president. maybe herman cain isn't so bad after all. thank you very much for watching. dylan's here to take us forward. dylan, it's yours. >> i felt, martin, like there was something relieving in your soul in getting that off your chest. was i correct in identifying that? >> you are a prescient and incisive man. >> your whole energy -- your whole energetic vibration in the 30 seconds before and after you absolutely annihilated newt gingrich -- >> it's just the facts on the record, and the fact that all of us who work in the professional journalistic community have to sit there and be harangued at virtually every single debate and accused of misrepresentation and falsification, and on occasions, it just wears thin. and when you do look at the facts of this man's record, i'm afraid it's not that impressive. >> yeah. there it is. thank you, mr. bashir. >> thank you, dylan. >> all right. our show starts right now.

i have horsed around with kids. i have showered after workouts. i have hugged them and i have touched their legs. >> are you sexually attracted to young boys? to underage boys? >> am i sexually attracted to underage boys? >> yes. >> sexually attracted? you know, i enjoy young people. i love -- i love to be around them. >> are you a pedophile? >> no. >> not exactly the bold proclamation we'd expect from a man wrongly accused. good afternoon to you. i am dylan ratigan. disgraced former penn state assistant football coach jerry sandusky last night with bob costas on this network, in an interview, that begs the question, where's this guy's

lawyer? except, he was sitting right there in the room. and developing now, two new reports, one from "the new york times," citing as many as ten additional victims that have come forward. and we're getting confirmation from another nonprofit agency, the fresh air fund, that sandusky housed children on behalf of the fresh air fund, with each passing day, this is a story of betrayal and shattered identity, values, and life that is becoming bigger and uglier. i want to bring in our tuesday megapanel to help us absorb these latest developments. karen finney, susan del percio, and jimmy williams. you're shaking your hand, i think, channeling america right now, karen. >> it's shocking. i mentioned this before on this network. i actually worked with children who'd been sexually abused. actually, i'd prefer to say that

they were raped. because i think these kids have to endure such a violent act that we should be able to say, as adults, admit what they have to deal with. and it's stunning. it is stunning the that anybody who saw anything or heard anything didn't immediately go to the police. and as you said, every single day, we're finding out some new piece of information. and again, i think it's important that we talk about this as what it is. i think that's important for the victims, that they are not re-victimized in this process. they were raped by a predator. it was not just abuse or fondling, or whatever, taking a shower, or whatever. they were raped. >> and it's also important that everyone sees that there are consequences for everyone along the way that knew something. these kids at the the school, at penn state, and all around the country, frankly, are looking at this and they need to see there are consequences for keeping your silence. that it's wrong. you can't just report it to your coach and that's acceptable. you have to make sure that they don't belong in that all-boys'

club of, you know, the sports teams. and like karen said, it's absolutely unacceptable. and you have to call it what it is. >> and it's important for the victims to see, if you come forward, there's consequences. you will be believed, you'll be treated with respect. >> that's a great point. >> what's interesting about that is, in the path towards resolution, which is really what we're beginning to talk about, the way you treat the victims in that process determines or is very influential as to whether the resolution process is more damaging and more destructive to more people, or whether the resolution process ultimately yields some sense of justice, to susan's point, along the chain, and some sense of soul searching and reflection among those that are in -- not just the penn state community, but, i think, all of us who look to power as

the keeper of our values, when it has become clear that power, whether it's at penn state, or in many other instances, preserves itself pretty much at any cost, jimmy. >> this is not an easy thing, for anybody. i think a lot of americans probably who have been sexually and mentally abused in their lives -- i was. and you don't know what it's like until it happens to you and you don't know how to react until you react. i didn't do anything about it. i didn't do a damn thing about it, nothing, for years, i let it keep happening. and you know what, it didn't make me gay, it didn't make me screwed up in the head, it didn't make me volatile, juit's just a part of my life. chris matthews the other day said something very interesting on his show. when you walk into an institution and you let them tell you how to live your morals and your life, then you'll fail. because you've been to what

