grow teskery to make even the harden of us avert our glance in embarrassment and sadness for our republic. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "politics nation" with al sharpton starts right now. republican party, republican mess. herman may drop out. willard can't get the love and newt is laughing all the way to tiffany's. five weeks till the first votes in iowa, but this isn't a party. it's a reality show. chris christie attacks the president's leadership. hey, governor, why don't you call me after you've saved the economy and killed bin laden. and all i want for christmas is an ak-47? ho, ho, ho, how the gun lobby is taking over the holidays.

>> i think it's going to be all in fun from those who support the second amendment and those who don't. whether you're a gun advocate or you're not, you should have a lot of fun with it. >> tonight's lead. in just five weeks republicans in iowa will cast the first votes for the gop presidential race, and the field is a total mess. the one-time front-runner herman cain is now reassessing whether he'll stay in the race after accusations that he had a 13-year affair. he told staffers, quote, we have to do an assessment as to whether or not this is going to create too much of a cloud in some people's minds as to whether or not they would be able to support us going forth, end of quote. cain's replacement as the flavor

of the month, newt gingrich, added his two cents to the scandal today. >> i think it's his decision to make. he has to do what he thinks is best. >> best for who, newt? you? since cain started to tank in the polls, newt has surged to the top. a new robo poll in iowa shows newt leading the pack with 2 26% -- with 28% rather and mitt romney way behind at 12%, and in a south carolina robo poll, newt has 38% while romney struggles at 15%. willard's even suffering on his home turf. although he's still leading in new hampshire with 34%, he's dropped seven points in the last month. meanwhile, gingrich is up a whopping 16% since october, and

cain, he's slipping all the way to the back of the pack, down 12% in one month alone. folks, republicans have had 12 debates and half a dozen front-runners so far this year, and they still have no clue who they will run against president obama next fall. joining me now nbc news political analyst ed rendell, former dnc chair and former governor of pennsylvania, and join walsh, editor at large at salon.com. thank you both for being here tonight. >> thank you. >> sure, al. >> governor, doesn't all this uncertainty highlight just how weak this republican field really is? >> there's no question about that. to have newt gingrich with all of the baggage that he has leading the field and looking like he's going to -- if it were held today sweep the first two or three primaries and caucuses is amazing, i mean, it's amazing. this is -- couldn't be playing out better for president obama,

just couldn't be. >> now, joan, let me ask you something and try to answer this without laughing. a straight face is preferred. >> yes, sir. >> today miss michele bachmann was on radio, and she was, you know, the question was raised about what happens now with cain reassessing. this was her answer. >> when it came out yesterday, everyone said this is it. he's done. people just don't see that there's an ability for him to be able to come back after that, and i think that now the field is narrowing considerably. i think all of these do benefit me. i think that rick perry's slide in the polls benefits me. i think that with herman cain. >> miss walsh, is there a possible scenario that you could see that this could lead to the resurgence of michele bachmann?

i mean, because i know you can see these things better than me, so i dover to you. >> well, i don't know, reverend al. i don't see it coming. she has -- she's kind of a delusional person with her own idea of reality, and maybe she sees this, but i think that what's happened is we've seen each of these people take a little -- take a little strut and stroll and have their moment in the sun, and then when the base really gets a look at them, really gets to know them, they flame out. now, that happened very early with michele bachmann. we were all paying attention. we were all, like, whoa, okay. the tea party likes her, and she stumbled. she did a terrible job, and i don't think the attention is coming back. i think the real story here is that everybody hates mitt, you know. >> yeah. >> he's just never climbing above a certain level, and every time a front-runner, you know, just falls apart, the votes don't go to romney, and so the thing about gingrich, i'm shocked by this, and i'm on

record saying, you know, he's going to rise and fall like the rest of them. there's not that much time for him to fall. i believe it's still possible, but, you know -- >> plus, we know -- we know a lot of newt's negatives already. i think you're right. there's in the a lot of time for him to fall, and there's not a lot of negatives that we already don't know about him. >> right, right. >> governor, let me ask you this. if newt is the ultimate beneficiary of all of this, barney frank held a press conference today, and he said if newt gingrich wins the republican nomination, it will be a tremendous gift to the democratic party. watch this. >> i did not think i had lived a good enough life to be rewarded by newt gingrich being the republican nominee. he would be the best thing that happened to the democratic party since barry goldwater. >> governor? >> yeah. i think barney's got it right. there's no question in my mind,

