show, what you're doing up at this hour. at this hour, our producer john tower has some answers. what are they saying? >> we've got one from joel. he writes, i have a ruptured disk that prevents sleep. "way too early" is a way of distracting me from discomfort. >> we hope it's habit forming, we don't want this to be a one-time visit. can't we just have someone awake because they like the show? it's always somebody who ruptured the disc in their back and has no choice but to turn on the tv. i'm up because my daughter had her first christmas nightmare about an old chubby man entering our house during the night. i hope the chubby man was wearing a red suit and a white beard, otherwise you've got a big problem on your hands. "morning joe" starts right now. . as newt gingrich rises in the polls, there's growing scrutiny into his work after he left congress.

"the times" reports through his health care made millions of dollars helping companies promote while gaining access to government officials. >> that's an outrageous accusation, yes, boo, yes, how dare you accuse a former congressman with no discernible skills of raking in cash by lobbying his former colleagues and future fellow lobbyists. we know, we know this isn't true of newt because newt's aides have pointed out he is not a registered lobbyist. and if he is not registered, he is not a lobbyist. the same reason i have not registered my audi a-8, legally it is not a car, which is why i can drive it on the sidewalk. >> it's beautiful! there's the tree. good morning, everyone.

it is thursday, december 1st. we're counting down. can you believe it? welcome to "morning joe." the tree does look beautiful. lit last night. i know a part of my family was there. with us onset we have the director of the earth institute at columbia university economist dr. jeffrey sachs, and we also have the host of cnbc's madd money, jim cramer. thank you for much for joining us. a lot to talk about this morning. first of all, ron paul has a new ad out on newt gingrich which really crystallizes everything. everything we've been talking about on this set. sometimes maybe not as effectively and maybe just a tad bit too emotional on my part, but ron paul crystallizes it perfectly. and we'll play that for you in a little bit. also, interview with mitt romney, that's a little interesting. little defensive. we'll show you that, as well. but first, the big headline this morning, some optimism this morning on wall street coming

off the dow's seventh largest gain of all time. markets surged yesterday wiping out last week's slump. the dow leapt 490 points capping a 7% gain over the last three days. wednesday's session was the best showing in more than two years. investors are boosted by a joint effort between the federal reserve and other central banks to offer emergency loans to lower the cost of borrowing. >> okay. okay. okay. >> what? >> come on. jeffrey sachs, sound and fury, signifying nothing. we have a huge surge in the stock market while the economy continues to stagger on. one more example of a complete disconnect between wall street and main street. >> well, basically we've got a very, very serious crisis. europe is falling apart, the united states can't agree on doing anything, and the only institutions that can act at all right now are the central banks and six of them acted to pump in more liquidity yesterday, but

also very interestingly, china's central bank did, as well. and what's really amazing is how china moves the world. china's in bad shape too for the first time they're saying that their manufacturing is stuck. so the world economy is in bad situation. this wasn't a rally because of good news, this was a rally because money was pumped into the economy. >> jim cramer, a huge day, though, for wall street. >> well, i totally agree with everything you said, and i think this was a recognition of how bad things really are. that's what central bankers all act coordinatinglcoordinating. i do want to offer another opinion about the united states. many people thought we were doing poorly, but we had an adp report, a big payroll company shows twice as many people as we thought had been hired during last month, we have employment numbers tomorrow. we've got really terrific numbers coming from autos, from retail. i'd say we're doing better than we thought, europe is doing far worse than we thought. and they do cancel each other

out. >> but looking at the surge that we saw in the past 24 hours, over the last 18 months, there have been several of them, and they've withered away. what are the chances this won't, as well? >> i think this will wither away. i felt and told people yesterday on madd money, they should stay the course, don't worry, we're going to see our way through the united states. this is their 2008. this is a terrible time for them. i think that we got that coordinated action because i believe that we were going to have a major bank failure in the next ten days. and their banks over there are gigantic. and you have to look at it like that. how huge they are is shocking to people. don't want to mention any particular banks' names, it's very tentative and sensitive over there. but the banks are so interrelated, even though it seems completely ridiculous, they would hurt our banks very badly. >> cramer, should the casual american who doesn't follow wall street closely pay attention to these peaks and valleys? to somebody who is not in the world the way you are looking at it every day, it looks like,

well, great, that went up today, up 500 points, it'll be down tomorrow, i still don't have a job, my salary hasn't moved at all. should we even watch these numbers? >> this is going to hurt my own show, no. no, i'll tell you why. because the average american -- >> we will still watch. >> the average american is hostage to the u.s. economy and as much as i think if you own citigroup stock you're not going to do well during this period, if you own classic american companies that don't do a lot of business overseas they're going to go down very big and then they'll bounce back. again, our economy is doing better than we thought, it's just that doing better than we thought doesn't put money, bread, doesn't put money in your pocket, doesn't put bread on the table. >> still got to watch "mad money," though. >> he's got a lot of buttons, and sometimes he talks about the fire -- >> the fire --

>> the inns, we had thanksgiving dinner at the inn, we invited 17 patrons and health, safety, and fire. i decided to take it up to code. >> have you really? >> code. i can deal with code. >> okay. let's talk about what else is going on. >> all right. we'll get to newt gingrich because i talked about that. his poll numbers are on the rise and gingrich is trying to convince republican primary voters that he is the candidate to beat. he's sort of anointed himself really. the former house speaker -- >> wait, wait, wait. when you say he anointed himself, are you talking about when he took credit for winning the cold war? or when he said this race is not all about me? >> well, why don't we play it? and then we can decide. i think it's a mixture of the two. no, that was just sheer naked arrogance. >> he was a celebrity, according to him, he won the cold war, and this race is now all about me. >> and he gets paid tons of money for his historical knowledge. the former house speaker is saying he will surpass mitt

romney because of his record of consistent, conservative, accomplishments. >> i'm clearly the more conservative candidate by any rational standard. i had a 90% american conservative union standing for 20 years, i helped ronald reagan and jack kempf develop supply-side economics, i helped defeat communism in the congress. people are saying, you know, i think we need newt gingrich because we need somebody who can debate obama, we need somebody who has actually done it before, we need somebody with very substantial big ideas, and so i think whereas i would have thought originally it was going to be mitt and not mitt, i think it may turn out to be newt and not newt, and that's a very different formula than frankly -- i'm willing to redesign our campaign strategy because we're at least 60 days ahead of where i thought we'd be. >> i decided today i was going to come on and be kind of mellow about newt. >> please don't. >> but he just said he helped

lead the defeat of communism, which i just -- dear god above, please show this man's mouth some mercy. please give him some restraint in these troubled times. >> hen he first used the term evil empire, what did you think? >> you know, about the same thing i thought when he went to the berlin wall and said mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. that was a great moment. when he decided to deploy the persian to the cruise missiles in western europe -- and when he married nancy, i think when newt married nancy. i think that's when we figured out that he was not going to be a celebrity, but instead, he would be president of the united states. and you talked a little ronnie jr., gingrich jr., and he will tell you too that his father, a powerful man who won the cold war was distant.

not mean, just a little distant, they didn't really relate really well. but you look, though at when newt -- no, seriously willie. >> you going to defend newt on this? >> no, we're talking movies here and everybody's all american. >> oh, mercy. >> when newt said go out there and win one for the newtster. >> i have newt in my fantasy team. brought it back. took him over aaron rogers. >> the pope. pope john paul might have something to say about that, as well. >> and margaret thatcher. >> jeffrey sachs. >> i was in the polish parliament the day that communism ended in poland, and a new prime minister came in. >> were they shouting newt, newt, newt -- >> and i was in the kremlin the day they said the generals just ended the soviet union, and newt's name didn't come up. >> it didn't?

>> didn't he leave the solidarity movement? i can't remember. >> somehow, mika, you know -- he just wasn't -- >> he was into banks, wasn't he? >> seriously -- >> in the shipyard. >> it was amazing. >> newt, such a deep background. >> solidarity. >> we joke about it, but this has always been a serious, serious, personal problem with newt gingrich. one of his top lieutenants wrote a book later and talked about how disconnected from reality newt was. and rich galen yesterday was on the show, anybody that ever works with him knows that he will whip himself into a fury and will start tearing up saying don't you realize western civilization rests on my shoulder just like churchill, just like, you know, fighting the nazis. he's always been that way, it is

frightful. it is -- frightening thing and nothing to do with ideology. he's not right on ideology because he's too all over the place. he's politically unmoored. but you hear him say something like that, such an insult to ronald reagan, to george h.w. bush, such an insult to -- >> mikhail gorbachev. >> pope. >> such an insult to pope john paul ii, who was one of the key players. >> brzezinski. >> brzezinski and the pope talked about it a little bit. there were that lot of cold war heroes, newt gingrich was a back bencher. >> and this 48 hours after saying i didn't need the money to lobby because i made so much darn money when, clearly, it's shades of lobbying at the very least, but forget the lie, forget the lie, to be so disconnected from the people --

from the very people that you're appealing -- >> i'm afraid he believes it. that's the most frightening part. let's move on. >> there's this ad. >> let's run paul. i'd like to see it. >> i'll show it to you. it's the latest attack on newt gingrich coming from texas congressman ron paul. in a scathing web video, the paul campaign labels gingrich, "serial hypocrite." >> beyond the words, there's a real question of policy. and a real question of values. and a real question of seriousness. the real question of policy. >> we don't always see eye-to-eye, do we, newt? >> no, but we do agree, our country must take action to address climate change. >> newt gingrich has been on both sides of a long list of issues, sometimes in the same week. >> i don't think right wing social engineering is any more

desirable than left wing social engineering. >> with allies like that, who needs left? >> you want to put people in jail, let's look at the politicians who profited from the environment, politicians -- >> newt gingrich on the defense for taking $1.5 million. >> freddie mac paid gingrich at least $1.6 million. >> $1.6 million, some of it just before the housing market collapsed. >> everything that gingrich railed against when he was in the house, he went the other way when he got paid to go the other way. >> now, that's a pretty damning attack, when you put everything next to each other. >> it's his words. >> his own words, the most effective ads always. let's put perspective on this. it wasn't long ago everyone was laughing at newt gingrich. he was going on the greek cruise, his entire campaign staff abandon him. here he is now drawing the attention not just ron paul, but more importantly mitt romney, couple nights ago on fox news romney started going after explicitly newt gingrich.

the romney campaign is preparing an attack, full-fledged attack on newt gingrich with ads and everything else calling him a washington insider and a flip-flopper. the romney campaign is taking newt gingrich very seriously. >> i think newt gingrich is first serious challenge they've had. you look at the numbers. and this happens very quickly, we have to put a caveat on this. you know, rick perry was in first place by a good bit. herman cain was in first place, they did well all across the southeast, this week, though, if you're mitt romney, and we're getting closer and closer, you know, newt's way ahead in south carolina, he's way ahead in florida, he's way ahead in other states. if newt wins iowa and then wins south carolina and then wins florida, he's off to the races. so mitt does have something to worry about. >> and clearly there's data that suggests we should focus on him. there's clearly support and interest in him.

