john tower, what you got? >> allen from new jersey, i'm up on the off chance i might hear a governor keene impersonation. >> he had an ad out. the governor said new jersey and you perfect together. it was a great ad, everybody in new jersey knows it. a small sliver of our great country got that joke. one tweet for you, i keep my tv on msnbc all night for my dogs. it keeps them from barking. no particular interest in this program or any program on msnbc, actually, just a soothing sound for the dogs. we'll take the viewers as we can get them. . "morning joe" starts right now.

>> he is a typical, cynical chicago ward politician who runs for office and promises everything. and then comes to office and disappoints. and so their anger is rooted not in me or in mitt romney, their anger is rooted in the fact that they believed in this hope and change garbage that they were sold three years ago by this president. they believed in the fact that this president was going to be a post partisan leader. they believed this president when he said he was going to be a transformational figure in our country. >> top of the hour, 6:00 on the east coast. good morning, everyone, it is thursday, december 8th, welcome to "morning joe." with us onset, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle, and

editor for "new york" magazine john heilemann. >> chris christie is a lot like mitt romney, you throw a punch at him, he sort of shrinks. remember that town meeting in california it happened and he turns to the guy and he says you were the problem with america. >> got another one for you today. >> another one for you, christie at a town hall. >> he's a tough one. >> we've got that coming up. but first, we have some news about rod blagojevich. >> our friend here. >> and i want you two to withhold -- >> our friend. and -- >> today rod blagojevich is staring at a 14-year prison seasons three years from the day of his initial arrest and corruption charges. under the punishment handed down yesterday, the former illinois governor will report to a federal lockup in february. he'll likely spend at least 12 years behind bars after being convicted on 18 felony counts, including trying to sell

president obama's old senate seat. and don't do that. alongside his wife and attorney, blagojevich turned to poetry when talking to reporters after the sentencing. >> of course he did. >> kipling in his poem if among the things he wrote was, if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same, patty and i and this is a time to fight through adversity, and patty and me to get home to explain to our kids, our babies amy and annie what happened, what all this means, and where we're going from here. we're going to keep fighting on through this adversity and see you soon. >> okay. these illinois governors go down every -- every second or third illinois governor seems to be indicted and thrown in jail. i've got to say, though, the 14-year sentence is so

excessive. >> yes. >> so excessive. the jury was deadlocked on all but one count. this is -- and we joke about him all the time, we joke about blagojevich all the time. because he's so over the top in so many ways. but a 14-year sentence for something that the state really had trouble proving. >> if i may -- >> is so excessive. >> he made fun of the whole thing. >> so you're going to send a man to jail and keep him from his kids and family for 14 years? >> i would argue that he profited from it. >> oh, so you -- you've got no problem with him being sentenced for 14 years -- >> i'm not saying -- >> when people who raise little children -- i'm talking about not him going to jail. i'm talking about the excessiveness of the penalty. 14 years is excessive by any standard. there are people that rape children that get probation. this is -- this is outrageous.

>> joe, we looked this up. truth in sentencing, a group out of chicago. the average sex offender in the state of illinois gets a sentence of 9.7 years. governor blagojevich got a 14-year sentence with a minimum of 12. he did a lot of things wrong, he should never be able to serve again, he probably should go to jail, but 14 years. >> put a mark on his name. send him away to jail for a year or so, 14 years -- >> so what, seriously -- >> come on. this is total b.s. >> i've been doing this a long -- >> it's total b.s. >> court coverage, sentencing, this is a classic case of misplaced prosecutorial outrage. it's a big headline case. so the prosecutor sets it up as if it's the crime of the century. it's not the crime of the century, unfortunately. >> i'm not saying it is. >> unfortunately for the political system, it's a fairly

common thing, and it's awful, it's outrageous, and it's depressing in terms of the electorate. but 14 years for this crime is an outrage. it really is. >> and you know -- this guy gets what he deserves when he's prosecuted with a wiretaps, they showed he was not a clean character whatsoever. but the excessiveness is outrageous. it is a judge trying to grab headlines. >> i'm not judging the length of time. it may be too long, but do you think he conducted himself wisely? >> we all agree with you, mika, and by the way -- for the idiots at home -- the idiots at home that think we are defending -- for the idiots involved at home who think we are defending what rod blagojevich did, you are an idiot and you are too stupid to watch tv. so turn off your tv set and slowly step away -- >> don't do that.

>> no, you're too stupid -- this, though, is about fairness. it's fairness and sentencing, and when you talk about 14 years, john heilemann, i today could go to illinois, or go to the federal dockets and i could -- it would take me -- because, you know, i've practiced law for a little while, i could find a dozen cases in ten minutes, basically pled out this week. this week in illinois. that would make this sentence look outrageous. >> well, willie just pointed out, that's a pretty stark statistic that the average sex offender sentences five years less than rod blagojevich. >> maybe that's the problem. >> that's obviously a huge problem. it's interesting, joe, you made a point glibly at the beginning which is part of the story which is the fact of there's a lot of history of political corruption in illinois, governors had problems. there's an accretion of sentiment that builds up over time and he ends up paying for the sins of all of his predecessors in addition to his own very real seasons.

you know, but i do have some sympathy with mika's point only in the sense that they sort of so often we see these guys misplay these cases. you know, he flaunted the system, he acted like a jerk for such a long time. i'm not saying he deserved the sentence, i'm saying, you think if he had a shrewd lawyer and a sense of how to be contrite over the last three years, he might have been able to see this problem coming and help himself out. i'm not making a case he should go to jail for 14 years. >> that's all i was saying, i'm not sure -- maybe when it comes from a male's voice. >> no, it doesn't come from a male voice. i'm not saying i agree with you. you're sitting here saying that somehow because he irritates you that you're going to sit back and take offense that we're saying 14 years is excessive. >> it seems excessive, but i'll tell you this, i don't think i was the only one irritated, okay. >> well, we were all irritated. >> it doesn't matter. >> it's irrelevant! irritation is not a felony.

irritation is not a felony. >> okay. so how about flaunting -- >> that doesn't matter. >> profiting from that -- >> whoa, whoa, mike -- >> it only matters in the sense because -- because it's a show trial, because you know that there's prosecutorial -- it becomes a case not just about the legalities. there is this bigger stage being played out. in the same way you p find yourself wondering why is jerry sandusky's lawyer letting him go on television over and over again and do these things that will hurt his case down the line even if they're not strictly legal. who is this guy taking advice from? >> if you're a federal judge and going according to the letter of the law, the theatrics are set to the side. >> i don't disagree. >> i would urge people who are watching this program and they're offended or upset what we're referring to, take a look at the average time served for murderers in your state. >> for murderers.

>> check that out. >> people that kill, people that kill other people are sentenced to less time than rod blagojevich. >> all i'm saying, for the record is, it seems excessive, i'm kind of not surprised that he got an excessive sentence. >> true. true. >> given the case. >> well, but we only agree with you because it came from a female's voice. >> if acting like an ass was a felony, i'd be in jail right now. >> joe's already living in jail for that. >> let's go to mike's story. next, talking about numbers that are shocking. >> this is -- >> now, this is a political earthquake occurring right now. not just the republican side, but newt versus obama. >> paddles to the chest everyone. >> newt gingrich now unequivocally dominating the republican presidential field in three of the four early primary states. the latest cnn "time" poll shows

gingrich on top in iowa with 33% support among caucus goers, that's up 23% of his october numbers, mitt romney down 4 percentage points. ron paul behind romney at 17%, still within the margin of error. those two. >> he's gone up. >> in south carolina, gingrich's lead over romney increases to 23%. >> that ain't nothing, that's huge. >> my blood pressure. the former speaker is up 35 points in the state since the last poll in late october. >> well, you know, at least you can take some hin the fact that he does poorly in florida. >> no, not really. in florida gingrich also leads romney by 23 points. the former speaker has 48% support in the sunshine state, that's a 39-point increase from the last poll. >> 39 points. >> all right.

>> that's a lot of points. >> you know, john heilemann, the biggest shock of the polls that came out yesterday were the polls that showed newt gingrich ahead of barack obama in swing states like ohio. >> yes, well, this is this morning just now literally a couple of minutes ago. the state poll came out and i've got to say, these -- two different numbers. this ohio number that has gingrich ahead of romney in a head-to-head match-up by -- in ohio by 40-something odd points. >> and then he has -- >> it's 36% to 18%. in ohio, gingrich is doubling romney. >> 55%, 28% in ohio. >> yeah. i'm sorry. >> so for all of the romney people that think once we get to the big states that aren't in the south, we can stick around and fight gingrich down the line. ohio, that's a big number.

equally dramatic in chicago, newt gingrich over obama in ohio in a head-to-head match-up 43%, 42%, that's a heart attack. >> that is mind bending. >> i mean, against newt gingrich. >> that is mind bending. >> in ohio. >> of course, obama beats obama in ohio too. that's not as much of a shock. but a flame thrower like newt gingrich with the train wreck that has been his political career and his personal life, mike barnicle, this is clearly a statement from the american people that has less to do with newt gingrich than it does with the state of american politics. >> correct. i agree with you. it is not so much about newt gingrich as it is about the rest of the republican field, the discontent with the direction of the country. >> and with obama. barack obama is losing in ohio in a quinnepiac poll to newt

gingrich. >> i would suggest this, once the coverage -- >> of course. >> goes to content rather than horse race polls, newt gingrich is never going to be president of the united states. >> it seems like they want to overlook everything. everything. >> adjust the one thing here on the ohio poll. if i'm the president's advisers, i'd be concerned about this number. 53% of ohio voters saying he doesn't deserve reelection, 53%, 42% on the question of does he deserve reelection. and again, 53%, we do not want to reelect this guy in ohio. that is -- >> 53% in ohio, when by the way -- a majority of ohio voters clearly say, willie, that barack obama would not do as good a job on the economy as newt gingrich. obama right now, they can run -- you know, they ran more negative 30-second ads four years ago than anybody in the history of

american politics. it's not going to work this year. they have got to figure out a way to talk about paddles to put the paddles to this economy. >> and as john said, these are not states they can chalk up to, well, it's a southern state, that's gingrich's, that's ohio, a state that's a midwestern swing state. i do wonder, though, how much of this is timing for gingrich in terms of his -- how he's doing against romney. republicans tried to fall in love with mitt romney, it didn't happen, and newt gingrich was the guy sitting there at the dance. >> you know, more than anything, you know, we talk about the factors that matter in presidential politics. momentum is everything. and especially in this race, which is for the field has never settled to suddenly get this burst at this moment, it just couldn't have happened better at a better time for newt gingrich. and you think back to june when he was imploding -- >> laughing stock. >> turns out he imploded at the right time. >> i just have one more story. >> yeah.