they're telling you to do. i went to the citadel as an undergraduate, and the whole point of the citadel is to walk into that school, let them break you down and build you up into, quote, the citizen soldier. i let them do that to a large degree, but i sure ass hell kep a lot of jimmy williams in there. i know what i went through, and i didn't tell my parents or my priest, i didn't tell anybody. i moved on with my life. doesn't make that kid better than me or me better than me. but you don't know until it happens to you. if you know about it, you've got a duty to tell people. if you don't, you're just as bad as the person violating that kid. >> and it goes to -- just to tie a ribbon on this from a legal standpoint, it really makes me think about the conversation yesterday with beau biden, who's the attorney general in delaware, where they have some of the strictest mandatory reporting standards, where if you see something and do not say something, you would now face criminal penalties yourself.

and to the extent to which those mandatory disclosures and mandatory penalties don't exist nationally, i would hope to job that this would be the catalyst for this that. i want to turn to the other big story in america this afternoon. developing really here in new york, but also across the country, occupy wall street supporters vowing to re-take zuccotti park after the nypd ousted them in a surprise overnight raid. even members of the media could not get answers from the cops. >> step back. >> it looks like the press line's right here. >> it's here because you're standing here in violation of what i'm telling you. step back. step back. >> into the street? >> step back. step back. >> the nypd reports some 200 arrests so far, including reporters from "the new york times" and npr. right now the occupiers remain in a standoff with the mayor's office. of course, new york is just the latest city in what for all intents and purposes, appears to be a coordinated attempt to halt

this movement. if you look at portland, denver, oakland, across the board, i sort of watched all this and thought to myself that it struck me, honestly, as foolish. and the reason it struck me as foolish, it's so clear, whether going back to the tea party or the obama wave, or now with the occupation movement, the american people know that their government is corrupt. they know that 94% of the time, the person who gets the most money wins. they know that you can't rely on any of these people, because they've tried it for decades. and it struck me that it was sort of silly to think that, oh, well, if you can just get the protesters out of zuccotti park or if you can just get the protesters out of wherever it is, that this will go away -- >> but what makes them -- if they stay in the park, what makes that continue? we talked about this. it's going to probably be social media that -- >> very possibly, exactly. >> but staying in the park does not necessarily mean that things are going to change. >> but i think to dylan's point,

the park is a part of it. this movement is not about, just about the park. i wrote about this a few weeks ago in "the hill." look at what happened in israel. for the first time in their history, they had these domestic protests. just because they did away with the with tent camps, the legislation -- >> but you're making susan's point, that the voice that will be heard, whether there's people in zuccotti park or not, right? >> but the fact is, the mayor was responsible for keeping a certain amount of order, just like it has been in other cities -- >> well, that's for debate. we can debate what the mayor's actions in terms of arresting reporters. i mean, the actual -- i don't want -- >> i don't think anyone intended to -- i mean, i don't think the orders were arrest some reporters if you can. >> but here's what i don't want too -- here's what i don't want to do, is i -- here's what the thing is. we're going to devolve this into an argument about the cops at zuccotti park. let's talk about something else, honestly, because it's a short show. i'm more interested in the broader thing. >> i think the most important -- the most important thing is to keep it moving forward. and like we talked about, in

social media and other ways. again, taking an -- how are these people going to harness everything that they are -- >> i think they are. >> but to what end? >> i think that's dylan's point. >> here's the issue with the way you present it, as i see it. this is why i actually think what you're saying is offensive to those people, and it's because when you have a bunch of people who have been getting fed what are effectively poisoned cookies, so the teachers have been feeding the kindergartners for 20 or 30 years. a health care system that's really expensive doesn't work. a banking system that's really expensive, it's sucking the money out of the system. an education system, all these things. and when the people go to the park and say, we're not eating poisoned cookies anymore, and the people making the poisoned cookies, not that that's you, but the people making the poisoned cookies say to the children, well, then, what kind of cookies do you want, that is incredibly offensive to the people eating the cookies. >> but they still have to eat something. >> but it is responsibility of those making -- go ahead, karen. >> most importantly, and i think