al, that president obama would beat newt gingrich. you know, people are saying, well, newt gingrich is bright enough to hold his own in the debates. maybe so, but -- but some of this baggage, the 1.3 million for being a historian for fannie mae and freddie mac, i don't think that's going to sit very well. and by the way, a lot of new stuff has come out. that's relatively new, that fact. >> right. >> and the second fact that's relatively new for the base, joan, is the tape of him and nancy pelosi together. i think that that can have some explosive ramifications with the base, unless the base just doesn't want mitt romney so badly that they are going to sort of shrug and -- and forgive newt all of these transgressions, but if those two things alone, the tea party should reject him, you know, on its face just from those two things alone. and let me tell you, you say, al, that nobody loves mitt or nobody likes mitt. that's true perhaps in republican primaries, but it's

still not true in the general. in the general, romney is the only candidate who in pennsylvania is even with the president. all the other candidates are significantly behind the president. >> right. >> now what is also interesting, joan, is the tea party, it seems to be losing some of its strength and some of its popularity. a new pew poll shows that in districts in which tea party lawmakers have been elected, fewer people agree with the tea party, so not only are we seeing this disarray at the top, and as you say no shift over to willard, we're seeing that the tea party is seeming to lose its steam, even in the republican party. >> well, yeah, and i think this is a great thing for america, but it was kind of predictable, too, because back in 2010 people were worried about the economy. they did not like the bank bailouts. they were very concerned about the direction of the country and the misery index, et cetera, and so people kind of blindly, in my

opinion, went for the tea party, and now they have had a chance to govern, and they don't have solutions, so, you know, i think americans are wising up. i agree with governor rendell. mitt romney is the more formidable candidate, and i also think, that you know, there's still time for him to get -- to lay a glove on newt. these two men are flip and flop. i mean, newt gingrich flip-flops, you really might be able to lay them end to end and they will match romney's, and the thing that's particularly worrisome and should be really kind of horrifying to the base is that gingrich's flip flops and his positions. he was for an individual mandate. he was for universal private insurance. he was against the ryan plan. he was for freddie mac before he was against it. all of these things had something to do with who was paying him whereas mitt's changes seem to be about politics. voters will have to decide which is worse, but they are both pretty bad, so i think the more

voters get to know about newt's financial baggage, the 37 million from the health care industry that went to his health think tank. you know, i think there's plenty for people to dislike about newt. i just wonder if there's enough time. >> but governor, would willard be able to use that against newt gingrich, or is it better for him to just let it ride out and he kind of just gets the nomination by default and then put all of his energy in a general election? >> no. i think joan is right. time is running out for mitt romney because let's assume hypothetically newt gingrich wins in iowa, comes close in new hampshire and wins in south carolina. >> yeah. >> mitt romney could be out of the box right then and there. i mean, it's possible. >> right. >> so i think romney, who has tried to be -- pursue the front-runner strategy where he doesn't criticize any other republicans, he sort of stays

above the fray, i think he can't do that. i think he has to unload on gingrich and hope to do second place showing in iowa, win in new hampshire and come back and win in south carolina, but -- but time is running short, and i think they have got -- the romney campaign has to change their strategy. >> well, it's five weeks from today they start voting. joan, governor, if you think the pictures of him sitting on the couch with nancy pelosi something, you wait and see if he's the nominee when i put out pictures of him and i and president obama on tour together. that ought to really help him with the tea party. >> and al, there's a picture of newt and i are at the press club together talking about infrastructure. >> hold it. don't release them yet. >> we'll come out with a whole barrage of pictures. >> i feel so sad. i have no pictures of me and newt what. am i going to do? >> joan, no pictures of you. they will have to settle for us. governor ed rendell, joan walsh, thank you for your time tonight. >> thanks, al. >> ahead, republicans couldn't

do it, so democrats are showing them how to hammer willard romney, and they are not holding back. plus, chris christie blaming the president again? >> what the hell are we paying you for? what have you been doing exactly? >> he was fighting for the middle class, chris. payback time ahead. and nothing says holiday season like santa, toys and machine guns. yes, kids with guns posing with santa. it's time to change gun laws. you're watching "politics nation" on msnbc. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. premier of the packed bag. you know organization is key... and so is having a trusted assistant. and you...rent from national. because only national

