republican campaign will be all about. it will be people being asked to believe what has been good for the romneys will be good for you. vote the way they ask you and you will be as well off as them. or something like it. that is "hardball" for now. the ed show starts right now. good evening americans, welcome to the ed show, tonight from new york. mitt romney has taken a victorly lap, opponents are calling him a culture capitalist. rick perry get your own material, i coined that term. this is the ed show, let's get to work. >> you know, i think it's about envy, i think it's about class warfair. >> the king of bain is lashing out at the critics of vulture capitalism. >> cash rampage would slash jobs in every state in the country. >> today a pro-gingrich super pac has their anti-romney movie. the man behind the film is here

tonight. the chaos in carolina has begun. >> we need to have more venture capitalism going on in america and less vulture capitalism. >> all the latest from the palmetto state with gri oifrn editor, joy-an reid, jonathan alter and msnbc political analyst richard wolffe. the first lady is pushing back on critics depicting her as an angry black woman frnl. >> i just try to be me and my hope that is overtime, people get to know me. >> and mitt romney's tax plan will raise taxes on the poor, but his man in new hampshire got angry with me when i pointed it out. >> there is a technical term for that, a crock of crap. >> tonight, ezra klein of the washington post will sent governor sununu straight. good evening folks, thanks for watching tonight. we have a frat fight breaking out in the republican party, don't we? one day after mitt romney won

the new hampshire primary, a super pac called winning our future released a 28 minute documentally called "when mitt romney came to town." >> romney netted 230% profit for romney and his investors. the deal left behind a trail of wreckage. >> i'm convinced if you want to create jobs, it helps to have a job. i've had jobs. i'll use that experience to help america. >> they never, no matter how much -- no matter how much they already had, they should never get enough money. >> mitt romney and bain saw 900% return on their investment. romney and bain's profits at the expense of 15,000 jobs was described by the boston herald as disgusting.

>> i should mention the parent company is the co-owner of the weather capital with bain company. the movie is airing in south carolina in ads. the tea party senator jim demint said romney will probably win the state. but when he gets to south carolina he will be seeing more tv ads attacking him than he has ever seen before. billionaire casino owner sheldon adelson donated to the campaign, also attacking romney's stance on abortion. >> romney appointed a pro abortion judge, expanded access to abortion pills, failed to put the pro life group on the same board. romney signed government-mandated health care with d taxpayer funded abortion. >> it's getting good. gingrich clarified his position on capitalism to chuck todd, but pulled no punches while

portraying romney as a corporate raider. >> i'm middle class, my dad was an army officer. i have middle class values, i find powerful, rich people playing games very distasteful. >> turn on the lights, the party is not over, it's just getting started. you know what? i just cannot get away from this graph, can i? here's why gingrich attacks are effective by calling mitt romney a vulture capitalist. gingrich is putting a face on the red line that we show you on this program all the time. we should start calling this i guest well the vulture chart. there they are right there. have you ever seen vultures eat? seriously. they are the meanest son of a guns in the wild. when they see a carcass and want to eat on it, they eat and hang

around and they don't leave until they are finished, get everything they possibly want, and then they leave. sound familiar? they feed on these folks down here on the blue line. republicans are worried about gingrich and other candidates attacking romney over vulture capitalism because basically it's the truth. you will never convince me, americans, that mitt romney was the head of bain capital because he wanted to create as many jobs as he possibly could. like the president of the united states. i believe that every time mitt romney went into a company, he had one thing in mind and that was making a boat load of money and he didn't care who he ran over. it's a culture. we have seen this on the campaign trail. he likes to fire people. where does that come from? that is who he is. when you talk about the truth, behind republican policies, republicans, you know what they do, they get nervous because they know it's the truth. they don't want anybody knowing this is one of their virtues. romney is so nervous he has gone

