e-mails now calling him a scary old lady. mike, do you have any response? >> yeah, i'm tired of seeing your abuse occurs here and i'm of watching you, willie, do a show that i've been doing from a jack in the box in california. >> "morning joe" starts now. . they want me to announce that i won't run as an independent candidate, and i won't do that. because of if the republicans pick the wrong person, i would, in fact, seriously consider running. but because of the fact that the republicans are upset and because of the fact that i refuse to give up the possibility of running as an independent candidate, i've decided to cancel the debate. >> okay. so the -- it's off. it's off. >> it's off. >> are you guys okay with that? >> we're working through it. >> sigh.

>> good morning, everybody. it's wednesday -- >> there's a mourning process. >> i wanted to see it. it's wednesday, december 14th. welcome to "morning joe." we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. you look quite nice, mike. >> you're looking good for three days in a row. >> what's going on there? ann's gotten through to you. probably doesn't have socks on, or he's wearing the same tube socks he's had on for the past three days. msnbc and "time" magazine political analyst mark haleprin is here. such a diplomat you are. and visiting professor at nyu, harold ford jr. >> good morning. >> good morning. >> and willie is in los angeles this morning. how's that schedule working for you, willie? >> it's not working that well. but somebody's got to be out here preparing for the california primary, june 5th. not far away. closer than you think. >> much closer. and willie, always planning

ahead. >> by the way, i love -- it was a question of how donald trump was going to get out of this debate. once there were only two people left, i had bets on different scenarios i thought it would be "apprentice" related. he's doing the right thing from a journalistic standpoint. >> he is. >> true. >> proving once again donald trump as we say, willie, the abraham lincoln of our time. lincolnian. i'm a small government guy, i don't like regulations, but i will tell you what. >> now what? >> after dodging cars over the past two or three years with mainly, i'll just say mainly teenage girls, teenage boys used to scare the hell out of me driving, it's teenage girls now that swerve over into lanes and i look and they're like this. ban on cell use by drivers is being urged. i'm not saying it's got to be done, but you know what? they have got to seriously curb the abuses. because, you know, i am much

more frightened when i get my kids into my car today than i've ever been before. again, it's these days it's not teenage boys that make me slow down and pull over to the other side of the road, it's when i see teenage girls shooting out of parking lots looking down like this and i'm sure i'm going to be killed -- >> it's working moms you should be worried about. >> it's boys too, no doubt about it, but it is a clear and present danger. you know one-third of the -- according to this article, one-third of many people died this past year from these sort of distractions as died from alcoholism -- i mean died from drunk drivers. >> try this. next time you are stopped at a red light at an intersection, you're there, you're waiting for the lights to change, count the number of people who go through the light in front of you who were on the cell phone. >> okay. >> when they come through the light. it's astounding, it's at least half.

at least half. >> here's the argument, joe, about government and how much government should be involved. but let's be really transparent and keep it real, or at least i will. how many people at this table has done it? >> what do you mean? in the past. >> who hasn't ever talked on the phone while driving? >> i do on the speakerphone. >> have you ever had the receiver to your ear while driving? >> no. >> barnicle, you're the only person at this table who has never done it. >> i'm afraid to. >> i've done it, but i don't anymore. just stop. this isn't perry mason. >> no, i'm just saying -- >> this is not perry mason. i have changed -- i have changed my habits now, and i talk on a speakerphone. i do not text while i'm driving. and i don't fumble around and put it up to my ear anymore. >> so you use the system in your car that allows you to talk while you're -- >> yeah, exactly. >> okay. and those are expensive. harold, have you ever done it? >> i used to. i don't do it any longer. i put it on speaker or use the blue tooth.

>> willie does two phones when he's driving. two phones, that's how busy he is. >> drives with the knees. >> i confess to having done it. but could you imagine losing your child or a member of your family because somebody was looking down sending a reply to an e-mail. it's not worth it. i think this is a good step in the right direction. >> it happens all the time. >> i agree. >> speaking of directions. there's a new direction in iowa. >> there is. we should take a look at this. >> this is getting tight. >> this is where i go forward with it. >> it's getting tight out there. >> it is getting tight. >> this natural tightening that mark haleprin talked about. >> new polling this morning providing more evidence that newt gingrich is losing some traction in iowa. yesterday we showed you two polls suggesting that the former speaker's lead may be slipping. and a new public policy poll is giving new weight toing this tracking. showing gingrich in a statistical tie with texas congressman ron paul. gingrich dropped five points at the beginning of the month while paul gained four points in the same time period, romney is in

third, remaining steady at 16% support among iowa caucus goers. >> let's keep those numbers up really quickly. there are some people in the past have bashed ppp polling. i have to say this every time we put the polling up, over the last two cycles, it's been more accurate than most main line polls. and in this case, you know, mark haleprin, you said there was going to be a natural tightening. 20 -- i would not be surprised if iowa ends up 20, 20, 20. with michele bachmann at 15% as a real toss-up there. >> what's crazy. first of all, it's hard to poll the caucus because you don't know who will turn out. you look at those numbers, what separates rick santorum from newt gingrich is a small enough margin that if someone can get momentum, this could be a bigger jumble than 20%, 20%, 20%, you could have everyone there with a

decent share of the vote. first and fifth could be pretty small. >> and there were articles, there was an article in the "wall street journal" this morning talking about actually we bring his name up again for the first time in about a week, jon huntsman. said what is happening now could not have been written out better by jon huntsman if he had tried to have this sort of grouping up. you have ron paul rising, you have newt gingrich rising, you have mitt romney staying around 20%. this is a war of attrition that allows jon huntsman to get his feet, to get a good result in new hampshire, and survive through south carolina and florida. >> well, yeah. the longer and it's every day now, it's a sustained conflict between gingrich and romney. the longer that occurs, huntsman's chances, ron paul's chances would improve in a tightened field like that. and in the former speaker's case, i think he's the story. he's the big story in that party.

and it's clearly not a case of familiarity breeds contempt, but breeds unease among even the most rabid of caucus goers or primary voters. just unease. >> i've got to say this, harold, and we're going to be going to a national nbc news "wall street journal" poll in a minute that shows real divisions in the republican party. not bad divisions, but real divisions. and it breaks down this way. if you're a conservative nationally, you're going to support newt gingrich. if you're a moderate, nationally, right now you're supporting mitt romney. and that is the dynamic nationally that's taking place. not so much in iowa and new hampshire where they're getting closer looks, but just as far as the broad brush. there's no doubt, mitt romney's going to have to start polling some conservative voters over, or he's not going to win this

nomination. >> i would agree. the question i would have for you following this, knowing this, living it, having practiced it, is there a third group? is there a group in the republican primary across the country? across the country that has to answer the question, who's most electable? if you look back, and mark has certainly a grasp of this. if you look back four years ago, eight years ago, 12 years ago, this time of the year, there comes a point in the party who is not in the white house's primary where they begin to ask the question, who is most likely to win? john kerry and howard dean back in 2004, dean was surging, john kerry surged near the end, and people said this is the guy that can likely win. george w. bush the same way in 2000. do republicans begin to ask themselves the question? >> they may. however -- >> >> at that point, maybe a huntsman others will emerge. my second question, are we in a two-man race? >> no, we're not in a two-man

race. ron paul is of all of the candidates this year, and i think the person that's shown the most impressive growth. if you were looking at candidates like you're looking at companies, it's ron paul, 8%. 10%, 11%, 13%, 15%, he's up to 20% in iowa, in new hampshire, in some polls where you have a lot of other people darting up and down. but willie geist, one of the interesting things that republicans understand is every time you have people in the national press talking about how you need to be wise enough to vote for the electable guy, bad things happen in the general election. in 1976, the smart move was ford over reagan. the moderate ford, the moderate ford lost.

in 1980, howard baker was the smart pick, george h.w. bush was smart pick. feared howard baker the moderate, ronald reagan got elected and won. you can fast forward to 1996, bob dole, the smart pick, bob dole lost. 2008, john mccain, the smart pick, john mccain lost. the reality is when republicans nominate moderates, more often than not, moderates lose. >> yeah, and to harold's point about electability and to your point here, joe, exactly, that new nbc poll we had out yesterday shows newt gingrich would win a primary. and this is something we've been saying whether it's rick perry on top or michele bachmann on top could win a primary, but what happens when they go to a general? newt gingrich may get to a primary, but loses by ten points in a general. and according to the new poll

where romney has a better shot at beating barack obama. therein lies the dilemma for republican voters. >> and you wonder -- >> conservative, or the guy who can win the general? >> and to harold's question, it's whether or not they're actually thinking about that. >> this may be, if i'm jon huntsman, my argument is, i'm the third way. you have a conservative, a person that george will and erick erickson called the most conservative in the race and somebody that everybody thinks is electable in a general election. >> he's been doing the rounds. he was on "the view" yesterday, several other networks doing interviews as if he has not missed a beat. and he's not looking at the polls, keeping his head down and moving forward. let's look into the numbers that willie was talking about. the tightening in iowa comes as "wall street journal" polling suggests mitt romney's main obstacle lies with the primary voters. the poll shows that gingrich

topping the republican presidential field with 40% support. the highest percentage any republican candidate has received in the race so far. mitt romney is 17 points behind with 23% support. however, the polling shows romney has a better chance against president obama in a general election match-up. head to head, mitt romney and barack obama are in a statistical tie while gingrich trails the president by 11 points. when president obama is up against a generic republican candidate, he loses the match up by two points. that may be a reflection of the frustration within the ranks with that majority of voters calling the republican field average and 27% calling the candidates weak. the poll also sheds light into why romney may be losing ground among gop voters. 70% of republicans call themselves conservatives, but only 29% believe romney fits that category. 57% believe newt gingrich checks that box off.