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despite all of his flip-flopping, willard "mitt" romney has escaped the wrath of

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learn where to find your number at drscholls.com. welcome back. just five weeks until the iowa caucuses, but the battle for 2012 is already between democrats and willard "mitt" romney. the fight turned white hot in just the last 24 hours. beginning with that searching dnc ad we showed you yesterday. tearing into the two mitts. >> from the creator of i'm running for office for pete's sake comes the story of two men trapped in one body.

mitt versus mitt. >> oh, that's brutal, but willard is trying to brush it off. >> it shows that they're awfully afraid of facing me in the general election. they want to throw the primary proses to anybody but me. bring it on. we're ready for them. >> that's not the last word. the dnc took another shot today with a video called new hamsphire's voters or mitt romney, a dishonest fraud. it features people talking about that notorious romney ad that used president obama's words out of context. >> it seems that if you do something with a commercial like that, that he just may do it with other things. >> i mean, that's a deal-breaker i think there. >> mitt romney has gone which ever way the wind is blowing. in this case i think he'll do it again and again and again until someone says enough is enough. >> the dnc means business so far. the party has spent more than $6 million on tv ads compared to

just 134,000 by the romney campaign. joining me now is bob slum, democratic strategist and professor of new york university, and nia malika-henderson, a national political report for the "washington post" and a writer for their 2012 blog. bob, let me start with you. why are the democrats so focused on willard? >> well, number one, want to make sure -- define this race early. make sure it's a choice, not a referendum. he's a target-rich environment. there's a lot you can say about him. i think democrats will move on from the flip-flops if he's the nominee to talking about what he did to destroy jobs in the private sector and his pathetic record on jobs as governor of massachusetts. one of the really interesting things is, you know, all the flip-flops are there and the difference between him and gingrich, and gingrich has his flip-flops. >> right. >> is that republican primary voters believe that in his heart gingrich is a conservative, and

they believe that romney in his heart is a con man, that he's just doing and saying these things to try to get the nomination. >> now nia malika, mr. romney was on fox saying that his words are being taken out of context, believe it or not. he actually said that, and that he's only flip-flopped on one thing and that's abortion. watch. >> there's no question but that people are going to take snippets and take things out of context and try to show that there are differences wherein in some cases there are not but one place i changed my mind, which was with regards to the government's role relating to abortion. i am pro-life. i did not take that position years ago, and that's the same change that occurred with ronald reagan, with george w. bush, with some of the leaders in the pro-life movement. >> now, as much as i am totally against anybody taking somebody's word out of context, willard, and particularly one that has done it so well like

you have, let me remind you, nia malika, just in case you're not looking at your notes, some of the famous flip-flops that willard has been accused of, and i think there's a fairly established record. he's flipped on immigration, supported an amnesty position in 2007 and now he's against amnesty. abortion, pro-choice, now he's anti-abortion. health care reform, against health care reform law that's based on his own massachusetts plan. guns, once he said he didn't line up with the nra. later, he supported rights to bear arms. his name, last week's debate, he says his first name is mitt. nia malika? >> no, and he's name-dropping ronald reagan in that clip there, but in a debate against ted kennedy he sort of walked

back and said he wasn't a supporter of a reagan revolution and called himself an independent. there are many, many flip flops, many shifts, many nuanced positions. you almost need a map to keep track of every change in position that he's taken over these last years, and i think that video, it's like 30 seconds, really captured what those critical issues are going to be for conservatives i.talked to some conservatives out in iowa who said that conservatives themselves were forwarding that ad to other conservatives and saying that they couldn't vote for mitt romney because of everything laid out in that ad, and there was a focus group out there with some evangelicals who basically said that mitt romney is an opportunist, so i think one of the thing that democrats are doing by really, you know, hammering mitt romney on these changes is really articulating this message, not only to democrats, but to republicans, conservative republicans, and in that way they are really going to stretch this race out. they are going to hammer romney, leave newt gingrich alone or