they know this, nationally, what the occupy movement, and it is a movement that will exist whether or not they tear this zuccotti park down and the 99% movement, they need to realize, they've already had an impact. >> of course. >> so keep going. >> of course. >> keep going. because, you know what, they have to -- >> i want to read a quick statement from buddy roemer and then i'll get out of here. buddy roemer, as you know, who's running for president today says, "the actions of the city today have confirmed the young people's worst fears about the establishment. they will not listen. after all, the establishment is safely protected in the tower of top 1%. some of us may disagree on the solutions proposed by these young people, but i totally support their right to assemble and to speak freely about their concerns. i do not believe we need bigger government," this is governor roemer, "we need better government, fairer government, honest government, and non-corrupt government." and i think really governor roemer captured the essence of this. so i guess to you, governor

roemer, i'll say, amen, even though i'm not really a practicing christian, but, you know. coming up here on "the d.r. show show," ready or not, here it comes. the pentagon making a defensive stand. plus, some special guests helping us with a big announcement about get money out, as nearly a quarter million of us have now signed on to take on this task. and take a close look at this amazing google maps image. we'll tell you why a remote area in the gobi desert is being called china's area 51. maybe the truth is out there. mine was earned over the south pacific in 1943. vietnam, 1967. i got mine in iraq, 2003. u.s.a.a. auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation, because it offers a superior level of protection and because u.s.a.a.'s commitment to serve the military, veterans, and their families is without equal.

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all right. the countdown clock has begun, and i'm not referring to the thanksgiving turkey. i'm referring to another turkey of sorts, the debt supercommittee. why call some of the most respected lawmakers in washington a turkey, you ask? well, because even if the group does manage to muster up a deal or cut more than $1 trillion in debt, the cuts will do nothing to address the real problems in our country in banking, education, health care, trade, and the tax code, all of which are sold at auction, and have put us this in mess. after two months of work, even a basic deal still looks unlikely. the six republicans and six democrats have until midnight next wednesday to reach a deal of some kind. if not, it's no thanksgiving for them. the automatic trigger kicks in, cutting $1.2 trillion across the board, minus social security and medicaid. a major sticking point in discussions is defense spending. if no deal is made, there are automatic defense cuts of $550

billion. and according to defense chief leon panetta, that would be a disaster, as he sees it. he writes, "we would have to reduce the size of the military sharply. rough estimates suggest after ten years of these cuts, we would have the smallest ground force since 1940, the smallest number of ships since 1915, and the smallest air force in its history." conventional wisdom says the right and left can't agree on anything, but this afternoon we find ourselves with a tea party republican and a democratic congressman who agree on this -- the pentagon budget can no longer be off-limits. joining us now, democratic congressman mike quigley and tea party republican congressman, mike kaufman, who has 21 years of military service. and congressman kaufman, i will begin with you. what is the distinction between the debate of how much we spend? we spend a lot, we spend a little, whatever it might be, and how we actually spend it,

and how critical is the distinction between the amount of money that's allocated and actually what you do with the money to provide security. >> you know, i think it's very important to take a look at what we're doing. and i think that, you know, no department of the federal government ought to be off-limits from cuts and from efficiencies. and i think everything ought to be on the table to conclude defense. i would never advocate anything that compromised the defense capability of the united states, but i think that the military's too top-heavy. we've gone in the wrong direction with nation building. we've got overseas military bases we ought to be able to look at, and we need to examine our force structure, and see what can be moved into the guard and reserve. >> the biggest barrier to this, congressman quigley, would seem to be money. i cannot think of an industry that delivers more pork to every congressional district in america. and i defy any congressperson to

stand up and put their sacred cow in their district in florida, texas, new york, wherever it might be. how do you circumvent the incredible role of money in politics in defending the pork that is delivered through the defense budget to every congressional district in america? >> look, i think you have to take the message directly to the public. i try to tell people that the department of defense won't even be able to be audited for another six or seven years. and i remind them that there were 45 terrorist attacks on our country, threats since 9/11. they have all been foiled. not by large ground forces or super weapon systems, but by good intelligence and good police work. we need to be smarter about how we defend our country, not just throw money at it. the choices the department of defense make right now make us less safe, not more safe. >> and to that end, congressman coffman, that believe ifs you