and as mitt romney tries to win over that base of voters, he is going after gingrich, questioning his conservative credentials. in an interview with the "washington post," the former massachusetts governor said he's been an extraordinarily unreliable leader in the conservative world. not 16 or 17 years ago, but in the last two to three years and during the campaign. the number of times he's moved from one spot to another has been remarkable. i think he's shown a level of unreliability as a conservative today. >> and the problem with that argument coming from mitt romney. jon huntsman can make that argument, michele bachmann can make that argument, ron paul can make that argument. the problem that mitt romney has when he makes that argument is that when he says something like that, a newspaper digs up a quote yesterday from 2002 this decade where he bragged about being a progressive. >> i saw that. >> therein lies the great

challenge for mitt romney to say i'm the true blue conservative leader. >> and again, that's the question harold is asking. how does the base make its decisions? do they make it on conservativeness? or do they make it on ability to win? >> that's one of the questions they'll have to answer. i understand joe's point about conservative versus nonconservative, or the moderate versus the conservative. but if you think about george w. bush in 2000, he ran his campaign on being a compassionate conservative, not leaving any child behind. so he tried to position himself as that. on the second note, that ron paul, one of the reasons he's been so consistent in the polls, i was with a prominent republican yesterday that outlined the thesis that each of the candidates have to have. ron paul has been the one candidate with the most consistent thesis throughout. he's a libertarian, a proud one, taken on the fed, certain policies, he's not wavered at all. if you look at romney, a record

that's mixed, huntsman, he's worked for president obama, he's had questions he would have to answer in a primary. paul is the one candidate throughout his time in politics who has had -- >> he's consistent. >> one-note pony in terms of his thesis for being -- i don't like it, but it's a one-note pony. >> and ron paul, he's never going to be president of the united states. >> okay. >> something else about ron paul. he's been on television with paid media. and even though presidential politics is not dominated by television ads by the way most campaigns are, paul has had tv advertising in iowa and elsewhere to himself for the most part. rick perry's on tv now. but we've not seen the kind of advertising we're about to see in the last couple of weeks which i think will equalize the standing. >> the "wall street journal" writes about mitt's moment. and we're going to read an excerpt. but one part, though, is fascinating. at the beginning, where he talks about newt gingrich leading in

the polls but he said the front-runner has lined up with ted kennedy, paul krugman, obama's campaign, and the pulitzer department, and assaulting mr. romney is a job killer for his role in private equity. and newt did this a couple of days ago sounding like paul krugman and ted kennedy. it's hard when i see republicans saying that newt's the conservative alternative, it baffles me. but there are other parts here. it's fascinating. about what mitt romney has done. talking about bain career being a success, at that he succeeded in rescuing the olympics he succeeded, the massachusetts governorship he succeeded, crafting bipartisan health care plan, he succeeded, subsidizing health care without breaking the bank, he didn't succeed. but he's got a pretty good track record of getting things done,

mitt does. >> and the gingrich comment about bain capital, which you reference there, has done something i thought was impossible. it has pushed george will into mitt romney's arms. he's so offended by what gingrich said. >> well, it is offensive. and mika, this is the thing that, again, baffles me about newt gingrich. a lot of people ask, why do you hate newt? i don't hate newt. i really don't. again, you tell me -- he's a great grandfather, his daughter was quoted yesterday saying my dad has been a consistent in our lives and he -- and we love each other and we're together and there are a lot of families that can't say that. so i'm glad to hear he's a good dad and, you know, he's a good grandfather. but the thing about newt that is so frustrating is how does he paint himself as a conservative alternative one day and say he's not going to attack mitt romney one day and the very next day he really does sound to us conservatives, who actually believe in the market, free

markets, he sounds like paul krugman and sounds like teddy kennedy, and sounds like people who don't believe in the wisdom of free markets. >> yesterday or the day before, i can't remember which morning, you all had senator mike lee on. i thought mika asked a pointed telling question. she asked the senator, give me an example of when you've come to meet with democrats to fi answers. it's funny, as we listen to -- the primaries happen and everyone sees this, primary voters reward a kind of loyalty and fidelity to a certain kind of philosophy. democrats do it, republicans do it. at the end of the day, independent voters are asking that bipartisanship and people find ways to work together. the question is whether or not -- the other question for republicans -- >> hold on a second. i have no idea what that has to do with what that has to do with what i'm saying. bring this in for a landing. i've got to tell you, somebody that sounds like paul krugman in

the republican primary would be the equivalent of somebody talking about jack kempf in the democratic primary. it doesn't make sense. >> i think voters in primaries voters have to make a decision about electability, have to making a decision about conservative philosophy, you adhere to that and about electability at some level. if the republicans want to nominate someone with the most fidelity and shows no willingness to reach out, they will lose. and as a democrat, i accept that. obama ran on transcending, george w. ran on transcending. >> that's not true. hold on a second. listen, if paul krugman -- and this is what democrats don't understand. >> i don't agree with paul krugman either. >> if the ideas of paul krugman are the ideas of the republican nominee, i'm not voting for the republican nominee. >> and paul krugman won the democratic nomination. that's not my point. >> newt gingrich has adopted the views of paul krugman on the -- >> i'm not defending newt

gingrich. >> on the creative construction of the -- i'm saying democrats will lecture republicans about electability. no, what i'm saying here is if my candidate adopts the vup poi viewpoints of paul krugman and teddy kennedy, i'm not voting for that guy, i don't care who it is. i will find somebody else to vote for. that's all i'm saying. and so, yeah, it's a difficult decision for republicans to make. >> yeah, look -- >> newt is all over the place. >> all over the place and leave personal aside. you've said some things that people have completely misconstrued -- >> and it's hurting me. >> no, it hasn't. my point is you're not talking about the personal, you're talking about his professional life. what i would add to that, we know what viewpoint i come from, it's not whether or not he's truly conservative, it's whether

or not he can be truly trusted to speak what he truly believes. because he goes back and forth on everything. he's got problems with hypocrisy. >> ever since he's been in congress, he's a man of the moment. >> yeah. >> he forgets what he said yesterday, it doesn't matter, it's what he says now. he has a thousand different positions on a thousand different issues. and he thinks the american people have collective amnesia. >> and if people think mitt romney has that problem, they need to look and read about newt gingrich just professionally, just politically. >> again, though. >> to be fair. mitt romney in 2002 bragged about being a progressive. >> there's no comparison between the two. >> i don't know how you do that. >> he was dealing with the massachusetts legislature. >> mitt romney is -- doing just fine. >> we have two flawed candidates when it comes to conservatism. there is no doubt.

coming up, you know what we need? >> all right, we need to go to a break. we're in trouble. >> we need mckinnen. he'll be here, co-founder of no labels. this is incredible. can i have that? >> yeah, i bought it for you. >> larry sent it down. so if larry sent it down, you know it's not for me. here you go. >> thank you, i love it! >> we also have moderator of "meet the press." bill karins has a look at the forecast. >> good morning, everyone, on this wednesday, it's umbrella weather in many spots of the country, not too much snow or ice, just rain, we're watching it come down now. ohio, bring the umbrella, cleveland, detroit, columbus, cincinnati, even chicago dealing with some rain. farther to the north, a little bit of wintery mix up around duluth, but green bay and minneapolis, it's a damp morning with some showers around. heavier rain, the quad cities, kansas city heavier rain, and down to the desert southwest,

our big storm is ending after an inch of rain in phoenix and a foot of snow in the mountains of arizona. today's forecast, dry today from d.c. to new york, but you won't see a ton of sunshine. pittsburgh, and erie, it's the middle of the country with showers maybe even a few thunderstorms. that system heads east, but there's no cold air behind it. we continue a very, very mild weather pattern. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. wow. it's a great hd tv... shhh. don't speak. i'll just leave you two alone. [ male announcer ] the big christmas event is here. 8 a.m. saturday. with our lowest prices of the season on select toys, electronics and more... the only stop for last minute gifts is walmart.

we put together for you something tonight called "60 minutes highlight of the night." i hope you enjoy it. >> we've got 75% of the people in the country think it's headed in the wrong direction. 75%.

>> highlight of the night, ladies and gentlemen. >> time now to take a look at the morning papers. at 28 past the hour, the "new york times" says e-mails from 2008 appear to show that rupert murdoch's son james was told details of the hacking scandal at "news of the world" the tabloid. the e-mails were released yesterday by a parliamentary panel. james says he opened the e-mails on his blackberry, but did not read them. >> did not read them, but responded to them. >> don't act like you don't do that. >> this is big problems. so anyway -- here's one from our parade of papers. birmingham news says a new space venture is coming to huntsville, alabama. paul allen announced he's starting a company there's that going to build a giant plane to launch rockets into space for satellites, cargo, and eventually tourism. the project puts allen in competition with british billionaire richard branson and amazon founder who are working

on their own commercial space enterprises. and of course, huntsville, alabama, willie, has long been the space central in the south. >> it sure has. i'm going to wait until they work out the kinks on the rich guy airlines, second generation of those flights, i think. let's go down to d.c. for some politico with mike allen with a look at the morning playbook. good morning. >> good early morning, willie. >> it is awfully early out here. the obama campaign, jim messina laying ining out the path to vi. how are they going to do it? >> well, willie, this was fascinating, at the dnc yesterday, they brought in reporters and showed color maps of different ways obama could win. and the reason they did this unusual behind the curtain tour was to convince people that the loss of any one state is not a disaster. he put up five maps, only one of them had president obama winning

florida. only one of them had president obama winning virginia. so his idea is to show there's lots of paths. one of them they call the expansion path. they all start with the states that senator john kerry won in 2004, and you add a couple to win. if you add florida, you win. by yourself. if you add arizona, you win by yourself. if you add what they call the south path, that would be north carolina and virginia, you win. there's western path, which would be picking up a couple of smaller states at nevada, new mexico, arizona. you would need iowa too. so the idea here is to put a number of states in play and any one of them could add up to the 270 electoral votes you need. >> mike, the president, of course, cleaned up in 2008 in those swing states. not doing as well anymore among independent voters.

there was a poll last week from gallup and usa today showing he's slipping in those swing states. how concerned are they right there? >> yeah, well, that's a great point, willie. the other way to say this is that the president could lose several states that he lost before and still win it. the western states would be colorado, nevada, new mexico, and you would need iowa too. so his idea is that you look at these bad polls, look at these bad swing states, but he's going to be able to say to his supporters, keep calm and carry on. >> and also enthusiasm up among republican voters. we'll see what happens. mike allen, thanks so much. >> yeah, they say they've already had a million conversations with obama supporters. >> thanks, mike. still ahead, in past years, the award has gone to mark zuckerberg, ben bernanke, president obama, we'll learn "time" magazine's person of the year. financial advice is everywhere.

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some more headlines to report this morning. >> well, i've got a headline for you. >> live at capitol hill. >> this fenway book. oh, my lord -- >> i want one. >> fenway park, 100 years.

>> it's great. >> if you love baseball -- >> i love fenway park. >> you get these by going to fenway100.com? >> fenwaypark100.com. >> that's a great christmas gift. >> i've taken care of christmas gifts for about five people in my house. >> now to these headlines, you can expect a new round of finger pointing on capitol hill today after another partisan vote pushed the two sides even farther apart. late yesterday, the house passed an extension of the payroll tax cut, that's a good thing, president obama has been calling for, that's wonderful. because they could use that right now. >> and i love the republican -- >> i love the republican version of it too. because it actually creates jobs. >> you can agree on helping out the middle class, right? unequivocally without any strings attached? >> by creating jobs. >> you could agree on that without any strings attached, couldn't you? >> well, well -- if you call strings attached actually having a bill that will create jobs

unlike the actual payroll tax cut by attaching a jobs-creating program, that is a good deal. >> you could only agree on that with strings attached? >> no, it's a jobs creating bill. >> i understand, my question -- >> harold, is this keystone pipeline not the best chance for creating jobs in this bill? >> i'm publicly on record supporting this project for two reasons. number one, to joe's point, i think it creates jobs, number two, it reduces our dependence on middle east oil, which gives a national security component to it. some of that's why they attach them. this happens in politics, it happens in policymaking. i hope they get it worked out. i support the project and i was not altogether disappointed to see -- >> do you think democrats -- because you asked mike lee about compromising. do you think democrats in the

senate will be able to take up your call for compromise and compromise with these republicans that have come forward with a bill that most americans would support? >> i want to go back to my initial question, which i did not get an answer to, joe, and that is do you think that extending the payroll tax cut is a good idea that both sides could agree on without any strings attached? and i do agree with you about the keystone pipeline. why can't they just pass this? >> well, because -- >> without any strings attached. >> because maybe they want to create jobs in america. >> really? >> and maybe just maybe -- >> or do they just want to make sure this president fails no matter what? >> that is ridiculous. the suggestion, mika, that if republicans in the house don't do exactly what barack obama wants them to do given his, i think, terrible record on creating jobs that somehow that is "strings attached" and that is illegitimate, i think ignores

what the constitution of the united states says about who drafts legislation, who drafts bills. it is the house of representatives where these these programs start, and i know you disagree with the republicans in the house who want to create jobs with this project that democrat harold ford jr. and others -- >> i'm all for the pipeline plan, i just don't -- >> the obvious question, though, if they wanted to create jobs with the pipeline bill, why didn't they introduce it as a separate piece of legislation? >> yeah, so they could get both done. >> i don't know. >> but you know what, though, here's what's fascinating, mark haleprin, this president, we've all said it around the table is being very cynical about this pipeline job. it does two things, create jobs, number one, and number two, helps us become a little less dependent on middle east oil. we all know he's going to sign this bill the day after he gets reelected if he gets reelected. do we think he's going to veto

it? >> it's not going to get to his desk because it won't get out of the senate. we could have a government shut down. >> it won't get to his desk because harry reid or somebody said always pocket vetoes everything. republicans passed a slew of bills and harry reid kills them in the senate. >> the republicans -- >> reality for next year, harry reid's going to leave the senate, john boehner's going to leave the house, barack obama's going to be president. if they can't work together, political gamesmanship on both sides. >> it's sad that the senate democrats kill every bill that republicans push. can't they compromise? >> yeah, sure. must-read opinion pages coming up. >> can't we all get along? >> can't we all? all energy development comes with some risk,

