on our blog. while you're on our website, you can find all the information you need to donate to the k.i.n.d. fund, kids in need of desks, or call 1-800-4-kids. good evening, americans. and welcome to "the ed show." tonight. the final bid of 2011 in sioux city, iowa. it may be the last chance for many of them to make a splash before the iowa caucuses coming up on january 3rd. newt gingrich was under attack for most of the night, but i thought he was very smooth. all of the candidates went after the number one opponent, president opponent -- president obama.

the vice chair of the democratic national committee. good to have you with us tonight. i want to start with this sound bite right here because mitt romney of course making the case again that the country is in terrible condition and says that america is in decline. here it is. >> this economy has every potential to continue to lead the world. our president thinks america is in decline. it is if he is president, it's not if i am president. >> what is your response to that right off the top tonight? >> 14 debates, 28 hours of our life will never get back, and these guys cannot give an answer to the big question, what would they do to fix the economy? president obama stepped up, 1.4 million americans in the auto industry are working, 1.4 million people, half the population of iowa are working today. mitt romney would have had them all out of work. i haven't heard a single idea,

except going back to the old bad days of george bush. >> how do you think president obama would have cared if she had been on the stage? >> president obama would have faired just fine. he is back in washington trying to get a middle-class tax cut that all of these guys are against. who in the world would think it's good for the economy to keep the middle class from getting a tax cut solely because the very top people should be getting a tax break? these guys have been debating all this time, but they do not have a clue about what to do. the president will do fine in the debate, but we are out here doing what we did in iowa four years ago. door-to-door, building a grass-roots. we have more obama offices opened in the republican candidates combined. >> governor romney was asked directly about newt gingrich. in his answer he refused to take a shot at the former speaker.

he directed all of his criticism toward president obama, which i found very interesting. here he is not being the front runner, and yet he is not attacking newt gingrich. he went after the president for how he handled the general motors situation. >> in the real world, some things don't make it, and i believe i have learned from my successes and failures. mr. president, how did you do when you were running general motors? you closed down factories, closed down dealerships treadwell, i did that to some of the business. same thing with us, mr. president. we did our very best to make those businesses succeed. i have learned the lessons on how the economy works. this president doesn't know how the economy works. it helps to create jobs. >> what is your response to the fact that mr. -- president obama doesn't know how to create jobs according to ms. romney? >> you have to laugh.

as corporate takeover is talking to -- that is what he did for a living. he made a lot of money at doing that. president obama stepped up and saved the auto industry. mitt romney would have closed it, pierre and simple. >> of those candidates use saw tonight, who came away in the best position to win iowa? >> i was asking people as they were coming out of here. a lot of them were saying that newt gingrich came out. there is a lot of sediment for ron paul. i do not think anyone can tell you where this is going to go. it is superfluid appear that is the horse race. these people have been campaigning for a long time. romney has been on the ground for five years and none of them are catching on. they have nothing new to offer except the fact they are not barack obama. barack obama is probably pleased about that, and the american people should said if all you can say is you are not barack obama and expect four years

trying to stop him, maybe if he got out of the way and have a congress that can work with him. that is what is going to happen. >> vice chair of the democratic national committee, good to have you with us. thanks so much. that's turned to ennis nbc political analyst, richard wolfe, e.j. dionne, senior fellow at the brookings institution, and crystal ball. we have a lot to talk about. great to have all of you here. newt gingrich obviously was the target tonight because he is the front runner. i thought probably the best person who got him tonight was michelle bachman, probably the most aggressive on newt gingrich was michelle bachman. in this exchange about his alleged career as a lobbyist, here it is. >> we know that he cashed paychecks from three. that is the best evidence you can have third over $1.6 million. frankly, i am shocked listening

to the former speaker of the house because he is defending the continuing practice of freddie mac and fannie mae. there is a big difference between a credit union and freddie mac and fannie mae. they were the epicenter of the financial meltdown. i was trying to see these entities put into bankruptcy because they need to go away. when the speaker had his hand out and was taking $1.6 million to influence senior republicans to keep the scam going out and in washington d.c. . that is absolutely wrong. >> that's just not true. what she just said is factually not true. i never lobbied under any circumstance. some of these people ought to have sex before they make wild allegations. >> after the break last week, everything that i said was true. evidence is that speaker gingrich took $1.6 million. you don't have to be within the