which actually dovetails with something we'll be doing later on. but she's moved on now to the closely watched senate elections of 2012, a new poll finding harvard law professor elizabeth warren leading incumbent scott brown in a head to head match-up. the poll finds 49% of registered massachusetts voters would vote for or are leaning toward voting for warren while only 42% say the same for scott brown. the poll also finds that attack ads have hurt the favorability among likely voters. interesting race. >> yeah, mike barnicle -- it is a fascinating race, we're still early in the process. but scott brown's got a tough fight on his hands. >> elizabeth warren is a very, very strong candidate in massachusetts, made for massachusetts, she has a message, she's articulate, she's confident, and barack obama's going to be on the top of the ticket in that state. he will carry that state, it's

not ohio. she's going to be a very, very strong candidate. she is a strong candidate. >> now, this poll was taken this past week, the same week that massachusetts voters saw the republican party elevate newt gingrich to the top of -- the top of possibly the republican ticket. that obviously, and this is the story that republicans need to start looking at. there's no doubt that has hurt scott brown in this poll. it'll hurt republican candidates in wisconsin, in minnesota, in michigan, in illinois, in pennsylvania, in new mexico, in arizona, in swing states across america having newt gingrich at the top of the ticket would be devastating, and i suggest that massachusetts poll was impacted by the chaos in the republican presidential race. >> joe, to me, and i suspect to you, john, that is one of the more interesting dynamics of this presidential season in that

the entire republican field provides a drag on local candidates in so many states. in so many states. people look at the entire republican field of running for president and say, oh, my goodness, what's happened to that party? >> john heilemann, why were you laughing? >> mika, you made the point. the correct point that the attack ads have already hurt both of these candidates. i'm looking at my calendar and it's december and there's the attack ads have taken a toll on both candidates. not even the democratic nominee yet, this far out, it's going to be blood over the entire state of massachusetts will be drenched in blood. >> the primary's in september. >> it's crazy. to your point, joe, i was on yesterday with susan, and she said what would you do if you were running for congress and newt gingrich was the head of the ticket -- she said it'd be death for me, a moderate female republican trying to win in a

non-deep red district, you'd be doomed. he's going to be -- he'd be a ten-point anvil around your neck. >> easily in the northeast and the midwest -- >> yeah. >> in the pacific west, newt easily cost 10 percentage to 15 percentage points. how do i know this? because i campaigned in '98 for a lot of republicans. there are a group of republicans largent, lindsey graham, back when lindsey was a conservative, we campaigned for moderates, put our arms around them and say, they're okay. these guys are okay. we need them, send them back. and newt gingrich everywhere we went. oh, you know what? we voted for rick white in washington, but now he's just a gingrich republican. which wasn't the truth. we voted for -- and i could name somebody in illinois. he's just a gingrich republican. i'm telling you, i've seen it firsthand, we conservatives in the republican congress saw it

firsthand, newt gingrich is political death for candidates down the road. >> and that leads to what we've been hearing about washington, which is the establishment is going to mitt romney and saying get your act together, we have to stop newt gingrich for the sake of the party. >> what we led this segment with, governor chris christie, you see him and you think brokered convention. >> the problem is, the republican establishment ain't what it used to be. >> yeah. >> as with all establishments. >> and by the way, just so people understand at home, this is not personal toward newt gingrich and the republican establishment. if newt gingrich helped candidates in washington state, illinois, massachusetts, they would be writing million dollar checks to him. >> he'd be ahead by 80 points. >> he'd be ahead by 80 points. >> the republican party has a historic opportunity as john heilemann said last night at the 92nd street y, to sweep the white house, to sweep the house,

to destroy barack obama politically, you look at these numbers. but with newt gingrich, it's not going to happen. and republicans know it. >> i don't understand it. coming up, we're going to bring in illinois governor pat quinn for his reaction to the blagojevich sentencing. >> can we ask him if when you get inaugurated you immediately are given a criminal lawyer by the state of illinois? >> you know what? -- >> it seems like a fair question. you've got to have one on retainer. you have the right to remain silent. >> look at his picture -- he's like a model. >> that's part of the oath. >> you put your hand -- put one hand on the bible and one -- >> they fingerprint him and put an ankle bracelet on them. >> one hand on the bible, one hand on the inkbloter at the same time, you do them

simultaneously. also, jack abramoff will be here onset. niall looks like he posed. up next, the first look at politico's top stories of the morning. but first, here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. good morning, everyone. finally watching that storm system exiting new england. it's a windy, brisk morning, but all of the snow and rain is just about over with. the only area left to deal with the rain and snow is in central maine and down east maine. so we're left with a very windy, blustery day out there. winds are gusting up to 43 in hartford, that's enough to blow you around a little bit on the roads. definitely want to bundle up the kids and yourself. we're in the 20s in new england and only 30s down from new york to philly. pittsburgh, windchill of 19. some of the coldest air we've had in a while. today, at least with the sun we'll get up into the 40s. little chilly by buffalo, lake effect snow over the next couple

of days. so today, it's a very quiet, tranquil day, should be almost no problems at the airports in the middle of the country and the southeast, and even new england. once the winds die off, the airports should be okay. finally we're heading into a typical december, chilly weather pattern, but no winter storms and no snow heading around the country. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪ [ female announcer ] we never forget the nearly 12 million cancer survivors in america today... and the countless lives lost. we owe it to them to protect funding for cancer research, prevention and access to care.

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powered by verizon 4g lte, this droid is too powerful to fall into the wrong hands. time now to take a look at our parade of papers at 26 past the hour. we'll start with the dallas morning news, which says the obama administration in an unexpected move overruled a decision by the fda that would've allowed anyone regardless of age to buy emergency contraceptives without a prescription. the pill called plan b is currently available to women 17 and older without a doctor's order if they show proof of age. and the "new york times" says the son of qadhafi was planning to flee a beach-front

cottage in mexico before being captured. >> there's a quick look at the headlines. now let's go to "politico," willie. >> let's go to the chief white house correspondent for "politico" mike allen with a look at the playbook. good morning. >> good morning. >> big headline this morning, mitt releases the hounds sending out some campaign surrogates holding a press conference call this morning to discuss the record of newt gingrich. they're looking at some of these polls we've showed this morning, mike, and they're getting serious about him, aren't they? >> that's exactly right. this is romney's new playbook. and willie, as you know, usually when a campaign has stockpiled opposition material, hits on their opponents, they'll put it out bit by bit, maybe leak something here, they'll maybe save something for when a particular issue comes up, they'll put something else out in an opportune moment in the debate.

no, mitt romney because of those polls you were talking about knows that he has no time to lose, they're turning the fire hose on newt. starting this morning 9:00 a.m. on this conference call, they're going to go issue by issue by what they call issues important to conservatives, starting with a fiscal responsibility. it sounds like this morning the romney kcampaign will be paintig him as a big spender. >> and the personal life of newt gingrich. we saw that yesterday in the ad romney put up stressing his clean family life, his wife, his long time at one employer. and also chris christie, another surrogate out yesterday at an event saying mitt romney will never embarrass this country. he'll never do anything to embarrass the country. >> right, they're trying to show governor romney as the stable one. this is where boring is good. where they think boring will be reassuring to people at a time of great uncertainty in the country. as i do interviews about how each side is going to portray

gingrich, how obama people -- the word you hear is erratic. >> mike allen, thanks so much. coming up next, a look at some of the key headlines facing congress in the congress in the next couple of weeks, including whether or not to extend the payroll tax cuts. we'll do that with our good friend kelly o'donnell. we'll be right back. progresso. it fits! fantastic! [ man ] pro-gresso they fit! okay-y... okay??? i've been eating progresso and now my favorite old jeans...fit. okay is there a woman i can talk to? [ male announcer ] progresso. 40 soups 100 calories or less. it's 4g, so you can do more faster. so, kathryn, post more youtube videos of your baby acting adorable. baby. on it. matt, ignore me and keep updating your fantasy team.

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♪ any effort to try to tie keystone to the payroll tax cut, i will reject. so everybody should be on notice. the payroll tax cut is something that house republicans as well as senate republicans should want to do regardless of any other issues. i don't expect to have to veto it, because i expect they're going to have enough sense over on capitol hill to do the people's business and not try to load it up with a bunch of politics. >> welcome back to "morning joe." a live look at capitol hill before the sun comes up over washington. and joining us now from

washington, nbc news capitol hill correspondent kelly o'donnell. now, let's just be clear here because i wonder if the president, some would allege, is using politics, putting off the vote on the keystone pipeline. >> until the day after the election? >> i mean, he's going to vote it through, is he not? >> that would be a shocking thing for the president to be playing politics in that way. >> there's a lot of talk about that. and republicans want to tie this because they say it is the most shovel-ready to use that old term that was popular so long ago of jobs projects out there. you have in the payroll tax, which is one example where democrats really feel they have an issue that is not only politically to their advantage but is very popular, it's a simple message, it's maybe one of the most joyful times i've seen democrats on the hill all year is with this issue because they believe they're on the right side of it. and so republicans who have some more nuanced positions related to this, and when the nuance

police come in, you can always lose politically because that can be tough, they'd like to try to attack things like the pipeline, not all of them, but that's one of the arguments being made to try to sweeten it to attract republicans. what we're seeing here. i nearly fell out of my chair when harry reid cited grover norquist and harry reid within seconds. you know the stars have aligned differently and democrats are excited about the potential. how do they get it done? that's more complicated because there is as democrats would say a rebellion among republicans, there's differences over what to do about a payroll tax cut. their main argument is it is money diverted from the social security trust fund. that, of course, gets replenished by taking money elsewhere in the government. and they say it's not the best policy even though they like tax cuts. >> so kelly -- let me ask you about that. i think they're going to pass that thing. but let me ask you about the

pipeline. where are the democrats? in the senate, where are the democrats in the house on this keystone pipeline? which i think would without a doubt create so many jobs at a time when americans need jobs. >> the jobs issue is big. and it is getting a lot of attention, and especially those states that have something to gain in this. nebraska, for example. you've got a lot of support for it, but it is also an issue the democrats aren't necessarily as anxious to fight for right now. when they think they have something that is easier for them to fight for with the payroll tax cut and some other things at the end of the year. people seem to say that this will eventually get done and there are those who are more cynical and critical saying it's being diverted because of the political year and all the pressures that come with that. mitch mcconnell was much more direct and said the president needed environmentalists to stuff and lick envelopes for him next year and therefore he is relenting to them says the republican leader. >> i want to ask you about

another controversy that's brewing between the white house and top republicans. apparently the white house and the congressional hispanic caucus are up in arms about republican efforts to derail the nomination of a recess appointee as u.s. ambassador to el salvador. she's been there for a year, the president put her there a year ago. initial questions about her appointment and her appointment for another country to represent were based on unfounded rumors about her relationship decades ago with an alleged cuban-american spy. but senator jim demint is now leading the opposition based on an op-ed that which he said -- at a hearing last month, demint took issue with the effect her op-ed had on the el salvadorian community. >> presuming to represent the views of all americans and strongly promoting the homosexual lifestyle wrote that everyone has a responsibility to