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on the all-new volkswagen passat. the 2012 motor trend car of the year. ♪ and i think it's gonna be a long, long time ♪ welcome back to "morning joe." time now for the must-read opinion pages. we'll start with the "wall

street journal." dr. brzezinski, he's got a book coming out next month. as china rises, a new u.s. strategy. a great power that allows itself to be preoccupied only with the problems today is likely to end up mired in the conflicts of yesterday. a great power must be guided by a longer range strategic vision. for the united states, the central challenge over the next decades will be used to revitalize itself accommodating china's rising global status. a successful u.s. effort to enlarge the west, making it the world's most stable and democratic zone would seek to combine power with principle. a cooperative, larger west extending from north america and europe through eurasia, all the way to japan and south korea would enhance the appeal of the west east core principles for other cultures thus encouraging

the gradual emergence of a universal, democratic, political culture. >> that's taken from foreign affairs article that he's going to be published in january and february. his book comes out, though, in january. >> late january, "strategic vision." he'll be coming to new york and doing events here. i look forward to hearing from him on that. >> is he doing kimmel? >> i'm not sure. >> i'm sure he is. >> "daily show." has he been on the "daily show?" >> i think he has. colbert or the daily show. i'll have to ask my dad. >> "strategic vision" is the name of the book, right? >> yes. >> i'm going to order it. >> erick erickson, are we in a suicide pact? oh, boy. >> yes, we are. >> and three weeks out is perhaps the perfect time for me to ask this, have conservatives entered a suicide pact? has the republican party as a whole done the same? we got a preview of mr. obama's

campaign strategy in kansas, he intends to make the moral case for government and wealth redistribution. the campaign will be about the morality of government presupposed by the belief that the free market has failed. scoff all you will that this will be successful, but know that lots of people in the great mass of the undecided are not so sure that obama isn't right. they may not like him, but they aren't sure the republicans are the people who can fix the problems. the reason to me is rather simple, we do not have anyone on our side making the moral case for the free market. >> mark haleprin, that's what i was talking about yesterday. what i was talking about today. there is not anybody making the case, other than ron paul, of course, and maybe that's why he's going up, that nobody making the case for the power and wisdom of the free markets. they're afraid to, and you actually have newt channelling paul krugman and ted kennedy. >> and you think about rick

perry who entered this race saying i'm going to run on my jobs record. that's what i'm going to run on. look what he's advertising on now? war on religion, moral -- issues of morality. >> well, and by the way, going after gay marriage -- our gays in the military when even among the conservative republican caucus goer in iowa, that's just not a big issue. >> right. >> you look at the percentages, that's not a big issue this year. >> think about the two leading candidates, mitt romney, newt gingrich, name some ideas they have about fixing the economy. they're not breaking through with that message. and i think erick erickson's argument speaks to, can someone in these last three weeks come forward? the two front-runners, with big ideas on the economy. >> who has? anybody, and this is open to anybody. who on -- and i believe barack obama doesn't have a big idea on

reviving the economy. i've said that. but who has come forward with the biggest idea on the republican side? to create new jobs in this campaign. beyond newt, beyond mitt, beyond anybody. who? >> rick perry in the flat tax, it's a big idea. >> rick perry and the flat tax. okay. >> i can't think of anyone. romney has a program to sustain and revitalize the economy, but i can't think of anybody with a jobs program. the argument that erick erickson is making, that george will refers to today, it's a logical argument on wall street and for shareholders of companies and it makes sense if you think about it long-term. it's an almost impossible argument to make politically today when everyone in this country lives in a town or city or a factory or a store or a series of jobs have disappeared overseas. it's politically almost impossible to make that argument. although it's a good argument.

>> steve jobs and isaacson book, jobs makes the point or suggested he made the point that president obama, one of the challenges he faces is when he builds plants in asia that you have 25,000 to 30,000 engineers at work in and around his plants. he says in asia, these people are trained ph.d. engineers, they have the basic training. you don't hear any of these candidates talking about the next generation of jobs. i'm give rahm emanuel some credit. he's doing interesting things in chicago to try to provide people with the skill set for the next generation of middle class jobs. no one on the republican side is talking about obama's answers to infrastructure spending and building which is an important point, but he's not articulated in a clear, powerful way yet. >> is it a fair question, joe? because clearly if it was so easy to come up with a jobs plan that was purely effective and put this country back on track, that would be done. isn't it somebody who can galvanize a team that can compete with the team that's in place right now and has energy

and the philosophy and the sense of innovation and the self-awareness to do the job? >> it starts with ideas. it starts with ideas. what is your vision to restart america? well -- >> you've got to have a mandate, put forward ideas and get the country behind you. >> well, listen, i've got to say -- you know, we can't -- we've got to go to break, we can't say it in 10, 15 seconds, but it's an attitude, a mind set. steve jobs had his mind set on apple. i haven't seen anybody with a mind set that i would like, which is -- >> this is america, and we're going to do it. >> this is america, we're going to win, and we're not going to war with missiles against china or india or any of our competitors, but make no mistake, we are going to war. and we are going to win that economic war in the 21st century. and we're going to do whatever it takes to be number one.

you start there, and you get all this other crap that politicians are talking about, shove it to the side and make it about america being number one again, and pursue that with anger, vigor, rage, focus, and trust me, you will find a way. i don't see that with any of these candidates. >> we're going to continue this, but first we have to go to a break because news you can't use is next. the employee of the month isss...

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oh, yes, please tell me it's time. willie, is it time? please. >> it is time, mika, at 3:55 in the morning in burbank, california. >> that's a perfect time. >> time for the news you cannot use. we're talking about ron paul who has drawn big crowds at town hall meetings, including one last night in the state of new hampshire. ron paul's live free or die message resinating in the granite state. talking about the fda, wants to get government out of your life, especially the fda and a hot issue in the state of new hampshire is pasteurized milk. farmers want to be able to sell it in supermarkets. right now they can only sell it in small batches. listen to the biggest applause line of the night in new hampshire. >> the drug companies, insurance companies, they're the big lobbyists and promote things. and they'll also prevent and would like to regulate all

alternative care and vitamins and keep people from it. my idea as a symbol of moving in a different direction, i would like to restore your right to drink raw milk any time you want to. >> uproar, huge applause for ron paul about restoring the right to drink raw milk, joe. >> we were -- we were just we were just talking about a message for job growth. put it on your bumper sticker. raw milk or die. i love it. >> ron paul. that's the case that farmers are making there. let us sell it. there's demand for it. let us sell it, we'll create jobs. raw milk for everybody. one more thing to get you in the holiday spirit. a community festival in peru where villagers get together and beat the living tar out of each other. it's just a festival, it's fun, it's tradition. >> looks like our green room. >> this is how they air public

grievances. look at the youngsters. this dates back to the incas. this is how they work it out as a village and get the family out in the backyard, beat each other up. everybody turns over a new leaf for the new year. >> we should do that in the senate. >> it happens in our office, except mika's the only one throwing punches. >> we slap, joe, that's our move. coming up next, the cofounder of no labels mark mckin nonwill be here. dad, you are not meeting him looking like that.

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i think people recognize that i'm not a partisan republican, that i'm someone who is moderate and my views are progressive, and that i'm going to go to work for our senior citizens, for people who have been left behind by urban schools that have not done the right job, they're going to vote for me regardless of the party label. >> okay. live look at the white house as the sun comes up. welcome back to "morning joe." mark haleprin and harold ford jr. are still with us. and joining the table, thank god, because i need to talk to him. co-founder of no labels and vice chairman of the consulting firm

hill and nolan strategies. mark mckinnon, and that was romney back when, alex? 2002. >> first of all, make congress work, not left, not right, forward. and no labels has come out with a -- i think just a fantastic plan to reform congress, which by the way has historically low approval ratings, we'll talk about the nbc wall street journal poll. but first, i've got to -- mark mckinnon, i asked you a question before, were you surprised that mitt romney in this decade was bragging about being progressive. your answer was depressing. >> i was not surprised. >> nothing these guys say surprises. >> and i agree with mark haleprin and you, i think that this thing could be a total train wreck. i think he could have a totally mixed result in iowa. you could have five or six

people coming in around 15%, 20%. i think ron paul could win iowa and even new hampshire. raw milk, i'm telling you. there's a message. >> the revolution, baby. >> imagine, and i think jon huntsman is very well poised to breakthrough new hampshire now given the unsettled nature of the race. >> i think michele bachmann. >> jon huntsman. >> i think michele bachmann could make a charge. >> i do too. >> in iowa. >> bachmann's surprising me she hasn't broken through more in iowa. >> i think santorum could breakthrough and perry too. i hate that ad, but i think it's got appeal to a core constituency, unfortunately. >> you look at these numbers, mika. gingrich 22%, paul 21%, romney, 16%, bachmann at 11%, i would not be surprised if all four of those were bunched in the high teens by the end. and what does that mean? that means -- >> including santorum? >> i think santorum could be up there. you could have five bunched in the mid teens.

i think this thing is wide open. and what does that mean? the "wall street journal" suggesting this morning, mark, that jon huntsman has a way forward, nate silver with the "new york times" suggesting the same thing last night. that jon huntsman -- again, a name we haven't mentioned in the past week because it's been about romney versus gingrich, but here comes this name again. >> well -- >> a way forward if this -- >> you have to keep focused on the strategy. ignore the national numbers and the mccain campaign. our strategy was an old meryl haggard song. huntsman has been very focused on new hampshire. 40% of the voters there this time are going to be independents voting. they're not voting in a democratic primary. all those independents will be voting. as you pointed out, he also has a true conservative message that appeals to conservatives there.

i think there's a possibility that could happen. and this is going to be fun to watch. >> yes, and like someone else who exceeded all expectations, huntsman has stayed above it all instead of joining the clown show. nobody's going to help him this time. >> mark, let me ask you if you agree with what was just said about national polling at this point. do you agree with mark that national polling doesn't matter? >> i think it matters in one way, which is that voters in these early states are sophisticated and they want to pick someone who can win, who is in the national discussion. i think national polls matter in that respect. gingrich is helped by national polls showing him way ahead, he's hurt by national polls showing him losing to the president. but for the most part it's all about right now iowa and new hampshire, south carolina and florida will kick in after that. >> i want to say something about gingrich. i heard you talking earlier what's going to happen with gingrich, and there's a lot of discussion about his record and being on one side or the other.