whoever the number two is, and this could mean that this fight ends up going into june or july. >> now, let's look, bob, at the map. the battleground map. the 11 tossup states fit nicely in about three regions. five in the midwest, three in the new south and then the west. where is the problem -- where are the problems for the president and what has to happen if the president is going to successfully secure this in your judgment with no real cliff hanger? >> well, this election might be a cliffhanger depending on all sorts of events, especially the economy. >> okay. >> but i think the president has advantages as well as problems. he obviously has problems in some of the midwestern states because of the condition of the economy. the republicans in congress are trying to do everything they can to keep it from getting better, but his better, reverend. >> so when you're talking midwest, the states i pointed out, wisconsin, pennsylvania, ohio, michigan, iowa.

>> yes. >> and -- but the problem that the -- the advantage he has, and you'll remember this from 2004, because senator kerry had taken public funding, he had limited resources. >> right. >> so we had to write off at the end of the campaign, we had to write off states we very well could have carried. we had to stop advertising in colorado which we barely lost. the advantage that the president has is he's not in federal funding. they are going to raise somewhere between $800 million and $1 billion, and they are going to compete in every one of these states and they are going to compete very vigorously so they have about four or five different paths to get to that 270 electoral votes. >> now nia-malika, with all of our saying this and all of our talking about willard being a flip-flopper and taking him as somewhat funny, independents in a poll by pew says that independents go for romney 53% to 41%. how does the president,

nia-malika, no one covers this closer than you do, how does the president appeal more to independents without alienating his base that is now energized by occupy and 99% kind of politics? >> yeah. i think that's going to be tough, and i think one of the reasons mitt romney appeals to independents so well is because independents sort of change their minds, too. you know, maybe they will vote republican in one election and then democrat in the next election, but i think one of the things that barack obama is going to try to do, again, is really try to paint mitt romney -- i mean, there are obviously two strategies here. one is that he's a flip-flopper, but other is that he's beholden to the tea party, that he's radical and extreme and that he really embodies this 1% that everybody seems to have a problem with. it's really this income inequality that has sparked the occupy wall street movement. he embodies that, fanned he's in the white house, he will

essentially go to bat for that 1%. so i think that's going to be something that the white house really tries to articulate. i mean, they have got a lot of room i think in this map. 365-173 was the matchup before, so they have got some room. they are going to try to expand the map, even compete in places like texas, arizona and georgia. not likely that they would win those states, but if they force romney or gingrich or whoever the nominee is to spend money there, then that means they are just that much more competitive. >> yeah. >> all right. bob slum, thank you. >> thank you. >> nia-malika, thank you. thank both of you for your time. >> thank you. ahead, governor scott walker is fighting for his political life. so republicans in wisconsin are digging deep into their bag of dirty tricks. we'll expose them tonight. and here's a big surprise. mr. money, man newt gingrich is no fan of the 99% movement.

surprised? >> i call on the president to repudiate the concept of the 99 and the 1. >> comments like that are only fueling the movement, and here's a sign it's time for gun reform. santa, the kids and guns! it's happening. that's next. usa prime credit... this peggy... hi, i'm cashing in my points... peggy?

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with just a month before christmas santa claus is coming to town, and if you're in arizona, he may be packing heat. an arizona gun club is charging people $10 to pose for a picture with santa and guns, including machine guns. that's right, machine guns. even little kids get to play around with these guns after telling santa what they want for christmas, and people there say it's all in good fun. >> i think it's going to be all in fun from those who support the second amendment and those who don't, whether you're a gun advocate or not, you should have a lot of fun with it. >> sure, just have a lot of fun with it. but maybe it's not so shocking once you remember it's in arizona. this is the state where it's legal to bring guns into bars, government buildings and school grounds. it's the state that doesn't

require permits to carry concealed weapons. it's the state where congresswoman gabby giffords and 128 other people were shot in january. the attack left six people dead, but republicans just march on packing heat. just this month the house passed a bill that forces states to accept concealed gun permits from other states, even if they have weaker laws. this is the republicans' vision for america. guns in bars, concealed weapons everywhere and santa's packing heat. let's hope the voters adopt a new year's resolution, to roll back these radical laws. with thermacare heatwraps. thermacare works differently. it's the only wrap with patented heat cells that penetrate deep to relax, soothe, and unlock tight muscles. for up to 16 hours of relief, try thermacare. our machines help identify early stages of cancer, and it's something that we're extremely proud of. you see someone who is saved because of this technology,

