the u.s. as a great opportunity. >> now, i say that because this week -- or was it last week -- he said americans are lazy. >> we have been a little bit lazy over the last couple of decades. >> i don't think that describes america. >> we have taken for granted, well, people are going to want to come here and we aren't out there hungry, selling america. >> i don't think he gets what's happening in this country. >> and we think we can do better than we are doing now. >> in fact, we are the most productive nation in the world. >> political chatter is calling a tight horse race for the gop nomination but a stealth campaign is under way between president obama and the stallion called inevitable, mitt romney. joining me former congressman harold ford, junior, retired u.s. army captain now author wes moore. thank you for coming.

>> absolutely. >> thank you. >> we have been hearing about the inevitability of mitt romney. it sounds increasingly like he is going to be the nominee if you listen to the white house especially. in this week alone the romney campaign has launched an obsession campaign which is ostensibly to prove that the white house is obsessed with mitt romney being the nominee. then there was a çtit for at tt time earlier in the week between the two candidates. on tuesday romney said, sometimes i don't think president obama understands america. i say that because this week -- or was it last he said americans are lazy. i don't think that describes america. >> the obama campaign said only mitt romney would encourage -- criticize the president for encouraging ceos to promote the united states abroad. they seem to have crowned wayner. should we follow in line?

is mitt romney the heir apparent? harold? >> i think it's smart to begin to think of him as the strongest candidate because he is. if one of the other candidates emerges or someone enters the race which is probably unlikely now they may have to readjust. six or seven candidates now, romney has the most experience. he's weathered the most storms. if you look at the head-to-head match-up he appear it is most formidable. it's smart for the white house to think about it in these terms. >> romney had some trouble. every time a candidate generates attention, michele bachmann, herman cain, everyone jumps on the anyone but romney trail. he's been back and forth on issues over the years and i think his inability to pull away from the pack. look nourks newt gingrich is rising up to meet him immediately. >> but he's still there. >> absolutely. he's steady.

>> the white house has a stake in mitt romney being the nominee and mitt romney is pushed forward to be the guy that will end up thereç come convention time. >> part of the benefit for the white house is if you look at recent polling obama is beating romney in a head-to-head match up by five points. he's as 49%. this election could be a piece of cake. in many ways the white house wants rom knee as the nominee. >> you see it on two levels. this works for romney because he doesn't want to fight herman cain, rick santorum on the issues. he wants to focus on the prize of the general election. for the president this works because he doesn't have a primary opponent. he needs to energize the democratic base. >> mitt romney, on the energy level, i'm not sure. i think the white house would be happy to run against herman cain or rick perry in terms of energy

level and getting the democratic face out. if you talk to folks because the gop is so conservative mitt romney is pushed in a direction rightwards in a way i think even he didn't expect. >> exactly right. the mitt romney of eight months ago is scarier to the white house than the mitt romney now. you have seen deviations in terms of policy. you heard romney talking vouchers for veterans. the white house would love to have the idea that veterans right over seas and then have to use vouchers to claim health care? this is the type of mitt romney the president wants to debate with. >> the most aggressive attack on choice in years. crazy anti-immigrant comments. >> illegals i think. the repetitive references to illegals. >> but they are illegal. they are breaking the law. >> ifç you are looking to win e hispanic population, the term illegals is coded.

in a way it's derogatory. it may be factual. but he has to pivot off that rhetoric and say to hispanic americans i will represent you, too. >> there is a way to be a proponent of legal immigration, not condone lawlessness. he is in a gop primary setting that's different from a general election. think he's more concerned about the primary than the general lex. romney knows he can appeal to independents. being from massachusetts he'll appeal to the u.s. he'll pull a lot of reagan democrats but the base isn't convinceded. i don't hear him sounding terribly conservative. >> the question i have and the question the white house is grappling with is if it's mitt romney, does the conservative base inevitably, eventually, when does it come to being comfortable with him? would they be comfortable staying home? >> oh, no. >> i doubt they would go for barack obama. >> yes. >> they may vote for him. >> we still have other options and we are trying to figure if