which i find confusing, but it's a part of the reality that we have to look at. there is a base out there that's attracted to him. >> the thing is, jim cramer, you have with all of these other people, say michele bachmann, she's relatively new to national politics, you can say the same thing about herman cain, newt gingrich is a brand. he's a name brand. and as conservatives go from one flawed candidate to another, they are desperately looking for the antiromney. and at least with a guy named newt gingrich you can say, you know what? he did -- he did bring republicans to the speakership for the first time in 40 years. he's a brand they know, so maybe he doesn't melt away as quickly as the other pretenders. >> he does seem very teflon like on all of these different charges. fannie and freddie the two most disgraced institutions of the housing crisis. in the media say he's affiliated

with them. no one seems to think of him as one someone who took money from bad agencies. >> he's affiliated with them after saying politicians affiliated with them should go to jail. >> hey, mr. speaker -- >> who says that when they know they've got $1.5 million from fannie or freddie and say anyone who has profited from them should go to jail. >> someone who doesn't think that ten articles in the "new york times" mean anything. i saw him attack maria bartiromo when we were at the gop debate. attacks her, basically says people hate the media and he wants to join them. >> it's very funny last night, i went on twitter at the end of the day for a few minutes. and a lot of anger and rage from newt supporters. and they kept saying, why do you hate newt? why is it so -- first, i don't hate newt. i never even got to know newt. i felt kind of bad when the conservatives got together and drove him out of the speakership

because he lost his ideological moorings. you talk to any of these guys, talk to matt salmon, mark sanford, and they will tell you that newt came in as a contract with america conservative and he lost his way. it's not personal. i don't really -- i would say this about my mother. if my mom was like saying, hey, you know, anybody that got money from fannie and freddie should go to jail and i would say mom, you got money from fannie and freddie. it's not personal to say this guy, to me at least, is not fit to be president of the united states. >> i think it's fairly clear in terms of your analysis it is definitely not personal. i would have to say that i don't think i have the most unbiassed view about him. and so -- and that i -- i get upset and it's definitely personal, and so i should be

transparent about that. i should be transparent about that. >> i think you've been very transparent about that. >> but what i don't understand is when -- this is black and white. >> it is. >> this is black and white. this is -- >> seriously, when people get angry at me for just putting quotation marks around newt gingrich's words, and when they get angry at me for saying he attacked paul ryan, when they get angry at me for saying he was the biggest lobbyist for fannie and freddie, when they get angry with me for saying he was the biggest supporter of medicare part d, a program that's bankrupting america today, the most socialistic program. if newt loves to throw socialism around, the most socialistic program since lbj's great society, they could get angry with me all they want to. it's newt's words. as your hero ronald reagan

said -- >> yes. >> facts are stubborn things. >> this guy's the ultimate insider influence peddler that we have. and that's not what's going to play in 2012. so this is another little blip, another -- >> or great news for obama. >> well, i think in the end, it is great news for mitt romney. i think mitt romney once again has a flawed challenger. >> you better believe it. >> just like rick perry before and michele bachmann before and you go through the list. herman cain before, he has another flawed challenger that will take him on that he will defeat. all right. coming up, we're going to talk to senators claire mccaskill and pat toomey. also niall ferguson will be here. and in a few minutes donny deutsch. but first, let's go to weather channel meteorologist todd santos for a check on the forecast. todd? >> hey there, mika, very good morning to you.

we have 340 days to go till the election, let's start with sunshine. all the way into the southeast, does make for a cool morning for many of us. a lot of areas, upper 30s to low 40s, back down towards d.c. at this hour. there's a look at it for this afternoon. cool down into portions of florida. 55 in miami right now. and i should mention the southwest if you're flying in that direction, we could see gusts in los angeles upwards of 40 plus miles per hour today that will elevate the fire danger, bigger winds in the mountains. some of these high-wind warnings into the daytime on friday. we'll check in again with the winds and the forecast of the rest of the country coming up. you're watching "morning joe." we're america's natural gas and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs

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kind period. for a practical reason. and i'm going to be really direct, okay. i was charging $60,000 a speech. and the number of speeches was going up, not down. normally celebrities leave and they gradually sell fewer speeches every year, we were selling more. >> okay. he doesn't need to lobby, he's a celebrity. he is bigger than brangelina and tomkat put together, or at least his head is. >> amazing. it's amazing. 25 past the hour, time to look at the morning papers. we'll start with "usa today." it says credit cards are making a comeback. on black friday, payments with credit cards were up nearly 7% from a year earlier. applications for credit cards are up for the second straight quarter. >> and the financial times says warren buffett who has expressed concerns about the newspaper industry in the past has agreed

to buy his hometown newspaper company, "the omaha world herald." some wonder if the deal was more sentimental than profitable. buffett worked as a paper boy there growing up and has professed to read five newspapers per day. >> and "the mobile press register" says ken feinberg overseeing the compensation fund is offering shrimp and crab harvesters four times the amount of their documented loss in 2010. the new formula comes amid uncertainty over the marketability of shrimp and crab from the gulf. >> and boy, that's a real problem as a guy from, you know, mobile is my backyard, pensacola, i've got a lot of friends in the business, and you can have people from washington, d.c. telling you all you want that shrimp and crab and fish that came out of that gulf when it was soaked in oil for months and months is safe, or that's

what they told us down at ground zero, remember? epa telling us afterwards, hey, it's safe to keep working at ground zero. we're just not going to know for a while. >> yeah. that's a very interesting parallel. >> and here's one. "the charlotte observer" says 93-year-old evangelist billy graham was admitted to a hospital in nashville yesterday with a possible case of pneumonia. the hospital said he's in good spirits and in stable condition and obviously i've already -- we were talking a couple of weeks ago what billy graham has meant to my family and so many of my friends in the south and really across the nation and the world. our thoughts and prayers are with billy right now. >> absolutely. >> and his family. great family. let's go to politico. talk to somebody who is really not that great. >> no, not at all. >> leave it up to him. >> come on, it's 6:00 in the morning. how are you? >> guy wakes up in the middle of the night to do the show.

>> i know. the thing is, though, i'm not going to put him in -- >> -- defeated communism, and that -- >> he did. he defeated communism. >> he's so rich. >> he's never lobbied. >> i was going to say. >> not once. >> defeated communism, two, never lobbied, three, never said paul ryan's plan was social engineering on the right. >> no. >> four, never bragged about being a rockefeller republican. this could go on. so, yes, maybe -- >> don't think he has a credit line at tiffany's either. >> i don't think he has a credit line at tiffany's either. >> i am historically transformational figure, yet, people don't know it yet, they will soon. >> i will say he did say he was the most professorial politician since woodrow wilson.

>> and he gets $60,000 per speech. >> and he's cute in an opie kind of way. >> your lead story this morning, mitt romney, the campaign preparing its line of attack now on newt gingrich. take us through it. >> yeah, they clearly see it as a two-person race. they see newt as being a very flawed candidate, but feel they have to go after him both directly and indirectly in the next couple of weeks. they're going to target his flip-flops, the areas they think he's weak on conservative issues, and most interestingly, they're going to bring mitt romney's family out more. have his wife around, kids around a lot more to draw a contrast with newt gingrich's personal life. they think he's very vulnerable there. you listen to iowa conservatives, he is probably pretty vulnerable there with a core group of republican voters. they don't mind that contrast at all. >> do they view him differently than the previous challengers? whether you talk about rick perry, herman cain, or michele bachmann? the others who have passed through the spot, do they view

him as a stronger challenger? or is it because it's closer to the caucuses? >> i think because it's closer. so he's the biggest threat because it was only 30 days. the others rose and fell pretty quickly. there was distance between that in iowa and new hampshire. newt's a threat because he's better on stage than others, he has a track record for being able to come up with zingers and an ability to connect with conservative voters. they just think he will do to himself what perry did to himself, what bachmann did to herself, have self-inflicted damage that makes romney look better by contrast over the long-term. >> all right. jim vandehei, thanks so much. and thanks again for the communism thing. >> no problem. back at ya. i'm here for you. >> that's something to put on your resume. >> he's humble, he doesn't have it on there. >> roll call reporter, washington post reporter,

brought down berlin wall. >> real heroes don't mention it. >> i'd move it up on the resume. >> would you? >> right after roll call. >> i'll change it. >> still ahead, senator john mccain makes a joke about long island. senator chuck schumer did not find it funny, but it was a hilarious exchange on the floor of the senate. we'll show you that. and up next, donny deutsch joins the conversation. dear lord help us. >> what is he doing? oh, my lord. >> seriously, what is he doing? >> i don't know. capital one's new cash rewards card gives you a 50% annual bonus! so you earn 50% more cash. according to research, everybody likes more cash. well, almost everybody... ♪ would you like 50% more cash?

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all right. let's do some quick sports now. we start in the nfl. buffalo bills wide receiver stevie johnson says he's done once and for all performing touchdown celebrations after his latest earned him a $10,000 fine and criticism from all corners of the league. the league punished johnson for mocking plaxico burress by pretending to shoot himself during last weekend's 28-24 loss. >> and he shot himself in the foot because he dropped an important pass later.

>> he danced in the end zone, did that idiotic thing and dropped a pass that would've given the bills a win. johnson wouldn't accept the fine. he did post a picture on twitter with an envelope from the nfl waiting in his locker. he says he's apologized to burress for the incident and is now focused on the bills -- >> he should apologize to his teammates. >> it's not the first pass he's dropped in his career, by the way. do we have the tyson thing? john tower? we do. mike tyson was on the show in brazil and did some singing. >> oh, great. ♪ ♪ ♪ but each day when she walked

through street ♪ ♪ she looked straight ahead not at me ♪ ♪ ♪ she just doesn't see ♪ no she just doesn't see me >> little known fact, that song, not his version of that song -- 1964, the grammy song of the year. >> that song? >> the year of the beatles, which tells you -- >> wow. >> all you need to know about the grammys. >> i did not know that. even that version you could make the case. >> he's lost some weight. >> the tattoo is finally -- >> he's gotten past that robin

gibbons interview. >> "the hangover." >> the hangover worked pretty well. >> it was good for him. >> he's coming back. you know, he's a good kid. good kid, good heart. not really. okay. donny's here too. [ baby coughing ]

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44 past the hour. the next day, you've just got to forget what happened. >> leave it behind. >> just leave it. just let it go. >> it'll come out tomorrow. >> it will. >> that's easy for me, i don't remember what happened. >> i'm choosing to forget. okay. at 44 past the hour -- >> sunrise in washington, d.c. today, beautiful. you don't act like you don't know him. willie, i think we have photographic evidence. >> do we have the picture? >> i don't deny it or hating

him, come on, it's pretty obvious. so gail collins wrote what she loves writing about more than anything in the world. >> the mitt romney -- >> mitt romney. >> all right. take a listen to this. romney hasn't done a sunday talk show since the hurt locker beat "avatar" for best picture. he's generally kept so far away from one on one interviews he might as well be wrapped in cellophane. never have we had a more uptight potential president. this is because he's a bundle of contradictory positions whose history he cannot justify without standing up and screaming, look, i'm running for office, i have to make things up. it's time to free mitt from his demons. i suppose we -- i propose we give him one week which to decide at which point in his life he was actually expressing his true opinion on any given topic and we will just clear the slate and go from there. and she points out being a little bit uptight, obviously gail has a certain viewpoint and perspective.

but there is an interview that i believe happened yesterday on fox with brett bear where mitt got a little defensive. >> really? >> it was his frustration with the line of questioning he was getting from bear. >> on fox? >> on fox. >> climate change, abortion, immigration, gay rights. how can voters trust what they hear from you today is what you will believe if you win the white house? >> well, brett, your list is just not accurate. so one, we're going to have to be better informed about my views on issues. this whole stream of thought that you began with, which is oh, well, you say anything to get elected. if that were the case, would i still be defending massachusetts health care? >> can you say on camera and other places that at times you thought it would be a model for the nation. >> you're wrong, brett. >> no -- >> no, the tape out there. he didn't read the tape. >> you think a mandate -- mandating people to buy insurance is the right tool?