inform our neighbors and friends about what it means to be lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender. the op-ed upset a large number of community and pro-family groups in el salvador who were insulted by her attempt to impose a pro-gay agenda. >> okay. so it doesn't, if you read it. it talks about how homophobia and hostility toward gays is something we shouldn't have in any society. it's something the state department's pushing. burr there's marco rubio saying his opposition is due to the administration's western hemisphere policies in general, not about aponte personally, and he put out a scathing statement, the white house then fired back and says she's done incredible work there for a year, and to stand in her way for purely political reasons and deny the u.s. a representative in el salvador only serves to alienate our allies and run counter to

our interests. kelly, what's going on? we had a judge last week that was blocked by the republicans. and don't even start me about elizabeth warren. is this legit? >> well, there's tools available to senators who are the only ones that get to confirm nominees. and they use those tools to make their own political points and to advance their own agenda. you've got marco rubio saying it has nothing to do with her personally, not abiliout the ambassador herself, it's about trying to take action in that region that he believes needs to be done. more sanctions against cuba and change of policy, and the only bat he has to swing is to block an employee. jim demint made his own case there, you heard what he had to say. and this is likely to come to a head next week when the vote will be taken. and from the folks i've talked to and the number counting we're doing, it's likely she will be blocked and that means her term would come to an end at the end of this year. there's a mood on the hill to

take certain positions. there's just opposition to the consumer, financial bureau, not so much about him as an individual, but wanting to scale back the power of that. it can always look petty and personal when you talk to senators individually, they talk about this is one way they can use their power as another branch of government. and whether there's a democrat or republican in the white house, we see examples of this and tends to be ugly in the moment. but they try to put forth this larger idea of how this is how they can move chest pieces on the board. >> it just makes me crazy. there's almost nothing that makes me crazier than this. look, we have a government, we have elections. when people win elections, i say this on both sides. when the republicans win the presidency when democrats win the presidency, let these people appoint people and then confirm them and let them run our government. because you should if you win the presidency, you should be allowed to appoint your people. if they've done something illegal, unethical, actually wrong, we should be able to oppose them. but to oppose them because you

don't like the consumer of financial bureau, to oppose them because you don't like their views on extraneous issues, it's ridiculous. it brings the government to a grinding halt. both parties are guilty of it. but it makes me insane. >> in this case, this woman has been there a year and done a good job. >> and he doesn't like gay people so -- it's all excuses. >> it's even larger than that. yesterday we had two members of congressmen on, democrat and republican, so proud of the fact they were working together on an infrastructure bill to repair roads and bridges. yesterday was december 7th. on december 7th, 1941, we were attacked at pearl harbor, president roosevelt and those congresses enacted stuff and got us into the war and we know what happened there. if that congress had been populated by people in this congress, it would have been 1945 or 1946 before we ever got off the ground. they do nothing.

they do nothing. >> there would be a secret hold on who will be the new chairman -- >> not available, by the way. kelly, thank you. >> good to see you guys. up next, the must-read opinion pages. >> are we going to do sports any time soon? >> excuse me for wanting to cover a story once in a while. plus, watch chris christie lash out at a resident at a town hall meeting. willie will show us the question that set him off. barnicle, you can go back to sleep.

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okay. beautiful shot of washington, d.c. as the sun slowly comes up this morningment time now for the must-read opinion pages. >> and by the way, yesterday --

yesterday, of course, december 7th. the day lived in infamy. the day after, mike barnicle, a day -- >> another day that will live -- >> another day for certainly baby boomers and people who love the beatles, a day, a sad anniversary. >> john lennon. >> 1980. >> john lennon, shot to death. >> doesn't everybody remember watching that? i think so much of america learned that news watching monday night football, hearing him come on the air. one of the most searing memories of my childhood. i'll remember that until the day i die. >> and after that, what happened in new york was surprising. the city, and the response to it, and the world, unbelievable. >> anyway. >> all right. must-reads. washington post, obama's new square deal. for months progressives have had asked why obama wasn't invoking the populist language of franklin d. roosevelt and the

privileges of economic dynasties. what progressives often forget that fdr offered those words only when his first term was almost over. in his acceptance speech of the 1936 democratic national convention. roosevelt did not become a full-throated economic populist until the election was upon him. and only after he was pressed by a left and a labor movement that demanded more of him. facing his own reelection and pushed by an occupy wall street movement that has made economic inequality a driving issue in our politics, barack obama discovered both of his inner roosevelts. >> is it too late, john heilemann? e.j. dionne's basically saying -- >> not too late. and what's interesting about the speech, it's part occupy wall street, but also part bill clinton. >> i mean, is it too late for him to rebrand himself? >> well, i think it's -- >> and to be trusted in that. >> well, i think that a president who he needs to as,

again, to take a lesson from bill clinton, you need to look like you're fighting average americans every day. fighting is good. fighting on behalf of the middle class is good. you can quibble with the president on the president's policies. but one of the biggest problems he's had is not looking like he's out there fighting every day for average working americans. if the president can find that pitch, it's going to be a close election. and if he can find that place, that's a better place for him than he's been previously by far and one that could lead him to victory. >> you know, mike, you spent your career as a columnist focusing laser light on working class americans. and you came to this set when everybody said scott brown can't win in massachusetts and said scott brown's going to win in massachusetts because working class americans in that state were breaking his way. now you've come to our set over the past year saying there's a real disconnect between working class americans and barack obama. in a speech or a campaign

strategy reconnecting? >> i think we're reconnecting. and i think it will connect him if they continue to use this fairness. >> yes. >> that's the theme. that's the theme that's prevalent out in this country. people know that there is just terminal inequity in the economic system in this country. and we have to get back on the fairness track. that's what he tried to address the other day. and if he stays on that, yeah. >> that's what i mean by the clinton thing. if you work hard and play by the rules. if you work hard and play by the rules, you can get ahead in america. that's a powerful message and a good one for barack obama too. >> an interesting op-ed on newt gingrich. >> the new titlement state. which is that his policies often don't match the high decibels,

as more radical than they really are because mr. gingrich tells everyone they're radical. he might achieve more if he spoke more softly and carried a bigger stick. >> this has been my argument about the modern republican party over the past decade, they've talked at a great decibel, they've attacked their opponents as socialists, and then they passed policies that republicans would've called socialist 20 years ago. they're not speaking softly and carrying a big stick. they're speaking loudly and carrying a very little stick and the "wall street journal" makes that point about newt gingrich. he's a champion of it. calling the cbo socialist while being the biggest champion of a $7 trillion socialist medicare part d plan. >> or saying barney frank and h should be locked. but look at the polls, the rhetoric is winning. we haven't dug deeply enough

into newt gingrich, we have, but i think the american people will learn more about him in the coming weeks and months. right now he's up 23 points, 28 points, 23 points in those early states. >> and for true conservatives, this is a nightmare. just like george w. bush's conservatism was a nightmare for true small government conservatisms because he talked conservative, the conservative movement followed him, the republican party followed him, and he spent more money than any democratic president since lbj. newt gingrich is cut out of that same cloth where you offend swing voters. but if you're going to offend swing voters by making tough choices economically, you're my guy or woman, but they don't do that. >> news you can't use is next. great prices. i just wish you could guarantee me

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oh, my gosh, is it -- >> t.j.? >> wait a minute. >> that was a new screw-up. i've never seen that one before. >> who does that? >> there are times you think -- >> you've seen it all. >> we've been here for 4 1/2 years. >> this is the first tv station i ever worked at. >> in every way -- >> like 30 years ago. >> let's do it again. >> the next morning, he finds a new way to screw up. >> the great ones surprise you. >> the great ones do surprise you. >> never underestimate his capacity.

>> let's start over. >> you know what? >> let's just do it. i don't want it. let's do a little news you can't use. new jersey governor chris christie has made a habit of these confrontations at town hall meetings as you may know. just this week, one person in west new york, new jersey, asked the governor, accused him of planting questions at town hall meetings. here's the exchange. >> do you or your staff ever plant questions at a town hall meeting. my example, march 24th, town hall meeting. >> where are you getting your understanding from? from who? >> i was there. >> you don't know. no, your understanding is it was a planted question. where did you get that understanding from? >> okay. >> no, no, no -- i just answered your question. >> i'm going to answer your question. her name was candy from bloomfield who said that she was a friend of yours.

>> right. >> so that's the source of my information. >> and she said it was a planted question? >> no. i overheard what was going on. >> well, you know, first of all, i don't know who candy is, i may have a friend named candy, i don't know who you're talking about. and second of all, to say it's a planted question, that means my staff's telling someone to ask a particular question and that doesn't happen. so you really, in front of this group, with all of the important issues we have going on in this state, you're wasting these people's time with a question on whether we plant questions in the audience. >> well -- >> now, you have to -- >> with all due respect. if it was a planted question, you are wasting time at the town hall meeting. >> listen, if i planted the question, why the hell did i call on you? give the microphone back. give the microphone back. >> all right. so that was governor christie this week. >> i kind of liked it. i think he made a very good

point. >> i don't think he was as strong as he was in june. with gail from new jersey. >> oh. >> gail! >> yes. >> you don't send your children to public schools, you send them to private schools, so i was wondering why you think it's fair to be cutting school funding to public schools. >> what's her name? >> what's her name, guys? real quick as the governor's talking? talk to gail. >> first off, it's none of your business. i don't ask you where you send your kids to school, don't bother me about where i send mine. >> all right. that's gail. now we've got candy from bloomfield. >> it's good stuff. >> up next -- >> niall ferguson is here with us also, david gregory. keep it on "morning joe."

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♪ i think the best thing romney did in massachusetts was the health care plan. and there's a big article on it yesterday which pointed out that inflation in health care costs had gone up less in massachusetts than in the country as a whole since they adopted it. they cover everybody, life is expectancy is longer, the health indexes are longer in massachusetts. >> gingrich will come up with -- he has some really good ideas. you know, he was the one republican who didn't just dump a tank on the immigration issue in the last debate. he had the best idea. >> firing on all cylinders. >> all right. bill clinton for romney and gingrich. >> not really. but you could look at it that way. welcome back to "morning joe,"

john heilemann and mike barnicle are with us. and we have professor of history at harvard university, senior research fellow at oxford and stanford universities and contribute to "newsweek," niall ferguson also author of "civilization: the west and the rest." and in washington, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. >> we have to go to some of these remarkable polls and ask david what his take is. >> let's start, these polls dominating the republican presidential field. the latest cnn time opinion research poll shows gingrich on top in iowa with 33% support among likely caucus goers. that is up 23 points from his october numbers. mitt romney at 20%, a 4-point drop from two months ago, and ron paul right behind romney at 17%, but still within the margin of error.

