronger when the weather is more forgiving than it will be. >> i know row hayou have though this too. i wonder how much the physic physicality. >> i think it was important simply by when you look at that many people, that kind of show

of strength, there is a show of seriousness that comes along with that. we will watch a battle between legal elements and political elements. right now we are seeing with new york city where a new york city judge authorized that the protesters will be allowed back into the park which contradicts what the mayor put out a little while ago. watching this play out will be interesting to watch. >> bloomberg is making a good point this is a public space. i can't find any room. this is not sleep away camp. they have trains and libraries set up and you have to remember the threat that it is posing to small businesses in the area. the "new york post" said it is almost $500,000 in expenses that the small businesses are sparing. if we are really interested in job creation, what about the mom and pop shops. >> i have got to say that michael bloomberg and the occupy

wall street folks are from two very different sides of the coin. we have our billionaire mayor to say nothing of his accompli accomplishments in life. he is not the kind of guy that would have ever gone to occupy wall street. he has been critical of the movement and i don't think he has particularly liked the protest. given the fact that they were supposed to have some sort of intervention. >> i don't think he is saying they can't come back. i think he is saying you can come back and voice your sentiments but you can't hang out there. this is not your second home. when you are dealing with a public space where people might want to spend time. >> the people don't see this quite yet, but he has done them a huge favor. they were going to need the leave the park when it got to be really cold anyway. and the park is unrepresentative of the broader movement. there are a lot of homeless people there.

the question is were you going to leave the park before it got cold or get kicked out by the cops? getting kicked out by the cops is a lot better. the big question is thursday. this is going to be their big two month event. if they come out with much bigger numbers it will send a huge signal. if nobody shows up it could be the end. >> there is another struggle going on here. it is a struggle over what the occupy brand will be. you have progressives and democrats who have embraced it. it has brought equality back into the conversation. they are already positioning as republicans did in the 1960s saying this is is a law and order issue. using the tear gas in oakland. you saw last week against elizabeth warren. >> aligning her with the liberal -- >> liberal drug users in the park. that was a powerful narrative in

the 1960s. if we continue to go down that path where the news of occupy is violent minority in oakland or police clashes or tear gas in the streets, then there is is a risk for democrats who have really embraced this movement going into the election. >> that violence needs to be reported. if these are things going on, it may be a minority. if it were happening in the tea party movement, it would be reported. >> i am not suggesting that it should not be reported but the organizers have a huge stake in protecting this brand. >> what does it represent at this point? >> there are some demands that have been. >> every social movement, history of america has had a

continuum of ideology. this movement is not any different. there are people who want to engage in the 2012 election. there is others who are utopians and want to try to create some totally new society. those are the tensions. where they come down will mean a lot. the question on whether they decide to engage in practical politics will determine whether they are effective or margin alized. >> when the organization first started you saw a lot of policymakers coming outd and saying we support the frustration. as the demands have started to calcify we have started to see a bit of quiet that is really materialized. they are still trying to figure out, okay, am i going to say or back something that i will end up regretting.

>> in trms of moving the party forward. a very strong if undeveloped message. that may be happening on the left. >> the history of social movements suggests in the united states that the policies don't come from in the streets. the streets open up the space for them to be developed. those kids at the counters had nothing to do with what was in the final civil rights act. policymakers were able to come in and forge them. >> if you put that historical analogy in, it is perfect. the chant at the beginning of the movement is what do we want? freedom. when do we want it?

now. that was not about any act. it was a broad thing. then you have the development of sncc and core and groups that then become political action groups under the umbrella of the movement. they are very mindful of that down there. they don't want that. they don't want to be aligned with the politicians who are part of a corrupt system. but, they want someone else to go out and do that hard lobbying work and election work. >> and it's the movement that is is a match that lights the fire rather than the fire that rages across the country. we will be back with more on jerry sandusky who is saying he didn't do it. well, sort of. we will talk about it next. >> i am innocent of those charges. >> innocent? completely innocent and falsely accused in every aspect?