spend more money than anyone else, regardless of how you spend the money, we spend the most in the world on had beon h care, spent the most on education, spent the most on energy, yet our systems and efficiencies continue to be abominab abominable. the question is, how do you politically overcome those who correlate to cutting spending to cutting service and cutting effectiveness? >> well, i think we're going to have a tough argument on our hands. i mean, i think if we make the cuts intelligently -- now, i worry about the effects if we don't come to an ingredient with a super committee in those cuts. i think that's pretty deep. but i put forward cuts to the super committee on defense that, again, i think won't compromise our capability and i think you're right. it's just not a function of how much you spend on defense in terms of your commitment, but it's really what you spend it on. it's important to be tough, but we've also got to be smart.

and i don't think, probably, for a long time, we've been very smart. >> and congressman quigley, i'll give you the last word. you're on the elevator with a fellow congressperson who could not disagree with you more. what do you say to him on the elevator ride to turn him to your side? >> i think i quote secretary gates who said things like that there's 30 levels between the chain of command to an officer in the field, a member in the field, that we don't need 11 argt carrier strike forces. of course, there's $500,000 a year we spend on musical bands. not making us safer. >> congressman, i wish you the best of luck. and i hope that you are part of a new generation of legislators who do, indeed, seek not only to work together, but to do it in a way that is issue specific and resource intelligent. thank you, guys. >> thanks for having us. >> and i want to turn our attention here to trying to get more of those kinds of debates in this country. something that we all know is

effectively impossible, as we've all frustrated ourselves to no end over the past, well, decades, about trying to resolve everything from health care to banking or whatever. but we know that if we don't get money out, we won't be able to solve those problems. so, today, on this show, we will introduce a new plan, a plan that features, well, we, you, me, and 244,000 others who signed on to the get money out foundation, who started to address the monumental task of drafting and passing a constitutional amendment to separate business and state, as sure as they separated church and state a thousand years ago and get money out of american politics once and for all. we, you and me, along with so many others, started this fire. and now it is time to take it to the next level. our team is growing and the resources available to do what we want a growing with it.

the get money out foundation headed by our own jimmy williams is now merging with the democracy fund. they will form a new circle called united republic, and their first campaign for 2012, i'm excited about this, i hope you are, it will be, you guessed it, get money out! let me introduce you to the new team. you all know jimmy, but i would love for you to meet nick pendaman and josh silver. they will be joining jimmy, or jimmy will be joining them, they'll be working together. anyway, we'll begin with you. why did you think this was such a good idea? >> well, well, when you've got 250,000 people e-mailing you a lot, you tend to go, whoa, whoa, hold on, nelly, this is a little too much for me. your strength is knowing your weakness. here's what i know. i've got 250,000 people that are pissed off, a lot more than that, i think. i think you think so too. there's no infrastructure for it, except for -- oh, but there

is. these yahoos. the good news is, i like yahoos. so we've been talking, and one of the things i've been saying to the 250,000 in weekly updates, per se is, i'm talking to people, i want to hear what you have to say. the people i've been talking to care about the same thing we care about. so it makes total sense. and i'm pretty pumped up about it, to be honest with you. >> and again, you two have a significant background -- nick and vi known each other for years. josh and i met each other more recently. but the credentials, which i invite everybody to, obviously, look at was we move forward are substantial. the fact of the matter is, you guys have what we don't have. and what we have not had. which is the ability to actually organize, mobilize, and move forward with a massive coalition to advocate a constitutional amendment. and i'm interested, guys, i'll start with you, josh, how is it and wh it is that you believe are the critical -- is the special sauce, and how does united republic sort of make that thing fly? >> that's my line. >> all right. >> well, we've got to build an