>> and you go to south carolina, the numbers are equally stunning. newt gingrich up 35 percentage points in a couple of months, doubling mitt romney, 43%, and then go to the state of florida, a swing state, gingrich also leads romney there by 23 points. 48% to 25%. and i've got to say, david, the most stunning poll that we've seen over the past 12 hours is the new quinnipiac polls which show newt gingrich just dominating mitt romney in ohio and even beating barack obama in a general election matchup. i've got to say -- >> in ohio. >> in ohio. in ohio. the swing state of ohio. i've got to say, i'm a little dizzy. it's like vertigo early in the morning. i do -- i've served with this guy, i've known him for 15 years, i don't get it.

>> well, i think there's a couple of things to keep in mind. that we have seen this now how many times in this primary process where somebody enjoys this kind of momentum and this kind of surge. and we still haven't started voting. so i think that's one thing to keep in mind. the second thing is, david axelrod said it this week, the republican voters are looking to put the snarl on barack obama. and newt gingrich seems to have found a pretty good way to do that in these debates. he's not using paid advertisement to do it. he's doing it, talking to reporters on the fly and he's doing it at these debates. i think those things have mattered. and you see a consolidation of the anti-romney vote. herman cain gets out, that support looks like it's gone to gingrich. voters are looking and saying, look, there's romney, there's everybody else, but that everybody else is represented best by gingrich as somebody who can really sort of take him on. >> i want to get to niall, but first, let's look at the new

quinnipiac polls. just looking at florida and ohio and keeping up with the president in these key swing states, niall, do you find this confusing? or what was reading on your face? >> it's the curse of ferguson because i endorsed romney in my "newsweek" column. so i've got to endorse gingrich. >> if you could do that, we'd all appreciate it. >> i think this is the age of volatility perfectly illustrated where the populist mood leads to great swings in sentiment. i don't think this means gingrich is going to be the nominee much less the president. we'll see a great deal of volatility before the day of reckoning. and i also, think, he doesn't have the organization to go the distance and he's got a huge mountain to climb to beat romney's sophisticated bain capital type organization. and like all of the sort of bubbles in candidate after

candidate, it will burst in due course. >> the other point worth making is looks like the romney team, they have prepared to unleash on gingrich. they haven't done this against anybody else because they haven't felt the need to do it. they wanted to keep his attention on the president, which would help him with the conservative base. here they obviously recognize they've got to do some things to take newt down to remind people, to open the historical flood gates of newt's leadership in all of that speaker gingrich's leadership and all of that entails. and that's a real need here now for the romney campaign. and it's striking to me thus far that they've been so hesitant to go after him personally. but that being said, look at new hampshire, nobody's going after romney specifically in paid ads either. >> john, i want to follow up on what niall said about having the organization to go the distance. because the way this process is set up, we all focus, everybody focuses on the early primary states for the -- for a year on iowa, new hampshire, south

carolina, and a little bit into florida, but you go back to 2008. and the fact is the election on the democratic side was won when after super tuesday when mark penn and the clinton campaign didn't prepare for the long run. they were caught sleeping in 13 races. that made the difference. hillary could never catch up with barack obama. newt gingrich is still in debt and may not be able to pay his debt off until the end of the year. >> if mitt romney can survive the first four contests, he's set up to win a long haul struggle. he has the financial advantage and all of the sophistication and the establishment support that hillary clinton had with the delegate counting savvy that obama had in 2008. and they look at the long run. and as you know, joe, this race could look a lot more like 2008 on the democratic side because republicans are playing by proportional rules rather than winner take all.

he still has to survive the first four states and, you know, we talked about on the show in the last week, the only scenario where romney loses, i think, is if gingrich sweeps three of the first four or four of the first four, and the truth is, it's the momentum now of the first four state polls, the one most striking to me is not the big leads in ohio -- or in florida, south carolina, and iowa, but is the fact he's within single digit striking distance in new hampshire. >> i think you're going to see as we move forward, the gingrich bubble pop a little bit and regardless, we know this. romney's going to be at least a 20%, 22%, 23%. and another player in all of these polls over the past month, ron paul has gone from 10% to 12% to 15% to 17%. he's been doing the slow build politically that you want to do. ron paul's probably going to end up at 20%.

going after the things we know about newt gingrich, mitt romney is releasing an ad that makes clear a very clear yet unspoken swipe at his personal life. take a look. >> i think people understand that i'm a man of steadiness and constant. i've been married to the same woman for 25 years -- i'm sorry, for 42 years. i've been in the same church my entire life. i worked at one company, bain, for 25 years and i left that to go off and help save the olympic games. if i'm president of the united states, i will be true to my family, my faith, and our country, and i'll never apologize for the united states of america. >> i'm mitt romney and approve this message. >> niall, you endorsed mitt, it seems to me in chaotic times, that would be the type of leader americans would go to instead of a man who has lived a chaotic

life. >> right. it's all about americans in the general election, in the presidential election at the end. and we know when you fast forward to that moment it's all about getting the independents, the floating voters and the disillusioned with obama to come to your side. that's a completely different set of objectives from winning the nomination. the problem romney has, he doesn't appeal to tea party types. but he appeals to the people you need to appeal to to win. i think if gingrich gets it, he loses to obama because it should be said, newt gingrich's real achilles heel is not his personal life, it's his intellectual life. he tends to reveal this at unfortunate moments. i speak as a historian, he's a historian, it's fatal to start talking about complicated things in the middle of a campaign like this and i bet you he does it at least once in the next month. my sense is that if you want to win the presidency, republicans, you need to go for romney.

he does offer stability and he appeals to the center the in a way i don't think gingrich ever can. >> in a way you've said we've seen this before, we saw it with cain, perry, bachmann, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. doesn't this feel a little bit different? >> it does feel different. >> gingrich had a republican brand going back to the early 1980s. isn't this different? >> look as you know, you've talked about your own history with him. the downside and the upside, but this is somebody who had a relationship with the grass roots of the party for several decades. and he's cultivated that. and look, it may just be that the republican primary voter knows enough about newt gingrich's past and is okay with it. he's not going to be sort of sidetracked by, you know, his past leadership, his past failures personally, and in the public domain. it may be they're just looking for who can really take the fight to obama.

but this does, i think, feel different for those reasons, and because you just have a consolidation of the rest of the pack with gingrich now as that leader taking on romney who as you say is going to sort of remain at this plateau. enough conservative republican voters know him for how long he's been running. they're still looking elsewhere. and i'm with you, joe, and i'm saying this, somewhat self-servingly because ron paul's going to be on the program on sunday on meet the press, but this is somebody to keep an eye on because he's consolidating support in new hampshire. he may become mitt romney's new best friend. >> listen to this, this is romney's surrogate chris christie. this is one part where i don't think chris christie believes what he's saying. he did hit the campaign trail last night. what's so funny? >> what do you know that chris christie believes? >> i don't feel it. >> during a speech, he

complimented mitt romney's family values and took a veiled shot at newt gingrich. >> this is a guy who is a father and a husband and who loves his wife and his kids. first and foremost when you look at these candidates, say is this the kind of person who is always going to make me proud in the oval office and never going to have to worry that will embarrass america, that will do something that just will make me ashamed? he just won't. and maybe we should expect at least that from all of our leaders. but we learned over time we don't always get it. >> mike barnicle, not only veiled references to newt gingrich but also obviously talking to the republican crowd, a veiled reference to bill clinton. >> well, apparently the majority of voters in the republican primaries don't care about newt gingrich's personal life. they prefer the pit bull as opposed to the collie going after president obama. >> did you see in iowa,

approval/disapproval for gingrich, 55% approval, 18% disapproval. >> yeah. >> the best positive ratio despite his chaotic political career. >> not only chaotic political career. but off of something niall was talking about. clearly you can make a case for newt gingrich having tremendously low self-esteem. he's always boasting about how smart he is and that he's an intellectual. well, this intellectual in the last four days in terms of content, not watching the polls, not covering the horse race, just in terms of content, he's called the president of the united states the food stamp candidate. he has said that children, poor children and minority children have no frame of reference for people who work because they've never seen anybody who has a job and they "cannot answer the bell at 8:00 monday morning." that's in the last five days. >> and if they ever made money,

they made it illegally. >> he's writing off anybody who gets up in the morning to go to work at 5:00 in the morning to drive a sanitation truck. to fill a pothole on a highway. he's writing off all of those people with comments like that and he does it every day. so when we start covering content instead of horse race numbers, he has a problem. >> how has newt responded to this? >> to the ad we showed you, the romney ad, he fought back a little. >> i think mitt romney's a very admirable person, i'm not going to pick a fight over mitt romney. he is -- we like both mitt and anne, they're terrific people. >> could you imagine asking him to be your running inning mate? >> he'd be on the list. hooest a competent person. this is a serious man. i could see -- i would certainly support him if he became the republican nominee. >> we'll see if he says that 24

hours from now because mitt is releasing the hounds later this morning, niall. >> yeah, i'm quite looking forward to that. we haven't seen shock and awe from romney yet. i came around to romney when i read a piece in the "new york times" in an attempt of a hatchet job on him. what they said was he had a hugely successful private equity business called bain capital which made a lot of money by turning companies around, and they fired some people in order to make these companies profitable. and i thought is this the worst thing they can find in the "new york times" to say about this guy? sounds like he's what we need for the federal government. now can we please have the buyout? when people start asking the question, do you want a washington insider, a pro, or somebody who has run a business and turned it into a profitable business? made a lot of money? i think that second characteristic of romney isn't getting enough air time at the moment. >> that's the thing obama's really vulnerable to.

his complete lack of understanding for the how the private sector works, romney gets that. >> david? >> this is not the battle of the technocats here. it's not about who can look at the portfolio and say who's best to run the federal government. there's a lot of anger out there. the president of the united states went out to kansas to say that his campaign is going to be built around the fight for the middle class, restoring fairness, holding, you know, the republicans at the gate who want to take us into the dark ages again. that's his argument. and now you've got gingrich who is bopping along now as a pretty happy warrior, but a warrior, a populist. that's what's driving this campaign right now, not this kind of very sober look at who best technically can run the government. we may get to that point in the debate, but i think the age of volatility that niall's talking about is indeed reflective of how much anger there is out there on both sides. >> well, you know, mika, democrats decided instead of electing somebody that could actually run the government four

years ago, hillary clinton, they decided to pick somebody during the primary process that maybe wasn't the best technocrat but made them feel good. and the question is whether they're going to get somebody who would be a train wreck in the white house or whether they're going to look at who could run the government best. >> if romney wants this nomination and wants to win this nomination, he's a very nice guy, he's got to throw a punch. >> he's got to fight. >> he's got himself, not a surrogate, he's got to throw a punch. he's got to get his hair messed up. >> and by the way, he's going on fox news sunday. chris wallace has never made a secret of the fact that he loathes mitt romney. has never liked him, anybody that knows chris wallace at fox has said the same thing. chris wallace, of course, will deny it and throw an insult around because that's what he's done in the past. but the fact that romney is going into territory where he's

not liked this weekend, i think -- i think suggests that he understands he's going to have to -- he's going to have to throw some punches. >> all right. niall, thank you very much. we'll look for your next column in newsweek. and david gregory, thank you, as well. we'll see you this sunday on "meet the press" with ron paul. >> ron paul. you've got to watch that. ron paul is -- that is the guy to watch. >> coming up, jack abramoff will be here onset. why he says newt gingrich is guilty of corruption. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. the employee of the month isss...