technical definition of being a lobbyist to be influenced paddling with senior republicans in washington d.c. to get them to do your bidding. >> i want to state unequivocally for any person watching tonight, i have never once changed my positions because of any kind of payment, because the truth is i was a national figure who was doing just fine. >> richard wolfe, who wins in that exchange? >> i don't know why newt has such a problem talking about lobbying. republicans don't care about lobbying. he is a problem with freddie mac. when he tried to suggest that he was habitat for humanity. it's not. they hate three, they hate its role in the market meltdown. they hate the idea of a

government-sponsored enterprise. it doesn't matter, they don't care about the lobbying. that was his weakest position for the rest of the debate. >> e.j. dionne, there is a lot of talk about them saying they can change the way washington works, yet the front runner is about as washington as you can get. your thoughts on that exchange with bachman. >> all the people who have been attacked by newt gingrich over the years in pretty harsh terms will be amused to hear him say people ought to have facts before they make wild allegations. i think that exchange, i agree with richard, it was the one moment in the debate where i thought he was on the defensive. when you have to begin a statement with words like, i never once did x, you are not in a good place. she stayed aggressive. endorsing a government-sponsored enterprise, i don't have anything against those in

principle, but a lot of conservatives do. having said that, i think he was very strong in the beginning and end. he even made fun of himself when he talked about romney's accusation that he has any ideas. he says he does not want to look zany tonight. other than that moment of dislodged him from this front runner status. >> can i add one more element about this michelle bachman exchange because polls are showing that newt gingrich has a problem with women. in polls, women rate him about 18 points more negatively than favorably. he has -- it wasn't just the one instance that you played. time and time again in this debate he said to michelle bachman, you are wrong and don't have your facts straight. he came back at him and said i am serious candidate for president and made him look like he was patronizing her. i think that could be another

issue for him in appealing to women. >> crystal, the you think that he solidified his conservative credentials tonight when he talked about his 30-year position as a conservative? i thought he was very smooth and convincing on that. >> i think he was for most of the debate, but that moment when he was defending the government-sponsored enterprises. most people don't really know what those are, but to conservative year, it sounds socialism. that is a moment that it wrongly and others will seize on. >> richard, why didn't permit romney go after newt gingrich tonight? >> net rummy have to show a backbone. the idea here is that he has to knock him down and show that he has some gumption to him. by the way, the government-sponsored enterprise, they don't have a problem with that when you are a defense contractor. if you are a government

supported, that's fine, but for newt -- knew it was so much more eloquent and fluid about a whole range of subjects. i think mitt romney's position was actually that he pulled his punches. he was still trying to pretend that key was the great private sector champion. he pulled out that gm comparison, which did not make much sense. >> did anybody rectify themselves tonight, maybe the governor of texas? what do you think? >> he may be getting somewhere on this debate. he didn't make any big mistakes. he actually looked fairly calm, almost resigned in his position. >> even said he was getting better at it. he thinks he's getting better at the whole doggone thing. go ahead. >> i just want to say, romney looked happier tonight. i don't think he scored points, but he looked better than he has in the last couple of debates.

>> he has the money in the bank to make those negative attacks about him having to do it directly. that is part of the strategy too. >> great to have all of you with us tonight. we appreciate you coming in for analysis. my exclusive interview with house democratic leader, nancy pelosi. this is the ebb show. stay tune. we will be right back. relied ong children holiday joy, and while it doesn't travel by sleigh or reindeer, it does get around... in fact, every year duracell sends loads of batteries to the mattel children's hospital, u.c.l.a. of course, children here and everywhere don't really think about which battery makes their toy run... but, still... you'd never want to disappoint. duracell. trusted everywhere. the other office devices? they don't get me. they're all like, "hey, brother, doesn't it bother you that no one notices you?" and i'm like, "doesn't it bother you you're not reliable?"