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let's just play a little bit of that interview because i think it will get us in a good place to start. >> i have horsed around with kids. i have showered after workouts.

i have hugged them and touched their leg without intent of sexual contact. >> are you denying that you had any inappropriate sexual contact with any of these underage boys? >> yes, i am. >> deny, deny, deny. that is something we have seen from campaigns earlier in the week. was this a good idea. you're out there saying i was just showering and i may have touched the leg. people are getting more and more creeped out the more they hear this guy. >> is it just a man who is sort of desperate to clear his name? what's the psychology? >> he has wanted to talk a while. i don't know why his attorney advised him this is a good thing to do.

he has given that evidence to them already. if you look at one of the questions that bob asked him, are you sexually attracted to young boys, the fact that it took him 15 to 20 seconds to get no out of his mouth, he had to think about it. it was a terrible interview. he is a sick person. >> if you read the grand jury report. anyone who wants to get a tour of a true horror show, he is also a pathlogical liar in this context. i think no one is going to adopt, given how creepy he was. >> no one is sympathizing. >> i do think in the broader sense of us as an american

soelt. there is a lot of collective american love for this team. you know, the question is how do we stay true to that ideal of innocent until proven guilty across the board even when nation national. >> there is a crime that was committed and not committed. there is also a clear error that was committed by everybody around. and so i think it really touches -- the lesson of a sick

man. >> yesterday on the show i mentioned a story about a equally ghastly case of child abuse -- child sexual abuse in a choir school. the guy who was one of the victims said to me in that story that looking back on it, he wasn't actually angry at the person who had molested him. he thought that was a sick person who needed help. he was angry at the people he referred to as the good germans who knew what was going on. all they had to do to stop it was pick up the phone. >> there seems to be a ton of denial over what they did. >> they also wonder, there was

the intone nation -- there were other victims that were going to come forward. do we expect that we're going to see -- are the victims going to have to be dr are we going to hear their side of the story? >> the indication that we have gotten so far is we have already gotten a series of other accusers that have come out, particularly since the pennsylvania governor has asked if you were involved in some way we ask that you come out and be a part of this case as well. we're going to see this as well. i think john is right. when you read the report, it's enough that you can't read it in one sitting. you have to stop because it is so bad. these details are only going to get worse. the people who did that and did nothing are only going to increase. >> if you can look at one thing that has come out of it, fl was a moral vacuum in the way.

>> we had the financial melt down in 2008. it is not something we have proven adept at. >> that doesn't happen a lot. you have people not practicing what they preach. that is something that people need to hold their officials accountable for. >> the accountability here needs to be at penn state. part of this gets to be the sickness. i say this as the hugest sports fan. it needs to be shut down for a year. the kids who will be hurt by that. >> there needs to be some sense that there are more important things than the sports program.

>> doesn't that fall right into this idea here? we have the they basically get off. the folks at the bottom end up directly paying the brunt of the cost. >> the ones at the bottom are the children who get abused. and if a bunch of kids have to spend one year not playing football because the ncaa and penn state need to send a message that this is not going to be tolerated, you talk about accountability, that is where it has to rest. >> don't just agree that penn state should have to take a year off. but the student athletes should have the option to transfer to another school without punishment. >> fine. >> but it does go to a larger point. even if you look at what happened, part of the biggest challenge is not even just the fact that it happened but the fact that no one has been in prison because no laws were

broken. people were saying -- >> what is the crime and what is not. >> we have more to talk about that coming up. up next, nancy pelosi has a problem with the new title herman cain proclaimed and gave to her. we will tell you what she took issue with. ♪ ♪ ♪ when the things that you need ♪ ♪ come at just the right speed, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ medicine that can't wait legal briefs there by eight, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ freight for you, box for me box that keeps you healthy, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ saving time, cutting stress, when you use ups ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪

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>> what comes with that is he is not often prepared and realizing he is running for president. you can't say the same things on talk radio. it doesn't work that way. i thought it was interesting that pelosi got so angry. she was out there calling the tea party astro tur. if you're going to call someone a name you have got be able to take it. >> and herman cain dealing with the sexual harassment should be more aware of women. nancy pelosi was the first speaker of the house and to call her a princess denigrates who she is and the fact that she wears a pair of brass knuckles. >> i'm not sure that saying i am too old to be a princess is a sign of anger. she seems to be taking it in stride. everyone has been watching the debates. almost every answer that herman cain gives, he says something

that doesn't make sense or is wrong. people have been giving him a pass because he does it bold and simple. he is is a great leader and fun to watch. these things are catching up to him. he is making a derog tory gender term in the midst of a scandal. >> and i will say we will talk much more about herman cain coming up. he of the foot in mouth disease. i want to pivot a little to the new elizabeth warren ad that is out. making the first pitch to a campaign add. i think last week tied her to the liberal arts.

>> my dad sold darpt and when he had a heart attack, my mom went to work so we could keep our house. i have exposed how they are crushing middle class families. it just isn't right. >> john, is this elizabeth warren nipping it in the bud? does she need to nip in the bud that she is an elitist? doesn't understand the struggles of the hard working middle class? >> yes, she does. >> she does need to defend it? i think the ad drew some blood and they know that it did. she would have been running the biospots before having to do it in response to a negative ad from someone else. turns out a lot of republicans, there have been governors

recently. you still win elections in the middle of massachusetts. and she is, even though all of us know elizabeth warren. there are a lot of massachusetts voters who should be with her but do not know who she is and that she has a background that is not connected to either liberal elittism or to radical or what is portrayed as radical occupy wall street and people have to know her story. >> it is a compelling story. >> it is a very compelling story. and it strikes to the heart of why she is in the race. so much of her funding and support has come from outside the city of massachusetts as well and this has played directly to why she is in and why so many people feel she is the right person to take that seat. >> certainly not the last we will see or hear from elizabeth warren. is it time to take a step back and have the party re-evaluate their candidates? maybe.

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there you go. thanks. [announcer:] conocophillips. >> the number one thing not to say when running for president. >> nope. that's a different one. i got to go back and see. i got all this stuff twirling around in my head. >> joining us now is michael steele, msnbc political analyst. thank you for joining us. >> good to be with us. congratulations. >> thank you. what do you make of herman cain and foreign policy based on that last clip we just ran?

>> it wasn't good. and the fact of the matter as, you know, given everything with the conversation being about sexual harassment, the campaign and herman specifically saying let's stop talking about the substance and when asked a substancive question you can't answer, that's not a good thing. >> i got to say, you know, he was asked at a tailgate party yesterday if he maybe had screwed up on libya and his response is genius. we have that and i have to play it. >> do you think the libya comments reinforce that you don't have a tore -- >> 9-9-9. >> what i want to know here and everybody feel free to chime in. i will direct this to you, michael. is this brilliant? is he actually speaking german and saying no, no, no? am i giving him a reprieve?

or is that his only response to anything is to say 9-9 -9. >> i think there was a little german right there. >> you will take it? >> no. the reality of it is it's not being bought by a lot of folks out there. i think the polls are beginning to reflect that. the campaign has suffered a lot of hits, damaging hits. and this is just one more where you sit down in front of an editorial board in milwaukee? you have got to come to your table ready. he was not prepared -- you can't give the excuse that it was a long day. >> as an elder statesman of the party -- >> is it the gray hair?

elder statesman? >> an accomplishment, not an age. do you think this is the end of the cain campaign? >> i will not go out on that particular limb. i will leave that for the voters who will make that decision in six weeks but i think the campaign has done a lot of self-inflicted damage to itself that makes it hard to make the case beyond the primary. that this is going to be a viable candidacy up against barack obama in what will surely be a juggernaut for 2012. >> he had a lot of things twirling around in his head. >> this clip among others is the reason that newt gingrich is rising in the polls. herman cane has not been able to bring specificity to issues. then you see someone like gingrich who has mastered pretty much every issue.

delivery matters. whether or not you can articulate your message to the public is important. they will not research your record. they will not look at what you plan to do unless the way you present it is appealing. >> that is not a delivery problem. but a lack of substance. >> the problem is he doesn't know anything about foreign policy and is showing that over and over again. this is a sarah palin moment. preparing for the republican debates and not knowing anything about foreign policy, having memorized a series of cards. mexico? try to think. what am i supposed to say about mexico? russia? >> which one is that? not that one. >> i have forgotten index card 14 149.a. >> michael, is this a palin moment? >> i think it's -- john hit it right on the head.