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jack abramoff could sweet talk a dog off a meat truck. that's how persuasive he was. i have a memory of negotiating with jack at a hockey game.

we're a few rows back, the crowd's going crazy, and jack and i are having a business conversation and, you know, i'm wrestling with how much i think i should get paid and then five minutes later, he's asking me questions about some clients of his. >> when you look back, was that the corrupting moment? >> i think we were guilty of engaging in a corrupt relationship. so there were several corrupting moments. there isn't just one moment, there were many. >> welcome back to "morning joe." remember that "60 minutes" piece. neil volz, the chief of staff for bob nigh who pled guilty in 2006. and joining us now, jack abramoff, he's the author of "capitol punishment," the hard truth about washington corruption from america's most notorious lobbyist. >> so jack, let me -- first of all, some house cleaning, here. our paths really didn't cross on

capitol hill. >> not really, no. >> but i always said, though, it didn't cross because you always heard bob and other guys i served with, they would go on golfing vacations with you and business would be done and i just didn't have time. maybe young kids. so i served and flew home the second to last -- i'm not saying i'm holier than anybody, but i also suck at golf, so that helped me too. here's what i don't understand. >> yeah. and i really haven't dug into it and i'm going to get killed for saying this. but when i read what bob and other guys did, and i wasn't close to bob so i'm not saying this about a friend. they'd go golfing in ireland with jack abramoff and then they would put something on the floor a couple of months later. and i sat there thinking, even though i didn't do this because i didn't go, this is how business has been done in washington for 200 years.

what was different about what you did? and what am i missing here? what did the prosecutors say? >> what made it sordid, which is the description. >> and what made you america's -- >> by the way, i'm not defending, you i'm just asking, how is that? you taking somebody on a golf trip to ireland and then him doing business later on, how do you -- how does a prosecutor prove that and put somebody in jail? >> well, proving it is a difficulty, by the way. i pled, i didn't fight when they came for me. i frankly analyzed what i had done, looked at my life, realized i frankly shouldn't have been in the middle of it and cooperated and pled. the fact is, the reason that only bob ney was taken down in the case shows how hard it is to prove this. going back to the question is you and these, you were and they are public servants. >> right. >> and ultimately any public servant taking a gratuity or

gift or anything, whether it's been done for 200 years, 2,000 years, or two years is wrong, and it's something that has to be stopped. >> so if a guy -- again, i was never up on weekends, but let's say a guy decided hey, i've got box seats at the red skins game, come to the owners box, something i never did. and let's say he works for boeing, yeah, sure, that's great. does that mean if i work on the armed services committee and i vote in boeing's favor over the next four years, six years i'm corrupt? or does it just mean -- like there's a reason why the nra gave me money. because they knew i was going to vote their way. but i would -- as i told them at the beginning because they campaigned against me i'm going to vote your way anyway. how do you prove that? >> well, i think it's difficult to prove. and the problem in d.c. is the legal corruption. when one speaks about things that are a problem, it's not necessarily the randy cunninghams and jack abramoffs who go over lines, it's the

people who operate within these lines and the lines, unfortunately, are drawn in a way that the system allows -- it's not polite to say it, but allows bribery. >> so you think get rid of all -- >> yes, clean it up. you've got to do it. >> guy on the inside, washington's most notorious lobbyist, you say get rid of all gifts. let me ask you about newt gingrich, he got about $100 million of gifts over the past decade or so doing what he claims is not lobbying. first of all, when newt said he wasn't a lobbyist, was he lying? >> he may believe what he's saying. but people have to understand lobbying isn't just going to meet with the members. as you recall when you were up there. face time with a member is maybe 2% or 5% of your time, most of it is strategic advice, strategic planning, putting forces in line, that kind of thing. i think the point is that newt and others like him, he's not

alone in this, they call themselves strategic advisers, they leave capitol hill and cash in on the government service. >> how did he make $100 million? >> you have a lot of people who want to curry favor. >> there's so much money, the health care lobby paid him like $34 million to push ideas that barack obama was pushing. $35 million. >> well, unfortunately, there's a lot of money sloshing around up there. >> so i'm looking at the back of the book, jack, and i like anybody who includes in his blurbs, jack abramoff, he's a scum, he's a creep and we hate him, jack abramoff is the blood-sucking bogieman -- >> those are -- >> those will help you sell books. so the book is billed as a -- as an expose. of the corruption of washington, and you were arguing for systemic reforms. i want to speak specifically to

your case. you were part of a corrupt system. >> yes. >> so talk about the most corrupt thing you did in your career as a lobbyist. >> well -- >> not in a legal sense. >> but in the sense -- in the common understanding of the word corrupt. >> well, trying to get a member put through a piece of legislation on a reform bill which would legalize a casino, and in the course of doing it, putting him on an airplane flying to scotland to play rounds of golf at st. andrews and the great courses and bringing him back home and making sure he did his job, which became the job for us, not for the american people. >> so to joe's point, there are issues of legality. you can see there was -- that's a thoroughly corrupt practice. and you're arguing lobbying gifts, do we need to dig deeper than that? >> yes. >> tell us if you could mandate what would clean up politics, what would it be? >> right. there are basically four things i would say. number one, close the revolving

door between public service and cashing in entirely. not this delay, not this i'm going to be a strategic adviser or history professor, whatever the euphemism of the day is. but close the door. go home when you're done, don't hang around washington, it's a dangerous place, you might get mugged, or you might mug someone more likely. number two, no gifts, to contributions, no anything if you're a lobbyist or somebody seeking favor from the federal government. grants, contracts, whatever it is, nothing. you can't give them a glass of water, can't give them a dollar, zero. number three, term limits, which i was not in favor as a lobbyist because once you purchase a congressman, you don't want to repurchase that congressman, term limits, and finally, to have laws they make apply to them. that's just the tip of the spear, by the way, insider trading, there are laws that don't apply to them. those four things alone -- >> your former line of work, lobbying seems to me at the core of this debate we're having in

the country. there's a small sliver of moneyed interest who have all the say in washington and the rest of us in the country don't have a say. i think a lot of people wonder what is the difference between lobbying and bribery. if you're paying money to entertain a congressman and he gives you an outcome you want in the congress, what is the difference between lobbying and bribery? >> well, other than it's impolite to call it what it is, bribery, there is no difference, really, to think about it. any conveyance of a gratuity from a public servant to get that public servant to do what you want is bribery. i think that when one removes that aspect and that element from the interaction, one can have what we should have had, which is the right to petition our government directly or through agents and be able to -- lobbying should be a good thing. people shouldn't look at lobbying as a bad thing, but they do because of money. >> and the situation is better or worse. >> it's the same.

what they do when they reform things is they'll declare a congressman can have a meal with you if they stand up or use their fingers or some other stupidity they'll put in. they need to cut all of it out. >> just want your opinion in a story that's sort of unrelated but on the front pages of all the newspapers, 14 years, rod blagojevich, we started the show on a little bit of a controversial note. contentious note. because some here at the table think it was too harsh a sentence. what do you think? >> well, having served in prison for a long time, i agree. i don't like to frankly see anyone go to prison, certainly not for that long. he won't even be able to go to a minimum security facility. he's have to go to a low -- they call a low security, which includes all sorts of folks that he won't want to meet. my heart goes out to him regardless of what he did, i can't help but feel pain for that because i've been through it. >> 14 years, doesn't it seem a bit excessive? >> to me, it does.

i don't know the nuances of the case and it might have something to do with the fact that he kind of played the public figure during the time he maybe should have been a little bit more modest. >> so you made -- and it's a subtle decision, but willie and i were talking about this. you decided when you were facing prison time -- and it was 50/50, you could have fallen on either line, not to go on a reality show. >> that's right. >> smart move, cowboy. >> fortunately my foot hurt so i couldn't go on "dancing with the stars." >> that probably hurt him, didn't it? >> i think it had to. it had to. yeah, you're confronted with this. you've got to get serious and you've got to realize what you are confronting. you're not confronting some election. this is the judicial system of the united states and ends like this, unfortunately. >> how are things going for you personally now that you're out? do you have some friends? have you talked to bob? >> yeah. we -- >> if you talk to friends --

>> sure, i talk to friends even when i was in prison. i was there 185 weekends, i got visits. >> i guess a question is, did your friends all abandon you? >> no. >> did you have a group that stayed? >> i'd say 80 or 90% of my friends stayed with me. >> that's great. >> now, the politicians and congressmen, i don't know they were friends, they were convenient relationships. so -- >> i've got to say 80%, 90%, that's a better attention rate than when i left congress. >> i love kevin spacey so it's hard for me to give him a thumbs down, but the movie was a little diversion from what i thought my life was. >> that's hollywood. >> thank you very much. >> thank you so much. great to see you, jack. ahead this morning, illinois governor -- >> we're going to ask him because willie brought up a great point, should they read illinois governors their miranda rights when they're getting sworn in? >> we'll be back. ♪ i'm burning out this useless telephone ♪

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i'm not ashamed to admit i'm a christian, but you don't need to be in the pew every sunday to know that there's something wrong in this country when gays can serve openly in the military, but our kids can't

openly celebrate christmas or pray in school. as president, i'll end obama's war on religion, and i'll fight against liberal attacks on our religious heritage. faith made america strong, it can make her strong again. >> you know there's so many disturbing things about that ad. i would begin with the horns, what was that? but secondly, i didn't know -- and maybe -- i didn't read it in the papers, do we have -- >> we covered the news every day for three hours. >> i was looking for -- >> the stories on obama's war on christmas? war on religion? >> war on religion because i missed that because obama -- >> maybe it's online, i'll google it. >> i've heard and you know what? he's so cunning, i'm sure he did this because it's part of the plot saying that he believed in jesus christ as his personal lord and savior. that has to be a smoke screen, i

guess, and rick perry's saying -- but i missed his war on religion. >> it's a special ops war. >> is it a special ops war? >> drones. they're playing led zeppelin songs backwards. >> they play the obama speech backwards. >> it only comes up in this serious ad. >> plus you know, clearly the target one wants to go after is gay soldiers dying for the country and putting their lives on the line -- >> that is the biggest threat to america. >> absolutely, a horrible thing, we can't allow it. >> enough. >> nice christmas message. >> you know what? suddenly, willie, i am missing mike huckabee's ikea cross shimmering in the background. mike huckabee, run for president! we miss you. >> rick stengel is next revealing the new cover of "time," keep it here on "morning joe." what is that? it's you!