gingrich is a better choice or romney. but i think he is a better choice than barack obama. >> you think the conservative base will come forward? >> think they will. >> his plan for medicare is basically the paul ryan plan which is divisive. he has to pivot off that and win independent voters. >> that's what i'm saying about political consistency and i know the white house will have clips from the past where he's on both sides. i encourage romney to point to barack obama's political ij in the primary barack obama opposed a health care mandate. also stop defending romneycare in the name of federalism. say it was bad policy for the state and it would be bad policy for the country. >> i think there is a difference between adjusting on policy once you realize the realism of the job and the responsibilities versus making obvious 90-degree

pivots during a primary campaign. voters will be able to distinguish the difference. >> i have stood strong against romney's pivots, too. >> it's not just medicare but immigration, his position on abortion. we use the word flip-flop loosely, but in the case of romney one only can. i want to turn the conversation toward the meme people are dissatisfied with. the media has gone back and forth on him. there is a sense that base isn't in his corner yet. romney has got the money. if you look at the bush -- the big bush campaign doe nay t"don" that's not a word. maybe in "transformers." they are going to romney three to one. it may be a behind the scenes thing but the signs are pointing toward mitt. the more we come to terms with

it, the more back and forth you will see between the white house and the romney campaign. >> whomever you are, democratic or republican it's difficult to beat a front-runner for six to eight months. i'm not for romney. looking at this objectively, his cam pain, i would like where wq4 are now. the fact that we have been emerging. the fact that he had to weather the perry storm which made him a better candidate the way perry came after him and collapsed. who know ifs perry will re emer emerge? i agree about medicare but at the end of the day this is about jobs and debt and whether or not the president is able to fashion a deal before christmas that is meaningful, significant. he has to blame the republicans officially and the focus has to be on jobs and finding creative ways, legislatively reaching out to find ways to get the

unemployment number to come out. i think we as democrats face a real challenge across the board coming into next year's election. >> it's also about who you want representing you in washington. that's where mitt romney comes into a problem which is voters don't like him. you look at his favorability ratings. they are not good for someone who hasn't been in office a long time. >> there are polls that show him as number one by a percentage point. >> you also look at the percent of people who say they will absolutely vote for mitt romney under no circumstance. 47% of voters who have made up their mind about him. that will be hard to overcome. even with good positions. >> mitt romney, at least some people like you. we have to take a break. when we come back, rick perry wants congress to work part time. hey, why not? who wants some holiday tunage?

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i'm going to unveil a plan to uproot all three branches of government. and overhaul washington. itç touches every branch of government because they each have contributed to the demise of america. >> he is going to uproot the u.s. constitution and rewrite it in his own image. rick perry, going out there with some big plans. we know this is a guy that is suffering now. beyond the oops he hasn't found traction among gop voters. is this a hail mary pass?

>> it's laughable in some ways. rick perry is a more serious guy than he's come across. at least i hope he is. if you think about it. this is not a partisan comment. a few years back, and this would offend the great veteran here. he wanted to secede from the union to avoid following federal law. we have chronicled his mistakes. to say you want to uproot the federal government it is discussed congress in action. you change the personnel and change the leadership. i think people probably don't take him as seriously as he'd like. there is no doubt this is an effort to appeal to a conservative base who dislikes government, dislikes president obama and nancy pelosi. i don't think conservatives will interpret it as a serious proposal. >> he wants to cut congressional pay, budget and time in d.c. by half. the big one for me was to add lifetime tenure for federal

judges. he wants to make the supreme court not a lifetime position. but an 18-year, i think, position. it would involveç changing the u.s. constitution, as far as i can tell. >> it's interesting. you see what perry is trying to do. congress has a 13% approval rating. they don't work hard enough. they are doing only part-time work. i understand what he's trying to do politically. the challenge is this. when you look at things he's proposing, whether it be eliminating agencies within the federal government -- >> do you know the three he wants to eliminate? >> yeah. >> what are they? >> i would love to hear how he thinks departments like commerce and education have done nothing to help the united states government over the past two decades. more importantly, you have to look at it this way. instead of focusing on things that aren't just hail marys but are unconstitutional in terms of

what he's trying to propose, what about issues as the commander in chief and as president of the united states you have authority over. we have yet to hear him talk about afghanistan with substance. how a repeal of the health care law would help the most vulnerable. i would like that instead of he things he has zero control over. >> it's clear they got into people into a focus group, the most appealing thing is that he's a washington outsider and this is a proposal meant to drive the image home. this isn't about policy. he can't win on policy. he can win on, if anything, framing himself as the one person who is outside of the fray. >> i think he can win on policies because the job growth rate in texas is extraordinary and -- >> most of those went to undocumented immigrants. >> he'll have a problem with that. we can talk aboutç in-state tuition for illegals. i'm using the word. >> go ahead.

