flashpoint at the afghan/pakistan border. today, american flags and the president of this country, president obama are effigies burning in cities across the country, as demonstrations rage over saturday's nato air strike in the mohmand region. reports say the strikes lasted two hours and pakistan is saying those soldiers were killed in an unprovoked attack. nato officials, however, describe the incident as tragic and unintended. they say an investigation is now underway. almost immediately, pakistan shut down supply routes to afghanistan that we use. and if that continues, the war in afghanistan will slow to a crawl. so just how serious is this? to answer that, we bring in lieutenant colonel anthony shafer from the center for

advanced studies, and atlantic correspondent, jeffrey goldberg, who was co-author of "the ally from hell," a cover story on pakistan that ran in both the "atlantic" movie and the "national journal." tony, how big a deal is this? >> this is big by the fact this is a continuation of the same issues we've been dealing with for the past sen years. i don't believe for a minute that nato fired without provocation on this area. the bottom line is this. we are both daddy warbucks, we pay these bills for these, $2 billion a year to the pakistani army. at the same time, we're the bogeyman. what you're seeing here, dylan, is that effect. you're seeing the manipulation of the facts, by both sides, frankly. but the bottom line is this is simply one more battle in the long-running issues between the paks and us. and frankly the bottom line is the pakistanis still aren't being helpful and that's what this is really all about. >> how much of a disruption, jeffrey, would this be to our ability to even to continue to prosecute war in afghanistan if pakistan decided to become

uncooperative in the supply chain management coming if from pakistan? >> it would be somewhat troublesome. obviously, the u.s. can figure out a way to get supplies to its troops. i'm also doubtful how long this will actually last. i mean, you remember, this is an extremely unhappy marriage, and periodically, one side or another, the americans or the pakistanis threaten divorce, but they never actually get divorced. the prime minister of pakistan is playing to the crowd, obviously, in the last day or so. but i don't think that this lasts more than a couple of weeks. i really don't. based on past experience. >> got it. tony, you said the following in the briefing before the show. you said, we have knowingly self-funded the taliban's efforts against us. some of the billions we pay ends up with the taliban. the sooner we accept this fact, you say, stop the funding, and remove the conventional military forces from afghanistan, we will all be better off. you say this, being afghanistan,

pakistan, this whole conversation we're having right now now, is a distraction from the core issues we need to address, the cold war and the iranian nuclear program. it is time to leave afghanistan and focus on the larger real issues. do you get any sense that that is anything more than a point of view right now when it comes to policy? >> apparently not. and that's part of the problem right now. we're so focused on slugging it out with the taliban, where they're actually being supported, the hakani network in particular, by the isi. we pay the isi. if you actually follow the money like you always talking about, it comes right back to us. we're self-funding this. this is like in vietnam, if we had been funding the ho chi minh trail, the same time we're trying to destroy it. so bob johnson, one of our senior fellows, who was a planner on the marjah op actually says, all we're doing is adding friction to the fiction. there's no real war here. we're feeding into this, and it's a process of not allowing us then to focus on the larger regional issues which is really what we should be looking at.

>> what piece of information, jeff, what framing, what event could occur that would rattle us from our sort of -- our egoic battle with this country, afghanistan, that we will defeat because we are men and that's what americans do and will win, and how do we not allow that to basically allow us to ignore what tony's talking about, iran and india, and pakistan? >> look, tony is right. we have a pakistan problem. we don't have ans a afghanistan problem. >> absolutely. >> the point is, unless we can pix our pakistan problem, there's really no point in trying to fix our aversion problem. and what's going to happen eventually -- look, here's the thing. if the times square bomber, remember him? >> sure. >> if he had succeeded in blowing up that bomb, we would be in a completely different relationship with pakistan. that guy was trained in pakistan. eventually something's going to happen that's going to cause some kind of rupture. which at the very least, we'll be able to deal honestly with