>> brett, i don't know how many hundred times i've said this too. this is an unusual interview. all right. let's do it again. >> all right. >> wow, willie. >> the plot actually thickens a little bit. he was on with o'reilly last night and talked about what happened after the interview. i think we've got it here. listen. >> he said he thought it was overly aggressive. >> he said that to you? that it was overly aggressive? >> he did. and as we were walking in the walk and talk and after we finished he went to his holding room and then came back and said he didn't like the interview and thought it was uncalled for. >> wow. it was uncalled for? >> i think those are questions that anyone at any network whether it's msnbc or fox news should be asking the leading republican presidential candidate about his record. >> the best thing that mr. romney can do is go in hiding and let newt gingrich keep talking. it's that simple. this is -- he is a plain donut.

and although a plain donut is nothing great, when you bite into the jelly donut and the jelly doesn't taste good and it's michele bachmann and bite into the vanilla cream filled and it's -- it's not good, but it's not offensive at least in my taste buds. he was uncomfortable, you were uncomfortable watching him. imagine when the party starts. i'd keep him in hiding. >> the friendly audience for the most part fox is considered a friendlier network. and yet, brett was asking really basic questions that voters want to know. it's not a gotcha, like what did you do your college dissertation on? this is like, what -- you have said this in the past, you have said some things about health care and et cetera, et cetera.

and, again, mitt just like newt are trying to deny that the past exists. >> i think the real story is not the one that we see in all of this. but as the newspaper and financial times says today romney finds valuable allies on wall street. okay. so he's another wall street-funded candidate. but what's interesting is last night where was the president of the united states? he was in new york fund raising as usual, not in queens, not in bronx, not in harlem, but also with his wall street friends. we have a structural problem here which is all the candidates gravitate towards the money, and we have a broken system. romney's part of it, president obama's part of it, they're all part of it. we know gingrich is part of it. this is what's deeply broken. it's not the debates about who's saying what, but that they're all coming to wall street to get their funds. and that's what's broken in this country. >> this is where i disagree with you on campaign finance reform. i think the way the system is set up where you have to get --

you can get like $8,000 per couple, if you want to get enough money to run a presidential campaign under those limitations and forgetting the super packs, you've got to go -- i don't know what the expression is, you've got to go -- >> you've got to go to the bu bundlers where the -- >> you've got to go to the money, and it's on wall street, that's why i've personally believed, if you want to stop people from staying on the phone 70% of the time when they're campaigning instead of being campaigning and reading and getting better on the issues, you have unlimited contributions and there's complete transparency -- >> joe -- >> wall street doesn't have the death grip over this -- >> but what we really need, by the way, is a president that isn't out fund raising all the time, but is actually governing, and we need a political system that isn't always raising money. and that's really the essence of the problem. so if --

>> money drives the whole process. >> if somebody can write me $1 million check instead of me having to spend three weeks raising that $4,000 at a time. i know that -- >> but joe, some candidate's going to come along and he or she is going to win by saying i'm not taking any big money at all. that's what's really going to impress the american people. >> there you go. >> won't take a donation over $100. >> that's eventually how we're going to clean up the system. >> willie's news you can't use is next. ♪ i think i'm falling ♪ i think i'm falling ♪ i think i'm falling [ male announcer ] this is your moment. ♪ for you [ male announcer ] this is zales, the diamond store.

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oh, it's time. >> news you can't use. >> you always have great items. >> two united states senators going at it on the floor. >> which two? >> senators john mccain of arizona -- >> oh, john mccain. i don't know if you knew this or not, but everybody here at "morning joe" love and respect john mccain. he's a war hero, great man. >> also senior senator from new york chuck schumer, democrat there. >> they're debating detaining americans indefinitely, a serious issue on the floor, and john mccain made a crack, a light hearted crack about long island. >> is it true that justice

o'connor was specifically referring to a case of a person who was captured on long island? last i checked, long island was part, all be it at times regrettably, part of the united states of america. >> it's a joke. >> just a few feet away chuck schumer tweets this, john mccain, all of america saw how heroic long islanders were on 9/11. mccain says, come on, it was a joke. you want me to apologize, here's the apology you're going to get. >> i'm sorry that there's at least one of my colleagues that can't take a joke and so i apologize if i offended him and hope that some day he will have a sense of humor. i yield. >> there's your apology. so then, senator schumer -- >> oh, my gosh. >> senator schumer tweets again, new yorkers can take a joke, but if john mccain wants to mock parts of america --

>> no he didn't. >> the two wrongs don't make a right. >> i love long island. most of the women in my life have been from long island. >> come on. >> that has no bearing on the conversation. >> come on. >> you're ruining mccain's case. and by the way, by the way, you know, this book you're working on "dirty days: hampton nights" nobody wants to read that, okay. >> i was saving the title. >> i propose an apology to the greatest long islander of them all. gentleman who goes by the name of joseph butefuco. >> he's on tomorrow, right? >> coming up next senator claire mccaskill and pat toomey. mitt romney's business experience could be a valuable asset in the white house. keep it right here on "morning joe." we're america's natural gas

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what's in your wallet? this guy's amazing.

every time is an opportunity to provide new leadership for things that will be difficult to do. it's not a guaranteed photo op, he walks. you don't see republican governors doing that. real leadership is not what you see in the white house right now. like i said before, it's a sad day in our country's history to have a bystander in the oval

office, and that's what we have. >> all right. welcome back to "morning joe." jeffrey sachs and donny deutsch still with us. and joining us now from boston, professor at harvard university and columnist for "newsweek" magazine, that's a long title. >> he's got a lot going for him. >> niall ferguson also the author of "civilization" very good to have you on the show. >> great to have you here. we've got a lot to talk about. i want to talk about what chris christie said. also, let's go before we talk about chris christie and his attack on the president's lack of leadership and then, of course, yesterday we had the polls showing the president had historically low approval ratings for this stage of his presidency. let's talk about what happened yesterday that caused the markets to go up. jeffrey sachs, looks like there was coordination between six central banks and it may have made a difference in the

short-term for europe. but answer this question, how close are we to a catastrophe if the coordination doesn't continue? >> europe is right on the cliff. whether the euro zone survives and, you know, a number of countries are potentially being pushed into an open default of their government debt. and central bank of europe, the european central bank is kind of stood on the sidelines up until now. germany has said don't get involved in this. and the markets are, you know, of course, panicking. so yesterday was good news for a change because the european central bank joined the fed and some other central banks in this action. but we're right on the edge of what would be an absolutely calamitous, calamitous event if the eurozone goes down. >> and niall -- >> and it would spill over to us, the whole world. >> this is not a small thing. >> niall ferguson, financial times says central banks' move

lifts markets. is this a short-term lift or a long-term lift? and how much does it impact us here in america if things go badly? >> well, i agree with jeff sachs on this occasion that it's got huge implications. and it certainly is far too early to say this crisis is somehow over. what we're seeing is the first moves in the right direction by the european central bank, which really has to act on a very large scale and with the support of other central banks to avoid a complete meltdown of the euro zone. i've been saying for some time this had to happen. the major obstacle has been, in fact, german political resistance to what they see as effectively the breach of rules of what the ecb can do, european central bank can do. so the other piece which still has to come into position here is a change of policy in germany. and let the germans make quite the dramatic move in the direction of -- let's call it fiscal federalism creating a

united states of euro, which is what this is about. then the central bank action alone won't sacrifice. i think we're not even half way to solving this problem, a lot more still has to happen. >> are you suggesting the germans who seem to be carrying the rest of europe on their back are not doing enough? >> they're not. and indeed, the german chancellor angela merkel has boxed herself in in all kinds of ways in recent months. ultimately the reason the situation in europe has deteriorated so much is that they've done far too little as each stage of the crisis and the principle break has been the german government. she has consistently ruled out obvious solutions, the most straightforward of which was the ecb should step in on a larger scale as the way the fed did in 2008 and 2009. the reason we don't have a great depression right now is primarily the action that ben bernanke took to prevent dominos from cascading down.

the ecb has not acted on that scale yet. and the reason it hasn't expanded the balance sheet as much as the fed did, essentially the germans are very resistant to anything they think will bring back the specter of inflation. >> niall, shouldn't the germans be a bit skeptical right now? wrote about a joke going around in europe right now. an italian, spaniard, and a greek go into a bar, they drink all night, and walk out the next morning, who pays the bill? the answer, of course, the german. >> the german barmaid. the german barmaid. >> the german does, and the greeks even now are resisting tax reform. even now they're resisting responsible spending levels. why do the german taxpayers who have been doing it right, why do they carry the load for people who continue to be reckless? >> it's really simple. 12 years ago, when this thing was created, i argued that you

can't have a monetary union without some kind of fiscal mechanism to transfer resources from the productive economy to the less productive economy. and it's proved to be true. you can't just unite the currencies and leave the countries to pursue their own fiscal policies. and that's, i think, the fundamental problem. the germans and i think this is true of most of the european leaders back in 1999 when the euro was created thought we can have our cake and eat it. we can have a single currency which will be less small -- but we don't need to worry about fiscal discipline. with something called the stability and growth pack that everybody flouted, which was supposed to limit the deficits and the debt. so the problems are pretty deep rooted. if you want to have a monetary union like this, you need to accept that it implies some kind of federal fiscal structure. and being in denial about that for the better part of the decade is the reason that the europeans got into this difficulty. if that means that the germans

have to transfer resources to poorer countries and less productive countries in the periphery, i'm afraid that was always implicit in the project. >> yeah, naturally your story is a good one, but it wasn't exactly like that. it was the deutsche bank invited the spaniards, portuguese and irish to go out for a drink and it was for a housing boom in those countries. so this actually didn't start with the governments. it started like it did in the united states with german banks lending a tremendous amount irresponsibly to these other countries. this is where the prices started in unregulated financial markets. and the european central bank, niall and i completely agree has stood on the sidelines as this crisis has deepened. and it has brought the situation to a near catastrophe. >> okay. >> you know what's interesting? i think we're ten days away or two weeks because the next step

