from hot air ballooning to white water rafting to selling fish, small business in america takes many forms. we travel around the country as we celebrate a new season of small business lessons. that's all coming up next on "your business." small businesses are revitalizing the economy, and american express open is here to help. that's why we are proud to present "your business," on msnbc.

hi there, everyone. i'm j.j. ramberg, and welcome to a special edition of "your business." today, we celebrate the start of our sixth year giving you tips and advice to help your business grow. as a small business owner myself, i've learned so many great lessons by getting involved in the issues and operations of some great american small businesses. in west virginia, i picked up a paddle to find out how three once-competing white water rafting companies merged both their companies, and their cultures. ♪ once upon a time in the wild and wonderful mountains of west virginia, there were three river rafting companies. classics river runners, mountain river tours, and rivermen. they had all started in the 1970s, and each had their very own personalities.

they were friendly competitors, and they all loved running the business they were running. so you can only imagine what it was like when the owners of these companies were approached about merging their operations into one. >> when paul first told me, i really wasn't interested. i actually said no. we had a good gig going. we were growing. we were making money. not a lot. but we were paying our bills. >> that's brian campbell the founder of rivermen. the paul he's referring to is paul bugler, a former financial guy who spent his weekends as a river guy. a few years ago paul saw an opportunity to change his job, his lifestyle, and become the ceo of a new, or sort-of-new, company. >> first thing i realized in this industry, they were very profitable at one time and because of overcapacity, price cutting, and a little bit of a decline in revenue to the users, that they weren't nearly as profitable. and that to make this work, i was going to have to do merge at least two, if not three

together. >> and that's how the idea for the lansing west virginia based adventures on the gorge was born. paul approached all three company owners. everyone involved sensed that a deal wouldn't be a simple one. >> i did see some challenges because we were competitors, for sure. and you know, that relationship, we had to work on. >> but soon enough, paul was able to convince them that the key to their collective survival was joining forces. >> there's a point in a family business where the family is necessary for its survival. there's a point in a business where the business outgrows the family. and the rivermen were at that point. >> so they came to an agreement, got a team of investors, and each founding owner maintains partial ownership in the new company. with paul serving as the ceo. while the founding companies all fall under the adventures on the gorge umbrella, the brands themselves live on independently. when i walk around this campus here, i still see logos for all three companies. why do that?

it seems more expensive and maybe a bit confusing to your company. >> the loyalty is to the brand. in lots of cases these companies have been around for 30-plus years. when you say the rivermen or you say class 6, they automatically become emotional and tied to that brand. >> but adventures on the gorge means nothing to them. >> adventures on the gorge means nothing to them, and that's the tricky part. >> many employees who lived through the merger are still quite loyal to the individual brands. >> i found a lot of the back room operations, housekeeping, accounting, maintenance, even the reservation staff, office staff, were easy to merge. most difficult have been the guides. >> because they were the personalities and competitors, really. >> they're competitors. and anybody that is in charge of eight people for a day, getting them down a river safely, has got to have an ego. and some of them have very large egos. >> paul had another challenge besides merging the personalities of the companies. with the investment money he raised to form adventures on the gorge he wanted to do something

none of the three original companies had done before. and that meant looking beyond the white water. >> our strategy is very simple. we need people to stay longer. and do more things. and you can run two or three different rivers. you can participate in a kayak school. you can take a climbing and rappelling class. you can do mountain bike tours. you can do horseback tours. you do atv tours. the zip lines have been the biggest product we've expanded into. we now have two zip line courses. >> with all the new activities and a bunch of new accommodations the adventures on the gorge was turned into a true all-inclusive destination. >> the future was a resort, the future was, you know, more lodging, restaurants, and a variety of scenarios. >> sometimes, radical change needs to happen. it has made us much more profitable. it has made us a much stronger company. we've been able to reinvest in things. >> after three years, paul says