army. history shows, you don't have any kind of substantial, real reform in government unless you have millions of people who are pissed off and they're not going to take it anymore. that means we need a communications war room and we've got to show every single time something happens in washington or across the country, how does money play a role in it? we've got to investigate. we've got to help uncover the dirt and show how it's hurting regular people, people watching this show. we need to build this army of millions. we've got 300,000 people now, including the folks who have joined through this show. we need to triple it in the next few months. we need energy. >> and really central to that, nick, goes to your background, again, as you ran the investigative unit at "the huffington post," you've been a very powerful and successful investigative journalist for most of your career. how critical is it that we are able to better reveal the role that money is playing to catalyzing what's going to happen? >> i think it's essential. but it's not just going to be us doing it. the point is, this is really a two-way street.

when we use about the we, we're talking about the rural we. this is the age where the internet enables us to have communication with the 250,000 people who are now coming on board with millions more. they've got to be a part of this process as we move forward. but certainly, you know, in our mind, the scandal of washington, as we just heard with those congressmen, is actually the everyday scandal. it's not jack abramoff stuff, it's not stuff that's violating the law. it's stuff that's perfectly within the limits of the law, but it's so bending the agenda of the united states government that the country is no longer reacting appropriately to the challenges that we all face. >> and if you were to look at the digital wave, as it were, the new resources -- because people come up to me and they say, listen, dylan, rich people have been working with the government to screw everybody over for as long as there have been rich people in government. the fortaffarofor pharaohs and but there are tools that everybody involved in this, the millions of us have at our disposal, and it sounds like

when you talk about connecting, you are really in a situation where you guys can reach out to everybody on these lists and find out where they are, what they want to do, and help them do more of it. can you give us just a little bit more of a sense of what you think your capabilities are when it comes to empowering people? >> yeah, we want to find out really what people have planned in their own communities, if they need resources to get him kick-started. we can provide those resources in the form of small grants, and then we can use our communications office and our connections to the media to highlight the work that they're doing. i think back on this woman named doris hatick, granny d., who ten years ago at the age of 92 decided to walk across the country on behalf of campaign finance reform. and by god, she made it after a year and collapsing in the desert and everything else. my point of bringing her up is that that's the kind of action, i think, that we're looking for. we're not just looking for clique activism, not just for people to sign petitions, but to

think how they can express themselves and their moral values on this issue. >> what do you think are the core values? >> we are no longer willing to have a government that's bought and sold by the highest bidder. this is about returning to the core values that the founding fathers of this country brought to this great nation, and that everyone has a vote and the needs of the many supersedes the needs of the few. about $20 million is spent annually on the entirety of thaez good groups out in the field, across the country, for trying to fix this problem of money in politics. we need to blow the lid off that. bring way more money in. get money granted out to people doing good work, and we have to bring a real bona fide reform movement to this country. >> if you look at the history of constitutional amendments, it is the capital of human beings that ultimately changes the legislation. it is only isn't the alignment of millions of americans that

anything like this ever happens. >> isn't it interesting that when it comes to the constitutional amendments, it was always about somebody who didn't have something, right? african-americans, women, et cetera. >> 18-year-olds and -- >> exactly. so now, what i am seeing is is i'm seeing african-americans, women, 18-year-olds, republicans, democrats, gays, straights, apoliticals and everybody's pissed off. good! >> we'll leave it on that. i'm going to the leave it on that. we'll leave it right there. you'll be hearing more not only from jimmy but from josh and nick. they, i know, are planning a significant survey of everybody involved, so, again, now is the time to gather yourselves, tell your friends, and prepare to engage in a much more organized and dynamic way, in a way that i could never quite possibly deliver, but i know that these guys can. and i'm really excited to have them in custody of all of our efforts to make this happen. congratulations to you guys, and thank you very much, from -- on my behalf, for your efforts to

make this happen. congratulations, jimmy, josh, and nick. >> thank you. >> again, like us, united republic believes that democracy is not for sale. be part of this movement, tell your friends about this movement. it is a simple, singularly focused movement of principle to get money out. check out unitedrepublic.org or the campaign itself where the amendments are popping up at getmoneyout.com. we're back right after this. [ male announcer ] truth is, most sinus formulas don't treat a cough. really? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus sinus liquid gels fights sinus symptoms plus cough. you're good. [ male announcer ] thanks. that's the cold truth!