what we're facing, which is a pakistan problem. >> is there anything, tony, that anybody in this country could do in advocating policy at the pentagon, at the white house, in the congress, there's no shortage of facts. this is not the only tv show where this is talked about. >> right. >> pakistan exists on maps and other buildings that have nothing to do with nbc. how what takes us to the boiling point, where we really force the reframing. >> well, just -- the pakistanis need us far more than we need them. accept that from the premise to start from instead of continuing to reinforce bad behavior. this is like having a 17-year-old who goes out and wrecks seven cars and finally gets your insurance canceled and you say, why did it happen? we need to understand that pakistanis are going to work in their own self-interest. got it. but at the same time, we have to make them understand clearly, these are the points of departure that where we can't support you. and if you cross those lines, you have to expect bad things to happen. we had to do it on the raid on

bin laden. we've had to do other things as well. we have to accept the fact that there's a time to change and the time to change is now. here's the trick. are you ready for the multi quatrillion dollar question. whether it's escalating military contact, even if it's targeted, inevitably the people who suffer from the defunding of the aid or the people who suffer from the drone attacks are the poor people, are the less powerful people in that country, which then ironically only facilitating further anti-american sentiment, as we attempt to punish their government for not cooperating with us to help their people. it's crazy. >> well, look. let's remember one thing. america is at about 7 or 8% popularity rate right now in pakistan. it's within the margin of error of zero. you're not going to become a lot more popular if you're america

in pakistan, that's one thing. >> so we have upsides? >> the main beneficiaries of american aid are the generals. let me disagree slightly with what tony said. i think right now pakistan is a little bit more in the driver seat, but only for one reason. because we need pakistan as a through route, as a way of getting supplies to our troops in afghanistan. he's right in the sense that if you draw down in afghanistan pretty dramatically, you're not going to need those passages that the pakistanis provide. that's one interesting argument in favor of a drawdown. >> so basically, if you accelerate or if you complete the drawdown in afghanistan, tony, do you have a fair proposition that doing that increases america's leverage with pakistan? >> absolutely. for two reasons, first, it gets us back to the mission we should be focused on, which is anti-terrorism, pointed out in mr. goldberg, the faisal shahzad

attempt at times square would have taken a different direction should he have been successful. and we have to figure out what our interests are. are our interests reforming the karzai government, which is corrupt, or looking at what's necessary to achieve victory. we've really got to determine that and determine what our policy really is for moving forward. >> a pleasure, as always, guys. tony, great to see you. jeff, thank you so much for coming back to us again. jeff's article, "allies from hell," which has a subtle meaning in there, i'm sure. kind of like my book, greedy ba bastards. we're finally learning the secret of the big bank's secret bailout. plus, fighting these sorts of things with hot spotting. the problem-solving tactics that proves that it's all about how, not how much.

and -- >> a couple of fell last came into camp the night before last with a load of beef, young beef, wanting to trade for horses or furs or anything. they seemed real anxious. >> did you trade with them? >> no, i didn't know either one of them. i figured they'd rustled the beef somewhere, though. >> good old cattle rustling making a come back, and these beef thieves have some 21st century tricks. [ sniffs ] i have a cold. [ sniffs ] i took dayquil but my nose is still runny.

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if europe is contracting or if europe is having difficulties, then it's much for difficult for us to create good

jobs here at home, because we send so many of our products and services to europe. >> well, the european debt crisis taking center stage at a white house immediating of e ruru leaders. the white house continues to watch the continuing threats to europe and spain, following the bailouts of smaller countries like portugal and spain and ireland. the root causes of the problems, massive amounts of leverage in the banking and consumer sector, with the implicit guarantee that government will back up those highly leveraged banks. and speaking of bailouts, we are finally learning about the amount of u.s. federal reserve cash, your money, printed, without really asking you, that went to the nation's biggest banks following the '08 collapse. the grand tally, $7.77 trillion. bear in mind, you spend $1 million every day, every day since jesus christ was born, you wouldn't spend $1 trillion. this is $7.7 trillion. it's a lot of money. between then and the march of