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more analysis of the republican debate with the panel coming up. nancy pelosi on income inequality, republican obstruction in congress and her plans to take back the house in 2012. stay tuned. ♪

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in the debate tonight in iowa, the republican candidates went after president obama on foreign policy again and again they said he is weak. >> president obama's actions invited war. >> absolutely. the right course under obama's pants is to shrink our boggle t. >> i am at present joined by richard wolf . alsoball.

also john saltz, and iraq war veteran. john, let's start with you. there's a lot of saber rattling going on. when i was listening to rick santorum i thought we were going to get hit with the iranians. the depiction that obama is weak, fair or unfair? >> completely false. he finally ended the war that supercharged al qaeda recruiting, strengthened iran, because as we invaded iraq, there's tremendous influence there. what president obama, he has done things the republicans never could do. he has a very effective counter-terror campaign across the world and ended a world that's supercharged recruiting. they are the reason we're less safe. the president is the reason the number one bad guy is dead. >> richard, the president was criticized tonight for not bombing iran over a drone. >> a drone. we're in a situation where the republican field the most sane person is ron paul that's how

ridiculous it is. rick perry cannot remember a more fuddled foreign policy? axelrod tweeted -- wonder if bin laden and demolished al qaeda leadership agree with mitt that president obama is timid on national security. shouldn't this be the answer that every time president obama is weak? e.j., is this proper? >> i think you'll hear the name of osama bin laden come up a lot in this campaign. if you look at the polls f. barack obama's strongest numbers are on his foreign policies. americans wanted the war in iraq to end several years ago. they are not. they're in favor of a withdrawal from afghanistan that he has started. they want to go faster. i think the republicans really do sound like they are from about five, six, seven years

ago. the rhetoric they're using now may still appeal in a republican primary, but it's just not where the country is at all right now. >> crystal, why is ron paul surging in the polls in iowa? he got quite a bit of response tonight when he talked about, you know, not having international intervention and not being so anxious to get into all these wars. this is in the middle of the country, and ron paul is being cheered tremendously by iowans tonight. what did you make of that is is that why he's surging in. >> actually i think the reason he's surging is he's someone, whether you agree with him or not, he does not pander. that's something i respect about him. he tells you exactly what he thinks. he's had a phenomenal on the ground operation, and i think he's been smart in his campaign. he's also been more focused this time around than in 2008 on his economic policies, which are

very popular among the conservative base. that being said, i think there is a lid on his support, because his extreme isolationist views are out of line with the republican base, as appealing as i find some of them to be. let's go back to newt gingrich for a moment. i thought he really asked for the order tonight, saying that he's a staunch conservative, giving a 30-year record of it, but he compared himself to ronald reagan running in 1979. here it is. >> i've been around long enough that i remember at this exact time in 1979, when ronald reagan was running 30 points behind jimmy carter, and if people had said, gosh, electability is the number one issue, they wouldn't have nominated him. >> richard wolffe, how does that play? what do you think? >> the problem is he can remember 30 years ago as if it was yesterday, though he did confuse being someone in washington for 30 years, bill clinton and jimmy carter.

yes, he can say i've always been a conservative. he's not trying to fool people. that's the implicit contrast with mitt romney, but he's been there 340 years, this is his fourth decade in washington. is he from another era? that's the problem that marine voters will face? are they moving forward or going back? >> e.j., is that one skeleton that newt gingrich has gotten rid of, that he's maybe convinced iowa voters that he is a conservative? >> i just think it's very hard to convince anyone that newt gingrich is not a conservative. richard is right that 1980 was a long time ago, but first of all, the republican primary and caucus electorate is really old, and secondly every conservative remembers that democrats better saying that ronald reagan was the easiest guy to beat. they love to bring that up with democrats. and so i think that line resonated with the audience that

he was talking to. not necessarily with other audiences, but with the audience he needed to care about. >> john saltz, richard wolffe, e.j. dionne, crystal, i appreciate you being here. coming up, my exclusive interview with nancy pelosi. her thoughts on the democrats' chances in 2012, and if she thinks her former house colleague newt gingrich has a shot at the presidency. stay tuned. you won't want to miss it. [ male announcer ] what if you have potatoes?