from deciding the next president of the united states. very simply, what also happened yesterday with that 490 spike, there were a lot of good little u.s. economic numbers that came out yesterday in terms of unemployment, in terms of housing. basically two weeks from now, the central banks acting like a central bank. and in the combination of the glimmers of hope, the stock market and economy are going to start to take off. if that happens, obama is a shoo-in. if by some chance, there's armageddon in two weeks from now in europe and the central bank does not act like a central bank, we are in for armageddon. and then he loses. so i actually think the things you're talking about all morning are going to be decided in the next ten days. >> the markets surged yesterday and obviously the results of what the fed and the central bank did. the dow led 490 points capping a 7% gain in the last seven days. the concerns the gains will be

short lived. over the past 18 months, we've had several surges not this big that have withered away. a report in this morning's "wall street journal" said the fed was pushed into action by executives on wall street over concerns that europe's problems will spread to banks in the u.s. which brings us back to the underlying problems here at home where the backdrop to that is that washington still doesn't work. congress' approval rating is at an all-time low, the president's approval rating is an all-time low. i want to talk about what chris christie said at the top of the show. we bumped in with a really harsh criticism of this president's leadership from a potential candidate who backed out because he said he wasn't ready. at the same time he's always looked at as the republican's last hope. >> well, chris christie is saying what a lot of people in washington are saying, and that is that the president has disappeared. when it comes to a debt crisis,

when it comes to the super committees, the president has disappeared. he tried to work out a deal on raising the debt ceiling with john boehner, that was a bust. and he's been missing in action since that time. he decided to start his political campaign, go on the road, start talking about jobs. and his feeling was, mika, at the time, okay, i've tried to work with these republicans, i can't work with them, i'm just going to campaign to beat them. and so that's what's happened. i personally think while it's a good political move, i personally think at this time it's extraordinarily reckless, extraordinarily dangerous. this country is teetering on the brink of economic collapse, credit is tight, main street is hurting, and the president has basically thrown in the chips, jeffrey sachs. and has been completely disconnected. even if he would come out and hold a press conference and it would only take 60 seconds and

say i know we have a debt crisis in europe, in america, i know right now that capitol hill is fighting to figure out the best way to balance things moving forward to make the cuts that need to be cut, this is my recommendation. just go back to the presidential commission, enact simpson/bowles, and we'll move forward from there. >> i think it's right to say that both sides are completely reckless. >> reckless. >> both sides. >> both sides. >> totally irresponsible. and what is remarkable is the moment that we failed to agree on any deficit reduction plan, the next day the president's proposal is for tax cuts again. and then yesterday he's out campaigning in pure populism. i want these tax cuts. everyone's talking about tax cuts again. this country is so unserious in actually addressing the real situation of the budget and where we need spending and how we need to close budget gaps.

but it's completely both sides. everybody is partisan thinking it's the other side, neither side -- >> it's ridiculous. and you know, jeffrey, republicans will get angry at me for stating facts about candidates and things they have said. >> absolutely. >> democrats will absolutely savage me for stating this truth. it's a simple basic truth, that the president set up his own commission. i'm going back to your tax cut position, where they fought like hell over months, simpson and bowles, to figure out how to save $4 trillion over a decade, the president threw them under the bus, he lost the election -- midterm election, and the next week, the next week, he passed bush tax cuts and blew another $1 trillion hole. another $1 trillion hole in the national debt. and now the president sees a debt crisis going on across the world. and what's he doing? he's talking about tax cuts

again. when i hear these democrats -- i think obama supporters blindly saying bush tax cuts, we need to raise taxes, they never look at their -- >> welm, it's both sides. >> it's both sides. >> and equal on both sides, and a president truly shouldn't need that kind of commission. the president should put forward a plan. and that's what we've been talking about for years is not in my view partisan issues, this is about how we can have responsibility. >> the system has collapsed. niall ferguson, it seems that politicians in washington are fiddling while rome is burning. >> it's certainly very striking, isn't it? what happened in europe could ultimately end up happening here. and it was only a few months ago people assumed there wouldn't be a problem in italy. and the way the bond market works is strange. it can put up with irresponsible fiscal policies for a long time and then it wakes up and notices

the arithmetic doesn't stack up and then you find yourself on the wrong end of rising rates. start having to enact austerity measures and down you go. that's a big problem we have, i think, which goes back to where we began. how will this economy do in the election year? which is while they'll fiddle in washington, they put themselves in a position where they're going to have to be crude spending cuts, not the carefully designed ones that simpson/bowles came up with. an automatic across the board cut which will have negative economic consequences. we're doing this in the worst possible way. we're going down this road of automatic sequestration. and i think that's going to be a big head wind next year going into this election. and the one reason that things started to look up economically in the last few weeks was another collapse in the savings rate. people are going out and spending money that they're not earning, the deleveraging story is temporarily off. that's not sustainable.

it's suddenly going to get chilly again on main street. all of which i think adds up to a perfect storm for obama. >> and that's -- that's again what jeffrey said back right after the president was elected about washington and this president with the stimulus package. building, donny, yet another bubble that's going to pop. it's happening -- it's happened again. and i'm just curious, you've been a steadfast barack obama supporter since 2008, 2007, 2008, i'm wondering whether you believe as a ceo as a successful businessman as somebody who have led people, put a vision out that people follow, do you believe this president is showing the type of leadership he needs in this crisis? >> i think the president -- it's interesting, you and mika got into a squabble that he doesn't like politics. >> that wasn't a squabble. we set it up -- we've set it up beforehand and said let's have a little fun back and forth. >> okay.

>> unfortunately it was all planned out. >> what the president is doing is being very politically asuit. forget about leadership. number one, he's got the john boehner of the world, saying our job is to beat the president. saying 66% of americans care about economy and jobs, 6% care about the deficit. putting those pieces of math together saying i want to keep my job, the justification of the actions is i can't be powerful unless i'm in power. is he being a leader? his leadership style has been laissez-faire, he's being politically astute. >> he's doing what politicians in washington have done for years now, and that is kick the can further down the road while the united states of america gets deeper in debt. we're over $15 trillion in debt right now. four years ago after he got elected in february of -- actually three years, january of 2009 he said we can no longer kick the can down the road on social security and medicare.

he's kicked it down the road three more years. and niall, just as you said, and americans need to understand this. republican ideologues and democratic ideologues need to understand something that you underlined just a minute ago, niall. if we don't make rational, sensible cuts right now in -- >> tax increases. >> and reasonable revenue -- >> no, tax increases on rich people. that's what's been missing from the discussion. >> but -- >> no, that's really what's been missing. >> no, no, no -- that's not -- you know what? come on, jeffrey. >> it has been. >> you sound just like an ideologue here. >> no, no -- >> when you suggest all we have to do is raise taxes. >> i said it's been missing from the beginning of the discussion. >> it's been missing. >> that's all i'm saying. you can't just talk about taxes. >> taxes, taxes, taxes --

>> we can't just talk about spending. >> i'm not talking about spending. >> i was just adding a phrase to your discussion. >> but at the same time, you've got to look back over the past five years. and look at the explosion in spending. no tax increases would have been able to keep up with that explosion in spending. >> and you have to look at the collapse of tax collections in the last years also and the number of gimmicks and wall street getting off with everything and the corporate loopholes. you have to look at the fact that we're collecting less revenue as a shared national income than we have in modern history. you have to look at that side. >> you at least have to start with that. >> you don't have to start with that, you have to start with spending cuts and then you have to look at -- >> just out of curiosity, why do you have to start with spending cuts, both from a fairness and economic reality. >> because right now we're not talking about fairness, we're talking about saving america.

back just ten years ago, our national debt was $5 trillion, by the time george bush left office the it was $11 trillion. three years later, it is $15 trillion, by the time barack obama leaves office, it will be over $20 trillion. what i am saying and niall, i'll throw it to you, what i'm saying is you can't find enough taxes, the taxes to pay off the massive spending debt that government spending is accumulating. i'm not saying don't raise taxes in a sensible way, i'm saying right now, the spending explosion is actually our number one priority. we've got to slow it down or we're doomed. >> joe, if you look at the congressional budget office numbers, if we carry on at the present rate, by the middle of the century, all federal tax revenues will be absorbed by paying the interest on the federal debt. it's a completely unsustainable policy.

and the principal driver on this is undoubted the unfunded liabilities of medicare and to a lesser extent social security. it is a problem on the expenditure side that has to be addressed. and i think reforming health care successfully was what this administration most egregiously failed to do. it doesn't solve the fiscal problem at all. now on the tax side i think here is where jeffrey sachs and i disagree. he's doing his occupy wall street rifts there. my argument would be a very different one. instead of focusing on trying to raise tax rates on higher earners, let's reform the tax system, which is a horrible mess, whether you look at corporate tax or income tax, as badly designed of a system as you'll find in the world. simplification and broadening of the tax base elimination of loopholes can get us higher revenue without higher rates. and that's a growth strategy. >> remember, jeff, what we most need to get out of this debt crisis is higher growth, and we're not going to get that from higher tax rates. that simple.

>> the rich have walked away with the prize for 30 years and they have gotten all the tax breaks, all the loopholes, all the tax rate cuts, and so it's time for them to start paying. it's very simple. >> i just don't understand why what you're saying and what you're saying can't go hand in hand. >> it can. it can. and it does. and it will. >> that's exactly right. >> all we're talking about here, mika, i think, and dr. sachs, i think you'll agree with me, maybe it's a difference in emphasis. i am closer to niall in that i want to close the loopholes and make sure that the billionaires -- >> i want to close the loopholes too. >> right. but for me, there's no doubt it's medicare, it's medicaid, it's defense spending. it's all of these -- >> we had over the past decade, massive financial collapse. i think you can give this president a break for spending a little, for trying to save jobs -- >> if he spent a little -- >> trying to inject some sort of

movement into the economy immediately while we then work on the long-term problems which are everything that you talk about, as well. but you can't act like this president has destroyed this country. >> the problem is -- >> this has been a slow path -- >> this has been going on for a long time, but we're not -- >> both sides of the aisle. >> we're not solving the problem. >> the president has not caused this problem. >> no. >> the president has made this problem worse. >> well, that is one argument. the other is that -- >> the problem -- the president made this problem worse and jeffrey sachs called it in realtime in february of 2009 by putting together a stimulus package together that jeffrey sachs was doomed from the start we all knew was doomed from the start and then doubled down again, ignored his commission and another $1 trillion stimulus plan by extending bush tax cuts and unemployment benefits that were unpaid for. >> without that and without bailing out the auto industry, where would we be? am i missing something?