'09 when that money went out. taking that money from us upped their compensation levels by 20% during the very same period. wouldn't you, with all that new money coming in. the monday mega panel is here. the thing that frustrates me the most and everybody else at this point, forget the failure to resolve it, we've been down this path, we still don't have the transparency to know what the real risk is. the swaps market is often exchanged, and no one can tell you where the european debt risk actually is. no bank ceo knows, nobody knows where it is. and we get these tidbits, imogen, from the reserve audit. you're like, tim carney got $400 billion for the weekend, he must have gone to vegas. how did he get that money? how do we -- forget how do we. how disturbing is it that we don't really know what's going on. forget us, the bank ceos. >> this is the stuff of absolute nightmares. nobody has any idea.

their leaders don't know. obama's busy calling on the european leaders to do something. sorry, they're all in a complete state of denial. it's the biggest debacle in the eurozone since world war ii. fundamentally, nobody has any clue how to move forward. with the eurozone, you've got 17 leaders trying to make a decision. they're not making a decision. >> if you don't know what's going on, tim, isn't the first thing to do is to audit the situation. if you walk into an environment where you don't know, is not the first thing you do is request an assessment of what can be known? >> yes. and the people resisting audit is and assessments are the central banks. the government institutions don't want -- >> 17 nations, to be precise. >> and nobody knows how the u.s. government spends its money. and i'm certain it's the same with the european governments, and so this is a way that they intertangle themselves so much. they get big enough and they get

sort of secretive enough that we have no choice, is at least what the politicians -- obama says, well, we had no choice but to bail him out. i don't agree with that, but let's not get to that point where we have no choice -- >> it's an interesting thing, when you look at it, ari, from the perspective of capitalism, where there's money and you have money and then you can buy a house, or there's money and you can start a business. or there's money and you can lend it out. whatever it might be. and we found ourselves in a situation where we celebrate transparency and we celebrate visibility, and not just the social media, but the new york stock exchange and the nasdaq, and decimalization of all these things. and yet when it comes to the credit market, when it comes to the borrowing market, it's the world's biggest black hole. >> it doesn't seem like we do celebrate transparency, right? because we don't have any idea what we were doing. we didn't know what these mortgage-backed securities were in the first place. there was no transparency that got us into -- >> we celebrate the rhetoric of transparency -- >> but we still don't know. still haven't gotten to the bottom of it.

there are bailouts upon bailouts upon bailouts. we can at least hope when europe goes forward, they will look to what the u.s. has done and they won't do what we did. >> hope's not working that well these days. >> on that $7.7 trillion, an important thing to remember. the fed chairman at the time was ben bernanke and the new york fed chairman at the time was tim geithner. i want to make sure all of msnbc's liberal viewers know, obama re-appointed and promoted these guys respectively. so it's not as if this was -- >> and just to go where you're going, to take it honestly, as far out of the partisan political complex as i can, the policies were implemented, the eurozone, by the way, was created at the same time we did glass-steagall, all one idea under clinton with rubin, and george bush advanced it, lifted the leverage requirements, and president obama said, this looks great, let's do more. anyway, let's talk about something else, shall we? do you want to feel inspired? are you feeling a little bit concerned by what -- this is a real pick me up i've got for you. i joke. this is the opposite of a

pick-me-up, and it is a story that speaks more to our personal nature than our economic state. another storied college sports program is facing its own growing scandal today. syracuse university has fired assistant basketball coach bernie fine amid allegations of sex abuse from at least three accusers so far. there are calls for the head coach to step down. and in the latest twist, this will be a headline grabber, a newly released recording of a decade-old phone conversation said to be between fine's own wife and one of the alleged victims appears to show she was aware or at least suspected what her husband was doing. take a listen to this tape. >> i know everything that went on. you know, i know everything that went on with him. >> bernie has issues. maybe that he's not aware of, but he has issues. and you trusted somebody you shouldn't have trusted. >> yeah. >> bernie is also in denial. i think that he did the things

he did, but somehow through his own mental tlep think erased it out of his mind. >> do you think i'm the only one that he's ever done that to? >> no. i think there might have been others, but it was geared to, there was others. >> the fact that it contains the content that it does, meaningfully, disturbing. i really tie, is a weird thing, perhaps, but if you look at the ability to avoid things, that you don't want to deal, which really is what this -- >> it's denial. we've been talking about the european -- >> it's with the banks. it's like everybody needs a shrink here, imogen. >> go ahead. >> it's all absolutely terrifying. when do people stop being accountable? or were we never accountable? >> when do they stop having the courage or the compassion to proceed through resolution in a way. tim and i can disagree, and we solve something, but we don't