he's incredibly proud of what they've been able to accomplish, in both merging cultures and building out the companies. but he says they're nowhere near done yet. one day he hopes that these three companies will truly be one. >> as time goes on it will take more prominence. and you'll see it being on top of that name brands, and as time goes on, you'll see the flip-flop go on, and some day, it's our goal that adventures on the gorge will be the primary brand that is associated with the adventure resort. >> we always talk on this program about the challenge of making your product or service stand out from the rest. i traveled to california's beautiful napa valley where i took to the skies to find out how a hot air balloon company was able to rise above the competition. ♪ look up in the sky on any clear

morning in california's napa valley, and this is what you see. hot air balloons flying high above, dotting the sky with their colorful canvases. to anyone on the ground, these balloons, and the rides taken in them, seem indistinguishable. but the pilots, and the owners, know exactly who is who. >> those are some of the balloons, one is napa valley balloons. >> nielsen rogers and his wife carol ann founded their company, above the west, in 1979. and started working at it full-time soon after. >> and i used to have a real job. and then after the merger and acquisition, you know, either pay too much or you know too much and get fired. >> when they began there wasn't much competition. only one other company. today, there are six. and any tourists looking to book a ride can find a bunch of flyers that frankly don't look that different from each other. carol ann says she works very

hard at making above the west stand out. >> actually think that's one of the hardest things to do. from a marketing point of view. >> early on, the rogers decided that they were not going to compete on price. that that was just a losing battle. >> we realized that if we lowered our price $5, they'd lower theirs $5. >> the problem with having price be the only thing that differentiates you is that there will always be someone who is less expensive than you are. >> today, they're the most expensive company in the area. they charge one flat nonnegotiable rate. doing things a bit differently from some of the competition. >> everyone is able to sort of move up right under us with their -- their stated price, but then they discount under that to get more people. >> they say that their pricing may turn off some people, but those aren't the customers they're after. >> the passengers that come with us, i think they are more interested in value than in price.

>> because of the high prices, they're able to offer a more customized experience, taking up fewer passengers, only doing one trip per balloon a day which limits waiting time, things that endear them to other luxury services around the area. shirley quick is the manager of a high-end hotel nearby. >> we feel confident when we recommend nielsen and carol ann's company, that they're going to get the same level of service that they would get from us. >> all of these choices, the pricing, the limited rides, have also limited the rogers' ability to grow the company. >> were we to decide to get really big, we would have to change what we do. it -- we are the size we are because we want to be the size we are. we think that's the best way to offer really excellent experience to our customers. >> that said, carol ann admits that there are times she and nielsen look across the sky and have a moment of wondering. >> sometimes you do look at

someone else who maybe is flying more people, and you think, well, gosh, you know, maybe we should just do what they -- what they do. >> but then she says she comes back to her senses. >> you have to think long-term. because there's a lot of short-term marketing strategies that could change things for you a little bit. but then have consequences for you in the long run. >> and knowing that you have a strategy that you're going to stick to gives you time to focus on what business is really all about. >> i enjoy it. i enjoy it. >> when i walked into diane's cleveland based store and met her my first impression was, this woman is a spitfire. she's a woman in a male dominated business, and it was her touch which turned this gun store business around, in part by appealing to an underserved demographic. [ gunfire ] >> your pump action shotguns make a very distinct noise.

your burglars or your criminals, they all know that noise. the chances of them walking away after that is another story. >> there's no question about who's in charge here. but for some customers of this cuyahoga county, ohio, gun shop, diane can be a bit of a surprise. >> i shot people, you know, from time to time, because i am a woman who knows about guns. >> diane not only knows about guns, she buys them, sells them, and teaches people to use them. >> i want you to go ahead and put your finger on the trigger. >> properly. >> that's good trigger control. >> she's one of a small number of female gun store operators in the country. >> believe it or not there's more than you think. it's just they're all behind the scenes. where i'm out front, here, most of the gun shops, they're family businesses. the men are the out front but the women are in the back learning it. >> diane, who runs the whole