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it is historically false. >> it's divisive. it's un-american. you know what i think is un-american, the fact that the average amount of bush tax cuts for the top 1% is greater than the average income of the other 99% of the population. that's my idea of un-american, but make no mistake. newt's not the only republican waging warfare based on class in washington. the gop is refusing to match the payroll tax cut that would put $1,300 in the pockets of 160 million american workers. why? because of a millionaire's surtax that would have small impact on 345,000 americans. think about that. millions will suffer because republicans want to protect 0.2% of taxpayers. republicans flat out refusing to negotiate on taxes.

yet chris christie of all people has the audacity to blame the president for not doing more. >> i was angry this weekend listening to the spin coming out of the administration about the failure of the super committee and that the president knew it was due for failure so he didn't get involved. well, then what the hell are we paying you for? it's doomed for failure so i'm not getting involved. what have you been doing exactly? >> what has the president been doing? he's been fighting for jobs. he's been crusading for the middle class. what exactly has your party been doing, governor? what are we paying the ones that were on the super committee from your party? why are we paying them? joining me now is another crusader for the middle class, mark moriel, president and ceo of the national urban league. mark, thanks for coming to the show tonight. >> reverend, congratulations on the show.

good to be with you. >> good to be with you. >> thanks for your advocacy. >> how can we take care of the 99% if the republican party is so focused on protecting the top 1%? how do we take care of the 99? >> one thing newt and chris christie ought to do is call the folks in congress saying give us an up or down vote on the president's american jobs act which has never been voted on because of filibusters in the united states senate so it's important for people to know there's never been a vote on the merits of the american jobs act which is the president's jobs plan which is based a lot on the jobs plan that the national urban league put together that many such as you have supported. the 99% need jobs. they also need jobs that pay good wages, and what they need is less of a conversation that's about protecting loopholes, tax deductions, special interests in the tax code for a handful of americans and a fight for working and middle class americans. we need jobs. we need them now. the president's plan is the only

plan pending in congress that would create jobs. >> now, you and the national urban league, along with all of us in the civil rights community, national network and others have been pushing about jobs and saying it's even more painful in communities of color. this morning the "new york times" did a big story in which it says, among other things, the central role played by government -- government employment in black communities is hard to overstate. african-americans in the public sector earn 25% more than other black workers, and the jobs have been regarded as respectable, stable work for college graduates, allowing them to buy homes, send children to private colleges and achieve other markers of middle class life that otherwise were closed to them. >> so we're talking about teachers, school strayedors, police officers, civil servants, tax collectors, deputy sheriffs, people who work in court systems across the country, state and

federal employees, people that work for city government. people in the black community have made progress. when you see governors like the governor of wisconsin and other governors assault government. >> right. >> want to cut back on state and local government, when you see a congress want to roll back support for housing, for education that impacts the american cities, it's going to disproportionately impact black american workers who have made progress in these sorts of public jobs over the years. >> and these are the americans that everybody wants to extol but that are being wiped out with this lack of jobs. >> it's time to stop demonizing public employees. >> that's right. >> i say we shouldn't demonize people that get up, work every day, do an honest day's living. we need to support them and we need to recognize that in the last eight to ten months, reverend, as the private sector has created jobs, the public sector has lost jobs. >> that's the threat. >> this has caused more unemployment in this nation. >> now, last month, october