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♪ welcome back to "morning joe," 44 past the hour, joining us now "time" magazine managing editor rick stengel. >> i love this cover. >> who is here to reveal the latest issue of "time" magazine and joe loves the cover. >> fantastic. how america started selling cars again. it's really the chrysler story, and basically it's one of the good news stories in our republic right now, the bailout that worked. three or four years ago detroit was written off for dead, the obama administration decided to, you know, give the car companies, particularly chrysler a bunch of dough, about $1 billion, and sergio macioni, the ceo of fiat came in, chrysler

paid back $5.8 billion in may. it'll make a $5 billion profit this year. it's going to create jobs over the next year. >> ford didn't take any money doing well. what's going on? >> it's the bailout that worked. and, again, to me it's -- it's evidence that if government, the unions, private sectors can get together, we can -- we can create jobs again, we can revive manufacturing in this country. but everybody has to get together, and everybody has to be on the same page. >> was it necessary to -- and i don't know the answer to this, so this isn't a leading question, but was it necessary to blow up the existing contract arrangements with the unions that the uaw negotiated through the years that made american car companies uncompetitive? >> well, it's one of the things that made them solvent again. you know, the health care

payments they had to make, they had to break a bunch of the uaw rules and unions, and basically everybody started from scratch again. like how do we get back to actually making things that are profitable? the other point that marchionni makes. in 2007, we sold 16 million cars in america, in 2009 because of the recession, there were 10 million cars sold. and he was thinking, people have to buy cars. we will be selling 11 million to 14 million cars in america every year from now on. that's a great business to be in if you're in that business. and the folks that are left are doing well. >> so who is this guy? what's his style? and why did he want to take on this project? >> he's the head of fiat, he's half italian half canadian, he was raised in italy and canada. fluent in english, fluent in italian. i think he was a lawyer by training. i mean, he's not actually a car guy. in fact, one of the interesting things, one of the guys leading

the detroit firms are not car guys. traditionally we always thought we had to have them. he's a steve jobs like fellow. he wears black turtle necks like steve jobs. he's mercurial, and he's willing to think outside of the box. and he's really helped recreate that company. they'll be launching eight new types of cars in the next year or so. >> so, so a guy outside of detroit. >> yeah. >> don't we have the same thing -- >> alan mulali. >> yeah, same thing with ford, you've got to bring somebody outside of detroit if you want to succeed. >> there's also another in a long series of lessons lost on congress in this story. and it is that you have the united auto workers getting together with management. >> right. >> to keep these countries, not only going surviving, but on the verge of prosperity, real growth, and congress are unable to get together on anything. yet the uaw and management, they get together. >> absolutely. and that is an example because,

the uaw did compromise. they want those jobs, right? and you have places like yungstoyung youngstown, ohio, which is creating jobs again. >> let's move to detroit and denver and talk about a young man creating a sensation, a real sensation in the nfl. tim tebow, a guy derided by people like me when he was in college saying he would never be good enough to play in the nfl. a guy who his own -- one of his own bosses, john elway just doesn't like as a quarterback. he has -- boy, he has turned the broncos around, a remarkable story. and a little religion debate going. >> right. so you can talk about him as a football player and you can talk about him as this popular figure now who -- there are people who

rejoice about it and make fun about it. and he talks to our own shawn gregory and says i have good faith in human nature, i think people are celebrating what i'm doing. >> and teammates rallying around him. they believe. >> yeah. >> they believe in tim tebow. >> he's a second-year player who goes into the huddle and commands the respect of veterans who have been in the league and been in huddles with quarterbacks who are more traditional quarterbacks. they call the nfl a passing league. he can't pass yet he's 6-1 as a starter and is taking his team to the playoffs. it remains to be seen if he can maintain this over the long run. >> driving john elway crazy. he looks like he's at a funeral service every sunday the broncos win. >> they keep winning, he'll be okay. >> why doesn't he like him? because elway was a passer and -- >> elway was a passer. i think there's always jealousy with athletes because tebow immediately became a sensation, but elway was looking his chobs.

probably he was thinking seven games ago he was going to get another quarterback from stanford in there, a pure passer. >> probably thought it was going to be andrew luck. also interesting to watch tim tebow attacked for his faith. this is a guy, if you look at the nfl, there are so many bad guys in the nfl doing bad things. >> bad guys. >> and you're attacking him for his beliefs. he's a great kid. you might not like him because he comes off as pious or sanctimonious, he's not. people are projecting that on him. >> read the latest issue of "time" magazine. "morning joe" will be right back. i'd like one of those desserts and some coffee.

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he is a typical, cynical chicago ward politician who runs for office and promises everything and then comes to office and disappoints. and their angered is is not in me or in mitt romney. their anger is rooted in the fact that they believed in this hope and change garbage, that they were sold three years ago by this president. they believed in the fact that this president was going to be a post-par zan leader. they believed this president when he said he was going to be a transformational figure in our country. >> good morning. 8:00 on the east coast as we take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back on set, we have mike barnicle and john lairman. >> chris christie is a lot like mitt romney. you throw a punch at him, he sort of shrinks. >> yeah. >> remember that town hall

meeting in california it happened? he turns to the guy and says you are the problem with america? >> another one for you today. another one for you today with christie at a town hall. >> he's a tough one. >> but first we have some news about rod blagojevich. >> our friend. >> and we want you to -- this is now -- >> our friend. and -- >> today rod blagojevich staring at a 14-year prison sentence almost three years to the day from his initial arrest on corruption charges. under the punishment handed down yesterday, the former illinois governor will report to a federal lock-up in february. he'll likely spend at least 12 years behind bars after being convicted on 18 felony counts, including trying to sell president obama's old senate seat. you don't do that. alongside his wife and attorney, blagojevich turned to poetry when talking to reporters after the sentencing. >> of course he did. >> rudyard kipling in his poem

"if" among the things he wrote was, "if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same," patty and i, and especially me, this is a time to be strong, this is a time to fight through adversity, this is also a time for patty and me to get home so we can explain to our kids, babies amy and annie, what happened, what all this mean, and where we're going from here. so we're going to keep fighting on through this adversity, and see you soon. >> these illinois governors go down every -- every second or third illinois governor seems to be indicted and thrown in jail. i got to say, though, the 14-year sentence is so excessive. >> yes. >> so excessive. the jury was deadlocked on all but one count. this is -- and we joke about him all the time. we joke about blagojevich all the time because he's so over the top in so many ways.

but a 14-year sentence for something that the state really had trouble proving. >> if i may -- >> so excessive. >> he made fun of the whole thing. >> so you're going to send a man to jail and keep him from his kids and family for 14 years? >> i would argue that he profited from it. you know -- >> so you've got no problem with him being sentenced for 14 years -- >> i'm not saying i have a problem with it. not what i'm saying, joe. >> he has little children. i'm talking about him not going to jail. i'm talking about the excessiveness of the penalty. 14 years is excessive by any standard. there are people that rape children that get probation. this is -- this is outrageous. >> joe, we looked this up. truth in sentencing, a group out of loyola university in chicago, the average sex offender in the state of illinois gets a sentence of 9.7 years. governor blagojevich got a 14-year sentence with a minimum

of 12. he did a lot of things. he should never be able to serve again. he probably should go to jail. but 14 years? >> you know what, the guy probably -- yeah, convict a guy on the felony count, put a mark on his name, is send him away to jail for a year or so. >> tried to sell a senate seat. >> so what? >> 14 years. come on. you know, this is total bs. >> okay. >> i've been doing this a long time. court coverage. >> total bs. >> sentencing. this is a classic case of misplaced prosecutorial outrage. it's a big headline case so the prosecutor sets it up as if it's the crime of the century. it's not the crime of the century. >> i'm not saying it is, ba barnic barnicle. >> unfortunately for the political system, it's fairly common thing. it's outrageous and d depressing in terms of the electorate. but 14 years for this crime is an outrage. it really is. >> this guy gets what he deserves when he's prosecuted

with the wiretaps. they showed that he was not a clean character whatsoever. but the excessiveness is outrageous. it's a judge trying to grab -- >> i'm not judging the length of time. it may be too long. but do you think he conducted himself wisely? >> may be too long? we all agree with you, mika. by the way, for the idiots at home that think -- for the idiots involved at home who think we are defending what rod blagojevich did, you are an idiot and you are too stupid to watch tv, so turn off your tv set and slowly step away and go back to bed. >> don't do that. >> no, you are. you're too stupid to think we're defending rod blagojevich. this, though, is about fairness. it's fairness in sentencing. and when you talk about 14 years, john hyland, i today could go to illinois or go to the federal dockets and i could -- and it would make me --

because, you know, i practiced law for a little while -- i could find a dozen cases in ten minutes basically pled out this week, this week in illinois, that would make this sentence look outrageous. >> willie just pointed out, i mean, that's a pretty stark statistic, the average sex offender sentence is five years less than rod blagojevich's sentence. that's obviously a huge problem. you know, it's interesting, joe, you made a point glibly at the beginning that is part of the story, which is a fact of there's a lot of political history of corruption in illinois, governors have had problems. there's an accretionment of sentiment that builds up over time and he ends up paying for the sins of all his predecessors in addition to his own sins. i have some sense of mika's point in the sense that so often we see these guys misplayflaunt system. i'm not saying he deserved the

sentence. you think if he had a shrewd lawyer and a shrewder sense of how to be contrite over this last three years he might have been able to see this problem coming and help himself out. now, again, i'm not making a case that he shouldn't go to jail. >> that's actually all i'm saying. anything that comes from a male voice -- >> no, it doesn't come from a male voice. i'm not saying i agree. you're sitting here, mee kashgs saying that somehow because he irritates you that you're going to sit back and take offense that we're saying 14 years is excessive. >> no. it seems excessive, but i'll tell you this, i don't think i was the only one irritated. >> we were all irritated. it doesn't matter. we were all irritated. >> really? >> it's irrelevant. irritation is not a felony. >> irritation is not a felony. >> how about flaunting -- >> it doesn't matter. >> profiting from it -- >> mike, mike, it only matters in a sense because it's a show trial, because you know that there's prosecutorial overzeal,

it becomes a case not just about the legalities. there is a bigger stage being played out. in the same way you find yourself wondering why is jerry sandusky's lawyer letting him go on television over and over again and make an ass of himself, you wonder, who is this guy taking advice from? >> if you're a federal judge and you're going according to the letter of the law, the theatrics are set to the side. >> i don't disagree. >> people watching this program, if they're offended or upset about what joe and willie and i are referring to, the extent of governor blagojevich's sentence, take a look at the average time served for murderers in your state. >> right. >> for murderers. >> check that out. >> all i'm saying, for the record, joe -- >> people that kill other people are sentenced to less time than rod blagojevich. >> joe, all i'm saying for the record is it seems excessive, i'm kind of not surprised that he got an excessive sentence. >> true.