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still to come tonight on "the ed show" my exclusive interview with house democrat ecleader nancy pelosi. she talks about the divide in washington and slams republicans for protecting the wealthy at the expense of the middle class. pelosi also weighs in on the tragic income inequality in this country, and tells us why she's putting her foot down on the bush tax cuts finally. i also found out what she thinks about her former colleague newt gingrich as a possible president and why she is optimistic about the democrats chances in this 2012. it was a great conversation. we'll bring it to you next. later former new york governor eliot spitzer and msnbc political analyst eugene

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the payroll tax holiday is set to expire for 160 million working americans. more than 2 million of the nation so the government should shut down if a deal is not reached. these are the consequences i think of a republican obstruction in congress. today, house democratic leader nancy pelosi didn't tiptoe around the real reason this republican-dominated congress can't get anything done for the middle class. >> we're all haunt the by senator mcconnell saying the single-most important thing we want to achieve is for president obama to be a one-term president. the single-most important thing we want to achieve -- not the single most important thing we want to do is create jobs, to grow our economy to educate or

children, to keep our country safe. the most important thing is to make the president a one-term president. >> i am joined tonight by nancy pelosi, leader, thank you for being here tonight. >> a pleasure. welcome to washington, ed. >> i have to ask you, have you ever seen the divide in this government as great as it is now, the atmosphere? >> well, it is a difficult time, no question about that. it was terrible when the gingrich republican majority in congress set out to impeach president clinton. that was not a very good time, either. but what's interesting now is just to see how brazen the republicans are when we need to have a tax -- payroll tax cut that will, as you said, help 160 million americans, and they are not saying one receipt cent from 300,000 americans who make over a million a year. that's stunning. >> what kind of progress was made today, if any? how close are you to a deal on the payroll tax holiday,

unemployment and potential shutdown? >> we're moving toward agreement. i hope it will be possible. it always gets harder as you get toward the end. our appropriators have worked in a bi35r9 san way. we think the bill is much improved, because the republicans wanted to avoid having to go to the payroll tax debate, but now they will have to. so i'm optimistic that there will not be a government shutdown. >> there will not be? >> there will not be. >> you're optimistic about that? >> i'm optimistic about that. >> i hear it on the radio all the time, i get a lot of e-mail, people in the progressive movement are afraid the democrats will cave in. what are you willing to give up to get this deal, if anything? >> we have to go forward to get the payroll tax cut. the point is that i think the president and the democratic members of congress have made the payroll tax cut too hot for the republicans to handle. remember in the beginning, they were not even going to hear of

doing such a thing. then they passed a bill, which made it practically impossible to enact, but now they'll have to come closer to that. we still have to continue to make the fight. it's not just about the payroll tax cut, it's about tax fairness, even if we don't have the surcharge on those making over a million, we still have to address the issue of tax fairness. >> does that mean there will be a revenue component in this deal, that you will get the wealthiest americans to serve up some revenue? >> i don't think so, but i don't think that that issue is off the table as we go forward, but in any arrangement now to keep government open, you saw the announcement was made that they couldn't get 60 votes in the senate, the obstructionist republicans there. >> what about pay freezes for federal employees, about what cuts of some 200,000 employees on the federal payroll? >> it was interesting that they would say in order to get a

payroll tax cut to 160 million americans, which is very important to those families, $1500 in the pockets of 160 million working americans, that injects demand, creates job, it's not only important to the family, it has macroeconomic impact as do the extent of the unemployment insurance, but again, don't touch one hair on the head of the wealthiest people in our country making 300,000 wealthiest families. again, it's an issue that we will have with us because we're on two different paths about fairness and opportunity in our country. >> what is fairness? what are you driving at here? >> what i call fairness is democrats are commit to do reigniting the american dream, to build ladders of opportunity, so that all americans will work hard, play by the rules, take responsibility, can reach

success. we have work to do, and we have to make sure that, as we build that, we build it on a strong foundation. that fairs in for the middle class cannot come unless we have a change in reform on how campaigns are financed, because the role of big money, special-interest money in campaigns just snuffs out the voice of millions of people in our country. >> i want to talk more about campaign finance reform and what the does thats want to do, but are you convinced that this will not be viewed by democrats and liberals in this country as a cave-in to the republicans? at the end of the day to this deal, it will be acceptable to the democrats? >> i certainly hope it will be, because it is -- we have to have the payroll tax. we want we were not going home for the holidays unless we had it. now we'll have to have some form of it and continue and continue the fight. but this is -- this issue of --