i don't care that's the issue. i think most people understand he's generally a conservative. they look back and he started the reeve luvolution, as you kn. i think people want predictability in a president. a lot of people didn't like george bush, but they knew what he was going to do. i think the predictability. they want somebody who is consistent and know what he's going to do. you don't want a president who is throwing grenades left and right. i think that's the problem longer term. >> and that's something that newt can control. he can control it by what he doesn't say more than what he does say. >> but -- >> that would involve discipline and self-awareness, joe. >> well, in theory what i'm saying is, it's the unforced errors that have always killed newt gingrich. but you brought up a great point about this quote regarding bain capital where he came out and channeled as the "wall street journal" was saying this morning, he channeled paul krugman, barack obama's

economics team, teddy kennedy. >> bob shrum. >> but newt blurted that out to punch back, and he took the hits from george will and everybody else saying he's not a conservative once again. and yet he didn't follow up on it. it was just out there, the damage was done, and then he just let it lie. >> all the negative and none of the positive of trying to drive a message. what's intriguing about bachmann, perry, huntsman, santorum, neither gingrich or romney are doing particularly well. neither of them -- >> of counting each other out. >> of driving a positive message or even a negative message against the other side. that leaves an opening for one of the other candidates to be in the same mix. on the other hand, if either gingrich or romney for the next six weeks drove a message every day, i think they'd be in a

strong position. >> i need to bring this name up again. jon huntsman. while this back and forth is going on, jon huntsman has done what you traditionally have had to do to win a state like new hampshire. he's done one town hall meeting after another, after another. he's been in living rooms across new hampshire, he's been in schoolhouses across new hampshire, he's been in town hall meetings across new hampshire day in, day out, day in, day out. i'm just wondering, doesn't that -- i mean, just so we've got the laws of physics, the laws of politics. mark mckinnon, are those laws going to be broken this year? is that type of activity once again going to be proven to be a path forward in new hampshire? >> it's happened before. it's exactly what mccain did. he got in his rv and ran around in new hampshire for a month. everybody else is out in iowa right now. huntsman is there alone, very

focused message, very focused campaign. and i think he's got a great chance to breakthrough, especially given the number of independents -- >> we've been looking at these national lineups, who could win gingrich versus romney versus obama, has anyone ever looked at anyone else? and whether huntsman could? >> well, huntsman's the sort of guy who i think would have the best chance in the general election. he's got appeal and he's a consistent conservative, and erick erickson has been drawing that out. when erick erickson drops the hammer like that, that sends a message to a lot of folks. >> and george will. when the "wall street journal" says huntsman has the most conservative economic program. when we started talking about him a month or two months ago, there were some people on the right going, he's a liberal, he worked for obama. now you've got erick erickson, you've got the "wall street journal," the most important

conservative publication on earth and george will, arguably the most important conservative columnist in america all three saying this guy is easily the most conservative candidate. >> well, this is a testament of sticking it out. this thing is a survivor contest. >> the one thing about mitt romney, whatever we want to say about him, he's been in every conversation since the race has started. he's faced competition from palin, cain, now to gingrich, it's always him versus the other people. you said the other day on the show and i imagine you standby it. you quoted a senior person in the romney campaign saying this challenge from gingrich in some ways is a positive thing. if romney's able to withstand and overcome gingrich, it strengthens him obviously heading into -- much like perry made him a better candidate. it'll be interesting to see over the next three weeks. huntsman has an opportunity and a path here. the question is whether or not romney can stand another great showdown against arguably the

swiftest thinker, and most creative thinker. >> and romney's gone through it. >> right now. this is the real threat. and the others have been, you know, teasers, but this is the real thing. >> you know, you said it the other day. >> for four years, mitt romney has been the presumed front-runner. the best thing to happen to mitt romney. this is a nightmare scenario for mitt romney. but as far as the expectations games, the best thing that can happen to mitt romney before the primaries and caucuses is for people to say he's not the front-runner anymore. suddenly if romney's in second place, instead of destroying the candidacy, people go, hey, he's sticking it out, toughing it out. >> he's still got to win in some of these early primaries. i think now he can survive losing maybe even 3 of the 4. i think it's possible. >> mitt romney can. >> three of the four, you think

he can move? >> he's got to win -- >> one person with the other three, you think he could lose? >> i think he could still survive. >> the reason that can happen now, and i don't think any of us could think that could happen three weeks ago. ron paul is a lifeline not only to mitt romney, but to jon huntsman and a lot of other people because you're going to have a lot of people bunched up between 15% and 20%. >> couple other things to get to. i do need you to settle a dispute between me and joe and i will not be filibustered. >> speaking of filibuster reform. >> speaking of filibuster reform. the nbc "wall street journal" poll shows that 42% say this 112th congress is one of the worst in the 222-year history of the country. 33% rate the congress as below average. mark in your article for the daily beast, your layout, your plan to fix congress. the biggest problem with congress is not the people, it's

outdated rules, procedures, and traditions that govern the institution and make it impossible for anything to get done. congress has become a place for even good, talented people get dragged down by a broken system. but if we change the rules of congress, we could make our government work again. if the next congress finds rules from the last congress to be outdated or unproductive, members can team up and start over, which is exactly what they ought to do. >> and let me start. this is no labels has, again, this book, and let me start w h with -- this is something huntsman's saying, you don't get your salary, congress, unless you give us a budget, unless you balance a budget. >> well, the budget drives everything. creates policy, right, and people in every day life. if you don't your job, you don't get paid, why should congress? this is a hammer to force congress to show up and do your job. >> you have people doing their jobs and not getting paid. >> exactly right.

>> i want to go to number two, this is something mika's been talking about for the past week. up or down vote on presidential appointments, and that's not happening. you've got a lot of presidential appointments being killed by the republican senate and democratic senates do it to republicans. >> the ambassador to el salvador who has been there for a year. >> it's up or down in 90 days. i was appointed to the broadcast board of governors by president bush for four years i couldn't get confirmed and finally just left. >> that's ridiculous. >> i mean, whether you're republican or democrat, you've got to fill the jobs and give the team a chance. >> and the democrats filibustered you for four years despite the fact you wear a scarf. >> that's right. well, there's -- >> you've got a lot of people that would love this in the middle. filibuster reform. talk about it. >> well, you know, i kind of defer to harold on this one. if you're going to filibuster something, you ought to be on

the floor and filibuster -- >> as someone who never filibustered. >> i think the most powerful one is the no budget, no pay. >> i love that. >> joe and i could appreciate that. we were not obstructionists here, but we understand congress, there are americans who go to work every day whose salaries are being cut. and for congress, i served there, joe served there, i respect republicans and democrats, if you can't get a budget done, you shouldn't get paid. >> i may love this idea the best. i want the prime minister's hour before parliament every week in america. i love this idea. talk about it. >> well, it's like they do in britain. you get the president and/or members of the cabinet on a monthly basis to come before the congress, come before the senate and have an exchange of ideas. and if you're going to be an obstructi obstructionist, let people see it in a full view. >> that would be fantastic. >> like if they sent joe biden down.

>> we need to import, though, the speaker of the parliament -- order. order. >> yeah. >> i love this, though. we pushed a lot of people to do this after the gaby giffords shooting. and it was one of the better behaved congresses at the state of the union address. bipartisan seating, talk about it. >> it's much easier to demonize people if you don't know them or talk to them. this is a simple step and one done at the last state of the union. but it's just -- if you get to know the members of congress, evan bayh who was at this press conference yesterday to announce this reform, i think he was in the senate for 14 years and three times had meetings with members of the other party. that was stunning. and i don't think members now literally don't meet with other members at all. there used to be caucuses, monthly lunches, there's a series of steps here that would encourage members of the opposite party to meet on a

regular basis with each other so they know each other. >> one final thing. harold and i working in congress for quite some time and we're deeply offended at this. >> uh-oh. >> make members come to work. what are you talking about? >> it's pretty radical. >> show up? >> you're getting out of bounds. >> we're pushing the limit here. great woody allen line. >> well, it was amazing. like during the debt ceiling debate, we actually tracked how often members were actually at work or showing up to work during this critical time when consumer confidence dropped 20 points, not because of the outcome, because of the nature of the debate and americans looked and said, this is the most important thing that can ham right now in congress and people weren't even to showing up to work. all you've got to do is show up three out of four weeks. you get a week to go back to your district. >> you're a little unreasonable, mark. all right. before we go to break, explain

to me why payroll tax cut extension wouldn't be good for the middle class at this point. can republicans and democrats agree on that without any string attached? shouldn't that be possible at this point? >> yeah, it should be. >> i wanted to settle that. we were having a little -- >> throw in a pipeline. >> no, the pipeline thing -- the republicans. >> it's my way or the highway. >> no, joe. >> if you don't agree to the president's approach. >> if they attach the pipeline bill to this payroll tax cut extension, then they'd have to go through a 30-day review with the department there and it would die, so they're killing it. >> so if i were in the house of representatives right now. >> you cannot agree on a payroll tax cut for middle class? >> no, i can't. if i were in the house of representatives right now with a $15 trillion debt and i looked last year at the fact that we

passed a payroll extension plan and it didn't do anything to create one new job in america. before i agreed to put us deeper in debt with another payroll tax cut, i would make damn sure there was something in that bill that i knew would create jobs. >> but you're killing what you're putting in the bill. >> no, i'm not. only if you have democrats like the democrats in the united states senate that effectively kill every good idea republicans have. no, no, no, stop. you talked about putting a noose around this bill. the fact of the matter is, you are doing what you accuse republicans of doing, my way or the highway. i think a payroll tax by itself is a bad idea. it didn't work last year, it didn't create jobs last year, it put us deeper in debt last year. >> so you disagree. >> if democrats want that, fine. i will give you that. but in return, we're going to pay for it, and we're going to

actually put a project out there that will make us less dependent on foreign oil and create jobs. okay. that's my view of the world. now let's talk about it. but democrats will just kill the bill. >> mark's point of view is that they could agree collectively on a payroll tax cut extension without any -- >> that's my only -- >> democrats did pay for their payroll tax. >> it's paid for so your point is -- it's strategically muddled. >> no, it's not. this bill did not create jobs last year, mika. it did not create jobs. >> it's stunning. >> why do i raise taxes in a time of unemployment if that's what you want to do in a time of economic decline. why do i raise taxes to pass a bill that might create jobs? now two drags on the economy. >> how do you want to pay for it? >> well, you can pay for it by a

series of things. we can talk about that, we can compromise. i wouldn't vote for the bill unless we had something in there that would put people back to work. and this would put people back to work. >> up next, moderator of "meet the press." >> you don't like the idea because there are certain constituencies that are loyal to democrats -- >> no. >> -- that don't like this plan. >> i can't believe they can't agree on this one thing, one thing, both sides. >> it's a bad idea. >> really. a payroll tax cut extension for the middle class is a terrible idea. >> it's a bad idea because people are in debt right now and it doesn't create new jobs. give me tax cuts that create new jobs. >> mark, it's paid for, right? >> the democrats have a proposal to pay for it. >> passing legislation that you know the other body will not take up. >> wait, wait, you see, though,

you are now saying republicans just like mika's saying do exactly what barack obama says and exactly what harry reid wants or else you are not -- >> we're in a crisis in this country over unemployment, and rather than passing bills that can't pass the other chamber, there should be meetings trying to get a compromise. >> and guess what? we could. except for the fact that democrats effectively pocket veto every idea republicans have. >> i think republicans want to make sure they get in the way of everything. everything this president wants to make sure -- >> well, you want to rubber stamp for bad ideas, then -- >> how is that a bad idea? >> look what it got us. >> the payroll tax cut, the pipelines, we should be able to accept the pipelines. >> okay. there's nothing wrong with it. >> well, that's the -- mika, that's the nature of compromise. i think your idea's a bad idea, i think yours is a bad idea.