so far to compare his time at bain capital to the automobile industry loan under the obamaed a administration. >> in a general election i will point out the president that took the reins of general motors, chrysler, laid off thousands of workers to try to save the business. >> you got to be kidding me, mitt. you're comparing what you did at bain capital to the operation of the president of the united states when he is trying to save jobs and save an industry? don't you remember those guys from the automobile industry flying to washington in their jets and the media jumped all over them and obama told them to go back to detroit and get their act together and show up with a game plan that is going to work in a new industry standard? and i do believe, mitt, the unions took a haircut, they dropped wages, they dropped health care, pension, they took cuts across the board because they wanted to make the industry work. and you know what, president

barack obama did not profit on that the way you profited on bankrupting companies. mitt romney doesn't get it. he doesn't get it because actually he believes that the american people are just jealous of rich people. listen to what he told matt l lauer. >> anyone with questions about the distribution of wealth and power in this country is envious, is this about jealousy or fairness? >> i think it's about envy, class warfair. >> are there no fair questions about distribution of wealth without being seen as envy, though? >> you know, i think it's fine to talk about those things in quiet rooms and discussions about tax policy and the like. >> in quiet rooms? you folks down here on the blue line, be quiet, go behind closed doors, don't say anything about those vultures up on top who have seen their income go up

over the last 30 years, 340%. don't do that. of course mitt likes quiet rooms and closed doors. held, hell, he doesn't want to show the tax returns. 66% of the country say there is a conflict between the rich and poor. mitt romney doesn't want to talk about it. he said they are filled with envy. what is a fair question for the people down here in the middle chase that haven't seen their wages go up much over the last 30 years, there is any fair discussion for the working folk of america? mitt romney also says people should only talk about income disparity in quiet rooms. over the past three decades, income and equality has gotten worse, for the american worker and mitt romney, he doesn't want to talk about it. does that sound like a guy who wants to lead? he doesn't get it. and he wants to be your president. no wonder the conservatives don't like this guy, because what he is doing, he's showing

the country exactly who he is, do you realize what is happening here? the right wing talkers of america think mitt romney is not conservative enough. but this venture capitalism and this vulture capitalism, which it's turning into because of people like romney, they're out defending that on right wing radio, i mean it pains them to stick up for mitt romney. get your cell phones out. tonight's question, does our country need a vulture capitalist in charge of the economy? text a for yes, b for no, 622639, go to our blog at ed.msnbc..com. i want to ask you, does it bother you at all that mitt romney went overseas to get seed money to start a business in the united states of america, which eventually cut a bunch of jobs? does it bother you at all? took foreign investment to work over american workers. is that true? we'll have that story tomorrow night. joining me now is rick

tyler, tore near newt gingrich campaign spokesman and senior advisor to winning our future, which is a pro newt gingrich super pac. great to have you with us tonight, sir, appreciate it. >> i'm glad to be here you're on fire. >> i'm going to put left, right, blue, green, center, let's throw it out and talk about the facts. you have put together a documentary that is 26, 28 minutes long. i've seen most of it. is this factual, is this a factual piece of material that you've put together? >> let me give you a little background. jason mees put this movie together, a talented film maker, it is as good a quality as i've seen. when i first learned about it i was told it was good quality, you always -- in campaign someone has the silver bullet that will be the end of it and never turns out to be true.

this is as close to a silver bullet, tells a compelling story, and then the question is is it true, and we have the documentation and it's rock solid. >> rock solid, so any line in that documentary is completely the truth, that it is -- you've backed it up. >> i have citations. >> is there proof that bain capital, this is a key question, because i think americans want to know this. is there proof bain capital under mitt romney went in and made profit from companies when they shortchanged their pension funds? in other words did they steal the pension funs and call it profit in the general fund, did they go after peoples retirement? i need to know that. >> right here in south carolina there is a company called gsi, made steel, mitt romney and bain bought that company, they liquidated it, eliminated the

jobs, there was a pension in that company and that pension got shorted, and the federal government had to bail out the pension so taxpayer money made up the difference in the pension and bain capital made a profit of tens of millions of dollars in that deal. >> the pension the workers had ended up getting thrown off on the pension benefit guarantee corporation, which of course is the federal government, and the american taxpayers, bailing out the folks who worked in industries that have failed, is that correct? >> that's correct. >> so newt --. >> that, by the way, is not in the movie. there is four case studies in the movie, there is dbi, and other companies, they illustrate this type of behavior. h let me back out, in the capitalist system -- it's