>> yeah, you're missing a lot. he took a bad situation and made it worse. >> i think he kept us from falling over a cliff. >> we'll look for your latest column in "newsweek." >> that clip is coming up now because of his policies and george bush's policies. >> rick stengel is straight ahead. [ woman ] my boyfriend and i were going on vacation, so i used my citi thank you card to pick up some accessories. a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? we talked about getting a diamond. but with all the thank you points i've been earning... ♪ ...i flew us to the rock i really had in mind. ♪ [ male announcer ] the citi thank you card. earn points you can use for travel on any airline, with no blackout dates. but proven technologies allow natural gas producers

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hey, with us now, we've got the managing editor of "time" magazine here to reveal the latest issue of "time" magazine. and this is a question shaping the republican race and has for the past year. >> yes. our cover is of mitt romney and the rhetorical question is "why don't they like me?" which is certainly the question that mitt has been asking himself and his campaign and maybe the republican voters, the gop, and the primary voters.

and it's a great story by joe klein who spent weeks out on the road with mitt. and, you know, came to the conclusion that even though he is a better candidate now than he was in 2008, and a more sophisticated candidate and a more appealing candidate, he's still not catching on with republican voters. and what we've seen in the last week or ten days with the succession of people who have been competing with him have come up and come down and now we have the rise of newt gingrich, and that presents real problem for him. in fact, mark haleprin in his little column in the issue talks about how mitt -- i mean how newt is actually mitt's greatest threat, and may -- if he continues being a good candidate between now and iowa could absolutely capsize romney's campaign. >> you have a full screen -- you have a chart that may answer the question on why voters, republican voters have problems with mitt romney. and it's a chart about where he has stood through the years.

guys, do we have this full screen? okay, so in 1994, after the u.s. senate lost to ted kennedy, mitt romney supported cap and trade, and he supported gun control. in 2005, as massachusetts governor, he increases his support for cap and trade, and supports the banning of guns. then in 2008, he refuses to support cap and trade when he's running for president. and on gun control, after banning guns in massachusetts, he joins the nra, and then in 2011, he is actually against cap and trade, and he supports -- >> well, it all goes -- and if you see the chart in the magazine. >> by the way, he was asked about -- he was asked about this yesterday on fox and got very testy. >> show the chart. >> well, you see it's going in one direction. he's going from more moderate to more conservative. and you know, it's funny, i write in my editor's letter

about the debate that joe klein and i always have. he says politicians speak from the heart about what they really believe. and i would say, well, i'm not so sure they really believe anything in their heart. and in fact, we're in a representative democracy, and why shouldn't they conform to what the voters want? he was running for governor of massachusetts, one of the most liberal states in the union. i mean, he had to actually conform to what voters want. i don't think that's so terrible. obviously republican primary voters want to see something called which we refer to as authenticity. do you believe these things we so devoutly believe? well, maybe he doesn't, but that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be a good president. >> if you look at the guy who is rising right now, newt gingrich, there's no bigger flip-flopper than him. and i think his response to flip-flopping is the smartest thing he's ever said. look, i change as other people as i grow. he has no passion -- there's no blood in there. the very thing you critique

barack obama about is there's a little lack of passion of testostero testosterone, it's the same thing but different kind of clothing. is that a guy you want to have lunch with? >> you bring up testosterone, we do not. >> if a politician would only say a foolish consistency is -- he would be elected president. basically, you can change your mind when circumstances change. and by the way, what -- that's what we want in a leader. we don't want a leader who is sew ideological that no matter what happens out in the world, i'm not going to change my mind. >> is this a guy you want to sit down and have a cup of coffee or a beer with? at the end of the day, voters don't vote on the issue, they vote on the human being, and people don't take to him. it's that simple. >> mika? >> my god -- >> what's your thought about this? >> no, i'm going to move on and ask you about bono. >> yeah, i've known bono for a

long time, but mike eliot works with us, runs the one organization, and bono came by, he's in america this week on the 30th anniversary of the discovery of the aids virus and has an event. tonight in washington with president obama where he basically says that obama will commit to funding for another two years and increase the funding from 4 million people being helped to 6 million people being helped. and bono says i'm here to thank america for american leadership, for saving 5 million lives and talks a great deal about -- and gives a great deal of credit to george bush who stuck with this policy, who started it, who announced it in the state of the union and basically has been transformational in africa when it comes to this disease. >> people like bono and others working in africa talking about how george w. bush did more for africa than the other american presidents. >> absolutely than any other american president. and he talks about it with this

interesting combination of strange bedfellows including the evangelical christians who supported the efforts, the military because they saw aids as a security threat. and bono talks about how visionary it is because africa will have 2 billion people and the largest continent by population. and people talk about it -- the american brand around the world, the american brand in africa is up here. you know 8 out of the 10 african countries look at america as the great beacon of hope in the world. >> well, like everything else. worked on these issues with bono, but there's a dark side to this also, which is that the global fund to fight aids, tb, and malaria has been starved for funds because the u.s. is not following through and other countries are not following through. so while we're celebrating what happened over the last ten

years, people should know that this crucial organization suspended all new funding until 2014. >> wait, when did this start? >> last week they did that. >> and this is -- this is a disaster actually. >> so the politicians will have their nice day today, but there's a lurking disaster that if it doesn't get corrected, it's going to undo a lot of the progress. and it's sad to say because today is world aids day and the last ten years has been a lot of progress, but that lot of progress is at risk right now because the u.s. is not coming through and other countries are not coming through. nobody really notices, and so on, but the real point is that many countries around the world were trying to increase their fight against aids, tb, and malaria and we're suddenly told last week, no new money until 2014. >> we've got to go, but again, really quickly, though, barack obama has said he's going to

follow through on the bush numbers? >> yeah, i think the announcement is tonight. and actually, bono does talk about the funding from the global fund, and part of the problem is the economic problems in europe. britain and france have difficulty contributing like they did before. but i'm kind of hopeful about it. >> thank you. >> thank you. up next, the vice president calls it a national responsibility. joe biden's impassioned words about putting the nation's returning veterans to work. more "morning joe" in just a moment. >> okay.

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welcome back to morning joe. 39 past the hour. vice president joe biden is talking jobs while on a trip to iraq. in an interview with nbc, biden praised the skills of america's military members saying there's a national responsibility to help them find work once they come home. >> this is the most talented generation of warriors in the history of the united states of america. every american business out there.

if you want somebody who knows how to handle pressure, who knows how to handle billions of dollars worth of equipment, who knows how to operate under fire, hire a veteran. we have an obligation. they fought over here, they've gone through these sands and deserts in war, they shouldn't have to come home and fight for a job. >> that is so true. and it's not about helping them. this is not about a hand out. it's a national disgrace that we don't recognize the value of our veterans. >> why don't we -- why is it a law that corporations have to have a certain percentage of veterans? why don't we -- >> i don't get that they don't see the value. >> beyond they should do it for their business, but why can't we make them do it? these people, these kids go out and protect us and put their lives on the line. there should be some guarantee into the world of capitalism.

>> don't disagree with that. coming up, senators claire mccaskill and pat toomey will join the conversation. keep it here on "morning joe." nyquil (st uffy ): hey, tylenol. you know we're kinda like twins. tylenol: we are? nyquil (stuffy): yeah, we both relieve coughs, sneezing, aches, fevers. tylenol: and i relieve nasal congestion. nyquil (stuffy): overachiever. anncr vo: tylenol cold multi-symptom nighttime relieves nasal congestion... nyquil cold & flu doesn't.

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are invisibly at work, protecting people's lives... [ soldier ] move out! [ male announcer ] ...without their even knowing it. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. welcome back, 44 past the hour, joining us now from washington, democratic senator from missouri, senator claire mccaskill, and republican senator from pennsylvania, pat toomey. they are co-sponsoring a new bipartisan bill to ban earmarks. it's good to have you both. >> good morning. >> claire, i guess this is a sign that some of you can agree on something. >> yeah, we actually, mika, there are a number of republicans and democrats that are working at stuff every day. and i know it's kind of

fashionable right now to say forget about washington, they're all idiots, they all can't do anything, but there really are a bunch of us trying every single day to try to do things. this is a great example of something we feel strongly about we think we can get good bipartisan support for. >> i want to hear about the bill, but on that note, though, can you understand how people may feel a little bit put off by washington, by congress, and the leadership in washington? because it seems when something comes to the forefront, nothing gets done. and, of course, i point to the super committee and other failures there. is there a way that you guys can get around that? and can you understand that there is a little bit of a distrust at this point? >> mika, can i understand it? i feel it myself. i'm extremely frustrated. this is my first year in the senate. almost finished now and i'm enormously frustrated. we didn't do a budget, haven't done the normal appropriation bills, there's a number of things we ought to be doing that

we're not. here's something that senator mccaskill and i share that common deal and we're going to work together and i'm cautiously optimistic about what to accomplish here. >> one of the things, though, that has caused a division between these two, you can see it in the expressions and i hate it, but pat toomey looks pretty heavy next to claire mccaskill, like he's bloated, it's like he's been eating too many philly cheesesteaks. >> i love you, joe. >> i know you do. >> music to my ears. >> he's looking a little fat and sweaty. >> i'll hit the gym, okay. >> you need to do it. okay. so claire, it's not lost on me that you two sitting next to each other are from two swing states. missouri and pennsylvania where the overwhelming majority of people in those states expect their leaders to use common sense.

and get along. it ain't new york and alabama. it's not red and blue. you all are from purple states. how do you go back home to people in missouri and say we can't figure out a way to cut a couple of dollars to balance our budget? >> the amplification in our system occurs at the two ends. and states like missouri and pennsylvania produce moderates to the united states senate because they're moderate states. they're not bright blue and not bright red. and i hope that especially independent voters take a hard look at how we find solutions for years this country has celebrated around the table of compromise. it has been compromise that has been what has made our system of government work. and if we hollow out the middle, if we get everybody on one end or the other in washington, we're not going to get those compromises. and all we're going to have is

dysfunctioning gridlock. our whole compromise is part -- >> it's not even really about ideology because pat toomey's a very conservative guy. you're progressive in some areas. missouri sends really conservative people to the senate. pennsylvania sent rick santorum, as well. and yet, it's a willingness to look past ideology and do what's best for the country. >> and find the things we agree on. and pat toomey and i agree that earmarks while it current look like it's a lot of money, it's the culture. it's what has grown up over time in washington that your success has everything to do with what kind of project you can get funded as opposed to how do we shrink the size of the federal government? >> and the other thing i would say, joe, most voters are really pretty smart. and they understand it's not realistic to think they're going to agree with their senator and their congressman 100% of the time. they know i'm a conservative guy. some people really like that, some not so much.

but i think they respect something who is honest and straightforward, does what they say they're going to do. and in this environment, i think it's an overwhelming majority of pennsylvanians who think we need a conservative approach to our budget. >> before you give us the details of the bill, which seems fantastic, charlie crist didn't get reelected because he was seen in a picture hugging barack obama. i love when i see the two of you l together. as an american, it makes me feel good. when you go back to your friends on one side of the aisle, are you in any way chagrinned because you're here with senator mccaskill? is that seen as -- to the base as, oh, my goodness, what are you doing sitting next to her? what seems right to me -- >> well, first of all, you're not going to hug each other. >> but it's the same -- i feel the hug. i feel the hugs going on. >> we're capable of a hug. we're capable. >> i think chances are pretty good i'll still be invited to lunch today with miss republican colleagues. that's really wildly overstated, the sense thattogether.