but i don't care whether it's paid for. you can't answer this. because you don't want to compromise, you want to have your feet in cement. i think your idea's a bad idea, but you really want it. you think my idea's a bad idea, but i think it helps america. can't we come together and compromise? that's the legislative process. >> me -- >> it would take 30 days and therefore if they don't have it, there are rules in place that would ultimate little kill would kill it. >> you were demonizing republicans right and left -- >> really? >> yes, you are. >> i'm here to compromise. >> you won't answer any my of questions. >> you don't want to compromise. you're acting worse than him in that you say support the president and support the democratic idea or you are wrong. >> no, i'm saying be honest about exactly what you're bringing to the table. >> at what we're -- >> one thing it'd be a great

compromise for both sides. >> the idea is, i think your plan, democratic plan is not going to create new jobs. i think the pipeline creates new jobs and makes us less dependent on foreign oil. you don't like that idea, i say fine, let's compromise. >> move forward and kill that payroll tax cut extension, i think that -- >> if republicans don't pass the payroll tax, they will be punished more than democrats. i'm for the pipeline, but the payroll tax cuts is more understood than other americans, unfortunately for republicans. >> well, mark, thanks for trying. >> you know -- >> coming up, david gregory and nbc political -- >> you're sitting together, so it's hard to demonize. wow. it's a great hd tv... shhh. don't speak. i'll just leave you two alone. [ male announcer ] the big christmas event is here. 8 a.m. saturday. with our lowest prices of the season on select toys, electronics and more... the only stop for last minute gifts is walmart.

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it is -- >> coming up now on the set -- >> he comes over and looks at this, looks at this desk.

this has to be the barnicle seat. >> david, you're a neat freak, aren't you? >> i'm a little bit. >> are we going to have one of those like pull-chain showers? >> i have to say, though, even with what's going on over here. >> we've got some issues -- >> we're straightening up. >> the mind can't be focused if we're -- >> so, you know, david, sometimes we -- sometimes we -- debate like we did. usually we try to keep calm, but sometimes we sound out the debate just so people at home hear what both sides are saying. >> you're demonstrating. >> and i really believe what i said and mika believes what she said, but we decided to go ahead and do that to let people know that both sides aren't arguing about nothing here. you always hear, oh, the republicans, oh, the democrats -- no, there are very real differences between republicans and democrats as we,

i think, just demonstrated. >> i think the volatility that, you know, we'll talk about in our poll and it's going on is exactly that. we've been talking about this actually for several years. the role of government in a distressed economy, the role of government in the country right now, that's a fundamental split. and i think that's why there's so much anger on the right. it's why i think we don't know what's going on in the republican party. there's been a lot that's been confounding to voters and commentators. gingrich has the desire to take the fight about what government should and shouldn't do. i argue it as a great sorting out after the bush years of what the republican party should be and we're in the process of that. >> chuck, a lot of times, these national polls, we always say these national polls like the nbc news, the "wall street journal," and others in primaries don't really matter. and that's been proven over the past several months, but yesterday's poll, you talked about the relevance of the branding.

newt gingrich, conservative. >> right? >> mitt romney, moderate. that matters. there is a real branding issue for mitt romney. >> well, and if you look back at the romney -- mitt romney over the last year, i think you're going to see some regret by the campaign they didn't do enough to define himself. they didn't -- i think they tried, but they kept emphasizing. they clearly focused on something and heard the private sector saying the best part of the biography. so every time mitt romney opens his mouth, he says the phrase private sector experience. it feels focus grouped. it feels as if someone told him you should say this, but they didn't seem to figure out how to take his biography and call it conservatism. i think they tried, but in a way that was so -- so tried to emphasize businessman, they missed what happened in 2010.

>> so sort through. we've got a lot of numbers to talk about. david, talk about how these polls matter. we've seen the ups and downs, the bachmanns, the cains, the perrys. newt's up now, some polls showing him going down. does it matter that he has such a commanding lead right now? >> i think it does because i think it represents consolidating an anti-romney vote against him. we're just a couple of weeks away from iowa, and he's got that put together. and in a commanding way, he's got that put together. but i think there's a volatility. i think right now republican primary goers have a couple of things going on. they're not excited about one candidate, but they're real concerned about the other. >> yeah. >> how would you like that if you were a father, your daughter was going out on a date, i don't like that guy and i'm concerned about -- >> and this goes to what we have in our poll about the view that this is either an average or a weak field. >> yeah. >> but there's still so much

passion driving those who think it's a strong field, those that want to see gingrich debate obama. i've talked to republicans, as well, who say there is this view that gingrich versus obama in the debate is going to be, you know, is that frazier/ali. >> is it -- isn't gingrich sort of who should be defending where the republican party is today? he was there at the beginning of this version of the republican party. he helped create it, create the atmosphere for better for worse. >> right. >> so that's right. you could argue, okay, this is where it is today. he is -- >> to defend it. >> george w. bush, governor of texas, with this guy and other very, very talented guys behind him. specifically distanced themselves. the conservatism was to say that george bush was --

>> he was talking about being a different kind of republican, when newt gingrich was talking about burning down washington, george w. bush was talking about the role of government, immigration reform -- >> that's right. and gingrich is also a bigger government conservative. >> we talk gingrich out in '98 for a variety of reasons. but i remember hearing carl rove telling somebody, if gingrich were still speaker in 2000 when bush ran,he probably wouldn't have won. it was close enough. but would you agree with that? >> absolutely. >> what do you think -- >> it's the definition of the republican party. and gingrich has the role now of defining the role of the republican party and where it's headed, where it's been. he says he's an historian and he's been part of that history. >> if you polled the country and asked them who was bob dole's running mate in '96? >> i don't know, it's gingrich versus obama, you say what people want to see. i don't want to see that, i don't think it would be good for the country. >> but mika, i don't think you're exactly who is appealing

that. >> well, i agree, we've been arguing the payroll tax cut extension. >> debating, not arguing. >> arguing, debating, in friendship, but we definitely completely disagree. and i have to go back to something mitch mcconnell said a long time ago i thought was being overly focused on, which is number one goal isn't to defeat president obama. having said that, looking how the republicans and congress have operated over the past two years, i get the feeling that's all they want to do. then you look at the republican field and you think, really? this is the field you're going to put on the table because you've been focusing on defeating this guy? but then you've got these, honestly, group of clowns, posers, and maybe one legitimate candidate who can't seem to gain in the polls. seriously, you want to beat him, bring someone to the table. >> but republicans believe, and i'll let you talk, dave, what you just said basically suggests

that i believe what i believe and what i believe my whole life because i want to defeat barack obama. no, i believe what i believe and i don't want some of this legislation to pass because i think barack obama's ideas for the economy are genuinely bad. >> and i believe there are a few serious republicans in congress who are like you, just a few. >> just a few? wow, out of -- >> you don't see that happening in this argument about the payroll tax extension -- >> here's the thing, i think you can't be dismissive of candidates out there. i remember this happened to bush all the time and he rather use that to his advantage, he's not a serious candidate, he's not really prepared. but the reality is, you're bringing up a good point. if you're a little less cynical about it, you say the republican party went through something post-bush and decided with obama coming in, they were going to dig in their heels, therm going to hue to the orthodoxy of much smaller government and they saw the rise of a tea party, it's a

sentiment that's driving the grass roots and responded to it. and look how it got organized and had an impact in 2006. there is a real debate about what government should be doing, what the size and scope of government should be. and we have it now because the president is saying it's a fight for the middle class, income redistribution should be a priority. and republicans are saying, no, we've got to get to a much different place where we don't bail out major banks, where we fundamentally shrink the size of government. this is as fundamental as it gets. >> it really is. what? what? i speak up and it's not -- >> no, it's not that you speak up, it's you delegitimatize my world view of government that20. and barack obama does this all the time too. those republicans just want to stop me. there's never the assumption that maybe those republicans don't believe in his big

government prescription for turning -- >> i -- >> you can't just say all republicans are trying to stop obama that's all they care about. >> with all due respect to your world view -- >> this is the hurt talking. >> i get what he's saying. >> if i could just pick up -- when he gets -- it's the hurt talking, coming from a vulnerable place saying i have a world view. >> and i -- >> your world view is beautiful. >> is this how therapy works? >> let's look at each other. >> okay. actually, actually, we're having fun, mika and i are having fun. the only person who is really screaming in anger, is alex, he says we're now -- thank you for being with us. we're going to have the hazmat operator -- >> move right in. >> they're showering you down. >> i didn't know there was.

>> a lot more on nbc politics, log on to nbcpolitics.com, and follow the political team on twitter at nbc politics. and make sure you dig into the polls. thank you, chuck, thank you, david, as well. keep it here on "morning joe." dad, why are you getting that? is there a prize in there? oh, there's a prize, all right. [ male announcer ] inside every box of cheerios are those great-tasting little o's made from carefully selected oats that can help lower cholesterol. is it a superhero? kinda. ♪ nyqui tylenol: me, too. and cougnasal congestion.ers? kinda. nyquil:what? tissue box (whispering): he said nasal congestion... nyquil: i heard him. anncr vo: tylenol cold multi-symptom nighttime relieves nasal congestion... nyquil cold & flu doesn't. ♪ my hair is gone ♪ cheap cologne ♪ motor home

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hey, what is the don't miss tv program in the vice president's residence? >> for me or for joe? >> for you and then for the vice president. >> i love "the good wife." i love watching that. for joe, he likes "morning joe." >> oh. >> he watches that a lot. >> see? >> barnicle, you told me it's his favorite show. >> because he's the greatest vice president in the history of united states. >> there's no doubt about it. >> i love -- >> you know, dr. jill, sort of winced when she said "morning joe." >> no, she didn't. >> it's been ideological for -- >> no, i think it's been a good exchange. >> it has. >> we just are trying -- >> we don't agree, though. we try and like meet in the

middle. >> sometimes it's good to, you know, just have a good debate. >> absolutely. >> but you know what? but you know, with this whole no labels thing, we're still seated together. >> i love this idea. by the way, make sure, kelly wallace, is she not awesome? >> i love her. you can watch the full interview on ivillage.com. she talks about military families and the work that she and the first lady are doing to raise awareness of the sacrifices made every single day. >> do you like men wearing scarves? >> know, but we still love him. david gregory is leaving. i'm sorry you couldn't work it out either. >> he's our new counselor. >> he's so brilliant. >> now, in his first major interview since taking office, andrew cuomo talks to "gq" about

his feelings about the governor. wow. it's a great hd tv... shhh. don't speak. i'll just leave you two alone. [ male announcer ] the big christmas event is here. 8 a.m. saturday. with our lowest prices of the season on select toys, electronics and more... the only stop for last minute gifts is walmart.