interesting since i brought this up, let me give you a background story. we acquired the film and i bought a coach ticket to new hampshire, got a lousy hotel room for a week. we didn't run a single ad, no one has seen the movie the arrogance of the romney campaign you would think that by criticizing him and holding him to account, which is my central premise, he said he's a job creator. i'm holding him account. you would think i'm attacking the foundation of capitalism. the arrogance of the way they reacted to this is really mind boggling and you just played a series of clips in which mitt romney under pressure from a super pac that hadn't spent any money. imagine his responses when he really is under pressure. the republican party should be paying close attention that mitt romney under pressure is not very good on his feet and mitt romney's record and look, we've made disagree, he claims he was

ran as governor, he was pro-choice, now he's pro-life. he said he was for the strictest gun laws in the united states in massachusetts, where possession of a handgun is a year in jail, he supported that --. >> he's clearly --. >> of course, that is what all i'm saying is that he says i created jobs. show me. because capitalism works in this way. they bring out all these economists to debate with me. i don't want to have an economic argument, i'm just saying he created jobs, he didn't. >> i just want the right wing talkers of america, we know who they are, go on the air tomorrow and do this story, and ask the american people the conservative listeners, if they think it's fair that mitt romney took millions and threw the retirement off on the guarantee corporation, is that the capitalism we want coming out of the white house if by chance he

gets the nomination and were to win the white house? rick tyler we'll bring you back on the program i'm anxious to see how this plays in south carolina. the working folk of america, they know the real story about how this guy operates, you're not going to want him near pennsylvania avenue. remember, answer tonight's question, at the bottom of the screen, share thoughts on twitter #edshow. conservatives don't think mitt romney is extreme enough for the republican party. but his policies tell a different story. katrina van deden heuvel will t how right wing he is. the south carolina primary is ten days away, could be the last chance to stop the mitt-ster. our panel weighs in on that. we're coming right back. liminate tough cooking odors. [ moderator ] take a deep breath and then tell me what you smell. wow. it takes you kinda to like an island. like a paradise. [ sniffs ] vanilla. [ sniffs ] i smell caramel, like a caramel candy.

[ moderator ] go ahead and take your blindfold off. ah man. ♪ [ laughs ] wow man! [ laughs ] [ male announcer ] eliminate tough odors with febreze air effects so you can breathe happy guaranteed. ♪ one chance to hunt down the right insurance at the right price. the "name your price" tool, only from progressive. ready, aim, save!

grrr! ooh, i forgot my phone! the "name your price" tool. now available on your phone. get a free quote today. ♪ more and more folks are trying out snapshot from progressive. a totally different way to save on car insurance. the better you drive, the more you can save. no wonder snapshot's catching on. plug into the savings you deserve with snapshot from progressive. coming up on the ed show, mitt has gone far right on the campaign trial, will he be a far right president? katrina vanden heuvel joins me

on that. 2% tim pawlenty told me he needs a little help get to sleep. i've got a bedtime story for the former governor of minnesota, and now of course surrogate for mitt romney. that is coming up in psycho talk. john sununu calls the analysis of mitt romney's tax plan a crock of crap. i'll talk to ezra klein later in the program about that find out if it is. share your thoughts on twitter #edshow. we're right back. ♪

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for watching. mitt romney's opponents want to paint him as a massachusetts liberal. he has become as conservative and extremity as rich santorum or newt gingrich. he made his views clear last night during his victory speech in new hampshire. >> i will make the federal government simpler, smaller and smarter. i will cut cap and balance the federal budget. this president has enacted job-killing regulations, i'll eliminate that. he lost our triple a credit rating, i'll restore it. he passed obama-care, i'll repeal it. he adopted an appeasement strategy. i'll insist on a military so powerful no one would think about challenging it. >> he's until favor of the defense of marriage act, outlaw same sex marriage, he wants to build a fence on the border between the united states and mexico, he doesn't think waterboarding is torture and in december, he got behind paul ryan's plan to cut medicaid,