you have to give republicans credit. they really stick with the guy which brung them to the dance. they protect the wealthy. it's hard to understand, because they have said these taxes at the high end, they'll create jobs. they didn't. we had all of this during the bush years. think of this, ed. in the second year of the obama administration, more jobs were created in the private sector than in the eight years of the bush administration combined. >> the republicans eventually want to get the bush tax cuts permanent. >> yeah. >> is there any way you would ever agree to that? >> no. no. >> so they will compare and that won't be a part of this deal? >> no. no. the fact is i was disappointed that they were extended for the -- >> last year. >> for the time period that they were. but the fact is that this is the end of that -- well, of course we have to let president obama,

president of the united states, and we have to elect a democratic congress that i feel confident we can, but even just electing the president, has said this is a centerpiece of his campaign, the tax cuts will not be extended. they don't create jobs, they increase the deficit. it's totally unfair, and again necessitate in order to be fiscally sound, cuts and investments in the competitiveness of our country and the education of our children. >> but if there's not going to be a revenue component on the extension of the payroll tax holiday, and the unemployment benefits will be extended, you're confident they are, and it won't be a government shutdown, where is the money coming from? >> i didn't say there wasn't going to be a revenue component. i said there wouldn't be a surchargesh. >> where will the revenue come from? >> we'll see. that's what's going on between senator reid and -- leader reid and leader mcconnell to see

where they can get 60 votes. as you know, a majority doesn't count unless you have 60 votes. >> dodds any scenario being played out where middle-class americans might have to pay a little more? >> i certainly hope not, but i also think that as we -- what we had hoped the super committee could do was to address the entrepreneurial spirit of america, create jobs, invest in small businesses, education essentially to innovation, and all of that, and that everybody would take some responsibility for reducing the deficit. >> leader pelosi, we talk about this chart a lot on "the ed show" the income gap. over the last 30 years we have see the blue line as wage earners, the red line is where the top 2% has gone over the last 30 years. census shows 1 out of every 2 americans are poor or in low income. >> that's stunning. >> 77% of americans say the top

1% in corporations have too much power. what do you tell these americans? i mean, what has to comment to turn that around, if democrats continue to extend tax cuts and seem to cave in with what republicans want all the time. >> i don't ascribe to that characterization. we're fighting the fight. that chart you have has a big gap. it's immoral, and it's gotten greater and greater, and it's happened at the same time as product activity has increased in our country, so you think wages could at least follow product activity to a certain extent, but they haven't. the statistics that came out today about the number of people in poverty or low income, near poverty, is a stunning one, but that's what -- that's the decision that elections are about, the two different paths that we're on, and that gap union mines or democracy,

undermining the middle class and undermines or democracy. this is a bigger issue than just one's view of economics. it's about how you sustain a middle class, which is the backbone of our democracy. >> house leader nancy pelosi, stay with us. we'll have more with democratic leader nancy pelosi after thismt you're watching "the ed show" on msnbc. ttd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about the typical financial consultation ttd# 1-800-345-2550 when companies try to sell you something off their menu ttd# 1-800-345-2550 instead of trying to understand what you really need. ttd# 1-800-345-2550 ttd# 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, we provide ttd# 1-800-345-2550 a full range of financial products, ttd# 1-800-345-2550 even if they're not ours. ttd# 1-800-345-2550 and we listen before making our recommendations, ttd# 1-800-345-2550 so we can offer practical ideas that make sense for you. ttd# 1-800-345-2550 ttd# 1-800-345-2550 so talk to chuck, and see how we can help you, not sell you. ttd# 1-800-345-2550

coming up on "the ed show" more with house democratic leader nancy pelosi. her thoughts on the gop field and the plans to take back the house. stay tuned. [ male announcer ] cranberry juice? wake up! ♪ that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm [ male announcer ] for half the calories -- plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8.