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krid gridlock stopped the government and we can't let that happen here. i believe we will be the better for it. we're new yorkers, give us lemons, and we will make lemonade. we just have to stick together because that is the source of our strength as new yorkers. >> 47 past the hour, that is democratic new york governor andrew cuomo talking about the economic hardships in his state. last week, new york passed a tax bill that includes cuts for the middle class and hikes for the wealthy. how did he get that done? joining us now "gq" correspondent lisa depaulo author of a new piece. >> good to see you again. >> you too, i missed you.

>> we like it better on this side when you're not writing about us. >> much less nervous. >> so the real governorator. a guy promising not to raise taxes, but ran into reality this past month and decided he had to raise taxes. >> well, i think even more important, did you ever think there would be a tax cut on the middle class in new york state at this time? i thought that was amazing he got that through. >> so he doesn't do a lot of interviews, does he? >> no. >> and -- >> how does he get away with that? >> he's wonderful with the press. i saw him in action with the albany press, and he's very direct, very terrific. i think -- i'm not sure he doesn't do many, but this is a fun interview because he talked about all kinds of things. >> what did your learn about him that might explain how he got this done? because this is certainly a huge accomplishment. >> he has really evolved, this man. remember when people were calling him prince of darkness and darth vader and that was the

nice days? he's really just become a -- an incredibly effective guy. and he's happy. he's definitely happy. but what he's done is he's gotten albany the most dysfunctional state government in the country to play nice. and who would ever think that andrew cuomo would get everyone to play nice? >> are you surprised? >> yeah, i am surprised, given how things started out for him, this is remarkable. >> and his approval ratings are pretty darn high. >> they ought to be, actually. the interesting thing to me, lisa is the albany factor. >> yes. >> albany's a land of midgets, and so andrew goes up there, he's been there before when his dad was governor. and he's been an effective counselor to his father. did anything he absorb from his dad, how did it play into his dealings with the legislature today? >> it's interesting, he had two big influences, his father and

bill clinton. and he said, you know, one of the things he learned from clinton was how to cross the aisle. how to compromise. really done it. one of the interesting keys is that he flattered these guys. you know, these assemblymen from all over the state, he did. he said, you know, work with me. i will go back to your district, i will praise you, i will credit you. previous times, i mean, spitzer came in basically dissing them before he even got sworn in. >> yeah. >> so andrew was like, as he said, you know, as mysy krillian grandfather says, you know, you get more flies with honey than vinegar, and he did it but what's so funny it's andrew cuomo that did it. >> what's also fascinating, what he talks about is his relationship with his dad. it's father, it's son, it's italian. they try to turn it into an opera and try to make it complicated. it's not complicated. >> right. >> what did he mean by that? >> i think everything is written about him. the story line, like this

operatic story line all the time, and i always found that kind of funny and maybe because i have an "o" at the end of my name. i don't know a father and son that doesn't have drama so i thought that was odd that it was always made into such a big deal. what he tried to say and did say is, you know, his father had him running his campaign when andrew was 23 years old. if -- if there was a really horrible relationship, that would not have happened. >> yeah. >> what about chris christie, what's his relationship? he and chris christie at least early on were on the phone every day. he took a lot of ideas from chris christie. >> i think he genuinely likes him. it was interesting because when i would ask him about president obama he was kind of like, yeah, what, and i when i asked him -- >> a little bit distant. >> yeah, whatever. >> and i when i asked him about

christie, the guy across the river, working so well and i also talked to his brother chris and he said andrew berated him about the media's obsession with christie's weight, and he -- and he said to him so what? tell your friends at abc and your media elite friends to get out of new york city and go upstate and go around the country and see what people really look like, people with real jobs. >> totally. >> so it sounds like, and i've heard it in private conversations behind the scenes, sounds like these two guys are friends, pretty close friends. >> i think so. i think they respect each other, and i think they have a lot of common, you know, ground in terms of what, you know -- there is that river, you know. >> there is that river. >> mckinnon has taken pictures. did you see that? he's your facebook buddy, twitter buddy. >> you're awesome. >> my facebook friends. >> yeah, we're facebook friends. >> do you want to play scrabble? because alec baldwin, i was going to ask him. >> i was going to say as long as you're not flying. we'll kick you off the set if

you do it here. the january issue of "gq" hits stands nationwide january 20th. the article is "the real governator." another good one. >> great to have you here. come back. >> great to see you. >> i'm not leaving. >> okay. stay here then. that's fine. a look at tomorrow's show. former new york city mayor rudy giuliani, also bill bennett with us. we're going to crack that williams, that williams controversy. >> we could be diplomats. >> get him back with the williams. >> this is something we can agree on. >> we agree on so much, mika. you are watching "morning joe." we are brewed by starbucks. the employee of the month is...

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good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast. wake up. take a live look at new york city. >> i can't wait to see who is "time's" person of the year. >> it's got to be navy s.e.a.l. team 6. >> that's got to be it.

>> that's it. now we've killed hamlet. >> back with us on set, mike barb call and mark halperin and harold ford j and willie. >> willie, when you wanted to kill osama bin laden, who do you call? >> s.e.a.l. team six. got to be s.e.a.l. team six. >> always ruin it, sorry. >> you know i'm a small government guy, i'm a less government guy. >> yes. >> i don't like regulations, but i will tell what you. >> now what? >> after dodging cars over the past two or three years. >> oh. >> with mainly, i'll just say mainly teenage girls, teenage boys used to scare the hell out of me driving. it's teenage girls now that swerve over into lanes and i look at this. ban on cell use by drivers is being urged. i'm not saying it's got to be done, but you know what, they have got to seriously curb the abuses because, you know, i -- i am much more frightened when i

get my kids into my car today than i've ever been before. again, these days it's not teenage boys that make me slow down and pull over to the other side of the road. it's when i see teenage girls shooting out of parking lots looking down like this, and i'm sure i'm going to get killed for saying this. >> it's working moms you should be worried about. >> boys, too, no doubt about it, but it's a clear and present danger. >> it's everyone. >> you know, one-third, according to this article, one-third of many people died this past year from -- from these sort of distractions, as died from alcoholism -- as died from drunk drivers. >> try this. next time you are stopped at a red light at an intersection, you're there, you're waiting for the lights to change, count the number of people who go through the light in front of you who are on the cell phone. >> okay. >> when they come through the light, it's astounding, at least half. at least half. >> here's the argument about

government and how much government should be involved, but let's be really transparent and keep it real or at least i will. how many table at this has done it? >> in the past. >> who hasn't ever talked on the phone while driving? >> i do on the speaker phone. >> yeah. >> have you ever had the receiver to your ear while driving? >> no. >> barnicle, you're the only person who has never done it. >> i'm afraid it. >> do you? >> i've done it, i don't anymore. >> just stop. >> this isn't "perry mason." no, no, no. i have changed -- i have changed my habits now, and i talk on a speaker phone. i do not text while i'm driving, and i don't fumble around and put it up to my ear anymore. >> do you ever dial while you drive? >> you have a speaker in your car that allows you to talk with your hands free. and those are expensive. >> they aren't that expensive. >> i used to. i don't any longer. i put it on speaker and use blue

tooth. >> willie does two phones when he's driving. >> drives with the knees. >> i confess to having done it. i think everyone has, but can you imagine losing your child or a member of your family because somebody was looking down sending a reply to a e-mail. it's just not worth it. a step in the right direction. >> happens all the time. totally agreement speaking of directions, a new direction in iowa. >> there is. we should take a look at this. a new poll this morning. >> getting tight. >> this is where i go forward now with it. >> it's getting tight. >> it is getting tight. >> that natural tightening. mark halperin, talk about that. >> a new poll this morning providing more evidence that newt gingrich is losing some traction in iowa. yesterday we showed you two polls suggesting that the former speaker's lead may be slipping, and a new public policy poll is giving new weight to this tracking. the poll shows gingrich in a statistical tie with texas congressman ron paul. gingrich dropped five points since the beginning of the month while paul gained four points in the same time period. romney is in third, remaining steady at 16% support among iowa

caucus--goers. >> let's keep those numbers up really quickly. some people in the past that bashed ppp polling. i've got to say over the last two cycles, it's been more rack rat than most mainline polls, and -- and in this case, you know, mark halperin, you said there would be a natural tightening. 20 -- i would not be surprised if iowa ends up 20, 20, 20, with -- with michele bachmann at 15. a real tossup. >> it's hard to poll a caucus because you don't know who will turn out. looking at numbers what, separates rick santorum and newt gingrich is a small enough margin if someone can get momentum and get hot at the end, this could be be a bigger jumble than 20, 20, 20. could you have everyone on that screen with a decent share of the vote and the difference in the number of people you need to turn out between first and fifth could be pretty small.

>> and mike barnicle, there were articles -- there was an article in the "wall street journal" this morning talking about actually we bring his name up again for the first time in about a week, jon huntsman, saying why is this happening now? could not have been written out better by jon huntsman if he had tried, to have this sort of grouping up. you have ron paul rising. you have newt gingrich rising. you have mitt romney staying around 20%. this is a war of attrition that allows jon huntsman to get his feet, to get his -- get a good result in new hampshire and survive through south carolina and florida. >> well, yeah. the longer, and it's every day now. it's a sustained conflict between gingrich and romney. the longer that occurs, huntsman's chances, ron paul's chances would improve in a tightened field like that. and in the former speaker's case i still think he's the story. he's the big story in that party, and it's clearly -- it's not a case of familiarity breeds

contempt, but it is i think a case familiarity with gingrich breeds unease, among even the most rabid of caucus-goers and primary-goers. just unease. >> i'm going to say this and we'll go to a national nbc news/"wall street journal" poll in a minute that shows real divisions in the republican party, not bad divisions, but real divisions. >> right. >> and it breaks down this way. if you're a conservative, nationally you're going to support newt gingrich. if you're a moderate nationally right now you're supporting mitt romney. and that is the dynamic nationally that's taking place, not so much in iowa and new hampshire where they are getting closer looks, but just as far as the broad brush. there is no doubt mitt romney will have to start pulling some conservative voters over, or he's not going to win this nomination. >> i would agree. the question i would have for you following this, knowing

this, living it, having practiced it, is there a third group, a group in the republican primary across the country, the republican constituency across the country that has to answer the question who is most electable? if you look back, and mark has certainly a grasp of this, if you look back four years ago, eight years ago, 12 years ago this time of the year there, comes a point in the party who is not in the white house's primary where they begin to ask the question who is most likely to win. john kerry and howard dean back in 2004, dean was surging. john kerry surged near the end. people said this is the guy that can likely win. george w. bush the same way in 2000. the question is do republicans begin to ask themselves the question -- at what point do they ask that question? do they ever ask it in iowa or after iowa? at that point maybe a huntsman or others emerge. right now -- second question is are we then in a two-man race? as much as hunts man is likely or may have a chance. >> we're not in a two-man race. >> not in a two-man race.