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lazy people on social services, a spree of -- a spree of borrowed money. that, how the greek people are being portrayed as their economy, a little smaller than the size of dallas, texas, with more debt than anybody can comprehend, no capital requirements for the banks, they can give as much money as they want. but like wall street, the streets of athens are like a crime scene. the greek people, victims of a fraud and cover-up. and our next guest argues that goldman sachs is the one holding

the smoking gun. if it sounds familiar, it should. gregg pallas is a renowned investigative reporter and author of the new book "vultu "vultures' picnic." greg, how is it that a bank can lend money to a country that has an economy smaller than dallas at a level that is this big? >> well, what you're talking about, you're not talking about a loan, you're talking about a crime. greece is a crime scene, dylan. what happened is, the real story is that you don't have a bunch of olive pit-spitting greeks that retire when they're teenagers and are too lazy to show up for more than a half-hour day of work. that's the line that they're selling us. in other words, that the victims, they're trying to punish and blame the victims of the crime. the crime is this -- goldman sachs, beginning in 2001, 2002, the last

governments, they cut a deal to secretly take euros out of the greek treasury, convert them to yen, convert them back to euros. this is through some fancy derivative action. goldman takes a multi-billion dollar loss. the greek government gets a gain. there's no deficit in the greek treasury. it's only 3%. the greek economy looks good. goldman doesn't take billions of dollars in losses. it's a scam. it's a fraud. they've cut a secret deal to get that money back and then some. and by the way, fraud ain't cheep these days. goldman charged about $300, $400 million to pull off this scam, the problem is -- >> but, again, and goldman's not here to represent themselves, but have you addressed these accusations to them directly? >> oh, indeed, i have. remember, i worked for bbc television. we do investigative reporting. i don't think it's legal under patriot act four in the united states, but we have to go to goldman sachs. believe me, they have a right to reply. i've called them.

i've actually stood in their front door trying to grab someone. they don't want to answer these charges whatsoever. they put out a baloney statement. they admitted that they did currency exchanges for the greek government. currency exchanges. i used to do racketeering investigations for the u.s. government. and you'll read that in "vultures' picnic." the thing is, this is the kind of stuff, fraud on the market. they hid these transactions. they made it appear that the greek economy was not in deep, deep trouble. that's a fraud. we used to -- we used to, you know, read guys their rights, tell them to spread 'em and march them out of those buildings. today, you know, today these are not vultures anymore. that rick perry asked me last night to change my book from "vultures' picnic" to "job creators' picnic." so now goldman can say they're doing god's work. it's a fraud, it's a scam. now instead of having to pay, you know, 3% to borrows, they have to pay 9, 12, 15% to

borrow. it's insane. the average greek family has $14,000 a year in interest payments to pay now because the fraud was uncovered. >> but you make it seem -- hi, it's susan del percio here. but you make it seem that they have no accountability whatsoever. you want to put stuff on goldman, i'm with you, but you have to admit that greece is somewhat responsible, and they got themselves into this mix by themselves. and so did a lot of other countries in europe. >> what do you mean "they?" you mean the people in the street? >> the greek government, which represents the the people of greece, are responsible as well. just -- >> there was a crime committed. when a crime is committed -- >> understood, greg, but was it -- to susan's point, was not complicit in the committing of that crime the greek government. in other words, goldman sachs could not go into greece without the complicit participation of the greek leadership, who had the incentive to retain their jobs in greece to appearing to

be doing their jobs for the greek people, and basically going into collusion with the banks to create the illusion of doing something for the people. and is that not really what most of these sovereign nations are doing, where the politicians are complicit with the bankers in orchestrating financial engineering for sovereign countries, such that the banks can make money, the government can retain power, and the people get screwed? >> well, in iceland, what they did is they arrested the prime minister when the flimflam there was uncovered with the banks. you grab the criminals. you don't charge the victims. they're bankrupting the victims and letting the criminals walk. goldman still has its nearly half billion dollars in fees in its pocket. so the victims are being charged. i'm sorry, it's the criminals, the guys committing the fraud who should be charged. it's the vultures who should be charged. >> listen, i agree with that. it's been an interesting game of ping-pong and we'll wrap this up between those who blame the banks, susan, and those who