have to hate each other in that process, right? we can actually -- we can resolve things. there's a culture of resolution that exist in certain communities of certain people, somewhere in the history of the world, you know? >> it's the same culture of entitlement that we see in college sports, that we've seen with the banks, right? so syracuse college basketball is equivalent to penn state college football and how big it is. and jim bayheim's been there as long as -- and they really are too big to fail. that's why these things don't come out earlier. >> and a lack of accountability is what comes with size. >> in those systems. >> in any system, size, almost, can breed a lack of accountability. this is why i'm, you know, a believer -- >> that's why you're for small government. >> local government, a small government that people should be operating in a situation where, you know, if this was happening in a neighborhood, there's more likely to be some level of accountability, both when you're talking about giant banks and giant universities, and giant governments, and giant central banks, et cetera.

it's impossible for the same sort of accountability to be there. the regulations that governments want to put in on banks don't work the way that a more organic accountability happens. >> just to layer the two conversations together, a government or a university or a household or whatever's of any size, with no transparency, inherently is also going to have more of this, right? and obviously, the universities are very powerful at preventing information from coming out, and so to are governments and banks. >> and we're talking about the most vulnerable people here, children. it's the vulnerable people that are getting hurt. and it's just extraordinary that it's happening in 2011. >> yeah. >> it really is. >> the panel will stay. we'll turn our attention to the resistance to this sort of thing. at least, these sorts of values, as they would have you believe it. anyway, after this, occupation nation. standoffs on both coasts as protesters in philly and l.a. defying orders to get out.

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occupy wall street protests heating up once again. in l.a., protesters defied the mayor's order to vacate their encampment near city hall. the lapd says they will not raid the camp anytime soon. now, a similar situation in the city of brotherly love back east, where dozens of protesters remain a day after being asked to leave a park near philadelphia city hall, and the occupy colleges movement coming together in solidarity itself today, as young people holding peaceful strikes in reaction to that now viral pepper spray incident on the uc davis campus. it looks like he's trying to get rid of bugs or something.

literally -- anyway. our specialist today, natalia abrams, media spokesperson and one of the founding facilitators at occupy colleges. natalia, tell us about the events of the day, first off. >> okay. so today is our solidarity strike, which uc davis called and, like you said, and reacted to the events at uc davis with the pepper spray. but today is also still about tuition hikes. we're not going to allow the debate to be changed, to be police against protesters. this is still protesting the egregious tuition hikes that are being done, all over the nation. and actually, today, the uc board of regents met and held a conference call with four uc schools and allowed them to voice their concerns. so kind of what you were talking about earlier, we need to have more transparency and that's what the uc students are asking for. and as well, there's protests at the cu ny schools all across the

country. >> i'm wondering, the tuition, or the cost of college is paid for either by taxpayers, by students, or by debt. i'm all for making tuition be lower, but part of that includes not spending so much money on these colleges. i see, you know, you've got dorms, you've got middle level administrators, all being funded in unprecedented levels. these campuses often look like four-year resorts. i don't know about the uc campuses, but i see on campuses all over. so is there any way in which a little bit of, say, austerity, could be used to make sure that the tuition hike, tuition cuts you're calling for, aren't falling on the back of taxpayers? >> or i want to add one thing to that, natalia, on the transparency front, do the students even know where their tuition money goes? and is it clear whether it even goes to learning things, or whether it goes to adding prestige that may not even benefit the students? >> right. like, buildings and stuff. and that's actually what we're calling for. to address your first question,