ron paul is -- of all of the candidates this year, and i think the person that's shown the most impressive growth, if you are looking at candidates like you're looking at companies, it's ron paul, 8%, 10%, 11%, 13%, 15%. he's up to 20% in iowa and new hampshire in some polls where a lot of other people are darting up and down. willie geist, one of the interesting things that republicans understand is every time you have people in the national press talking about how you need to be wise enough to vote for the electable guy, bad things happen in the general election. in 1976, the smart move was ford over reagan. the moderate ford, the moderate ford lost. in 1980 howard baker was the

smart pick. george h.w. bush was the smart pick. the carter white house feared howard baker, the moderate. ronald reagan got elected and won. you can fast forward to 1996. bob dole, the smart pick. bob dole lost. 2008, john mccain, the smart pick. john mccain lost. the reality is when republicans nominate moderates more often than not moderates lose. >> yeah, and to harold's point about electability and to your point here, joe, exactly, the new nbc poll we had out yesterday shows newt gingrich would win a primary, something we've been saying whether it's rick perry on top o michele bachmann could win a primary but what happens when he goes to a general. mau get through the primary and loses in the general by ten points. mitt romney maybe doesn't make it through a primary but has a

better shot at beating barack obama so therein lies the dilemma for republican voters. conservative or the guy who can win the general who is more moderate? >> exactly. >> to harold's question, it's whether or not they are actually thinking about that. >> right. this may be. if i'm jon huntsman, my argument is i am the third way. you have a conservative -- a person that george will and eric erickson called the most conservative in the race and somebody that everybody thinks is electable in a general election. >> and he's been doing the rounds. on "the view" yesterday and on several other networks doing interviews as if he's not missed a beat, and not looking at the polls, keeping his head down and moving forward. let's look into those numbers willie was talking about, the tightening in iowa comes as new nbc news/"wall street journal" polling suggests mitt romney's main obstacle lies with his party's primary voters while gingrich faces hurdles with the general election. gingrich is topping the republican presidential field

with 40% support. the highest percentage any republican candidate has received in the race so far. mitt romney is 17 points behind with 23% support. however, the polling shows romney has a better chance against president obama in a general election matchup, head-to-head mitt romney and barack obama are in a statistical tie while gingrich trails the president by 11 points. when president obama is up against a generic republican candida candidate, he loses the match, up by two points. that may be a reflection of the frustration within the witness with the majority of the voters calling the republican field average and 27% calling the candidates weak. the poll also sheds light into why romney may be losing ground among gop voters. 70% of republicans call themselves conservative but only 29% believe romney fits that category. 57% believe newt gingrich checks that box off, and as mitt romney tries to win over that base of

voters, he is going after gingrich, questioning his conservative credentials. in an interview with the "washington post," the former massachusetts governor said in part, quote, he's been an extraordinary unreliable leader in the conservative world, not 16 or 17 years ago but in the last two to three years, and even during the campaign. the number of times he has moved from one spot to another has been remarkable. i think he's shown a level of unreliability as a conservative leader today. >> and the problem, mika, with that argument coming from mitt romney, jon huntsman can make that argument, michele bachmann can make that argument, rick santorum can make that argument, ron paul can make that argument. the problem that mitt romney has when he makes that argument is that when he says something like that, a newspaper digs up a quote yesterday from 2002, this decade, where he bragged about being a progressive. >> mm-hmm, mm-hmm, i saw, that yeah. >> and therein lines the great challenge for mitt romney to say

i'm the true blue conservative leader. >> that's the question harold is requesting. how does the base make its decisions? i mean, do they make it on conservativeness or on ability to win? >> i think that ultimately is one of the questions they will have to answer. i understand joe's point about conservatism versus non-conservative or the moderate versus the conservative, but if you think of george w. bush in 2000, he premised his whole campaign on being a compassionate conservative, not leaving any child behind so he tried to position himself as that. on a second note, ron paul, one of the reasons i think he has been so consistent in the polls, with a prominent republican yesterday who outlined a thesis that each of the candidates has to have. ron paul is the one candidate who has had the most consistent throughout, a libertarian, a proud one. >> right. >> taken on the fed and certain policies. he's not wavered at all. you look at gingrich, has a record that is mixed. if you look at romney, a record that's mixed and i would argue huntsman. he's worked for president obama and has some questions he would

have to answer in a primary. paul is the one candidate throughout his time in politics who -- >> he's been consistent. >> "a one-note pony in terms of his thesis for being president. i don't like it but it's a one-note boney. >> one more note about ron paul. he's never going to be president of the united states. >> okay. >> ron paul has been on television with paid media and even though presidential politics isn't dominated with television ads like most campaigns are, paul has had tv advertising in iowa and elsewhere to himself for the most part. rick perry is on tv now, but we've not seen the kind of advertising we're about to see in the last couple of weeks which i think will equalize to some extent the stand iing. >> holman jenkins in the "wall street journal" writes about mitt's moment, and we're going to read an excerpt, but one part is fascinate d at beginning whee he talks about newt gingrich leading in the polls, but he said the front-runner has lined

up with ted kennedy, pull krugman, obama's campaign brain trust and the pulitzer department of every major newspaper and assaulting mr. romney is a job killer for his role in private equity. and, again, newt just did this a couple days ago, sounding like paul krugman and ted kennedy, so it's so hard. when i see republicans saying that newt is the conservative alternative it baffles me. other parts here. it's fascinating about what mitt romney has done. talking about his bain career being a success. at that he succeeded and rescuing the olympics he succeeded, winning the massachusetts governorship he succeeded, crafting bipartisan health care plan, he succeeded. subsidizing demand for health care without breaking the bank he didn't succeed, but he's got a pretty good track record of getting things done, mitt does. >> and newt gingrich, the gingrich comment about bain

capital which he referenced there has done something which is possible, has pushed george will, who has a column today into mitt romney's arms, so offended by what gingrich said. >> up next we'll reveal "time" magazine's person of the year, although we already have. >> s.e.a.l. team six. >> the managing editor joins us at the big table with the big table and after that kerry kennedy will be here and now let's go to bill cairns. >> not even close, wasn't even nominated, were you guys? >> oh, wait, you weren't either. let's take a look at the weather forecast out there at the airports. delays today. at o'hair 30-minute delays, 44 degrees. rain showers out there. a lot of the rain is in the middle of the country. the green shows you the rain. normally there's white on this map that shows you where the snow is, it's so warm, ridiculously warm december no snow in the state of michigan, not even on the ground that.

never happens this time of year. we will see some rain from detroit, chicago, mentioned the rain for you and back in the middle of the country, too, so we're dry for one more day. pretty milled, pittsburgh to buffalo. middle of the country you'll see rain and maybe a few thunderstorms now and then and for the most part just watching light rain. dallas to areas down in san antonio. strong storms likely and at worse maybe an isolated tornado or two, so it's been a crazy december, no snow on the way, no cold on the air and if you're hoping for a white christmas i don't have a lot of good news for you. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. hi, could you read my list?

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23 past the hour. welcome back. "time" magazine reveals the person of the year. the criteria, a person or group of people for better or worse has done the most to influence events or affect our lives. >> may have killed hamlet the first act. can we show the bump-in shot as we introducing the "time" managing editor tim stengal. has a final say who is on the list and why not tim tebow. >> okay. >> fresh off a "morning joe" appearance. that makes you about as important as it gets. >> when looking at the criteria and then looking at the cover, i get it. i get it. >> so who is it? >> the "time" person of the year for 2011, the protester, all around the world, middle east and now in america, who in some

cases have toppled dictators, governments, brought a new discussion of democracy and liberty to our world discussion, and i think it's a truly -- world historical changes going on now. particularly we saw it in the middle east. who would have thought in the space of a few months you would have lost dictators in egypt and tunisia and look at what's going on in syria, and now look at what's happening in russia. >> yeah. >> this is kind of a contagious virus of protests that's going on around the world, where people feel empowered, people feel frustrated and are able to get out into the street. haven't seen that in decades. >> and look what's happening here. >> we haven't seen this since 1848 where protests spread across europe and toppled governments. >> and, of course, we focus on the 1960s, the protests about what happened here, what happened in chicago but it was happening in paris and happening, of course, in prague, happening all across the world, but it's happening again here and how amazing, rick, that it

started this spark in tunisia with the street fighter being treated disrespectfully. >> you know, in fact, one of the weeks i wasn't here, a few weeks ago i was in egypt and tunisia and i went to a tiny little town three or four hours outside of tunis, really in the back of beyond, really in the middle of nowhere. you can't imagine that some global phenomenon would start in this place. it's very poor. we went to the house of a family, and it's just so poor. >> tell us the story for those who quickly don't know how this all began. >> that really, really began. there's a young fellow, a fruit siller in a tiny little town. his name is muhammad, and he had been hassled by the authorities over and over and one day a police woman took his tray away and slapped him, and a couple of hours later he came back and he lit himself on fire on gasoline in front of like city hall. again, it's amazing that it started there because you would think nothing could start there, and people got upset.

they had been frustrated and they started protests in this little town, and then they spread through all of tunisia, and eventually several months later they topped ben ali, the dictator of tunisia, and people throughout -- >> it started to spread as people began to see this. >> and social networking was a part of this because people started tweeting about it. there was video of it. it was on al jazeera which played an enormous role and hen it spread like a virus, like a benign virus, i would say, and -- and it changed the whole politics of the middle east and in some ways the rest of the world. >> such an incredible story when you go back to the beginning and remember how it started. it's just incredible. >> it is, and, again, it's -- the other thing we forget, and, again, this occupy wall street, occupy oakland has been a big thing, protesters in madrid and greece, but these people are not risking their lives. they are getting out there and doing something important, but in the middle east everybody who goes out in protest is risking their life and livelihood, and they have just been so

frustrated. i mean, we've talked about this. all year long we talked about the idea of frustration that people have, in the west and also in the middle east and elsewhere around the world, and these people are doing something about it and it's having an effect. >> it also represents that for a long time in this country and elsewhere people's response was apathy. this is sort of the year that apathy turned into action. >> absolutely. >> the stakes were too high and people said we've got to act now. >> you've seen that even in your own work, right, mark? people are feeling all the traditional systems are broken down and we need to do something different. >> so we have to go outside the system and do it on our own. >> harold, what do you think about the selection? >> i think, first of all, it's a fascinating selection because it's -- i agree with everything being said about empowering people and people expressing themselves but it also speaks to just this kind of global economy, where people sit and people making the case that these systems don't work, and our country, congress and the political system is dysfunctional, i would agree with you, people not risking their lives but people's lives

are at risk, that's why here in the united states and new york and across the country people are doing it. when it was first mentioned earlier, all thinking about what does this mean. after hearing you walk through it, it makes all the sense in the world. >> talk about the global economy. one of the interesting phenomenons is that you if in countries that are downtrodden, you have revolution and change when there's rising expectations. egypt's gdp grew by 5% last year, and part of the reason that the revolution happened there is that people's expectations were higher. in the west it happens for the opposite reason. you know, when economies are down, people start protesting, so even though people in the middle east would kill to have governments like they have in greece and america, but basically that problem is that they don't have them and they are out protesting. >> let's talk about other people. who is number two? >> the first runner up is admiral mccraven and a fantastic story about mccraven who basically led s.e.a.l. team six

and really, you know, played an outsized role even though he's behind the scenes, a terrific story. >> and the killing of osama bin laden. >> ai weiwei, the chinese dissident who is an extraordinary figure and in some ways he compliments the selection of the protester. weiwei did a piece of art for us in the magazine, and we skyped with him for the last few weeks. he's really an extraordinary fellow and also a hero. >> number four, paul ryan. >> i like number four. >> paul ryan, i think, what i saw about paul ryan is that he basically started the political dialogue in america about the debt, about deficits, about kind of fixing the orthodoxies that -- that a lot of people have complained about, and i were say that he basically changed the entire conversation, you know, in the republican party and nation at large. >> changed the debate. >> and number five, my choice, kate middleton. >> well, you know -- >> don't yell at me, i'm having fun. >> i just don't get it. >> what do you mean you don't