it's really silly. and as you know, nothing gets done in the senate unless there's bipartisan support for it. so every single day, democrats and republicans are trying to find ways to work together. and surprisingly often, they find some progress. >> so on the big issue, though, on the debt, we've gotten to a point, sadly, that even if we could magically find $4 trillion in spending cuts, and revenue enhancements, tax increases, however you want to put it, you know, over ten years, ten years from now, we would still be in trouble. so how do we move forward, guys? senator mccaskill, i'll start with you. how do we get this country moving forward on debt reduction so we don't end up like greece? >> well, we're headed the right direction and as our economy takes -- it's going to take time for it to get the kind of recovery we all want. because this is a credit bubble retraction, and that just takes a while. there's things we can do to get

out of the way and help the private sector. and over time, the best thing we can do for our deficit and our debt is to have more productivity in this country. and the $4 trillion, joe, if we were to get that done, that would have a huge impact on the trajectory of the debt. we wouldn't have -- completely wipe it out in ten years, but we would be in a place that our country is back on very firm, fiscal fitting. >> i've got a slightly different take. i do think that growth is an absolutely vital component of this. but i think we've got to acknowledge that the design, the fundamental design of the big entitlement programs is unsustainable. the architecture doesn't work and it is not going to work. that is what every bipartisan commission has acknowledged. that is what anybody who has looked honestly at medicare and medicaid and social security has concluded. so we need to have the courage to change that architecture in a way that makes sense, a way that still serves the people who need those programs. but until we address the big entitlemen

entitlements, we're not going to solve our long-term deficit and debt problem. >> okay, toomey, hit the gym. >> i'll do it. >> you've got an example -- >> i know. >> she lashed out at me for my lifestyle. >> of course i like both -- >> those are two likeable people. >> you know what's fascinating, you like both of those people, but i can guarantee, neither one like you. >> that's a given. >> senator mccaskill, senator pat toomey. >> thank you so much. >> an earmark -- >> i love donny. you can say whatever you like. it's like donny is one of those purging clowns and goes right back up. >> we'll be right back. >> you have got a strong -- all energy development comes with some risk,

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♪ hey, let's take a look at tomorrow's show. we're going to have senator sherry brown with us. also, thomas friedman. can't wait to talk to him about the debt crisis and what's going on. and what's our best way out? i also want to dig in to why we can't get visas for the best and the brightest that come to america's schools and then go back home and create companies that create jobs. "morning joe" will be back in a minute.

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the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us onset, dr. jeffrey sacks and jim cramer. the big headline this morning, some optimism this morning on wall street coming off the dow's seventh largest gain of all-time. markets surged yesterday, wiping out last week's slump. the dow left 490 points, capping a 7% gain over the last three days. wednesday's session was the best showing in more than two years. investors are boosted by a joint effort between the federal reserve and other central banks to offer emergency loans to lower the cost of borrowing. >> okay, okay, okay. >> what? >> come on. jeffrey sachs. >> what? >> sound and fury, zigging signifying nothing. we have a huge spike in the stock market while the economy continues to stagger on. one more example of a complete disconnect between wall street and main street. >> basically, we've got a very, very serious crisis. europe is falling apart.

the united states can't agree on doing anything. and the only institutions that can act at all right now are the central banks. and six of them acted to pump in more liquidity yesterday. but also very interestingly, china's central bank did, as well. and what's really amazing is how china moves the world. china is in bad shape, too, for the first time they're seeing their manufacturing is stuck. so the world economy is in bad situation. this wasn't a rally because of good news. this was a rally because money was pumped into the economy. >> jim claim e, a huge day, though, for wall street. >> i agree with everything you said. and this is a recognition of how bad things really are. central bankers all act coordinatedly only when they're convinced when things are about to fall apart. i want to offer another opinion too about the united states. many people thought we were doing poorly. but we had an adp report, big payroll company, showing that more than twice as many people as we thought had been hired

last month. unemployment numbers tomorrow. we have really terrific numbers coming from autos, from retrail. so i he would say we're doing better than we thought. europe is doing far worse than we thought. and is they do cancel each other out. >> but looking at the surge that we saw in the past 24 hours, over the last 18 months, there have been several of them and they have withered away. what are the chances this won't as well? >> i think this will wither away. i felt and told people yesterday on "mad money," they should just stay the course, don't worry. we're going to be able to see our through it, the united states. this is their 2008. this is a terrible time for them. i think that we got that coordinated action, because i believe that we were going to have a major bank failure in the next ten days. and by the way, their banks over there versus their gross domestic product are gigantic. it's a relative thing, how huge they are, it's shocking to people. i don't want to mention any particular bank's names, because even on this show, it's very tentative and sensitive over there. but their banks have so interrelated with our banks, that even though it seems completely ridiculous some large

french bank could possibly hurt us, they would hurt our banks very badly. >> cramer, should the casual american who doesn't follow wall street closely even pay attention to these peaks and valleys, because to somebody who is not in your world looking at it every day, it looks like, well, great, that went up today, it's up 500 points, it will be down tomorrow, i still don't have a job, my salary hasn't moved at all. should we even watch these th s numbers. >> you know, this is going to hurt my own show. no. i'll tell you why. because the average american -- >> we'll still watch you. >> the average american is hostage to the u.s. economy. >> right. >> and as much as i think that if you own citigroup stock, you're not going to do well during this period. if you own classic american companies that don't do a lot of business overseas, they're going to go down very big on a day that a bank fails and then they'll bounce back. and again, our economy is doing better than we thought. it's just that doing better than we thought doesn't put money, bread -- doesn't put money in your pocket, doesn't put bread

on the table. >> you've still got to watch "mad money," though. >> come on. >> sometimes he talks about his ends and the fire -- >> the ins -- we had the thanksgiving dinner at the inn, all 17 patrons and the health and is safety and fire. i decided to take it up to code. >> have you really? >> code is -- i can deal with code. >> okay. so let's talk about what else is going on. >> all right. we'll get to nuewt gingrich, hi poll numbers on the rise and trying to convince republican voters he is the candidate to beat. he has sort of anointed himself, really. the former house speaker -- >> wait, when you said he anointed himself, are you talking about when he took credit for winning the cold war? or when he said this race is now all about me? >> i think it's -- well, why don't we play it and then we can decide. i think it's a mixture of the two. shear arrogance. naked arrogance.

>> he's a celebrity, according to him, he won the cold war and this race is all about me. >> and he gets paid tons of money for his historical knowledge. the former house speaker is saying he will surpass mitt romney because of his record of consistent, conservative accomplishments. >> i'm clearly the more conservative candidate, by any rational standard. i had a 90% american conservative union standing for 20 years. i helped ronald reagan and jack kemp develop supply side economics. i helped lead the effort to help defeat communism in the congress. people are saying, you know, i think we need newt gingrich because we need somebody who can debate obama, somebody who has done it before, somebody with substantial, big ideas. and so i think whereas i would have thought originally it was going to be mitt and not mitt, i think it's going -- it may turn out to be newt and not newt. and that's a very different formula than frankly -- i'm

redesigning our campaign strategy because we're 60 days ahead of where i thought i would be. >> i decided today i was going to come on and be kind of mellow. >> no, please don't. >> no, about newt. but he just said that he helped lead the defeat of communism. which i just -- dear god above! please show this man's mouth some mercy. please give him some restraint in these troubled times. he -- >> when he first used the term evil empire, what did you think? >> yeah. you know, about the same thing that i thought when he went to the berlin wall and said mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. >> that was strong. >> that was a great moment. when he decided to deploy the persian to the cruise missiles in western europe and all -- and when he married in answery. nancy. i think when newt married nancy, i think that's when we figured out that he was not going to be a celebrity. but instead, he would be president of the united states.

and he talked to little ronnie jr., gingrich jr. and he will tell you, too, his father, a colorful man who won the cold war, was distant. not mean, just a little distant. they didn't relate really well. but my god, you look out at when newt -- seriously, willie. >> are you going to defend newt on this one? >> no, i'm not. we're talking movies here. everybody is all-american. >> oh, mercy. >> when newt told rodney go out and win one -- >> everybody is all-american. >> i have newt in my fanlt fantasy team. took him over aaron rodgers. >> pope john paul might have something to say about that, too. >> yeah, and is margaret thatcher. come on, jeffrey sachs. he's out of his mind. >> i was in the polish parliament the day that communism ended in poland and -- >> were they all shouting

"newt!" ? >> and i was in the kremlin when the generals had just endeded the soviet union. and newt's name didn't come up. >> wait a minute, didn't he lead the solidarity movement? i can't remember? >> mika, you know, he just wasn't -- >> he was -- >> behind the scenes. >> seriously, he's always had this problem. >> that day -- >> in the shipyard. it's amazing. >> newt is such a deep backgrounder. >> you know, we joke about it, but this has always been a serious, serious personal problem with newt gingrich. susan mullan ory talked about how disconnected from reality he was. and rich gaylynn yesterday -- anybody who has ever worked with him knows, he will whip himself into a fury and start tearing

up, saying don't you realize, western civilization rests on my shoulder, just like churchill, just like fighting the nazis. he has always been that way. it is frightful. it is -- it is a frightening thing. and that has nothing to do with ideology, even. he's not right on ideology, because he's too all over the place. he is politically unmoored. but you listen to him say something like that, that he helped defeat communism, such an insult to ronald reagan, such an insult to george h.w. bush. such an insult to -- >> mikkel gorbachev. such an insult to pope john paul ii who was one of the key players in that entire process. >> the big brzezinski. >> yeah, there were a lot of cold warriers that worked with ronald reagan to win the cold war. newt gingrich was a back pincher. >> 26, 48 hours after saying i

didn't need the money to lobby because i may so much money. shades of lobbying at the very least. forget the lie. to be so disconnected from the -- very people that you're appealing to. >> i'm afraid he believes it. and that's the most frightening. let's move on. let's stop talking about newt. let's let somebody else talk about newt. >> ron paul is talking. >> let's see ron paul. i haven't seen this yet. >> i'll show it to you. it's the latest attack on newt gingrich coming from texas congressman ron paul. paul is taking aim at what he says is gingrich's changing record and ties to washington insiders. in a scathing web video, the paul campaign labels gingrich a, quote, serial hypocrite. >> beyond the words, there's a real question of policy and a real question of values and a real question of seriousness. the real question of policy. >> we don't always see eye-to-eye, do we, newt? >> no, but we do agree, our

country must take action to address climate change. >> newt gingrich has been on both sides of a long list of issues. sometimes in the same week. >> i don't think right wing social engineering is anymore desirable than left wing -- >> who needs left? >> let's look at the politicians who created the environment, the politicians who profited from the environment. politicians who profited from the environment. >> newt gingrich on the defense for taking 1.5 million bucks. >> newt gingrich got paid $1.6 million. >> $1.6 million, some of it just before the housing market collapsed. >> everything that gingrich railed against when he was in the house, he went the other way when he got paid to go the other way. >> now, that's a pretty damning attack, when you put everything next to each other. >> it's his words. >> his own words, the most effective ad, always. let's put some perspective on this. it wasn't long ago everyone was laughing at newt gingrich, going on the greek cruise, his entire