show at stonewall gun shop, from stock room to show room, never planned to have a career dealing in firearms. it was her husband who got her into it. >> he had more experience with firearms. i really didn't know anything about firearms. >> tell me about the first time you shot a gun. >> oh, my god. well, let's see. the flame went out that way, the casing went out that way, hit me in the head. i set the gun down and said, this is not for me. i just -- i was just -- it was just totally freaked me out. >> diane didn't stay freaked out for long. in fact, she discovered she has a knack for the business. and a taste for the sport. [ gunfire ] >> it's like with anything that any woman gets into, if you're going to run any type of business, you've got to know what you're doing. you've got to know your product. you've got to be able to sell it. lean out, you're going to push out. okay? and put the magazine in.

i'm going to release the slide and when you're ready go ahead and fire. >> oh. where did it hit? >> right there. >> and i can tell you, firsthand, she certainly knows what she's doing when it comes to operating firearms. >> you've got your slide. thumb up, all right. okay, face forward. whoo! >> i toll you you were going to get it. okay. >> and after 17 years in the business, she rarely takes her eye off the target. >> i don't want to say i'm meticulous, because i'm not, but i'm very detailed when it comes to buying, and i have to laugh when i go to the different shows, my reps, you know, they'll say, can i help? i say, yeah, just stay out of my way. you know. >> staying out of her way has certainly benefitted the shop's investors. >> when we took over, the old owners were doing about $300,000 a year. we're at over $2 million. >> some of that increase in profit comes from cultivating a

whole new class of customers. women. >> the majority of women, you know, do feel more comfortable talking to another woman about -- about firearms. >> do you attract more female customers? >> i believe, yes, we do. but it's not only just because i'm here. it's because my guys. i have a great staff here. they have their days when i'd like to wring their necks. but i do have a great staff. and they listen to the women. >> teresa, diane's number two in the stonewall back office, agrees. >> every day you see more and more women coming in. you see whole families coming in. not -- it's a lot different than what it was when i started here two years ago. >> you're going to shoot together, right? >> yes. >> okay, you need anything? >> box of shells. >> box of shells, .38 specials. >> any time you add another customer demographics to your industry, you're going to make,

you know, more money, because you're going to get more clientele. >> bringing in women isn't the only reason her store has thrived. diane credits her savvy investors for choosing to put their profits back into the business. >> well, i got a lot of different guns here, and all the different calibers. >> this is how you run your company? you do not take no for an answer. you will bargain somebody down, and by the time someone walks out the door you will have gotten what you wanted. >> most of the time, yeah. >> after 17 years, diane may be full of bravado. but she still remembers how overwhelming it felt to start up a business from scratch. >> when i came in, knowing nothing about it, i literally got down on my hands and knees, and gave the business to the lord, and said, you've got to walk me through this, because i don't know what i'm doing. and he has been, you know, my support, my wings, all the way through.

>> still ahead, we continue to celebrate the start of our sixth season with a look at how a colorado dog sledding company had to start an ancillary business in order to survive. and coming down the pike, i'm up to my gills in tuna as i flounder around at the fulton fish market to learn how to negotiate. ♪ sam: i'm sam chernin. owner of sammy's fish box. i opened the first sammy's back in 1966. my employees are like family. and, i want people that work for me to feel that they're sharing in my success. we purchase as much as we can on the american express open gold card. so we can accumulate as many points as possible. i pass on these points to my employees to go on trips with their families. when my employees are happy, my customers are happy. vo: earn points for the things you're already buying.