15th, you and i, along with labor, lee sanders and randy winegardner had 25,000 people marching in washington and we're mobilizing around jobs and justice. we're mobilizing around a real plan. we weren't out there marching to be watching. you have a 12-point jobs plan that will help all americans. >> our 12-point jobs plan that you can find online includes a number of ideas. summer jobs, green empowerment zones, training and infrastructure, and infrastructure bank, public/private partnerships, a wide range of ideas. right now what congress needs to do is pass a comprehensive jobs plan. what we have now is foot dragging, but, you know, i'm proud that local elected officials, like burrel ellis, the county executive in dekalb county. >> georgia. >> where i was approximately two weeks ago are doing things at the local level to rebuild

infrastructure. here in the state of new york, the governor of new york i know is considering new steps that he can take at the state level to put more people back to work. we need state and local officials not to wait on washington but also to do things that they can do with the powers that they have to rebuild jobs and put people back to work in their communities and we need to say no to the efforts to cut back on teachers, police officers, fire fighters, public workers at the local level who serve us every day, jobs that people in our community earn good wages, with good benefits and have an opportunity to participate in sensible and fair retirement programs. >> and this is not partisan, marc, but we'll work with anyone if they are working for all americans. i toured with newt gingrich on education, so we'll work with people, but when people are saying close the door on public sector jobs, let's block everything that the president does, how do you work when you're killing our communities? >> it is obstructionism. it is irrational. it's the kind of thing that

divides the nation. when you say the president's plan should not be voted on and you fail to really offer any sort of counter plan, you're being an obstructionist. i say let's get a vote now. i think people should definitely take to the streets, if next, take action at the local level, if necessary. we have to put americans back to work. it's not acceptable for there to be 14 million people out of work. >> well, it's great to see you on the front lines. >> and it's great to see you. >> next friday in 25 cities we're following up the jobs and justice march. people can go to nationalactionnetwork.net to find out what cities and what we're doing. marc morrall, thanks for coming on the show tonight. >> check out our plan and check out your urban league affiliate in your local community. >> all right. >> marc morrall. >> thanks, reverend. >> ahead, scott walker is running scared, and his republican friends are fighting dirty. that's next. let's see if we can get one past the defense.

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collecting welfare overpayments from 20 years ago. but the eyes of the progressive world are on wisconsin where governor scott walker is fighting for his political life. less than two weeks into their two-month deadline, organizers have collected 300,000 signatures. that's half of their ultimate goal of 540,000, and they still got six weeks to go. remember, if you do unpopular things, you become unpopular. joining me now is milwaukee mayor tom barrett. he ran against walker in the governor's race and msnbc contributor melissa harris-perry, a professor for political science at tulane, columnist for "the nation" and "ebony" magazine chose as one of the top 100 blacks in the country. mayor barrett, do you think scott walker will be recalled? >> well, i think that when you have right now is experts on both sides, democrats and republicans, who believe very

strongly that based on the activity we've seen just in the last 12 days that there certainly will be a recall election that's forced. as you noted in your introduction there, there have already been over 300,000 signatures that have been collected. that comes out to 1,046 signatures per hour over the first 12 days. it is breath taking to see the number of citizens throughout this entire state who are out on weekends and evenings collecting signatures. i have never seen anything like it in my entire life. >> can you believe this guy defeated you, i mean, this guy? >> well, it was a different year. 2010 was a different year, and what we have now is we've got ten months, 11 months of people seeing how he would govern, and it really has been governance through division. it's pitting people against each other, and i think the people of wisconsin are rejecting that. they do not want a leader at the most difficult times we face to pit people against each other. they want a leader who is going to bring this state together, and that certainly has not been the approach that he has taken.

>> will you run against him, mayor barrett? will you go back for a rematch? >> i'm running right now -- i'm running for mayor, running for re-election for mayor. i love being the mayor of the city of milwaukee so that's what i'm looking at. >> professor melissa harris-perry, let me show you an ad from the pro-walker side complaining about sour grapes. >> i'm not big on recalls, and i think at this point, in my opinion, it feels a little like sour grapes. it's, you know, we didn't get our way so we want to change the outcome. it's not about being popular, you know. it's not about getting the votes. this is what is right. >> professor, is it sour grapes? >> well, look, you know, the interesting thing is in part i am actually not a big fan of recall elections either just in pure theory. when you're looking at recalls, what you're looking at is a broken democracy because it's a suggestion that either you have a candidate who didn't tell the truth and, therefore, is pursuing a set of policies completely opposite from what this candidate said that he or