>> after the lead up. they got them in the room. he was going to the file cards trying to pull the one that gave the answer on libya. now know what you want to do. >> you mean learn and know? int luktual appetite here that he doesn't seem to have. >> now you are talking about what you know and what you have learned and putting into context of what you want to do. when any question to the case about what was said about newt, you are not thrown the curve ball. you know what the president's position is. the counter point is a, b, c,

and d. that is is a significant point to get to or you should be at. >> michael, sorry, we have polls out now. cane next week is going to have lower poll numbers than he has now? >> one of the reasons why is that conservative voters don't know where to go. mitt romney is not a conservative. people think he has a lot of baggage. i happen to be a fan of a lot of his policy going forward. when it comes down to it he is not putting the time in. no one is asking you to be a foreign policy expert.

barack obama certainly wasn't. you have to put in the research. >> you can't answer libya question by saying there are a lot of things twirling around in the head. >> he has made slip ups. if you are going to run for president it is your responsibility to be proficient in these matters and people have a right to expect that of you. >> that's where the opening is right now for both newt and huntsman. i think that there is still an opportunity for john huntsman to really put this thing into gear for himself. as i said yesterday on morning joe, to get out of the ambassador speak and that attitude and get into the politics to demonstrate clearly not just your capabilities with the issues in europe and your moxy on diplomacy.

>> show us that. i think gingrich and hunts man are in the the right direction. >> i think this is the sexiest and most forceful met fore that anyone has used for john huntsman. he is out with a new campaign aid for our destiny. i wish his campaign pack was des any's child. there is a lot. he keeps being the guy. why don't we know more about this guy? it's a tag line to the ad. >> toss it. >> got a job? sure you will have it next week? >> the world is literally

collapsing and no one has shown up that we can trust as a conservative. >> who actually has a chance the win. >> not some phoney who says one thing and does another. >> could he get in there. >> i think he can. the thing about john huntsman is interesting. he has got two things going for him. depending on how mitt romney decides to play iowa, if he decides to say we're going to go after iowa and does not do well in iowa, that opens up a real opportunity. fewer republican candidates who has not pandered. >> he believes in science apparently, as a big statement from him. >> he has been consistent. issues on foreign policy. you cannot say the same thing for perry and romney or gingrich. that's what john huntsman is trying to show the american people.

you might not agree with everything i say. >> where is that candidate? that candidate has been running now for four months and yet to sh up. >> why don't we know about him? >> in the campaign. the super pack is admitting the failure of the campaign. if you talk to people over the last several weeks, they keep saying where is the super pack? >> where is john huntsman? >> john huntsman we will be back next with more on gabby gi giffords. >> that's up next. ♪

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>> if he would have received some treatment, this probably would not have happened. >> do you ever get angry at what happened to you? >> no, no, no. no. life. life. >> we have a living example of the danger of ineffective gun control laws. jared is still too mentally unfit to stand trial but he was able to buy a gun. joining us now to discuss this is host of the martin show on msnbc. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> i want to talk about this. gabby giffords did an interview, one of her first. the same time that we are paying

attention to her story and her story of gun control laws being ineffective, this there is a system that continues to boggle my mind that support for handgun bans have gone down in october of 2011, it was at 26%. in 1959, it was at 60%. violence increases and people believe that bans are bad. what's the logic there? >> the logic is that criminals don't pay attention to laws. if you impose gun control, what is that going to do for a criminal or maniac? they will find a way to get a gun. that will just prevent regular american citizens who are law abiding from exercising their second amendment rights. >> statistics show that felons who are not able to buy guns are 20 to 30% less likely. >> they also show that gun bans in the d.c. area, violent crime goes up across the country you can see that happening. that's not a statistic we can