medicare, spending it by giving it to the sending it off to the states so they can use it as bloc grants. of course the voucher system. romney insisted it wouldn't hurt the beneficiaries. >> you don't think if you cut $700 billion in aid to the states some people will get hurt? >> in the same way by cutting welfare drastically i don't think we hurt the poor. i don't think we will hurt the people that depend on the program for health care. >> no he won't hurt anybody with his economic policies, i want to visit with katrina van den vand heuvel, we're renaming this chart, i don't believe from the tax policy that i have read that mitt romney is talking about the blue line would advanced for. the your thoughts? >> ed, you illustrated the

column i wrote called "extremists in pinstripes" that is mitt romney. i think this is something worth talking about on your show over the next months, how is it that what was once called reactionary is now called moderate? mitt romney is a very reaction extremist candidate on social conservatism, national security and of course he's the champion of the 1% when it comes to economic policy in this country. i think he gets a pass on social conservative because of rick santorum in the race, but as you said in the good set-up, he's opposed to roe v wade, he has robert bourke, a judge passed over by conservatives in congress because he was so reactionary, as his advisor on legal issues.

you would have a fifth to ad to the gang of four, robert, alito, thomas and scalia. >> his new positions, he will say anything to get elected, is there a chance, if he did get elected that he would go in the white house and become moderate, which is the fear of conservatives and that is why the right wing won't get behind him? >> that is a good question. what we've seen with the republican party is the power of the right wing money behind the guy is on the core issues, he will stay social conservative. and on national security, by the way, ed, i think it's important to point he's to the right of gingrich and way to the right of jon huntsman. he has the baggage of the bloody neo-c neo-conservatist behind him. he would add hundreds of millions of dollars to the defense budget.

i think this man is a vessel and vehicle of the chamber of commerce forces. >> what kind of judge do you think he would put on the supreme court? >> someone make it the gang of five. someone who will be one who would invalidate obama's health care plan, which romney has come out to repeal the plan. i think it's important to point out he is to the right of george w. bush as you pointed out in terms of extending the bush tax cuts for the very richest. he is a buccaneer. >> he wants to tax people under $10,000. under $40,000. if you make more than a million dollars, you would see a 5% reduction. this is a tax policy of people putting this --. >> in 2015, those who make a million dollars would see a tax benefit of close to $250,000. he would prey on those the

vulnerable. we talked on the program last week, when he heard of the appointment of someone to protect consumers, veterans and students in the country or labor and working people, he called that the worst kind of chicago-style politics. he wants to cripple regulations which help our -- help those who are the most vulnerable in the system. he calls it the invisible boot of government ed is he having jack london channel his speech writing? what is going on here? >> that is a question we will answer down the road. great work. coming up, we have a very special psycho talk, tim pawlenty told me last night it cures his insomnia, i'm going to help him fall asleep with a bedtime story about his good friend, mitt romney. you won't want to miss it. michelle obama denies tension in the white house, is calling out critics. joy-ann reid, jonathan alter and richard wolffe weigh in, you're

watching the ed show on msnbc. stay with us.

and it's psycho talk tonight, i got a bone to pick with former minnesota governor tim pawlenty. during our coverage of the new hampshire primary last night we interviewed the romney supporter and failed presidential candidate. we were talking about whether mitt romney was a vulture capitalist, when t-paw insulted

my show. >> i watched your shoes last night, i had insomnia, stayed up late, nothing else to do, i had to iron my shirts, nothing else to do so i watched your show. >> well, tonight i'm going to have to cancel psycho talk. i have a bedtime story for you, tim. it's all about your good buddy, mitt romney and his plan for america it's called "goodnight, mitt" this is a wonderful book. ♪ . >> in the great 12 million dollar beach house, there was a telephone and 250 million bucks and a picture of greedy multi-millionaire schmucks on the wall. there were three little capitalists cronies and a bowl full of pious baloney and a

little old lady saying don't privatize social security. good night union, good night jobs, good night clean air, good night public education, good night immigration, good night wall street, good night middle class, good night auto czar, good night dog on the roof of the car. good night, roe v wade, good nightmare range equality, good night to the old lady whispering whispering don't privatize sheel security. good medicaid, good night medicare, good night american dreams everywhere. sweet dreams, t-paw, sleep just as good as your presidential campaign.