well cub back to "the ed show." breaks news. associated press reports that congressional negotiators are preparing a two-month deal on payroll tax cuts. jobless benefits. we are back with house democratic leader nancy pelosi on "the ed show." how does that news hit you? >> hopefully we'll still be able

to get the full extension of the payroll tax cut for another year, unemployment insurance, and sgr. this is a possibility if that's not possible. i don't know that the longer negotiation is over. what's important to node about this is that it keeps the fight going on. that no people will lose -- i would think this is okay as long as no beneficiary of unemployment insurance loses their benefits in that time frame, because depending on how you write the bill, that's important, but it keeps it in the public eye this stings. do you support a payroll tax cut for 160 million americans, and are you willing to not do anything about 300,000 families which make -- not have, but make a million aee. it's really important for people to understand how protective of

the upperer-income people they are. >> what position does this put you? you have a two-month window to negotiate and really what you want? what do you make of that? >> what i make of it is what it means to that kitchen table that many americans are sitting around. >> does this -- >> i think so. i think the longer we're talking about the middle-income tax country, the better it is to make us change to understand who wants the tax cut and who wants to protect the 300,000 in the country. >> will the democrats have two more months to sell to the american people that the wealthier have to pay more? >> i particularly like the part where he talked about the big role that money plays in

elections and that that has to stop. i don't like this us against them kind of attitude, but the fact is that if you're saying you can't have a middle-income tax cut, republicans have said the high-end tax cuts should be made permanent, and they don't believe in extending tax cuts for payroll tax cuts. >> speaking of the president's speech in kansas, he said this that really caught my attention. this is a make-or-break moment for the middle class and all those fighting to get into the middle class at stake is whether we'll be a country where working people can earn enough to raise a family, build a modest savings, own a home and security their retirement. he had more of a fighting spirit, and i know some democrats have told me that, in negotiations, the liberals want one thing, the democrats and

conservatives, republicans want something. president obama seems to go to the middle to cut to the deal right away and that's frustrated a lot of people. >> i don't see that, no. i will say that, first of all, we're very fortunate to have such a brilliant, dedicated values-based president of the united states. what i have seen sitting at that table i think all americans would be very proud of fighting in a values-based way for middle-income families every step of the way. dao vu that speech as somewhat of a turning point? >> i think it was a very important speech, because i love what teddy roosevelt did, the truth buster and age of the robber barons, coming forth, talking about the middle class. in the speech that teddy roosevelt made in 1910, he talked about the corruptive role of money in politics, corporate money in politics. so in the spirit of teddy roosevelt and harkening back to that speech, i thought it was

great, a great speech, and important message for the american people, and important distinction to make about the two different paths to take our country down. but he said it in a way that it was about all americans, unifying all americans. >> i have to ask you about newt gingrich. do you find him trustworthy? >> i'm not going to say one word about newt gingrich. i think his campaign will sdpe for itself and it's up to the republicans to nominate who they want to nominate. it's interesting to watch. >> do you think he'll be a good president? >> no, absolutely not. no, no, i won't say that. >> is a big play to the middle class going to be one of the major things for the democrats to take back the house? >> no, this is not about democrats or republicans, this is about our country. as the president said, this is a really very important moment. it's pivotal, but also perishable. we have to take advantage of the

time we have now, and nothing makes the distinction clearer -- not one red cent from the 300,000 welt jest families in america, and we just really don't feel like doing a tax cut to the middle class. what i've said is they didn't want to do it, and then they -- then they did it, but they did it in a way that a young woman would say to someone who asked you to marry you, yes, i agree to marry you, i can just do it on the 30th of february. that day is never coming, and the day is never coming, and the president will be signing a bill that is unfair to the middle class. >> can you take the house back? >> yes, we can. under the leadership of steve israel, our chairman, we are on a drive for 25. we feel very confident about it. we've outraised the republicans, if you can imagine that. our small donors have saved the day for us. we want to increase their voice in the process, and we had great candidates who care about our

country. i will say this, and it's not just about empowering people in terms of offsetting big money by small contributions. it's about removing obstacles to their participation any polls, which the republicans are throwing up every step of the way. so that the power of the few outweighs the power of the many, that's not the american way. >> nancy pelosi, thank you for joining us. >> i appreciate t happy holidays to you, ed. >> and to you. coming up eugene robinson and former new york governor eliot spitzer with analysis of my interview with house democratic leader nancy pelosi. you're watching "the ed show" on msnbc.