campaign staff abandoned him. here he is drawing attention not just of ron paul, but mitt romney. romney started going after explicitly newt gingrich, and we're learning from politico this morning that the romney campaign is preparing an attack, full-fledgeded attack, on newt gingrich with ads and everything else, calling him a washington insider and a flip-flopper. the romney campaign is now taking newt gingrich very seriously. >> i think newt gingrich is the first serious challenge. >> yeah. >> that they've had. you look at the numbers. and, again, this happens very quickly. so we have to put a caveat on this. you know, rick perry was in first place by a good bet. herman cain was in first place. then they did well all across the southeast. this week, though, if you're mitt romney, and we're getting closer closer, you know, newt is way ahead in south carolina. he's way ahead in florida. he's way ahead in other states. if newt wins iowa and then wins south carolina and then wins florida, he's off to the races. so mitt does have something to

worry about. >> and clearly there is data suggesting they should focus on him. so we shouldn't only look at the facts that newt gingrich brings to the table in terms of hypocri hypocrisy, but there is clearly support and interest in him, which i find confusing. but it's part of the reality there that we have to look at. there is a base out there that is attractive to him. >> well, the thing is, jim cramer, you have -- say michele bachmann, she is relatively new to national politics. you can say the same thing about herman cain. newt gingrich is a brand. he is a name brand. and as conservatives go from one flawed candidate to another, they are desperately looking for the anti-romney. and at least with a guy named newt gingrich, you can say, well, you know what, he did -- he did bring republicans to the speakership for the first time in 40 years. he's a brand they know. so maybe he doesn't melt away as quickly as these other

pretendders. >> he does seem very teflon-like. fannie and freddie, the two most disgraced institutions maybe of the year in terms of the housing crisis, he's affiliated with them. in the media, they say he's affiliated with him. no one seems to think of him as one who took a lot of money from bad agencies. >> he's affiliated with them after saying that politicians affiliated with them should go to jail. >> hey, mr. speaker. >> who says that when they know they've got $1.5 from fannie or freddie and then says anybody that has profited from fannie and freddie should go to jail? newt gingrich does. >> someone who is contemptuous of the media doesn't think that ten articles in the "new york times" mean anything. i saw him attack maria bartiromo when we were at the gop debate. he attacks her. basically says the media -- people hate the media and he wants to join them. coming up, do a growing number of republican lawmakers who signed grover norquist's anti tax pledge years ago now want out? we're going to bring in the hill's bob cusack and russell

berman. also this hour, five years in new york that changed music forever. a new book tells how the city plagued by crime and economic ruin in the '70s produced a music revolution with sound from the ramons and the talking heads and the birth of hip-hop. but first, let's go to weather channel meteorologist todd santos with a check on the forecast. todd. >> hey there, good morning. i have to say, i love all of them. and harkening season is over for both the atlantic and pacific it ended officially yesterday. meanwhile, we are dealing with hurricane-force wind gusts in the sierras. there's the winds now, towards l.a., around 20 miles per hour. last check, we could see gusts up to 40 today. we have had at least one small brush fire. keep in mind, a number of high wind watches, even some wind warnings across the southwest. so, again, be safe across the area. meanwhile, noticing some of the shower activity central to western u.s., a few flakes in the northwestern great lakes but really shouldn't be a major travel issue there. beautiful from boston to d.c. there's denver with snow outside

the front range. denver itself could see 5 to 8 inches worth of snow today. on the cold side of things. and not too much of a warmup there. 38 in new york right now, headed to 50 by this afternoon with sunshine extending all the way towards orlando where you had a cool start this morning. we'll talk more about what you can expect coming up. more "morning joe" coming your way next, as well. ♪ i think i'm falling ♪ i think i'm falling ♪ i think i'm falling [ male announcer ] this is your moment. ♪ for you [ male announcer ] this is zales, the diamond store. take up to an extra 15 percent off storewide now through tuesday. but proven technologies allow natural gas producers to supply affordable, cleaner energy,

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we're doing everything we can to get the -- to get our economy moving again and get people back to work. it's not often i'm asked about some random person in america. & what i think. [ laughter ] >> is he a random person? >> our conference is opposed to tax hikes, because we believe that tax hikes will hurt our economy and is put americans out of work. >> welcome back to "morning joe," 21 past the hour. that was the speaker of the house, john boehner with his thoughts on grover norquist and republicans in congress. joining us now, managing editor for "the hill," bob cusack. and staff writer for "the hill" russell berman who writes about grover norquist refusing to remove the names of house members who have disavowed his attacks. >> are we talking about grover again? >> we are. >> what is this obsession about grover? seriously, grover. >> grover, grover, grover. >> it's all about grover. >> my 4-year-old likes grover.

that's a different grover. >> that's a different grover. >> yes, it is. is it like afghanistan, where republicans are quietly saying this is kind of more difficult than i thought and we really kind of wish -- >> no, no, it's not like that. it's grover. grover is one guy -- i like grover. i sang grover's pledge. but i did go around and shake -- oh, my god, i signed grover's pledge, will i be able to go back on the pledge with grover -- the pledge is not -- and we'll get to our guest in a second. the pledge is not to grover! this is -- this is what news people when -- and democrats when they try to set him up as a bogeyman don't get. it is a pledge to an idea. that our federal government spends too much and has spent too much for decades. and before you come to me and ask me for more taxes, i expect you to cut spending. that's what the pledge is to. >> where did grover get this mystique from? >> from the media!

who made him up. because the media always has to make up boogiemen. if john boehner were a boogieman -- if you could turn him into -- they would be doing this with boehner, but they can't, so they have gone out and they have found grover. and by the way, you know who loves it the most? >> hmmm? >> grover. >> grover loves him. why shouldn't he love him. >> because it turns -- >> bob cusack -- >> where is cookie monster? >> i want to ask bob cusack, are there republicans who maybe feel they shouldn't have signed the pledge and we can leave grover's name out of it, if that makes joe more comfortable, but the pledge is something that could be getting in the way of progress. is that possible? >> it is, mika. some republicans say i signed the pledge a decade ago, but i want out of it, and grover says no. of when you signed the tax pledge, it's forever. and so more and more republicans are going after grover, whether it's frank wolf or laterrette publicly and saying, listen, gym

memberships expire, milk goes roa rotten. we see this on the payroll tax extension -- >> wait, wait, wait. >> yeah. >> grover is not their boss. the voters of their district is their boss. >> oh, that's right. but joe, you know that a lot of these freshmen are coming up for primaries. if you break the pledge, you're susceptible to a primary challenge because you can say you broke the pledge. >> all right. russell berman, give us a sense then of how many republicans we're talking about who might feel a little bit uncomfortable with the pledge they made. >> well, we talked to half a dozen, either the members themselves or their spokesmen in the house who say they no longer feel bound by the pledge. there's a couple prominent members of the senate, tom coburn of oklahoma being the most notable. who have said they don't feel bound by it. and part of the problem here is not so much the pledge, but it's how you define a tax increase.

and -- >> right. >> and these members do not want the one unelected official, in this case grover norquist, defining for them what is and what is not a tax increase. >> and you know, mika, we always talk -- jeffrey sachs and i were disagreeing with what a tax increase was, what a tax increase isn't. but there are a lot of republicans who want to close the loopholes. >> yeah. >> that don't want billionaires like warren buffett to pay lower tax rates than their secretaries. and i he guess a problem, willie, that's where grover may say that's a tax increase if you bring more revenue into washington, d.c. that's where people like tom coburn say uh-uh. and by the way, i'm good taking this to the people in my district. >> but 238 people in the house have signed it. >> right. t the. >> and if you listen, i want to keep pushing, the narrative out there is that grover norquist controls the united states congress. >> he stopped it. of. >> bob, let me ask you. it sounds like some of these guys -- he won't let them out.

it's like indentured servitude. what about free will? can you say i'm not going toel follow this anymore? what is the poll that grover has on these guys? >> the only recourse these guys have is to go to the media and fight back and grover norquist is very media-friendly. so these members talked to us and said listen, don't consider me one of those 238 members. i'm no longer on. i changed my mind. the amazing thing is, yesterday both senate leaders were talking about tax reform. you can't get $1.2 trillion in deficit reduction and how are you going to do comprehensive tax reform in an election year? it's just kind of absurd. it's like jim mora, the football coach who said playoffs, there's no way tax reform can get done when you have democrats and republicans -- and i heard you earlier, joe. i think if president obama could go back in time, he would endorse the bowles/simpson proposal. because that would have divided republicans. some republicans were all for that. >> so why didn't he? >> i don't get -- >> divide democrats on medicare

cuts? >> well, i think he was a little concerned about taking too much heat on the left, which he subsequently did when he almost made that deal with john boehner this summer. >> yeah. i still say -- you take a guy like tom coburn and i think tom is not going to run again. i think tom -- if grover -- grover would not go up to tom and say, i'm going to primary you. because if he did, tom would say, go ahead. make my day. and i have got to say the same thing if i were running right now, and i will say, i like grover, i signed the pledge. i like -- it sticks a flag in the ground and says -- i think washington spends too much. don't come asking for more taxes until their massive spending cuts. i think -- if i were running this time, and i supported tax reform that would make billionaires pay a higher tax rate than their secretary. grover wouldn't primary me. and if he did, i would make him a punch line in my district.

he knows it. of the power comes from the media. the power comes from the democrats who paint him into this bogeyman. he's a guy with a piece of paper. >> he's a guy with a piece of paper, but clearly he's got a lot of republicans who have signed the pledge. >> right. >> very nervous about re-election. >> well, sure. everybody is nervous about re-election. >> how can you -- i think -- >> russell, let me ask you, russell. do you find that there are members on capitol hill, republican members on capitol hill that quake in their boots when talking about grover norquist the way they might quake in their boots when they find out the appropriations chairman is about to cut out all of the highway spending in their contradict? >> i think you have a point there. you don't see a lot of quaking at least publicly. and actually, what you see is people who are kind of annoyed that he has gotten so big and that he is so out there and he's allowed the democrats to demonize him and by association to demonize them.

so i think what we're seeing in this, a little bit of a changed mood toward him, is more that there are just -- they think he has gotten too big and they want him to lay low a little bit. >> all right. well, listen, i that i both of you guys for being with us. it's a fascinating topic. >> it is. and -- >> thank you. >> and you can say that he's not that important. yeah. >> so i'm going to -- >> but he is. >> i'm going to sign a pledge here. >> yeah? >> because i like signing grover's pledge. and never broke that pledge. balance the budget for the first time in a generation, balance it four years in a row for the first time since the 1920s. >> that's impressive. what. >> have we got here? >> this is the mika pledge. and i will be nice on-set. >> as your agent, i can't let you sign that. >> why is that? >> because you're going to break it within 15 minutes. >> you think so? >> you're going to be in breach of contract on a daily basis. >> you don't think i can be nice to mika the whole show?