>> okay? >> true. >> we only agree with you because it came from a female's voice. >> what? >> if acting like an ass were a felony, i'd be in jail right now. >> all right. >> let's go to the next story. talking about numbers that are shocking. >> yeah. hello. >> this is a political earthquake happening right now. >> remarkable new polling. >> not just the republican side but newt versus obama. >> paddles to the chest for everyone. >> polling showing newt gingrich now unequivocally dominating the republican presidential field in three of the four early primary states. the latest cnn/"time" opinion research poll shows gingrich on top in iowa with 33% support among likely caucusgoers. mitt romney at 20%, a four-point

drop from a month ago. ron paul up 5%. in south carolina, gingrich's lead over romney increases to 23%. >> that ain't nothing. that's huge. >> blood pressure. the former speaker is up 35 points in the state since the last poll in late october. >> well, you know, at least you can take some umbrage in the fact that newt gingrich does very poorly in swing states like florida and ohio. not really. in florida, gingrich also leads romney by 23 points. the former speaker now has 48% support in the sunshine state. that's a 39-point increase from the last poll. >> 39 points. >> all right. >> that's a lot of points. >> john, the biggest shock of the polls that came out yesterday were the polls that showed newt gingrich ahead of barack obama in swing states like ohio.

>> yes. well, this morning, just now, literally a couple minutes ago, the quinnipiac swing state poll just came out, and i have to say, two different numbers. this ohio number that has gingrich ahead of romney in a head to head matchup by ksh in ohio by 40-some-odd points. >> it's 36% to 18%. in ohio, gingrich is doubling romney. >> 55% to 28% in ohio for gingrich/romney. so for all the romney people who think, well, once we get to the big states that aren't in the south, we can stick around and fight gingrich down the line, ohio, that's a big number. equally dramatic, and joe, i know this popped off the page for you and should for everyone in chicago, newt gingrich over obama in ohio in a head to head matchup 43% to 42%. that is a heart attack. >> that is mind bending. >> i mean, against newt gingrich. >> that is mind bending.

of course romney beats obama in ohio, too. that's not as much of a shock. but a flamethrower like newt gingrich with the train wreck that has been his political career and his personal life, mike barnicle, this is clearly a statement from the american people that has less to do with newt gingrich than it does with the state of american politics. >> correct. i agree with you. it is not so much about newt gingrich as it is about the rest of the republican field, about the discontent in this country with the direction of the country. >> and with obama. barack obama is losing in ohio in a quinnipiac poll this morning to newt gingrich. >> but i would suggest this -- that once the coverage goes to content. >> of course. >> rather than horse race polls, newt gingrich is never going to be president of the united states. >> it seems like they want to overlook everything.

everything. >> add just the one thing here on this ohio number in quinnipiac. again, if p i'm the president's advisers, i would be concerned about this number, 53% of ohio voters saying barack obama does not deserve re-election. 53% to 42%. again, 53% we do not want to ree electric this guy in ohio -- >> 53% in ohio, and by the way, a majority of ohio voters clearly say, willie, that barack obama would not do as good of a job on the economy as newt gingrich. i mean, obama right now, they can run -- you know, they ran more negative 30-second ads for years ago than anybody in the history of american politics. it's not going to work this year. they have got to figure out a way to talk about paddles, to put the paddles to this economy. >> as john said, these are not states that they can chalk up to, well, it's a southern state. that's ohio, a midwestern swing

state. i do wonder, though, and maybe you can answer this, how much of this is timing for gingrich in terms of his -- how he's doing against romney. republicans tried to fall in love with mitt romney. it didn't happen. and newt gingrich is the guy sitting there at the dance. >> you know, more than anything, you know, we talk about all the factors that malter in presidential politics. moment the tum is everything. and especially where the field is never settled, to suddenly get this burst at this moment, it couldn't have happened at a better time for newt gingrich. you think back to june when he was imploding, turns out he imploded at the right time, because it gave him enough time to get a second breath. >> i just have one more story pap new poll finding harvard law professor elizabeth barren leading incumbent scott brown in a head-to-head mum. the umass lowell poll shows this 49% are leaning towards voting for warren, while only 42% says

the same for scott brown. the poll also finds that attack ads have hurt the favorability of both candidates among likely voters. >> mike barnicle, it is a fascinating race. we're still early in the process. but scott brown's got a tough fight on his hands. >> elizabeth warren is a very, very strong candidate, from massachusetts, made for massachusetts. she has a message, she's articulate, she's confident. barack obama will be on the top of the tick net that state. he will carry that state. it's not ohio. she's going to be a very, very strong candidate. she has been. >> this poll was taken this past week, the same week that massachusetts voters saw the republican party elevate newt gingrich to the top of possibly the republican ticket. that obviously -- and this is the story that republicans need to start looking at. there's no doubt that has hurt scott brown in this poll. it will hurt republican

candidates in wisconsin, in minnesota, in michigan, in illinois, in pennsylvania, in new mexico, in arizona, in swing states across america having newt gingrich at the top of the ticket would be devastating. and i suggest that that massachusetts poll was impacted by the chaos in the republican presidential race. >> joe, to me -- and i suspect to you, john, that is one of the more interesting dynamics of this presidential season in that the entire republican field provides a drag on lea cal candidates in so many states. in so many states. people look at the entire republican field of running for president and say oh, my goodness, what's happened to that party? >> up next, more reaction to the rod blagojevich sentencing. we're going to talk to his former running mate, the current governor of illinois, pat quinn. and "rolling stone" magazine details its version of the new republican agenda. >> i'm sure it will be subtle.

>> yeah. that will be interesting. maybe they'll surprise us. plus, the best songs, albums, and movies of 2011. executive editor rick bates joins us. first bill karins with a check of the forecast. >> good morning, everyone. the storm that brought snow a few days ago to new mexico then yesterday to areas of mississippi and tennessee and then last night to new england is gone. this was a really rocket ship storm. it's now heading into the canadian maritime, just a little snow left for down east maine. we're watching the airports. they're doing okay so far. if you're traveling to the new england area, very windy. a very bumpy flight or two out there. boston, winds gusting to 41, hartford, 37, even d.c. to new york, still gusty. and the windchill, you'll feel it, pittsburgh, 20, 24 for hartford. big change after being in the 60s for three straight days. the cold air continues from minneapolis southward down to denver and chicago. that cold air is heading your way. today a high of 36. tomorrow in chicago only 26 for

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rudyard kipling in his poem "if," among the things he wrote was, "if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat

those two impostors just the same." patty and i, and especially me, this is a time to be strong. this is a time to fight through adversity. this is also a time for patty and me to get home so we can explain to our kids, our babies amy and annie, what happened, what all this means, and where we're going from here. so we're going to keep fighting on through this adversity, and see you soon. >> 23 past the hour. joining us now from washington, democratic governor from illinois, governor pat quinn. good day to have you on. joining the table, executive editor of "rolling stone," eric bates. welcome back to the show. govern governor, let's talk about what went down. we had a contentious conversation at the top of the show because a number of people here on the set think the sentence is just too much. what's your gut on this? >> it's a very stern sentence. the judge was there through both trials. the jury spoke, and it's a sad chapter, and it's closed. the book is closed. the former governor has to go to

jail. we have his predecessor in jail already. and illinois has to make sure that the world knows that we have a reformed governor who believes in honesty and integrity at all times. i enforce all the laws of our ethic standards, and we want to make sure this never happens again. >> so did he help or hurt his cause when it comes to his fate? i know you say justice was served, but you could make the argument that this is a pretty stiff sentence for what he did, i guess. i'm not sure i agree with that personal personally. but a lot of people are making it here. >> well, the judge yesterday admitted -- he said it's a very stiff sentence, but the governor of illinois is the protector of the people, 13 million people, and we've had two straight governors who have corrupted the process, betrayed their public trust. they're both -- one's in jail, the other one's going to jail. we have to do something about it. i've been governor now for three years, and my job is to protect

the people and the integrity of our state government. that's the only way to go. >> governor, in that vein, what's it like for you as the sitting governor now carrying the load of the past two governors that are both in jail and people's expectations of government, people's view of government? you know, they're all corrupt, they all do this, and in a sense not just obviously the governor's chair but throughout the legislature, through people serving in public life. what's it like carrying that load? >> well, i ran an election last year, about a year ago. i won re-election to be governor for four years. i've always been an outsider. i've not been on the inside of illinois government. i stand up for ethics laws all the time. i understand that everyday people are the heart and soul of our state. kids volunteer for our military and work hard to help our veterans and service members. i think their ethic of service is an inspiration for all of us in illinois and america.

that's what i try to follow every day, that service to others is the rent we pay for our place on god's earth. >> all right. and governor, you were in d.c. for a completely different reason, and that is about trying to restore our manufacturing base in this country. >> mm-hmm. >> what do you hope can get accomplished, at least today? >> well, last month illinois created 30,000 new jobs, more than any other state many the union. and we really have to understand that building and making things, america is good at that and illinois is good at that. my favorite words are "made in america." we have companies like ford and fiat chrysler, caterpillar and john deere. these are major manufacturing companies in illinois and in america. and we've got to make sure that we show the world we can do it the best. >> you know, governor, yesterday we had two members of congress, one from illinois, on and they were so delighted with themselves, one democrat and one republican, because they had come up with this incredibly new idea about getting together as different political parties on a bill with regard to

infrastructure. what do you think as governor whenever day of your life as governor you have to make decisions that have to be implemented sometimes that particular day? what do you think when you see how long it's taking the congress to get anything done at all? >> yeah. it's disappointing. i support president obama's jobs act, which has a lot of investment in roads and highways and bridges. and that's exactly what we're doing in illinois. i was governor for ten weeks and we massed a landmark law, public works law that puts people back to work. we have a $31 billion investment in clean water, in better railroads and improving our schools and our university buildings. this is what it's all about. if we build america at the grassroots level, put people to work, lit help our economy today and tomorrow. >> all right. let's turn to eric bates here, who has in this issue of "rolling stone" the gop's crack pot agenda. governor, feel free to chime in if you'd like. i'm going to read from the piece

here in "rolling stone." whether the gop opts for mitt romney or an anti-mitt is almost entirely debe side the point. on the major policy issues of the day, there's barely a ray of sunshine between any of the viable republicans, not counting those who have committed the sin of libertarianism, ron paul or moderation, john hunltsman. no matter who winds up with the nomination, it appears obama will face a candidate to the right of barry goldwater. isn't that, eric, probably pretty good news for obama? >> i think it is. i think obama is rooting for some of these candidates to emerge over romney. but when you look at their agenda as a whole, the differences between them are much, much smaller than the similarities in terms of the way they want to promote dirty jobs, trash the environment, roll back regulations of all kinds, unleash wall street to go back to the kind of wild speculation that caused the crash to begin with, just in area after area we found they really all support

the same programs with very minor differences. >> that's certainly the point the president's team is going to make. they try to turn this election into a choice. i guess i wonder about the one downside risk. it seems to me gingrich, even for romney for the reasons you say presents right opportunities for the president, but especially if gingrich gets the nomination. there seems to be a risk of a possibility of a third party rising up to be problematic for president obama. what do you think about that? >> i think if you see a third party, it depends on who it is. right now with ron paul being basically even with romney in the polls, there's been a question all along whether he'd mount a third party campaign. hard to say who that would split the most. >> ron paul will be on me"meet e press" this sunday. governor, why don't i bring you in. speaking clearly from your point of view as a democrat, what do