blame the government. bloomberg will say, it's the government who told the banks to do this, occupy wall street will say, no, it's the banks who did this. the interesting thing is, they're both doing it. >> blame to go around. >> the political leader with the banking system are -- that's what they did! i don't know what to tell you. >> why are victims being charged? >> because the banks and the governments are in charge. >> that's right. >> at least we know why. greg, look forward to the book "vultures' picnic," greg palast. the megapanel, a peculiar day, but a fine part. it was one part jimmy and one part you guys. you kind of got the short end of the stick, today, karen. >> i don't think so. >> but you look awesome. >> it's always a joy to be here with you guys. after this, strange patterns visible from space revealed in china's gobi desert. we'll tell you about the mystery and the conspiracy theories, next. ♪

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i believe that what we're looking for is in the x-files. i'm more certain than ever that the truth is in there. >> moulder may be right. the truth may be out there, and there might be china. google earth has captured these amazing imagines of giant structures in china's gobi desert. the patterns visible from space are spread out 93 miles from the headquarters of china's space programs. conspiracy theorists are having a field day with the find. and now some are even calling it china's area 51. this one shows enormous consentic circles with three jet parked smack dab in the center. and then, perhaps, the strangest of them all, it's a little hard to see, but these are thousands of lines intersecting into a giant grid that stretches nearly 18 miles.

the big question, of course, what are these images of? well, believers wonder if they're runways and targets for some ufos. some researchers suggest it could be china's latest secret military testing facilities. so let's get this straight. either aliens are coming for us or china is coming for us. for now i say we go with aliens. next, the right to express yourself under attack. why our guest, matt siegel, argues new laws are making it tougher for students to vote. what's better than gold ?

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with thousands of young americans spearheading occupy wall street protests every day, it would be very unwise to label our generation as an apathetic one. yet it is a sad testament to our electoral process, mr. chairman, that so many of the protesters involved literally tell us that they find camping out an easier and more productive form of political engagement here in 2011 than they do the process of casting a ballot. >> that was our time's matthew siegel on capitol hill just yesterday speaking to congress on the impact of stricter voting rights on the young. two-thirds of states have introduced bills, effectively making voting more difficult, by

imposing voter i.d. restrictions and limiting voter registration. the moves could affect 5,000 potential voters who live out of state while they're at universities and colleges. supporters say the new laws are necessary to stop voter fraud at the polls. our next guest has a different view. and breaking it down with us today, fresh off his trip from washington, d.c., matt siegel. good to see you again. is there any validity, as you see it, to the fraud argument? >> in its entire history, indiana has never been able to prove one case of voter fraud. in the state of kansas, there have been more ufo sightings than voter fraud. voter fraud, essentially, does not exist. and the truth of the matter is the real deterrent for voter fraud is the felony conviction and the five years in prison as well as the hefty fine for committing it, not the fact that these i.d. laws that just make it needlessly complicated for people to vote are stoppi inpin.

>> you said before we came out, when it comes to the young, the jim crow laws are back. what are the solutions, at this point, to defend the voter laws of those that are threatened by this. >> one, we need more uniform standards. because we have 50 different states with 50 different laws and certain states can allow for partisan manipulation. where they say, you know, we know we can't win the election on issues, so we're going to make it particularly difficult for one group to register to vote. so let's allow people to vote in texas with their concealed right to carry license, but not a student i.d. that's exactly what they've done. two is, we obviously need to modernize the voter registration process. my generation finds it insane that you can bank online, you can pay bills online, taxes, you can buy and sell things online, yet you can't register to voton line, except in eight or nine states now, and not all have gone into effect. and lastly, we need to make sure that colleges and universities