you're not running for president. >> and there is a distinction. but he's making a point about wanting people accountable to us to go back to districts and be accountable to people who elected them. when people get entrenched with the washington machine they lose touch of what they are standing for. i don't think he wants to throw the constitution out. he understands things will require an amendment. he's saying i want to change the system. i want to change the way washington works. i took him figuratively to say, let's shake things up. >> it's so naive. congress should spend less time in washington? people aren't spending time reading bills. there is a lack of institutional knowledge ag among those serving. the idea they would be better away from the infrastructure not debating and discussing and coming to bipartisan compromise is, again, just a wildly naive of the way government works. >> i took it more as an

interpretation toward interpreting term limits. if you're going to have a time limit for supreme court justices maybe we can discuss it on a larger scale. i think term limits are essentially senl in terms of holding them accountable. it's you do for me and i do for you. they work for us. >> there are states with term limits. we can look at how states have behaved politically, how they have conducted political debates. i don't think you would find better outcomes in states with term limits versus those without. if that's the goal we should have the conversation. but none of what he's talking about will impact anything that theç country is most focused o from jobs, debt. other issues here. i agree. he has a great job creating record but has been unable to forcefully, clearly, concisely, convincingly talk about what he did and how to translate it into job creation at the federal level. i would love to know as a

democrat, as an american how he would do it at the federal level. throughout his time in the campaign he's fumbled the ball more than he's advanced the ball down the field. he evidently has a great history in texas of doing positive things. it would be good to hear them. we have heard hpv, immigration. i think he's more right on immigration than you do and perhaps some others do. >> that's my beef with him. >> i want to hear him talk jobs. >> i would, too. >> instead of being distracted by the herbs and spices of tax forms on postcards and a strategy for the government one expert called a visit to wonderland. he's down the rabbit hole on this stuff. >> alex, at least that was -- the idea of a simple tax form. i would love to hear more details about that than suggesting to your point the problem with congress here is not that we spend too much time there. we didn't spend enough getting to know one another, find agreement on big issues.

i would love him to talk about the postcard more than term limits on supreme court justices. i didn't know that was an issue. maybe in texas. >> rewriting the constitution aside we'll have more to discuss after the next break. we'll be back in an instant with the other stories driving the day.

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i yen e ndw ..meenin t suhe ono bcab. yothrs wntyoow sphapt n d seal d t eet. michele bachmann has doubled down on her previous comments aboutç the dangers of vaccines. when she was in iowa a mother said her daughter's physical ailments may be traced to vaccination. michele bachmann said it's unfortunate that the girl must

live with the are a vravages of vaccine. we know the science doesn't exist. yet michele bachmann continues with the theory. is this just michele bachmann being michele bachmann? i think this misinformation especially with science is really damaging in a way maybe other gaffes we have seen from the republican field are not. >> there's been debate about the effectiveness of the vaccine and potential side effects. what she's trying to mandate is the executive order perry endorsed. she probably has a problem with somebody running who is opposing a mandate by obama and yet had mandate for 6th grade girls to get a vaccine. if you want it, go ahead. i think she feels and let me say how i feel, that it's stepping on parental rights. that is core issue she wants to

address. >> it would be one thing to talk about the government involved in health care. this is a falsehood that stokes fear among families and young children. she bears some responsibility to clarify things. no? >> i'll use perry's executive order. he enforced it only after the fda approved it. a lot of theç implications of e vaccine in the future we don't know. it's very new. she's just calling attention to if you want to put that risk upon your kids or you individually want to put the risk upon yourself as an adult, go ahead. don't mandate it. don't have a government say, you have to do this. in order to get through school you have to have the vaccine. >> i think there is a different between parental consent and fear mongering. that's the line she skirts. whether it's global warming and climate change, there are a lot