call 1-800-now-open to find out how the gold card can serve your business. ♪ as a small business owner, i'm always looking for that competitive advantage. here at "your business" we know that's why you watch us. to give you actionable advice that will help you do the same. one of the most important skills to have is the ability to negotiate with customers, clients and vendors. and while some people, of course, are natural-born negotiators, many of us aren't. it is tricky, it can get uncomfortable, and it can get contentious. but it's something you could learn how to do better. so i went to new york city's fulton fish market, where

haggling over the price of fish is considered a fine art. ♪ >> $1.85. >> i'm coming in here on admittedly know very little about fish. >> right. >> i'm here with a mission because i have to buy some fish, what would i do? >> there are four things. number one, you must know your product. whether it's fish, or stocks, you have to know the kind of commodity that you're dealing with. in this case you have to know the quality, the size, the species. you can't look at a red snapper and say how much is that blue fish. that's not a good thing. >> because they will take you for someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. >> they will take you for somebody who just fell off a banana boat and you have no time for that. >> so do your research. >> the second thing is you have to know yourself. you have to exude confidence. you have to be firm when you can, and not firm when you need to be. >> that's a good negotiator. >> the third thing you have to do is know the person that

you're buying from. you have to know if he's -- has a lot of product. if he's got a little product. if he's sitting on a lot, and you know he's sitting on a lot he's going to probably be a lower price than somebody else. >> you said know the person you're negotiating with. >> yes. >> and you're talking about knowing their supplies. supply and demand. what about knowing them as a person. is that helpful? >> with any business you know the person, you know the guy on a daily basis, you're going to probably get a better price than somebody else. because he likes you. >> when you go to a negotiation, do you have a number in the back of your mind saying, i am willing to pay or sell at "x"? >> yes. >> not willing to go over or under? and you'll get to that. >> you don't want to lose money. there are costs. you want to make as much money for your company as possible. so you're going to try and maintain a certain number. >> how do you decide when to be tough, and when to be nice? >> you bat those hazel eyes at me you're going to get away with it once. twice, maybe. three times, it's not going to work. you got to depend on knowledge.

you really have to depend on knowledge. >> but nice. i wasn't referring to flirting. but nice, i'm saying how do you know, how do you know when you should be sort of -- drive a hard bargain. >> again, it has to do with availability. how much product is around and how many people want it. it's supply and demand. if everybody wants it, the price will stay moderate. if there's not a lot of supply, the price is going to stay high. there's a fourth thing that i didn't mention yet. >> which is? >> one second. you have to fit in. you will not get anywhere dressed like that. >> okay. see you in a second. let me put this on. >> love the look. >> much better. >> clipboard. nobody can be a purchaser without a clipboard.

all right? >> all right. >> hold it close to you like this so no one can actually see your business. >> is there anything on this clipboard? >> absolutely not. and a pencil. you have to have a pencil. know the seller. these guys are met fans. i brought you a mets hat. makes you fit in and they will like you right off the bat. >> all right. >> bobby, nice to meet you. >> know your product. >> how much is the jumbo? >> jumbo for $5.50. the large are $4.50. >> those are from jersey. >> know yourself. >> is this your best price? >> that's my best price for the best quality. i have less quality for cheaper. >> i am not interested in any less quality. >> know how high or low you can go. >> one box for my best box of fish is $4.50.

itis the best i can do. >> i will be back a lot. let's just make a deal. this is the beginning of doing business, and not the end. >> in good faith, i will charge you $4.40 and hopefully you'll come back. >> i am looking for $4. >> cannot do it. cannot do it. >> what if we split the difference, between $4.40 and $4. >> you got a deal. hopefully i'll see you next week. >> we often talk about passion fueling sbrurial efforts. sometimes that's not enough. earlier this year i travelled to colorado to meet a man that had to support a secondary business and surprised himself when he discovered how they know support each other. ♪ if dan could choose one thing to do for the rest of his life, it would be this.