step up and do more to register young people. because right now they're not fulfilling their duty. in fact, they have circumvented registering students at freshman orientation or with matriculation, which they should be doing, because they claim it's an administration burden or it costs too much. but as far as i'm concerned, they can't be doing enough. it's part of their mission. >> we've only got a few seconds left, but i want to make sure that i get this. your analysis of the dispersal and disruption in zuccotti park, and more broadly the impact on the occupation and the obvious increased aggression they are facing across the country from police forces? >> well, my take on this is as follows -- people who question my generation as an apathetic one, you need to look at all the energy. what's so disgusting about all these voting rights problems is that young people are no longer viewing voting as an effective outlet to express their voice in society. but at the end of the day, what is so insidious about that is we

only have one person, one vote in a democracy. so if we don't vote, we'll never be able to hold our politicians accountable and to hire and fire them. >> and even if we do vote, if 94% of the time the person who wins is the one who raises the most money, we are participating in a fraud that is an auction while we're being told it's an election. >> just note this. even whether zuccotti park is the place, it's a victory, because we've changed the message in that we know government's bought off and we can't keep it that way. >> andbecomes the number one issue. matt, it's a pleasure. congratulations on what appeared to be certainly a privilege to be able to testify the way -- >> got to keep fighting. >> thanks, dylan. >> thank you. we are back right after.

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well, we've talked a lot about big money and sports with penn state and their scandal. well, now david goodfriend has a daily rant on how money and influence is creating yet another injustice in the sports world. >> thanks, dylan. we americans love sports, but we pay for that love affair through government subsidies that would make most wall street bankers blush. take stadiums, for example. billions of your taxpayer dollars have gone into building stadiums for professional sports teams. tax breaks, professional sports leagues enjoy non-profit tax status. they have their very own anti-trust exemption written into federal law. and the list goes on. with all these government benefits showered on professional sports leagues, you might think that the average american sports fan would get a lot in return, right? wrong.

in what has to be the most obnoxious punk fake to the fan, sports leagues actually prevent fans from having access to the games that all of us help to finance. they're called sports blackouts, and they work like this -- if a stadium has not sold out a couple days before the game, the league can tell local broadcasters not the air the game. the problem is, ticket price have said going way up. the average nfl ticket is now 77 bucks. economic times are tough, people can't afford those ticket prices. so when cities particularly hard hit by the recession like cincinnati, tampa, or jacksonville, the number of blacked out nfl games has skyrocketed. last season, 26 nfl games were black out and 22 games the year before, way above the national average. so if you're unemployed in cincinnati and can't afford a ticket to the game, you go home to watch it on tv, only to find that the game is blacked out. you helped pay for the stadium, but can't watch the game. it's beyond unfair.

all that is bad enough, but it gets worse. in the 1970s, sports leagues and broadcasters lobbied the fcc to establish the sports blackout rule. it says that fans can't get that game any other way, so in other words, the federal government makes sure that when a sports league orders a blackout, the fan has absolutely positively no way to get that game. talk about corporate welfare run amuck. well, some friends of mine and i have decided to do something about it. a couple years ago we started a nonprofit advocacy group called sportsfans.org to give fans a voice in public policy affecting sports. this week, we and four other public interest groups filed a petition at the fcc to end the sports blackout rule. we think that the federal government should not be propping up an anti-consumer practice, such as sports blackouts. in anything, it should be trying end to the practice. if leagues want to sell out games, they can lower ticket

prices, just like airlines do to make sure that planes fly full. if you'd like to learn more, go to www.sportsfans.org. join us! after all, as long as dylan ratigan and others are trying to give people a stronger voice in our government, we might as well start with the one thing that americans love most, sports. >> isn't it interesting in sports, whether it's the relationship with the ncaa or the college business, everything you just described with the acceptance of these blackouts, that sports that we really hold on a pedestal of competition and fairness and equal opportunity, and may the best man or woman win, are the ones that we indulge the most in game rigging to preserve and perpetuate their business. >> it isizatisidizization pure and simple. >> we don't have enough time for it. i agree with you. i agree with you. that's all i have to say about