of facts out there that michele bachmann has no problem skirting. that's the challenge. is this what we are going to continue to see her way as gaining momentum? >> and doubling down in area where is she's been criticized. let's go to the next grab bag topic. the quest to oust scott walker has begun. opponents are looking for 540,000 signatures statewide to force a recall election. the question is we saw what happened in ohio. do you think that the situation in ohio was unique enough that it may not carry over to wisconsin? >> it started in wisconsin. at least national attention began with scott walker. now this is an important lesson for both political parties to understand. john kasich articulated it well last week. he said, you can't move too fast and doo too much. excesses in politics are

generally rejecteded by voters. scott walker won the debate early on, encouraging, urgingh and winning capitulation from unions to pull back some of the gains they made in order to help balance the state budget. he said, you should never be able to bargain for better conditions, wages, whatever. important lesson. i think walker is in trouble. he may not lose the recall but this paves the way in the midwest for democrats and particularly the obama team to rebuild, rejuvenate the incredible effort they put forth in 2008. >> there are big lessons from arizona. you saw the recall of russell pierce who was the architect of anti-immigration legislation. to your point, you can't move too fast but what organize rs understood was immigration was not going to be enough to tors the recall. they needed to build a coalition. take into consideration issues of fraud, mismanagement.

>> this is going to need to be bigger than union rights. >> and 2012 will see issues on the national stage. >> next, how are politicians making money? we'll follow the money next on "now." ♪ ♪ mama said there'd be days like this ♪

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thanks for being on the show. >> thank you, alex. >> newt gingrich can rake in $1.8 million working as a historian for freddie mac. something sounds questionable to me. >> newt was asked aboutç it la week, the money that friday mac paid him. he said he didn't do lobbying but newt was critical of the business model calling it insane and said he said it to the freddie mac folks at the time. i have been talking to former freddie mac lobbyists today. let me show you what one told me today. a former freddie mac lobbyist said his explanation in the debate is just not, in my judgment, credible. that is a lot of money to pay for just one guy. so clearly some of the folks involved at the time say newt wasn't credible in the debate. the issue was freddie mac was making a push in washington to make conservatives get their arms around the idea of freddie

mac as a joint public-private partnership. they were making a big push spreading money around to former members. >> especially when gingrich said the villains in this are barney frank and chris dodd. look at their ties to freddie lobbyists. the idea that he would have had a part in this goes a great deal to undermine newt's message about what's wrong with government. >> here's what we know about why freddie mac hired a bunch of former members of congress. the idea was to push the message in washington. this is not necessarily lobbying but gets to the nuance of what's legally lob big and what lobbyists do in town. they push the message out that, hey, this is not necessarily against a free marketç economyo have a government-backed entity.

we are increasing the ownership society, doing something good here for the poor. they put a lot of former members of congress on the payroll on the lobbying side and the p.r. and advocacy side in general. that's where newt came in. that's what the folks who worked for are telling me today. >> this is not the only story in the news about money and politicians. "60 minutes" had a story about congressional insider trading and that members of congress were investing in companies where they had privileged information based on what was on the legislative calendar. eamon, i know you're an expert in this one as well. i would like to open it to the panel and say, is this the nail in the coffin? terms of trust? >> this is the politics as usual people can't stand. this is why herman cain has a shot. people are so entrenched in

washington, d.c. and the political nonsense, games. they think there is a separate set of rules for them. people are disgusted. if newt isn't telling the truth this will hurt him. if there was more money involved or this isn't how he advised them, it will hurt him. we have to hold politicians accountable for their behavior. >> i'm not sure if herman cain will benefit because he's still giving paid speeches while running for president. >> a washington outsider. >> right. >> herman cain was head of the national restaurant association and was head of a lobbying ç group. >> he's run for office before. >> the idea that he's outside of this -- >> more than gingrich. >> i think you're right. the separation between politics and money is one of the main issues that's so frustrating for people.