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welcome back to the ed show. tonight's play book do or die in south carolina, the strategy is everything, if republicans hope to take down mitt romney. even tea party hero south carolina senator jim demint predicts a romney victory. >> i think romney's gonna win here and i think some of the others who might have had some advantage here have really crossed paths or crossed ways with republicans they criticized free enterprise concepts. i think you might see mitt romney win here, but it's possible that gingrich or santorum might make another run at it here. i just don't know. i know perry has been spending time here but he doesn't seem to be getting a lot of traction and i think after iowa and new hampshire it will be tough. >> newt gingrich's only hope for conservatives to rally around

him. this was gingrich in spartanburg, south carolina today. >> now, the fact is we have to console i date conservatives to beat governor romney. we keep getting told by the establishment you ought to nominate a moderate because they appeal to people in the mid dechl these were folks against reagan in the 80s. >> is it wearing thin with americans, i'm joined by joy-ann reid, managing editor of thegrio, jonathan alter and richard wolffe, political analyst with us tonight. newt gingrich, this guy is attacking romney on multiple fronts, but let's take for instance what he's doing going after him on the bain capital issue. gingrich's super pac has a documentary out there, getting blow back from some republicans.

jonathan, will this strategy backfire? will it work? >> i don't think it will work, for the critics of mitt romney, but it does two very good things for barack obama. the first is that it starts to implant in the minds of the american people that bain capital and what you call vulture capitalism is a legitimate campaign issue moving forward. it's an important debate for the country to have, and newt gingrich and his sugar daddies are kick it off so that is great. the other thing, very quickly, the other thing didn't get much attention is that the backlash against it by the romney people, they are going and they're trying to tell adelson's casino, public company that he runs that it's improper use of money to get behind this kind of thing. if that then becomes a model moving forward, it gives

progressives a way to resist the super pacs an power of big money. when other sugar daddies start to come up with the money, then progressives can go to shareholders and say oh no you don't, there is a price to be paid for you in the court of public opinion and before your shareholders, if you go down this super pac road. that is very important. >> you're counting on people paying attention where the money is coming from. it's important but when you look, joy-ann, about mitt romney in new hampshire, he continued to slide, then he had a big showing with over 39% of the vote. how do you think this is going to go in south carolina? you got high unemployment down there, different dichotomy, how do you think it will play there? so far, mitt romney has won, i don't think 39% is an overwhelming personally when he

was the governor next door. ron paul came close to him. they go to south carolina where unemployment is considerably higher. i don't think it's liberals and democrats and occupy wall street people who believe a camp, a company, a corporation can do bad things. you don't have to be anti-capitalist to believe this company, exporting jobs and this company, laying off workers, is a negative -- a bad thing and bad for the american workers. i think republicans agree with that, too. i think the narrative that mitt romney's company was a vul detu capitalist, and forced him to this position where it's parroting rush limbaugh, don't hate me because i'm rich, don't think it stops him from winning among republican voters in south carolina. >> richard, 60% of the voters in south carolina are evangelical christians, and gingrich is hitting them hard on the abortion issue. the ad is brutal.

we have two definitely contrasting comments from mitt romney on his position on this. is this going to have a big effect on the electorate? >> south carolina is a different place. i have to tell you i was with george w. bush in 2000 when he went down from new hampshire, went to bob jones university and of course he took apart john mccain right there, yes evangelical voters are huge force in republican politics. there is a reason mike huckabee was so successful across that sweep of the old south and that is because he struck some of the same tones that a lot of these candidates are. rick perry talked about vulture capitalism, not just people on the left. there is a strain of southern republican politics that does speak to those issues. the problem, as it has been through the early states, evangelical vote, economic populous vote, will be split. anti-romney vote is split. until one of the head-strong, ego driven conservatives drops

out, they will kill each other. >> joy-ann reid, richard, jonathan, we have a lot to talk about. michelle obama responds for a book's portray al as her as first lady and calls out her critics, stay with us. al as her first lady and calls out her critics, stay with us.