get it? >> the first three make a lot of sense. >> she gave us pipa, come on. >> i'm going to let joe defend that choice. >> the historic monarchy, allowed pipa to carry her train. >> that's true. >> into the cathedral. >> why did "time" select her? for different reasons than that. >> gives us something a little lighter in the mix. certainly someone people talked about this year. she's a -- i would argue that she's -- she's given a new kind of dignity to the royal family that they haven't had in a long time, and it comes from a commoner, too. >> and it comes -- >> was grover norquist considered? >> well, i thought -- we did a big story on grover, and to me it was grover and paul ryan in effect were kind of competing for that space, and -- and paul ryan is in better shape. >> that would have made more sense to me for number five. >> thank you, rick. >> really good to have you. the protester, the artwork is

fascinating. it's a woman. >> it's a woman. it's made by shepard ferry. kurt anderson wrote the cover story, did a fantastic job. he and i went to egypt and tunisia a couple weeks ago. shepard ferry did the cover, a montage of 26 different photographs. it -- it could be someone from the middle east. it could be someone from america. it's actually a combination. >> really cool. >> i get it now. didn't get it at first. rick stengal thank you. the person of the year issue is online today and hits newsstands on friday. rick, thank. kerry kennedy is standing by in the green room. we'll be right back. luck? i don't trade on luck. i trade on fundamentals. analysis. information. i trade on tradearchitect. this is web-based trading, re-visualized. streaming, real-time quotes. earnings analysis. probability analysis: that's what opportunity looks like. it's all visual. intuitive.

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welcome back to "morning joe." with us now is the founder of the robert f. kennedy center for justice and human rights, kerry kennedy. she's here to talk about the center's annual holiday auction which raises money, of course, for human rights activists around the world, and mika, they are just -- they are just not playing around. >> she just picked up another auction item. >> like what's that? >> harold. >> harold, really. >> harold ford jr. >> coffee with harold. >> okay. >> you can join us, if you like. >> that's okay.

i'm going to bid on the pope, and that's what i need. >> and i'm going to buy you. >> you're the auction item. >> you are an auction item. >> he needs his own auctionite them. >> you're an auction item within yourself. >> but mika, look at this. >> you can bid on harold and you might win. >> take a bid on the harold and bid on joe and mika, or he can bid on the pope. tell us about this. how did you get that? >> how great is that? >> what is that about. you go to see the sistine chapel. >> no! >> you go have a mass with the pope. you get private, you know, very special seating there. you can go see a few other things in the vatican. >> and you get to meet the pope. >> you get to meet the pope. >> you go straight to heaven, you know. that's part of it. >> yeah. >> that's worth $11,000. >> you better bid on that. >> this is going to be putting down. >> and all this money goes to a good cause. >> it really does. >> and i thought coffee with harold was something. >> but you've got to have that.

>> you also have could have we harold, opening bid about $20,000. >> that's what i'm thinking. >> and you also have a tour of the capitol and lunch with luke russert. >> the amazing luke russert, such a cutie pie. >> and let's talk about the ultimate new york power lunch. >> sweet thing. >> there you go. robert wolf, who is the head of ubs, us a tan goolsbee and mortgage zuckerman. >> really. >> and once you've done that you can go have lunch with michael moore which would be on the other side. >> i say you buy that, joe. you can get both. >> the power lunch is $13,000. >> that's a heck of a lot. >> willing to pay more to be with the financeiers and the pope, that's a fascinating get-together. >> that will change. >> the conversation, i can only imagine. it's great -- this conversation coming on the heels what have we just talked about with the

stengal and all the protests. fortunate to do work with kerry and the organization, and they do, i mean, the support she provides, the organization provides around the globe for people making real differences in communities and countries that are -- that are rife with conflict and hardship is really amazing so the money goes to a great, great cause. kerry can't be saluted enough to what she's doing. >> going to rise to a higher level and start talking about that soon here. i see maura campbell, lunch with luke skywalker. >> how much fun is that? >> not shabby. what's that going for right now. >> so -- >> $6,500. >> that's not bad. that's a bargain, don't you think? >> that's pretty good if he puts the light saber down. so talk about why you do this year in and year out. >> well, we're doing this to support the work for the rfk center for justice and human rights. we have a new education pact which you can get online. just go to www.rfkcenter.org on

bullying which, of course, is one of the biggest challenges facing schools across the country today. >> and they -- they have got, mika, of course, as we know, the anti-bullying curriculum. >> i like that a lot. >> tell us about that, because weave got such an extreme problem in today's schools. >> right. so they speak truth to power curriculum which is this is a part of is very interesting because we not only teach kids about certain human rights interests but we give them a tool kit for action so that they can create change in their classrooms, their communities and their country. >> there's so many different forms of bullying now because of the internet and all the contraptions kids have. it's sometimes hard to get a handle on it because they are so far down the road. >> seen a rash of teen suicides as a result of bullying. but there are real things that kids can do to protect themselves and -- and the bullies themselves need help as well. >> exactly.

>> so there's things that kids can do, but there are also things, you talk about parents can do and must do. >> parents must intervene and school administrators must intervene in the chapter that we use on bullying. the victim actually sued the school district, and there's now law that -- that school districts will be held responsible if they fail to intervene and protect children. >> talk about what your organization is doing right now and the importance of it in the world, remembering your father's work and projecting forward now 40 years, almost 45 years? >> that's right. you know, my father protected the alabama freedom riders. he marched with cesar chavez. he was against the vietnam war, and he brought together a constituency in america that we

really need today. you know, people say our country is so split. well, just think back to the 1960s and the split that our country faced then, and he was the only candidate who was able to bring together both poor whites and poor blacks, and -- >> how did he do that? >> well, i think because of his vision of justice and his belief that each one of us could make a difference, and i think that people really were inspired by him. i mean, you've said you got into politics because of my father's work. i think that's what we need today, a challenge to be called upon the better angels of our nature. >> i -- i don't ever like to speak for somebody that can't speak for themselves, but i feel confident in saying that if your father were alive today and he heard you say that, that i got into politics because of him, he'd be deeply disappointed. >> may be horrified. >> there was a book that talked

about the 1968 campaign. it talked about, of course, bobby kennedy's death. it talked about the train that -- that carried him and talked about how on one side of the tracks there were poor whites. on the other side there were poor blacks, and it was a remarkable chilling illustration that as the train went on, both sides turned around and went back to their communities, back to their homes, and there's been nobody since then that has been able to bring them back together. >> spoke to people as if they were all same, that people were equal. one of the great films that kerry will often show are moments in her father's life that we often see when we attend events is him speaking the night dr. king was assassinated, and he got up with such ease. now if he were living today, he would have been given a script by someone on his campaign, been urged by someone -- a consultant

to say this or say that. he spoke from his heart and spoke with a sincerity and clarity that everyone understood and it resonated with everyone. >> yeah. >> politics needs it not just on the racial divide, but we talked about it this morning with mick kinnon, with mark, about no labels. we need to figure out a way to have politicians speak honestly, plainly, openly and in a way that brings people together and we miss that today in large part. he would be deeply disappointed. >> no. >> you can talk about what happened on april 4th, 1968 with what jeff green felled, of course, his speech writer told me one time, he got up and did it himself with all the notes. i'll be damned. all the speech writers afterwards said that's the best speech he ever gave, and we had nothing to do with it. talk about the speech he also gave in june of 1966 in johannesburg. the u.s. government did not want him to go there.

he -- he didn't follow the rules. he tore up talking points. he -- he was driven by his own inner beliefs. >> that's right. and i think to -- to harold's point, he didn't just stay in -- in his office and listen to advisors. he really got out and spoke to people and visited with people. he went to sharpville in south africa which everybody said was too dangerous. when martin luther king was assassinated, the mayor said -- of indianapolis said you cannot go into the inner city. there will be a riot, and we cannot protect you, and he said i need to go and talk to people. and he was really all about connecting with genuine people and bearing his sole. he suffered himself so he related to people who suffered. >> kerry -- >> and that, by the way, that was the reason i was inspired to get into politics because that

night that he went into indianapolis, when the police said they couldn't even go in and protect him, that night chicago burned. los angeles burned. new york burned. almost 100 cities across america burned. that night because one man had the courage to go in, to that inner city, indianapolis went to sleep in peace. >> that's right. >> that's one person making a difference and he continues to make a difference through your work. thank you for being with us. >> kerry kennedy, thank you very much. >> you can get more information and a link to the auction at rfkcenter.org. >> and can you drink with harold ford jr. >> coffee. >> coffee to shots. >> shots of espresso. espresso shots. >> the bidding, by the way, ends tomorrow. kerry kennedy, thank you so much. up next, business before the bell. it's the mood of the markets with tyler mathieson. wow.

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hey, let's get a check on business before the bell with the anchor of cnbc's "power lunch," tyler mathisen. tyler, what's it looking like? >> hey, joe, looks like a sort of flat to down open for equities today, and an awful lot of the other assets like oil, gold, copper, they are all selling off. people are not really eager to take on much risk, and who really can blame them after all of the volatility that we've had and the ongoing issues in europe where the euro is at a multi-month low today, down below 130. that's good if you're traveling over to europe, lucky enough to get over there that holiday season, but certainly not good for the purchasing power of people who use the euro as their currency. i should point out that a couple of the companies that have reported earnings in the past couple of days, joe and mika, have really disappointed. take a look at best buy's numbers yesterday. they actually had increased sales and for the first time in something like six quarters

sales at same stores increased, but they have had to discount their products so much that their profits actually fell 30%. that's really the -- the tale of the retailing season here. people are going into the stores, they are spending. >> has best buy become a very important indicator for where this economy is over the past five years? >> it's -- it's an indicator in the sense that it is pointing to where some of the dollars are going. the dollars tend to be going to deep discounters, and they tend to be going to online vendors like amazon, and that certainly has hurt their business and squeezed their margins, folks. >> is that why we have a disappointing -- actually the numbers were adjusted downward for black friday and beyond, that it ended up the numbers weren't as great as we originally thought they were going to be. >> that's exactly right, and people went into the stores and they spent, but they bought at deep discount on black friday, and since then the retail traffic by more sort of

anecdotal measures has been not as good as it was over black friday. >> oh, boy. >> told you. he knew the mood of the market. >> does know the mood of the markets. it's mathisen's mood of the market >> mathisen's mood. >> that's right. >> tomorrow, rudy giuliani and bill bennett will be here. we're back with more of "morning joe" in just a moment. ♪ [ female announcer ] we never forget the nearly 12 million cancer survivors in america today... and the countless lives lost. we owe it to them to protect funding for cancer research, prevention and access to care.

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than ever before. take advantage of exceptional values during the season of audi event. seriously. perry comeau christmas special. welcome back to talk about what we learned day. learned a lot today but what have you learned? >> huntsman, it's not over. >> it ain't over till it's over. >> what have you learned, mika? >> i've learned that we can disagree disagreebly but that it's just the hurt talking when you get upset. >> that's right. >> we can agree to disagree. >> disagreebly, and if you would not wrinkle that paper while i'm talking! david gregory, i learned david gregory is a very good counsellor. >> he is. he's a mediator. he is the moderator of "meet the