we're trying to find the answers to that. and then we think that there should be a tuition hike moratorium, until we can figure out where our money's going. most of our schools are run just like corporations, where they're run by a board of regents that aren't even elected, they're appointed, and we have no real say in where our money's going. there's tons of campuses that are being built in the prestige, but we don't know where our money is going, especially when our teachers are being fired and our classes are becoming cut and it's becoming increasingly harder to get out in four years at a four-year university, which just incurs more debt. >> ari? >> hi, natalia, it's ari berman. i'll ask you, how did what happened at uc davis change the internal conversation from your group about what to do at college campuses going forward, relating to the occupations? >> well, we feel that, actually, this comes -- this is a quote from students occupy, which is some of the facilitators, and we feel that the battle to defend our rights and protect our

universities can not be separated from the battle to get corporate money and power out of our democracy. so we do feel that the two are very connected. and so the uc davis thing just let us know that they are going to try to fight us on our first amendment rights and our rights to peacefully assemble, and we're not going to allow that. just like we're not going to allow them to change the debate. because it's still about our economic injustices, both for occupy wall street and occupy colleges. >> imogen? >> hi, there. obviously, occupy is is now transcending geography, which is amazing. we've seen occupy london, as far as, say, occupy america, occupy wall street and so forth, what would you like to see politicians here and in america do next year, next year in an election year. >> what message would you like them to be picking up from you? >> well, we really support dylan's message of getting money out of politics, because we think that's the first step, to even the student loan situation and to tuition hikes and economic injustices, that our government can't be bought. and until we get the money out of congress and stop having a

bought congress, we're not going to be able to fight these issues fairly. so that's one of our first steps, is really organizing next year, to make that clear to politicians, that we no longer want the lobbyists to run our country. >> and i must say, i admire the distinction that you're making to avoid letting this, natalia, become about protesters versus cops. >> correct. >> for a litany of reasons, not the least of which, it's the cop's pensions that are getting raided, effectively, in the swaps market. it's not like the police are getting a fair deal from this country anymore than the students are. and it's very easy to get lost in those sorts of battles. >> and cops are parents too. >> cops are parents too. >> cops have children in school and their tuitions are going up. they're affected by this, just as much as students are and their parents and teachers and everyone that's affected by this student loan debacle and tuition hikes. >> thus the focus on the economic structure and the need for an audit going to our

earlier conversation, which is where is all this money going in the first place on these college campuses. and is it going to keep these students, or is it going to amplify prestige, so that everybody feels better about themselves. >> but i've just got to say that, again and again, in new york and in all these other cities, it looks like the protests has gone to be, we are protesting for the right to sit on particular sidewalks or to occupy some public park or some privately owned park that happens to be under some zoning restriction. so there is a right to assemble, but there isn't necessarily a right to assemble in zuccotti park. >> can i add a follow-up to that ma many? >> that's not what students are doing. >> do you worry that it's become too much about the physical locations themselves, and the media is focusing too much on these clashes in the parks as opposed to what should be the larger message -- >> and everything natalia's already said to us today. >> i do agree with you, but i will say that students are assembling -- the actions at uc

davis on november 18th, students had assembled to protest tuition hikes and they were sprayed by pepper spray. it wasn't about their camp, per se, it was about -- i believe it was about what they were protesting. and the more that we are realizing that we have a lot more power in this democracy than we realize, that's scaring the elite. and they're trying to suppress us and silence us. so i'll speak on behalf of the college movement that we have been protesting specific economic causes that are affecting us. and we feel that that's a microcosm to the larger occupy movement, which is we're all paying more for less quality. >> deepak chopra gave an interesting speech at the l.a. occupation about the evictions in which he effectively said, if they move you, just occupy someplace else. the location of the occupation is less relevant than the act of occupying, so to say, and advocating for economic justice. does that resonate with you, natalia? >> absolutely. you can't arrest an idea.