measure. >> you are from the more intelligent side of the earth where they have different gun control laws and i wonder what you make of america's fix action. >> you shouldn't be asking me because attacks will be overwhelming on twitter and facebook. there was a horrendous shooting in scottland and in the early 1990s and the immediate reaction of the government was to increase penalties for firearm possession and the result was that it crushed the level of gun ownership and use of guns and crime. when i came here in 2004 to start living here and when i started working permanently in new york, i went to central park summer stage to see a fantastic reggae musician and i started speaking to one of the security guards. it was after the michael jackson documentary and there had been

threats against me. and he said to me if i went to a particular place i could get myself a handgun for $2,000. >> wow. >> and he offered it to me there and then. >> that must have been a big culture shock for you. you are from a country where the police don't carry a gun. they say stop and if i that don't stop they say stop again. >> the point that is often not discussed when you talk about ownership and handling of weapons, most killings that's a statistic which in the uk has been used to persuade people for why they shouldn't actually have them. if you want to shoot in the uk, you can go to a gun club but you cannot possess a gunin your home unless there is a license and it has to be locked in a particular place. you can't just walk around with it. i have been watching the debates and wondering if perry is

carrying a concealed weapon. >> mitt romney would like to know the answer to that. >> you are a military man and have different relationships with firearms and weapons than many of us do. i feel like the dialogue around gun control in this country is very much dominated by the pro gun lobby. and why that is? we are having an either or conversation on how to address gun control. every day in america, 34 people are murdered by handguns. every single day. the vast majority are actually by illegal handguns. but that still should not take away the fact that we have far

too many guns legal and illegal that are falling into the wrong hands. the fact that we have such minimal background checks that exist for people is unbelievable how quickly and how -- for how little money someone can get their hands on it. >> how is it possible that a congress woman gets shot in the head, a little girl gets shot and within five minutes and debate about guns disappears? how is that possible? >> it is hugely puzzling to me. 3300 felons regained gun rights since 1995. and there is no broader conversation though, that we have got revisit who gets to own a gun. >> there is a big broad cultural

thing that has happened in american society and that is a good thij. we had success as they experience crime in their lives, the cities have gotten safer, the country has gotten safety. much of the time it is in underprivileged community. this is a theoretical debate. as long as they see overall that new york is safer, washington is safer. the urgency is leeched out because there is actually a big story that has happened with respect to crime in america. >> and safety. >> there is a commence reality that criminals won't respect laws. no matter what you do to law-abiding citizens it will not

affect crazy people. >> that's because they are british and the british are more civilized. >> the bottom line is -- >> it works all over the world. >> it doesn't work in cities across the united states. >> the jury is out but i have to thank all of you for coming and taking part in this robust discussion. i appreciate all of you guys for being on the show. you will be back here in a couple of hours for your own show on msnbc. and i will be right back with my postscript. 5 ♪

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and now on to my postscript. for several weeks now the writers' room at "saturday night live" has been given the gift of a republican party so kmeedically inept that the jokes have practically written themselves. there's the governor of texas who after weeks of commentary

could not remember that yes, the gartment of energy exists and yes he would like to shut it down. and there is a pizza magnet who can speak with greater influencecy about pep roanies than he can put together a sentence about the middle east. we don't just throw stuff on there, we actually test. do you have too much sausage, too much beef? we want to balance the flavor out. it is more scientifically developed than it might appear. on libya cain could only offer got all this stuff twirling around in my head. these candidates are not serious. we cannot be a serious country able to tackle serious problems if we continue to consider such comedians presidential candidates. the line between comedy and tragedy is, in many cases, indistinguishable. that does it for me today. i will see you back here tomorrow at noon eastern.

until then you can follow us on twitter. andrea mitchell reports is next. andrea? >> thanks. coming up next, the seven second delay that has everyone talking. herman cain's pregnant pause on what he should have had as an easy question. plus a controversial pipeline that set off a political fire storm. and the occupy wall street protesters are in a fire off with new york city police demanding reentry to their tent city. 5 i have your business travel forecast. the cold front is the focus of areas of rain today. it will not be too heavy. steady light rain. d.c., the rain will be later in

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right now, cain freeze.