>> it's almost a spiritual connection. >> this is the way he has felt since 1970. when his love of dogsledding compelled him to start his company, a business which takes people on dogsledding rides. >> good boy, jack. good boy. >> opening the business was a dream come true. but even before he hung up his shingle, he knew the sledding would not pay for itself. >> the restaurant came by as a financial support system for the dogs. >> it sounds crazy. support one risky business, dogsledding, with another risky business, the restaurant that's what he did. >> i was too young and dumb to know better and i had a lot of energy. >> a lot of energy is what it took. dan not only created the idea for the restaurant, he actually built it for himself. >> a lot of these logs were put

in not only by myself, but a lot of help along the way from other people. a lot of love went into this place. >> that was all part of the plan. he could have supported the sledding doing something else, but that would have also been somewhere else. >> a restaurant made sense, because i could do it here with the dogs. >> soon after it opened, the restaurant started to do what it was meant to do, generate cash. >> the restaurant was highly successful, especially financially. >> dan attributes the success of the restaurant partly to the beautiful location and the menu which features local game, but he says it's in large part because of the dogs. >> there's a relationship between the two, and it's magical, if you will. >> and the two businesses quickly became dependant on each other. not just financially, but as dan's number two says, for marketing as well. >> could the restaurant exist without the dogs, and could the dogs exist without the restaurant?

>> they could, but it would be a much smaller scaled operation. you would not run as many sleds as we run and like wise, if we didn't have the dog operation and just the restaurant we wouldn't compete and market at a much different level than we do currently. >> the customers eating at the restaurant confirm the suspicion. >> we came yesterday to visit with the kennels with her son and my brother, and we just thought it was amazing and we had to come back today and experience it ourselves. >> but, the issue with two businesses tied at the hip is when one gets bad press, so does the other. charges of animal mistreatment has been voiced on various occasions. state licensing agencies and police investigations have consistently upheld the practices they found at the company. there are still some people who are angry and the anger is directed toward their name.

dan always believed the companies do better together and alone. >> it's an operation that works well together, if we just separated one from the other. that's an unknown i don't care to find out about. >> and it's the combination that attracts so many guests. thomas is the manager of an upscale hotel a few miles away. >> when you tell me that your dog teams go out to dinner on you, that's the olympics of dogsledding. >> that's the ultimate challenge. >> though he has the choice of recommending dozens of restaurants, he often sends people to the restaurant for a meal and dog sledding ride. it's something they can't get anywhere else. >>itis not manmade. it's a -- it's a destination in itself. it's an experience, and genuine. >> the authenticity comes from the true love of dogs. talk about the restaurant and he's all business. get him out on the sled, and everything he says clearly comes from the heart.

>> this is where i find true freedom. >> which is why it was particularly gratifying for dan when in the 1990s a funny thing started to happen. >> i had to scratch my head quite a bit when it started to happen. >> suddenly the dogs started to support the restaurant. after many years of the restaurant providing cash for the sledding, things turned the other way. but dan said though he loves the dogs best, he would never close the restaurant. >> to separate that, it either separates two businesses out or get rid of one it will hurt the other one, so that's why we're keeping them. >> one couldn't exist without the other. >> taking the long view of the business, dan says he knows there's a cycle, and at one point the restaurant megan support the dogs, and that's okay with him as long as he gets to keep doing what he loves best. >> come on, jack, and brody. good dog. good dog. ♪

to learn more about today's show, just click on our website. it's openforum.com/yourbusiness. you will find all of today's segments plus more information to help your business grow. and don't forget to become a fan of the show on facebook. we love getting your feedback. and follow us on twitter. next week, copy rights, patents, and trade marks. >> you have to pick and choose your trademarks carefully. if you name your company something, that's a good thing to trademark because that's your identity. >> we devote our entire show to explaining what the difference is are between copy rights and trade marks and why it's important you protect your brand. until then, i'm j.j. ramberg. remember, we make "your business" our business. shazi: seven years ago, i had this idea.

to make baby food the way moms would. happybaby strives to make the best organic baby food. in a business like ours, personal connections are so important. we use our american express open gold card to further those connections. last year we took dozens of trips using membership rewards points to meet with farmers that grow our sweet potatoes and merchants that sell our product. vo: get the card built for business spending. call 1-800-now-open to find out how the gold card can serve your business.