you think of newt gingrich's rise in the polls? which is now significant, so it's not one of these sort of -- we've seen these rise and falls that have been, you know, pretty predictable. this seems like something's happening here. >> well, clearly he's formidable in the republican primaries. i know barack obama. i've known him a long time. he's a competitor. a lot of elections are decided in the last ten days. i think it's very important for americans to look at issues, especially issues of character and leadership, and i don't think anybody's going to top barack obama. he's our president today and tomorrow. >> all right. since eric is with "rolling stone," we should turn from politics to music. you have chosen adele as the number-one album of the year. i couldn't agree with you more. my daughters love her. she's fantastic. why was she the choice? >> i think she's a pretty clear choice. not only just the biggest album of the year but it appealed to everybody -- moms, kids, people who don't even by albums bought this album. there's a reason for that, and

that's not only is it great music but it's her great voice. >> it's incredible, isn't it? >> incredible. >> i have to say to me these problems she's had -- the al sbum great. the problems she's had getting out on tour, some of these -- i have this kind of awful ominous sense that this is somebody who's going to make one great album and blow the voice out, never hear from her again. starting to get a little nervous. >> yeah. i think we'll see her the beginning of the year. they're saying she's healing and will be on tour in the spring. >> where did she come from? she sort of came out of the blue. my daughters listen to everything in the car. i have to say av i actually connected with this and thought this is an incredible voice. >> that's partially why she connected with people, because they hadn't heard from her before, her music doesn't sound like it's come out of a pop factory or done for commercial purposes. people respond to that. >> mostly i can't tell them

apart. >> seems like female singers in particular, alanis morrisette or amy winehouse, suddenly they're absolutely everywhere and they make one album that's indelible and then disappear. >> that will be a question with adele. everybody is rooting for her. everybody wants more. >> eric bates, thank you very much. governor pat quinn, thank you, as well. good luck today in washington. all the best to you. next, new details about the iraqi politician who many say lured the united states into a decade-long war. more "morning joe" in just a moment. [ woman ] my boyfriend and i were going on vacation,

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the united states government made the major mistake by trying to justify the removal of saddam hussein to make it on the basis of weapons of mass destruction. that reason to go and help us remove saddam hussein, we did not call for the invasion. president bush decided, no, let us go to war ourselves. >> 36 past the hour. that was ahmed chalabi, president of the iraqi national

congress, in a recent interview criticizing the u.s. invasion of iraq. joining us now, "60 minutes" producer and author of "arrows of the night: ahmed chalabi's long journey to triumph in iraq," nice to see you. >> thank you. >> say hello to everyone over there for me. >> i will. we miss you at cbs. >> but i have a job. >> how fascinating that chalabi is criticizing the united states for invading iraq based on weapons of mass destruction claims that he helped fan the flames of throughout 2002 by bringing discredited sources to the u.s. government. >> it's an amazing turnabout. >> it was his continue cost of goods sold -- it was his concocti concoction. >> he made the case and now he

is one of the most vocal critics of the united states. >> curveball, is that the code name of the guy -- >> curveball was one of the lead defectors, but that actually was not chalabi's. he came up with four or five other defectors, one of whom made it into colin powell's speech about mobile weapons of mass destruction. yeah. >> yeah. so now -- i mean, strange things happen in this man's career. when iraq fell, he was out of disfavor, and then he started moving back and forth. where is he right now? >> right now he's very close to the iranians. i mean, throughout his career he has had one sponsor after another. first it was the cia. he had a falling out with them. then it was congress and principally the republicans in congress. then it was the neoconservatives, richard pearl, paul wolfowitz, doug fife. and the plan was to turn iraq over to him and the iraqi national congress after the

invasion. and president bush wouldn't go for that. president bush thought the iraqis should decide for themselves. and when chalabi got this close to realizing his dream, it fell through at the end, and he increasingly turned toward iran. and they're now his big benefactor. >> amazing piece of history. you talk in the book about a lot of those neocons you mentioned, wolfowitz, they were meeting with chalabi on day two of the bush administration literally talking about how we would wage a campaign to invade iraq and install chalabi. it does put in context a lot of the arguments that this was something that was in the works far long time before 9/11. >> it's true. they never envisioned originally invading iraq. chalabi did not want american boots on the ground. he wanted american planes in the air, and he wanted the

administration to back a rebel army led by him that would be positioned in the north in kurdistan, in the south in bazrah, and he would move toward baghdad. and they started planning this in the mid-90s, and it reached its pinnacle right after the election of bush. and he, you know, systematically courted is centers of power in washington. when he came to washington in the '90s, he knew nobody. the cia hated him, the state department opposed him, no constituency in washington, no army in baghdad, no popular support in baghdad, and he systematically worked the leaders of power in washington until -- >> who was his first big sponsor? who got him through the door at the cia? >> well, the cia came knocking on his door. up until 1990, the u.s. blocked out the iraqi opposition, thought they were all

instruments of iran. with saddam's invasion of kuwait in 1991, the cia said -- the first president bush said we have to rethink this. let's develop an iraqi opposition. they compiled the list of exiles. he was one of many on it. they called him up, met him at hit house in london and realized this is one smart dude. >> but at the same time, they knew by that point that this guy was a con artist, that he had fallen out of favor the cia. it was no secret that he was sort of a scammer and that he wasn't, in fact, the leader of the iraqi opposition in exile that he put himself out to be. >> in 1989, he was convict offend bank fraud in jordan, and the cia thought that was a terrific asset. they thought that, you know, they could funnel money through this guy and everyone would think it was his own ill-gotten gains rather than a covert cia operation. so they knew what they were getting into. and the mistake they made was

they thought chalabi would be their asset. but he is so brilliant this guy, he's the smartest man i've ever met, he made them, our cia, his asset, and he -- >> wow. >> -- completely hijacked a covert operation for his own vision and his own ambition. >> so his own criminality, though, was seen as a positive asset. >> by the cia, absolutely. >> guy could run for governor of illinois. >> joe! there you go. >> and he won't get 14 years. >> exactly. so what happens next for chalabi and his sponsor, iran? >> well, you know, iran's got problems of its own. iran's interest is to keep iraq weak and to destabilize the nations around iraq and mess with saudi arabia and our interests there. and they're using -- and chalabi is working with them to destabilize bahrain to create problems in saudi arabia. >> is he unpopular at home now, chalabi? >> well, he is -- you know, he

wanted to be a man of history. he wanted to be prime minister of iraq. he's one member of parliament, one of 325. but he is scheming to get to the top. >> rich bonin, the book is "arrows of the night." in one sentence, can you tell us what the life and times of a "60 minutes" producer are like? or should i just let your bloodshot eyes tell the story? >> my eyes are bloodshot but my blood boils. it's a great job. >> it's a great job. they work you hard, though. >> they do. it's the best and the worst. >> the most fascinating thing. >> thank you is so much. >> "biz before the bell" next on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] notebooks,

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okay. time now for "business before the bell." we of got some new numbers out. cnbc's managing editor tyler mathison live at cnbc headquarters. good morning. >> hey, mika. how are you? the numbers look pretty good. they were the unemployment claims, the new claims for fresh unemployment benefit, and they were down about 23,000 in the most recent week to about 381,000. it used to be that any number below 400,000 was a sign that the economy was expanding. now with the larger workforce, that threshold may be higher. but p 381,000, lowest figure for those unemployment claims in nine months, is certainly a good thing. and just in the past few minutes, after those numbers came out, mika, at 8:30, the dow future, the s&p futures shot a lot higher, indicating that the

market is off -- will be off to the races when it opens this morning at 9:30. >> so tyler, tell me, are we going to be hearing an hour from now that somehow these numbers are skewed -- >> not that good. >> -- and the worst possible because people gave up, et cetera? these numbers are so hard to follow. >> how can you spin them badly? >> this is what we all do at cnbc every day. we mull these numbers, chew them over, bring people in. i am sure -- i haven't been able to look at the report or consulted with steve liesman or any economists -- i'm sure there would be some people who would see some dark at the end of the tunnel here. but certainly when you put these numbers together with last week's numbers, whether the unemployment rate came down because people gave up or not, the trend in job growth and unemployment claims does seem to be rather more positive than it has been. it may be -- it may be that part of the explanation is that more

people were able to secure some temporary jobs in the retail sector as we go into the holidays. i know they say they adjust for seasonal factors and holiday hiring is a big one of those, but you just wonder how good their seasonal adjustments are. and you certainly know that people are out there taking jobs at the best buys and the macy's and the nordstroms and elsewhere. >> already -timer. thank you very much. >> thank you, tyler. >> good to see you guys. >> barnicle has one of those jobs. >> lady shoe department in order stroms for the holidays? >> just for the holidays, and right feet only. >> coming up, the best of late night. >> i don't even know what that means. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about fees.

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our top secret invisible spy plane ended up in iran? how did that happen? >> u.s. officials tell nbc news that cia operators on the ground were flying the drone when it suddenly veered out of control and headed deep into iran. >> that brings us to our new segment, "i'm no expert, but that sounds like [ bleep ]." we were minding our own business, you know, flying our drones and, you know, spying on

the afghans and all of a sudden ayn gent nutmeg, the cia cat, jumps on the control and is like, meow, and then the whole thing went whew! >> messages left on rod blagojevich's answering machine. hey, it's conrad murray. 14 years? i didn't get that for murder. number nine, have your hairstylist condition after each delousing. eight, do you want a cell closer to the espresso machine or jacuzzi? seven. congratulations. i heard you're going to vail. oh, wait. never mind. number six, hey, it's your new cellmate. do you like the top or the bottom? number five -- >> talking about bunks in the cell. >> sorry. i must have the wrong number. i was trying to reach todd blagojevich. four, it's dave. tonight's top ten list is about you. nice work. number three, it's 2011.

why do you still have an answering machine? two, this is president obama. i'm granting you a full pardon. no, i'm just screwing with you. and number one message left on rod blagojevich's answering machine, its's the warden. the inmates are watching how much you want for your seat. >> there you go. the employee of the month is... spark card from capital one.

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welcome back to "morning joe." as we said earlier, mike, playing the music today the -- believe it or not, god, it has been 31 years since the passing of john lennon just right up the street. >> about 15 blocks from here. >> yeah, yeah. what did you learn today? >> i learned that iowa this afternoon and for the iowa caucuses, new hampshire primary, i'm going to be spending most of my time in a car with mike barnicle. >> that's problematic. >> sorry. >> swearing like sailors, drinking like fish, like two old jewish married ladies. >> i have no idea what that was all about. be barnicle? >> rick perry apparently thinks gays serving in the military is like number one of our problems. amazing. >> he just made up a war on