they are looking for how exactly my interests are represented. how is my voice being heard? this is a challenge. people feel they are so heavily involved how can they have representation be proper? >> i would love to ask you more about the allegations or charges here. pelosi was mentioned as having iffy investments in visa as has boehner. the wall street journal said this is much ado about nothing. in your view what is the nut graph on insider trading in congress. >> it's what one of your panelists said. that there are different rules for those on the inside of washington than those in the rest of the country. we went through a year on wall street with a huge investor thrown in jail for insider trading based on whispering back and forth with the director at

goldman sachs. now we have similar behavior on capitol hill. friday i interviewed jake abramoff. he said he saw at least a dozen members of congress engaged in insider trading when he was a power player in washington. they would come to his restaurant and brag about how much money they were making in the stock market. itç sounds like it's been goin on for years. there is no question there are different rules for those on capitol hill than the rest of average american citizens. >> what restaurant was it? can i get a stock tip? >> you can. it was called signature's. it was a restaurant abramoff owned on pennsylvania avenue. as soon as he got notorious everyone stopped going there. there is a new place there now. >> let's be careful to criminalize things that haven't been criminalized yet. i appreciate eamon's piece and the piece on "60 minutes." perhaps the rules should be changed if members of congress

will make huge stock purchases that they have to disclose it. i caution people not to listen to jack abramoff. he's a crook. lobbying isn't illegal. what he did s. it would be the equivalent of saying you have news anchors or reporters cheating, use illicit means. that would make that person a criminal. what abramoff did was disgusting. he should have gone to jail. we should be careful. >> i would love your opinion on this. you served in congress. why should it be legal for members of congress to trade in the market based on information they have exclusive access to on capitol hill. fit's legal now why isn't that the way to go? >> i'm not defending criminal behavior. >> it's legal behavior now. >> in the real world you are not

allowed to do theseç things. you have to report each year, members of congress have to file financial disclosures and you can gasoline a lot of answers to questions you may have. i watched the "60 minutes" piece. i would hope one of the things congress does is change some of the rules to demand more disclosure and put limits around how they can act on information they may learn before it's publically disclosed. >> the fox is nailing shut the henhouse door. >> absolutely. >> thanks, eamon. up next, our secretary of state, the zen of hillary clinton. chris matthews is in next when he plays "hardball" in our bull pen. we'll get his reaction to hillary's reaction to when a streaker ran through a hawaiian press op. ♪

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♪ [ male announcer ] this is zales, the diamond store. [ shutters clicking ] [ laughter ] >> that was great! i hope you all captured that. people will wonder what the chief executive is doing. >> that was a classic genuine reaction from secretary of state hillary clinton at the apac conference sunday. chris matthews is the host of "hardball" on ms nbc and author of "jack kennedy, elusive hero" which i have heard is one of the best books on kennedy out there. how are book sales, chris? >> it's number three. it is actually the best book. people who know their business say it's the best book.

>> it's beautiful. >> and you're a star, too. >> i'm learning from the best. i want to talk to you aboutç ts hillary moment. >> i know the theme of the segment and i like it. the public is seeing the private hillary. >> exactly. >> harold knows this. like most public figures -- bill clinton is bill clinton all the time. you and i are basically all the time the same person. really. but some public figures really freeze on television. they have a colder persona. al gore can be cold, hot, anything in private. you never know. some guys are more fun or women. hillary clinton -- and i think women are, by the nature of the professional behavior you have to be more formal than men most of the time. that's the way things are evolving now. hillary clinton is very professional, very formal in public generally. in private she's regular and sometimes girlish.

she has a spontaneous manner. >> and a sense of humor. >> oh, yeah. >> after coalition forces got gadhafi my favorite was her reaction there. i think we have the tape. when she first finds out gadhafi has been captured if not killed. >> we came, we saw, he died! >> we came, we saw, he died. >> also, just another tone. remember the scene of her, the still -- maybe you have it of her in the sit room watching the horrible thing going on. how many people watch a killing -- i have never seen a killing in real life. for her to watch it and she goes like this. what's that? that's what a person does. oh, my god. that's also part of her. she'sha human being. >> it's not just the spontaneity but the warmth and the sense