up next, michelle obama responds to reports of tension between her and white house aides, don't forget to tweet us using #edshow, stay tuned, we're right back. where sleepless nights yield to restful sleep. and lunesta can help you get there, like it has for so many people before. when taking lunesta, don't drive or operate machinery until you feel fully awake. walking, eating, driving, or engaging in other activities while asleep, without remembering it the next day, have been reported. abnormal behaviors may include aggressiveness, agitation, hallucinations or confusion. in depressed patients, worsening of depression,

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more and more folks are trying out snapshot from progressive. a totally different way to save on car insurance. the better you drive, the more you can save. no wonder snapshot's catching on. plug into the savings you deserve with snapshot from progressive. who can write about how i feel? who? what third person can tell me how i feel? or anybody for that matter. >> that was first lady michelle obama, brushing off a new book's portrayal of her role as first la lady. written by jody kanter, suggests

mrs. obama's strong opinions have caused tension in the white house. the first lady says she hasn't read the book but denies clashing with the president's former chief of staff rahm emanuel and robert gibbs. mrs. obama called out her critics, and the stereotype has been following her since the 2008 campaign. >> i guess it's more interesting to imagine this conflicted situation here and a strong woman but that's been an image that people have tried to paint of me since the day barack announced i'm some angry black woman. >> where would the first lady get such an idea like that? take a look. >> is there something about michelle obama has she been more vocal on policiepolicies? >> she has a history of griping, it's not what people want to hear. >> her instinct blame america, i'm the victim. >> i think america should watch

out, though, the better half of the white house is being let loose on the campaign trail. >> she was in reverend wright's church for 20 years. closer to reverend wright than barack obama was. >> you don't think she is snotty? >> i think she is fine. >> really? mrs. arugula. >> you can't say that is a little uppity? >> what kind of a self-centered arrogant, controlling character disorder are we dealing with? >> we didn't hear this about laura bush. >> let's bring in contributor joy-ann reid, jonathan alter and richard wolffe, joy-ann, why is she responding to this? >> conservatives need to kill that word from the lexicon, i think what you're hearing from michelle obama is three years of

pent up frustration for the way she was portrayed from 2007, she was caricatured, she doesn't love her country, hates white people, angry. nothing about michelle obama demonstrated this at all. she is supportive of the president, you never saw her weigh in on policy. the most polliicy thing she has done is work with military families. i don't think this book necessarily portrayed her that way from my understanding of it but i think you're hearing her frustration. >> was there friction in the white house? >> not really. the book doesn't actually depict very much tension. there is tension between robert gi gibbs and valerie jarrett. it's a positive book, and what she is doing is drawing attention to the depiction that didn't even exist in the book, not smart.

>> i don't think she has to explain her relationship with the president. >> she said this is my husband, what i did like about the interview she emphasized she is talking about her husband. for her that is what the relationship is. >> richard, why does the right wing have a hatred for the woman? >> you had it in the clips, which were in most cases completely unfactual, erroneous, why were they erroneous? they are projecting things then a candidate in some cases, have said, assuming mrs. obama had either been there or said that or done that, she didn't mention arugula. she wasn't a member of trinity, it was her husband. so, there is conflation she is an easy target, an easy narrative to say, everything wrong with him is really to do with the wife. we often do that with political couples easier with this woman,

strong, confident, accomplished and having to play a secondary role it's unusual. >> a great ride for three years, and it looks a little bit self-pitying to indicate to the contrary, and this is puzzling to me. it's not as if the right wing has been beating up on her with great effect for the last three years. they did during the campaign, most of those clips are old. and if it ain't broke, don't fix it the relationship wasn't broken. >> she was better off to ignore it? >> absolutely. >> will this make her more effective on the campaign trail? >> yeah, i think a lot of of people have wondered when michelle obama would react to it. i think i agree that over the last year i would say michelle obama has image has softened, you have seen focus on style and working with children and things she has done in terms of trying to get children to be of a healthy weight. >> which they have mocked.