that's what we've been saying over and over. so we will move from our camps and that will not break up the occupy movement. this isn't -- as cornel west said, this is a democratic awakening. and that's -- i think that's what the purpose of the tents were, to bring notice to this. we would not be bringing these large demonstration ifs we didn't have the events in zuccotti park, but it doesn't mean zuccotti park needs to stay to continue the movement. >> natalia, you've mentioned student debt. one of the things that has driven up student debt has been subsidies for student loans, making them easier makes more people likely to buy it. this has had the effect of driving up tuition and thus increasing the amount of student loans. so there's two problems here. what do we do about people with these huge debts who were promised a job, basically, and don't get it. that's one problem you have to address. but going forward, do you think that the government ramping up student loan subsidies is the right policy or are there more specific reforms that you're looking for? >> i think, first of all, we can start by not subsidizing the

for-profit colleges, which is what our government subsidizes right now. and to me, that doesn't quite make sense when we have these great four-year universities. i'm not necessarily against -- >> that's a tiny slice -- >> it's a tiny slice, but if you look at the data on subsidies for for-profit colleges -- the university of phoenix is basically a tax scam, where they get the subsidy, they give the degree, there is no job -- >> but i wonder about the regular private schools and the college -- >> we'll let you finish. >> we do need a debt restructuring. it's ridiculous in this country that you can go bankrupt and get rid of your consumer debt on your credit card loans, but you can't get rid of your student loans, it's there forever. so we need to have, we believe right now we need to have a moratorium to look at where our tuitions are going, as dylan said before, and we need to look at student loan restructuring. but i don't have all the answers. that's why we're trying to get everybody together, get the 99% on board and get the students on board. >> listen, i love the -- it

makes an awful lot of sense, natalia, and the thing you and your group is in the best position to do is to demand that audit, demand that transparency. it is your education and it is your money. at the very least, they could tell you and the rest of us what the heck they're spending that money on. we'll talk to you sooner rather than later. >> great, thanks so much. next up here -- megapanel goes, by the way. have a good week, you guys. robbery on the range, after this, what's behind a resurgence in that cattle rustling. [ male announcer ] this is lara.

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ride 'em in. ride 'em in. turn 'em out. >> yeah! >> ah, cattle rustling. not just the stuff of classic westerns, anymore.

states in the western united states now reporting an alarming increase in livestock thievery, and believed to be driving the prairie pinching, it is easier and more lucrative than it's ever been, as in the old west, a ruster's only tools were a gun and some rope. but now they've gone high-tech, tracking their roaming prey with gps and four-wheel drive vehicles. in idaho, over 250 cattle have been gone missing under suspicious circumstances. state livestock officials also attribute the increase in cattle crimes to the economy and the fact that each pilfered cow can go for up to 2,000 smackers. with no uniform reporting system, it's hard to get a firm number on missing cattle, but it's in the tens of millions of dollars just in the past few years. sounds to me like it might be time for a little justice old west style. i hope somebody has clint

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bastard$!" will be out in january. the book is an honest attempt to give americans the debate we deserve and provide a solution to the unholy mess that the greedy bastards have gotten us into. the book is full of themes to help get this debate started, so leading up to the launch, i want to start introducing some of those themes to you here on the show. think of it as a "greedy bastard$!" glossary. we begin with the concept, the idea of solving problems through something called hot-spotting. i define hot-spotting as a technique that targets the most expensive problems or in-need people by allocating resources to specific problem areas revealed by data about them. instead of asking how much, it's the how that really matters. and this is not a new technique, but you don't hear much about it, because the "greedy bastard$!" don't always like it. it's more profitable to spend

money and see what happens. but that's the sort of thing we obviously can't afford anymore. one man who successfully used hot-spotting in the face of budget pressure, bill bratton, former lapd police chief and former police commissioner here in new york city. he is also one of the problem solvers and his technique in hot-spotting is featured in the book. nice to have you here. people know the story of the big city crime drops in l.a. and in new york. but explain to us the problem-solving technique that is hot-spotting and why it is that you can spend less money and get more response. not just in crime, but starting there. >> the idea is that to identify as quickly as possible where crime is occurring, so you can get in there, put cops on the dots, and prevent it from expanding. and it's very much what medicine does. so in policing -- hot-spot policing is puts cops on the dots. timely, accurate attention each day, every day, gathering evidence where crime is occurring, move your limited number of police, and in today's