that she's genuinely enjoying her job which is one of the tough nest the administration. >> also the greatest job in the world. anybody else in the world who went to college who doesn't want to be secretary of state? it's the greatest job in the world. >> it is. and she crushed it. she's done an amazing job. if they put her head to head with romney she wins. >> but attacking opponents, she's out of the line of fire like bill clinton. >> that's fair. >> nothing more attractive than an ex-president. see how much more popular you are today? mr. ford? you're not hatcheting the other person all the time. it's not attractive going after barack obama or john mccain. >> she's not forced to be tenacious. >> you have to cut half the people off who don't support you. the other half immediately doesn't like you. with secretary of state, we are

all rooting for the success of the country and the world. >> let's keep in mind. there have been a lot of area where is the president has been criticized. but foreign policy and his wins on the international front are due in no small part to her. we have libya, egypt. she's in the asia-pacific region dealing with china. this is someone who is literally carmen san diego out there crushing it. >> i think we are the spon sorg country that pays every year to help them out.ì(lc% of course they are our ally but don't get the idea they are the big brother here. sometimes i think that incredible ego he thinks he's the big brother. somebody has to remind him who's paying. >> that's interesting. the hot mikes with obama and a nicolas sarkozy talking about it. >> the secretary of state has to play that part, too. she did one great job for israel

and us. inevitably we'll face a situation where we are the only friend of israel in the security council. it doesn't look good for us or israel to have one friend in the world. >> nor does it look good for us to be the only friend to israel. >> exactly. doesn't help us, especially in the middle east. she got germany to vote with us and the french may abstain which is incredibly strong development and the british. we have murked it up which is what you want to do at certain times so we aren't standing out there with israel all alone. >> and working with susan rice. >> she's been great. she got us into libya. also remember, she's a monster? that developed. sometimes in politics you get along. >> now hillary clinton is america's favorite politician. >> she'll tell you she's not a politician. do you think she'll run? you're boosting her.

if i were her and i'm not her political ally, but she should serve out this term, take a break for a year or two, get healthy, relax, get her head clear and decide if she wants to run for president. it's a decision you can make with a clear head. not in the ': >> oh, yeah. if the president doesn't run again which is a possibility. >> would she have to go back to congress? >> i don't know. if she wants to. there is no seat now. >> the moments when we see politicians being real people are really important. i'm watching gop dpe baits and the moments that people perceive as stumbles reflect a humanity. that's important to think of politicians as so detached from persons. we forget they go home and have real lives and families. these things that are spontaneous move across party lines. >> for obama maybe there will be a man in a loin cloth.

>> with a torch. >> chris, chris. >> might be better in person. >> your book, what two lessons can president obama draw from that? i'm curious? >> with your indulgence, a couple things. these are tough. you have asked me a tough. he has to justify a second term if he wants a second term. the key is to show growth. it will be better than h this term. i'm a veteran now. i can do a better job than i have. he has to. it hasn't been a great term for popularity. he has to admit there are a couple of things he didn't do the way he should have. i could argue the stimulus package, too big, too small, whatever. he has to say the calculation on size was wrong. we thought bekd achieve 8% unemployment with the size of this stimulus package. just say it.

t st say it. this way. with the help of the republicans and voters i will try to do it. kennedy's greatest moment in the presidency is when he admitted responsibility for the bay of pigs. then he went to 83% in job approval. >> and mittens. >> he has to draw a picture of the second term. he's never told us what to do if there were no tea party in the way. no eric cantor in the way. would there be a reduction of debt? >> you're right. what is the vision for the future? >> the last didn't work out. if he says the new car is as good as the one he sold us last time, it won't sell. >> chris will be back with us. >> you're rushing me. i feel it. >> the book is on sale, the best book about kennedy out there. >> best book ever actually. >> watch "hardball" tonight on

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newt's washington baggage. the former speaker responds to reports that he made more than $1.5 million consulting for freddie mac. >> first of all, it wasn't paid to me. the gingrich group was a consulting firm that had lots of people doing things. we offered strategic advice. >> is $1.6 million right? >> we'll go back to check. >> sounds like more than being a historian. >> well, i was speaker of the house of the a strategic adviser. >> could gingrich's dealings with freddie mac be a problem with the republican base? õne week and counting for the super committee. if you have a way to close the trillion dollar plus gap speak up now. the penn state sex abuse scandal. what did joe paterno know and when did he know it? ahead, pennsylvania senator bob casey on strengthening laws to protect our children. and the occupy wall street protesters regroup aft