>> no. >> really? >> you going to do it? >> dam the torpedos. full speed ahead. this is like the grover pledge. once you sign it, it cannot be revoked. >> i'm going to keep that. gentlemen, thank you very much. up next, new york city in the '70s and the era that revolutionized music. we're going to talk about it next on "morning joe." what do you got? restrained driver in a motor vehicle. sir, can you hear me? two, three. just hold the bag. we need a portable x-ray, please! [ nurse ] i'm a nurse. i believe in the power of science and medicine. but i'm also human.

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♪ welcome back to "morning joe." you just heard a snippet of the song "love goes to buildings on fire" by the talking heads. and here with us now, senior critic for "rolling stone" magazine, will hermes, who goes in-depth talking about "the talking heads" and a wide range of other ground breaking musicians in his new book. five years in new york that changed music forever. welcome to the show. >> so five years in the 1970s. obviously anybody that was in new york city in the 1970s, especially the late '70s understands it was a garbage dump. and yet from that garbage dump emerged some remarkable music.

mainly out of cbgbs. talk about that time. talk about the music. >> well, it was actually happening all over. and as i researched the book, it was amazing to find that the cbgb story has been told, but less so the fact that the salsa scene at that time, which every spanish language new yorker knows about, but maybe the mainstream doesn't, was flowering at that time. it was maybe the center of the spanish language music world. >> yeah. >> east harlem and up in the bronx hip-hop was being invented. story -- the early years of hip-hop has not really been told that much. the language of modern jazz was being reformed. modern composition was being reformed. >> so i'm always fascinated, whether you look at london, 1962 or whether you look at seattle 1989, 1990, 1991.

there always seems to be something, sort of this hot house effect that creates great bands. what was it about new york in the '70s that brought about the ramons, the new york dolls, the talking heads, on and on and on? >> right. bruce springsteen came over from -- >> yes, bruce springsteen. >> really got his start here. it was a mess, but i think a lot of it is because this period happened at the tail end of the '60s, which didn't really end until '72. >> yeah. >> people didn't want the party to end. it finally did end, and things were kind of a mess, and people kind of hung over and it was like the economy of new york city was in shambles. and people were like, well, what do we do now? i think some of that optimism was carried into a period where people were like, well, we have to make something of our own. this is -- the '60s never really took hold in new york city in any case. so it's not really a flower

power town. >> and you had bands getting bigger and bigger, the amps getting bigger bigger. i'm fascinated. help me out here. we always have a debate, my son and i, who led to the sex pisto pistols. the sex pistols were really the shot heard around the world that really blew apart sort of the led-zeppelin, massive overwrought vision of rock. was it the ramons, was it the new york dolls? who led to what happened in 1976 with the sex pistols? >> the overhaul of rock and roll. it sort of happened with the beatles importing american rock and roll back to us in a sort of -- >> right. >> better form or marketable form. the sex pistols got a lot of their sound from the new york dolls. they actually shared a manager. the manager of the new york dolls, who most people might not have heard of, they put out a couple of pretty great records, and in 1970 -- >> malcolm mclaren --

>> he was the manager of the sex pistols but he for a while was manager of the new york dolls. >> i never knew that. >> he did -- he was a fashion guy. he did kind of hip street fashions. and he discovered the new york dolls, because they were really about fashion. in fact, they dressed pretty wildly, even by late '60s, early '70s standards. >> now, when did they break away -- was that '73, '74? >> they got their record deal in '73. by '75, they were pretty much -- >> what about the ramons? were they '75? >> the ramons came together in late '74, '75. and one of the things -- researching this book, which is really very interesting, the early days of springstein and the ramons and patti smith, they were all kids. and they were all really kind of inventing themselves. and they were reinventing music at the same time. and so hearing them kind of

learning -- you know, figuring out how to make something for themselves make music that was different from the '60s, but that would work at this, you know -- >> yeah. >> so what resonated by springstein, for example? what -- why did he resonate? >> well, one of the things i found out doing a lot of research on youtube was bruce springsteen we know now was kind of still being formed in these years. he was a guy from new jersey, he started out playing new york city clubs as a solo acoustic guy. he didn't have the e street band with him. and he was putting a lot of words together in very long, kind of rambling songs. he was trying to reconnect with kind of, you know, early rock and roll, but he hadn't really nailed it yet.

>> yeah. >> fast forward a year or two after that, sex pistols, '75, '76. '77 -- willie is a big village people fan, disco. why did that happen -- seriously, from a musicology point of view, what happened in our world that there was this huge right turn in the music that mattered in this country for about three or four years? >> by the way, donny, now -- willie is reliving his glory days. >> there it is. >> and we were talking about hip-hop -- >> '54 -- >> seriously, i don't even want to see the pictures. i don't want to see the pictures of what happened in the basement. >> i liked the village people, but that's a whole other show. >> oh, god. >> no, what happened was that dance music was really invented. >> why? something was -- what was going on in the world? >> well -- >> a lot of people with really bad taste got together. >> well, it was a bad economy. it was a hard time in new york. rent was really cheap. so you had artists were able to set up shop.

and you know, do performances -- you know, they could live together, pretty inexpensively. you had people who were able to rent out loft spaces and set up dance clubs. and i think it's a reaction to bad times that people want to make beautiful things. and that's why art i think -- it's very often flowers during tough economic times, because it's a reaction of -- it's a way people can kind of control the culture and make it better. >> so where is it happening today? we talk about london, the '60s, new york and the '70s, seattle and the late '80s. where is the hot house that we're going to look back 20 or 30 years from now and say what a great place for music, all these bands came from this place. >> here in new york, brooklyn is i think creating -- >> brooklyn -- >> yeah, creating incredible music in the jazz world, and the

rock world and the classical world as well. and there's also kind of a community on the internet happening, as well. so it's a little bit different now in that music is a little bit more diffuse. you can have scenes -- like hip-hop is now international. this is music that started in the south bronx during the worst years of the new york economy when the south bronx was held up by jimmy carter as being like, you know, the worst slum on the planet. certainly in the united states. but it created what is now, you know, maybe the strongest pop music there is. >> you talk about a -- mccain references. great neck long island. a lot happening there. >> that's -- >> what's wrong with you? what are you talking -- >> i missed that in the book. what. >> are you talking about? >> no, seriously -- >> billy joel. >> music scene in brooklyn is incredible. >> l.a., too. >> the pacific northwest always strong. something about that rain from portland to seattle.

>> i have to say, though, you guys really need to play the ramons "under the weather" more often, because there is something about blitzkrieg bop that wakes people up. >> the book is "love goes to buildings on fire." will hermes thank you so much. >> rock on, guys. still ahead, brian williams shows jon stewart what it's like to anchor a show during a fire alarm. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.

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♪ >> two words, disco inferno.

>> "burn, baby, burn." >> do you know who the artist behind that is? >> traveris. heaven -- only takes a man. >> "burn, baby, burn," disco inferno. and i've got to say, the line of the '70s, "burn that mother up." and you know what's so sad -- turn this music up, okay? turn this music up, because the sad thing about this is, i want everybody to close their eyes right now. ♪ burn baby burn >> and you can actually visualize donny deutsche on the dance floor at studio 54 with an open shirt. >> that's how you danced? >> right? and one of those shirts that have the dogs boxing in silk with a baby blue leisure suit. >> yes, sir. >> and i'm not just talking about last night. this happened every night in the 1970s. >> did you getting to to the downstairs --

>> i went everywhere. >> wow. >> did you wear -- >> did you wear speedos? >> you know, i'm not even going to answer that. >> that's what google is for. there are pictures. >> late '70s. you know what, those were kinder times. >> no, i don't think so. let's get a check before the bell, cnbc's brian sullivan. he is live at the nasdaq. not at studio 54. so donny, you may want to tune out this segment. so, a little bit of good news, brian. it seems. from europe. we've -- have some credit easing and the market skyrocketed. >> the dow had a huge gain yesterday, up nearly 500 points because the central banks are going to get together in a room, kind of a disco inferno, a fiscal infusion of cash. >> right, baby. >> yeah, and they're going to turn that mother out. when i mean mother, i mean the markets. and we certainly did rise yesterday. we had some better news lately,

guys. i know people hate to talk about good news, but i'm not afraid to say it, things are slowly getting better. even though unemployment benefits this week were back above 400, the overall trend, the four-week trend, look at the average, has been down. everything coming in, all of the dirt -- any wonky data you want, guys, has come in better than expected. and i have to tecum bridge with your previous guest. he missed the two most important bands in my humble view, "television," number one blam-rock band and the band i would nominate to be the theme band of d.c., "the stooges." >> there you go. >> that's a guy who should be reporting financial news. >> this is a man i want to hear what's going on in the stock market. >> the stooges. >> my new favorite -- >> i love that guy. >> thank you so much, brian sullivan. up next, the best of late-night. [ female announcer ] lactaid milk is easy to digest. it's real milk full of calcium and vitamin d.

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you'll forgive us, we have a fire alarm announcement going on here in the studio. [ laughter ] >> no, i will not forgive you. [ laughter ] >> while staying in the air -- well, perhaps not something special anymore. [ alarm going off ] >> again, we have an announcement going on here in the studio. [ laughter ] >> that's the i'm gonna

[ bleep ] kill someone smile. i've seen that. i'm sure after the commercial break they finally fixed that alarm. [ alarm sounding ] >> as we continue to deal with a fire alarm that is stuck -- [ laughter ] >> he's not even pretending anymore. [ fire alarm ] >> oh, this better not be what i think it is. [ alarm still sounding ] >> you trying to do a show? >> yeah, we're actually right out there, just trying to do a show. and appreciate it if you would -- >> not so funny, is it, funny man? [ alarm sounding ] >>, what i'm sorry? you were trying to say something? >> don't you have a show to do! >> oh, i have a show to do, john. we call it addressing the nation. why don't i go do it?

williams, out. do-do-do! >> one weird news man, jon stewart. >> he is, but he's our weird news man. >> loved it. up next, what, if anything, did we learn today? it's like having portable navigation. a bluetooth connection. a stolen vehicle locator. roadside assistance. and something that could help save your life - automatic help in a crash. it's the technology of five devices in one hard-working mirror. because life happens while you drive. this holiday, give someone you love an onstar fmv mirror for only 199. visit onstar.com for retailers. spark card from capital one. spark cash gives me the most rewards of any small business credit card.

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♪

welcome back to "morning joe." we continue our disco hits of the '70s for donny deutsche. >> even though he's left. >> scared him away. >> i was hoping we could go with him, but -- >> the old spice after shave is still with us, as well as the quaaludes scattered across the floor. musk for men. >> you were making a case -- he was making a case for quaaludes. responsible father. >> i know he was. >> what did we learn? >> i learned to the list of names like reagan, gorbachev, john paul ii, we must add newt gingrich. >> he was the first one ever to knock down that wall. >> so brave. >> oh, my god. >> so brave of him. what have you learned? >> there is a candidate -- just a smidge of self awareness would help. give us something else to talk about. >> we need something else to talk about and we're goi