society, we have fewer police than we've had over the last dozen years or so. there are scarce resources, you have to apply them where you can get the most bang for the buck. >> it's interesting, it seems to be sort of broader than just crime. if you look at the numbers on health care, 1% of all the patients in camden, new jersey, account for 30% of all the health care costs. i imagine there's a similar number like that for the number of citizens that account for a crime. >> in policing, we call it the 10% spluolution. 10% of the locations in a city where about 50% of the crime occurs. so the idea is, you take your scarce resources and put them where you know the problem people are, the problem locations are, and by putting cops there, you're able to prevent a lot of that crime from occurring in the first place. >> and i want to look at this other statistic, which just blows my mind. this is according to david banks, who runs the the eagle academy, which is, again, basically an aggressive hot-spot

education team. they're going into the south bronx, going to these places, trying to work with young children, such that they don't end up in this next -- bring that statistic back up, if you don't mind -- end up in this next statistic. look at this, 70% of new york's inmates come from seven neighborhoods in new york city. which means we don't need to go on a massive search for where this is happening, we can actually use digital discreet data, and point to addresses where these things happened. you couldn't do this sort of analysis without computers. >> you could have, except it would have been extraordinarily labor intensive and took a lot of time. the beauty of computers now, it's allowed us to move into the new era of policing, called predictor policing, which is hot-spot policing on steroids. >> and then the results, whether you see over-allocation in health or over-allocation in education, are very familiar to what you saw, again, with crime. a 50% drop in murders, 39% drop

in serious crimes. less resources, but allocated using the hot-spot mentality. why do the numbers turn out like that? >> as you're using them appropriately, more cops used appropriately means even more crime reduction. we're effectively still feeling the investment made in the '90s in technology, which led to the acquisition of computers, more cops to put on those hot spots. we have to see over time as budgets are reduced and even money to buy, computers that do hot-spot policing how we feel. right now we're feeling the impact of the investment that was made back in the '90s. >> when you watch other systems that spend equally without discreet data, do you think to yourselves, i've got to call these guys and tell them about hot-spotting? >> it's all about information. in the '90s in new york, we k n began the revolution of using crime information for the first time to tell you where to put the cops, when to put them there, and what to do with them.

>> but doesn't it make sense that that same type of data could then be harvested and similar techniques could be used to solve some of our educational problems and some of our health problems? >> certainly. chicago, the superintendent of the school system discovered 500 at-risk youth who they sought to then deal with to basically reduce the potential for those 500 kids to be murder victims in the coming school year. predictive schooling, if you will. that's hot-spot policing in the school system. it saves a lot of money by making investment in those people who you know are going to be in trouble. >> and if you were to look at the resistance to this, it comes from folks who are -- when people say to you, listen, keep your computers to yourself, what tends to be their motivation? >> well, the resistance is oftentimes, the idea of job protection at this particular time, the jobs are disappearing, so that's less than the motivation. but it is the idea that people are just comfortable doing it the way they're used to doing it. in policing, i've always been

known as a change agent, a transformational change agent. and i'm usually not too popular when i come to town, because i know change is going to cur. it's going to come whether you're leading it or following it. i prefer to lead it. >> if you were to look at our budget debate, for instance, in this country. let's say we're going to add a trillion, cut a trillion. add $4 trillion, cut $10 trillion. pick your favorite number, right? i have been on this network every day for three years now since i left cnbc, talking to folks about, you know, policy this and that. i have yet to have a single conversation with an american legislator, policy advocate, congressperson, i don't care who it is, who doesn't come on and argue how much, i need more money, we need less money. i have not had a single person come over and say, the way that we allocate our resources at any threshold is unintelligent. that it is not informed. and as a result, we just distribute the money, either to

our political friends or to how we feel that day, as opposed to in response to the 1% of the patients in camden that are 30% of the health care. or that are the students, or that is the crime. do you think that we can get there? do you have the confidence that we can take the techniques that you proved out so well in crime, and actually have a health care system, have an educational system where the culture of problem solving, the culture in our conditioning, forget what the answers are, but the culture of how we even talk about things integrate these types of ideas. >> there are solutions there. you've outlined a number of them in your book. the idea is to find people who are willing to take the political risk that's necessary to do it. unfortunately, in our congress at the moment, there are very few people who are willing to that i can that risk in any one of the initiatives you've been talking about. >> my last question to you, the distinction between equality and the quest for everyone getting the same thing. the same number of cops on every block, the same amount of money never school.