she would do, or you have an electorate that wasn't paying attention and is getting just what the person said but not liking it, so typically, you know, i would also be, you know, someone not really supportive of recall elections, but in this case and when you see the enormous vast overreach of this particular governor on a whole variety of issues that are really quite different from what this governor said he would do, that he would produce private sector job that he planned to do through the massic basic corporate tax cuts but did so by offsetting them against all of the people of the state of wisconsin, you know, i was just in milwaukee just last month and having conversations with people who kept saying to me i never thought that this would happen here, an attack on public school teachers, an attack on ordinary working people that milwaukee and wisconsin was a place that always saw itself really as a bellwether of how regular ordinary people come together in tough circumstances and kind of make, you know, make solutions

to problems. >> well, let us not forget we're dealing with a man that got on the phone thinking he was talking to mr. koch, getting conspireing, and, i mean, he was not telling people he was going after collective bargaining. >> exactly. >> so part of what you're saying is that the candidate told people things that was not what he was going to do or they weren't listening, you might have a little bit of both here in wisconsin, but they are correcting it, professor. >> they are, and -- look, in this case, again, what i said before is normally recall elections mean something is really broken in democracy, but the way that this is happening, massive public education campaigns, door-to-door knocking of citizens talking to one another about what's going on, finding out what the real policies are. i mean, it's hard to imagine anything better for democracy than what is going on in wisconsin right now. now, the question of whether or not they can actually get a candidate who can actually defeat walker i think is a separate strategic question and

one that we can't answer yet, but the very effort to do this campaign, the very effort to go out and educate one another and really, you know, again, because part of what walker did here was to pass these more restrictive voter i.d. laws as well, and so this push is all about getting people back into the system. >> i don't know how they will find a candidate. i don't know -- whoa, mayor barry. let me go back to you, not that i would ever be suggesting anything, but let me ask you. was your opponent, mr. walker, did he run on breaking the collective bargaining and doing what he's done in terms of public workers and teachers? did he say this and people voted for it, or did he run on something else and people thought this was about something else, and then when he got in he came with this kind of policy? >> well, can i tell you, reverend, he never once in the entire year i was a candidate for governor, never once mentioned that he was going to

go after the unions and in essence destroy them. in fact, the first indication we got of that was early december about, a month after the election, and then in a conversation you referenced before when you thought he was talking to the koch brothers, he used the phrase in espens, the quote was, drop the bomb, so it was clearly a surprise attack, and i think what happens when someone drops a bomb is you either obliterate the people or a village, or if you're not still in obliterating them, they fight back, like they have never fought before. >> that's right. >> and that's what's happened here. is he tried to drop the bomb. he thought that within five or six days he'd push this legislation through with little fanfare, and what happened instead is you had two months of the most active citizen demonstrations that we have seen since the vietnam war, and people have not cooled down since then. they have been angry since then because it was really a basic attack on their social structure. >> they have to channel that anger to the rolls.

milwaukee mayor tom barrett and professor haitian-perry, thank you for joining us. we'll be right back. we're america's natural gas and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses... ... and giving us cleaner rides to work and school... and tomorrow, we could do even more. cleaner, domestic, abundant and creating jobs now. we're america's natural gas. the smarter power, today. learn more at anga.us.

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conrad murray, the doctor convicted in the overdose death of michael jackson, was sentenced today to four years in prison for involuntary manslaughter. before handing down the sentence, the judge had some harsh words for dr. murray. >> dr. murray created a set of circumstances and became involved in a cycle of horrible medicine which violated his sworn obligation for money, fame, prestige and whatever else may have occurred. >> murray received the maximum sentence, but he'll probably serve only half the time because he's a non-violent offender. crowds chanted outside the

courthouse after the sentencing. >> four years is not enough. four years is not enough. four years is not enough. >> the crowds know what they are talking about. today is not a day to celebrate. it doesn't end injustice suffered by michael jackson or change the fact that his children have lost their father or that the jacksons have lost their son and their brother. friends of his like me will miss him as a person. the world will miss him as an entertain entertainer. people have weaknesses. are you not hired to play on them. you're hired to maintain your oath. we must keep fighting to make sure everyone understands that everyone must be accountable to their