>> i have to be honest she wouldn't be human if she didn't have a human reaction, constant tirades from the right. >> will she hall have a different role? >> she is great at making the sale. i have to say i don't think she was self-pitying here. if you get asked a question how she will portray, she will respond. a lot of things projected on them, some by people in the white house. there is a device the boss wants this or his wife wants that, you never really know. it's hard for writers to know unless they go to them directly and say did you want this, did you say this, if you don't get that interview opportunity, you cannot answer the question. >> thank you for joining us tonight. in the big finish tonight, john sununu says an analysis of romney's tax plan is a crock of crap. well, we'll ask ezra klein if that crock of crap is just that.

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i asked does our country need a vulture capitalist in charge of the economy? 3% said yes. 95% of you said no. coming up the tax policy center says mitt romney's tax plan will raise middle class taxes. john sununu says that that analysis his words, not mine, is crap. who has it right? ezra klein joins us, stay with us.

welcome back to the ed show the big finish tonight i'm quoting here, it's a crock of crap. this is what -- that is what former new hampshire governor john sununu said when i asked him a question about how mitt romney would give another huge tax break to the wealthiest americans. here it is. >> according to the tax policy center, the gentleman who is projected to win tonight in new hampshire, mitt romney, he would raise taxes on people in this country making $40,000 or less and a millionaire's taxes would drop by 5%. >> where did that come from? >> according to the tax policy center, that went through his tax policy and they came out and said that romney's tax plan

would increase taxes for families making less than $40,000, and millionaire will see his taxes drop by almost 5%. do you think that --. >> that is kind of strange, i'm sorry. >> go ahead, sir. >> i think that is kind of strange when the governor has made it clear he's not cutting taxes on the upper brackets, that he is cutting taxes on the hard-earning taxpayers in the middle and that he is committed to fa flattening or lowering taxes across the board. with all due respect to that organization, there is a technical term for that, it's a crock of crap. >> let ee turn to msnbc policy analyst and washington post columnist ezra klein. well, is it a crock of crap or is the premise of the question accurate? >> the romney campaign has to sell surrogates what is in the tax plan. it's not doing magic here. the plan is a couple components,

extend bush tax cuts, cuts capital gains for people make $250,000. he cuts the corporate tax rate from 35% to 25%, gets rid of the estate tax. the last two, the corrate tax rate and he is state tax benefit the rich hugely and so when you ad up the bush cuts and romney cuts, people making more than one million dollars they are making 50% of the benefit, the others are getting 28%. very tilted for upper income americans. >> it's far more aggressive than what the bush team had on the table. >> it's, george w. bush but more so. it's interesting because it's more moderate than anything any of the other republicans have, more moderate than huntsman, santorum, gingrich, in this group, he's a moderate but it's more extreme than bush did.

you have to have how it's getting paid for. when bush offered up the tax we had a surplus, the way you were paying for, paying down a surplus. we have deficits now, this tax cut and romney team said this, will have to come out of cuts to government spending. government spending obviously tends to benefit low income americans and middle income americans, you're transferring a bunch of money from the bottom half of the income distribution to pay for the top half, 20, 10 and 1%. not just bush but more so in the raw numbers on the tax cut side, given how you pay for it it's more aggressive than it looks. >> ezra, let's say we were to implement the tax plan, what kind of cuts would we have to make to the budget to pencil out? >> bush's tax cuts were $4 trillion or ten years romney's 2-3. you're talking about cuts that need to equal to $7 trillion to

pay for the tax cuts. those are big. vast, huge cuts to entitlements, social security, medicare, there is not money for that, you have to start hacking in the big --. >> is it true he would have people making under $10,000 a year also pay tax? >> a bit more complicated. there is stimulus provisions that obama passed expanded earned income tax credit, expanded child tax credit. mitt romney doesn't extend those. they expire and low income pay more. whether or not you blame mitt romney for that is a judgment call. but obviously he could have crafted a plan to give more benefits to low income people. on the other hand these are not things he specifically is changing in law. >> ezra klein, always a pleasure. the question was spot-on and the answer was incorrect, as you said at the top of this, the romney campaign has to get their surrogates all on the same pain when it comes to