the same whatever it might be. so equality and the difference between that and equity. where those that are most in need, those that are most desperate for whatever the resource is, is delivered. and understanding that equity is not the same thing as equality. >> that's effectively what i did in policing for 40 years. you put the cops where the problems are. the cops on the dots. hot-spot policing. >> you would think the way you speak that this would be done already in every industry in america. >> don't you wish? >> i do wish! i do wish. well, listen, i, and we all, have learned through your case study with crime, and my hope is that that case study will not only be continued to be used in crime fighting in this country, but will be expanded into our education and health care systems as well. commissioner, pleasure. >> thank you. >> william bratton. we've got a new blog up on "the huffington post" on this very topic this afternoon. "hot-spotting:it's how, not how

much." check it out this afternoon. and coming up on "hardball" here on msnbc, who are the democrats more afraid of in 2012? chris will figure it out. newt gingrich or mitt romney, the two candidates of the day. but first, here's keli with the daily rant on why some of her praise for the president may have been premature. still getting dandruff? neutrogena® t/gel shampoo defeats dandruff after just one use. t/gel shampoo. it works. neutrogena®. to make baby food the way moms this would. happybaby strives to make the best organic baby food. in a business like ours, personal connections are so important. we use our american express open gold card to further those connections. last year we took dozens of trips using membership rewards points to meet with farmers that grow our sweet potatoes and merchants that sell our product. vo: get the card built for business spending. call 1-800-now-open to find out how the gold card can serve your business.

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well, it's monday which means it's time for keli's rant. as such, take it away. >> thanks, dylan. not too long ago, i appeared on this program to applaud the obama administration for achieving landmark decision. well, it looks like my applause was a bit premature and some booing might be in order. a nonpartisan panel recommended

that insurance companies be required to cover birth control for free, as a way of preventative care under the new health care law. a recommendation the obama administration signaled it would follow. despite the white house already publicly agreeing to exemptions for religious institutions, some religious leaders argue that the language doesn't go far enough. according to "the new york times," after protests by roman catholic bishops, charities, schools and universities, the white house is considering a change that would grant a broad exemption exemption. the changes would essentially render the medical panel's recommendation null and void, allowing any employer to claim religious reservations, and thereby deny coverage costs. like some conservatives, i'm a believer in words like personal responsibility and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. the more difficult we make contraception access for poor and middle class women and their families, the more difficult we make it for them to make responsible choices. like only having the number of children they can afford to

support. furthermore, the more accessible and affordable contraception, the fewer women are likely to find themselves in the position of considering abortion, something i thought conservatives cared about. but i don't blame conservatives for the political standoff over contraception. at least they are actually fighting for something that they believe. the white house doesn't seem willing to fight at all. and if we can't get the president to fight for something as simple as birth control, which studies show the majority of americans use and should be administered without insurance co-pays, how can we expect them to have the conscious or courage to fight on the issues that are less clear cut. studies show that the average american woman aspires to a family consisting of two children. like president obama's own family. which seems to indicate that the women who have shaped the president's life seem to understand the value of family planning like he and the men he surroundses himself around do not. if president obama is not man enough for the fight for women

and families, perhaps he should hand the reins over to someone who is. i can think of a few good women who could handle the job. he happens to be married to one of them. >> it's one thing to believe in something and fight for it. it's another thing to be dependent on a wide variety of special interests to raise money to keep your job. >> that's right. >> and i'm interested to know your thoughts on whether it's this issue or any other issue, and quite honestly, whether it's this president or any other president. >> that's right. >> that the individual expectation for any sort of crusade for anything that anybody believes in is only as good as your ability to manipulate it to raise money for your campaign. >> well, i think this will be one of the biggest test issues, though, dylan. because, as people have said, this goes to the very heart of anything that any president -- >> do you believe in something? >> exactly. >> this goes to the heart of it. this is something the majority of americans do support. if he can't stand up on something this clear-cut, i don't see how he can make an argument that he's not at the