up nest eugene robinson and, to discuss my interview and possible deal to avoid government shutdown. stay tuned. ♪

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to avoid long-term injury seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than 4 hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision, stop taking cialis and call your doctor right away. [ male announcer ] ask your doctor if cialis for daily use is right for you. for a 30-tablet free trial offer, go to cialis.com. welcome back to "the ed show." we reported a two-month extension for the payroll tax holidays, that's what they're working on, and to prevent a government shutdown. joining me for analysis is msnbc political analyst and "the washington post" columnist eugene robinson, and also former governor eliot spitzer of new york. great to have you with us tonight. eugene, where's the money going to come from? i think that's the big question right now. >> we don't know. the answer is we don't know.

administration officials have been very cagey and indefinite in terms of their idea of where the money is going to come from. granted, we were talking in terms of a longer-range extension of unemployment insurance and the payroll tax holiday. now if we're only talking about two months, obviously that's less money that has to be found, by my understanding of the republican negotiating position is that you've got to find the money somewhere, so where does that money come from? >> the congress doesn't want to hurt anybody, but they can't make up their mind on exactly how they're going to pay for this. >> exactly. >> so i guess they'll be home for the holidays. >> let's go home for the holidays and we'll talk about it later. >> i keep hearing from core democrats, they don't want a cave-in at all. how much of a tightreap is this for the democrats? >> it is a tightrope. it's good for the economy to

extend the payroll tax cut. it's good politics if this issue continues to be the fulcrum for the debate. good for us, because we clearly win the debate at this level, as nancy pelosi junior -- but let me put an overlay on this. what concerns me, ed and gene, is that if this is the entirety of what we're talking about to get our economy moving again, we're not going to make the progress we need to make, and so i think while this is good short-term stuff, we need a much broader conversation to get our economy back to where it needs to go. >> so the democrats have not gotten what they wanted so far, gene? >> they haven't gotten it, ed. what we're hearing from administration officials, and there was a briefing day with a couple senior officials, they say we're going to continue this fight. we want to make sure that nobody gets hurt right now, and the economy doesn't get hurt right

now. we want to me sure that unemployment insurance is extended, the payroll tax holiday is extended. we know that republicans have dug in their heels on the kinds of stimulative measures, and in the kinds of investment that need to take place for this economy to get going, but we're going to continue that fight, and if necessary, we'll continue it into the next year. >> elliott, is this a win for the democrats tonight? >> i don't think we know yet. i think this is a stalemate, just a continuation of the gridlock the public is tired of. i think the question is, can the president build on what i thought was a spectacular speech, sort of embracing the mantle of teddy roosevelt and make -- if he does so, he will wen win. if he lapses back into the sort of -- that dominated the first two years, i think the public will lose enthusiasm. we don't know yet if it's a win. i still believe the economy will

dictate the outcome. i don't see enough stimulus to get us moving forward at a pace that makes me comfortable. and in the midst of that, leader pelosi is convinced they can get the house back, they are counting on the lower-end donors to pull them through this thing. >> that's what they're counting on. eliot is absolutely right, that continuing this discussion does seem to be good political for the democrats. its not inconceivable that republicans will get enough heat, as we roll into the election year, and as they hear from their constituents, they'll start getting enough heat that maybe they're willing to move a bit. i'm not guaranteeing that, they've been so steadfast in drawing their line, and they've been really unified, but we'll have to see what they hear from their constituents over the holiday. >> what is the best play for the white house right now, governor? >> you know, i think the white

house -- the white house wins out of this, because it means that two months from now, the president once again will be able to frame of debate as he, the president, standing up for the middle class, extending a tax cut to the middle class, needing to drag the republican party to that, as leader pelosi said, while the republican party defense tax cuts and wants to make permanent tax cuts for the rich. that's why i'm surprised that the democrats didn't want to get rid of this issue for the entirety of next year, push it all overening the '12 elections and until then debate everything under the sun. >> we are told tonight the extension of the bush tax cuts is off the table. she says this is the end. >> yeah. >> well, i certainly hope so. that means that more money will be coming into the treasury. gene robinson, eliot spitzer, great to have both of with us. that's "the ed show." i'm ed shultz. listen to my on channel 127 monday through friday n